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Trinity picolo vs frieza, cooler, and king cold. All at max power. You can use DBM feats. No destroying the planet. Who wins?

Trinity Piccolo? Is that just another term for when he's fused with Kami? If so, he wins with ease, whether the Frieza family were to try to destroy the planet or not.

Yeah. Picolo fused with nail and kami is trinity picolo

I dunno, all three at once might be pretty hard if they take him seriously.

Hm, though he does fight smarter and might be able to outlast them- Freiza can't fight at max very long and that should apply to the others.

Uhhhhhh...


Trinity Piccolo is significantly stronger than a "real" super saiyan. He was stronger than android 16 and even with Android 17. Both androids made SSJ Vegeta AND SSJ Trunks look like punk bitches...like they were insects.

Future Trunks is stronger than the SSJ Goku that fought Frieza. The Mecha Frieza was supposed to be stronger than he ever was as a pure biological form....and Trunks made him look like a punk b*tch.


Trinity Piccolo....he should be able to take out of the family in an instant: as fast as Trunks took out Frieza's foot soliders (in a blink). The family is raped in this one, and with ease.

IMO Piccolo stomps them.

Wasn't that equal numbers, though? While this is three-on-one?



But he both underestimate Trunks massively due to the power hiding and was suffering Post-Traumatic stress disorder. If it weren't for those, it would've been far more of a battle.

When SSJ Goku met Future Trunks, their powers were pretty close.

Originally posted by Q99
Wasn't that equal numbers, though? While this is three-on-one?

We know Radditz had a PL of 1200. Goku and Piccolo together did not stand a chance...however, it was not nearly as much of a slaughtering as it was against Trunks and Vegeta.


I see this as being a similar case: I see Trinity Piccolo being closer to an ASSJ than I do to a SSJ and not just a little bit.


Since the androids were far superior to "real" SSJ...

And they trained for 3 years in preparation for them...


We know that they were much stronger, by that time, than the SSJ that fought Frieza.


On top of that, Trunks says that the androids in this timeline are much stronger than in his...which were superior to SSJs in his original timeline.


So these androids are stronger than really strong SSJs (still not yet ascended).

Originally posted by Q99
But he both underestimate Trunks massively due to the power hiding and was suffering Post-Traumatic stress disorder. If it weren't for those, it would've been far more of a battle.

When SSJ Goku met Future Trunks, their powers were pretty close.

I see his fear and PTSD as irrelevant since he tried to fight Trunks and kill him. Sure, he was stunned...but then he tried his best and got WTF pwned.


And, when SSJ Goku "fought" against Trunks, he only used a finger. One single finger. Hilarious!




So it is pretty clear that Trinity Piccolo is waaaaaaaay stronger than even the SSJ Trunks that killed Mech Frieza. Trunks trained for 3 years before the new androids showed up...and they were still grossly outmatched (18 pwned both Vegeta and Trunks at the same time...much more so than Raddtiz did so against Piccolog and Goku).


So there should be no doubt that Trinity Piccolo (before he trains in the HBTC for the Cell Games) is much stronger than 3 or even 4 Mecha Frieza's, much less Cooler, Frieza, and King Cold.



I see Cooler as the strongest...but Cooler still falls to an untrained SSJ Goku (he had the look he did against Frieza on Namek...so he's not the Yadrat Goku). Since I view Trinity Piccolo as a being more than 3 times as strong as a regular SSJ, but not quite as strong as an ASSJ (maybe half or a third as strong), I see this as an easy victory.


I would put Mecha Frieza, based on the "stronger" statement, at around 4th form Cooler...maybe 90% of that. A SSJ is still a match for that. A trained up SSJ trunks is no match for the weaker of the androids: 18. Two together, Vegeta and Trunks, are punks compared to 18. Piccolo was evenly matched with the stronger of the two: 17. So Piccolo is much stronger than well trained SSJs. More so than 18.

Conclusion: Piccolo is at least stronger than two really well trained SSJs. Trunks thought they were ready for the 17 and 18 of their timeline (implied) but when they arrived, they were much stronger. He was no match for just one in his SSJ form. I would say that they were twice as strong, invidually, than his original SSJ form from the alternate future. Arbitrary, but it matches closely with how Radditz compared to Goku and Piccolo: one would have to be more than twice as strong to toy with Trunks as much as they did.


So, we can use inference to assume (stupid, I know) that Cooler, who is a tad weaker than Pre-Yadrat Goku, is the strongest but around Mecha Cooler.

If Trunks was at least half as weak as android 18 from his timeline and they are much stronger in the main timeline, I'd put them at twice as strong as then.

Piccolo was even with 17 who was stronger than 16.


So we have a Piccolo who is even with a main timeline 17. 17 is stronger than 18 but not by much. 18 is twice as strong as her other form in a previous timeline. That form is twice as strong, at least, as SSJ trunks. Trunks is stronger than Mecha Frieza which is about the same as 4th form Cooler.


So...but that logic...


Trinity Piccolo = Main Timeline 17 > Main Timeline 18 >> Alternate Timeline 18 >> Alternate Timeline SSJ Trunks pre-3-year training > Mecha Frieza = 4th Form Cooler > natural Frieza > King Cold


I'd say that Trinity Piccolo can take on 2 coolers, 2 mecha frieza's and one King Cold and still win but with effort.

If you add in another King Cold, that's when it tips in their favor...maybe.

I don't remember it being that much of a slaughter. Vegeta and 18 fought for awhile, she broke his arm, etc.. Clearly the stronger but not an utter stomp.

Not at all like the Raditz fight where Raditz repeatedly blitzed those two and they were badly outsped and outmuscled.



Vegeta only got to SSJ during those years, though, and I didn't get the impression he was (yet) much stronger than SSJ Goku vs Freiza.



They were just gauging strength, though.



He never even muscled up, though. It's only muscled up form that can fight a SSJ evenly.

Originally posted by Q99
I don't remember it being that much of a slaughter. Vegeta and 18 fought for awhile, she broke his arm, etc.. Clearly the stronger but not an utter stomp.

Not at all like the Raditz fight where Raditz repeatedly blitzed those two and they were badly outsped and outmuscled.



Vegeta only got to SSJ during those years, though, and I didn't get the impression he was (yet) much stronger than SSJ Goku vs Freiza.



They were just gauging strength, though.



He never even muscled up, though. It's only muscled up form that can fight a SSJ evenly.

I edited, go back and read it. ..but I'll still respond in order.

No, it was an utter stomp because she was toying with them until she decided to put them in their place and then it was an utter stomp.

They were not badly outsped and outmatched by Radditz. I seem to remember Goku getting him into a full-nelson. Additionally, they exchanged blows quite a bit between each other (no homo) unlike 18 and Vegeta where 18 clearly was far superior even when just messing around.

We actually do not know when Vegeta reached SSJ in that 3 year period. However, your point is invalid, completely, when you consider that Trunks was already there and he did no better against 18 and was in fact raaaaped just as hard.

I believe the initial exchange was the test and Goku was like, "naaaaah...you're not going to kill me. See..told ya." Then Trunks said, "okay, this time for real."

He can't because he's a mecha. A mecha that was supposed to be much stronger than he ever was. I don't think this is what you meant because we already know that mecha frieza is stronger than his natural form: there's no doubt about it.

Picolo trashes them hard.

Do Namekians have weens? How do you know he will be hard?

Nah, Raditz was *really* slamming them around and dealing lots of damage. They only got the full nelson due to stuff like tail-grabbing, Gohan's rage, and the like, and of course it wasn't a one-on-one match, it was two-on-one which helps a lot.

18 didn't strike me as playing around all that much.

And ditto Trunks- sure, he lost, and lost significantly, but it was still a fight even though it wasn't 2-on-1.



That's a boost over his fleshy skinny form, but I don't think it was ever said he couldn't bulk up like that.

----



Anyway, I'll concede that Trinity Piccolo wins solidly, though I think it's still something of a battle and not just an instant win.

Originally posted by Q99
Nah, Raditz was *really* slamming them around and dealing lots of damage. They only got the full nelson due to stuff like tail-grabbing, Gohan's rage, and the like, and of course it wasn't a one-on-one match, it was two-on-one which helps a lot.

Nah, they exchanged far more blows than 18 and Trunks + Vegeta did.

There's no comparison. Both times netted ass kickings...but at no point did they cause 18 to run like they did to Radditz.

Originally posted by Q99
18 didn't strike me as playing around all that much.


I am basing it off of this panel:

http://www.mangareader.net/105-3001-11/dragon-ball/chapter-352.html

When she got serious, even when Vegeta punched her right in the gut, she just smiled at him and kneed him in he face (which made me lol).

Originally posted by Q99
That's a boost over his fleshy skinny form, but I don't think it was ever said he couldn't bulk up like that.


If he expands, his cybernetic attachments would break.

How can he have superior levels without expanding? Obviously, it's due to his enhancements enhancing him above his 100% level.


Originally posted by Q99
Anyway, I'll concede that Trinity Piccolo wins solidly, though I think it's still something of a battle and not just an instant win.

I think it's closer than I originally thought.


I just checked the scans and it says that Vegeta lost due to losing stamina but 18 didn't. 18 does call Vegeta weak, though. She was hoping Goku would be stronger.




Here's what I meant about them trying at the same time:

http://www.mangareader.net/105-3003-8/dragon-ball/chapter-354.html


Failed. 17 did hit Trunks one panel prior but he was occupied with Tien at the time they both went after 18. Then 18 took them both out a the same time.



And here was my evidence that Trunks is much stronger than before.


http://www.mangareader.net/105-3004-8/dragon-ball/chapter-355.html


He could fight both the cyborgs for a while...in his timeline.


Based on this stuff, I say that Piccolo is about even with the three of the Cold family.


However, due to his speed, he can quickly take out King Cold to turn it in his favor. Since he can detect power, he will know Cold is the weakest and take care of them.

I finally found what I was looking for.


http://www.mangareader.net/105-3046-10/dragon-ball/chapter-397.html


The weaker androids from the future were only using half their strength when they almost killed Gohan. Half.


Trunks had barely obtained SSJ state, I assume, when he came back in time. So he was an entry level SSJ. Gohan may have been stronger then the alternate future androids killed him.



This goes to prove my point that they trained really hard to fight the androids when they showed up but were still too weak. This is why Piccolo is so badass compared to the family.

Well you said using DBM feats and I still don't know how strong Cold in his final form is..I think someone said he was around 16 which would be leagues above his sons...I know he wasn't as strong as Cell but yeah...then again using the CANON stuff Piccolo should take this with ease.

Originally posted by Ban Mido
Well you said using DBM feats and I still don't know how strong Cold in his final form is..I think someone said he was around 16 which would be leagues above his sons...I know he wasn't as strong as Cell but yeah...then again using the CANON stuff Piccolo should take this with ease.


There is no King Cold feats. His son was stronger than he was. He bragged about being the strongest in the universe right in front of his father. His father would have said something were it not true.

Or,

1. He may have just not wanted to embarrass his son in front of his own enemy or others when Frieza said that, which would make sense. Cooler saying that father spoiled him rotten kinda supports that too.
2. Cold just had a carefree nature about what his son said in general regardless if it was true or not. Cold made himself rather secretive about being leader of the whole planet trade organization after all, so he prolly didn't care if others knew him to be strongest in the universe or not instead of his son.

Can be speculated in different ways, but when it comes down to it, Tien and the other Z fighters' mention of Cold's power when sensing it (saying it was even greater than Frieza's) still holds more weight. Not to mention, Frieza himself commented that Goku was the first one to ever hurt him besides his 'loving parents' when fighting him on Namek, so Cold hardly needs feats to at least be put on Frieza's level or above.

I agree.

Originally posted by dadudemon
There is no King Cold feats. His son was stronger than he was. He bragged about being the strongest in the universe right in front of his father. His father would have said something were it not true. Noooo I meant for DBM, I know in the real show that's the truth but in DBM he's stronger than his kids so I was trying to use those feats too cause of what the OP said, but yeah just using the canon DBZ material yeah you're right Cold is featless lol

Doesn't mean he's necessarily weaker than his sons though, given what I pointed out.

But in the end, Piccolo wins here regardless of which one from the Frieza family happens to be strongest.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Or,

1. He may have just not wanted to embarrass his son in front of his own enemy or others when Frieza said that, which would make sense. Cooler saying that father spoiled him rotten kinda supports that too.
2. Cold just had a carefree nature about what his son said in general regardless if it was true or not. Cold made himself rather secretive about being leader of the whole planet trade organization after all, so he prolly didn't care if others knew him to be strongest in the universe or not instead of his son.

Can be speculated in different ways, but when it comes down to it, Tien and the other Z fighters' mention of Cold's power when sensing it (saying it was even greater than Frieza's) still holds more weight. Not to mention, Frieza himself commented that Goku was the first one to ever hurt him besides his 'loving parents' when fighting him on Namek, so Cold hardly needs feats to at least be put on Frieza's level or above.

No, what I said was correct in the context of the anime. Frieza is stronger than his father. The scientist tells King Cold, right to his face, that they are rebuilding him to be stronger than he ever was before and to make him "the most powerful force in the universe".


So, no Frieza is the most powerful. And even taking into consideration of existing bad guys in DB, that's pretty much true.


Goku was assumed dead by Frieza...who would technically be the only person able to put up a fight against Frieza. Trunks was from the future. Buu was sealed. Cell did not exist, yet...or at least perfect cell. So, to Frieza's people, he really was the strongest in the universe. (The movies do not count).

So based on canon, saying Frieza was the most powerful in the universe at his rebuilding would not a lie or an exaggeration.

miKHrGXSDxg

And about the "parents hurt him" thing: Goku could have easily hurt his son, Gohan, when he was small. Same with Goten. You're taking that statement out of context: Frieza wasn't born with a PL of 120,000,000 because he had to grow into it.

That also settles a previous argument Q99 and I had...Frieza is the most powerful and considered stronger than anything his completely biological old self (English Dub) could do.

Also, King Cold is in his "second" form. There's no way that King Cold is stronger than Frieza who is in his final form AND he's mecha: he's supposed to be much stronger than he was before in just his biological form. For comparison, Frieza said his second form had a PL over 1,000,000. Frieza's final form was 120,000,000. In order for you to be right about Cold being stronger, he'd have to be 120 times stronger than Frieza was, in his second form. Their race seems incredibly strong but it is unlikely that there is as much as 120 times variance between Cold and Frieza especially when Mecha Frieza is supposed to be the most powerful being in the universe.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, what I said was correct in the context of the anime. Frieza is stronger than his father. The scientist tells King Cold, right to his face, that they are rebuilding him to be stronger than he ever was before and to make him "the most powerful force in the universe".
The scientists you speak of were rebuilding Frieza into what they thought would be the most powerful force in the universe... Doesn't mean they knew of King Cold's strength, which was apparently greater based on what the Z fighters said when sensing his power, and they usually know what they're talking about when it comes to sensing power levels, which I would take over the word of those scientists any day.

Originally posted by dadudemon
So, to Frieza's people, he really was the strongest in the universe. (The movies do not count).
Maybe not the other movies, but the Cooler movies do in fact count here, since Cooler's included in the 1st post of this thread and is also technically part of the Frieza family, even if he wasn't a canon character...

Therefore Frieza's not the strongest. Even if I were to agree that Frieza was stronger than his father, Cooler's final form in Cooler's Revenge and Meta Cooler are still both > Frieza.

Originally posted by dadudemon
And about the "parents hurt him" thing: Goku could have easily hurt his son, Gohan, when he was small. Same with Goten. You're taking that statement out of context: Frieza wasn't born with a PL of 120,000,000 because he had to grow into it.
IIRC, Frieza's final transformation was said to be his true form/true self, while his previous forms were something he just used/made to conceal his power, so even if he wasn't born with that power level you speak of, it probably wasn't something too far from it, and if King Cold hurt him in that form, then that says something about him, unlike if Goku were to hurt Gohan before his son became a super saiyan or somewhere near him.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Also, King Cold is in his "second" form. There's no way that King Cold is stronger than Frieza who is in his final form AND he's mecha: he's supposed to be much stronger than he was before in just his biological form.
Just because Cold resembles Frieza's 2nd form doesn't mean that's what it actually was for him. Cooler had an extra form that went beyond Frieza's "final" or true form after all, so the members of their race don't have all the same forms, otherwise Frieza would've had that same extra form his brother had in the Cooler's Revenge movie as well... Also, how do you know there's not another form in Frieza's race besides Frieza's 2nd form that isn't overly tall and has the same kind of horns that Cold has? lol We can only speculate as to what Cold's form actually was, but it's highly unlikely that he was only as strong as Frieza's 2nd form, based on evidence and all.

Cooler last form is just non-canon, it doesn't suggest nor implies any valuable information about Freeza's race.

Originally posted by Bentley
Cooler last form is just non-canon
He's still part of this vs topic according to thread author though, so therefore his last form's applicable here too. Otherwise it'd be like including Broly but not allowing him to have his LSSJ form.

Originally posted by Bentley
it doesn't suggest nor implies any valuable information about Freeza's race.
'k, but that doesn't really make it anymore reasonable to assume King Cold's only as strong as Frieza's 2nd form just because he somewhat resembles it. We don't know enough about Cold to draw any actual conclusions about forms/transformations of his since we haven't seen any from him beyond his usual appearance.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
The scientists you speak of were rebuilding Frieza into what they thought would be the most powerful force in the universe...

Yes, that's what I said. And then I explained how it was actually a true statement.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Doesn't mean they knew of King Cold's strength,...

Yeah, cause they have tons and tons of scouters that auto-pick up someone strong and it magically never works with King Cold and only King Cold.

Except, no to all of the above.

On top of that, Frieza had no figured out how to hide his power.

There's another MAJOR reason that you're wrong about King Cold. I'll save this for later.


Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
which was apparently greater based on what the Z fighters said when sensing his power, and they usually know what they're talking about when it comes to sensing power levels, which I would take over the word of those scientists any day.

No, they didn't say that about King Cold.

They said that about Frieza's more powerful mecha form.

Regardless, the scientists would still know better than the Z warriors because they actually have measuring tools.


Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Maybe not the other movies, but the Cooler movies do in fact count here, since Cooler's included in the 1st post of this thread and is also technically part of the Frieza family, even if he wasn't a canon character...

If you want to discuss that, sure, but I am not interested. The context of my points were made quite clear: the movies do not count as canon.


If you want to count Cooler's 4th form, cool.


You'd still be wrong. SSJ Goku beat that version of Cooler even more easily than he beat 100 Frieza on Namek.


So, guess what? You're still wrong even if you include the movies.


Sucks being wrong in literally every point you bring up, doesn't it?

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Even if I were to agree that Frieza was stronger than his father, Cooler's final form in Cooler's Revenge and Meta Cooler are still both > Frieza.

1. 4th form Cooler is weaker than 100% Frieza based on feats.

2. Meta Cooler is not in this thread.

3. You don't have a choice but to agree that Mecha Frieza is stronger than his father: he is. I do not need you to agree to that fact in order for it to be a fact. Here it is again: Frieza is the most powerful being in the universe when he is Mecha MINUS Goku who they presumed had died (until they ran across him coming to Earth).


Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
IIRC, Frieza's final transformation was said to be his true form/true self, while his previous forms were something he just used/made to conceal his power, so even if he wasn't born with that power level you speak of, it probably wasn't something too far from it, and if King Cold hurt him in that form, then that says something about him, unlike if Goku were to hurt Gohan before his son became a super saiyan or somewhere near him.

So now you're arguing, without precedent, that Frieza was at a power level of 120,000,000 as a new born/hatched baby? Oh, totes, man. I am convinced by your awesome arguments. dur

Here are some facts for you:

Goku was born with a power level of 2.

Gohan had a power level of 1 at the earliest of stages.

Even the most powerful of all the "babies" we know of had a power level of 10,000: Broly. Non-canon...but still the most powerful version we know of.

So, no, there's no precedent at all to assume new borns are even close to their parents.


But there's another, canon, reason you're just dead wrong.


I'll give you a hint: it's part of why Frieza could, for the longest time, claim to be the most powerful in the universe.

Also, "True" form context, the way you're using it, is not necessarily correct. Based on the context, I could easily conclude that his true form was his first form but his last form was his final form just like SSJ 3 is the canon last form of the Saiyan's.



Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Just because Cold resembles Frieza's 2nd form doesn't mean that's what it actually was for him.

And just because you say that King Cold's form is 120 times stronger than Frieza's second form, does not mean that that was what is was for Cold.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Cooler had an extra form that went beyond Frieza's "final" or true form after all, so the members of their race don't have all the same forms, otherwise Frieza would've had that same extra form his brother had in the Cooler's Revenge movie as well...

So let's back up a bit.


You're now using a non-canon character to back up your incorrect position (it is incorrect, by the way. )

You're using a form beyond frieza's TRUE form.


There's a problem.


Frieza's true form was is original form. He reverted to those other forms to lower his power. So why is Cooler's forms being used as a form of progression rather than regression?

I'll tell you why: this is why the movies are not canon. It contradicts manga on how those forms are supposed to be used.

Regardless, that form is weaker than Frieza's 100% final form. Why? Because Goku dispatched it easier than he could Frieza. Thus preserving the canon fact of Frieza being the most powerful warrior in the universe. Buu was sealed, Goku was thought dead, the androids were not done, and Trunks did not exist yet.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Also, how do you know there's not another form in Frieza's race besides Frieza's 2nd form that isn't overly tall and has the same kind of horns that Cold has? lol

Also, how do you know that there's another form that matches Frieza's second form but is actually an entirely new form? lol

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
We can only speculate as to what Cold's form actually was, but it's highly unlikely that he was only as strong as Frieza's 2nd form, based on evidence and all.

It's not really speculation, at this point: it's almost an exact match. However, taking another position would be speculation.


If you see another saiyan that has hair that turns upright, goes blond, has eyes go blue, and is glowing in a yellow "fire" with Ki energy, they are obviously not a super saiyan, right?

RIGHT?




GTFO with your silly arguments.





Lastly, here's why you are wrong:


Daizenshuu 7 says King Cold is not as strong as Frieza. Yes, that's canon.


Suck it.

Pwned.


Deal with it.


King Cold is weaker than Frieza.








Moving along, now.


4th form Cooler was evenly matched with Base Form Goku. We know that that is possible for base Goku to do that against a 1% Frieza (1% Frieza would be at 12,000,000). Frieza had to increase his power to 50% to grossly outmatch Goku (his power would be 60,000,000, at that point).




So, now, Cooler's boasts of being stronger than Frieza are false since his 4th form is equal to Goku's base form. He incorrectly assumed that Goku's base form was strong enough to defeat Frieza: it wasn't.



So what do we have?


Frieza said he was the most powerful warrior in the universe, multiple times. A boast that is true.

After being repaired, he was said to be the most powerful, again. That would have been true had Goku died and Trunks not come back (at that time it was stated).



What does this mean for the thread?



Nothing. Piccolo still wins.


What does this mean for you? You're wrong and need to learn more about Dragonball before incorrectly stating fan-made facts rather than the actual facts: Frieza is stronger than King Cold based on the canon
Daizenshuu 7 that says King Cold is weaker than Frieza. lolololololol

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
He's still part of this vs topic according to thread author though, so therefore his last form's applicable here too. Otherwise it'd be like including Broly but not allowing him to have his LSSJ form.

Oh, he is definitely part of this topic. However, your point has been destroyed about Cooler: Cooler was the one unaware that Frieza's 4th form was only at 1% and he could go 100 times more powerful.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
but that doesn't really make it anymore reasonable to assume King Cold's only as strong as Frieza's 2nd form just because he somewhat resembles it. We don't know enough about Cold to draw any actual conclusions about forms/transformations of his since we haven't seen any from him beyond his usual appearance.

Let's be clear; "somewhat resembles" is a dishonest position to take. It is not 'somewhat." He looks almost EXACTLY like Frieza in his second form.

Drawing any conclusion other than "he looks like Frieza's second form and might be around that level of strength, at best" is the one and only position you can take.


Any other position is baseless speculation. Since the Daizenshuu 7 actually states King Cold is weaker than Frieza, there's no point in pretending otherwise.

Originally posted by dadudemon


Let's be clear; "somewhat resembles" is a dishonest position to take. It is not 'somewhat." He looks almost EXACTLY like Frieza in his second form.

http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/5/1297-cold1_large.jpg
http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/543/15297-frieza_second_form_super.jpg
yep

Originally posted by Damborgson
http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/5/1297-cold1_large.jpg
http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/543/15297-frieza_second_form_super.jpg
yep


lol!


I did not think they looked THAT close.


Good find.


http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/4946/356463-14_super.png

http://images.wikia.com/dragonball/images/8/8c/KingColdFriezaIsBack.png



There are differences. King Cold doesn't have textured skin like Frieza. King Cold has bigger muscles. But that was after the "art style" had changed to a more muscular format...so I do not know how much to look into that.

King Cold's horns are textured and Frieza's are not.

Their "chest" armor is different, as well.


Other than that, they could actually pass off as each other.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, they didn't say that about King Cold.

They said that about Frieza's more powerful mecha form.

Regardless, the scientists would still know better than the Z warriors because they actually have measuring tools.
When they were sensing two big powers they mentioned one being even greater than Frieza's, and that was before Trunks even arrived on the scene. If Cold was only as strong as Frieza's 2nd form, they would've only been concerned about Frieza instead of both of them when sensing their powers. At least Piccolo would anyway, since he was able to outdo Frieza's 2nd form on Namek (and that was before fusing with Kami).

Measuring tools like scouters can only read a current power level, and can't tell when one's hiding/concealing their power like those who sense energy levels can. Therefore what the Z warriors say holds more weight than those scientists with their scouters.

Originally posted by dadudemon
If you want to discuss that, sure, but I am not interested. The context of my points were made quite clear: the movies do not count as canon.


If you want to count Cooler's 4th form, cool.


You'd still be wrong. SSJ Goku beat that version of Cooler even more easily than he beat 100 Frieza on Namek.


So, guess what? You're still wrong even if you include the movies.


Sucks being wrong in literally every point you bring up, doesn't it?
The only reason SSJ Goku was able to take out Cooler quicker than 100% Frieza was because Cooler got sent to the freakin' sun after his planet-destroying blast got send back at him as he was floating in the air. Even Broly died when sent to the sun, so it's not like Frieza would've survived being on the sun himself. Besides that, Cooler had instant transmission like Goku, another thing that puts him above Frieza as far as techniques, aside from what Cooler said about being able to gather energy much faster than his brother.

And I know Meta Cooler is not in this thread, but neither is Mecha Frieza since the 1st post made no mention of it.

Originally posted by dadudemon
So now you're arguing, without precedent, that Frieza was at a power level of 120,000,000 as a new born/hatched baby? Oh, totes, man. I am convinced by your awesome arguments. dur

Here are some facts for you:

Goku was born with a power level of 2.

Gohan had a power level of 1 at the earliest of stages.

Even the most powerful of all the "babies" we know of had a power level of 10,000: Broly. Non-canon...but still the most powerful version we know of.

So, no, there's no precedent at all to assume new borns are even close to their parents.
Well when you put it that way, there's also no precedent to assume that members of Frieza's race are born with the same kind of power level as Saiyans. That said, there's no telling how strong or weak Frieza actually was when he was first born.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Also, "True" form context, the way you're using it, is not necessarily correct. Based on the context, I could easily conclude that his true form was his first form but his last form was his final form just like SSJ 3 is the canon last form of the Saiyan's.
I'm just going by what I remember was said about Frieza's previous forms being something he just used to conceal his true power and all..

Originally posted by dadudemon
If you see another saiyan that has hair that turns upright, goes blond, has eyes go blue, and is glowing in a yellow "fire" with Ki energy, they are obviously not a super saiyan, right?

RIGHT?


A Super Saiyan has green eyes, not blue, silly.

That correction's what you get for insulting my intelligence as a Dragon Ball fan. 313 Stop being as much a dick though, srsly. You were nicer than this on our previous encounters, and I've known all about the series for like as long as you have.

Fair enough on that other stuff though, and Daizenshuu 7? You lost me there.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Oh, he is definitely part of this topic. However, your point has been destroyed about Cooler: Cooler was the one unaware that Frieza's 4th form was only at 1% and he could go 100 times more powerful.
How do you know Cooler was unaware that Frieza's final form was able to go 100 times more powerful? Regardless, I agree that Frieza's 4th form outdid Cooler's 4th form as far as comparing how each did against Goku, but with Cooler's 5th form, he beefed himself up even more than 100% Frieza, and like I said before, only reason Cooler didn't last as long as he could've was because of being sent to the sun, which can ruin anyone's day, as shown how Broly died in it.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
When they were sensing two big powers they mentioned one being even greater than Frieza's, and that was before Trunks even arrived on the scene. If Cold was only as strong as Frieza's 2nd form, they would've only been concerned about Frieza instead of both of them when sensing their powers. At least Piccolo would anyway, since he was able to outdo Frieza's 2nd form on Namek (and that was before fusing with Kami).

And my response is still the same:

"No, they didn't say that about King Cold.

They said that about Frieza's more powerful mecha form. "

In other words, they confused the new Frieza as similar to but more powerful than Frieza.

Since we have a canon answer that says King Cold is weaker, then we must justify the dub's seeming error in a way other than your incorrect perspective.



Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Measuring tools like scouters can only read a current power level, and can't tell when one's hiding/concealing their power like those who sense energy levels can. Therefore what the Z warriors say holds more weight than those scientists with their scouters.

Incorrect because of what I already stated.

"Frieza had not figured out how to hide his power. "

Your point is actually borderline non-sequitur to the portion you quoted, by the way.


Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
The only reason SSJ Goku was able to take out Cooler quicker than 100% Frieza was because Cooler got sent to the freakin' sun after his planet-destroying blast got send back at him as he was floating in the air. Even Broly died when sent to the sun, so it's not like Frieza would've survived being on the sun himself. Besides that, Cooler had instant transmission like Goku, another thing that puts him above Frieza as far as techniques, aside from what Cooler said about being able to gather energy much faster than his brother.


No, SSJ Goku tooled Cooler's final form. WAAAAAY more so than he did against Frieza. 100% Frieza and SSJ Goku were fairly even. Final form Cooler were not as Goku utterly curb-stomped him.

start at around 3:33 to see how much a SSJ Goku curb stomps Cooler.

GgOCSV_1Bsg

The other stuff you mention is meta Cooler.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
And I know Meta Cooler is not in this thread, but neither is Mecha Frieza since the 1st post made no mention of it.

Unlike Meta Cooler, Mecha Frieza is still Frieza and is called as such by the people in the anime and Manga: not the case for meta cooler.

It's not Cooler, either: it is an avatar. The real Cooler is connected/assimilated into the Gete Star's computer.




Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Well when you put it that way, there's also no precedent to assume that members of Frieza's race are born with the same kind of power level as Saiyans. That said, there's no telling how strong or weak Frieza actually was when he was first born.

Yes there is!

Frieza states the only people that have hurt him before were his parents.


This is a lie because Frieza's tail had already been cut off.

So Frieza was lying/wrong.

Additionally, there's a clear precedent that when creatures grow...they get stronger. There is no exception in the Dragonball universe.


Regardless, the entire argument is invalid: King Cold is weaker than Frieza. Cooler (real Cooler) is weaker than Frieza.



Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
I'm just going by what I remember was said about Frieza's previous forms being something he just used to conceal his true power and all.

Correct. But it was also to preserve his power and he also could not contain his immense power.


Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
A Super Saiyan has green eyes, not blue, silly.

Actually, it is greenish-blue.

It can be called turquoise, even...but never "green".


Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
That correction's what you get for insulting my intelligence as a Dragon Ball fan. 313.

You should try harder at actually being correct when you try and correct someone, though.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Stop being as much a dick though, srsly.

Calm down: don't be mad.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
You were nicer than this on our previous encounters, and I've known all about the series for like as long as you have.

I'm not sure why you would take it the opposite direction. I included plenty of stupid smilies to indicate the playful nature of my posts. The dur and laugh smilies didn't do it for you?

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Fair enough on that other stuff though, and Daizenshuu 7? You lost me there.

They are like "databooks". It is what gives us most of our facts on the Dragonball universe and it solidifies others.


It is how we know that Goku's SSJ power level is 150,000,000 and Frieza's is 120,000,000.


Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
How do you know Cooler was unaware that Frieza's final form was able to go 100 times more powerful? Regardless, I agree that Frieza's 4th form outdid Cooler's 4th form as far as comparing how each did against Goku, but with Cooler's 5th form, he beefed himself up even more than 100% Frieza, and like I said before, only reason Cooler didn't last as long as he could've was because of being sent to the sun, which can ruin anyone's day, as shown how Broly died in it.

How do I know? This one is easy: he thinks his 5th form is stronger than Frieza' (it's not) and Goku shows us that Cooler is not only wrong...he's "dead" wrong...pun fully intended.

And, no he didn't "beef" himself up more than Frieza's 100% final form.


http://images.wikia.com/dragonball/images/2/24/Cooler's_final_form.jpg


http://images.wikia.com/dragonball/images/8/88/Frieza100-03.png


Lastly, I already provided the video that shows Goku completely tooling Cooler's final form. Goku shows us that, quite clearly, Cooler's final form is not stronger than Frieza's 100% final form. I would put fifth form Cooler somewhere near Frieza's 50% level, maybe less. Goku just makes Cooler look like such a punk and Frieza actually does well against Goku until it starts to lose power.


Regardless, Cooler is not canon. He does not fit in canon. But we can make clear assessments on him.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, SSJ Goku tooled Cooler's final form. WAAAAAY more so than he did against Frieza. 100% Frieza and SSJ Goku were fairly even. Final form Cooler were not as Goku utterly curb-stomped him.
Goku was stronger when he fought Cooler on Earth than he was when he fought Frieza on Namek though. Saiyans become stronger after every battle, and also when recovering from a fatal injury. Cooler's eye laser/death beam nearly killed Goku when he allowed himself to get hit by it when he was rescuing Gohan, and when he recovered from it by taking a senzu bean, that gave him another boost/increase in power, which was why Goku did better against Cooler overall than he did against Frieza (since he wasn't as strong at the time on Namek), not so much because Cooler was weaker than Frieza...

If Cooler was weaker than Frieza too, he wouldn't of been able to gather energy faster than his brother like he said he was able to. He proved it too with how quick he was able to power up his Supernova (the blast he was gonna destroy the planet with), while Frieza took longer to power up his Death Ball when he tried using it to kill Trunks along with the Earth.

Originally posted by dadudemon
The other stuff you mention is meta Cooler.
What other stuff?

Originally posted by dadudemon
Unlike Meta Cooler, Mecha Frieza is still Frieza and is called as such by the people in the anime and Manga: not the case for meta cooler.

It's not Cooler, either: it is an avatar. The real Cooler is connected/assimilated into the Gete Star's computer.
Your point? Those versions of them are not a part of this thread regardless, as pointed out.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Actually, it is greenish-blue.

It can be called turquoise, even...but never "green".
One of the DBZ show's narrators referred to them as green during a recap of a previous episode.

Originally posted by dadudemon
They are like "databooks". It is what gives us most of our facts on the Dragonball universe and it solidifies others.

It is how we know that Goku's SSJ power level is 150,000,000 and Frieza's is 120,000,000.
Ah, okay. If that's what stated that Cold was weaker than Frieza, then I guess I'll have to concede to that.

Originally posted by dadudemon
And, no he didn't "beef" himself up more than Frieza's 100% final form.
I guess beef wasn't the best choice of words on my part. When I said that, I didn't mean so much muscle-wise, but that Cooler's 5th form made him much bigger/taller than 100% Frieza overall. Around as tall as Frieza's 2nd form or King Cold.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Goku was stronger when he fought Cooler on Earth than he was when he fought Frieza on Namek though.

Incorrect: It was taking the same Goku from Namek, and all the others, and transplanting it into a "what if" category.

It just so happens that they wrote in PIS by having the events take place and the fans are supposed to realize that. We all know that it is an impossible situation for them to be in because the events could not occur.


In those movies, they simply transplant the characters from the times that they released them, and placed them into their stories.

It is the same Goku and crew as the ones that fought on Namek.

On top of that, I would say that this version of Goku might be weaker because Piccolo was definitely weaker. Piccolo was supposed to be fighting second form frieza on even ground and that form of Frieza has a power level of over 1,000,000.

Piccolo was having trouble against all three of them and their power levels are between 163,000-185,000.


So this shows us that Goku is possibly not as strong, as well, because the "capture" of their power would have taken place before the events where Goku went SSJ.


Keep in mind that the movies simply represent a "capture" of the current state of the warriors. For movie 8, many people incorrectly assume that Goku is a full power SSJ. But he's not: if he were, both him and Gohan would have a constant state of SSJ but they don't. Vegeta's hair also does not become more "jagged" or stand on end...and he doens't bulk up as much as he does when he is in ascended form. So we can assume a couple of things: they take Vegeta and Trunks from before they entered the time chamber...but they take Goku and Gohan shortly after they entered. What does this mean? This means that they took them, at their power levels, from different portions.

So to answer the discrepency of the power levels from Piccolo without harming Goku: Piccolo was just taken from a different portion in the canon time-line.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Saiyans become stronger after every battle, and also when recovering from a fatal injury. Cooler's eye laser/death beam nearly killed Goku when he allowed himself to get hit by it when he was rescuing Gohan, and when he recovered from it by taking a senzu bean, that gave him another boost/increase in power, which was why Goku did better against Cooler overall than he did against Frieza (since he wasn't as strong at the time on Namek), not so much because Cooler was weaker than Frieza....

Goku could not transform into a super saiyan at will. He's the same as he was on Namek. If he did receive a power boost from Cooler's blast, is was marginal, at best. Cooler is just plain weaker than Frieza. So weak that his form was getting beaten on by base form Goku. The power increase from base form to SSJ is 50 times: from 3,000,000 to 120,000,000. At no point is a single recovery ever anywhere close to being 50 times improvement: it is closer to 5-20 % or marginally logrithmic as I have shown in other threads. This goes to further prove that Cooler was weaker than Frieza.

Additionally, any conclusion that cooler is stronger than Frieza is incorrect because it was explicitly stated multiple times that Frieza is the strongest in the universe: not Cooler.

Now do you see what it is difficult to argue for canon feats for non-canon characters? You'll just be proven wrong by superior canon statements or facts and that is not really a fault of yours: it's the problem of arguing canonicity versus non-canonicity: canon always wins.

Lastly, Frieza powered up 100 x stronger than his base first form when he went to 100%. Goku's base form was fairly even with that base form of Frieza's and even if you consider that Goku got a power amp of 5-20% after recovering with Cooler, it is still no where close enough to being able to contend with a power level of 120,000,000, which was Frieza's at 100%.

Even if you consider the SSJ power boost of 50 x.


It works out like this:


Goku's full powered base form against Frieza: 3,000,000.


Pretend that that was his strength against Cooler the first time (it wasn't because he was holding back and did not power up for some stupid reason). He took the death beam and almost died from it.

He is powered back up and is now at 3,600,000 of a power level IF you consider the jump to be a full 20%. That still does not come close to the 120,000,000 mark of Frieza's full powered form.


So pretend that this base form of Goku is at 3,600,000 of a power level: he is fairly even with Cooler and it pushes Cooler to the point of having to go to his next form.


But, wait...what was Frieza's power level at 1%?

AHA! It was 12,000,000.


So even when Frieza is at 1%, he's still almost 4 times stronger than COOLER!


Let's be generous and give Goku double his power level. That's still 6,000,000. Let's be more generous and say he tripled his power level. That's only 9,000,000: still weaker than Frieza's 1%.

Let's be generous and say that Goku quadrupled his power level: that's still only 12,000,000: dead even with 1% Frieza.

So what does this all add up to?


Cooler is so weak that in his original form, he's far weaker than his brother even at 1%.

Cooler even ADMITS in the movie that Frieza was constantly trying to be better than Cooler and Frieza even surpassed him. Then he says "it finally happened" and then goes on a diatribe and changes to his next form. So we know that even their competition between each other, Frieza eventually surpassed Cooler. We have no idea at what point Frieza started becoming much stronger than Cooler, however...but I would assume it was some time after Frieza destroyed planet Vegeta: that may have been the last time those two saw each other.


You want to know how I know Cooler was weaker than Goku?

He states, when Goku finally goes SSJ and starts beating Cooler down, he says, "Now I know why my brother was killed. I love it. You're too much."

Thus proving that he finally sees why Frieza was beaten by Goku. HOWEVER! That would have required Cooler know about Frieza's 100% form which it would appear he does not know about. But what we do know is this: Cooler acknowledges Goku's SSJ form as being strong enough to beat Frieza and, by extension, himself (because Goku was making Cooler look like a fool) when Goku finally went SSJ.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
If Cooler was weaker than Frieza too, he wouldn't of been able to gather energy faster than his brother like he said he was able to. He proved it too with how quick he was able to power up his Supernova (the blast he was gonna destroy the planet with), while Frieza took longer to power up his Death Ball when he tried using it to kill Trunks along with the Earth.

Because Cooler is better at one technique that they both use, that makes him automatically better in every way?

Nope: it doesn't.

Cooler also found another form beyond their true form but didn't make him any stronger than 100% Frieza: Frieza still has him vastly outclassed.


Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
What other stuff?

Go back and read my post and then read the section to which I responded to and then it will make sense.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Your point? Those versions of them are not a part of this thread regardless, as pointed out.

The point is this:

"Unlike Meta Cooler, Mecha Frieza is still Frieza and is called as such by the people in the anime and Manga: not the case for meta cooler.

It's not Cooler, either: it is an avatar. The real Cooler is connected/assimilated into the Gete Star's computer."

Mecha Frieza is still Frieza. Meta Cooler is not Cooler: he's Meta Cooler.

The comparison you tried to make failed because Frieza was still called and sensed as being Frieza by the others but it wasn't for Meta Cooler.


Regardless, it does not matter because full bio Frieza is much stronger than even full powered bio-Cooler.


Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
One of the DBZ show's narrators referred to them as green during a recap of a previous episode.

So an incorrect dub is what you're going by?

That's fine. But just realize that it is an incorrect dub.


Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Ah, okay. If that's what stated that Cold was weaker than Frieza, then I guess I'll have to concede to that.

HOOORAY!


You do not have to take my word for it. Just google search for and read the stuff from the databook that Toriyama made for us adoring fans. It took me a while to find SOME of the translated scans so I do not know how much luck you will have. About 4-5 years ago, it was easy to find. These days, it is hard to find the original book with translations. I found something last year. You could search through my posts and that may lead you to the stuff I found recently.



Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
I guess beef wasn't the best choice of words on my part. When I said that, I didn't mean so much muscle-wise, but that Cooler's 5th form made him much bigger/taller than 100% Frieza overall. Around as tall as Frieza's 2nd form or King Cold.

I will concede that Cooler in his final form is much larger than Frieza's final 100% form.

In fact, I would probably concede that Cooler's final form is better suited to fighting than Frieza's because Frieza's is too bulky and may slow him down than if he remained at 50%. But Frieza's overall strength and Ki energy would be much lower than when he's at 100% and it is the only form that could keep up with SSJ Goku...so it is probably, overall, the strongest form.


I would say that Frieza's bulked up size is not as much of a detriment as Trunk's USSJ form. If Cooler had trained more he could have surpassed Frieza's 100% form and I think it would have been faster because it is not as Bulky.

Here is a bit of Colds fight in DBM, I basically cut out the fighting part rofl, this is just so everyone can get an idea if they don't keep up with DBM because the OP did say DBM feats could be used..that being said do I think it changes the outcome? Not really I still feel Piccolo would take this

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y2/MaverickHunterZero/KingCold1.png
Fast forward a little..a bit of a fight and one broken z-sword later
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y2/MaverickHunterZero/kingcold2.png
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y2/MaverickHunterZero/kingcold3.png
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y2/MaverickHunterZero/kingcold4.png

Like 17 or 18?

Piccolo was as strong as 17 iirc. If Cold is that strong, they may actually win.

I just read all of DBM.

In directly contradicts several canon items...especially the part about King Cold being stronger than Frieza.



So which do we use? The non-canon DBM feats for cold or the canon strength level? DBM was said to be included, so best chance fits.


Based on that, we know Piccolo will lose. King Cold was said to be as strong as 18 and 17...and maybe even 16. That puts him stronger than 17. 17 was dead even with a fresh Piccolo.

Add in Frieza and Cooler and that tips it in favor towarsd Cold.


So Piccolo loses.