Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

With these two seemingly coming to a head in TOR, I'm jumping the gun and making this thread right now. Why? **** you thats why.

We'll go old-school for this and have 3 rounds:

Sabers

Force

All-Out

Revan.

Here's why:

1. 300+ years of Force knowledge, especially in the Dark Side.

2. Insta-killed a Sith Lord with ease.

3. Bitchin' mullet.

4. Most powerful evah by everyone's own subjective opinions.

5. Only SW hero to keep two broads at the same time without them knowing about each other. PIMP!

Malgus killed his girlfriend. And he's bald.

I think its obvious who is superior here.

You clearly hax.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Malgus killed his girlfriend. And he's bald.

I think its obvious who is superior here.

I haven't read the book, whose girlfrien,d Revans? so Exile was Revan's girl too? lol

No, Malgus killed his own girlfriend. He'll lie awake a night, alone, cold and bald while Revan has two sexy jedi chicks to keep him company.


(Untill he gets his ass kicked and has to live the Tenebrae for 300 years)

Malagus killed a non-Force user and she was seriously injured. He kinda cheated.

Malgus is an end of the game Level 50 Boss. Revan is a pitiful mid-level 30 Flashpoint. Malgus stomps him into the ground.

Now that's logic!

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Now that's logic!

You know it!
In all seriousness Malgus is arguably the most powerful Sith in the Empire by the end of the Old Republic. He is taken down by either
A Member of the Dark Council and the Emperor's Wrath + Powerful bounty hunters and Agents
Or
The Jedi Knight who killed the Emperor and the Jedi Counsular who kills the Emperor's Son + A smuggler and a trooper.
Revan is taken out by mid-level characters.

They're the same characters.

Originally posted by Nephthys
They're the same characters.

At half strength.
It's like the difference between getting taken out by AOTC Anakin and Kenobi and ROTS Anakin and Kenobi

Yoda is unaware how betas, arguments, and mmo bosses work.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Yoda is unaware how betas, arguments, and mmo bosses work.

I am aware that the first time the JK encounters the Emperor he is mid-level and he along with Tol Braga and 3 other Jedi get insta pwnd by the Emperor. Later the very same end of game JK kills the Emperor.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Yoda is unaware how betas, arguments, and mmo bosses work.

Except in this case he is right.... Yes, levels are non-canon. However, the characters by the end of the game are more powerful than they were at the middle of the game... That's just common sense. Still the possabilty exists that Revan was still weakened due to the fact that Vitate was draining him.

And the fact that it's a beta, that he doesn't die, etc. And he's been in stasis for 300 years..

He certainly seems to die since he still says his Malak quote even though his body disappears. Still you're right things may change.

You're misunderstanding. What was described was 2 builds ago. The recent build, nothing of the sort happens.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
And the fact that it's a beta, that he doesn't die, etc. And he's been in stasis for 300 years..

He does die. He said the exact same thing as Malak did before he died. In the latest build.
He's beek kept young by the same technique Scourge was.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
You're misunderstanding. What was described was 2 builds ago. The recent build, nothing of the sort happens.

Intresting. What does happen then?

He force blasts everyone away and disappears.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
He force blasts everyone away and disappears.

Yes that's his death explosion. And don't pull the 'There's no body so he's not dead' routine.
He explodes his body while saying Malak's "Darkness takes me" quote. He is finished, through, dead, KIA.
I am sure someone as powerful as Malgus would be able to sense if Revan was still alive. But he doesn't he says his story is finished. Revan is dead. Sorry bro. That's not changing with only a month to go before the game is released.

Theres no way to prove he's dead.

Shh, I enjoy reading n00b arguments.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Theres no way to prove he's dead.

Does Revan appear later in the game?
No.
Does Revan have any more plot relevance?
No, he is an insane madman trying to commit genocide on 99.7 of the Imperial Population. They are not bringing him back.
In the flashpoint dialogues says.
"The Jedi Master is dead."
Revan says that he knows exactly how Malak felt before his death.
Darth Malgus one of the if not the most powerful Sith in the Empire states that Revan's story is over.
He is dead.
We don't see a body of Mace Windu, but we know he is dead. Generally exploding in a ball of blue light is not a good sign in Star Wars.
See:
Galen Marek
Darth Sidious.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Shh, I enjoy reading n00b arguments.
I've been a member since 2007...

Omg. AHAHAHAHA

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Omg. AHAHAHAHA

Post one shrand of evidence that Revan is alive. And I'll concede. No? I thought as much.

Post one shred of evidence that he's dead. From the current build

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Post one shred of evidence that he's dead. From the current build

The current build
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RmQMSPOPpI&feature=related
This is from the 27th. You don't get much more current than this.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The current build
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RmQMSPOPpI&feature=related
This is from the 27th. You don't get much more current than this.

1. It doesn't explicitly say it's from the most recent build. That's the video upload date. A LOT of people hung on to hold vids and posted them after the lifting of NDA.

2. I skimmed the video after the battle scene and didn't see Revan blow up, dance off into the sunset or anything. What time does this proof occur?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
1. It doesn't explicitly say it's from the most recent build. That's the video upload date. A LOT of people hung on to hold vids and posted them after the lifting of NDA.

2. I skimmed the video after the battle scene and didn't see Revan blow up, dance off into the sunset or anything. What time does this proof occur?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1z87khulxkA
This is stated to be in response to a lot of videos on Revan. He just went back and played it.
The newest build has Revan moving away and leaving behind a clone. The old build didn't have that problem.

So you're comparing different beta builds as proof of Revan's demise? Nice going..

Mizukage, Beefington has played the latest version of the game whereas you have not. I'm inclined to side with him on this...

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
So you're comparing different beta builds as proof of Revan's demise? Nice going..

You are lying. What's your name on TOR?
If you kill him you don't hear the line, but look in the dialogue box. It happens.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Does Revan appear later in the game?
No.
Does Revan have any more plot relevance?
No, he is an insane madman trying to commit genocide on 99.7 of the Imperial Population. They are not bringing him back.
In the flashpoint dialogues says.
"The Jedi Master is dead."
Revan says that he knows exactly how Malak felt before his death.
Darth Malgus one of the if not the most powerful Sith in the Empire states that Revan's story is over.
He is dead.
We don't see a body of Mace Windu, but we know he is dead. Generally exploding in a ball of blue light is not a good sign in Star Wars.
See:
Galen Marek
Darth Sidious.



Its left purposefully ambiguous so they can always justify him surviving.

Which character? Sith or Jedi?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
You are lying. What's your name on TOR?
If you kill him you don't hear the line, but look in the dialogue box. It happens.

Beefington has no reason to lie and is one of the most respected debaters here. He's pretty much tdtd's heir, imho and he and Janus both say that you're wrong. Prove up or shut up buddy!

Attack the argument RS, not the person.

You're confusing him. He's too busy being objective!

Originally posted by Nephthys
Attack the argument RS, not the person.

I'm not attacking him, just demanding proof for his claims. Beefington is an enormously respected contributor around here, right? Mizukage needs something more than a "no u" to win against that. Beefington has played the game and has proven himself to be a paragon of objective reasoning in the same vein as tdtd, so he's an authority.

Gideon's desperate tdtd references make me do this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/ff/Ducreuxyawn.jpg/225px-Ducreuxyawn.jpgp

Is that guy having a stroke lol?

No, he's obviously singing opera dumbass.

I thought it was a wushu pose myself.

Don't know why a tdtd reference would make you sing opera, unless it's an opera in dedication to tdtd. Now I thought the guy was brilliant, but that might be going a little too far lol...

I challenge your attempt at hilarity:

http://www.freewebs.com/wushuxtreme/Wushu%20Xtreme%20Pose2.jpg

Wushu engage.

That is so gay.

The sexual orientation of those four is ultimately irrelevant if they can kick your ass.

If those homos can kick my ass, then I have very little to live for

There's always Revan.
There are some pretty badass homosexuals out there. Ian McKellen defeated a Balrog!

Ian McShane's character from 44 Inch Chest is probably the most badass homo in film. He wouldn't need to fight the Balrog, he could just charm it in to going shoe shopping with him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its left purposefully ambiguous so they can always justify him surviving. Originally posted by RevanSpoilers
Beefington has no reason to lie and is one of the most respected debaters here. He's pretty much tdtd's heir, imho and he and Janus both say that you're wrong. Prove up or shut up buddy! Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
You're confusing him. He's too busy being objective!

I do not have to prove that Revan is not alive. I do not have to prove a negative. You have to prove that he is alive. There is no authority on this board RS. We are all debating our opinions here, the only authority on these matters are GL and Lucasarts officials.
You all claim to be debating but we are not?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I do not have to prove that Revan is not alive. I do not have to prove a negative. You have to prove that he is alive. There is no authority on this board RS. We are all debating our opinions here, the only authority on these matters are GL and Lucasarts officials.
You all claim to be debating but we are not?

Poor child. You have to prove that Revan is dead, despite how terribly you tried to word that as if we were asking you to prove a negative. Nothing suggests he's dead so even if we entertain your weak non canon beta 3 builds ago argument, the onus is on you. Otherwise, you lose.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I do not have to prove that Revan is not alive. I do not have to prove a negative. You have to prove that he is alive. There is no authority on this board RS. We are all debating our opinions here, the only authority on these matters are GL and Lucasarts officials.
You all claim to be debating but we are not?

1. You made the claim that Revan died as a direct result of the battle. Considering his body vanishes in a huge flash of light, it's not clear whether or not he's dead because Bioware/Lucasarts officials haven't made any official claim either way.

2. Also, if all you intend to do is regurgitate GL/Lucasarts "official quotes" and standards, why DEBATE? Isn't the purpose of DEBATING to compare and contrast ideas to find out which is MOST LIKELY TO BE THE CASE? If all you intend to do is post immutable and unassailable facts, click on EU Forums and bug them.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
2. Also, if all you intend to do is regurgitate GL/Lucasarts "official quotes" and standards, why DEBATE? Isn't the purpose of DEBATING to compare and contrast ideas to find out which is MOST LIKELY TO BE THE CASE? If all you intend to do is post immutable and unassailable facts, click on EU Forums and bug them.


I thought it was to win at any cost and to revel in the lamentations of your slain. shrug

Originally posted by Nephthys
I thought it was to win at any cost and to revel in the lamentations of your slain. shrug

http://catmacros.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/what_is_good.jpg

Exactly.

Though I doubt the part about women would apply in most cases.

Shopping buddies count too.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
1. You made the claim that Revan died as a direct result of the battle. Considering his body vanishes in a huge flash of light, it's not clear whether or not he's dead because Bioware/Lucasarts officials haven't made any official claim either way.

2. Also, if all you intend to do is regurgitate GL/Lucasarts "official quotes" and standards, why DEBATE? Isn't the purpose of DEBATING to compare and contrast ideas to find out which is MOST LIKELY TO BE THE CASE? If all you intend to do is post immutable and unassailable facts, click on EU Forums and bug them.

So let's say that Revan did survive. Does not change the fact that he still lost and was forced to retreat. He's still weaker than the people who fought him in the flashpoint.

2. There are certain things that are up for debate that are not blantantly stated in canon. Things like Sidious being the most powerful Sith Lord and Yoda the most powerful Jedi up to the PT ARE NOT UP FOR DEBATE. Why? They've already been blatantly stated in canon.
Now if you make a fight like Dooku vs. Maul or Dooku vs. Vader Those can all be debated because GL or any source of canon has never said anything about that.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
So let's say that Revan did survive. Does not change the fact that he still lost and was forced to retreat. He's still weaker than the people who fought him in the flashpoint.

The problem with this kind of reasoning is that you cannot canonically prove how strong the members of said Flashpoint really are in reference to anyone else. They are at this point unknowns, but hardly weaklings. The Sith Inquisitor storyline even at low levels is well above the norm in power. You wholesale slaughter acolytes and fellow inquisitors, defeat Khem and make him your servant, and defeat a Sith Lord singlehandedly. And presumably, this flashpoint (IF it's even canon, mind you. Like KotOR, TOR has a multitude of different dialogue choices, plot devices and such that can be easily retconned or in some cases not happen at all) may have up to what? Potentially up to Four prodigies. Remember, Bioware and Devs have confirmed that the heroes you portray in TOR aren't just "Random Trooper/Sith/Agent X"; they're the best of the best, literally.



Okay, let's play it your way for a second.

Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord evah, according to GL, who is specifically focused only on his movies. He's stated about EU "it's not my world" and basically that he doesn't regulate it heavily if at all, limiting his interaction to "Fates of movie characters" and "names that can't be used because they're in a book I have of names". This is the same guy who states that Obi-Wan is too old to put up an impressive display against Vader, but Dooku who is 20-30 years older is doing flips and combating pretty much every Jedi of note multiple times. But really, let's accept your position as ABSOLUTE, because that's your agenda here really.

Mace beats Sidious.

Mace > All Sith.

Mace solos everything.

Is that absolute enough for you?



So basically, if GL said something, you cannot argue against it, even if the context isn't provided in EU, only in the "movies only" sub-canon which Leeland Chee and GL have both stated is entirely separate.

Again, EU is built on the movie canon, but the movie canon itself can be considered self-containing, and GL as the creator of that canon has absolute control... within that canon. GL didn't create Revan, Vitiate, Satele Shan, or even T3. He's not an expert on how powerful they can or cannot be mainly because he is entirely divorced from their creation and he's uninterested for the most part.

Let's try another example: Marka Effin' Ragnos. Once stated by narration to be THE most powerful of the most powerful Sith. GL personally reviewed Golden Age of the Sith comics, did you know that? You know what his sole concern was throughout? Not that Marka Ragnos could rival or best Sidious. No, not that. It was the fact that Ragnos' tomb looked too much like an Egyptian tomb, and some aesthetics were changed. That's it.

So if I take your absolute stance, I can conclude that GL approves of Ragnos being THE most powerful of the most powerful by his omission of any contrary argument at the time of creation. Therefore, Ragnos solos everyone except Mace Windu, who he must discriminate against in order to succeed.

Fair enough?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose


The problem with this kind of reasoning is that you cannot canonically prove how strong the members of said Flashpoint really are in reference to anyone else. They are at this point unknowns, but hardly weaklings. The Sith Inquisitor storyline even at low levels is well above the norm in power. You wholesale slaughter acolytes and fellow inquisitors, defeat Khem and make him your servant, and defeat a Sith Lord singlehandedly. And presumably, this flashpoint (IF it's even canon, mind you. Like KotOR, TOR has a multitude of different dialogue choices, plot devices and such that can be easily retconned or in some cases not happen at all) may have up to what? Potentially up to Four prodigies. Remember, Bioware and Devs have confirmed that the heroes you portray in TOR aren't just "Random Trooper/Sith/Agent X"; they're the best of the best, literally.

That's very true, but we can conclude it from this standpoint.
By Act II: The mid-level Jedi Knight, Tol Braga and some other Jedi are easily crushed by the Emperor. But by Act III the Jedi Knight is able to defeat the Emperor.



Dooku...doesn't do a lot of flips he is a Makashi practitioner. And I don't think ANH Kenobi is > Count Dooku. Dooku is just a particularly gifted duelist and force user

I am pretty sure GL said that Sidious threw the fight.


Except that's not true anymore. GL even said that he never considered the Clone Wars series and the Movies to be separate. And also there is a reason G-canon is the highest canon.


His canon is the highest canon. Lower level canon cannot override higher canon in order to account for continuity errors.


Yes the most powerful of the most powerful of his era. Sidious appeared after the Narration so GL's Sidious is the strongest still stands. And even if Ragnos was after Sidious, G-canon material still outweighs the C-canon material you referenced.


Did GL say Ragnos is the most powerful ever?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
That's very true, but we can conclude it from this standpoint.
By Act II: The mid-level Jedi Knight, Tol Braga and some other Jedi are easily crushed by the Emperor. But by Act III the Jedi Knight is able to defeat the Emperor.

If I'm understanding your argument, its that since Malgus was defeated by more powerful people than Revan this makes him more powerful as well?

I'm not sure I agree with this logic.

Lets use his logic against him. I believe Revan had the highest HP out of any character in the game other than the world bosses. Ergo, he wins!

I have to call this now:

http://travonfree.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/absocharliefos.jpg

Damn, that was a good post.

That's nice. Unfortunately, that statement did not accurately reflect what happened in the movie. If you're going to pick and choose, don't expect any leeway.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
That's nice. Unfortunately, that statement did not accurately reflect what happened in the movie. If you're going to pick and choose, don't expect any leeway.

That is exactly what happened in the film... Honestly, what contradicts it?

The fact that it was an even fight and nowhere during the fight was toda "bested" unless you want to translate that into "not winning".

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
The fact that it was an even fight and nowhere during the fight was toda "bested" unless you want to translate that into "not winning".

Whether it was an even fight is debatable however the quote says no such thing. And yes, Yoda was "bested" as he was defeated (by either ill luck or Palaptine's power).

How was he defeated?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
That's nice. Unfortunately, that statement did not accurately reflect what happened in the movie. If you're going to pick and choose, don't expect any leeway.

How does it contradict what happens in the movie?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
How was he defeated?

When he falls hundreds of feet and decides to flee rather than continue the fight...

That he didn't win is understandable. That he decides to flee when the stormtroopers come doesn't constitute defeat. That fight was as plain a stalemate as can get.

It's a straight up defeat. IIRC Lucas even says in the commentary that he added the Yoda fail line to make it clear he lost.

Originally posted by ares834
It's a straight up defeat. IIRC Lucas even says in the commentary that he added the Yoda fail line to make it clear he lost.

Really? Show me that plz. And it's not straight up defeat, it's a straight up stalemate. If I wanted to nitpick, Yoda disarmed Sidious in between scenes so he WAS winning.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Really? Show me that plz.

If you have the link to the commentary I could look for it. As it is have no way to access it but if you do have the movie with you one could check.



It was a defeat. At the end of the duel, Yoda was in the far less favorriable position and was forced to flee... Ergo defeat. Furthermore, the very source in question, a canon piece of evidence, says he was defeated. They only thing claiming it was a stalemate is your interpretation of the scene.



So? What truly matters is what happens at the end not the beggining and middle. I've never seen any one claim the duel in RotJ was a stalemate because Vader was winning throughout the majority of the duel... Regardles, Sidious disarmed Yoda later on.

It's clear you don't like the quote but you are attacking it in the wrong way. Not what it says, "contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides" There is simply no timeframe given and I would interpret it as most powerful practitioners of the time not of all time.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I concede that GL has no real care about the EU.

Good.



1. I can't find this quote being directly attributed to Leeland Chee anywhere. Source please.

2. The only time I see this quote and it isn't being rabidly repeated by a pro-Sidious debater somewhere is the discussion page on Wookieepedia. Again, there it is referenced as the entry from the SW Database at least around 2009. The Database no longer exists, and it's debatable who wrote all those articles anyways.

3. Chee is allowed to address continuity discrepancies. He is not allowed to arbitrarily make power levels, especially since he is not the creator of ANY characters within the mythos at this point. His job is to police EU for major errors, not write it into a consistent cohesive narrative that makes complete sense to GL's word. If he did, all post-ROTJ games and books would be removed from the canon, and guess what? It has not.

I heavily recommend using something other than blanket statements to support your arguments.

But blankets help keep statements warm and safe from threats.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
But blankets help keep statements warm and safe from threats.

http://www.blanketstatements.org/images/logo3.jpg

My general assertions feel cozier already.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Really? Show me that plz. And it's not straight up defeat, it's a straight up stalemate. If I wanted to nitpick, Yoda disarmed Sidious in between scenes so he WAS winning.

The only thing that shows Sidious was disarmed was the Junior Novelization. Yoda on the otherhand was disarmed.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The only thing that shows Sidious was disarmed was the Junior Novelization. Yoda on the otherhand was disarmed.

The Blu-Ray behind-the-scenes storyboards for the original conception of the fight show Yoda clearly disarming Sidious. Granted, that's not shown on-screen, but it can be assumed or inferred within reason. The concept that Sidious put his lightsaber away in mid-combat is pretty much violating the Razor though. I mean, really? "Hey, fast Jedi Master of amazing power! I'll just tuck away my saber now that I'm on higher ground. Rofl."

The screenplay's account of events regarding Sidious's disarming is, at best, equally absurd.



Yoda disarms Sidious, who responds with a blast of Force lightning; Yoda deflects the attack, vows to destroy Sidious, and yet leaps away for no reason? This is both counterintuitive and detrimental to Yoda's stated objection to "destroy the Sith." Why would you release your adversary when you hold the advantage?

Originally posted by 8675309/Jenny
The screenplay's account of events regarding Sidious's disarming is, at best, equally absurd.



Yoda disarms Sidious, who responds with a blast of Force lightning; Yoda deflects the attack, vows to destroy Sidious, and yet leaps away for no reason? This is both counterintuitive and detrimental to Yoda's stated objection to "destroy the Sith." Why would you release your adversary when you hold the advantage?

Really though, who are you to question Yoda? Yoda made all kinds of mistakes. Not really gives us reason to ignore canon, simply because he made another...

Because GL is the master of storytelling. Just ask Anakin "I slipped in the tub and got this awesome line-over-my-eye scar" Skywalker.

I think we're in agreement that an off-hand, tongue-in-cheek remark by Lucas doesn't constitute official canon policy.



I'm a fan of the Star Wars franchise and contributor to George Lucas's financial wealth, not unlike Stealth Moose, who recently questioned what he perceived to be inherently faulty logic behind the idea that Sidious would put away his blade in combat against a Jedi Master and, might I add, was free to do so without your censorship.

Just kidding.

I'm, in fact, a certified federal agent who is conducting a high priority investigation into the logic that underpins the actions and decisions of various characters in the Star Wars mythos. All in the name of national security, of course.



This one would be slightly more critical and correspondingly stupid on an unprecedented magnitude. If you feel inclined to believe that Yoda, a seasoned Jedi Master of eight centuries' worth of experience, is inclined to release his quarry over whom he is said to hold a definite advantage in order to satisfy his own sense of dramatic timing, feel free. As for me, the certified federal agent? While I'm not inclined to disregard the idea that Sidious was disarmed, I am dubious over how the screenplay says it occurred.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Good.



1. I can't find this quote being directly attributed to Leeland Chee anywhere. Source please.

2. The only time I see this quote and it isn't being rabidly repeated by a pro-Sidious debater somewhere is the discussion page on Wookieepedia. Again, there it is referenced as the entry from the SW Database at least around 2009. The Database no longer exists, and it's debatable who wrote all those articles anyways.

3. Chee is allowed to address continuity discrepancies. He is not allowed to arbitrarily make power levels, especially since he is not the creator of ANY characters within the mythos at this point. His job is to police EU for major errors, not write it into a consistent cohesive narrative that makes complete sense to GL's word. If he did, all post-ROTJ games and books would be removed from the canon, and guess what? It has not.

I heavily recommend using something other than blanket statements to support your arguments.

The Sith Emperor or Marka Ragnos being stronger is a continuity discrepancy.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The Sith Emperor or Marka Ragnos being stronger is a continuity discrepancy.

Continuity is in an eternal state of flux in Star Wars, we need only look at the past three years to reaffirm that fact. The canon policy dictates that the films supercedes everything else in terms of what is true and what is not, yet Star Wars: The Clone Wars has contradicted them more than once.

Originally posted by 8675309/Jenny
Continuity is in an eternal state of flux in Star Wars, we need only look at the past three years to reaffirm that fact. The canon policy dictates that the films supercedes everything else in terms of what is true and what is not, yet Star Wars: The Clone Wars has contradicted them more than once.

Clone Wars is G-canon though.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Clone Wars is G-canon though. T-canon.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Clone Wars is G-canon though.

I realize that the Canadian has already corrected you, but it's important to accept the fact that Star Wars canon is constantly fluctuating. What is and what is not canon is subject to Lucas's directives. Stealth Moose points out that Lucas disavows the circumstances of the EU, but the fact remains that both 'worlds' as Lucas calls them are ultimately subject to his whims. If both the EU and films were truly equal, then the EU wouldn't go to the lengths it does to comport itself with his vision. It takes a subservient role. Ultimately, I believe that the policies espoused by Ushgarak and the moderators are true in principle: what is canon is simply a matter of what material George Lucas wants to be canon. If he really wanted to remove things like Dark Empire and the Hand of Thrawn duology from canon, all he'd have to do is make one phone and both would be reissued with the infinities stamp on them.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The Sith Emperor or Marka Ragnos being stronger is a continuity discrepancy.

Erm, no. No it's not. You know why?

Because EU is entirely independent from GL's intentions.

It's not his world. Lucas has repeatedly mentioned that there are two worlds - his and EU's.





And before you go contradictory on me with a random Chee quote taking out of context, let's address that right off.



This is a huge problem in Chee's interpretation of EU continuity, mainly because GL (his boss) has clearly told us multiple times that there are TWO WORLDS here. And we've already established that GL, is not the leader of the EU world. He's completely divorced from it, to the extent of allowing writers full reign, even if they attempt to emulate his style and tenets, clearly he understands and allows that they go off on "tangents".

Now, let's consider how GL contradicts Chee once again:



So GL says it clearly: EU is allowed to exist as its own universe, it's own world, with very minor guidelines set by him. Absolutely nowhere has he stated that no one shall be more powerful than Yoda or Sidious. Nowhere. The only times he's mentioned their respective powers is within the context of his own universe.



Again, nothing after RotJ. GL has stated clearly that the story of Star Wars is the story of Anakin Skywalker, his rise and fall. Therefore, his "intent" or "vision" is only that. The confines of his world revolves around Anakin, and therefore any material besides that grossly misconstrues his intentions and wishes.

Now let's compare that again with Chee:



The bolded and underlined quote is clearly invalidated by GL. He's given writers a blank slate with a few guidelines that he expects not to be violated. Here's what we've conclusively determined to be forbidden by GL:

1. Anything after RotJ (He admits novels exist after, but he expressly forbids more episodes via film).

2. Names (GL has a list of names "in use" which he monitors).

3. Ragnos' tomb can't look "too Egyptian".

4. Etc.

So let's recap:

1. Nowhere has GL stated as an EU/alternate universe guideline that "no one can surpass Yoda/Sidious or just Sidious in terms of martial or Force prowess."

2. GL has basically given writers a blank slate in many ways, recognizing that they will go wild and contradict the very small scope he intended for the SW universe.

3. Chee contradicts himself and GL often and talks out of his ass. His "stance" on anything as an LFL official should be taken with a large grain of salt, especially since he has shown a serious movie-canon bias.

4. We've established that GL in any case isn't universally binding in terms of absolute blanket statements because he's disavowed any control over EU due to lack of interest and knowledge.

5. We've established that Chee is not an expert to construct universal power charts because EU is its own continuity and he is not a creator of anything with it. His power is to address continuity errors relating directly to GL's intentions in the movies themselves.

6. Which leads us back to 1. GL hasn't said that other Force users can't surpass his own creations.

You were saying?

Haven't seen Mizukage Yoda since this.

http://rooktopia.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/flawless-victory.jpg

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Haven't seen Mizukage Yoda since this.

http://rooktopia.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/flawless-victory.jpg

Right here baby.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
-Snip-
So what you are saying is that you think that Lucasarts position on canon is bullshit so you are going to do whatever you want? This is why the canon order was established because inconsistencies like this arrise.

http://www.amfirstbooks.com/IntroPages/ToolBarTopics/Articles/Featured_Authors/fox,_william_b/Fox_works/Fox_1990-1995_USMC/Art/19920106_Victory_Denied_cover_Archibald_Roberts-large.jpg

That was awful.

Weren't the rules on canonicity used here created by Ush and REXXX? So, do various statements by Lucas even apply to those rules?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
That was awful.

The Dark Lord has returned.
Although I do concede that Revan may still be alive.
Where are the rules on canonicity?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda

So what you are saying is that you think that Lucasarts position on canon is bullshit so you are going to do whatever you want? This is why the canon order was established because inconsistencies like this arrise.

Let me make this plain: No, I do NOT think that "Lucasarts positio on canon is bullshit" and therefore I can "do whatever I want". The very point that you completely mistook and then misrepresented my stance speaks volumes about your interpretation issues here. Let's get this back on track.

You asserted certain things as immutable facts universally because they originated from GL. We both arrived at the conclusion that this is false because GL, the highest LFL official has both declared that EU is a separate universe and that he knows almost nothing of it. Thus the assertions you brought up were invalidated right there. That you are attempting to skirt this established fact to still favor your earlier assertions is rather funny because you've already conceded.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Weren't the rules on canonicity used here created by Ush and REXXX? So, do various statements by Lucas even apply to those rules?

The debate here isn't to argue canon itself, but to argue that in hypothetical versus matches (especially those including EU characters) using absolute statements from GL on "most powerful of all Sith/Jedi" is inadmissable outside of movie-only continuity.

Case in point: Chee and Ush's rules both indicate that GL is absolute and EU must confor, to his vision. Proof of this is the rare times GL has negated or ignored EU when making the prequels. The problem is that this argues those rare exceptions as proof of adherence to GL's will. Yet all EU which comes before and after the movies can be called outside of GL's intentions. By his own admission, nothing postRotJ should exist, but in the separate universe of EU Lucas has NOT seen fit to obliterate from the official LFL timeline.

This means GL implicitly sanctions the existance of EU that may not jive with his intent. He has disavowed arbiting its growth. He has made very very limited restrictions on its lore and development. Therefore it is completely illogical to use blanket statements from him as absolutely binding outsiden of movie-only continuity since that is "his world".

On Alderaan, Malgus was beaten by then a Jedi Knight Satele Shan. If Malgus faced him at the height of his power, he would lose. Wasn't it Traya who said that "looking at Revan was like staring into the heart of the Force." Bane recorded powers that Revan wielded that Bane even he stated wouldn't try.
Revan returned to Korriban and crushed what remained of the Sith forces. He was both a Sith Lord and a Jedi Master at one point in his lifetime. Few have achieved that. And opened himself to the Force and survived.

He may have gone Starkiller and possibly "survived" like he did. I believe we'll see more of Revan in future novels. Who knows maybe Starkiller maybe related to Revan and that is why he is so powerful.

Malgus himself acknowledged the strength of Revan and the danger he posed to the True Sith Empire.

Malgus himself did not confronted Revan. A team was assembled and sent after Revan under Malgus' supervision.

Doesn't this gives any hint?

Not really. Just because Malgus assembles a team does not make him inferior.

It does if Malgus has a history of relishing challenges, like he did against the best of the Jedi in the temple.

No it doesn't. Malgus also dispatches you after some other tasks. Things he could likely easily defeat. Now if we want to go with "hints" how about the fact that Malgus is a "last boss" while Revan is only halfway through the game.

Or we can go with hit points, which means revan is superior.

Yawn. Game mechanics... Sure my example may be considered game mechanics by some. But personally it seems to rather be the way the story works.

Malgus sends you to do stuff because he's part of the Quest Giver's Union. The QGU opposes any of their members actually taking care of their own shit.

Originally posted by Lucius
Malgus sends you to do stuff because he's part of the Quest Giver's Union. The QGU opposes any of their members actually taking care of their own shit.

This.

Also, Malgus doesn't back down from a fight unless he knows he can't win it. And even then, he still says "**** it". I haven't seen the quest related dialogue for this scenario, but if Malgus were to avoid confronting Revan when he had the chance, it would genuinely surprise me. If anything, Malgus seems to be the type who would want to curbstomp Revan to add to his prestige and develop.

Ares' point is well made, though, unless all the tasks Malgus assigns are those beyond his ability to deal with personally. Otherwise, one could argue that given Count Dooku's reluctance to battle Darth Sidious without aid is an indicator of his inferiority.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
On Alderaan, Malgus was beaten by then a Jedi Knight Satele Shan. If Malgus faced him at the height of his power, he would lose. Wasn't it Traya who said that "looking at Revan was like staring into the heart of the Force." Bane recorded powers that Revan wielded that Bane even he stated wouldn't try.
Revan returned to Korriban and crushed what remained of the Sith forces. He was both a Sith Lord and a Jedi Master at one point in his lifetime. Few have achieved that. And opened himself to the Force and survived.

He may have gone Starkiller and possibly "survived" like he did. I believe we'll see more of Revan in future novels. Who knows maybe Starkiller maybe related to Revan and that is why he is so powerful.

Starkiller is dead, but Revan may actually be alive. When Starkiller exploded with the force it was quite different, there was a body left. Revan leaves no trace.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Post one shrand of evidence that Revan is alive. And I'll concede. No? I thought as much.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Rh3IyVDHIs

lmfao you thought

petty

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Rh3IyVDHIs

lmfao you thought Lol, you 'got him' nearly 7 years later.

Well done?

Take a joke

I even linked to the Foundry - not SoR

lol that this used to be a question

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Take a joke. Ahh.

Well in that case it was super funny. Good necro-bump.

i see my torch has been passed

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Galan's hatred for ant rivals your own I like Ant, tbh... But he gives me shit occasionally, so I like to reciprocate whenever possible.