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The version of Michael Korvac that destroyed the universe in the famous What If takes on Thanos, Lord Mar-vell, and Void...

Fight to the Death or KO...no BFR...who wins?

Korvac dies. He was Death's pawn and she was using him from the beginning (without her help he'd be fugged). Team wrecks him.

How does the team wreck him?

This version of Korvac was able to protect himself from the wrath of the Living Tribunal, was able to one-shot kill Elders, and was able to utterly destroy the Celestials on Earth...

What can this team do to wreck him?

http://img477.imageshack.us/img477/903/61183432fs2.th.jpg http://img61.imageshack.us/img61/79/d2ec2.th.jpg

She won't be helping him this time, not with Thanos on T2.

Thanos solos.

Originally posted by zopzop
http://img477.imageshack.us/img477/903/61183432fs2.th.jpg http://img61.imageshack.us/img61/79/d2ec2.th.jpg

She won't be helping him this time, not with Thanos on T2.

She dis'ed Thanos; Thanos is nothing more than a pawn to Death just like Korvac...

Besides, does his version of Korvac really need Death simply to score a KO against these guys?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Thanos solos.

How does he solo?

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
How does he solo? Avatar of death and being immune to death.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Avatar of death and being immune to death.

Thanos can still be KO'ed...

And this version of Korvac was powerful enough to protect himself from the LT; there is absolutely nothing Thanos can do to this guy except get owned if he dares take him on one on one...

So again, how the hell does Thanos solo?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Avatar of death and being immune to death.

Who doesn't that line work against in your mind?

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Thanos can still be KO'ed...

And this version of Korvac was powerful enough to protect himself from the LT; there is absolutely nothing Thanos can do to this guy except get owned if he dares take him on one on one...

So again, how the hell does Thanos solo? Korvac can't take on the Lt so please relax. Korvac isn't powerful enough to take on Thanos either.

Thanos is powerful enough to kill him. He isn't immune to death and the likelihood of Thanos being ko'd with his mind intact against someone less powerful than a cc imo ain't happenin.
Originally posted by Cogito
Who doesn't that line work against in your mind? Off topic.

Originally posted by Cogito
Who doesn't that line work against in your mind?

His delusions know no bounds; he thinks that works against Classic Owen Reece and the Living Tribunal as well...

Originally posted by quanchi112
Off topic.

It's not off topic at all. I want you to stop hiding behind stupid one liners and justify your beliefs with facts.

If Korvac was able to hold off the LT, of which Death is a part, then what will Thanos do?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Korvac can't take on the Lt so please relax. Korvac isn't powerful enough to take on Thanos either.

Thanos is powerful enough to kill him. He isn't immune to death and the likelihood of Thanos being ko'd with his mind intact against someone less powerful than a cc imo ain't happenin.
Off topic.

Please re-read the OP; this version of Korvac ran the LT off like a frightened child; this version of Korvac was able to protect himself from the LT's judgement...

This version of Michael Korvac was powerful enough to utterly destroy The Shaper (who is a CCU, so there goes your flawed argument) and all the Celestials on Earth at the same time...

So you are dead wrong; this version of Korvac is definitely powerful enough to KO Thanos...

Originally posted by Cogito
It's not off topic at all. I want you to stop hiding behind stupid one liners and justify your beliefs with facts.

If Korvac was able to hold off the LT, of which Death is a part, then what will Thanos do? Kill him.Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Please re-read the OP; this version of Korvac ran the LT off like a frightened child; this version of Korvac was able to protect himself from the LT's judgement...

This version of Michael Korvac was powerful enough to utterly destroy The Shaper (who is a CCU, so there goes your flawed argument) and all the Celestials on Earth at the same time...

So you are dead wrong; this version of Korvac is definitely powerful enough to KO Thanos...

Thanos also defeated a cc level being and was caught off guard by a cc while his mind was feral.

I see Thanos bringing permanent death to him based off of the power death has vested in him.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Kill him.

Then why did the LT, of which Death is a part, not kill him?

Are you trying to say Thanos can do something LT cannot?

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
She dis'ed Thanos; Thanos is nothing more than a pawn to Death just like Korvac...



Thanos isn't just a pawn: he actually succeed in seducing her. Also, he's far, far away the most efficient of her "pawns". Who would you take if you were Death between Thanos and Korvac?

Thanos already conquered the universe twice, and destroyed it once (Marvel: The End). If Death has to side, she would side with Thanos, which ****ing suck for Korvac.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Kill him. Thanos also defeated a cc level being and was caught off guard by a cc while his mind was feral.

I see Thanos bringing permanent death to him based off of the power death has vested in him.

Thanos defeated an insane half Cube Being that had made itself vulnerable...

Korvac defeated a full Cube Being, Arishem, and all the other Celestials on Earth at the same time...

Once again, this version of Michael Korvac was able to protect himself from the LT; Thanos has nowhere near enough power to harm him solo...

Originally posted by Bouboumaster
Thanos isn't just a pawn: he actually succeed in seducing her. Also, he's far, far away the most efficient of her "pawns". Who would you take if you were Death between Thanos and Korvac?

Thanos already conquered the universe twice, and destroyed it once (Marvel: The End). If Death has to side, she would side with Thanos, which ****ing suck for Korvac.

Korvac in a heart beat; this version of Korvac permanently succeeded in destroying the universe...Thanos has never done so permanently.

Originally posted by Cogito
Then why did the LT, of which Death is a part, not kill him?

Are you trying to say Thanos can do something LT cannot?

Thats exactly what he's trying to say; the "wtflolololol" of his logic is hilarious...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Korvac in a heart beat; this version of Korvac permanently succeeded in destroying the universe...Thanos has never done so permanently.

This version of Korvac was under her direct protection (stated on panel in so many words). This version of Korvac destroyed an ALTERNATE reality using the UN. Thanos has conquered 616 reality multiple times in her name. Thanos avenged her honor in the Cancerverse by introducing death to it, allowing her to annihilate that universe and the Cancerwave forces that spilled over into our universe.

She is NOT siding with Korvac. Team takes this.

Originally posted by zopzop
This version of Korvac was under her direct protection (stated on panel in so many words). This version of Korvac destroyed an ALTERNATE reality using the UN. Thanos has conquered 616 reality multiple times in her name. Thanos avenged her honor in the Cancerverse by introducing death to it, allowing her to annihilate that universe and the Cancerwave forces that spilled over into our universe.

She is NOT siding with Korvac. Team takes this.

He doesnt need her help with these guys to KO them; he defeated The Shaper, Arishem, and all the rest of the Earth-bound Celestials solo...and he one-shot-killed the Inbetweener...he doesnt need Deaths assistence at all in this fight.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
He doesnt need her help with these guys to KO them; he defeated The Shaper, Arishem, and all the rest of the Earth-bound Celestials solo...and he one-shot-killed the Inbetweener...he doesnt need Deaths assistence at all in this fight.

Sure he does. He took the IB by surprise, in fact, most every time he struck down one of the cosmic council, the narration mentions this fact on panel.

He's not doing jack vs this team without Death acting as his sugar mamma.

And you ignore the fact that he gained the power of every member of the cosmic council he struck down...

This version of Korvac had all the power of the Earth bound Celestials, The Shapers power, the Strangers power, and the IB's power added to his own...

To suggest that this isnt enough power to defeat this team is ridiculous...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
And you ignore the fact that he gained the power of every member of the cosmic council he struck down...

This version of Korvac had all the power of the Earth bound Celestials, The Shapers power, the Strangers power, and the IB's power added to his own...

To suggest that this isnt enough power to defeat this team is ridiculous...

And yet he feared a space armada that was about to attack Earth. For all his power he still couldn't destroy the universe without resorting to the UN. He was very underwhelming. Half the crap he pulled on the Cosmics was because he caught them unaware and had Death's backing. That won't work on Team. Thanos isn't stupid.

Originally posted by zopzop
And yet he feared a space armada that was about to attack Earth. For all his power he still couldn't destroy the universe without resorting to the UN. He was very underwhelming. Half the crap he pulled on the Cosmics was because he caught them unaware and had Death's backing. That won't work on Team. Thanos isn't stupid.

Still doesnt change the fact that the power of the Celestials, a Full Cube Being, the IB's, the Strangers, combined with Korvacs own power is far more than enough to defeat this team...

Come on zop...Arishem could solo this team; how could they wreck someone far more powerful than Arishem?

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Still doesnt change the fact that the power of the Celestials, a Full Cube Being, the IB's, the Strangers, combined with Korvacs own power is far more than enough to defeat this team...

Come on zop...Arishem could solo this team; how could they wreck someone far more powerful than Arishem?

616 Arishem would rape this team. But we're not talking about 616 Arishem. We don't know how powerful the alternate reality version of the beings Korvac beat were. There are alt reality versions of Celestials that have KILLED two IG wielders with one blast. Fought Doom with Classic Beyonder's power combined with the IG for 435 years before dying out but wrecking the IG and exhausting Classic Beyonder's power. I could go on but you get my point. Yet other alt reality Celestials couldn't put down alt reality Ego without Blink's help!

ASSUMING these alt reality versions were just as powerful as their 616 counter parts is wrong. What makes me suspicious is the fact that the space armada had him desperate enough to whip out the UN and call it a day. The fact that he couldn't destroy the universe under his own power (and all the power he had accumulated) is just icing on the cake.

Korvac for a solid win, this guy bfrd Phoenix, Surfer and Dr. Strange with a gesture, he blocked the adjacent dimensions so Skyfathers couldn't advance against him and he restored Thor with his own power along with the Avengers. Since Korvac isn't the most stable fighter this team could keep him off balance and maybe put him in trouble, but frankly, his feats are just above the guys.

Originally posted by zopzop
616 Arishem would rape this team. But we're not talking about 616 Arishem. We don't know how powerful the alternate reality version of the beings Korvac beat were. There are alt reality versions of Celestials that have KILLED two IG wielders with one blast. Fought Doom with Classic Beyonder's power combined with the IG for 435 years before dying out but wrecking the IG and exhausting Classic Beyonder's power. I could go on but you get my point. Yet other alt reality Celestials couldn't put down alt reality Ego without Blink's help!

ASSUMING these alt reality versions were just as powerful as their 616 counter parts is wrong. What makes me suspicious is the fact that the space armada had him desperate enough to whip out the UN and call it a day. The fact that he couldn't destroy the universe under his own power (and all the power he had accumulated) is just icing on the cake.

So are you arguing that anyone that cant destroy a universe under their own power cant beat this team?

Korvac couldnt destroy the universe under his own power...big deal...he still amassed enough power simply via the number of cosmics he'd absorbed to defeat this team.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
So are you arguing that anyone that cant destroy a universe under their own power cant beat this team?

Korvac couldnt destroy the universe under his own power...big deal...he still amassed enough power simply via the number of cosmics he'd absorbed to defeat this team.

The armada was also a dead giveaway. Fact is, those were ALT reality versions of 616 beings. We have zero clue how powerful they are and we KNOW Death was aiding Korvac (he doesn't have that luxury here). Team can/will take him down.

Originally posted by zopzop
The armada was also a dead giveaway. Fact is, those were ALT reality versions of 616 beings. We have zero clue how powerful they are and we KNOW Death was aiding Korvac (he doesn't have that luxury here). Team can/will take him down.


When you have alternate versions of the Badoon slaving the entire Celestial race and a simple war between the Kree and the Sh'iar pretty much destroyed reality, you'd be wrong at downplaying every race in the universe in favor of cosmics.

Also, Korvac was a paranoid and crazy man from the very begining, you could also argue that Death fueled those personality traits so he ended everything with a bang.

Originally posted by zopzop
The armada was also a dead giveaway. Fact is, those were ALT reality versions of 616 beings. We have zero clue how powerful they are and we KNOW Death was aiding Korvac (he doesn't have that luxury here). Team can/will take him down.

With all the power he possesses, he doesnt need Death in this fight...

Agree to disagree, then...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
With all the power he possesses, he doesnt need Death in this fight...

Agree to disagree, then...

What power? We haven't even established how powerful those ALTERNATE reality versions of 616 beings were! The fact that he panicked and whipped out the UN as soon as he sensed the armada was a big clue as to how powerful he really was and this was WITH Death aiding him.

But like you said, agree to disagree.

What power??

The power to BFR pheonix, doctor strange, and the surfer...the power to lock away all the Skyfathers so that they couldnt interfer with him...the power to one-shot abstracts...I could go on, but all of this has already been stated here in this thread.

IMHO, this version of Korvac was more than powerful enough to defeat this team...

Originally posted by zopzop
What power? We haven't even established how powerful those ALTERNATE reality versions of 616 beings were! The fact that he panicked and whipped out the UN as soon as he sensed the armada was a big clue as to how powerful he really was and this was WITH Death aiding him.

But like you said, agree to disagree.


He did seal away Mephisto, Odin and a bunch of others, he also managed to restore Thor and Starhawk under his own power. Even after playing the not-616 card he is comfortably above Mar-vell and Thanos.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
What power??

The power to BFR pheonix, doctor strange, and the surfer...the power to lock away all the Skyfathers so that they couldnt interfer with him...the power to one-shot abstracts...I could go on, but all of this has already been stated here in this thread.

IMHO, this version of Korvac was more than powerful enough to defeat this team...

LoM, THOSE WERE ALT REALITY VERSIONS OF 616 BEINGS. We don't know how powerful they are.

Originally posted by zopzop
LoM, THOSE WERE ALT REALITY VERSIONS OF 616 BEINGS. We don't know how powerful they are.

That still doesn't make them powerless

Originally posted by Bentley
He did seal away Mephisto, Odin and a bunch of others, he also managed to restore Thor and Starhawk under his own power. Even after playing the not-616 card he is comfortably above Mar-vell and Thanos.

How is this impressive? Alt reality versions of Sym and Madelyne Prior sealed off their universe from all outside forces EXACTLY like Korvac did (What if Xmen Lost Inferno).

And he can only rez people he himself has killed. Not that impressive seeing as how Odin can rez whoever the hell he wants. He's not even Skyfather level in that regard.

True enough, but surely even alt versions of Celestials are stronger than Thanos, Lord Mar-vell, and Void...

Originally posted by Bentley
That still doesn't make them powerless

Still makes their power level unknown! How can one version of the Celestials annihilate TWO IG wielders yet other versions are unable to restrain a crazed Ego without Blink's help?

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
True enough, but surely even alt versions of Celestials are stronger than Thanos, Lord Mar-vell, and Void...

Speculation. Seeing as how they varied in power (from dominating MULTIPLE competent IG wielders to being on the run from Ego).

By your same reasoning the Alternate Version could be infinitely more powerful than the canon versions of said characters, so we can also admit that Korvac sh_t stomps the team.

I mean, does a version of Arishem really needs to prove he's above Thanos? ermm

Originally posted by Bentley
By your same reasoning the Alternate Version could be infinitely more powerful than the canon versions of said characters, so we can also admit that Korvac sh_t stomps the team.

I mean, does a version of Arishem really needs to prove he's above Thanos? ermm

Could be, except you fail to take into consideration his panic attack at the arrival of the Armada (that alone should tell you he wasn't all that powerful. 616 Galactus could have "herald my rage" blasted that crap into oblivion). That and the fact that he was being backed by Death (he don't have that option here).

Originally posted by zopzop
Could be, except you fail to take into consideration his panic attack at the arrival of the Armada (that alone should tell you he wasn't all that powerful. 616 Galactus could have "herald my rage" blasted that crap into oblivion). That and the fact that he was being backed by Death (he don't have that option here).

Being backed by Death isn't any kind of implicit power up, unless you can prove Death increased his powers. I mean, Avatars are backed by Abstract and their powers aren't directly intertwined with the Abstract they represent.

The Sh'iar/Kree armadas already destroyed all reality by using conventional weapons, so...

Originally posted by Bentley
Being backed by Death isn't any kind of implicit power up, unless you can prove Death increased his powers. I mean, Avatars are backed by Abstract and their powers aren't directly intertwined with the Abstract they represent.

The Sh'iar/Kree armadas already destroyed all reality by using conventional weapons, so...

And yet this version of Korvac COULD NOT despite all the "power" he had accumulated! He panicked at the sight of the armada and whipped out the UN. Doesn't that tell you something?

The narration made it clear that he was Death's tool and she was his backer. He's SOoL here since she ain't backing him.

Korvac gets wrecked.

So you have no proof of any power up? Good

So a paranoid such a Korvac freaked out by being influenced by an abstract? Color me unimpressed. This is a guy who was flailing his arms against a team comprised of metas because he was so nervous. Korvac isn't sane.

Well this version of Koravc was powerful enough to run off the LT...

And since all showings by the LT are canon, this should (bare minimum) indicate that he was well beyond the 616 versions of Void and Thanos at that point in time...

Originally posted by Nihilist
Korvac gets wrecked.

How does he get wrecked?

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
How does he get wrecked? How doesnt he?

Originally posted by Bentley
So you have no proof of any power up? Good

So a paranoid such a Korvac freaked out by being influenced by an abstract? Color me unimpressed. This is a guy who was flailing his arms against a team comprised of metas because he was so nervous. Korvac isn't sane.

This is very true!

Anyone that thinks he can achieve universal order by destroying it all has more than a few screws loose...

Originally posted by Bentley
So you have no proof of any power up? Good

So a paranoid such a Korvac freaked out by being influenced by an abstract? Color me unimpressed. This is a guy who was flailing his arms against a team comprised of metas because he was so nervous. Korvac isn't sane.

I have as much proof as you do that those cosmics he beat were anywhere near as powerful as their 616 counterparts (see on panel proof that Korvac sh|t his pants at the sight of the Armada and had to resort to using the UN despite all the cosmics he had absorbed).

Then there's this from Death's own mouth :
"The Eons-Old Stalemate between Eternity and ME has ENDED.
By MY MACHINATIONS, the UNIVERSE shall be MINE"
And the Narrator :
"DEATH--Korvac's Unbidden ALLY....
"DEATH--Korvac's UNWANTED MASTER"

Originally posted by Nihilist
How doesnt he?

By being powerful enough to protect himself from the LT?

That alone should make him invulnerable to anything this team is capable of attacking him with...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Anyone that thinks he can achieve universal order by destroying it all has more than a few screws loose...

Like the "omnipotent" Maker (who was claimed was powerful enough to reverse the energies of the Crunch and collapse the universe) that Thanos mind raped?

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
By being powerful enough to protect himself from the LT?

That alone should make him invulnerable to anything this team is capable of attacking him with... Classic Dr Strange did that, so no big deal.

Team wreck him.

Originally posted by zopzop
Like the "omnipotent" Maker (who was claimed was powerful enough to reverse the energies of the Crunch and collapse the universe) that Thanos mind raped?

Well The Maker made itself vulnerable...

Although Korvac was insane, he wasnt crazy enough to make himself vulnerable; he had enough wits to make sure his enemies couldnt harm him...

Originally posted by Nihilist
Classic Dr Strange did that, so no big deal.

Team wreck him.

How does the team get through his defenses?

How can they save themselves from someone who was able to destroy a full Cube Being and multiple Celestials simply by willing it to happen?

Who on this team can tank an attack from someone who was able to one-shot-kill the Inbetweener?

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Well The Maker made itself vulnerable...

Although Korvac was insane, he wasnt crazy enough to make himself vulnerable; he had enough wits to make sure his enemies couldnt harm him...

She still supposedly possessed enough power to reverse the Crunch yet he shut down her mind. I don't see Korvac winning a battle of whits or will against Thanos................at all.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
How does the team get through his defenses?By blasting,teleporting or magic just to name a few

Big deal Thanos pwnd a cube being and Void killed one, Alternate reality celestials are weak sauce fact.

Void one shot killed Molecule Man, Thanos tanked attacks from Magus with the IG who was maerging to universes together.

Dont bother with your pis crybaby stance its a sign of desperation.

Originally posted by zopzop
She still supposedly possessed enough power to reverse the Crunch yet he shut down her mind. I don't see Korvac winning a battle of whits or will against Thanos................at all.

He doesnt have to engage Thanos in that fashion; all he has to do is maintain his defenses and blast Thanos into oblivion...

He should definitely be capable of this...

Originally posted by zopzop
I have as much proof as you do that those cosmics he beat were anywhere near as powerful as their 616 counterparts (see on panel proof that Korvac sh|t his pants at the sight of the Armada and had to resort to using the UN despite all the cosmics he had absorbed).

We can advance in this discussion in two ways: One would be admitting that the What If versions of the characters have undefined levels and thus their appearances doesn't count as a measuring stick and hence we shouldn't be discussed about them at all. It's a legitimate claim, but it beats the propose of the thread.

Or we can assume that the characters depicted are more or less as the usual characters unless the showings don't do them justice, in which case most proof would be heavily in Korvac's favor. So if we are actually discussing this, the only reasonable way of doing it is admitting Korvac has that kind of power, or going our way and ignoring this thread altogether. Either way I don't feel my claims are off.


Originally posted by zopzop
Then there's this from Death's own mouth :
"The Eons-Old Stalemate between Eternity and ME has ENDED.
By MY MACHINATIONS, the UNIVERSE shall be MINE"
And the Narrator :
"DEATH--Korvac's Unbidden ALLY....
"DEATH--Korvac's UNWANTED MASTER"

Personally I think that Death affected Korvac by using his mental unstability, she manipulated him into destroying the universe by her "machinations" and not her by using power.

(Now I will speculate for the sake of speculation) IF, we were to delve into Korvac's personality, and we took it's combat against Captain America (Captain America v3 methinks), we would see that Korvac wanted a peaceful universe that was controlled and worked as a clock. When the entire universe went against him, his goal was entirely off limits, no subtle manipulation would achieve his perfect control over the universe. Then he simply busts the board.

Originally posted by Nihilist
By blasting,teleporting or magic just to name a few

Big deal Thanos pwnd a cube being and Void killed one, Alternate reality celestials are weak sauce fact.

Void one shot killed Molecule Man, Thanos tanked attacks from Magus with the IG who was maerging to universes together.

Dont bother with your pis crybaby stance its a sign of desperation.

Thanos beat a half cube that made itself vulnerable; you Thanos whores always conviently dont bother to mention circumstance...

Void killed a being with a sliver of the power of a CCU; again, your omission of the facts border on out right lying...

Korvac destroyed a full Cube Being simply by willing it to occur; huge difference between what Void and Thanos did...

Alternate Reality Celestials arent always weak; didnt they destroy IG users at one point? LoL...

There is no need to be desperate with dealing with someone whose face looks like an ugly humans anus!

Originally posted by Bentley
We can advance in this discussion in two ways: One would be admitting that the What If versions of the characters have undefined levels and thus their appearances doesn't count as a measuring stick and hence we shouldn't be discussed about them at all. It's a legitimate claim, but it beats the propose of the thread.

Or we can assume that the characters depicted are more or less as the usual characters unless the showings don't do them justice, in which case most proof would be heavily in Korvac's favor. So if we are actually discussing this, the only reasonable way of doing it is admitting Korvac has that kind of power, or going our way and ignoring this thread altogether. Either way I don't feel my claims are off.

Your claims are off because he couldn't even handle the armada without resorting to the UN. He couldn't destroy the universe without resorting to the UN.

We have alt reality versions of the PF destroying universes using nothing but it's own power. Yet Korvac couldn't accomplish this despite the power of the IB, the earth bound Celestials, the Shaper, Korvac's own power he stole from Galactus' ship, the Stranger's power, the Gardener, the Grandmaster, everyone on planet earth, Carina, etc... With ALL of that he couldn't deal with a space armada without resorting to the UN.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
He doesnt have to engage Thanos in that fashion; all he has to do is maintain his defenses and blast Thanos into oblivion...

He should definitely be capable of this...

Thanos can't die, though he can be KOed. Mar-vell can't die, though he can be KOed. Void can't die, though he can be KOed. Good luck with that Korvac.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Thanos beat a half cube that made itself vulnerable; you Thanos whores always conviently dont bother to mention circumstance...

Void killed a being with a sliver of the power of a CCU; again, your omission of the facts border on out right lying...

Korvac destroyed a full Cube Being simply by willing it to occur; huge difference between what Void and Thanos did...


A few things:

Maker was a FULL Cube Being, at that point Beyonder and MM had already merged to form Kosmos.

MM with a sliver of a Cube's power owned Full Cube Being Beyonder, yet died vs Void.

Korvac beat a Cube Being from an ALTERNATE reality. Void and Thanos owned 616 reality versions of their opponents, so they get the benefit of the doubt.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Thanos beat a half cube that made itself vulnerable; you Thanos whores always conviently dont bother to mention circumstance...Lie, with no proof to back it up about a half cube

Second lie with no proof.

Void beat a cube at its own game

you havent even read the story, cos if you had you wouldnt use that as a example.

Is that supposed to be a insult/flame? because that is a weak as your whole argument...a 10yr old could come back with better shit than that, then again they would still prolly be older than you

Originally posted by zopzop
Your claims are off because he couldn't even handle the armada without resorting to the UN. He couldn't destroy the universe without resorting to the UN.

We have alt reality versions of the PF destroying universes using nothing but it's own power. Yet Korvac couldn't accomplish this despite the power of the IB, the earth bound Celestials, the Shaper, Korvac's own power he stole from Galactus' ship, the Stranger's power, the Gardener, the Grandmaster, everyone on planet earth, Carina, etc... With ALL of that he couldn't deal with a space armada without resorting to the UN.

You already explained this yourself, Death manipulated him into using the UN, he's a paranoid who dreams of control and he saw everything in chaos against him. Korvac has downplayed his powers everytime he's scared, so you take the armada battle as a logical and sure measuring stick?

Originally posted by zopzop
Thanos can't die, though he can be KOed. Mar-vell can't die, though he can be KOed. Void can't die, though he can be KOed. Good luck with that Korvac. LOM prolly doesnt even know Starlord with a CC couldnt ko a weak Thanos.

Originally posted by Bentley
You already explained this yourself, Death manipulated him into using the UN, he's a paranoid who dreams of control and he saw everything in chaos against him. Korvac has downplayed his powers everytime he's scared, so you take the armada battle as a logical and sure measuring stick?

Why would he NEED the UN? Killing something is killing something. If he really had all that power, he could have wiped out the armada and the universe using nothing but the power he had already accumulated, hell he should have at least been able to wipe the armada. But no, the first thing he though of when the armada came barreling down on him was the UN.

The guy had a hard time beating Captain America, he isn't adapted to use those powers when he's crapping his pants.

Also Death manipulated him into using the UN, you brought the on panel proof yourself.

(Gotta go to sleep for today, will answer tomorrow)

Originally posted by zopzop
A few things:

Maker was a FULL Cube Being, at that point Beyonder and MM had already merged to form Kosmos.

MM with a sliver of a Cube's power owned Full Cube Being Beyonder, yet died vs Void.

Korvac beat a Cube Being from an ALTERNATE reality. Void and Thanos owned 616 reality versions of their opponents, so they get the benefit of the doubt.

The Maker was not a full Cube; when left Owen and a portion of its power left with him...

The Beyonder jobbed to Owen...

The Alternate Shaper could have been stronger, weaker, or equal to 616 Shaper...your speculation to its power level is no better than anyone elses.

Originally posted by Bentley
The guy had a hard time beating Captain America, he isn't adapted to use those powers when he's crapping his pants.

Also Death manipulated him into using the UN, you brought the on panel proof yourself.

(Gotta go to sleep for today, will answer tomorrow)

Yup, because he didn't have the power to do it on his own. He couldn't down the armada or the universe without the UN.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
The Maker was not a full Cube; Owen and a portion of its power left with him when it became Kosmos...

The Beyonder jobbed to Owen...

The Alternate Shaper could have been stronger, weaker, or equal to 616 Shaper...your speculation to its power level is no better than anyone elses.

No the Maker WAS a full cube being. It was Kosmos' new form. Kosmos was the FULL Cube being that formed when MM and Beyonder merged back in that FF issue.

If the Beyonder jobbed then so did Kubik, because he didn't even want to face Owen and admitted he would lose.

Exactly, so using ALT Shaper as proof of anything is wrong.

Originally posted by Nihilist
LOM prolly doesnt even know Starlord with a CC couldnt ko a weak Thanos.

Korvac could simply manipulate these guys into subduing Thanos:

Originally posted by zopzop
No the Maker WAS a full cube being. It was Kosmos' new form. Kosmos was the FULL Cube being that formed when MM and Beyonder merged back in that FF issue.

If the Beyonder jobbed then so did Kubik, because he didn't even want to face Owen and admitted he would lose.

Exactly, so using ALT Shaper as proof of anything is wrong.

And Owen eventually was separted from Kosmos; when this happened, a significant portion of Kosmos's power went with Owen...

That event with Kubik was during Molecule Man unleashed; that was messy PIS...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Korvac could simply manipulate these guys into subduing Thanos: lulz Having to use a non cannon story, yeah i just owned the crap outta you desperado.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
And Owen eventually was separted from Kosmos; when this happened, a significant portion of Kosmos's power went with Owen...

That event with Kubik was during Molecule Man unleashed; that was messy PIS...

No it didn't LoM. A FRAGMENT of a FRAGMENT is what Owen hid inside Marsha according to Doom and admitted by MM.

The fact remains Owen with his "fragment of a fragment" powers defeated Full Cube Being Beyonder and punked Kubik yet DIED vs Void.

Originally posted by Nihilist
lulz Having to use a non cannon story, yeah i just owned the crap outta you desperado.

Thanos fears the judicial system:

Originally posted by zopzop
No it didn't LoM. A FRAGMENT of a FRAGMENT is what Owen hid inside Marsha according to Doom and admitted by MM.

The fact remains Owen with his "fragment of a fragment" powers defeated Full Cube Being Beyonder and punked Kubik yet DIED vs Void.

Which was incredible PIS as pertains beating the Beyonder...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Thanos fears the judicial system: Concession accepted, Thread over...LOM OWNED HARD.

Originally posted by Nihilist
Concession accepted, Thread over...LOM OWNED HARD.

All you have to do to beat Thanos is equip your car with a siren and flashing red and blue lights; that will cause Thanos to BFR himself and never return...

Originally posted by Cogito
Then why did the LT, of which Death is a part, not kill him?

Are you trying to say Thanos can do something LT cannot? Lt kills him in a forum fight just like Darkseid can bfr Doomsday in a forum fight despite not doing so in hunter prey. If you cannot understand this I feel for ya.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Thanos defeated an insane half Cube Being that had made itself vulnerable...

Korvac defeated a full Cube Being, Arishem, and all the other Celestials on Earth at the same time...

Once again, this version of Michael Korvac was able to protect himself from the LT; Thanos has nowhere near enough power to harm him solo... Thanos easily defeated a cube being while being far less powerful than the avatar of death.

Alternate versions aren't that impressive, honestly.

Originally posted by zopzop
Yup, because he didn't have the power to do it on his own. He couldn't down the armada or the universe without the UN.


Again, Korvac always holds back and craps on his on power, and while being manipulated by Death into busting the universe, you freely believe that's a true indication of his power level.

Wasn't it implied than when fighting the armada Korvac was truly facing Eternity anyways?

Originally posted by Bentley

Wasn't it implied than when fighting the armada Korvac was truly facing Eternity anyways?

Was it? Eternity didn't even acknowledge Koravc till he pulled the trigger, that's how far beneath him he was.

Originally posted by zopzop
Was it? Eternity didn't even acknowledge Koravc till he pulled the trigger, that's how far beneath him he was.


During the Korvac saga Michael mentions Eternity twice, arguing that it will send everything she has to fight him, then, Eternity is seen beaten as a result of the battle -Korvac didn't fire the UN against the armada, but against Eternity itself-. Then Death mentions that she plotted through Korvac against Eternity.

Originally posted by Bentley
During the Korvac saga Michael mentions Eternity twice, arguing that it will send everything she has to fight him, then, Eternity is seen beaten as a result of the battle -Korvac didn't fire the UN against the armada, but against Eternity itself-. Then Death mentions that she plotted through Korvac against Eternity.

That was because Korvac was using his cosmic awareness to get to know the entirety of the universe before firing off the UN. The UN requires an understanding of the object/person you want to nullify before you fire it off. Eternity wasn't even on his mind at first, it was the Armada. Only when he started using his CA to boost his understanding of his target (the universe he was about to destroy) did he see Eternity.

Originally posted by zopzop
That was because Korvac was using his cosmic awareness to get to know the entirety of the universe before firing off the UN. The UN requires an understanding of the object/person you want to nullify before you fire it off. Eternity wasn't even on his mind at first, it was the Armada. Only when he started using his CA to boost his understanding of his target (the universe he was about to destroy) did he see Eternity.


He already knew he was against every living being in the Universe before he wiped the Nullifier out -just a few panels after he detected the armada-, as I said, it is implied that he was fighting Eternity at that very point, just later it is revealed this to be the case -when he uses Cosmic Awareness-.

Originally posted by Bentley
He already knew he was against every living being in the Universe before he wiped the Nullifier out -just a few panels after he detected the armada-, as I said, it is implied that he was fighting Eternity at that very point, just later it is revealed this to be the case -when he uses Cosmic Awareness-.

No, he said something like, "I'm the most powerful being in this universe. I'm more powerful than any being in the universe but I'm not more powerful than every being in the universe". This after he drained everyone on Earth and says that he feels hate, "hate for an unrelenting universe".

Just as he says this "an armada from every star faring race in the universe appears". He panicked because he knew they were coming for him. Only when he started to use his CA, it's then that he senses Eternity. It's right there on panel.

Here he is addressing them (the ships of the armada) directly :
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/67610/1914358-page_37_super.jpg
He told them to desist in their attack or he'd use it. Why would he do that? Because he feared them.

Here he is finally discovering Eternity after using his cosmic awareness :
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/67610/1914359-page_38_super.jpg
The armada didn't back down and he panicked and lashed out with the UN.

Every being in the Universe already hints towards the suspicion of Eternity, and Korvac wiped out the UN with the explicit goal of destroying the Universe. This is linked with several mentions of Eternity during the Korvac saga.

If you read the CA feat, you'll notice that at no point Korvac "discovers" Eternity, he intended to attack on Eternity since the beginning, he was simply taking aim.

Originally posted by Bentley
Every being in the Universe already hints towards the suspicion of Eternity, and Korvac wiped out the UN with the explicit goal of destroying the Universe. This is linked with several mentions of Eternity during the Korvac saga.

If you read the CA feat, you'll notice that at no point Korvac "discovers" Eternity, he intended to attack on Eternity since the beginning, he was simply taking aim.

It's right there on panel that he was addressing the armada comprised of every star faring race in the universe, that scene occurred literally RIGHT AFTER his "i'm more powerful" speech. It's further cemented by the fact that he needed to use the UN to threaten them and didn't even attempt to fight them off using his own power.

He didn't notice Eternity till after he was deep in though contemplating the universe with his CA. Again that's right there on panel. He made good on his threat to use the UN to destroy the universe because the armada didn't back off, as he was sensing the vastness of the universe and stuff he glimpses Eternity (and Death). Then he pulls the trigger.

He also said "the universe will pay for not letting my dream continue", he was already fixed in destroying the Universe when he realized it would oppose him until the end.

You said that he didn't notice Eternity but at no point the narration expresses surprise nor discovery when he sees Eternity, he was aiming at it -the entire universe- from the get to go. This is even mentioned during his speech.

Originally posted by Bentley
He also said "the universe will pay for not letting my dream continue", he was already fixed in destroying the Universe when he realized it would oppose him until the end.

You said that he didn't notice Eternity but at no point the narration expresses surprise nor discovery when he sees Eternity, he was aiming at it -the entire universe- from the get to go. This is even mentioned during his speech.



That was my perception as well; that Armada was simply a manifestation of Eternity coming after Korvac...

I think that it's pointless to debate on thanos and darkseid in vs forums. Both are characters who had a comics published to just retcon their low showings! Thanos fans would never admit that he would lose against any opponent. That's in built in the character itself, Thanos hasn't lost even once against anyone. So I just ignore all threads including him, not by any hate or anything mind you. He is just unbeatable in these forums.

Originally posted by abhilegend
I think that it's pointless to debate on thanos and darkseid in vs forums. Both are characters who had a comics published to just retcon their low showings! Thanos fans would never admit that he would lose against any opponent. That's in built in the character itself, Thanos hasn't lost even once against anyone. So I just ignore all threads including him, not by any hate or anything mind you. He is just unbeatable in these forums.

Thanos got beat up by Odin:

^But he never lost against odin.

Originally posted by abhilegend
^But he never lost against odin.

Thats an opinion that not everyone agrees with...

In my opinion, bringing someone to their knees and allowing said opponent to rise (over the course of 7 panels; during which time Odin took no action against Thanos) is clearly a victory...

In my opinion, its no different than beating up your little brother; no matter how much more he wants afterwards, after you beat him into the ground you demostrated that he was no match for you...

Originally posted by abhilegend
^But he never lost against odin.

Originally posted by Bentley
He also said "the universe will pay for not letting my dream continue", he was already fixed in destroying the Universe when he realized it would oppose him until the end.

You said that he didn't notice Eternity but at no point the narration expresses surprise nor discovery when he sees Eternity, he was aiming at it -the entire universe- from the get to go. This is even mentioned during his speech. Originally posted by TheLordofMurder


That was my perception as well; that Armada was simply a manifestation of Eternity coming after Korvac...

That's REALLY reading into the comic, something that wasn't there.

Here he is CLEARLY agitated by the coming of the armada :
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/802/page35.jpg/
Then he panics and drains the planet and goes to challenge them, notice the narration "DESPERATELY Korvac...." :
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/233/page36.jpg/
Then he tells them to back off or he'll use the UN, he's ADDRESSING the armada not Eternity (notice he doesn't threaten them with his own power but has to resort to using the UN :
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/67610/1914358-page_37_super.jpg
Then as he contemplates the universe, he FINALLY discovers Eternity (as the living embodiment of the Universe and he glimpses Death), then with full understanding of how the universe works(notice the scan says "AT LAST KORVAC BECOMES ONE WITH THE VERY UNIVERSE WITH THE SPIRIT OF ETERNITY", he fires the UN :
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/67610/1914359-page_38_super.jpg

As you can see from ON PANEL EVIDENCE, he feared the armada (it even said he was "DESPERATE", he had to resort to threatening them with the UN, he contemplates the universe THEN he discovers Eternity and glimpses Death, then after he understands how the universe works, he fires the UN.

I don't see how we're reading too much into this, as the Eternity intrusion is mentioned several times during the Korvac saga. The interpretation is backed by several on panel instances, including future depictions of the Korvac character and the very notion that Death influnce is better accounted by this explanation.

As I said it is hinted. If you're looking for something explicitly said, you won't find it, but the combat between Eternity and Death is as explicit as it comes.

Frankly, I'll go as far as to say that my solution is more simple and elegant.

Originally posted by Bentley
I don't see how we're reading too much into this, as the Eternity intrusion is mentioned several times during the Korvac saga. The interpretation is backed by several on panel instances, including future depictions of the Korvac character and the very notion that Death influnce is better accounted by this explanation.

As I said it is hinted. If you're looking for something explicitly said, you won't find it, but the combat between Eternity and Death is as explicit as it comes.

Frankly, I'll go as far as to say that my solution is more simple and elegant.

Prior to Korvac sensing Eternity using his CA, where is it mentioned that Eternity is even AWARE of Korvac's presence and vise versa? Eternity wasn't even at the council of cosmics that met to deal with Korvac.

Fact is, Korvac sensed the armada entering Earth's system and panicked. It states so on panel. He addresses them and tells them to depart, not Eternity, he was speaking DIRECTLY to the ships that comprised the armada. He only finally saw Eternity and Death when he used his CA to contemplate the universe in it's entirety. It's right there on panel, I don't understand why this is so hard.

Originally posted by Bentley

He also said "the universe will pay for not letting my dream continue", he was already fixed in destroying the Universe when he realized it would oppose him until the end.


There's a little more to his reasons which I'll add with the scans.

Also, I read along this thread of claims that Korvac needed Death.

While it's true, Death played a mysterious role in Korvac's adventure,
there's is no indication of any kind that supposes Korvac's power and the level he reached
were dependent on Death.

The story's a "What if" and from 1982 no less, so inconsistencies will occur,
but Korvac was ridiculously powerful in that issue, but not more powerful than the LT,
regardless of PIS, we know the LT never directly attacked Korvac,
but we do know the LT not only trapped Korvac in his universe
but the LT also completely detached his Universe from the Multiverse.

Korvac was defeating Multiversal power in that story,
or the "mighty of the Multiverse" as the issue literally states.

Why would Korvac need to use the UN to erase himself and the Universe he swore would pay from ever existence?

1. Good ol' "What if" horse shit is one excuse.

2. He couldn't erase himself? hm

3. ... uhh, "What If" horse shit?

Originally posted by Mr Master


The story's a "What if" and from 1982 no less, so inconsistencies will occur,
but Korvac was ridiculously powerful in that issue, but not more powerful than the LT,
regardless of PIS, we know the LT never directly attacked Korvac,
but we do know the LT not only trapped Korvac in his universe
but the LT also completely detached his Universe from the Multiverse.

Korvac was defeating Multiversal power in that story,
or the "mighty of the Multiverse" as the issue literally states.

"Multiversal powers" confined to ONE alternate universe?

"Ridiculously powerful" yet couldn't deal with a space armada and needed to resort to threatening them with the UN?

Originally posted by zopzop
Prior to Korvac sensing Eternity using his CA, where is it mentioned that Eternity is even AWARE of Korvac's presence and vise versa?

Are you kidding me?

Read Avengers 177, or you know the Korvac Saga, which this What If follows incredibly closely, addressing the afore mentioned points.

Originally posted by Bentley
Are you kidding me?

Read Avengers 177, or you know the Korvac Saga, which this What If follows incredibly closely, addressing the afore mentioned points.

IT'S AN ALTERNATE REALITY. Who knows how close it follows 616 reality. Korvac NEVER mentioned Eternity and Eternity NEVER acknowledged Korvac in that WHAT IF issue. Why bring 616 reality into this?

The Reality diverged from the events in Avengers #177

Originally posted by zopzop

IT'S AN ALTERNATE REALITY. Who knows how close it follows 616 reality.
Actually it's a diverged/alternate reality

So, it follows the historical events of 616 up to the point of divergence.

Reality-82432 (Korvac's Universe) is an exact replica of 616

Reality-82432 diverged (came into existence) from the events in Avengers #177 (Reality 616)

Originally posted by zopzop

Why bring 616 reality into this?
Because without 616, this Reality would never have diverged.

Originally posted by Mr Master
The Reality diverged from the events in Avengers #177


Actually it's a diverged/alternate reality

So, it follows the historical events of 616 up to the point of divergence.

Reality-82432 (Korvac's Universe) is an exact replica of 616

Reality-82432 diverged (came into existence) from the events in Avengers #177 (Reality 616)


Because without 616, this Reality would never have diverged.

The fact that 616 Korvac was enraged when the Avengers blew his spot by engaging him and the mighty of the universe were now aware of his presence (this included Eternity no?),
http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/9724/korvaccoalitionzo2.th.jpg
yet in this reality Korvac doesn't even acknowledge Eternity and vise versa till the very end when Korvac uses his CA to gain complete understanding of the universe before firing off the UN. Hell, Eternity isn't even in the cosmic council gathered to deal with Korvac in that very issue! Please, just stop.

You misunderstand me, I'm not trying to sway your personal perspective,
I'm only ging you the facts.
Originally posted by Mr Master

Korvac's Universe is a diverged/alternate reality

So, it follows the historical events of 616 up to the point of divergence.

Reality-82432 (Korvac's Universe) is an exact replica of 616

Reality-82432 diverged (came into existence) from the events in Avengers #177 (Reality 616)
You don't have to accept that,
but you also can't dispute that with anything other than intransigence.

Because no offense but again, those are the facts.

Originally posted by Mr Master
You misunderstand me, I'm not trying to sway your personal perspective,
I'm only ging you the facts.

You don't have to accept that,
but you also can't dispute that with anything other than intransigence.

Because no offense but again, those are the facts.

No offense, but those are NOT the facts. Check the scan where 616 Korvac was enraged that the Avengers exposed him to the mighty of the universe by forcing his hand, this included Eternity (he's in the freaking scan). Yet the What If version of Korvac made NO mention of Eterntiy and Eternity took no notice of What if Korvac till the very end when Korvac used his CA and fired off the UN.

How could that be if the What if Universe followed 616 reality till the point of Korvac's suicide, since the assault by the Avengers and his coming out of hiding happened PRIOR to him committing suicide and he'd be spotted by Eternity? Obviously these two realities couldn't be the EXACT same till the point of Korvac's suicide.

Originally posted by zopzop

No offense, but those are NOT the facts.
Actually, they are.
Originally posted by zopzop

How could that be if the What if Universe followed 616 reality till the point of Korvac's suicide, since the assault by the Avengers and his coming out of hiding happened PRIOR to him committing suicide and he'd be spotted by Eternity?

Obviously these two realities couldn't be the EXACT same till the point of Korvac's suicide.


Bottomline:

Here's the Watcher at the beginning of the "What if" stating the facts.

What happened in 616:

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/9736855_Kor1.jpg


How what happened in 616, perpetuated the divergence of Korvac's What if reality:

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/9736864_Kor2.jpg


It's the exact same reality, (copy of 616) sharing the exact same history, till the point of divergence.

The artist even goes out of his way
to artistically depict panels occurring in 616 with the "What If" scenario identically.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Actually, they are.



Bottomline:

Here's the Watcher at the beginning of the "What if" stating the facts.

What happened in 616:

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/9736855_Kor1.jpg


How what happened in 616, perpetuated the divergence of Korvac's What if reality:

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/9736864_Kor2.jpg


It's the exact same reality, (copy of 616) sharing the exact same history, till the point of divergence.

The artist even goes out of his way
to artistically depict panels occurring in 616 with the "What If" scenario identically.

Then how the hell does that explain the fact that Korvac took great pains to hide himself from Eternity and other cosmics (an important point in the 616 Korvac storyline) and was enraged when the Avengers forced his hand and he was exposed. It shows Eternity right there ON PANEL as becoming aware of Korvac's presence. They fight and then Korvac commits suicide (before the 90s retcon). This is 616 reality.

If the What If world ONLY difference was the fact that Korvac did NOT kill himself, how do you explain Eternity's lack of interest in What If Korvac and Korvac's lack of interest in Eternity?

Korvac's coming out happened BEFORE his suicide, so that would be shared by BOTH realities, if according to you they were exactly the same at that point. This makes Eternity's lack of interest in What if Korvac all the more mysterious since he was aware of him and the danger he posed in 616 reality! He wasn't even at the cosmic council that met to deal with What If Korvac.

Answer:

It was 1982.

^^

Originally posted by zopzop
Then how the hell does that explain the fact that Korvac took great pains to hide himself from Eternity and other cosmics (an important point in the 616 Korvac storyline) and was enraged when the Avengers forced his hand and he was exposed. It shows Eternity right there ON PANEL as becoming aware of Korvac's presence. They fight and then Korvac commits suicide (before the 90s retcon). This is 616 reality.

If the What If world ONLY difference was the fact that Korvac did NOT kill himself, how do you explain Eternity's lack of interest in What If Korvac and Korvac's lack of interest in Eternity?

Korvac's coming out happened BEFORE his suicide, so that would be shared by BOTH realities, if according to you they were exactly the same at that point. This makes Eternity's lack of interest in What if Korvac all the more mysterious since he was aware of him and the danger he posed in 616 reality! He wasn't even at the cosmic council that met to deal with What If Korvac.
Who said or where is it said that Eternity did or didn't notice Korvac in the "What If or vise versa?"

Goodness I don't think Gruenwald (writer of both stories)
needed to repeat in the "What If" every single detail to get the point across.

As far as Eternity not being there, his name was mentioned atleast 4 times in the "What If"
yet that aside, who cares, we KNOW Korvac was stomping cosmics,
and Lord Chaos/ Master Order and the Living Tribunal were there, and Death was part of the game.

So, it's logical for me to conclude that indeed Eternity was aware when the time came,
cause after all,
it's Eternity's balance & even existence getting raped here so I don't see how that would go unnoticed.

Anyway,
it was the mightiest Cosmics of the Multiverse in history (upto 1982) that came after Korvac:

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/9738078_Kor6.jpg


Perhaps this is why even "Jesus" was unable to enter Korvac's Reality:

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/9738079_Kor3.jpg


Bottom right.

Originally posted by Mr Master
^^


Who said or where is it said that Eternity did or didn't notice Eternity in the "What If or vise versa?"

Goodness I don't think Gruenwald (writer of both stories)
needed to repeat in the "What If" every single detail to get the point across.

As far as Eternity not being there, his name was mentioned atleast 4 times in the "What If"
yet that aside, who cares, we KNOW Korvac was stomping cosmics,
and Lord Chaos/ Master Order and the Living Tribunal were there, and Death was part of the game.

So, it's logical for me to conclude that indeed Eternity was aware when the time came,
cause after all,
it's Eternity's balance & even existence getting raped here so I don't see how that would go unnoticed.

Anyway,
it was the mightiest Cosmics of the Multiverse in history (upto 1982) that came after Korvac:

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/9738078_Kor6.jpg


Perhaps this is why even "Jesus" was unaable to enter Korvac's Reality:

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/9738079_Kor3.jpg


Bottom right.

Then why wasn't Eternity there at the council that met to deal with Korvac? 616 Korvac SPECIFICALLY hid himself because he feared being discovered by the cosmics and this included Eternity! Whoops!

The Mighty of the Multiverse that were SEALED OFF in that universe by the Living Tribunal and then nullified by the UN? How does that make sense? What was going on in all the other alternate realities that make up the rest of the multiverse?

These were alternate reality versions of 616 beings. We have ZERO clue how they compare to their 616 counterparts in terms of power.

And why is that feat including Jesus so impressive? Sym and Madelyne Prior accomplished that in What If Xmen Lost Inferno. So he was assed out at least twice

Originally posted by zopzop

Then why wasn't Eternity there at the council that met to deal with Korvac?
616 Korvac SPECIFICALLY hid himself because he feared being discovered by the cosmics
and this included Eternity!
Whoops!
And? ...

Why don't you email Mark Gruenwald and ask him?

Or, we can just stick to an accam's razor point of view
and realize a "What If" will always have inconsistencies.

That aside, perhaps Mark didn't involve Eternity in the stompage
because Eternity was to be stomped anyway at the end, which was integral to the story.

Who knows,
what we do know for a FACT
is that Reality-82432 (Korvac's world) is a Universe that diverged from Avengers #177.

Because of this,
Reality-82432 is a copy of Reality-616 in every way up until the point of divergence.

This is a Marvel Comics fact:

Divergent Earth: (Divergent Universe) --



http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/9741494_divergedg0.jpg

"Alternate Earth which was once parallel to Earth-616,
until a change altered how it's history unfolded."


Originally posted by zopzop

The Mighty of the Multiverse that were SEALED OFF in that universe by the Living Tribunal
and then nullified by the UN?

How does that make sense?
Actually, before the LT sealed off that Reality,
the mighty of the Mutliverse fell and were all absorbed by Korvac.
Originally posted by zopzop

What was going on in all the other alternate realities that make up the rest of the multiverse?


The same thing that was going on, that went on and goes on.

Once Korvac nullified himself,
all his actions were unmade, so everything went back to the way it was, except his Reality ofcourse
which he also erased from ever having been.
Originally posted by zopzop

These were alternate reality versions of 616 beings.
We have ZERO clue how they compare to their 616 counterparts in terms of power.
Nah, we have definitive proof cause we KNOW it's an "alternate" reality that diverged from 616.

Therefore, it's an exact copy of 616 upto the point of divergence.

If you refuse to accept this fact, there's nothing else to debate about.


Now, as far as comparison go, everything in Korvac's realm was exactly the same as in 616.

At that time in 1982, there was absolutely NO difference whatsoever.
But sometime later till now,
the difference has become that the 616 abstracts represent the core of their totalities,
giving occurrences within 616
possibly a universal/multiversal/megaversal/or even omniversal significance.
Originally posted by zopzop

And why is that feat including Jesus so impressive? Sym and Madelyne Prior accomplished that in What If Xmen Lost Inferno. So he was assed out at least twice
I wasn't providing that as a feat to praise, I just thought it was funny Mark included "Jesus" in the mix.

That side, Sym and Madelyne's barrier was not there to prevent Cosmics,
as we saw Phoenix enter effortlessly.
It did prove affective against sorcerer level power like the human mystics that tried to penetrate.

On top of that, it only enveloped the planet,
while Korvac's blanketed his entire Universe.

Phoenix got booted from Korvac's reality
and even the combined power of Silver Surfer/Dr Strange and Phoenix
were unable to budge Korvac's barrier.

So I'll go with Korvac's barrier being infinitely more impressive.

Originally posted by Mr Master
And? ...

Why don't you email Mark Gruenwald and ask him?

Or, we can just stick to an accam's razor point of view
and realize a "What If" will always have inconsistencies.

That aside, perhaps Mark didn't involve Eternity in the stompage
because Eternity was to be stomped anyway at the end, which was integral to the story.

Who knows,
what we do know for a FACT
is that Reality-82432 (Korvac's world) is a Universe that diverged from Avengers #177.

Because of this,
Reality-82432 is a copy of Reality-616 in every way up until the point of divergence.

This is a Marvel Comics fact:

Divergent Earth: (Divergent Universe) --



http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/9741494_divergedg0.jpg

"Alternate Earth which was once parallel to Earth-616,
until a change altered how it's history unfolded."



Actually, before the LT sealed off that Reality,
the mighty of the Mutliverse fell and were all absorbed by Korvac.



The same thing that was going on, that went on and goes on.

Once Korvac nullified himself,
all his actions were unmade, so everything went back to the way it was, except his Reality ofcourse
which he also erased from ever having been.

Nah, we have definitive proof cause we KNOW it's an "alternate" reality that diverged from 616.

Therefore, it's an exact copy of 616 upto the point of divergence.

If you refuse to accept this fact, there's nothing else to debate about.


Now, as far as comparison go, everything in Korvac's realm was exactly the same as in 616.

At that time in 1982, there was absolutely NO difference whatsoever.
But sometime later till now,
the difference has become that the 616 abstracts represent the core of their totalities,
giving occurrences within 616
possibly a universal/multiversal/megaversal/or even omniversal significance.

Your explanation is BS. The LT himself said that he was sealing Korvac and the other cosmics in that universe to stop the insanity from spreading. Order and Chaos even contemplated leaving before he sealed off the universe off but decided to stay because "other universes have their own ORder and Chaos". It wasn't multiversal AT ALL. It's right here on panel!
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/3710/page34e.th.jpg






WTH are you talking about? Sym and Madelyne's barrier was exactly like the one Korvac set up to keep Gods and Demons from entering into their universe, not to keep Cosmics that are already in the universe out. Where did you get that idea from!?
http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/5921/page07h.th.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/7/73437/1743755-realmultiversalthreat_super.jpg


The LT put up a barrier that sealed off that entire universe from the rest of the multiverse not just adjacent godly/demon realms.

Originally posted by Mr Master

What we do know for a FACT
is that Reality-82432 (Korvac's world) is a Universe that diverged from Avengers #177.

Because of this,
Reality-82432 is a copy of Reality-616 in every way up until the point of divergence.

This is a Marvel Comics fact:

Divergent Earth: (Divergent Universe) --



http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/9741494_divergedg0.jpg

"Alternate Earth which was once parallel to Earth-616,
until a change altered how it's history unfolded."

Truth supported by On Panel evidence:

http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/9742152_Kor8.jpg
Originally posted by zopzop

Your explanation is BS.
You're explanation is BS.

As meaningless as it is ... see ... thats simple to type.
Originally posted by zopzop

The LT himself said that he was sealing Korvac and the other cosmics in that universe to stop the insanity from spreading. Order and Chaos even contemplated leaving before he sealed off the universe off but decided to stay because "other universes have their own ORder and Chaos". It wasn't multiversal AT ALL. It's right here on panel!
This has absolutely nothing to do with what you're replying to.

That aside, to address your post:

Master Order gave his reasons why they can't leave,
but Lord Chaos let it be known they can't anyway, regardless of perils or not,
"our dominion begins and ends here"

Anyway yea, the abstracts of the other realities were still around, but for whatever "What If" reason,
Korvac stomped the greatest powers of the Multiverse at the time! (excluding the LT)

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/9738078_Kor6.jpg

"The most awesome assembly of diverse power-wielders in the history of the Multiverse"

You don't like it, write Gruenwald a letter and complain.

Or take it for what it is, a ... "What If" ... which is a playground for writers .

Next.
Originally posted by zopzop

WTH are you talking about? Sym and Madelyne's barrier was exactly like the one Korvac set up to keep Gods and Demons from entering into their universe, not to keep Cosmics that are already in the universe out.

Where did you get that idea from!?
I got that idea from the comic book, how about you're exaggeration that it was universal?

Anyway, Madelyne/Sym's barrier was planetary: (and towards the end beings got through anyway)

http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/9742056_Kor9.jpg

While Korvac's was across his entire Universe, and only the LT got through.

Next.
Originally posted by zopzop

The LT put up a barrier that sealed off that entire universe from the rest of the multiverse not just adjacent godly/demon realms. In the follow up to the story as soon as that universe was nullified the LT dropped his barrier and they were able to return.
... I know that but ... you're not telling me anything I haven't known for many years ... but ...

What does this have to do with what we're discussing right now?

Anyway, I gotta go night night, so enjoy.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Truth supported by On Panel evidence:
http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/9742152_Kor8.jpg

You're explanation is BS.

As meaningless as it is ... see ... that's simple to type.

This has absolutely nothing to do with what you're replying to.

That aside, to address your post:

Master Order gave his reasons why they can't leave,
but Lord Chaos let it be known they can't anyway, regardless of perils or not,
"our dominion begins and ends here"

Anyway yea, the abstracts of the other realities were still around, but for whatever "What If" reason,
Korvac stomped the greatest powers of the Multiverse at the time! (excluding the LT)

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/9738078_Kor6.jpg

"The most awesome assembly of diverse power-wielders in the history of the Multiverse"

You don't like it, write Gruenwald a letter and complain.

Or take it for what it is, a ... "What If" ... which is a playground for writers .

Next.

I got that idea from the comic book, how about you?

Anyway, Madelyne/Sym's barrier was planetary: (and towards the end beings got through anyway.

http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/9742056_Kor9.jpg

While Korvac's was across his entire Universe, and only the LT got through.

Next.

... I know that but ... you're not telling me anything I haven't known for many years ... but ...

What does this have to do with what we're discussing right now?

Anyway, I gotta go night night, so enjoy.

A) Order and Chaos even said there are OTHER UNIVERSES WITH THEIR OWN ORDER AND CHAOS. Do you get that? The events in that What if were not multiversal in scope. So when he nullified that universe it had NO baring to any other universe or abstract outside that particular reality. The LT even said that he was sealing that universe off from the rest of the multiverse so it's madness doesn't spread. They couldn't have made it more clear, it was not a multiversal event.

B) Sym stated that they sealed off their What If dimension from godly and demonic realms and I quote "The same spell which seals off this DIMENSION....."

C) By the very fact that 616 Korvac went to great lengths to hide from other cosmics especially Eternity and was angry when the Avengers confronted him and thus he was exposed and Eternity was made aware of his presence, this happened BEFORE his suicide scene. If What If Korav's reality really was 100% exact until the suicide event then why didn't Eternity in What IF KOravac acknowledge Korvac and vise versa? Because the universes were NOT 100% identical till that scene.

Originally posted by zopzop
IT'S AN ALTERNATE REALITY. Who knows how close it follows 616 reality. Korvac NEVER mentioned Eternity and Eternity NEVER acknowledged Korvac in that WHAT IF issue. Why bring 616 reality into this?





Now you're just being a negationism for negationism's sake, let's not ever discuss What If issues again ok?

Originally posted by zopzop

Because the universes were NOT 100% identical till that scene.
You really don't know what a Diverged alternate What If reality is.

Therefore, I can understand your circles.

Originally posted by Bentley

Now you're just being a negationism for negationism's sake

Originally posted by zopzop

A) Order and Chaos even said
there are OTHER UNIVERSES WITH THEIR OWN
ORDER AND CHAOS. Do you get that?
Who said otherwise?

Uhm btw, your caps aren't changing anything,
especially not the on panel verbatim I just posted.

Here, let me show you again:
Originally posted by Mr Master

Anyway yea, the abstracts of the other realities were still around, but for whatever "What If" reason,
Korvac stomped the greatest powers of the Multiverse at the time! (excluding the LT)

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/9738078_Kor6.jpg

"The most awesome assembly of diverse power-wielders in the history of the Multiverse"

You don't like it, write Gruenwald a letter and complain.

Or take it for what it is, a ... "What If" ... which is a playground for writers .
See, you're the one that's placing all your cards on the reliability of a "What if,"
you're trying to use sensible logic to defy the crap that's written here, and it's not gonna work.

It's a "What if" dude, I'm not even taking this debate seriously,
I'm only trying to make you realize the pointlessness of it by countering your claims with facts from the book.
Originally posted by zopzop

The events in that What if were not multiversal in scope.
So when he nullified that universe it had NO baring to any other universe
or abstract outside that particular reality.
The LT even said that he was sealing that universe off from the rest of the multiverse
so it's madness doesn't spread.
They couldn't have made it more clear,
it was not a multiversal event.
That's another thing, dude, are you reading my posts or skimming through them?

Because you reply to sh*t I never said or even implied via allusion.

Go find my post where I claimed Korvac affected anything outside his Reality.

Do me a favor, pay attention, or cease from this lesson.
Originally posted by zopzop

B) Sym stated that they sealed off their What If dimension from godly and demonic realms and I quote "The same spell which seals off this DIMENSION....."
Fasle!

Neither Sym, Madelyne or anyone for that matter
ever stated that fallacy anywhere in the story.

Sym only said, "outer dimensional forces"

And yes,
Sym said "the spell that cuts off this dimension" .... (a single statement)
but its funny cause the entire story from beginning to end dealt with a barrier around the planet Earth only:

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/9745910_Kor9.jpg

"the mystic barriers with which Sym/Madelyne have surrounded the Earth"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

In fact, the Limbo portal had converged with planet Earth alone:

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/9745914_Kor10.jpg

"The doorway between Earth and the Dimension of demons"

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/9746094_Kor11.jpg

"to open a rift between Earth and Limbo"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is why Dr Strange knew this would bring the LT who will destroy Planet Earth,
or the Universe if need be.

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/9745916_Kor12.jpg

"with Earth's plane so unbalance due to its convergence with Limbo"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Limbo rift on its own, was only on Planet Earth, and was only affecting Planet Earth.

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/9745919_Kor13.jpg

"could be Earth's last hope" ... "using it to save Earth, by purging the Planet"

"The Planet's only hope"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is why the Phoenix came to Planet Earth to purge it: (btw, the barrier didn't even slow it down)

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/9745922_Kor14.jpg

"it heads towards Earth"

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/9745924_Kor15.jpg

"Phoenix energy spreads, until the entire World is covered"

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/9745925_Kor16.jpg

"The LT senses the mystic balance is restored, the Planet Earth will survive"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

This should seal the coffin as they say:

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/9745927_Kor17.jpg

"the rest of the Planet has been restored ... much of Earth's population ... "

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

The whole story was contained within the Planet Earth,
the whole dilemma never went past a planetary scale,
and only the Earth needed to be purged since only the Earth was tampered with a barrier and a rift.

In fact,
the ONLY time that Universe may have been in danger
was when Madelyne and then Mordo took control of the Phoenix,
although they both got killed easily even with the power.

Other than that, only Reed and Doom were gonna take it to the next level.

Sym & Madelyne, heh, nada.

Originally posted by zopzop

C) By the very fact that 616 Korvac went to great lengths to hide from other cosmics
especially Eternity and was angry when the Avengers confronted him and thus
he was exposed and Eternity was made aware of his presence,
this happened BEFORE his suicide scene.
If What If Korav's reality really was 100% exact until the suicide event
then why didn't Eternity in What IF KOravac acknowledge Korvac and vise versa?
Because the universes were NOT 100% identical till that scene.
facepalm

From your OWN scan, Earth's PLANE. Understand now? Their universe was unbalanced because of the Inferno effect and the SOURCE of that imbalance was the planet Earth.

Sym and Madelyne's barrier sealed off their PLANE of existence from OUTSIDE dimensional forces. The PF was ALREADY in their universe (says as much on panel) and wouldn't be affected by that barrier at all.

The reason the LT wanted to destroy the Earth was because that was the source of the imbalance, EXACTLY like what occurred in What If Korvac. The LT wanted to destroy that Earth because the source of the imbalance, Korvac, was there. The LT didn't attempt to destroy the What If Korvac universe, so according to your "logic" the disturbance never made it passed Earth?

Originally posted by Mr Master
facepalm

Irony.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Who said otherwise?

Uhm btw, your caps aren't changing anything,
especially not the on panel verbatim I just posted.

Here, let me show you again:

See, you're the one that's placing all your cards on the reliability of a "What if,"
you're trying to use sensible logic to defy the crap that's written here, and it's not gonna work.

It's a "What if" dude, I'm not even taking this debate seriously,
I'm only trying to make you realize the pointlessness of it by countering your claims with facts from the book.

That's another thing, dude, are you reading my posts or skimming through them?

Because you reply to sh*t I never said or even implied via allusion.

Go find my post where I claimed Korvac affected anything outside his Reality.



It couldn't have been "multiversal" in scope because it was all limited to a SINGLE universe? Is that so hard to understand? What's even more laughable is those "multiversal" powers he defeated (all of them confined to a SINGLE universe), how do they compare power wise to their 616 counterparts? He defeated and absorbed them yet :
a) couldn't destroy a universe under his own power and resorted to using the UN
b) couldn't deal with a space armada under his own power and had to restort to threatening them with the UN
c) didn't even register as a threat to Eternity (he didn't acknowledge Korvac the ENTIRE issue, in total contradiction to 616 reality) till he fired off the UN.

Originally posted by zopzop

From your OWN scan, Earth's PLANE. Understand now?

Their universe was unbalanced because of the Inferno effect
and the SOURCE of that imbalance was the planet Earth.
You're confusing yourself. ... durlaugh back at ya. ...

You got one thing right,
space-time on Planet Earth was shifting the "Plane's" mystic balance out of balance.

But the barrier was was confined to Planet Earth as well:

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/9745910_Kor9.jpg

"the mystic barriers with which Sym/Madelyne have "surrounded the Earth"


WHY?

Well, because the rift between Limbo & that "What If" dimension was literally on Planet Earth:

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/9745914_Kor10.jpg

"The doorway between Earth and the Dimension of demons"

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/9746094_Kor11.jpg

"to open a rift between Earth and Limbo"
Originally posted by zopzop

Sym and Madelyne's barrier sealed off their PLANE of existence from OUTSIDE dimensional forces.
False. ... I thought you stated "Sym said it was "gods & demons"? ...

Thought I forgot? I know you ignored it, when I called you out on it,
even though you do respond to things I never said, which is weird.

Well anyway, False to that to.

They're entire reality wasn't sealed off,
it's clearly stated On Panel several times (look right above) it was ONLY the Earth.


++ You wanna argue a "What IF" from 1982 this is what it leads to ++
Originally posted by zopzop

The reason the LT wanted to destroy the Earth was because that was the source of the imbalance, EXACTLY like what occurred in What If Korvac. The LT wanted to destroy that Earth because the source of the imbalance, Korvac, was there.

The LT didn't attempt to destroy the What If Korvac universe, so according to your "logic" the disturbance never made it passed Earth?
The Limbo Rift was literally on Earth, Sym/Madelyne erected a barrier around the Planet Earth,
to avoid interference so the demons could continue to pour in through the Rift located on Earth.

This Mystical barrier that "surrounded the Earth" as stated on panel,
was protecting the tear in Space-Time (the Rift) to stay open so again demons could come in.

That's it, simple and put.

Now ...

The you're right, the LT came to Earth because that was the source of the imbalance.

But that has NOTHING to with why the LT didn't destroy the "What If" Korvac universe.

The LT came to the Korvac universe to judge Korvac, not the universe he happened to be in.

Then again,
just look at how stupid that is too when he decided to attack Korvac indirectly,
with some cheesy display that Nova can replicate,
instead of simply erasing that universe under his power
just how he was able to rip it from the Mutliverse and seal it.

"What If's for the most part ~~~~> facepalm

Originally posted by zopzop

It couldn't have been "multiversal" in scope because it was all limited to a SINGLE universe?

Is that so hard to understand?
Way ta go on falsifying what I said.

I never said the story was beyond Korvac's universe, I told you this already.

Is that so hard to understand?

Perhaps you misunderstood me when I said Korvac defeated "multiversal powers."

Well, I clarified that to verbatim as to what the WRITER himself said:

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/9738078_Kor6.jpg

"The most awesome assembly of diverse power-wielders in the history of the Multiverse"

So again, you don't like it, write Gruenwald a letter and complain
about why this "What If" from 1982 didn't fit your rigid standards of how the comic world should be.

Because I'm sorry, but according to this "What If" story,
Korvac was defeating the most powerful cosmic assembly
in the history of the Multiverse up to that point.

Does it make sense that besides the LT,
they were the universal Cosmics of this diverged/alternate reality?

No.

But you wanna engage a "What If" from 1982
& reply with laughing smilies like you're making sense,
so lets have fun & proceed amusing me.
Originally posted by zopzop

What's even more laughable is those "multiversal" powers he defeated
(all of them confined to a SINGLE universe),
how do they compare power wise to their 616 counterparts?
He defeated and absorbed them yet :
a) couldn't destroy a universe under his own power and resorted to using the UN
b) couldn't deal with a space armada under his own power and had to restort to threatening them with the UN c) didn't even register as a threat to Eternity (he didn't acknowledge Korvac the ENTIRE issue, in total contradiction to 616 reality) till he fired off the UN.
I agree, it is laughable.

"What If" you stopped trying to make sense out of these "What ifs" from the early 80's?

Take em for what they are.

I have a "What If" where the Black Panther's mother beats up a Marvel Writer,
cause he isn't giving him good stories,
and therefore isn't selling much comics in the real world.
The Writer terrified gives in and the Black Panther starts tearing shit up 4th Wall style.

Should we now say the Black Panther of Earth-XXXX is above TOAA cause he controls him?

Heck we can get really crazy and discuss classic She-Hulk,
truly the most powerful being ever.

But do I accept that as seriousness to integrate in a debate, nah,
only for comedy of course or to brunt the Mxy 4th wall nonsense.
And yet, She-Hulk's joint was across 60 Canon titles.

So my point is, we're dealing with comics, fictionalized realities
that have to adhere to a certain contextual substance if they wanna sell them,
mostly this is going to force PIS no matter the brains behind the pencil,
especially in the Cosmic department.

We just have to do our best to stitch things up
and filter out the inconsistencies the best we can.

Anyway, peace and love. stoned

+++


A point of interest concerning Sym saying "this dimension"
when referring solely to Planet Earth.

Imo according to the facts at hand and Marvel cosmology as known to me:

When Sym/Madelyne erected that barrier around Planet Earth
it became a pocket dimension cutting off outer forces with insufficient power to pass.

It should of been termed "pocket" dimension imo but hey, 1982, "What If" ... meh, I'll let it pass.

Anyway just how now Counter-Earth (Franklin's pocket-verse/dimension)
is the size of Planet Earth as well
and actually is located invisibly on the other side of the sun,
this is because although it's the size of a Planet,
it occupies it's own space-time cut off from the space surrounding it,
like a "barrier" coincidentally.

Incidentally it's no surprise this can happen apparently pocket-dimensions
can shift in out of their parent universe,
by using Counter-Earth again as the ie. ... Doom with tech moved it
from one location somewhere 616 to the other side of the sun.

So when the Sym/Madelyne "What If" Earth barrier was purged by Phoenix,
space-time along with the Earth of course was returned to normalcy as the Watcher said.

That's my take on the matter and imo it makes sense out of the senseless.


++ Now on:

Korvac not being able to wipe out the universe under his own power.
Korvac not being more powerful than every being in the Universe.

This has no explanation except good ol PIS,
or the writer enjoying his freedom in a "What if" story.

Responding like this because your walls of text are hard to fit in one post -

Originally posted by Mr Master
False. ... I thought you stated "Sym said it was "gods & demons"? ...

Thought I forgot? I know you ignored it, when I called you out on it,
even though you do respond to things I never said, which is weird.

Well anyway, False to that to.

They're entire reality wasn't sealed off,
it's clearly stated On Panel several times (look right above) it was ONLY the Earth.
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/7/73437/1743755-realmultiversalthreat_super.jpg

They sealed off that dimension from "outer dimensional forces". The PF getting to Earth was a non issue, since the PF was already in that universe when the whole fiasco started. And let's just say you are correct, that they formed a barrier ONLY around Earth that kept even beings already in that universe out. This doesn't come into play regarding the PF since a portion of it was ALREADY ON EARTH, it's HOST Rachel was already INSIDE the barrier. So it getting through isn't a failing of the barrier. A portion of it was already there!

Even ASSUMING your interpretation of the barrier is correct (it's not) ; that it was only around the Earth, what does that prove? NOTHING. Just because Dr. Strange/Jean/Surfer from What if Korvac couldn't get through Korvac's barrier but the PF managed to get through What If X-men Lost Infreno (Sym/Madelyne's) one, those are TWO different scenarios from TWO different ALTERNATE realities. We have no clue as to how powerful the respective characters were in relation to each other or their 616 counter parts. It's meaningless.

To add further fuel to the fire, Korvac panicked at the sight of the armada and threatened them with the UN. If he was so powerful why not wipe the armada using nothing but his own "omnipotent" power? A space armada punked Korvac but the LT and all the other cosmics couldn't? That alone should tell you something was VERY VERY wrong with the power levels of the cosmic hierarchy in that universe as compared to 616 reality.



But, he was causing UNIVERSAL imbalances. Look at what was going on with Order and Chaos, they were out of balance with Order dwarfing Chaos. A good number of universally important beings were also killed by Korvac. Yet he didnt' destroy the universe, he wanted to destroy the Earth, the source of all the commotion. Exactly like the What If X-men lost Inferno scenario.



Again, ALTERNATE reality versions of beings that we have NO CLUE as to how they compare to their 616 counterparts. I can show you alternate reality versions of Celestials WASTING TWO IG users and other alt reality versions being unable to subdue Ego without help from a mutant!

I wish you could argue this without obsessing over the armada scene, if only because it sounds as if your whole argument depended on that.

Originally posted by Bentley
I wish you could argue this without obsessing over the armada scene, if only because it sounds as if your whole argument depended on that.

But the armada scene plays a key role. You'll notice, that he sensed the skyfathers and other mystics trying to breach his barrier and was about to send the Avengers to deal with them, not even him personally, but his slaves, the Avengers............sent to deal.................with SKYFATHERS and other outer dimensional beings. That's how unconcerned he was about them (the skyfathers et al that were trying to breach his barrier).

Then, he senses the armada and drops that idea. He panics and drains the earth dry to go and deal with them. Yet with all that supposed power, he resorts to threatening them with the UN. There is no Eternity or any other power to drag into it as you and LoM were attempting to do, this is reinforced in the later What if where this reality was shown post nullification, he was addressing and panicking at the thought of dealing with the armada.

So going by that issue : alien armada >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>LT, other cosmics, skyfathers and other assorted mystic beings whose realms were blocked off by Korvac. Yet you want me to believe What if Korvac would beat 616 Thanos (Death Avatar)/Lord Mar-vell (Life Avatar)/Void? Hell no.

There was something SERIOUSLY OFF about the power levels of the cosmics and others in that reality.

Originally posted by zopzop
There is no Eternity or any other power to drag into it as you and LoM were attempting to do, this is reinforced in the later What if where this reality was shown post nullification, he was addressing and panicking at the thought of dealing with the armada.

But that very What If you're bringing in clarifies that Korvac didn't fear the armada, it strictly says that the damage the universe would suffer would ruin his goal.

Again, my problem of your argumentation is that to you this showing could easily set in stone the skewed powerlevels, while for a big number of reasons you could consider it PIS/CIS, and said things are confirmed by every source you can get (the What If by itself, the follow up What If, the Korvac saga). So I believe trying to make that showing about powerlevel is faulty reasoning -even if you shut down the Eternity/Death assumption-.

Originally posted by Bentley
But that very What If you're bringing in clarifies that Korvac didn't fear the armada, it strictly says that the damage the universe would suffer would ruin his goal.

What? Where did it say that? He feared the armada.
http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/9553/page35.th.jpghttp://img233.imageshack.us/img233/3111/page36.th.jpghttp://img821.imageshack.us/img821/9440/1914358page37super.th.jpg
Repeated for clarity in the follow up to the original story :
http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/5469/whatif04336.th.jpg

The exact quote is "disheartened by the prospect of so staggering a war." He was scared of them. The Narration even says he "desperately" was accumulating power to go ahead and "face his final challenge", the freaking ARMADA. He even told them to back off or he'll use the nullifier. They ignored him and attacked and he whipped out the UN. Obviously he didn't fear "damaging' the universe when he went ahead and NULLIFIED it.




You do realize, that in that VERY SAME issue, Korvac had no fear of the cosmics gathered against him, the skyfathers and other entities that inhabit adjacent realities that were blocked off by him and Carina, but dropped what he was doing and immediately confronted the armada as soon as he sensed them entering Earth's system. You can't deny this because it's right there on panel. How the hell can an alien armada pose a bigger threat than all the skyfathers and other powers and principalities that he blocked off Earth's dimension joining forces to break his barrier? He was going to send the freaking AVENGERS to deal with that! Yet he PERSONALLY saw to confronting the space armada. How the hell can you explain that away? This was even REINFORCED in a follow up to the story! I even PROVIDED you the scans.

Alien Armada >>>>>>>>>>>>>>LT and other cosmics >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Skyfathers and other powers and principalities in What If Korvac reality. I don't think it works that way in 616 reality.

Does disheartened sounds like he was scared to you? I may be french but that sounds more like he realized his failure and gave up -yet again- to his suicidal thoughts when he realized his dream couldn't be achieved. Korvac did his best to avoid a big confrontation, he isolated the armies of the skyfathers, he tried to pick on the cosmics secretly and one by one, but at the end none of that mattered because the living beings of the universe still raised against him. That changed the whole situation in more ways than just a powerlevel-focused one.

You're seeing this as a power issue, where clearly the armada managed to interfere with Korvac in a more drastical way than the entities managed until that point. The Watcher even goes there to beg him to go back to an isolated plan and to fleed to another galaxy, but the damage is done at that point as the conflict would happen. The plot is clearly defined in those scans, and fear of being overpowered does not satisfy such explanation.

Originally posted by Bentley
Does disheartened sounds like he was scared to you? I may be french but that sounds more like he realized his failure and gave up -yet again- to his suicidal thoughts when he realized his dream couldn't be achieved. Korvac did his best to avoid a big confrontation, he isolated the armies of the skyfathers, he tried to pick on the cosmics secretly and one by one, but at the end none of that mattered because the living beings of the universe still raised against him. That changed the whole situation in more ways than just a powerlevel-focused one.

You're seeing this as a power issue, where clearly the armada managed to interfere with Korvac in a more drastical way than the entities managed until that point. The Watcher even goes there to beg him to go back to an isolated plan and to fleed to another galaxy, but the damage is done at that point as the conflict would happen. The plot is clearly defined in those scans, and fear of being overpowered does not satisfy such explanation.

Bentley, no offense, but are you even READING the scans?
As soon as he senses the armada :
http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/9553/page35.th.jpg
"I'M STRONG, STRONGER THAN ANY BEING IN THE UNIVERSE. BUT I'M NOT STRONGER THAN EVERY BEING IN THE UNIVERSE"

Then look what he does
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/3111/page36.th.jpg

"DESPERATELY KORVAC CONFISCATES EVERY AVAILABLE LIFE FORCE AVAILABLE TO HIM"

Why is he doing this?
"I GO NOW TO FACE MY FINAL CHALLENGE, I GO TO RELEASE MY HATE"

Then he warns them to back or he'll use the Nullifer -
http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/9440/1914358page37super.th.jpg
"IF YOU DON"T DESIST IN YOUR ATTACK I SHALL....." He wouldn't have used the UN if they backed off but they ignored him and pressed their attack.

Proof here in the follow up
http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/5469/whatif04336.th.jpg
KORVAC BRANDISHED THE NULLIFIER AND THREATENED TO USE IT ON THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE IF THEY DID NOT RETREAT. THEY KEPT ON AND KORVAC MADE GOOD HIS THREAT.

The freaking narration even describes him as desperate and the armada as his final challenge. He was so terrified he warned them to back off or he'll use the UN. Face it, in that reality he feared the damn space armada more than any other challenge he faced so far.

In that reality :
Space Armada >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>LT and cosmics >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Skyfathers. It don't work that way in 616.

What do you think that Korvac means by "I'm going to release my hate"? Do you think he means that he will NOT shoot the UN? Korvac is complaining during his rant that the universe has been denied of his gifts, and the powerup served him to use the UN in the next sequence.

But EVEN, if you think this is somewhat wrong, the space faring races have slaved the Celestials and destroyed the Universe on panel, which can be outside the realm of even the best cosmic feats out there. So...

Originally posted by Bentley
What do you think that Korvac means by "I'm going to release my hate"? Do you think he means that he will NOT shoot the UN? Korvac is complaining during his rant that the universe has been denied of his gifts, and the powerup served him to use the UN in the next sequence.

But EVEN, if you think this is somewhat wrong, the space faring races have slaved the Celestials and destroyed the Universe on panel, which can be outside the realm of even the best cosmic feats out there. So...

Dude, IT SAYS IT RIGHT THERE ON PANEL. He threatened them to back or or he'd use the UN and the follow up story makes it CRYSTAL clear for those that had any doubts. They didn't back off and he fired off the UN. You can't have it both ways, first you say he wasn't scared of the armada, he just didn't want to damage the universe (contradicting what's on panel), then you say he intended to fire off the UN no matter what the armada did (hence "damaging" the universe anyway). Which is it?

PS do you notice something in this scan?
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/3111/page36.th.jpg

Look closely, do you see him now?
http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/1908/secretfriend.th.jpg

Exactly like the final page in the comic said, for all those who doubt.

Originally posted by Bentley
I wish you could argue this without obsessing over the armada scene, if only because it sounds as if your whole argument depended on that.
Exactly.

Originally posted by zopzop

You do realize, that in that VERY SAME issue, Korvac had no fear of the cosmics gathered against him, the skyfathers and other entities that inhabit adjacent realities that were blocked off by him and Carina, but dropped what he was doing and immediately confronted the armada as soon as he sensed them entering Earth's system. You can't deny this because it's right there on panel. How the hell can an alien armada pose a bigger threat than all the skyfathers and other powers and principalities that he blocked off Earth's dimension joining forces to break his barrier? He was going to send the freaking AVENGERS to deal with that! Yet he PERSONALLY saw to confronting the space armada. How the hell can you explain that away? This was even REINFORCED in a follow up to the story! I even PROVIDED you the scans.

Alien Armada >>>>>>>>>>>>>>LT and other cosmics >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Skyfathers and other powers and principalities in What If Korvac reality. I don't think it works that way in 616 reality.
facepalm

You do realize this a "What If" from 1982?

What If ============= bullshit and other What Ifs
=====================more bullshit and other stories
with the same principles like What If realities. I don't think should ingle with 616 debates.

Originally posted by Bentley
What do you think that Korvac means by "I'm going to release my hate"? Do you think he means that he will NOT shoot the UN? Korvac is complaining during his rant that the universe has been denied of his gifts, and the powerup served him to use the UN in the next sequence.

Originally posted by zopzop

They sealed off that dimension from "outer dimensional forces".
Nah.

The barrier was Planetary:

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/9745910_Kor9.jpg

"the mystic barriers with which Sym/Madelyne have "surrounded the Earth"

++ Sym & Madelyne are NOT, and have NEVER been universal powers (even combined)
they can't even remotely hope to display such power as to seal off an entire Reality.

Heck,
Madelyne only tried claiming universal dominance when she acquired the PF,
other than that, Sym & Madelyne's combined power coupled with the Soulsword,
made them (combined) Planetary powers at best,
with the added ability to open a portal between two dimensions.
Originally posted by zopzop

The PF getting to Earth was a non issue, since the PF was already in that universe when the whole fiasco started. And let's just say you are correct, that they formed a barrier ONLY around Earth that kept even beings already in that universe out. This doesn't come into play regarding the PF since a portion of it was ALREADY ON EARTH, it's HOST Rachel was already INSIDE the barrier. So it getting through isn't a failing of the barrier. A portion of it was already there!
I disagree that Rachel being within the barrier gave the PF easier access inside,
that aside,
I agree the PF scenario doesn't definitively demean the barriers strength,
although, the writer never had any one but the PF & LT visit the Earth.
Originally posted by zopzop

Even ASSUMING your interpretation of the barrier is correct (it's not) ; that it was only around the Earth,

what does that prove? NOTHING.
Actually I'm not interpreting anything,
it's verbatim quoted from the comic book I posting:

"the mystic barriers with which Sym/Madelyne have "surrounded the Earth"

What does it prove?

That Korvac was far more powerful than Sym & Madelyne,
so stop trying to demean Korvac sealing off en entire Universe
by comparing it to Sym & Madelyne's Planetary scale affect.

Which is the only reason I'm even debating another "What If" comic.
Originally posted by zopzop

To add further fuel to the fire, Korvac panicked at the sight of the armada and threatened them with the UN. If he was so powerful why not wipe the armada using nothing but his own "omnipotent" power? A space armada punked Korvac but the LT and all the other cosmics couldn't? That alone should tell you something was VERY VERY wrong with the power levels of the cosmic hierarchy in that universe as compared to 616 reality.
Nah.

That doesn't tell me anything other than what I already know.

This is a "What If" from 1982 which means, PIS accompanied by inconsistencies will run rampant.
Originally posted by zopzop

But, he was causing UNIVERSAL imbalances. Look at what was going on with Order and Chaos, they were out of balance with Order dwarfing Chaos. A good number of universally important beings were also killed by Korvac. Yet he didnt' destroy the universe, he wanted to destroy the Earth, the source of all the commotion. Exactly like the What If X-men lost Inferno scenario.
The LT doesn't just show up and explodes universes at the first sign of an imbalance.

That aside,
the LT's objective is to maintain supposed to be Multiversal balance,
and the threat of that is what brings him.

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/9770357_LT.jpg

The LT wasn't even concerned with Korvac until the Watcher went to him and others for help.

Dude, did you read these stories are you just tapping scans from vs & respect threads?
Originally posted by zopzop

Again, ALTERNATE reality versions of beings that we have NO CLUE as to how they compare to their 616 counterparts. I can show you alternate reality versions of Celestials WASTING TWO IG users and other alt reality versions being unable to subdue Ego without help from a mutant!
I don't care what you can show that irrelevant and inconsequential to this particular story.

Bottomline:

In THIS story:

Korvac defeated with the exception of the LT:

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/9738078_Kor6.jpg

"The most awesome assembly of diverse power-wielders in the history of the Multiverse"

-----------------------------------------------------------

Makes sense?

No.

Oh it's a "What if" from 1982 so who gives a shit.

What If Korvac was the top of the totem and even LT had to shut of that reality otherwise, the Multiverse would of been toast.

Originally posted by lilshogun
What If Korvac was the top of the totem and even LT had to shut of that reality otherwise, the Multiverse would of been toast.

And yet he couldn't even handle an alien armada and resorted to using the UN (he even admitted as much on panel).

Also he was Death's b|tch :
http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/8167/korv4ls5.th.jpg

Originally posted by Mr Master
Nah.

The barrier was Planetary

Debatable since the freaking person that set it up said it was DIMENSIONAL in scope.



ASSUMING your "planetary barrier" theory is true; Not only was it's (the PF) Host on Earth but one of the two people that set up the barrier was destroyed and existed only in ghost form (Sym) and the other WANTED the PF's power (Madelyne) and was in contact with it. This happened BEFORE the PF made Earth fall. She (Madelyne) could have allowed the PF to enter the barrier since she lusted for its' power.




There is conflicting on panel statements regarding the scope of the barrier, it's CREATOR (the barrier's that is) said it was DIMENSIONAL in scope.



False :
http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/3954/page13f.th.jpghttp://img403.imageshack.us/img403/8450/page15bk.th.jpghttp://img829.imageshack.us/img829/3387/page16hp.th.jpg

Watcher : "We all know why we are here. Some of you knew before I even contacted you. We must decide how to deal with this Earth born usurper and his scheme for remaking the universe in his own image."

LT : "Though I have not yet rendered final judgement, I decree that Korvac is indeed a threat to this dimension a threat of such magnitude that he must be dealt with before he can amass further might."

So, not only did I read it, I HAVE IT. That and the follow up issue and all Korvac (that I know of) appearances up to the "Korvac Quest" in the early 90s. I don't have anything after that and it seems like I'm not missing anything, his humiliation vs the Avengers Academy is something I can do without (the Captain America Cosmic Cube fiasco is another).

Originally posted by Bentley
Does disheartened sounds like he was scared to you? I may be french but that sounds more like he realized his failure and gave up -yet again- to his suicidal thoughts when he realized his dream couldn't be achieved. Korvac did his best to avoid a big confrontation, he isolated the armies of the skyfathers, he tried to pick on the cosmics secretly and one by one, but at the end none of that mattered because the living beings of the universe still raised against him. That changed the whole situation in more ways than just a powerlevel-focused one.


yep. smack on.

Originally posted by leonidas
yep. smack on.

I guess the provided scan of him "DESPERATELY amassing power" to confront his "final challenge" (the armada) doesn't exist right?

Originally posted by zopzop
I guess the provided scan of him "DESPERATELY amassing power" to confront his "final challenge" (the armada) doesn't exist right?

of course it exists. and?

Originally posted by zopzop

Debatable since the freaking person that set it up said it was DIMENSIONAL in scope.
Not so debatable when the freakin person that set it up also claimed
with control of all dimensions even the LT would not oppose him.

http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/9771899_Kor1.jpg



It seems Sym was in hyper story mode up in here.

That aside, and ALL this from page 6 of this thread:

"the mystic barriers with which Sym/Madelyne have surrounded the Earth"
"The doorway between Earth and the Dimension of demons"
"to open a rift between Earth and Limbo"
"The Planet's only hope"
"Phoenix energy spreads, until the entire World is covered"
"The LT senses the mystic balance is restored, the Planet Earth will survive"
"the rest of the Planet has been restored ... much of Earth's population ... "

We got Sym making a single ambiguous statement that can be explained away,
vs a plethora of other statements from characters to the narration panels
constraining everything in this story to the localized global area which is Planet Earth.

You can use the law of probability or toss a coin.
Originally posted by zopzop

ASSUMING your "planetary barrier" theory is true; Not only was it's (the PF) Host on Earth
but one of the two people that set up the barrier was destroyed and existed
only in ghost form (Sym) and the other WANTED the PF's power (Madelyne) and was in contact with it.
This happened BEFORE the PF made Earth fall.
She (Madelyne) could have allowed the PF to enter the barrier since she lusted for its' power.

I already agreed the PF scenario is basically inconsequential in
determining the barrier's strength.

But regardless, my main point was that it was a Planetary barrier.

The story itself would be enough for me but I also know Sym & Madelyne together or not,
are not universal powers, in this story or any other,
and it would take at-least a universal power to shield an entire reality from the rest of the Multiverse.
Originally posted by zopzop

There is conflicting on panel statements regarding the scope of the barrier,
it's CREATOR (the barrier's that is) said it was DIMENSIONAL in scope.
Addressed.

Also IMO, once Earth and Limbo converged,
it makes sense that the Earth was a dimension unto itself connected to Limbo.

You may have overlooked it but I suggested that indeed he was
referring to a "dimension" the "dimension that the Earth had
become once sealed and converged with the rift into Limbo.

Franklin's Counter-Earth is a dimension in of itself and it's the size of a Planet
located invisibly on the opposite side the Sun within 616's Earth system.

Of course, a few years later after 82'
these type of dimensions became more commonly known as "pocket" dimensions/universes.
Originally posted by zopzop

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/3954/page13f.th.jpg

Watcher : "We all know why we are here. Some of you knew before I even contacted you.
We must decide how to deal with this Earth born usurper
and his scheme for remaking the universe in his own image."

LT : "Though I have not yet rendered final judgement,
I decree that Korvac is indeed a threat to this dimension a threat of such magnitude
that he must be dealt with before he can amass further might."
The only relevant scan to your point is this one,
what the LT said was after he had heard the complaints from the Cosmics
and saw for himself what was happening with Korvac.

Also,
did you not think the Watcher may have been referring to the "some of you"
meaning certain Cosmics of that particular reality, since they were feeling the effects of Korvacs actions?

Just a thought.
Originally posted by zopzop

So, not only did I read it, I HAVE IT. That and the follow up issue and all Korvac (that I know of) appearances up to the "Korvac Quest" in the early 90s. I don't have anything after that and it seems like I'm not missing anything, his humiliation vs the Avengers Academy is something I can do without (the Captain America Cosmic Cube fiasco is another).


I remember Korvac (with CCU)
remaking that entire universe involving Captain America 72 times back to back.

I don't see how korvac was afraid of the armada at all. What was he afraid of?he had the UN, and they couldn't really hurt him only affect his plans. The comic even said as much. I see it as he could have faced them directly but it was less detrimental to his plans to use the UN. I think his desperation came from him not wanting to use the UN on them and him hoping they wouldn't make him.

Originally posted by Raptor22
I don't see how korvac was afraid of the armada at all. What was he afraid of?he had the UN, and they couldn't really hurt him only affect his plans. The comic even said as much. I see it as he could have faced them directly but it was less detrimental to his plans to use the UN. I think his desperation came from him not wanting to use the UN on them and him hoping they wouldn't make him.

pretty much. the watcher even SAYS he knew korvac could have handled things differently if he chose. he could simply have teleported away. he could have fought them at the end but he DID NOT WANT TO FIGHT. he wanted the universe to accept him. he even thought he could FORCE that acceptance. when it was clear they never would, he decided to end everything. it had nothing whatsoever to do with being afraid. the word DISHEARTENED is used specifically.

why did he "desperately" absorb power? who knows. maybe he thought he could intimidate them into submission, maybe he thought he needed MORE power to use the UN properly. maybe there were a 1000 reed richards in that armada! he DID view that collective as a final challenge--they were a final challenge to his ability to RULE, to bring them to HIS side. a challenge he was unable to overcome via intimidation or any other way. he never wanted the universe destroyed. he wanted it to accept him. only when it wouldn't did he succumb to his suicidal tendency (as he did in the avengers arc) and destroy everything.

i see the armada as a symbol of the universe's resistance, nothing more. to look at it in any other way only leads to all the nonsensical detail-mongering that has been repeated ad nauseum in this thread.