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hashirama's baby-momma vs the demon shark

"Hmph, a thousand years too young to beat Mito Uzumaki,"

Mito activates Kyuubi Chakra Mode and creates four clones.

http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g386/psychogundam1/kabuto/th_suiton_daibakushuhi_shoha1.jpg http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g386/psychogundam1/kabuto/th_suiton_daibakushuhi_shoha2.jpg

kisame doesn't have to absorb any chackra this time, just keep close

i guess he lasts....2-3 minutes of that

(Aw, we're not going to RP it out?)

That one still requires hitting And two-to-three minutes assumes Kisame'll last that long ^^

Four clones leap in and rip him limb from limb. The absorption limit of Kisame isn't enough to stop them.

So is anyone allowed to post here or not?

I have a feeling this will devolve into a heated argument over Mito and Kisame will slowly fade from existence...

Originally posted by Q99
(Aw, we're not going to RP it out?)

That one still requires hitting And two-to-three minutes assumes Kisame'll last that long ^^

Four clones leap in and rip him limb from limb. The absorption limit of Kisame isn't enough to stop them. nope, kisame just lets her drown


Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
So is anyone allowed to post here or not?

I have a feeling this will devolve into a heated argument over Mito and Kisame will slowly fade from existence... go ahead, a real battlezone would be a mockery anyway, mito has no feats

Originally posted by psycho gundam
nope, kisame just lets her drown

You can't just say "Nope." What's preventing her from ripping the shark form limb from limb?


It's also trivial to escape from the water bubble- one of the clones just throws the real one out.



She has known abilities, and you just cover your ears and go 'lalala' whenever they're brought up.



If you want to do a battlezone, do it right. You're not even providing arguments.

Originally posted by Q99
You can't just say "Nope." What's preventing her from ripping the shark form limb from limb?


It's also trivial to escape from the water bubble- one of the clones just throws the real one out.



She has known abilities, and you just cover your ears and go 'lalala' whenever they're brought up. what abilities?

anyway, kisame can just taunt her within the water dome for a few minutes without interacting with her ftw

Originally posted by psycho gundam
what abilities?

Kyuubi chakra mode. I didn't realize you couldn't read.




Uh, how is that a win? She stays outside of it/stands on top of it, he wastes chakra, it eventually collapses, she kills him.

That or she swarms him while in it, attacking with too much for him to absorb, rips him limb from limb, maybe slaps a seal on him to paralyze him while doing so, and it collapses when he dies.

Kyuubi chakra mode is just too strong for even Kisame to beat.

who said anything about absorption? don't strawman my dog in this fight

anyway, he strictly keeps her within the dome ftw. not only is the dome extremely hard to avoid, but it centers around kisame so...deal

i really want to see some feat bruh, help me understand her vast combat arsenal http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g386/psychogundam1/gifs/2u8uryw.gif

Uh, I mentioned *multiple* ways of 'dealing'. Either have a clone throw her out, escaping the dome, or kill Kisame.



According to This, She has this power.

Ta da.

It's been pointed out to you several times, you're just ignoring it. If you can't argue, merely resorting to ignoring what we do know.

this is what she can do according to that same source:

"Not much is known about her fighting skills, but Kushina hailed her as a powerful kunoichi. She was proficient enough with fūinjutsu to seal the Nine-Tails within herself. Also, due to being a member of the Uzumaki clan, Mito had an exceptionally long life. Like Naruto, Mito also had the ability to sense negative emotions due to her control over the Nine-Tails."

'Control over the Nine-Tails'. It's an ability that comes from high-level control of the Kyuubi.

you trying to say she has bijuu-dama and rasen shuriken too?

Nope, we know she doesn't have rasenshuriken (Naruto being the inventor and all), and one can have Kyuubi Chakra Mode without biju-ball. Heck, given Kyuubi's attitude, she probably doesn't.

We also know she was very skilled with seals, which in my opinion is a better skill than Rasenshuriken. Kyuubi claws are fairly destructive on their own. Whereas being very good at fuinjutsu allows for several neato kinds of abilities.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
We also know she was very skilled with seals, which in my opinion is a better skill than Rasenshuriken. Kyuubi claws are fairly destructive on their own.

Yea, and Naruto learned to master them within his first *day or two* of having the mode.




Four Violet Flames Battle Encampment done solo?

Certainly a possibility. Would be a nice tech to have for support and defense.

I was actually thinking more like the seal Danzo used on Sasuke. That was a fairly nifty technique.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Certainly a possibility. Would be a nice tech to have for support and defense.

I was actually thinking more like the seal Danzo used on Sasuke. That was a fairly nifty technique.

Yea, and based on a known Uzumaki technique at that.

Mito gets a hand on someone and they're paralyzed.

huge reach, but at least you're seeing the light.

the uzumaki clan excelled at seals, even the legacy left to kushina centered around maintaining a seal coupled with her having special chackra that subdues bijuu. how this parlays into sheer fighting ability baffles me. at best she has what you just mentioned but that's nothing to write home about, she's not even dressed in battle attire.

kisame's shark haduken. end

Originally posted by psycho gundam

the uzumaki clan excelled at seals, even the legacy left to kushina centered around maintaining a seal coupled with her having special chackra that subdues bijuu. how this parlays into sheer fighting ability baffles me. at best she has what you just mentioned but that's nothing to write home about, she's not even dressed in battle attire.

Kyuubi chakra mode grants insane physical prowess similar to that of Raikage, even the clones.

*Yawn* "I don't want to consider an ability so I'll pretend it's not there," isn't an argument, and your pretending not to hear people explain stuff to you is just sad.




Has to hit, has to get it off.

As far as being dressed in battle attire goes....

Tsunade fights in heels. Danzo fights in robes that should get in the way after a while. And Sai fights in a shirt that leaves his gut as a big target. Among others....like Naruto...and his jumpsuit.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
As far as being dressed in battle attire goes....

Tsunade fights in heels. Danzo fights in robes that should get in the way after a while. And Sai fights in a shirt that leaves his gut as a big target. Among others....like Naruto...and his jumpsuit.

Akatsuki fights in big cloaks, Sasuke fights with a shirt he had to take off to use his 2nd stage cursed seal, and some chunin literally fights with bandages covering *both* eyes

Now that I think about it.....Lee and Guy probably fight in the best attire for battle. haermm

Good lord, so, now people think Mito is above Killer Bee? That is a lot of credit to give someone with like a few panels to her name.

This was originally thought to be some kind of battlezone thing apparently.

And I don't really consider her above Bee. Above Kisame, who just happens to be a good match up for someone like Bee. Anyone with speed comparable to A though would be a bad match up for someone like Kisame.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Good lord, so, now people think Mito is above Killer Bee? That is a lot of credit to give someone with like a few panels to her name.

Not exactly. Bee has biju ball when she almost certainly doesn't. And, IMO, Bee could've fought Kisame a lot smarter and won pretty solidly, if he used a less chakra-heavy method.

We have seen that having control of the Kyuubi's chakra does make one a beast in direct combat.


Also, number of panels = power is a weird connection to make. The Sage doesn't exactly have a lot either If all we know about someone is one super-strong ability, then yes, we rank them high!

Which reminds me, you never actually gave the Sage a ranking did you?

Yes, this is true. In his case because it's hard to guess the *upper* bounds! SS+, SSS-, SSS, would all be reasonable.

I certainly wouldn't think to argue he's *weak* due to his lack of page time ^^

I think SSS would work nicely. Dun really need the + or - there. That level would probably be God in the Naruto verse....

Jashin can great immortality. His rank?

Originally posted by Q99
I certainly wouldn't think to argue he's *weak* due to his lack of page time ^^

comparing the Sage to Mito is ridiculous just because both lack page time...

the Sage actually has feats, which while few, are enough to cement his status, reputation, and legacy...

the same can not be said of Mito...

Bee has speed on par with A, and is in fact greater than A... At base.

The only difference between Bee and Mito is that based on feats, Bee is much more powerful.

Comparing the Sage to Mito is ridiculous. Mito wouldn't stand a chance against the veritable God of the Naruto verse.

However, his feats come from things Tobi has said. Which is where the information that Mito possess the same mode as Naruto comes from.

Naruto's mode itself is what puts him in S+. Mito had an even stronger Kyuubi sealed in her and is implied to have that same mode.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Bee has speed on par with A, and is in fact greater than A... At base.

The only difference between Bee and Mito is that based on feats, Bee is much more powerful.

?

A calls himself the fastest shinobi alive. Bee doesn't disagree with this. Bee, in Bijuu mode(version 1 anyway), was not fast enough to hit Sasuke without a surprise attack(or his unorthodox sword fighting methods). A outright blitzed him.

Where has Bee ever outran A? mmm

the blurb about mito just points out her ability to sense evil, and at best extrapolate some of naruto's enhanced physical traits. the sage on the other hand created everything in the manga. the foreseeable end goal of the main badguy is to become on par with the sage. the most powerful exhibitions of power in the manga are cute compared to the things the sage was said to have done, and they were "confirmed" by tobi (he IS a liar though)

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
This was originally thought to be some kind of battlezone thing apparently.

And I don't really consider her above Bee. Above Kisame, who just happens to be a good match up for someone like Bee. Anyone with speed comparable to A though would be a bad match up for someone like Kisame. i chose kisame cause he would be fundamentally handicapped in this fight for obvious reasons, yet there really is no critical loss of effectiveness against this chick.

as for him being in trouble: his water techniques change the landscape to his favor and so far have been 100% successful in doing so, it also allows for more versatility in the forms of water clones and shark missiles. he's nearly if not stronger than base killer bee and has insane damage soak even prior to utilizing samahada for recovery

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Comparing the Sage to Mito is ridiculous. Mito wouldn't stand a chance against the veritable God of the Naruto verse.

Not saying she would Just noting the oddness of the position that some people that "Few pages = must be weak!".




And chakra capacity. In other words, enough to reach the S+ category on it's own.



What? He's the anti-jinchuuriki specialist of the Akatsuki

Putting the anti-jinchuuriki specialist against a jinchuuriki is not much of a handicap to say the least ^^

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
A calls himself the fastest shinobi alive. Bee doesn't disagree with this. Bee, in Bijuu mode(version 1 anyway), was not fast enough to hit Sasuke without a surprise attack(or his unorthodox sword fighting methods). A outright blitzed him.

Where has Bee ever outran A? mmm

Only we then see Bee react to and overpower A when he stops holding back.

A might be faster, but it's not by a signifigant amount.

Originally posted by Q99
What? He's the anti-jinchuuriki specialist of the Akatsuki

Putting the anti-jinchuuriki specialist against a jinchuuriki is not much of a handicap to say the least ^^ well, the fatal flaw of samahada is a problem. i'm not sure if it's the chackra taste of bee or the sheer amount he has that compels the sword to stick with him.

regardless, kisame doesn't need it to take care of her even with the best feats of another applied to her. it's simply not enough added strength/offense to assume she could pose serious harm to kisame of all people: the tank of akatsuki. naruto hasn't shown any real moves with the K-cloak to say he'd steamroll kisame (without rasengan, etc)

Originally posted by NemeBro
Only we then see Bee react to and overpower A when he stops holding back.

A might be faster, but it's not by a signifigant amount.

Reacting to A isn't very hard.

Well I don't see it. Bee is stronger, for sure, but I've never seen A go fullspeed against him.

Of course, Mito has Naruto's mode. Which outran fullspeed A. awesome

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Naruto's mode. Which outran fullspeed A. awesome not entirely

A missed the only clean hit he was going for..barely. naruto could have died before that

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
And I don't really consider her above Bee. Above Kisame, who just happens to be a good match up for someone like Bee.
What? He is a good match up for Bee for the same reason he would be a good match up for Mito. He does better the more chakra his opponent has.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Anyone with speed comparable to A though would be a bad match up for someone like Kisame.
For instance, Killer Bee?

Indeed. A missed because Naruto outran him. vin

Originally posted by King Kandy
What? He is a good match up for Bee for the same reason he would be a good match up for Mito. He does better the more chakra his opponent has.


For instance, Killer Bee?

He is a good match up for her as well. I don't think he'd beat her based on the power of the mode.

Fullspeed A.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
regardless, kisame doesn't need it to take care of her even with the best feats of another applied to her. it's simply not enough added strength/offense to assume she could pose serious harm to kisame of all people: the tank of akatsuki.

Uh, it totally is. Kisame's not all that hard to hurt (though he takes a lot of hurting to stop), Killerbee blew his torso open. The problem is he regenerates and absorbs chakra attacks.

Kakuzu's the armored tank, Kisame's the big ball of hitpoints.



Do a buncha clones, occupy Samehada (just have, say, one of them grab on to that arm), and then he could rip Kisame apart.


The physical stats he has are plenty against Kisame. A, likewise, would do very well against Kisame. Take away Samehada and A'd win for sure, keep Samehada and I'd still give A a good shot.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
He is a good match up for her as well. I don't think he'd beat her based on the power of the mode.

Fullspeed A.
So you are telling me you think the incomplete mode is better than Bee's full power form?

Would be slower than Bee at full power.

Originally posted by King Kandy
So you are telling me you think the incomplete mode is better than Bee's full power form?

Would be slower than Bee at full power.

Well based on feats, yeah. The only thing that puts Bee's full power above the mode Naruto has is the Bijuu ball and partial transformation(to a degree). And the fact that he doesn't have to worry about losing chakra. Since Bee didn't use the Bijuu ball on Kisame, it's fairly irrelevant.

Bee at full power would be the Hachibi. Which doesn't seem to be very fast. 313

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Reacting to A isn't very hard.

Well I don't see it. Bee is stronger, for sure, but I've never seen A go fullspeed against him.

Of course, Mito has Naruto's mode. Which outran fullspeed A. awesome 1. He's one of the fastest characters in the entire series, of course it is.

Before you say "BUT SASUKE DID IT D: " Sasuke is also one of the fastest characters in the series, and even if Mito has the mode, for all we know she doesn't have the speed Naruto has.

2. Are you implying he held back against Bee? Since by A's own admission, Bee surpassed him... At base.

3. Fallacious logic. Even if she has the mode, it doesn't automatically give her speed greater than A... And Naruto barely outsped A.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Well based on feats, yeah. The only thing that puts Bee's full power above the mode Naruto has is the Bijuu ball and partial transformation(to a degree).

Indeed. Naruto's ability to make clones each at S-class level seems a good deal more useful than turning into a full Biju, with the exception of situations where the Biju Ball's raw destructive power is needed.

It may simply be a difference in the biju's strength.



Also agreed. Still, whatever the precise stats, she's going to be very fast.

Originally posted by NemeBro
1. He's one of the fastest characters in the entire series, of course it is.

Before you say "BUT SASUKE DID IT D: " Sasuke is also one of the fastest characters in the series, and even if Mito has the mode, for all we know she doesn't have the speed Naruto has.

2. Are you implying he held back against Bee? Since by A's own admission, Bee surpassed him... At base.

3. Fallacious logic. Even if she has the mode, it doesn't automatically give her speed greater than A... And Naruto barely outsped A.

1. Kay. Suigetsu did it. Juugo did it. They are not as fast as Sasuke, nor do they have his sharingan advantages. However, A at fullspeed is faster than all 3.

2. His Lariat is better, this is undeniable. However, only 2 shinobi have ever dodged A at his fullspeed. Naruto and Minato.

3. Considering their mode comes from the same source and moving at such speeds is instinctive, not a stretch to assume she has such speed.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
1. Kay. Suigetsu did it. Juugo did it. They are not as fast as Sasuke, nor do they have his sharingan advantages. However, A at fullspeed is faster than all 3.

2. His Lariat is better, this is undeniable. However, only 2 shinobi have ever dodged A at his fullspeed. Naruto and Minato.

3. Considering their mode comes from the same source and moving at such speeds is instinctive, not a stretch to assume she has such speed. 1. They clearly are in fact very fast. Though I can't recall A going all-out against them.

Actually... I can't recall A going all-out against Naruto. Since, you know, he wasn't in his vaguely SSJ-esque form when Naruto dodged his attack.

2. He reacted to A's attack and brought up one of his own. That requires speed.

3. Prove it is instictive? IIRC it's pretty strongly implied the reason for Naruto's insane speed is him descending from Minato. Yellow flash indeed.

Also, for the life of me I can't remember, when is it said that Mito has this mode?

Originally posted by NemeBro
1. They clearly are in fact very fast. Though I can't recall A going all-out against them.

Actually... I can't recall A going all-out against Naruto. Since, you know, he wasn't in his vaguely SSJ-esque form when Naruto dodged his attack.

2. He reacted to A's attack and brought up one of his own. That requires speed.

3. Prove it is instictive? IIRC it's pretty strongly implied the reason for Naruto's insane speed is him descending from Minato. Yellow flash indeed.

Also, for the life of me I can't remember, when is it said that Mito has this mode?

1. I don't recall A ever going at fullspeed against Bee.

Max power, top speed punch. A at his fastest is not as fast as Naruto at his fastest.

2. Not fullspeed. Nor did he go at Bee with the intent to kill. Merely knock him out with his Lariat.

3. Does it immediately. Got stuck cause he is not accustomed to moving at such speeds.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v58/c545/1.html

Naruto senses hostility in that mode, Mito can sense hostility. Since both are Kyuubi hosts and both could sense hostility, Mito certainly had that mode.

Unless she just happens to have the same ability and the same prerequisites for the ability, but got the ability, which is known only to those two and no-one else ever, via a completely different way ^^

That'd be a rather big coincidence, mind you.

If that coincidence were the case though, we would take her off the list. But it isn't likely. And we won't likely get much more out of her in order to judge.

Originally posted by Q99
Yes, this is true. In his case because it's hard to guess the *upper* bounds! SS+, SSS-, SSS, would all be reasonable.

I certainly wouldn't think to argue he's *weak* due to his lack of page time ^^

SSS. It's what I've said from the beginning of this ranking thing, which iirc, I got rolling BTW.

Originally posted by Q99
Uh, it totally is. Kisame's not all that hard to hurt (though he takes a lot of hurting to stop), Killerbee blew his torso open. The problem is he regenerates and absorbs chakra attacks.


And every attack Mito's going to make against Kisame will not be a chakra attack? Outside of sealing jutsu, chakra claws and her physical attacks will all have chakra in them, and will all be absorbed by Samehada.

Really, her sealing jutsu are the only reason I'd think of giving her the win, and even then, we don't know what she can do (outside of possibly using the Yin seal).
We can't say she's as fast as Naruto, we can't say she can use Shadow Clones or would think of using them in that form. Heck, we can't say she had the exact same mode (she would have had something similar to Bee when he first subdued the Hachibi), since Naruto has just the Yang chakra of the Kyuubi, and is clearly linked to the Sage of the Six Paths above & beyond his blood-line. Mito had both Yin & Yang.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
This was originally thought to be some kind of battlezone thing apparently.

And I don't really consider her above Bee. Above Kisame, who just happens to be a good match up for someone like Bee. Anyone with speed comparable to A though would be a bad match up for someone like Kisame.

Assuming Naruto's speed in that mode is entirely due to the Kyuubi's chakra, and not his base speed (which is actually rather fast; see Naruto rescuing Sakura from Sasuke in a lulzy stance) being amped by the chakra as one would expect.

Really, Mito does not have the speed Naruto has, not unless her base speed is faster than Naruto's, which cannot be determined.

She is above Kisame as far as rankings go, but he can beat her.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel


A calls himself the fastest shinobi alive. Bee doesn't disagree with this. Bee, in Bijuu mode(version 1 anyway), was not fast enough to hit Sasuke without a surprise attack(or his unorthodox sword fighting methods). A outright blitzed him.

By circling him. Sasuke had no trouble following his movements until A got behind his visual range.
Usually, they tend to attack from the front. That was the only moment of intelligence we saw from A.

I was thinking of damaging Kisame himself there. No doubt that absorption is his best defense, but attacks that aren't hit by Samehada can do a lot of damage.

My idea on Samehada is simply attack him with multiple clones at once. One holds off Samehada, the others remove the arm holding it from the body.

Also, Samehada has a limit- only 6 tails worth at a time.



We can say she's certainly very fast. While individual users might have some variance in stats, it is certainly the case that KCM itself is what gives the speed; every cloak/tailed form gives a speed boost, really, all the way down to ol' 1-tail cloak mode.

Shadow Clones is an incredibly common jutsu that almost everyone either has or has a counterpart of. Think to use 'em, maybe, but it seems a fairly straitforward tactic.

If she's so strong as implied by the first few posts, then why is she facing a relatively weaker opponent?

Spite thread much?

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Assuming Naruto's speed in that mode is entirely due to the Kyuubi's chakra, and not his base speed (which is actually rather fast; see Naruto rescuing Sakura from Sasuke in a lulzy stance) being amped by the chakra as one would expect.

Really, Mito does not have the speed Naruto has, not unless her base speed is faster than Naruto's, which cannot be determined.

She is above Kisame as far as rankings go, but he can beat her.

By circling him. Sasuke had no trouble following his movements until A got behind his visual range.
Usually, they tend to attack from the front. That was the only moment of intelligence we saw from A.

He only moves at such speed while in that mode. And during the Sasuke example, I was always under the impression he was using the last bit of Sage chakra he had left.

...She has the same source of power he does. If she is not as fast as Naruto, she'd certainly be up there.

Indeed. But he could also lose to her.

Except when he dodged his Amaterasu.
Well...he figured out Minato's FTG.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
He only moves at such speed while in that mode. And during the Sasuke example, I was always under the impression he was using the last bit of Sage chakra he had left.

...She has the same source of power he does. If she is not as fast as Naruto, she'd certainly be up there.

Indeed. But he could also lose to her.

Except when he dodged his Amaterasu.
Well...he figured out Minato's FTG.

I don't think he was. Didn't see any eye markings disappearing.

Both Lee & Guy can use Gates. Doesn't mean they'd be at the same level of speed if they both opened the same number of gates.
Sure, she'd be very fast, but using Naruto's speed (especially his dodging of A's punch) to justify her's is ridiculous.

F*** no...I never said otherwise.

Nah, Sasuke was able to follow him when he was dodging Amaterasu . He just couldn't follow A once A went behind, simply because he couldn't turn his neck that way in time.
He probably had previous intel. The others knew of the markings.

Originally posted by Q99
I was thinking of damaging Kisame himself there. No doubt that absorption is his best defense, but attacks that aren't hit by Samehada can do a lot of damage.

My idea on Samehada is simply attack him with multiple clones at once. One holds off Samehada, the others remove the arm holding it from the body.

Also, Samehada has a limit- only 6 tails worth at a time.

Ahh, okay. In which case, they'd have to be massively powerful attacks. In a weakened state he took a full speed KCM Naruto punch, and while winded, it didn't slow him down.

One holds off Samehada? That clone will just have its chakra absorbed if its not careful, and I'd wager Kisame is a lot stronger than a KCM clone.

Wouldn't really mean much in the grand scheme of things, not when it can hold a lot more than just 6 tails worth of chakra.

Originally posted by Q99
We can say she's certainly very fast. While individual users might have some variance in stats, it is certainly the case that KCM itself is what gives the speed; every cloak/tailed form gives a speed boost, really, all the way down to ol' 1-tail cloak mode.

Shadow Clones is an incredibly common jutsu that almost everyone either has or has a counterpart of. Think to use 'em, maybe, but it seems a fairly straitforward tactic.

Right, there is a massive speed boost, but to what extent we do not know. Naruto is fast in his base mode. Unless you know Mito's base speed, you cannot tell how fast she would be. For all we know, she could be faster, but that cannot be proven. At best, we can say she is very fast, and I'd agree, but KCM Naruto fast? Nah.

A supposedly incredibly common jutsu that sees almost no common usage in high level shinobi, with the exception of Kakashi, Itachi (Crow Clones, not Shadow Clones) & Naruto (only one whose entire style from day one has been based on Mass Multiple Clone spam).

I agree with PG -and it might be the first time ever-, Kisame steamrolls the no-feats fallacious character.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
I don't think he was. Didn't see any eye markings disappearing.

Both Lee & Guy can use Gates. Doesn't mean they'd be at the same level of speed if they both opened the same number of gates.
Sure, she'd be very fast, but using Naruto's speed (especially his dodging of A's punch) to justify her's is ridiculous.

Nah, Sasuke was able to follow him when he was dodging Amaterasu . He just couldn't follow A once A went behind, simply because he couldn't turn his neck that way in time.


He had it before he got there.

Well the Gates do not work in the same way as the Kyuubi Mode. One is something that all humans have, like a heart. The other is something different in the case of Mito(who had full Kyuubi) and Naruto(who only has half). Now assuming the Kyuubi Mode increases the physical states of someone(and I don't), let's say Naruto has a speed of 3.5(Databook). Square(pulled out of arse) that and his speed would be 12.25. Now we assume Mito is very slow, like 2. Double square that(since she has twice the Kyuubi as Naruto) and she'd be faster actually. vin

Considering it is a tech that requires you look at them, nah.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
He had it before he got there.

Well the Gates do not work in the same way as the Kyuubi Mode. One is something that all humans have, like a heart. The other is something different in the case of Mito(who had full Kyuubi) and Naruto(who only has half). Now assuming the Kyuubi Mode increases the physical states of someone(and I don't), let's say Naruto has a speed of 3.5(Databook). Square(pulled out of arse) that and his speed would be 12.25. Now we assume Mito is very slow, like 2. Double square that(since she has twice the Kyuubi as Naruto) and she'd be faster actually. vin

Considering it is a tech that requires you look at them, nah.

Doesn't mean he had it when he got there.

Gates amp one's base speed, as does KCM IMO. So even if they are different, they both do not raise one's speed to a set level, they simply amp one's speed by a certain level.
What a load of BS. Thus you agree that Mito < Naruto in speed. vin

Considering A was behind Sasuke when he 'blitzed' him, yah.

Originally posted by Bentley
I agree with PG -and it might be the first time ever-, Kisame steamrolls the no-feats fallacious character. finally recovered from our battlezone i see

anyway, it's not like you have much choice here. feats matter cause on-paper hinata and neji have the same kekkei genkai but there is a an enormous gulf in between every single skill they exhibit. even their intellect and mindset are completely different. this stuff matters.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Doesn't mean he had it when he got there.

Gates amp one's base speed, as does KCM IMO. So even if they are different, they both do not raise one's speed to a set level, they simply amp one's speed by a certain level.
What a load of BS. Thus you agree that Mito < Naruto in speed. vin

Considering A was behind Sasuke when he 'blitzed' him, yah.

Considering he would have no idea where they were specifically without it, he probably did.

Naruto went from 3.5 to faster than A, the fastest shinobi alive. Would obviously be a jump of 1.5 at the very least. And of course, she had more of the Kyuubi. Double 1.5, add it to 2, and it would equal 5. awesome

But he got behind him cause he could not keep up. :O

Originally posted by psycho gundam
finally recovered from our battlezone i see

anyway, it's not like you have much choice here. feats matter cause on-paper hinata and neji have the same kekkei genkai but there is a an enormous gulf in between every single skill they exhibit. even their intellect and mindset are completely different. this stuff matters.

This is actually a damn good argument. Be proud of it.

But, since the abilities of the mode seem purely instinctive, it is not the same. Instinctively with this mode, one can outrun A and use chakra claws. Mito would obviously have instinct and would have access to such power.

Close but no cigar.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
finally recovered from our battlezone i see

You must be confusing me with BBz, he was the one who lost to you, I was the one tearing you appart

Was this Mito-Kisame thread really meant to be a sort-of-Battlezone?

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Considering he would have no idea where they were specifically without it, he probably did.

Naruto went from 3.5 to faster than A, the fastest shinobi alive. Would obviously be a jump of 1.5 at the very least. And of course, she had more of the Kyuubi. Double 1.5, add it to 2, and it would equal 5. awesome

But he got behind him cause he could not keep up. :O



Nah, he got there, deactivated/lost it, and leaped in.
Besides, you don't really see any trace of Sage Mode disappearing, so I don't see how you can argue against this.

3.5 was long ago. Base Naruto's speed feats then weren't as impressive as his speed feat to save Sakura.
And I don't see that scene as Naruto being outright faster than full-speed A, I see that scene as Naruto being fast enough to dodge A.
She had more of the Kyuubi...Can you prove that this factor's into KCM's stat boosts?

He got behind him because his neck couldn't keep up. His eyes could keep up though.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Nah, he got there, deactivated/lost it, and leaped in.
Besides, you don't really see any trace of Sage Mode disappearing, so I don't see how you can argue against this.

3.5 was long ago. Base Naruto's speed feats then weren't as impressive as his speed feat to save Sakura.
And I don't see that scene as Naruto being outright faster than full-speed A, I see that scene as Naruto being fast enough to dodge A.
She had more of the Kyuubi...Can you prove that this factor's into KCM's stat boosts?

He got behind him because his neck couldn't keep up. His eyes could keep up though.

See, I have the same idea, just he lost it while leaping. :O
Simple: Naruto didn't show speed like that outside of Sage Mode before. He was in Sage Mode while trying to get there. Sage Mode lasts a short bit so it would deactivate eventually, why not the perfect moment to?

But, aside from that one instance that could/could not be due to Sage Mode, what other feats are there?
So yeah, faster. He moved faster than A. :O
Well you can't prove KCM just boosts your current stats so we're at an impasse. 313

They didn't since A escaped burning to death.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
See, I have the same idea, just he lost it while leaping. :O
Simple: Naruto didn't show speed like that outside of Sage Mode before. He was in Sage Mode while trying to get there. Sage Mode lasts a short bit so it would deactivate eventually, why not the perfect moment to?

But, aside from that one instance that could/could not be due to Sage Mode, what other feats are there?
So yeah, faster. He moved faster than A. :O
Well you can't prove KCM just boosts your current stats so we're at an impasse. 313

They didn't since A escaped burning to death.

If he had lost it in the middle of saving Sakura, we'd see the eye markings disappearing. Did we?

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v48/c452/13.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v48/c452/14.html Saving Sakura again weirdly enough.
Nah, he just moved out of the way. Like Deidara moved out of the way when Sasuke was trying to slice him.

Pretty much every other physical amp boosts one's stats, instead of increasing it to a singular set level for everyone who might use said physical amp. Why should KCM be any different? You still have to prove that Mito will be as fast as Naruto in KCM. 131

They kept up. Just didn't keep up for the entire thing due to Sasuke's neck not being fast enough.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
If he had lost it in the middle of saving Sakura, we'd see the eye markings disappearing. Did we?

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v48/c452/13.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v48/c452/14.html Saving Sakura again weirdly enough.
Nah, he just moved out of the way. Like Deidara moved out of the way when Sasuke was trying to slice him.

Pretty much every other physical amp boosts one's stats, instead of increasing it to a singular set level for everyone who might use said physical amp. Why should KCM be any different? You still have to prove that Mito will be as fast as Naruto in KCM. 131

They kept up. Just didn't keep up for the entire thing due to Sasuke's neck not being fast enough.

Not true. Naruto had his head down. Certainly possible the marks could have been disappearing at the time.

...? He didn't save her. She bounced, several times in fact. Sage Mode Naruto would most likely have caught her.

Because it never shows itself to increase other amps beside speed. And chakra, obviously. And what category would speed fall into? Taijutsu of course! Which works differently, as shown here. I propose that KCM is merely one of the few exceptions Kakashi is talking about. Like Raikage's armor. The more power put into it, the faster he becomes. The Kyuubi having more chakra in Mito's case would indicate that she could become potentially faster. ^^

But they didn't catch A with Amaterasu. Had nothing to do with his neck. :O

I also think you're incorrect about how Sage Mode works.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v44/c409/14.html

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v45/c414/12.html

Now, it could be possible that they have the same amount of strength in base mode....but it strikes me as unlikely. However, using Sage Mode, both was able to reach the strength necessary to lift the rock. So it does indeed put them on equal footing. awesome

That and they're shown sparring on relatively equal terms. As they both have Sage Chakra control relatively mastered, it seems like they do fight equally. For a Frog and a Human I guess.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Not true. Naruto had his head down. Certainly possible the marks could have been disappearing at the time.

...? He didn't save her. She bounced, several times in fact. Sage Mode Naruto would most likely have caught her.

Because it never shows itself to increase other amps beside speed. And chakra, obviously. And what category would speed fall into? Taijutsu of course! Which works differently, as shown here. I propose that KCM is merely one of the few exceptions Kakashi is talking about. Like Raikage's armor. The more power put into it, the faster he becomes. The Kyuubi having more chakra in Mito's case would indicate that she could become potentially faster. ^^

But they didn't catch A with Amaterasu. Had nothing to do with his neck. :O

He had his head down when we saw it from one angle. A mere eye turn and another panel later was when we saw his eye.

She bounced once or twice before he caught her. Of course Sage Mode Naruto would have caught her. KCM would have failed though. vin

It increased his strength and his durability. Speed falls into ninjutsu when it is high speed, the same kind of speed A uses.
Naruto uses just a sliver and enters KCM. I highly doubt he's using huge chunks of it to move around at high speeds, while Mito would be using even bigger chunks simply because she "has all of the Kyuubi's chakra." And once again, the upper limit of KCM's duration is dependent on Naruto's/Mito's chakra level, not the Kyuubi's.
Also, there's a limit to how much chakra they took away from the Kyuubi, which means that they obviously did not take all of it. Ergo, no way to know if the Kyuubi chakra Mito had access to was twice that of Naruto's. vin I also doubt she had the *exact* same form, seeing as Naruto is using pure Yang chakra in KCM, whereas Mito would be using Yin & Yang.

I'm talking about the behind the back 'blitzing'.
Not catching him with Amaterasu is something else entirely, seeing as A was fast enough to dodge the first shot of it.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
I also think you're incorrect about how Sage Mode works.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v44/c409/14.html

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v45/c414/12.html

Now, it could be possible that they have the same amount of strength in base mode....but it strikes me as unlikely. However, using Sage Mode, both was able to reach the strength necessary to lift the rock. So it does indeed put them on equal footing. awesome

That and they're shown sparring on relatively equal terms. As they both have Sage Chakra control relatively mastered, it seems like they do fight equally. For a Frog and a Human I guess.

C'mon,
Sage Mode Naruto completely stopped a (approximately, according to calcs on NF) 1000 ton Rhino charging straight at him, and tossed it into the sky much as one would toss a pebble. Compound this with the fact that Fukasaku had mastered Sage Chakra completely, whereas Naruto was "getting the hang of it", and your point falls on its head.

Nah. Naruto was holding back as he was afraid that Fukasaku would use that awesome stick of his to beat the Sage Chakra and shit out of him. awesome

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
He had his head down when we saw it from one angle. A mere eye turn and another panel later was when we saw his eye.

She bounced once or twice before he caught her. Of course Sage Mode Naruto would have caught her.

It increased his strength and his durability. Speed falls into ninjutsu when it is high speed, the same kind of speed A uses.
Naruto uses just a sliver and enters KCM. I highly doubt he's using huge chunks of it to move around at high speeds, while Mito would be using even bigger chunks simply because she "has all of the Kyuubi's chakra." And once again, the upper limit of KCM's duration is dependent on Naruto's/Mito's chakra level, not the Kyuubi's.
Also, there's a limit to how much chakra they took away from the Kyuubi, which means that they obviously did not take all of it. Ergo, no way to know if the Kyuubi chakra Mito had access to was twice that of Naruto's. vin I also doubt she had the *exact* same form, seeing as Naruto is using pure Yang chakra in KCM, whereas Mito would be using Yin & Yang.

I'm talking about the behind the back 'blitzing'.
Not catching him with Amaterasu is something else entirely, seeing as A was fast enough to dodge the first shot of it.

Indeed. But it doesn't take Sage Mode very long to disappear.
Uh....when did he catch her? It seems like he is about to catch her but it also looks like she'll be done bouncy once she hits the ground.

Uh...how does one gauge the mass of that? The durability one isn't actually true. The swords were stopped by claws. And he actually *is* using bigger chunks at higher speeds. He just pulls it out and uses it so quickly that we don't notice it. It's all instinctive. Duration is dependent on the user. The actual powers, perhaps not. Of course there is a limited amount of chakra. It can't be limitless. However, Mito had access to more. Again, fully powered Kyuubi. Of course her form might have looked different I suppose but considering what Tobi said, it works in the same way.

Indeed. Not like blitzing from the front would help.
Indeed. It's called Sasuke can't keep up.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Sage Mode Naruto completely stopped a (approximately, according to calcs on NF) 1000 ton Rhino charging straight at him, and tossed it into the sky much as one would toss a pebble. Compound this with the fact that Fukasaku had mastered Sage Chakra completely, whereas Naruto was "getting the hang of it", and your point falls on its head.

Nah. Naruto was holding back as he was afraid that Fukasaku would use that awesome stick of his to beat the Sage Chakra and shit out of him. awesome

Dun care. Not really. If mastering it and getting the hang of it really meant anything, they would never have given Naruto the exact test based on Fukasaku's earlier feat. Sage Mode gives the users relatively the same status in regards to strength. It's possible there might be *slight* differences based on how strong they were before but that is merely a possibility, not a fact. Then again, this is all just speculation.

Probably. Any who, since it is apparently just us still arguing...

Adios! :O

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Indeed. But it doesn't take Sage Mode very long to disappear.
Uh....when did he catch her? It seems like he is about to catch her but it also looks like she'll be done bouncy once she hits the ground.

Uh...how does one gauge the mass of that? The durability one isn't actually true. The swords were stopped by claws. And he actually *is* using bigger chunks at higher speeds. He just pulls it out and uses it so quickly that we don't notice it. It's all instinctive. Duration is dependent on the user. The actual powers, perhaps not. Of course there is a limited amount of chakra. It can't be limitless. However, Mito had access to more. Again, fully powered Kyuubi. Of course her form might have looked different I suppose but considering what Tobi said, it works in the same way.

Indeed. Not like blitzing from the front would help.
Indeed. It's called Sasuke can't keep up.

Should take longer than an eye-turn.
Fine. He reached her.

The force of the Hachibi's shot itself broke through 9 layers. Naruto pushed through most of the remaining 25. Besides, I remember the 4 Tailed Kyuubi's Menacing Ball being massive enough to impede its movement. What? I don't see any claws when he actually stops them, just his arm. He used the claws to hold the swords.
Yeah, he is probably using bigger chunks of it to move faster, and I did not say otherwise. But is he using huge-ass chunks of it, and would Mito have enough control to use 2x huge-ass chunks of it? I don't think that is the case.
Do we know she had access to more? There's only so much one can pull away from it, and we don't know how much Mito pulled away.

Indeed. Not when Amaterasu was right in front of you, and your opponent would see you coming from a mile away, figuratively speaking.
Close but no cigar. It's called Sasuke's body can't keep up. His eyes keep up just fine.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Dun care. Not really. If mastering it and getting the hang of it really meant anything, they would never have given Naruto the exact test based on Fukasaku's earlier feat. Sage Mode gives the users relatively the same status in regards to strength. It's possible there might be *slight* differences based on how strong they were before but that is merely a possibility, not a fact. Then again, this is all just speculation.

Probably. Any who, since it is apparently just us still arguing...

Adios! :O

On the contrary, it could easily mean that Naruto would have a higher strength level when amped, simply because he had more strength in his base form.
But basically, do you really think Fukusaku could stop a charging Rhino and toss it or a feat of similar strength to compensate for the size difference?

Meh. Q99 & PG are chickens.

So I declare that Itachi steps in and pwns them both. awesome

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
1. I don't recall A ever going at fullspeed against Bee.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v57/c543/11.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v57/c543/15.html

Notice the difference in A's hair. He was at full power, and the text at the end of the chapter mentions Bee surpassed A.

... In base. Bee didn't fight Kisame in base.



Not by much.



You have no proof at all to suggest it wasn't at full speed.



You misunderstood my question. Prove the speed is instictive from the mode itself. The link you posted pretty obviously alludes that it emanates from him being Minato's son, making a direct comparison between the two.



........ That's it? This is what gets Mito to S+? Really?

No man. You can argue that the power stems from the Kyuubi, but you can't actually claim that she definitely had that mode at all, let alone that it would give her the same abilities as Naruto.

Not buying it. Kisame wins.

Originally posted by NemeBro
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v57/c543/11.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v57/c543/15.html

Notice the difference in A's hair. He was at full power, and the text at the end of the chapter mentions Bee surpassed A.

... In base. Bee didn't fight Kisame in base.

The text said it gave him the strength to beat A. And he is obviously stronger. Faster? Shit. Where is the support for that reasoning?

Originally posted by NemeBro
You have no proof at all to suggest it wasn't at full speed.

Considering fullspeed is something he only pulls out when going at someone with intent to kill, I doubt he was.

But if I must prove it...A is in the middle of the area. A goes into the max power.(To Bee's shock. And if we're basing it off his hairspikeyness, it certainly looks spikeyer there)A clears the distance in less than a second. Now moving that much ground certainly looks faster than his actions here.

Originally posted by NemeBro
You misunderstood my question. Prove the speed is instictive from the mode itself. The link you posted pretty obviously alludes that it emanates from him being Minato's son, making a direct comparison between the two.

Minato was the Yellow Flash because his FTG allowed him to quickly port from place to place using Space time techs. What Naruto did was simply use super speed. He has never shown such speed before. We must conclude that yes, the speed comes from his new mode. Him being Minato's son is irrelevant. He was Minato's kid before. He was never described as a flash before. And it is noted later on that yes, the speed comes from the mode.

Now keep in mind, this was Naruto's first time in this mode. It was all new to him. Sensing evil came naturally, creating chakra claws came naturally. And when Kisame got out, Naruto (Not Bee or Yamato) was the first to react. And he moved at speeds he has never shown before, instinctively. The only reason he refrains from moving at such speeds is probably because he has to worry about hurting himself while doing it.



Originally posted by NemeBro
........ That's it? This is what gets Mito to S+? Really?

No man. You can argue that the power stems from the Kyuubi, but you can't actually claim that she definitely had that mode at all, let alone that it would give her the same abilities as Naruto.

Not buying it. Kisame wins.

Si.

Then why is she noted to have an ability only Naruto is known to have and then only within that mode?

Perhaps. Then again, this thread should be entitled "*****ing." Because that was what it was made for.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
The text said it gave him the strength to beat A. And he is obviously stronger. Faster? Shit. Where is the support for that reasoning?

Check the flashback. You see A chastising Bee regarding that he has to lower his speed so that Bee can match his Lariat.

He at the very least matched his speed. That is clear.



Conjecture.



The difference in "hair spikiness" is very minor.

And no, Bee surpassed A. He didn't surpass "A holding back."

You have no evidence at all, now you are looking at a still manga image and trying to tell me it looks faster.

No.



Then why is he constantly compared to Minato, rather than Mito? Of course it comes from his new mode (The one Mito is never shown to have), but you ever consider that the Kyuubi mode could be moulded by Naruto's own chakra? Which is why the comparisons to the Yellow Flash are continually being stated, as well as to Naruto himself.



Sure, the ability to sense emotions could come from the Kyuubi. You have nothing at all to suggest that Mito has that exact same mode, or the abilities resulting from it.

This thread is stupid. Discussions regarding Mito are stupid. Kisame eats her chakra and then eats her.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
This is actually a damn good argument. Be proud of it.

But, since the abilities of the mode seem purely instinctive, it is not the same. Instinctively with this mode, one can outrun A and use chakra claws. Mito would obviously have instinct and would have access to such power.

Close but no cigar. well she really dropped the ball during her lifetime cause only someone with the kyuubi can deal with tobi/madara (whoever the F did the deed back in mito's time)

tobi recalled mito having the evil scanning thing and said naruto would see through the zetsu, so she did at least have that ability for sure, i guess time will tell if tobi likens naruto's fighting ability to mito's as well though that seems unlikely as hell since not even kushina has any legendary status regarding any kyuubi abilities prior to getting knocked up.

-----------------------

naruto never outran A, all he did was dodge his punch once after several failed attempts. if raikage wanted to pursue him it looks like his travel speed is enough to overcome naruto's.

Why is he compared to Minato? Because almost all of them were during Minato's time and not Mito's, decades prior (Mito would be fairly old when A and Tsunade were kids, and Bee wasn't born by the time she died).

Except for Tobi, who does compare him to Mito, and Onoki, who's made no comparisons.


I still have a problem with this "She has a power only coming from this mode, and the prerequisites of this mode, but not this mode," stance that your position relies on.



He's only a 3.5 in base mode.

Even if she's only a 3, that'd put her KCM speed in the low 5 range (to Naruto's high-5).




But what we do know of her gives her one of those most powerful combat modes we know...


I can't help but notice that the anti-Mito people are just saying "Mito loses!" without providing arguments. No-one's providing any arguments as to why she wouldn't have Kyuubi Chakra Mode, and only Demonic Phoenix is actually arguing how KCM would do vs Kisame in a fight.


Which is why I feel it quite safe to ignore them in the ranking thread.

It's not a popularity rating, after all, it's based on how people view the data, and people telling me I should change this or that without an argument that addresses the data or ignores it because they don't like the data is simply irrelevant.

Well son of a *****. Here I was thinking if I didn't bother replying to NemeBro or DP, the thread would just die. Well **** me, that didn't work.

I do so wonder why Tobi didn't mention Mito having that mode, rather than saying "Oh he can sense emotions like her".

Yeah not buying it. It's an assumption without nearly enough evidence to be used in a vs. thread.

And frankly, I'm not convinced even if she has the mode she could beat Kisame.

Kisame makes the area water. All of the sudden he is now faster than she is.

Kisame wins.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
well she really dropped the ball during her lifetime cause only someone with the kyuubi can deal with tobi/madara (whoever the F did the deed back in mito's time)

To be fair, they were believed dead at the time.

Otherwise I'm sure Mito and Tobirama or maybe prime Sarutobi would've gone out to crush heads.



A remembered her extraordinary chakra.

And in her case, we have a shown really impressive feat with the Kyuubi and her barrier jutsu.

Originally posted by Q99
her barrier jutsu. pein's barrier was waaaaay better, and that's not his bread and butter

Originally posted by psycho gundam
pein's barrier was waaaaay better, and that's not his bread and butter

Pain made a barrier? When was that?


And regardless of whether other people's were better, hers was still rather good

pein's barrier from right before sakura/chiyo fought sasori within the abandoned akatsuki hideout

Oh yea. Not sure if the barrier itself was too impressive, though, but the traps guarding it were nice.

all five of the tags had to be removed at once, and the barrier itself caused physical harm (iirc) and of coarse each tag made a copy of the person who approached it, kekkei genkei and ninja tools included

They also had time to lay all five tags in advance. Kushina just tossed one up for the purpose of keeping Kyuubi in and Sarutobi out

Not damaging, granted, Pain's barrier was pretty sweet, but like I said, hers isn't shabby.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Now that I think about it.....Lee and Guy probably fight in the best attire for battle. haermm


That actually was a point covered in the anime. Guy gave Naruto the jump suit and explained that he uses its bouncy goodness for fighting.




About the thread: Mito wins because Samhada can only take 6 tails at a time. If Kisame tries to absorb too much of the Kyuubi chakra...he will kill himself (because he has to have enough to balance out the chakra).


The Kyuubi has twice as much power from Mito. And Mito had to be exceptionally strong to serve as the host for the Kyuubi (due to the chakra requirements...that and the ability of the ninja are almost always the reasons a host is chosen...see Bee for example). So, with twice the chakra, 6 tails cloak form is actually 12 tails compared to the others beasts because the Kyuubi has more than twice the chakra of any other single beast.

So, Samheda absorbs his thang...then Kisame does his absoption ...and the Kyuub with Mito still have plenty of chakra left over. Kisame dies on his own because he waaaay underestimated Mito.



Look ma, I didn't have to invoke KCM.



It's all conjecture. However, it is far more likely that the host, since it is chosen to protect the Kage, is quite an awesome ninja. It would be erroneous to assume AGAINST Mito rather than for her because it is far more likely that she was a truly awesome ninja than not being one.

I see it as both sides trying to make a baseless assumption...however, one side is not actually baseless and the other is. Hint: the one that says Mito HAS to be an awesome ninja is not baseless. The other demanding that she's not a awesome ninja is baseless and actually contradicted by a few portions in the manga.



Stick with what is safest/most probable: Mito was a super awesome ninja. She was the WEAPON of her nation. She was so awesome that Hashirama thought it okay to sell/give away all the other tailed beasts. AHA!

Originally posted by Q99




He's only a 3.5 in base mode.

Even if she's only a 3, that'd put her KCM speed in the low 5 range (to Naruto's high-5).

/B]

a) Assuming she's a 3, and not lower like a 2, or higher like a 4. srug
Kisame is also able to react to mid-low end 5's just fine.

b) 3.5 was around 3-4 years ago I think? Before he learned Sage Mode. His base mode's probably gotten faster since then due to his taijutsu skills increasing.

Originally posted by Q99
They also had time to lay all five tags in advance. Kushina just tossed one up for the purpose of keeping Kyuubi in and Sarutobi out

Not damaging, granted, Pain's barrier was pretty sweet, but like I said, hers isn't shabby. five of six paths of pein place them wherever, and then animal path reverse summons the paths back together.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
a) Assuming she's a 3, and not lower like a 2, or higher like a 4. srug
Kisame is also able to react to mid-low end 5's just fine.

Finding an experienced ninja with speed lower than 3 is almost unknown... unless they have a tremendous strong ranged skillset that doesn't require much moving to begin with.



He's done no particular speed training that we know of (as for taijutsu training, both Hidan and Tsunade have lowish speed and great taijutsu) and I still don't think he's got any new baseform speed feats of note.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Well son of a *****. Here I was thinking if I didn't bother replying to NemeBro or DP, the thread would just die. Well **** me, that didn't work. cop-out of the highest degree if I ever saw one. C'mon son.

Originally posted by Bentley
You must be confusing me with BBz, he was the one who lost to you, I was the one tearing you appart
you mean the one where you had a guy who ran on nuclear power, and i had a guy with the ability to negate all nuclear reactions on a global scale?

http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g386/psychogundam1/gifs/silvavin.jpg

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
cop-out of the highest degree if I ever saw one. C'mon son.

Not really cop-out so much as it is my typical plan of action.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
you mean the one where you had a guy who ran on nuclear power, and i had a guy with the ability to negate all nuclear reactions on a global scale?

http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g386/psychogundam1/gifs/silvavin.jpg

You mean the machine depending on the weather, that fueled my guy and that you would build at random after a list of endless no-durability constructs you just posted one after another?

Yep, you had me on the ropes there peaches

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Not really cop-out so much as it is my typical plan of action. Your typical plan is to stop posting when your argument gets destroyed? I guess, lol.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Your typical plan is to stop posting when your argument gets destroyed? I guess, lol.

If it was destroyed, there'd be nothing to say. I could continue arguing, but I don't actually care enough to type things.

Right, you just... cared enough to start the conversation in the first place. lol. So do you just have ADD, or was the discussion with Nemebro and DP going in a direction that turned you off?

Indeed. Of course, if those are the only two choices, I'd go with ADD.

You don't have to argue something for pages on pages. 3-5 is enough for me. Well, in this case anyway. If I care about the argument, I could go all say. But I could think of better things to do with my time. Like jerking off. :O

Are you trying to offend every poster in this site?

You better be good at jerking off!

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Right, you just... cared enough to start the conversation in the first place. lol. So do you just have ADD, or was the discussion with Nemebro and DP going in a direction that turned you off?

I'll note Aura didn't start the argument, I and psycho did


And I've still yet to hear any good argument for her not to have Kyuubi Chakra Mode, only the 'incredible coincidence' hypothesis.

Originally posted by Bentley
Are you trying to offend every poster in this site?

You better be good at jerking off!

Nah. If posters want to argue forever, more power to them. I do too when the topic is appealing to me. But if it's not, and I say what I feel needs to be said on the subject, then I will leave after a while.

I suck at it.

Originally posted by Q99
I'll note Aura didn't start the argument, I and psycho did


And I've still yet to hear any good argument for her not to have Kyuubi Chakra Mode, only the 'incredible coincidence' hypothesis. I try not to make assumptions based on a single nigh-throwaway line of dialogue that she can reproduce the exact same form of Naruto's and therefore gets all of his feats.

I find it hard to believe that Hiruzen could be the strongest person in Konoha if his wife could do this.

Though frankly the Kyuubi mode is overrated as well. It's not even the equivelant of baseline Bee, and as we have very much seen, it's not the equivelant to all of the Kyuubi's power, nowhere near.

Yes, I see absolutely no basis for the idea the form is as powerful as Bee's various transformations. I very much doubt this form is even equal to the 4 tails cloak. It certainly doesn't have as good of feats as the 4 tails. Its definitely not as strong as the 6 tails, since he can't resist Shinra Tensei this time. So I think the comparison to Bee's various modifications is an erroneous one. Bee went through a similar form with the eight tails, and he has definitely abandoned it in favor of the wild-looking cloaks.

Originally posted by NemeBro
I try not to make assumptions based on a single nigh-throwaway line of dialogue that she can reproduce the exact same form of Naruto's and therefore gets all of his feats.

Never said that. It does mean she has the capabilities that come from the mode itself, though, something a couple people here seem to like to ignore.

You are making assumptions based on less than a single line on what her power should be. "A single line that says a direct known factor isn't enough. Let's base our power rating on zero lines instead," isn't going to fly.

Just because you don't find one line enough (one fairly definitive line which has had no alternate explanations raised) doesn't mean you should make assumptions based on zero lines.



You mean, Hashirama? He's still absurdly powerful himself. I don't have problem seeing him equal or stronger than someone in KCM.



Lemme think about my response to that...


We've seen how powerful KCM is, quite a bit stronger than the 4-tail cloaks (way above the non-total transformation version, no matter the number of tails, still more useful than the turn into kyuubi 4-tails version), and you two have presented zero evidence actually supporting a lower-powered form.


"Yea, I think it's probably less powerful, based on nothing," is not much of an argument ^^;



Oh, what, and 6-tails total transformation mode isn't S+? Not to mention it's a lot more flexible, in that the user can still do jutsu other than biju ball and bashing stuff as well as getting a huge speed boost and not becoming a huge target.

If you're going to make an argument, try not to make one that doesn't still put KCM at S+.


---

Seriously people, if you're trying to argue for her at S plain? Your arguments here suuuuuuck. Try harder!

Originally posted by Q99
Never said that. It does mean she has the capabilities that come from the mode itself, though, something a couple people here seem to like to ignore.

You're reading "He can read emotion like Mito" to mean "He has that form that Mito has that can do all this other neat stuff but I'm only mentioning read emotion."

You could certainly argue she has use of the Kyuubi's power, obviously, but frankly, that doesn't mean she has the mode itself.

Hell, we've known for like 200 chapters that the Kyuubi could read emotions, when it noted the sinister nature of Sasuke's chakra reminds it of Madara.



Please do tell me what assumption I've made. Can we reason that the Kyuubi host is powerful? Sure. But we do not have enough information to make any coherent argument for or against her.

I didn't mention your rating system at all, and am not arguing her being dropped to S. I frankly couldn't give two shits where you put her on it, so please do drop the defensive attitude for your list.



You assume that the ability to read emotions definitely comes form the mode. That could be the case, but it's still speculation, not fact.

I could even admit it might be "fairly likely" that she has the mode, but not enough for me to give her the win over Kisame, not a chance.



Yes I meant Hashirama.

I'm not so certain about that. Though the full extent of Hashirama's abilities are admittedly unknown.

Also, Bee at base would still be more powerful than Mito, or at least on par.

Her having the full Kyuubi means nothing at all, since the mode doesn't seem to use the full extent of the Kyuubi's powers anyway.

Yea, the nigh-unique power that comes directly from Kyuubi Chakra Mode.

I'm still waiting for any other vaguely plausible explanation for how she can have it without KCM that even approaches her having KCM in likeliness.

So far no-one here has given any.



Yet no-one else has the ability until they get to that level of mastery, the only other time it's known to exist is when someone gains that mode. That does imply things rather strongly.

I'm curious one other thing that it could mean besides having KCM. Because currently we're working on a very short list of possible explanations here.



That she has a power that is known to come from a specific mode but not that mode.



Oh, even aside from the ratings, I find the arguments against her from most corners pretty silly.

"Sure, she has such high mastery of kyuubi that she has one of the strongest and rarest powers coming from it, but that doesn't mean she has the only known way to get that power even though she has all the prerequisites of that power."



See, the thing is people come up and act sarcastic about it every week or so, even though the actual support for it doesn't contain much in the way of 'arguments'.

So I'm going to sarcastic the heck out of it if I don't get some solid arguments. Someone wants to drop it? Fine. Someone wants to bring up actual arguments? Also fine. Someone wants to just assume based on nothing and try and present opinion as trumping what evidence we do have? Ehh, I'm not going to take that seriously or pretend to do so, not with how much it's come up.

If you aren't in the "She's definitely weaker!... you'll just have to trust me on that, because I can't back it up but won't drop it," crowd, then I apologize for catching you in the crossfire, because I've gotten the impression you are.



Not disagreeing, he does have some strong powers she should not, namely Biju Ball.

Originally posted by Q99
Yea, the nigh-unique power that comes directly from Kyuubi Chakra Mode.

I'm still waiting for any other vaguely plausible explanation for how she can have it without KCM that even approaches her having KCM in likeliness.

So far no-one here has given any.

She has the power based on having a good deal of mastery over the Kyuubi (Who has demonstrated that power), but doesn't necessarily have the mode that gives Naruto said power.

Done.

I'm not even saying that is as possible as her having KCM, but I frankly find arguments concerning a character who to my recollection has done nothing at all noteworthy on-panel



Only it's a standard ability of the Kyuubi. Seriously, sensing emotions is a standard ability of the damn thing. Is it so hard to believe that Mito could access what is IMHO a fairly minor ability in terms of complexity of the beast without needing the entire mode?

Also, "no one else" has shown to be able to do it without the mode because our only definitive case subject is Naruto.



Ah, but I did not make that assumption. I simply assume nothing, I speculate on what "could" be possible, but I am firmly under the stance that Mito warrants no discussion at all.



Something else just occurred to me.

Wasn't Minato the creator of the Seal and the Key (Him creating his own variation/expansion of a seal created by Mito's clan that originally was used to seal the Kyuubi) that led to Naruto unlocking the KCM? How could Mito have the mode when the jutsus that are required to create it didn't even exist back then? Unless I'm remembering wrong.



I'm a genius and every argument I've ever made is flawless so I can't see your problem. estahuh

On a more serious note, looking back at some of my posts concerning this in the past, I can see why'd you consider my posts vaguely douchey, and for that I apologise.

That said, on the third point, that's sort of my point. "Definitely weaker"? Weaker than... What? Weaker than Naruto (I'd say probably)? Weaker than Kakashi (Hard to say but probably not)? Weaker than Konohamaru (This doesn't warrant discussion, the answer is obviously)? We don't know, we don't know the full extent of her abilities, her limitations, how she fights, etc. All we know is that as a host with large amounts of chakra, the Kyuubi contained in her, and good Sealing jutsu, she's probably pretty powerful. But I honestly don't think that Mito, who could for all intents and purposes not exist in the manga and no one would notice, really warrants any discussion, and probably shouldn't be on the Ratings list at all, if I were to be honest.



Well I'm working off the assumption that she's probably not as strong as current Naruto.

i want her, and kushina off the list, and for Q99 to kiss the ring

"rubber guy" has more feats.

But we know Kushina was an experienced Kyuubi Jinchuuriki who had chakra good at controlling Kyuubi, and she didn't have it, and nor did any of the other modes grant *any* sensor awareness to Naruto.

Also, without KCM, that is getting the chakra without the mind, drawing on lots of kyuubi power turns on bestial, and has a big source of evil right there inside their head. Not exactly conductive to precise sensors powers, is it?


And no, it's not impossible to believe... but we also have nothing indicating that to be the case. We have one scenario with evidence pointing at it, and the rest is just speculation.

Would it be great to have more? Sure. But we only *know* one way to have the ability, and we have no info pointing to anything else.

Some evidence > No evidence.



Discussion? Maybe not. But ratings? As long as we have a general impression of someone's power, they've gone on so far.



Things she has Naruto doesn't: Master sealing.

Things Naruto has she doesn't: Rasengan, sage mode.

Things both have: Kyuubi Mastery to uber-sensor levels.


Quite frankly I wouldn't be surprised if current Naruto, when fighting unified, breaks into SS-, but at the least he's pretty high within S+. Even without his two extra abilities, though, I do thing *just* the pure KCM abilities are plenty to make someone S+, they really are pretty uber on their own.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
i want her, and kushina off the list, and for Q99 to kiss the ring


Sorry, but whining is not an argument and never will be

You made this thread to try and 'prove' your point but right off the bat you gave up trying to make you point right off the bat and backed off into whining again.

If you can't respond with an argument and can only complain and cry about it, why should I care what you say? It's just a grudge against a character(s), not a power argument, and it's not an opinion poll.




Rubber guy is on the list too, and Kushina has more feats than him.

We do have people on based on informed ability too, like Hashirama.

We put Muu up when all we knew was all the Kage felt only Onoki could meet him. Less than Mito has now, in other words.

3rd Raikage got on more for his informed performance than his actual shown feats, which weren't *that* high (and he got on before said feats at that, too).

We have umbrella-needle guy. Kiba's mom and Shino's dad. Hizashi. Baki. And so on.


Yea, I'm being consistent. I'm not going to indulge in your pet dislike with no evidence, stop whining about it and grow up.

Originally posted by Q99
But we know Kushina was an experienced Kyuubi Jinchuuriki who had chakra good at controlling Kyuubi, and she didn't have it, and nor did any of the other modes grant *any* sensor awareness to Naruto.

Also, without KCM, that is getting the chakra without the mind, drawing on lots of kyuubi power turns on bestial, and has a big source of evil right there inside their head. Not exactly conductive to precise sensors powers, is it?


And no, it's not impossible to believe... but we also have nothing indicating that to be the case. We have one scenario with evidence pointing at it, and the rest is just speculation.

Would it be great to have more? Sure. But we only *know* one way to have the ability, and we have no info pointing to anything else.

Some evidence > No evidence.



Discussion? Maybe not. But ratings? As long as we have a general impression of someone's power, they've gone on so far.



Things she has Naruto doesn't: Master sealing.

Things Naruto has she doesn't: Rasengan, sage mode.

Things both have: Kyuubi Mastery to uber-sensor levels.


Quite frankly I wouldn't be surprised if current Naruto, when fighting unified, breaks into SS-, but at the least he's pretty high within S+. Even without his two extra abilities, though, I do thing *just* the pure KCM abilities are plenty to make someone S+, they really are pretty uber on their own.



Sorry, but whining is not an argument and never will be

You made this thread to try and 'prove' your point but right off the bat you gave up trying to make you point right off the bat and backed off into whining again.

If you can't respond with an argument and can only complain and cry about it, why should I care what you say? It's just a grudge against a character(s), not a power argument, and it's not an opinion poll.




Rubber guy is on the list too, and Kushina has more feats than him.

We do have people on based on informed ability too, like Hashirama.

We put Muu up when all we knew was all the Kage felt only Onoki could meet him. Less than Mito has now, in other words.

3rd Raikage got on more for his informed performance than his actual shown feats, which weren't *that* high (and he got on before said feats at that, too).

We have umbrella-needle guy. Kiba's mom and Shino's dad. Hizashi. Baki. And so on.


Yea, I'm being consistent. I'm not going to indulge in your pet dislike with no evidence, stop whining about it and grow up.


I have nothing against Psycho Gundam because he's my boy...but...


Well said.




And, with the experience Naruto's clones got fighting for that long period of time...it SHOULD give him a nice experience boost with KCM and other things. He's basically been fighting all damn day or something like that.

To think that Mito had that mode for decades.


Why does no one acknowledge the requirements to be a jinchuriki are "lots of natural chakra levels and very skilled ninja"? She is taking in the Kyuubi which was full powered (Jiraiya said, in reference to he half powered Kyuubi, that it had the most chakra out of the tailed beasts) so it required her to have waaaaaaaay more chakra than most characters in Naruto could have. We also know that she was an Uzamaki, which means she ALREADY had lots of chakra...but she was exceptional among Uzumaki, even, meaning she was retardedly chakra-leveled. And she had KCM? She's easily Kage-level. With her hand seals (she sealed the beast in herself...wtf? HERSELF! If that doesn't say she was exceptional (because other nations have a team do it...)...)

Rubber guy should get an spin off, about pirates.

Originally posted by Bentley
Rubber guy should get an spin off, about pirates.

HA!

Originally posted by Bentley
Rubber guy should get an spin off, about pirates.

Best thing anyone's said this thread, I would totally buy that manga!

Will Jinpachi be his first mate?

Random Love Letter guy would obviously be the Gol D Roger character in this spinoff.



Well, little kids use the argument so never will be is a stretch. awesome



Mostly because it isn't. Premature baby Gaara wasn't really a ninja. Nor was Naruto. They might have had a large amount of chakra but I dunno.

But now I'm just nitpicking.

Originally posted by Q99
But we know Kushina was an experienced Kyuubi Jinchuuriki who had chakra good at controlling Kyuubi, and she didn't have it, and nor did any of the other modes grant *any* sensor awareness to Naruto.

Considering all of Naruto's other Kyuubi modes consisted mostly of of "RAWR NARUTO SMASH" him not using it in those modes isn't really a defense.



By that train of thought I guess Kushina did not in fact have any decent control over the Kyuubi's chakra because obviously without that mode it is impossible to control Kyuubi's power.



You've managed to sidestep a large chunk of my argument. If you want to discuss this with anything resembling rationality, don't do that.

Namely that the conditions that lead to using the KCM were created by Minato, if I am recally correctly.



Perhaps that is a problem inherent in the system then.



Which usually doesn't mean a whole lot in a fight. Only Danzo has demonstrated combat sealing on someone who didn't already have a seal on them (Like Naruto), though I suppose we could assume she could use it for other useful effects, like when Jiraiya sealed Amaterasu.



You forgot a plethora of demonstratable feats and the ability to hang with the top dogs in the Naruto universe.



Yes but she hasn't exactly shown to have or explicitly said to have the KCM has she?



How is he pretty high into S+? He's not even that much stronger than A, if at all, who is S. He is demonstratably not as powerful as Bee as well.

This discussion can go no further until you answer this: Did or didn't Minato create the seals that lead to the creation of the KCM?

I'm pretty sure she did. Mito only had the four trigram or whatever it's called seal that held the Kyuubi in her, Naruto had the Eight Trigrams seal and then received teh key to unlock KCM.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Mostly because it isn't. Premature baby Gaara wasn't really a ninja. Nor was Naruto. They might have had a large amount of chakra but I dunno.

But now I'm just nitpicking.

No, it is.

Gaara has a crap-ton of natural chakra levels: one of the highest natural levels of those "alive".


In order to USE the chakra from your tailed beast, you have to have lots of chakra...or you die.


Selecting the son of a good kunoichi and the Kazekage is hardly a reason to say Gaara wasn't predicted to have lots of natural chakra....it's actually a no brainer.

Exactly, that's why she got bumped down awhile back; she can likely control a good number of tails worth of chakra cloak, but that tells us she has neither KCM nor total transformation mastery.



That's precisely the point- higher modes make you go "RAWR, Jinchuuriki smash!" unless you can separate mind from chakra. If someone didn't have the ability to do so, which is specifically what makes KCM we're told as the darkness of the mind is the limiting factor and without it you can pull as much as you like, then they'd never be a useful sensor.



Danzo, Minato (on Bee), Sarutobi (death god), Kushina (could seal Kyuubi within herself. Mito was said to have actually done this, btw), and Iruka (that seal trap he tried using on Naruto to keep him on the island).



No, I really don't. One, we have one high-end feat from her, the sealing of Kyuubi. Two, if we're told someone is as fast, strong, and tough as A, or as dangerous with puppets as Chiyo, then we'd put them at the same levels, wouldn't we? Known equivalency counts.



Because he can be 10 about-as-strong-as-A at once. He's got so much chakra even his individual clones are S-class.




Minato used 8-trigam sealing style on Naruto, but it wasn't said he invented it and he did learn his seals from the Uzumaki.

Take a look at Kushina's: here. Note that it has 8 seal bits on it, four on top four on the bottom, and probably it was originally done by Mito.

8-trigrams shouldn't be the only seal that allows total taking of the biju chakra, but it seems to be 8-trigrams or similar in any case.




Also, chakra compatibility was flat-out mentioned. Bee's family had the chakra for it, the Uzumakis did, and before they used Gaara they did note "He's compatible".

Originally posted by dadudemon
I have nothing against Psycho Gundam because he's my boy...but...


Well said. horribly said actually: he's using his wonky list as the rationale for mito/kushina.

q99 said it best himself:

Originally posted by Q99
And no, it's not impossible to believe... but we also have nothing indicating that to be the case. We have one scenario with evidence pointing at it, and the rest is just speculation.

"the rest" being 85% of what makes current naruto a capable ninja in the manga right now. mito can at least know that kisame is hiding in his sword....that helps i guess. ermm

kisame tools her in this thread brah

Originally posted by psycho gundam
horribly said actually: he's using his wonky list as the rationale for mito/kushina.


Oh wait you're serious


Why yes, you are actually complaining about a consistently used rationale on the list being used as a reason for her to be on the same list. Think about how silly that sounds for a moment. "Waaah, you're being consistent!" simply isn't going to do.


Your focus on Kushina doesn't help either, since we've seen her fight. It's really obviously just some petty grudge and not a considered argument.

So, uh, cry some more? You aren't like Neme, who's debating, you're just yelling that you aren't getting your way. I see no reason not to just put you in your corner with your bottle and continue to not care what you're whining about.




And the Kyuubi Chakra Mode's physical abilities.

If one actually looks at the list, Mito is hardly the worst offender. And complaining about Kushina is just silly.

I always thought the rule of thumb was, if they have a name and anything else to work with, judge 'em. Of course the list isn't perfect, but for what it is, it's better than something I could make.

Genma is noticeably absent from the list by the way. B+ to A-?

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
If one actually looks at the list, Mito is hardly the worst offender. And complaining about Kushina is just silly.

I always thought the rule of thumb was, if they have a name and anything else to work with, judge 'em. Of course the list isn't perfect, but for what it is, it's better than something I could make.

Exactly. It's not intended to be totally strict about who's on it.




Hm, he has very good databook stats, but the only technique of his we know about is FTG and for some reason he's still only Special Jonin, so B+.

Originally posted by Q99
Exactly, that's why she got bumped down awhile back; she can likely control a good number of tails worth of chakra cloak, but that tells us she has neither KCM nor total transformation mastery.

estahuh

My ploy to use a character you like against you has failed. I didn't expect this.



I'm not recalling much of the specifics concerning this, honestly.



estahuh

I can't even pretend that I didn't forget most of those. I'm particularly ashamed about forgetting Minato and Kushina's, which happened recently.

Though I didn't count Sarutobi since, well, that requires dying.



I'd forgotten that Naruto can do that (Despite it happening right now apparently). Partially because it's so absurdly broken I wish he couldn't do it.



Fair enough, I've forgotten that.

Originally posted by Q99
You aren't like Neme, who's debating

<3

But on that note, I now take my leave in terms of debating in this thread. I can't come up with a convincing counter-argument at the moment, and as such concede. Which means it's not really necessary to respond to this post.

mito get's too much credit, and when put to the test against kisame (who is handicapped on purpose) nothing convincing is brought up to justify her supposed status. http://i49.tinypic.com/14aaohf.gif


not sure how that's whining but whatever, it's water off of an incandescent duck's back

Originally posted by NemeBro
estahuh

My ploy to use a character you like against you has failed. I didn't expect this.

Yea, I listen to arguments

There's a few people on the list in spots I wouldn't put them at, but others have presented enough for that I really just had to concede.




I think the real zinger is Iruka. If a chunin can do useful seals in combat, then it's not too crazy hard.




Exactly.

I mean, when he got KCM, I was like, "Ehh, high stats, sure, but Sage mode already did that..."

Then, he makes a bunch of him and they *all kick as much ass*. Which made me go





Gonna do so anyway ^^

So Q99 is pwning everyone. Awesome.

(But Kushina was bumped down to S. Something I wanted forever ago. Yay. awesome)

Originally posted by psycho gundam
mito get's too much credit, and when put to the test against kisame (who is handicapped on purpose) nothing convincing is brought up to justify her supposed status. http://i49.tinypic.com/14aaohf.gif


not sure how that's whining but whatever, it's water off of an incandescent duck's back

Kyuubi Chakra Mode>Kisame.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
mito get's too much credit, and when put to the test against kisame (who is handicapped on purpose) nothing convincing is brought up to justify her supposed status.


It's only not-convincing to you in the sense of you ignoring everything being brought up.

Which says nothing about the arguments and a lot about your ability to stick your fingers in your ears ^^




Also- seriously, what is up with thinking Kisame, slayer of Jinchuuriki, is handicapped against a Jinchuuriki? He handled 4-tails solo and did incredibly well against Killerbee. He is one of the most dangerous S-mid characters for a host face!

I think you're really underestimating Kisame too.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Kyuubi Chakra Mode>Kisame. care to explain why? remember, you can't use everything naruto brings to hate table.

if ramen stand guy had it, would he be above kisame too?

Yes he would.

Originally posted by Q99
It's only not-convincing to you in the sense of you ignoring everything being brought up.

Which says nothing about the arguments and a lot about your ability to stick your fingers in your ears ^^




Also- seriously, what is up with thinking Kisame, slayer of Jinchuuriki, is handicapped against a Jinchuuriki? He handled 4-tails solo and did incredibly well against Killerbee. He is one of the most dangerous S-mid characters for a host face!

I think you're really underestimating Kisame too. Originally posted by psycho gundam
well, the fatal flaw of samahada is a problem. i'm not sure if it's the chackra taste of bee or the sheer amount he has that compels the sword to stick with him.

again, not that he needs to sap chackra though, she can just drown like team gai was going to

Originally posted by psycho gundam
if ramen stand guy had it, would he be above kisame too?

Yes. It's an auto- S class level ability.


Assume any random ninja X: if x has an ability that bumped X's speed up to almost unparalleled levels, a large strength boost, and an ESP "how evil are they?" sensing ability, X automatically becomes an S-class threat.


Let us put it this way: Naruto could keep up, without problem, to A. A was the fastest ninja alive. So fast that it could doop the Sharingan's predictive abilities. That's a broken ability and there's very few who can defend against such speed. Even Kisame, who I think is a beast in Taijutsu, was shocked by it.

that's the thing: mito is getting all of that for free when for all we know she could just sense evil intent. tobi didn't mention anything but that ability so i'm not going to do it either.

the kyuubi grants this ability (the only common denominator here), and the seal and circumstances that surround the sealing within mito were different than naruto, so i'm not jumping to conclusions without proof.

The Kyuubi does not grant this ability. The mode grants this ability. If it was just the Kyuubi, Naruto would demonstrate the ability while harnessing the Kyuubi's chakra outside the mode. He doesn't.

I frankly don't think that even if Mito has the mode she could beat Kisame, honestly, short of using the broken clones.

The mode inherently just gives amplified physical stats on par with Bee, which as we have seen is not sufficient to take on Kisame.

Just my two cents on Kisame actually fighting a Mito with the Mode. Barring broken clones of brokenness.

Originally posted by NemeBro
I frankly don't think that even if Mito has the mode she could beat Kisame, honestly, short of using the broken clones.

The mode inherently just gives amplified physical stats on par with Bee, which as we have seen is not sufficient to take on Kisame.

Just my two cents on Kisame actually fighting a Mito with the Mode. Barring broken clones of brokenness.

We actually covered this: it grants physical stats superior to Bee.


A is the fastest alive. He did not go all out against Bee. He DID do so against Naruto.

Well, he probably did use his full strength against Bee. I don't think he used his fullspeed though. Not that it would matter cause Bee never actually proved himself to be faster than A.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
that's the thing: mito is getting all of that for free when for all we know she could just sense evil intent. tobi didn't mention anything but that ability so i'm not going to do it either.

This has been covered a couple times now.


Either KCM does it, or two people have the exact same prerequisites for the same incredibly rare ability yet somehow get it via different means.


We know that drawing on kyuubi chakra without the mode draws in the Kyuubi's evil and makes one beastial, which rather precludes being a good sensor- no prior level granted any sensor ability at all, let alone the highest forum of sensor ability in the world. We also know that being able to draw upon the chakra without the mind is what lets you get as much as you need and thus KCM.

Do you have any evidence supporting this 'coincidental different methods to get a nigh-unique ability' hypothesis of yours? Because that's the conclusion you're jumping to.




Broken clones of brokenness were what I've been thinking of

With the broken clone effect, Mito would probably win with KCM, yeah. I don't see any reason why she wouldn't know how to make clones. One could perhaps make the argument that she is not aware of the inherent broken nonsense using clones in that form brings however, though it seems like something someone would try.

Originally posted by dadudemon
We actually covered this: it grants physical stats superior to Bee.


A is the fastest alive. He did not go all out against Bee. He DID do so against Naruto.

The manga directly stated that Bee surpassed his brother. Not his brother holding back.

Before Bee was shown to surpass him, the flashback directly brings up A chewing Bee out about not being able to match his speed using the Lariat.

Bee at the least matched the speed of the Lariat and exceeded it in power.

Naruto himself directly notes that a straight punch from A might kill him.

Originally posted by NemeBro
The manga directly stated that Bee surpassed his brother. Not his brother holding back.

And then it directly stated that only two people have ever bested him at his full speed, just mere pages later.


Pick which authority you are going to subscribe to.


Or, you could just take the statement in context and understand it was a strength test, not a speed test.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Before Bee was shown to surpass him, the flashback directly brings up A chewing Bee out about not being able to match his speed using the Lariat.

Bee at the least matched the speed of the Lariat and exceeded it in power.

Naruto himself directly notes that a straight punch from A might kill him.

None of that has anything to do with what I am talking about.

Originally posted by NemeBro
The manga directly stated that Bee surpassed his brother. Not his brother holding back.

Before Bee was shown to surpass him, the flashback directly brings up A chewing Bee out about not being able to match his speed using the Lariat.

Bee at the least matched the speed of the Lariat and exceeded it in power.

Naruto himself directly notes that a straight punch from A might kill him.

http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/542/8

I'm certainly seeing the words power and strength. Speed, not so much. Unless you have a different translation?

I'll just note that as long as you have the broken clones of brokenness (such a great name), it could be 80% of A and B and it'd still be crazy high power.

Originally posted by dadudemon
And then it directly stated that only two people have ever bested him at his full speed, just mere pages later.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v58/c544/14.html

"You're only the second person to dodge my top-speed punch."

Bee didn't dodge it, he matched it. 131

If there is a difference in speed between A and Bee, it isn't very large.



Not sure what you mean.



Or it could be both. The notion that A, despite being in his second level Lightning Release form, was going slower than normal, has no backing.

That said, I did misremember the flashback, I'll admit that.



You said KCM grants superior physical stats to Bee.

Speed? Yeah.

Strength? Demonstratably not.

Durability? Bee took the Lariat to the neck while overpower it, compared to Naruto who admitted that at full contact being hit by A would screw him. Do note Naruto said this concerning an A who was still in his "calmer" Lightning Shroud.

Originally posted by NemeBro
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v58/c544/14.html

"You're only the second person to dodge my top-speed punch."

Bee didn't dodge it, he matched it. 131

WHEW!


Good thing a Lariat isn't a punch then, right?

And good thing a lariat isn't a speed attack but a power attack.

And good thing they both ran at eachother fully intending to hit each other rather than dodge each other, right?

Glad I dodged that bullet because you almost had me.


Originally posted by NemeBro
If there is a difference in speed between A and Bee, it isn't very large.

I agree, oh wait...


http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/543/6



Originally posted by NemeBro
Not sure what you mean.

I explain in my very next statement why picking which two authorities you would choose, is a false dilema.



Originally posted by NemeBro
Or it could be both. The notion that A, despite being in his second level Lightning Release form, was going slower than normal, has no backing.

The notion that it mattered when they were going right at each other and did not intend to dodge and the fact that it is all about power, is the point so, no, it is not both.

Originally posted by NemeBro
That said, I did misremember the flashback, I'll admit that.

Why did you turn into a panzy of a debater...constantly admitting when you're wrong.


You're taking the fun out of everything.



Originally posted by NemeBro
You said KCM grants superior physical stats to Bee.

I had to read back on my post to understand what you meant: object confusion from the English language again...so it required context.


I now understand that what you meant to say above is this:

"You said KCM grants physical stats superior to Bee."

It sure does.



Originally posted by NemeBro
Strength? Demonstratably not.

Prove it.

Because that is not a position you can prove.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Durability? Bee took the Lariat to the neck while overpower it, compared to Naruto who admitted that at full contact being hit by A would screw him. Do note Naruto said this concerning an A who was still in his "calmer" Lightning Shroud.

So you still think that a punch from A is the same as his lariat when they are "Demonstratably not."?

Clotheslining someone is not punching them. A's punch is obviously far stronger than his lariat: see Madara's beat down (lol)


I'd say that A's punches are far more destructive than his lariat. His lariat is only a combo move used more for ensuring that the host and the raikage are in tune with each other. It was far more metaphorical than it was a literally useful technique. Why would you decap someone with your arms when you could cut their head off with your sword? Simple...there's more to a DL than being cool looking...something deeper than a superficial reading.

I note psycho stopped answering after his questions were answered and ones were asked in return

I *suspect* this means he'll just not mention it for awhile and then be back to moaning and groaning as usual ^^

you can't confirm mito's abilities other than her ability to detect evil intent. what do you want from me now?

Originally posted by psycho gundam
you can't confirm mito's abilities other than her ability to detect evil intent. what do you want from me now?

V----V

lol.. can you even post a pic of her with the sage-cloak? any feats of her using kyuubi chackra or enhanced stats? no, so give it a rest.

kushina has the ability to allow naruto to gain the ability, yet she herself didn't have it. it's not a set pattern even amongst kyuubi jinchuriki, for all we know hashirama could have had something to do with his wife's ability to suppress the kyuubi's hate, matter fact, im going to run with that, prove me wrong.

smh

Originally posted by psycho gundam
lol.. can you even post a pic of her with the sage-cloak? any feats of her using kyuubi chackra or enhanced stats? no, so give it a rest.

I can post her being directly stated to have an ability only known to come from KCM, a mode that we have a lot of details on how it works and functions.





Yes, but it only comes with sufficient mastery, to state the obvious.


Naruto couldn't do it until he achieved KCM, and we have no sign Kushina achieved KCM. So, there's no evidence that Kushina had it (though if you could show she did, that would be worth considering).


This has already been answered, y'know?




....which'd allow her to take control of it's full chakra, and thus have Kyuubi Chaka Mode

The lack of the hatred is what allows someone to draw upon the great well of chakra without transforming.

That's pretty much how Naruto gained it too, others helped him suppress the hatred.


That may very well be how she gained it, but once the hatred is gone, bam, that's all you need to draw upon the power without going beastial, aka KCM.




Oh, yea, one more thing: We're working on preponderance of evidence here, not "beyond reasonable doubt." If someone posts a crazy theory, they need to support it, it doesn't go assumed.


Granted, your theory isn't crazy... it just also happens to be a theory that doesn't suggest she lacks it, being more about how she got the mode and that suggests her having the mode, rather than an alternative to having KCM.



Right now, we still only know one way to gain evil sensing: Kyuubi Chakra Mode. If you can produce an explanation better than simply having that, then you'll get somewhere.

again, lol

minato's 8-trigrams seal most likely isn't the same one mito used on herself way back when, so to allow herself to know when tobi was going to come after her, maybe she rigged her seal to allow herself to sense evil; it goes with what we know and minato (a guy who learned seals from the uzumaki) was able to do wonders with his seals too.

i'm not cosigning her having the cloak, and if i indicated that it was accidental as i was typing that while cooking something

Originally posted by psycho gundam
again, lol

minato's 8-trigrams seal most likely isn't the same one mito used on herself way back when, so to allow herself to know when tobi was going to come after her, maybe she rigged her seal to allow herself to sense evil; it goes with what we know and minato (a guy who learned seals from the uzumaki) was able to do wonders with his seals too.


That's a lot of "maybe", and want to know what Kyuubi Chakra Mode is? Rigging the seal so it gets the power and not the evil... in other words, what you just said is "maybe she rigged her seal to give herself KCM."

In fact, just like the last example, that's pretty much what Naruto did when he got KCM, he rigged his seal so he could get the chakra without the evil, which allowed him to sense evil.


"Maybe Mito rigged the seal" still isn't an alternate explanation for how someone could sense evil without doing so, it's just another explanation that fits with how to get the mode and doesn't suggest an alternate origin of the sensing. As far as we know the only way to sense evil is large amounts of kyuubi chakra uncontaminated by it's mind and evil, and both your ideas would come with the Kyuubi's power.


So that's two explanations so far which boil down to "Here are ways she could have the evil sensing which also line up with KCM" and don't actually suggest an alternate explanation besides KCM for the sensing on it's own rather than just having KCM.

Care for three?

care to hold deez nuts?
i was just throwing out equally valid speculations.

Originally posted by Q99
Rigging the seal so it gets the power and not the evil... in other words, what you just said is "maybe she rigged her seal to give herself KCM." facepalm did you really just strawman using dyslexia?

anyway, nothing's concrete about her abilities and kishi might not even get around to elaborating on her character, unless you're kishi i don't see why you're so certain about all this.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
care to hold deez nuts?
i was just throwing out equally valid speculations.


Speculation that doesn't actually indicate another possibility is more likely than KCM, and in fact fit in just fine with the KCM conclusion, and further more both your 'speculations' are pretty much exactly how Naruto got KCM (other people helped him suppress the evil then he messed with his seal).

So they aren't very good arguments for how she *doesn't* have KCM



Again, didn't say we were certain. Just that this is the most likely state with the known knowledge (just like, literally, over a half dozen other listed people that just came off the top of the head last time this was pointed out).


The problem is you keep on bringing it up repeatedly... and you can't actually back up your objections by bringing up any alternative that doesn't fit KCM even better.