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vs

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David Cain wins, with ease.

Dick Grayson is too good nowadays for it to not be a close fight.

Originally posted by cdtm
David Cain wins, with ease.

With ease? Really? Who has David Cain ever beaten in a HTH fight? He has an inflated rep based on the fact that he is (one of) Batman's many, many teachers but I would be amazed if a writer outside of Kelly Pucket would EVER present him as being on Dick's level currently in terms of physical prowess.

I can see someone saying "Cain wins in a close one", even though I disagree with it, but it's just crazy to say that Cain wins "with ease." If anything it's the other way around.

-Who has David Cain ever beaten in a HTH fight?-

To be fair, who have we seen him fight beyond Batman and Cassandra?

(Oh, and youngShiva, but definitely before she became uber)

Mostly I think it's the "Does really well against Bruce, despite being old enough to have slowed down somewhat" combined with the teaching Cass thing.

Nightwing beats his ass his Batman days have made him better.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Dick is in real trouble here I think. While I know that Dick can often get a bad reputation, he always does his best to rise to the occasion. He gets smacked around a lot, jammed in to places he really doesn't want to be, and is regularly stuck with an ******* for a partner. While I think he'd give it a fair shot, I just don't think Dick is going to get through this without being beaten.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Dick is awesome so he wins


Fixed biscuits

Originally posted by Q99
-Who has David Cain ever beaten in a HTH fight?-

To be fair, who have we seen him fight beyond Batman and Cassandra?

(Oh, and youngShiva, but definitely before she became uber)

Mostly I think it's the "Does really well against Bruce, despite being old enough to have slowed down somewhat" combined with the teaching Cass thing.

I agree, he hasn't fought many people at all - which is why I'm shaking my head at this "Cain pwns Nightwing" stuff. There is simply nothing to back that up.

And I wouldn't say Cain did really well against Bruce - far from it. At best he stalemated him for a couple of panels (the story in which he first appears.) Later on, he got his a$$ handed to him. That's not doing well. Which makes sense, since Bruce learned how to fight from a ton of different people, not just Cain. His training is more extensive. In any random meeting, Bruce is usually taking Cain down.

Cain did teach Cass but (and this is MHO) his contribution to her was raising her to read movements more than her fighting style. I don't think he could fight like Cass because he doesn't have move reading. I'm sure Thomas Edison had a science teacher but we can't say that teacher was a genius. Same here. In fact, I'd say most elite-level coaches/trainers have never achieved the limits that their students do (again, IMHO.)

-
I agree, he hasn't fought many people at all - which is why I'm shaking my head at this "Cain pwns Nightwing" stuff. There is simply nothing to back that up.-

A couple fights against the best is still a lot more than "nothing".

-
And I wouldn't say Cain did really well against Bruce - far from it. At best he stalemated him for a couple of panels (the story in which he first appears.) Later on, he got his a$$ handed to him.-

They fought three times. First time and in Bruce Wayne: Fugitive it was both tough fights.

The middle time, where Bruce easily handled him, was when he was really, really drunk.

While I hate to use it (because he's so out of character), the Beechan Batgirl series did have him put up a fight against Cass too.

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Cain did teach Cass but (and this is MHO) his contribution to her was raising her to read movements more than her fighting style. I don't think he could fight like Cass because he doesn't have move reading.-

Yes, but he was still a master HtH teacher who knew a whole ton about HtH and showed her a lot of the non-reading bits of her style.

Cassadra still uses a slightly modified version of his warm up drill (the only difference being she doesn't 'kill' the dummy at the end).

Originally posted by -Pr-
Dick is in real trouble here I think. While I know that Dick can often get a bad reputation, he always does his best to rise to the occasion. He gets smacked around a lot, jammed in to places he really doesn't want to be, and is regularly stuck with an ******* for a partner. While I think he'd give it a fair shot, I just don't think Dick is going to get through this without being beaten.

Yo PR what part of Calgary do you live in?

Originally posted by Q99
-
I agree, he hasn't fought many people at all - which is why I'm shaking my head at this "Cain pwns Nightwing" stuff. There is simply nothing to back that up.-

A couple fights against the best is still a lot more than "nothing".

-
And I wouldn't say Cain did really well against Bruce - far from it. At best he stalemated him for a couple of panels (the story in which he first appears.) Later on, he got his a$$ handed to him.-

They fought three times. First time and in Bruce Wayne: Fugitive it was both tough fights.

The middle time, where Bruce easily handled him, was when he was really, really drunk.

While I hate to use it (because he's so out of character), the Beechan Batgirl series did have him put up a fight against Cass too.

-
Cain did teach Cass but (and this is MHO) his contribution to her was raising her to read movements more than her fighting style. I don't think he could fight like Cass because he doesn't have move reading.-

Yes, but he was still a master HtH teacher who knew a whole ton about HtH and showed her a lot of the non-reading bits of her style.

Cassadra still uses a slightly modified version of his warm up drill (the only difference being she doesn't 'kill' the dummy at the end).

I'm not saying Cain is a slouch in HTH, and you make some good points, but none of this leads me to believe that A) he could ever consistently beat Bruce in a fight or B) he would steamroll Dick with ease.

FTR I think it's a decent fight but Dick takes the majority. He edges Cain in skill, story-wise had the benefit of learning from someone who both learned from and surpassed Cain, and is clearly more athletic.

Personally I think Cain edges or at least equals in skills, but Grayson's probably in better shape than Bruce, let alone David.

But it's also not just HtH, there will be guns.

IMO Nightwing would win in H2H.

With equipment Nightwing would win with ease due to versatility.