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Sidious.

Tough to tell

I'm taking the bear, but tough fight first.

SPOILERS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpnJeYVvhps

AHAHAHAHAHAHA! MY VICTORY IS AT HAND! THAT WAS PATHETIC!

BIOWARE: Hey, we have this Sith Emperor who is basically being built up to be a Force God and has been alive for over a thousand years.

TESTER: Cool! Make him the ultimate bad guy and give him cool scenes!

BIOWARE: Trolololol! No, he's gonna shoot some very weak Dooku-esque lightning and then die like a ***** to a single Jedi Knight and his faithful droid companion. THIS is the guy no one could beat for hundreds of years!

TESTER: Wut...

That basically summed it up.

Beware the Emperors giant chin and pale, wrinkly face of DOOOM!

That 'tough to tell' silliness went out of the window, it seems.

Originally posted by Nephthys
SPOILERS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpnJeYVvhps

AHAHAHAHAHAHA! MY VICTORY IS AT HAND! THAT WAS PATHETIC!
Gameplay mechanics.

In games, your characters are like death machines.

Also, Revan stated that the Jedi who may take out the Sith Emperor would be a CHAMPION OF LIGHT.

Therefore, we have a new Mary-Sue in the making.

Also, let us not forget that DE Sidious was defeated by one Jedi too.

However, I would agree that is very very shitty fight. Bioware is out of its mind.

But then, fight with Darth Nihilus was also underwhelming.

1. The Jedi who 'defeated' Sidious was Luke Skywalker opening himself up to become a pure Avatar of the light, as well as Luke and Leia together doing so.

And Nihilus was crippled by trying to feed off the Exile. No excuses here. Vitate isn't as great as you thought he was. Deal with it.

Oh, that was a cutscene. Not gameplay

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. The Jedi who 'defeated' Sidious was Luke Skywalker opening himself up to become a pure Avatar of the light, as well as Luke and Leia together doing so.

And Nihilus was crippled by trying to feed off the Exile. No excuses here. Vitate isn't as great as you thought he was. Deal with it.

Oh, that was a cutscene. Not gameplay
Exuses?

Lord Vitiate destroyed his entire Dark Council comprising of very powerful Sith Lords (10 members to be extact). One Dark Council member alone was enough to handle Lord Scourge and Meetra simultaneously. Do the math.

Either the game creators are out of their mind or Drew is.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Exuses?

Lord Vitiate destroyed his entire Dark Council comprising of very powerful Sith Lords (10 members to be extact). One Dark Council member alone was enough to handle Lord Scourge and Meetra simultaneously. Do the math.

Either the game creators are out of their mind or Drew is.

He killed them off screen. We have no clue how he did it. He could easily have used a massive ritual like the one he used on Nathema. In fact I think this is more likely than him overwhelming them by himself. If he was capable of killing all of them why was he afraid of them enough to kill them at the merest hint of rebellion?

The point is, we don't know how he did it so it can't be used in as evidence for his combat power.

Also it was a cutscene, so there.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He killed them off screen. We have no clue how he did it. He could easily have used a massive ritual like the one he used on Nathema. In fact I think this is more likely than him overwhelming them by himself. If he was capable of killing all of them why was he afraid of them enough to kill them at the merest hint of rebellion?

The point is, we don't know how he did it so it can't be used in as evidence for his combat power.

Also it was a cutscene, so there.
No, ritual is not a possibility. Otherwise, life would have been extinct in Kaas city.

He summoned them in his Citadel. And none of them walked out. This happened within a single day and that too during the assault of his Forces on the compound of Lord Nyriss.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
That 'tough to tell' silliness went out of the window, it seems. Not really since the game is currently in beta and this was a few builds ago.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
No, ritual is not a possibility. Otherwise, life would have been extinct in Kaas city.

He summoned them in his Citadel. And none of them walked out. This happened within a single day and that too during the assault of his Forces on the compound of Lord Nyriss.

I said 'like the one of Nathema'. He wouldn't of had to of used the same one. A ritual is perfectly plausable considering all of it happened off-screen.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I said 'like the one of Nathema'. He wouldn't of had to of used the same one. A ritual is perfectly plausable considering all of it happened off-screen.
You are speculating. We don't have any canonical hint of this. Not even an assertion from an in-universe character.

you know, he could have just had their speeders blown up, or the building they were working in bombed. Lots of ways to kill someone, and quite a stretch to assume he did it with overwhelming hand-to-hand combat...

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You are speculating. We don't have any canonical hint of this. Not even an assertion from an in-universe character.

No, you are speculating. All we know is that they walked into a room and didn't walk out again. We have no clue what happened in there. You are merely speculating that he overcame them through his own power when there is nothing to suggest it. Its completely unknown what he did so it cannot be used as an example of his combat prowess.

poison'd em with cupcakes.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, you are speculating. All we know is that they walked into a room and didn't walk out again. We have no clue what happened in there. You are merely speculating that he overcame them through his own power when there is nothing to suggest it. Its completely unknown what he did so it cannot be used as an example of his combat prowess. This is idiotic since the ONLY thing suggested is that he overcame them with his own power.

Would you mind pointing out where in the text that suggestion is made?

um, i just suggested that he poisoned them with cupcakes. so it's kinda idiotic to act like the only thing suggested is that he overcame them with his power.

Well said. Cupcakes are certainly possible, if not plausible. It's a Sith delicacy, after all.

i mean, if i was a sith lord, and i was offered a cupcake, i sure as hell would eat that cupcake.

Seems sensible.

good, seems as though we have a consensus.

He has no need of cupcakes or rituals. His center of power, with all of its dark side empowered guards, security systems, and home turf advantage?

Deathtrap.

Originally posted by truejedi
you know, he could have just had their speeders blown up, or the building they were working in bombed. Lots of ways to kill someone, and quite a stretch to assume he did it with overwhelming hand-to-hand combat...
Here is how the events unfolded:


1. Lord Scourge went to meet Lord Vitiate, and informed him of the treachery of the Dark Council.

2. Lord Vitiate dispatched his forces to destroy the compound of Lord Nyriss and kill her.

3. While the assault took place on Nyriss' compound, Lord Vitiate summoned all other Dark Council members to his citadel.

4. Lord Scourge and the Jedi escaped from the aftermath of the attack on the Nyriss' compound and took refuge in a cave.

5. Lord Scourge went out to observe the situation in Kaas City and make arrangements for assassination of Lord Vitiate. The Sith Emperor had imposed martial law.

6. Upon return, Lord Scourge revealed to the Jedi about the fate of the Dark Council. He mentioned that Lord Vitiate had destroyed the entire Dark Council by himself to make an example for all others who would harbored thoughts of betraying him.

Lucius
He has no need of cupcakes or rituals. His center of power, with all of its dark side empowered guards, security systems, and home turf advantage?

Deathtrap.

You sorely underestimate the deviousness of rituals and cupcakes.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Here is how the events unfolded:


1. Lord Scourge went to meet Lord Vitiate, and informed him of the treachery of the Dark Council.

2. Lord Vitiate dispatched his forces to destroy the compound of Lord Nyriss and kill her.

3. While the assault took place on Nyriss' compound, Lord Vitiate summoned all other Dark Council members to his citadel.

4. Lord Scourge and the Jedi escaped from the aftermath of the attack on the Nyriss' compound and took refuge in a cave.

5. Lord Scourge went out to observe the situation in Kaas City and make arrangements for assassination of Lord Vitiate. The Sith Emperor had imposed martial law.

6. Upon return, Lord Scourge revealed to the Jedi about the fate of the Dark Council. He mentioned that Lord Vitiate had destroyed the entire Dark Council by himself to make an example for all others who would harbored thoughts of betraying him.

Palpatine could have defeated the entirety of his dark side adepts collectively, including a guy who matched and obliterated Ood Bnar, what's your point?
You keep throwing out feats like they mean much without pausing to consider it's not unique

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Palpatine could have defeated the entirety of his dark side adepts collectively, including a guy who matched and obliterated Ood Bnar, what's your point?
You keep throwing out feats like they mean much without pausing to consider it's not unique
Sure, lets compare dark side adepts to full fledged dark lords.

He could have defeated all of Vitiates Dark Lords as well if he was in the his position.

One of those Dark Side adepts was capable of going toe to toe with one of the most respected and celebrated masters of the Old Republic calling upon the power of Ossus until they achieved mutual obliteration.

What prevents Palpatine's adepts from being as strong as sith lords of old? Would anyone deny Cronal was at the level of an average Dark Lord of the Sith, for one? Would anyone deny Kadann or Azrakel have displayed pretty incredible power? Or Arden Lyn, a 25,000 year old original Dark Jedi?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
One of those Dark Side adepts was capable of going toe to toe with one of the most respected and celebrated masters of the Old Republic calling upon the power of Ossus until they achieved mutual obliteration. Good one. Certain words were bolded for irrelevance. You'll have to excuse me if I ignore this feat because the tree lacks any kind of relevant combat prowess.

Seeing as how they're just adepts and nothing more, compared to dark lords of the sith who command various myriads of force techniques (and no i don't need to specify), there's no real comparison here. Also, explain Arden Lynn's superiority to anyone. And finally, explain the relevance of foresight as it pertains to combat?

Ah, so I see that Ood Bnar is suddenly an untalented fool now? Even if lightsaber combat wasn't his forte, he was noted for exceptional learning, strength in the force and had Ossus's power to draw on.

And they're 'adepts' because Palpatine granted them that title. He doesn't HAVE other Sith Lords. What does the title even matter? Cronal's power in the Dark Side was frankly titanic. He didn't call himself Sith because he considered it wholly irrelevant.

And Arden was the second in command of the Legions of Lettow. That says a lot for her strength, givne that she was one of the major players of the first great Schism.

The Dark Side adepts also command 'myriad of Force techniques,' given many of them were taught by Palpatine or members of Sith Cults before he found them. One of them (Rokur Gepta) wiped out all life on a planet with a force technique.

To say a freaking abolished title means anything is insane. Marka Ragnos, Exar Kun and Naga Sadow weren't 'Darths,' does that mean they're weaker next to Darth Rivan and Darth Nyriss?

These aren't level up classes they have. It's just splitting hairs over an abolished title.

And Kadann's main power was his prophetic abilities. He was also an immensely powerful force user and saber user. He just disliked physical force and often simply left if someone attempted it

Jerec probably counts. That bald bastard was really powerful for someone who wasn't even a real apprentice.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Ah, so I see that Ood Bnar is suddenly an untalented fool now? Even if lightsaber combat wasn't his forte, he was noted for exceptional learning, strength in the force and had Ossus's power to draw on.
Wonderful strawman. If you want to start typing to yourself, I suggest you show a modicum of civility. I'm not going to sift through things you just make up. As I've stated before, combat wasn't his forte so pointing him out is irrelevant.


Titanic? LOL.. You'll have to quantify that somehow. And they're adepts because they happen to basic dark side powers and nothing more. Dark Lords earn that title because they're the most powerful sith in their entire empire. It's not even a contest.


Oh whoopie, please give an accurate comparison between the dark side force users of her day versus any other time period. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and throw her in the "unknown" category, seeing as how we know nothing about her.


Really? What was that force technique again? There's nothing suggesting these adepts were anywhere near the level of the dark lords of the true sith empire. If there's nothing else, Palpatine would have taught them the basics, just enough so they can't challenge him in any manner.


No, but they were dark lords of the sith, as were the darths of the true sith empire. Maybe you don't know the makeup of that empire but the dark council was made up of dark lords.


It's not splitting hairs when you're comparing generic dark side force users to dark lords with intricate sith knowledge.


Show me relevant force/combat feats.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Wonderful strawman. If you want to start typing to yourself, I suggest you show a modicum of civility. I'm not going to sift through things you just make up. As I've stated before, combat wasn't his forte so pointing him out is irrelevant.

I'm sorry. But you are one of the last people to talk about civility
And learn the definition of a strawman.
He said lightsaber combat wasn't his forte. He was still a veteran of the Great Hyperspace War, is described as one of the most revered, powerful and respected masters of the Old Jedi Order. He is also described as a very skilled fighter by his apprentice.
And quote:
"he was an expert at using the Force, and had a wide array of powers in his repertoire."



Oh, for the...

Palpatine didn't let anyone else call themselves Sith. By your definition, how strong does this make Lumiya? And Carnor Jax? And Flint? All of whom were acknowledged Dark Lords of the Sith at various intervals.
You're, again, splitting hairs over a title. Jerec, Galen Marek, Sedriss, Cronal? Those are all Dark Side adepts.
And while we're on the subject, Cronal dominated the mind of an ancient DLOTS and tore knowledge out of him.
Rokur Gepta destroyed all life on Tund



I love how you kept flaunting out how Vitiate is so amazing for 1000 years of whatever, but Arden is 25 times that. She was capable of killing one of the leaders of the Jedi Order at the time, when she just woke out of hibernation, she was capable of holding her own against three members of the Inquisitorius, including the grand Inquisitor and she was strong enough to survive a Morichro attempt at killing her.

You're welcome to look up Abel G. Pena's "The Emperor's Pawns" that describes her powers and abilities



Oh, right, the amazing Sith Lords who couldn't take one planet of almost entirely non-force sensitive Soldiers? The amazing Sith Lords who couldn't even take a single city defended by a grand total of four Jedi?
Rokur Gepta, the last Sorcerer of Tund, in the Lando Calrissian books, is said to have used the 'electromagnetic torpedo' ability of the Sorcerers to have destroyed life on Tund.

And Palpatine's adepts are also described as having fed off of planets



And your point is? The name 'Darth' carries a lot of connotations in the Sith. Kas'im wasn't a Dark Lord of the Sith. Does that mean he'd automatically lose in a fight to Lord Garu or Darth Nyriss?

Does Nyriss have anything that suggests she could even beat Sedriss or Cronal? Cronal, who dominated Dathka Graush's spirit and consumed its knowledge?

'Generic' users? Repeat, 'Dark Side Adept' is a generic term. it has nothing to do with power or anything of the sort.Palpatine didn't want any other Sith than himself as his strict Apprentice.

Again, Lumiya eventually took the title of Sith. So did Carnor Jax. Does that make them better than multiple Dark Side adepts we can name?



He's directly described as one of the most powerful Force Users around, with only Yoda, Palpatine, Luke and Vader rivaling him.

And powerful, controlled force lightning is more than nearly any member of the Dark Council has shown. So, do you have anything besides 'But they're SITH' to go on? Anything?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I'm sorry. But you are one of the last people to talk about civility
And learn the definition of a strawman.
I know the definition. I'll try and dumb it down for you. I said something about him lacking combat prowess while you claimed I called him an "untalented fool". Lost that one quick.

None of which equates to combat. Drop this point already.




Not sure why you're still stuck on this title nonsense when I've repeated stated that those titles are earned in the true sith empire and the dark council is incredibly powerful.

Other than Marek, none of these have shown "titanic" powers.


Source=




I love how you intentionally play dumb when you've lost an argument. Flynn was what, in stasis for 25,00 years because some Jedi stopped her heart? You're comparing this to Vitiate who has lived for 1,000 years? Idiotic doesn' begin to describe it.


You're welcome to post quotes or descriptions rather telling me to "look it up", or drop the point altogether.



Not sure what this is even referring to, other than a poor attempt to play down their power.


For the millionth time, what is the exact quote.?


Quote please. Then I can dissect your vague notion at "feeding off planets."




No, my point is the only darths were dark lords of the sith and members of the dark council, meaning they're the most powerful in the empire. A fact you continue to ignore.


Yes, she has some kickass force storm ability which already puts her ahead of those two in the combat department. Nothing suggests either one of those can stand up to her. I'm sure dominating a 7,000 year old sith spirit gives Cronal a gold star and nothing else.


Which proves my point. They have no sith teaching. They lack the broad sith techniques that the dark lords all have because they're generic dark side users.


Keep the strawman going.




Show me the carfax, then relate his "power" to combat feats. I'm sure he was very powerful but would get put on his ass in a combat situation with someone who has combat prowess.



Yea, they've shown power beyond these dark side adepts so unless you have ANY kind of evidence that they're even on par with these darths, you lose.. Again.

why would being in the dark council make someone the most powerful in the empire?

Is that TJ? He's back! The most powerful beings were put on the dark council. The exceptions were Darth Malgus and Baras.

I just have to say that I never support Legend's positions because although he tries, his arguments are pretty far fetched to say the least. With that being said, Lightsnake's arguments are absurd beyond comprehension. He is now saying that Arden Lynn is more impressive because she survived for 25,000 years, than the 1,400 year old immortal empire. Yes, that is not a typo.

and yet the cupcake theory has no discernible holes.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I know the definition. I'll try and dumb it down for you. I said something about him lacking combat prowess while you claimed I called him an "untalented fool". Lost that one quick.

Yeah, you pretty much belittled his abilities, which makes my statements valid



Having incredible force powers doesn't equate to combat in a force battle?




Did you even read Shadows of Mindor? Or anything with Jerec in it?

Palpatine doesn't throw out titles like candy.
You don't have rank or status in Palpatine's Dark Side Corps unless you earn in. Every member of the Emperor's Hands earned his or her title. You think a position like "Dark Side Elite" is for fun and games? The seven most powerful of Palpatine's servants?


The Lando Calrissian trilogy





Flynn was what now?

You and Nai always ascribed to this "The older=better" silliness. I see when confronted with this example, the narrative shifts.



have a copy of SWgamer 5?


I don't have to downplay anything, the comics do it for me. Are you going to deny in Fall of the Sith Empire, they failed to take Kirrek that was undefended by all but two force sensitives? Or Cinnagar, defended by FOUR?
One of Naga Sadow's top Sith Lords even appears in Crosscurrent and y'know what? He wasn't really any stronger than some of the masters on Luke's council.


When did you even ask before?

In second and third books of The Lando Calrissian Adventures, numerous references are made to a "deadly green light" which Gepta used to destroy the Order of Tund, (after learning its secrets), as well as turn the entire planet Tund into a "sterile ball". Finally, in the third-to-last chapter of Lando Calrissian and The Starcave of ThonBoka, we see the full power of this destructive agent:

He raised a hand, as if in a magician's gesture. Outside, from one of the ungainly projections of the hull of the Wennis, there was a faint, fast squirt of brilliant life. Instantly it streaked toward a cluster of gigantic Oswaft who, since ceasing to fight, had been watching and listening. Sen and Fey were among them.

As the light point reached them, they began glowing a pale, sickly green and disappeared without a trace before their dying screams had faded. Whatever the weapon was, it could discriminate between real organic beings and the phony outlines Lando had taught them to create. Those remained like ghosts, hollow and insubstantial.

"That my dear Captain Calrissian, was a demonstration employing one times ten to the minus seventeenth of the power available to me. "

And also, on the Electromagnetic torpedo:
The electromagnetic torpedo was a container for Rokur Gepta's most powerful Force technique, which was one of the strongest powers of the dark side. It was the greatest achievement of any of the Sorcerers of Tund.



Exactly how many Alderaanian survivors took Palpatine up on his "offer and moved to Byss is unknown. What is certain is that it may have been better for them to have died in the disaster, considering what really happened to those hopefuls who came to the Deep Core stronghold. Many were simply rendered mindless slaves, going about their lives in a deadened bliss while Sidious and his Dark Side confidants fed from the energies of Byss and its inhabitants."



And Palpatine's Dark Side elites were the most powerful in his empire. So what?


Sedriss summoned enough in terms of force storm to match and obliterate Ood Bnar.
Nothing Nayriss ever does even begins to compare to Cronal making an ancient Sith Spirit his *****, either.


Yeah, he only walked into Korriban, enslaved a Sith Spirit and consumed its knowledge. He's shown he can dominate the minds of an entire armada...but Nayriss can use force lightning!
Wow, I'm sure that puts her up there with Gethzerion.


Uh, no. It was stated in Dark Empire 2 they were trained in Sith abilities. As seen when Sedriss and Vill Goir attempt what Luke describes as 'old, deadly Sith' trick that Vodo's Holocron taught him how to counter.

In addition, we know his Acolytes could utilize life drain on Byss's inhabitants. We know that there were accomplished Sith Sorcerers like Cronal in Palpatine's ranks. Hell, Cronal 's official title amongst the acolytes was 'Palpatine's Monster Maker' for his talent with Sith Alchemy.

Palpatine also pressed all the old Sith cults like the Prophets and Sun Guards into his order. Orders that were started by Sith and still had their teachings and some of their powers.

Or Thaum Rystra, one of the Dark Side adepts whose teacher was a trapped Sith spirit?



Okay, I'm not sure how to make it clearer: Kadann is said to have avoided combat out of distaste for it, despite his immense power. Only four force users, at his peak, were greater than him. And again, skilled use in force lightning is more than most of the councillors have


Sedriss: Matched powers with an ancient Jedi Master calling upon all the force powers of Ossus
Arden Lyn: Held her own against three members of the Inquisitorus when she'd just woken up, killed a strong JEdi master in single combat
Cronal: Half of Shadows of Mindor is dedicated to pointing out his immense power in the Dark Side, dominated a Sith Lord on Korriban
Jeng Droga: Nearly killed Kyle Katarn in Lightsaber combat
Jerec: Immobilized a Jedi master with a flick of his wrist.
Gethzerion: Killed an entire squad of storm troopers with....a flick of her finger

But no, the new guys just suck next to the old and aren't fit to kiss their boots, apparently

Wait, Sedriss obliterated Ood Bnar? Isn't that that Tree dude who survived a ****ing supernova? The ****?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yeah, you pretty much belittled his abilities, which makes my statements valid


I can see that you've lost your mind so again, let me dumb it down for you once again.
I said this:


You responded with this:

That is the classic example of a strawman. But instead of admitting your stupidity, you tried some type of desperation by claiming I belittled his abilities which is yet another strawman. Move on, you lose.



Unless you prove it does, you don't have a leg to stand on.





No, but I don't see you rushing to provide quotes or anything else.


Oh, I see you're back to psychoanalyzing fictional characters as yet another last resort. The simple fact is that they're dark side adepts with basic dark side powers and no sith knowledge or techniques. It's not their fault sure, but it doesn't put them on the same level as the most powerful sith lords of an empire.



Oh great, you finally listed a source. I'd say we were making headway but you've yet to provide any direct quotes.


No, our beliefs at least have logical reasoning behind it. Your pro PT stance doesn't. You haven't even attempted to make a valid argument, electing instead to play psychologist and dominate your posts with strawman fallacies.




How many sith lords were fighting exactly? And in the comics there were two jedi, but later sources say there were several hundred jedi and several hundred sith. How this even addresses the argument is beyond me.


First, prove he was one of sadow's top sith lords. Do so without reaching. And I'd say the masters on Luke's council are all stronger than Palpatine's dark side adepts.



Isn't this the guy who got owned by a non force sensitive?


That tells us absolutely nothing.



Oh right, the same drain that left everyone alive and only seemed to benefit Palpatine, also in an irrelevant way. By the way, as extensions of Palpatine's will, it's natural that they enjoy the same alleged benefits of the byss drain as Palpatine, which further proves my point. They didn't do anything.




Dark side adepts with basic dark side powers in an Empire whose majority is non force sensitives. Completely different from the True Sith empire where there were full fledged sith lords with vast knowledge.


Sedriss obliterated a tree and did nothing else. Oh wait, the tree obliterated him. Nyriss owns Cronal because we see her impressive combat skill, while Cronal "owned" a sith spirit. Nice argument there, chief.


Cronal dominated the minds of how many non force sensitives again? Oh crap, this must mean he can fight!



Congratulations, you have proven that Sedriss knows one sith trick where he's moving his fingers around like a drunk, and easily countered by Luke.


What exactly did Cronal do? You keep listing titles and paraphrasing quotes, but what relevance do they have? Also, how do we know his acolytes could utilize life drain on Byss? Not that it matters, since they should as extensions of Palpatine's will.


When you are arguing complete unknowns mixed with Palpatine's unwillingness to teach sith techniques to non sith, you start reaching





Prove his power was immense in terms of combat prowess, not foresight. Don't make excuses for Kadann. Prove only four force users were greater than him. Nothing about Kadann puts him on par with the sith lords from the true sith empire.



A true that has no combat prowess.


Prove he was a "strong jedi master" without making things up.


Again, another alleged quote mixed with a feat that while impressive, is ultimately irrelevant.


OHHHHHH

OHHHHH

Cool, a feat replicated by MANY others.

Yes, when you make absurd comparisons between dark side adepts and Dark Lords, then this is what happens. But then again, you tried arguing that Lynn existing for 25,000 years is more impressive than Vitiate's immortality, so it's pretty much downhill for you.

Wait, is the tree Jedi being argued as a contender on KMC?

Why is he a great example of power, but Arca Jeth who can dismantle battle droids with a "simple tug of the Force" and Vodo who can make a wooden stick stronger than a lightsaber are both somehow weak and unable to be substantiated whenever Exar Kun or Freedan Nadd's prowess is on the table?

Am I missing something here?

Nope, you're on the right track.

http://badatsports.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/Family-Guy-4ACX29-Evil-Tree-300x225.png

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I can see that you've lost your mind so again, let me dumb it down for you once again.
I said this:

You responded with this:

That is the classic example of a strawman. But instead of admitting your stupidity, you tried some type of desperation by claiming I belittled his abilities which is yet another strawman. Move on, you lose.


Your entire argument is "LOL OOD SUCKS LOL"
So, no, it's not anything short of fitting.


"Prove he's powerful with the force"
*Provides a quote saying he is."
"...Nuh uh."

Yeah, we're done there





I enjoy how burden of proof shifts, again, when you disagree.

"This was why Cronal had chosen the code name Blackhole: because he
had willed himself to become an event horizon of the Dark.
And of all the powers the Dark granted its adepts, the greatest was
Darksight. It was Darksight that had led Cronal far from the Nihil Retreat,
beyond the Perann Nebula and out of the Unknown Regions altogether, in
search of the truth of his visions. It was Darksight that had led him to
Dromund Kaas, where he had easily infiltrated and come to dominate that
pack of pathetic, self-deluded fools who styled themselves Prophets of the
Dark Side.
Imagine, to waste one's brief foray in life, the fleeting bright instant
between the infinite dark before and the eternal dark beyond, in mere
study-in trying to learn to use the "dark side of the Force" to merely predict
the future. With Darksight, Cronal could create the future"

"Though Vader could never have been Cronal's equal in coursing the mazy
paths of dark power, it had served Cronal's purpose to pretend jealousy even
to appear to fail, more than once, and to openly bridle under Vader's
supposed authority"





Dark Empire 2: We have those 'basic adepts' being personally empowered by Palpatine and using what Luke calls old Sith tricks.

The Prophets and Sun Guards were already trained in Sith alchemy. One adept's master was a sith spirit he held captive.

Oh, more Sith powers from Cronal alone:
"And that ancient Sith alchemy had given him the knowledge to forge a
device to control the living crystal that formed the structure of Mindorese
meltmassif...

AND he knows Essence Transfer.




We're not even discussing the PT here, silly.
Moreover, relying on 'psychology?' Yeah, Dark Siders tend to earn their titles





Your turn for sources.
I'd like to see a source that cites several hundred Jedi on Kirrek or Cinnagar.
We saw at least two Sith Lords on either planet, too. Guys in golden armor with giant swords



Kam Solusar was one of those Dark Side adepts. Sedriss was stronger than any, save Luke, and we saw Dark Side adepts match and have the ability to defeat Luke's students. Just ask, say, JEng Droga, who took Kyle Katarn to defeat.

And as for Saes Rrogon, he is described as one of Naga's "Firsts"

"The honorific Captain still struck Saes's hearing oddly. He was accustomed
to leading hunting parties as a First, not ships as a Captain."
And he is the commander of the Harbinger in Sadow's fleet



Lando got off a lucky shot when Gepta was stunned by his ship's destruction


Okay.
That expressly describes the elctromagnetic torpedo (which I included a passage of) as one of the force's most powerful dark side techniques.

He wiped out Tund with it



When did it say that precisely?
And 'let everyone alive?' He wanted to. Why kill your food supply?



It says clearly they did the force drain as well.





You ignore how Palpatine had an enormous amount of dark siders under his command. The elites are just that: Elite



"Ancient Sith are AWESOME!....except when it goes against my argument."
Sedriss killed and was killed by (IE: Matching) an ancient Jedi calling upon all the power of one of the strongest worlds in the force.




I love how using a legitimate force power makes him weak.





Yeah, because we all know Luke is weak.
I've already shown he can use deadly Sith powers. Your move, dear.



When precisely did it call them extensions of Palpatine's will? Can you contextualize the meaning of that? His Hands are 'extensions' as well.

And Cronal created many creatures with Sith Alchemy, his mind control helmet, two of Jerec's Sithspawn Dark Jedi, Gorc and Pic...that's a start



What's 'reaching?' We've seen flat out he did. Cronal even reflects that Palpatine taught him Transfer Essence.





Now you start showing me what they have that puts them on par with him.
I have established Kadann's power in the force, his incredible abilities with forefight, his ability to generate powerful force lightning (such as when he tortured Grand Admiral Makati)

Show me the great feats of those Sith, who got owned by a guy who ran into a lightsaber



Prove it. The fact that he trained Duron Qel-Droma and Shaela Nuur in lightsabers and the force proves otherwise



Pina was one of the leading Jedi against the Legions of Lettow, yeah



I love how crushing an ancient sith on Korriban is 'irrelevant'



Sources. Keep in mind Gethzerion's a Nightsster, too



NExt you'll be arguing Vitiate's immortality surpasses Plagueis's

LS, dude, you've been fighting a losing battle with for years. We need to have an intervention.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Wait, is the tree Jedi being argued as a contender on KMC?

Why is he a great example of power, but Arca Jeth who can dismantle battle droids with a "simple tug of the Force" and Vodo who can make a wooden stick stronger than a lightsaber are both somehow weak and unable to be substantiated whenever Exar Kun or Freedan Nadd's prowess is on the table?

Am I missing something here?

Arca's quite powerful. So is Ood.
Vodo's feat was replicated (And surpassed) by Jedi like Torr Snappit,Satele Shan and Corran Horn (and the latter two weren't even fully trained). Vodo was also a joke of a master who did nothing but screw up and fail miserably when he didn't have, what, a half dozen other Jedi backing him up?

Sure Vodo's impressive. He's a Jedi Master. Of course, everyone who claims he's worthy of being in the same sentence as people like Satele Shan, Yoda, Luke, Mace Windu? You better start listing his achievments.

Hell, blocking one swing of Exar Kun's DBL is already more impressive from Ood than what Vodo did

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
LS, dude, you've been fighting a losing battle with for years. We need to have an intervention.

Lol, no need. He's a firm proponent of last word in=victory.

....do you not bother to look at context?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I enjoy how burden of proof shifts, again, when you disagree.

"This was why Cronal had chosen the code name Blackhole: because he
had willed himself to become an event horizon of the Dark.
And of all the powers the Dark granted its adepts, the greatest was
Darksight. It was Darksight that had led Cronal far from the Nihil Retreat,
beyond the Perann Nebula and out of the Unknown Regions altogether, in
search of the truth of his visions. It was Darksight that had led him to
Dromund Kaas, where he had easily infiltrated and come to dominate that
pack of pathetic, self-deluded fools who styled themselves Prophets of the
Dark Side.
Imagine, to waste one's brief foray in life, the fleeting bright instant
between the infinite dark before and the eternal dark beyond, in mere
study-in trying to learn to use the "dark side of the Force" to merely predict
the future. With Darksight, Cronal could create the future"

"Though Vader could never have been Cronal's equal in coursing the mazy
paths of dark power, it had served Cronal's purpose to pretend jealousy even
to appear to fail, more than once, and to openly bridle under Vader's
supposed authority"


Jeez. How come I've never heard of this guy if he's apparantly Vaders superior?

To be fair, Cronal wasn't remotely developed until Shadows of Mindor

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Arca's quite powerful.

Actually, when Arca Jeth's prowess was brought up before, you yourself said he had to have sucked because he was shot by droids on the battlefield. So this comes as a surprise hearing you reverse that decision. Not that you're unable to change your mind; far from it. Just saying.



Ood is not at all recognized for his Force prowess nor his combat prowess. His role in The Sith Wars was mainly to prevent Exar Kun from getting a small collection of lightsabers and tomes of unknown value. He proved his physical resilience when he absorbed a full on slash from a Massassi warrior. But that's the extent of his resistance before he morphs into a tree.

The point being, Ood should not be used as a "powerful" Force user, or you've just opened the door for people you've disputed like Kavar for example, who demonstrated the ability to freeze multiple people in an instant, a feat not replicated by Ood, Arca Jeth, or Yoda for that matter.

If you're taking one example of Force use or "resilience" and applying it as a shining example of powerful, capable, or any other loaded term, allow me to re-introduce Kavar.

Wait, he sucks because his death at the hands of Kreia implies she was more powerful than Sidioussome folks.



Right, but you see the point I was making? There's tons of one-trick ponies and nebulous Force users in Star Wars. If you allow quantifiers like "powerful" to be used, then you have to provide more context to support just how powerful. Vodo's not shown us anything exceptional, but in the context of his story, he is supposed to be a dueler and master of some repute. But against established badasses like say, Sidious or Yoda, he couldn't hold a candle.



Vodo took on Exar Kun by himself, and underestimated him. Let's forget that Kun was already a prodigious duelist, foremost in his era excepting Ulic, and that he's channeling Force power exponentially stronger than what he possessed in the last duel which he won as well.

Vodo was always in over his head, that's not contested. But he still had some power. But you yourself wouldn't call him "powerful" as you are with Ood Bnar, correct?



Now you're turning the argument against me and confusing the point. I'm not here to defend Vodo; I'm here to point out the obvious hypocrisy in defending Ood Bnar, the Tree Jedi Master, to defend someone else's reputation in a method to stretch it and defend Sidious' reputation. That's like the Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon just to substantiate power.



Considering Vodo was able to trade more than one blow, I'd say your point is moot. Ood was a stationary combatant who could absorb most attacks, so he had nothing to worry about. And in the end, Exar Kun was not seriously interested in destroying him as he was his master, Vodo.

And Ood did really good being powerful against that supernova:

http://s8.postimage.org/qgq0boya9/Capture2.jpg

How many Force users do you know who've survived a supernova?

How many force users do you know who can morph into a tree and withstand the cataclysm as part of their metamorphosis? Also, explain its relevance.

I'm just shocked at how dismissive he's being at someones ability to survive a freaking supernova. I mean, everyone does that shit, right?

He's a damn tree. What does his surviving the cataclysm have to do with his martial prowess or force abilities?

I've already explained what it has to do with it. That Sedriss was able to destroy a combatant who can tank a supernova explosion is very impressive.

Sedriss didn't destroy him. Ood destroyed him and himself. And I'm not sure how the two are even linked. But it's funny.

Right, but the panels clearly state that Ood Bnar knows he can't defeat Exar Kun, and he admits combat is not his art or speciality.

So the point remains, who ****ing cares what a tree can do to turn into a supernova soaking tree? How is that relevant to ANYTHING?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Sedriss didn't destroy him. Ood destroyed him and himself. And I'm not sure how the two are even linked. But it's funny.

Really, I was under the impression they destroyed each other, not that Ood killed both of them.

Still having an issue with relevance?

Originally posted by Nephthys
I've already explained what it has to do with it. That Sedriss was able to destroy a combatant who can tank a supernova explosion is very impressive.

When the scope of this feat has any bearing on a Versus match, I'll be impressed.

In the meantime, I don't care.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Actually, when Arca Jeth's prowess was brought up before, you yourself said he had to have sucked because he was shot by droids on the battlefield. So this comes as a surprise hearing you reverse that decision. Not that you're unable to change your mind; far from it. Just saying.

Not exactly. I said Arca was a moron because he decided to drop his guard and lecture Ulic with Krath war droids everywhere. There's a difference




I just provided a quote to the contrary. And again, with a saber, he's already got a better feat than Vodo



Given he thought to protect them from Exar at all costs, and they were instrumental to the New Jedi Order, I'd say they were QUITE valuable.



Kavar's done this to Force sensitives?
And didn't Yoda freeze Ventress in mid swing in The Clone Wars?



When were we talking resilience here?


Because Palpatine has never owned force users before.



Yeah, except the others ALL have something going for them. In the comic or in future material. Vodo and Odan, on the other hand are failures in the comics, failures out of them, have nothing to their name that we can verify. Vodo's supposed to be a duelist of 'some' repute, but the fact his apprentice kicked his ass while a guy who isn't 'combat oriented' did better (again, against one strike) and how he was owned when facing Jar'Kai doesn't say much for him.

Sure, Vodo's impressive in response to probably most. But to the cream of the crop, he's not much. Which is the thing here.






Kun was an experienced and talented duelist at that point, yes. The thing is, Vodo is supposed to be a top tier, ultra experienced one. He sure isn't coming across as one and his sole solo force feat is replicated and surpassed. Thrice over



I'd call him powerful. I wouldn't call him as powerful. I can recognize Vodo is meant to be a powerful and skilled Jedi master. Of the four big ones there though, he comes across as in the lesser two




We have a direct quote on Ood's power is the thing. And defend Sidious's rep? There's no need for that here. DS is arguing that Palpatine's servitors are all low end scrubs, which is clearly idiotic if one his elites can match an ancient Jedi master getting a boost from Ossus, one can eliminate all life off a planet...




Really? When Exar pulled out the DBL? He ran at Vodo and Vodo failed against the first hit. Ood blocked his by contrast.

And Kun was 'seriously interested' in destroying Vodo? He was trying to get Vodo to join his order, if you recall. Also, I'd think 'impending supernova' might qualify as a cause for haste


I would say 'survival' is a pretty decent thing there

Oh boy, now you've done it Janus. Enjoy an all night of textual interaction.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
When the scope of this feat has any bearing on a Versus match, I'll be impressed.

In the meantime, I don't care.

I don't believe Lightsnake or myself were trying to entertain you. What he, and later I, was doing was trying to prove that Sedriss is a powerful Force user.


And I'll remind you that he's being compared to completely featless individuals. So your whole 'you can't call Ood powerful when he hasn't demonstrated anything in combat' thing is far more applicable to the Dark Council rather than people who have, y'know, actual feats.

Nothing about Sedriss makes him anything but an average force user. Even Nyriss' one feat is enough to put her over the dark side adepts because it was a relevant, combat feat. Now let's see, a sith lord with vast resources at his/her disposal or an extension of Palpatine's will? That's a toughy!

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't believe Lightsnake or myself were trying to entertain you. What he, and later I, was doing was trying to prove that Sedriss is a powerful Force user.

Right, by establishing that he died at the hands of a tree Jedi who soaked a supernova well before the battle and has dubious powers at best, and clearly was no match for a Massassi warrior in combat, nor was he able to best Exar Kun even for a second.

What's the point? How is power substantiated here? Is blowing up trees now a requirement for who is or isn't the mightiest Sith/Jedi?



Ood is a self-professed weakling and his only Force feat is turning into a strong, resilient tree.

When that becomes better showings than simply surviving to make it to the Dark Council in the era of the true Sith, let me know. Weak Sith do not make it do the Dark Council. Whether or not they can slingshot suns around with their power is irrelevant; they are of repute, and contextually that means they are not weaklings.

Ood Bnar is a weakling. His resistance began and ended with blocking one swing, getting cut in the back with an axe, falling on his knees, and then using a technique to become a better tree.

HOLY **** AM I IMPRESSED.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Nothing about Sedriss makes him anything but an average force user. Even Nyriss' one feat is enough to put her over the dark side adepts because it was a relevant, combat feat. Now let's see, a sith lord with vast resources at his/her disposal or an extension of Palpatine's will? That's a toughy!

I would agree that Nyriss seems like an extremely powerful Sith Lord from what I've heard. But the other faceless goons are complete unknowns.

Sedriss was capable of generating a powerful force storm from the planet's atmosphere and matched strength with Ood Bnar.

Also, when was being one of Palpatine's servants supposed to count AGAINST you as far as power went?

Seriously, what implies that Palpatine's dream of a dark side theocracy was staffed by mediocre Dark Jedi now? Also, amusingly, Ventress by feats ranks well above most of the Dark Council

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Right, by establishing that he died at the hands of a tree Jedi who soaked a supernova well before the battle and has dubious powers at best, and clearly was no match for a Massassi warrior in combat, nor was he able to best Exar Kun even for a second.

What's the point? How is power substantiated here? Is blowing up trees now a requirement for who is or isn't the mightiest Sith/Jedi?

Jesus Chirst Moose, its not exactly hard to understand.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Ood is a self-professed weakling and his only Force feat is turning into a strong, resilient tree.

When that becomes better showings than simply surviving to make it to the Dark Council in the era of the true Sith, let me know. Weak Sith do not make it do the Dark Council. Whether or not they can slingshot suns around with their power is irrelevant; they are of repute, and contextually that means they are not weaklings.

Ood Bnar is a weakling. His resistance began and ended with blocking one swing, getting cut in the back with an axe, falling on his knees, and then using a technique to become a better tree.

HOLY **** AM I IMPRESSED.


'I think you are under the impression that I was arguing Ood was powerful or a skilled combatant, when all I mentioned was his durability in surviving a supernova.'

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Right, by establishing that he died at the hands of a tree Jedi who soaked a supernova well before the battle and has dubious powers at best, and clearly was no match for a Massassi warrior in combat, nor was he able to best Exar Kun even for a second.

What's the point? How is power substantiated here? Is blowing up trees now a requirement for who is or isn't the mightiest Sith/Jedi?


Yes, being blindsided by a Massassi while being locked in combat with Exar Kun means you suck. And wait, since when are Neti weak? They're a species that's produced many great Jedi.
Sedriss matched an ancient Jedi master focusing all his power on him with power from Ossus. that's fact



He is not. He said combat was not his main skill. Yoda has said the same. Many Jedi have



Weak force users don't make it on the Dark Side elite, your point?



And with that one swing (And that was the whole fight), he did better than Vodo. And?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Sedriss was capable of generating a powerful force storm from the planet's atmosphere and matched strength with Ood Bnar.

So he matched strength with a tree Jedi who couldn't outfight a Massassi and had no chance in hell against Exar Kun.

Can you paint a better picture here with direct quotes?



I don't follow this.



Well, the fact that he never wanted a threat to his power. This is a guy who, according to the Dark Empire Sourcebook, was afraid that Thrawn would usurp his power. Apparently, giving your Dark Side Adepts anything more than rudimentary knowledge and power would be a bad thing if you're a paranoid Sith Lord who aspires to be the only Sith lord ever, according to the new Plagueis book.

So really, what's indicating that Sidious allows his Adepts to pursue power on the scale that the Dark Council is given fredom? Hell, they've got first-week students of theirs raiding tombs of the ancients on Korriban, and perusing materials on several Sith homeworlds. I'd say that the Dark Council is more inclined to be educated in the Sith ways, more able to freely use those powers, and definitely having used them to acquire their coveted spots on the Council.



If you mean Ventress has a boatload of more visible feats, then yes, you're right. She is a G-canon character with entire novels and TV shows dedicated to her struggles. The Dark Council is a new entity comprised of Sith Lords of which we know very little at this time.

So yes, you get a point here. Well done.

Ah **** it, I can't argue consistently with you, LS. I'd waste the whole night.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
So he matched strength with a tree Jedi who couldn't outfight a Massassi and had no chance in hell against Exar Kun.

Can you paint a better picture here with direct quotes?

I've already freling posted it, geez.
"he was an expert at using the Force, and had a wide array of powers in his repertoire."




Militarily. He also assigned Jerec to a small ship because he trusted him so little, but Jerec had Sith knowledge



We already knew this from Palpatine. But just because he doesn't teach everything doesn't mean he doesn't teach. Palpatine, in Jedi vs. Sith, says you should teach, but not too much too quickly (Which was Plagueis's era)



You're probably right they're more educated in Sith ways. That doesn't make them more powerful. Especially when Cronal absolutely dominated one of those ancient Sith on Korriban itself.

It'd also be kinda hard for Palps to make the Sith Cults he inducted to forget everything they'd learned to that point. Ad also, according to Darth Plagueis, Palpatine and Plagueis really didn't give a damn about the Rule of Two. The audio excerpt has Plagueis declared it's over and done


And is the possibility of her being stronger than some Sith so hard to accept? She's clearly stronger than Sith of other eras. It could just be possible that some guys in some eras are just as strong as the ones preceding them.

Also, given Karpyshyn's immature "LOLOLOL I MAKE THEM EXPLODE THINGS" style of writing with every side character he wants you to think is worth a damn?

SM
Right, but the panels clearly state that Ood Bnar knows he can't defeat Exar Kun,

? This one says otherwise.

@ Lightsnake

You need to read the novel before you can form a valid opinion. Don't try to act smart.

Just one Dark Council member was able to handle Lord Scourge and Jedi Exile simultaneously, both of whom were no jokes in combat and were expert duelists. Jedi Exile specially has history of defeating powerful Sith Lords.

Originally posted by RevanSpoilers
? This one says otherwise.

You being literal with a source? No way!

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
@ Lightsnake

You need to read the novel before you can form a valid opinion. Don't try to act smart.

Just one Dark Council member was able to handle Lord Scourge and Jedi Exile simultaneously, both of whom were no jokes in combat and were expert duelists. Jedi Exile specially has history of defeating powerful Sith Lords.

No, she defeated Meetra Surik. Meetra Surik is the Jedi Exile with a full lobotomy and a Midichlorian drian. Only way one can explain her in that book.

Lol.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, she defeated Meetra Surik.
You think that I don't have the novel? Don't take me for a fool.

She fought both Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik simultaneously and overpowered both of them. She was about to kill them both when Revan stepped in.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Meetra Surik is the Jedi Exile with a full lobotomy and a Midichlorian drian. Only way one can explain her in that book.
Irrelevant gibberish. She still is an accomplished warrior. And Drew considered her powerful too and never downplayed her accomplishments.

Your habit of calling others out on exaggerated or altogether nonexistent faults notwithstanding, it is evident that you don't know what psychoanalysis is. What LS provided you was an accurate assessment of a phenomenon based on character traits that have been detailed explicitly and expansively throughout the canon. With regard to the numerous branches of acolytes and allies under his supervision - Force-sensitive or otherwise - pursuing an independent or auxiliary combat focus, Palpatine does not devote his attention to grooming the pedestrian. His elite are chosen from the most talented specimens in his reach, and even within that most exclusive corp are subdivisions and rankings arbitrated by distributions of marked supercompetency.


And as per a citation from The Dark Side Sourcebook provided by the late Gideon, only high level practitioners of the dark side can master alchemy.







And it should be noted that Oswaft measure over half a kilometer across each, make independent hyperspace jumps, and engage in single combat with battle cruisers.



Katarn was among the most gifted swordsmen not named "Skywalker" in the post-OT era. You'll pardon LS if he points this out as an example of you belittling particular characters, although I'm sure he'll give you points for doing it so articulately.

More telling, I think, is that Droga himself was strong enough to serve as a vessel for the reborn Emperor's spirit in the absence of a suitable permanent host, and emerged from his tenure with neither the degenerative dementia or accelerated physical decay that crippled the rest. The Emperor himself knew it would take strength unique in that time to the Skywalker bloodline to adequately contain his energies; that Droga could so for a time and survive relatively unscathed indicates that his own gifts are not inconsiderable.



Stretching that a bit, Emperor Palpatine and Starkiller come to mind. Distinguished company. Who else?

Your reasoning here reminds me of what Legend tries to do with his observations about non-TOR characters and their traits. They're "not invincible," or hardly "perfect," as if this establishes an unseen and exploitable degree of incompetence. Hardly a single demonstration of prescience, skill or power from any of the Sith Lords newly featured in The Old Republic has not been approximated by someone else at some other point in time. Is Nyriss' assault on Scourge and the Exile - her singular combat feat, if I'm to take the evidence presented at face value - rendered unimpressive because hordes of characters have doled out similar domination elsewhere? Is Revan's handling of her lightning not that big of a deal because individuals from Rahm Kota to Worror have done something like it, too, sometimes against more powerful Sith Lords?

Of course not. A feat does not need to be unique to be impressive. Lightsnake has never asserted that any of Palpatine's non-Sith minions - or in the case of Gethzerion , unassociated contemporaries - are uniquely powerful, merely that they are powerful, often unusually so and to a degree that indicates they may well rival or surpass some of the Sith of another age, Dark Lords or otherwise. I find it very plausible that Gethzerion, Starkiller, Cronal, and Joruus could be on par with or stronger than members of the Dark Council.


And then there's this ridiculous line of reasoning. Darth Nyriss is clearly an uncommonly formidable Force-user, but her might doesn't associatively reflect on her peers on the Dark Council any more than that of Mace Windu or Yoda upon Coleman Trebor or Yarael Poof, a fact illustrated unambiguously by the Jedi assault on Chancellor Palpatine.

Oh, yes, and one other detail I keep pointing out: Cronal is on the level of a Dark Lord of the Sith. While it might be Cronal overestimating himself, Shadows of Mindor states he was more skilled in the darkside than even Vader. He also states he views titles like 'Jedi, Sith, etc' as something wholly meaningless. He's not a Sith because he's too hardcore a darksider for them

Originally posted by Eminence
Your reasoning here reminds me of what Legend tries to do with his observations about non-TOR characters and their traits. They're "not invincible," or hardly "perfect," as if this establishes an unseen and exploitable degree of incompetence.
I never stated that the elite of PT/OT are incompetent. However, some perceive them as untouchables who would destroy the elite of other eras were mere thoughts and gestures. I intend to quell this myth. Versus section is filled with speculations on these affairs. There is a strong need of logic and common sense in these kinds of debates. Every character has strengths and weaknesses. The elite of PT/OT are no exception to this rule.

Here is an example:

I doubt that Mace Windu was powerful enough to go toe-to-toe with Palpatine. Yet he did because of advantage of Vaapad and Shatterpoint.

In comparison, Yoda did not had this advantage. He had greater experience and command of the Force then Mace Windu and this enabled him to go toe-to-toe with Palpatine.

However, if we consider the possible outcomes of both duels on fair basis; Mace Windu came closer to kill Palpatine then Master Yoda.

See the point?

The problem here is that the fans of PT/OT era characters tend to ignore the weaknesses and limitations of these characters and only consider their strengths in arguments. They fail to acknowledge the dynamic nature of Star Wars.

Originally posted by Eminence
Hardly a single demonstration of prescience, skill or power from any of the Sith Lords newly featured in The Old Republic has not been approximated by someone else at some other point in time.
I disagree. The elite of TOR have demonstrated unique capabilities and powers in certain cases. In fact, TOR is expected to introduce new Force powers that have never been demonstrated by others.

Originally posted by Eminence
Is Nyriss' assault on Scourge and the Exile - her singular combat feat, if I'm to take the evidence presented at face value - rendered unimpressive because hordes of characters have doled out similar domination elsewhere?
Proving to be a match for two accomplished warriors simultaneously is no small feat. Some have comparable or better feats but numbers are still few if we consider whole history of the Star Wars mythos.

Originally posted by Eminence
Is Revan's handling of her lightning not that big of a deal because individuals from Rahm Kota to Worror have done something like it, too, sometimes against more powerful Sith Lords?
Except that Nyriss's signature Force Lightning had unique properties and possessed the power to incinerate powerful opponents with relative ease? Just because Revan handled it so that power was no big deal?

And Worror turned out to be a joke when he engaged in open confrontation with the two powerful Sith Lords. Lsu was the only opponent worth noting and she was cut down through unfair means.

Rahm Kota was good but hardly an elite. It can be argued that Lord Scourge alone was better combatant. This guy was an expert swordsman demonstrating Juyo, Ataru, and Soresu, and easily switching between these combat Forms amidst the duels. Revan noted that this guy had brilliant potential. Lord Scourge could also fight in extreme environmental conditions. He singlehandidly took care of an old Dark Council member and his two finest warriors by himself in a duel. And not to forget that Lord Scourge was well noted in the Empire for his exploits in battles outside of Kaas planet.

Originally posted by Eminence
Of course not. A feat does not need to be unique to be impressive.
You have a point. This logic applies to Galen as well. His moving of the Star Destroyer is a unique feat. However, this does not makes Galen untouchable in combat.

Originally posted by Eminence
Lightsnake has never asserted that any of Palpatine's non-Sith minions - or in the case of Gethzerion , unassociated contemporaries - are uniquely powerful, merely that they are powerful, often unusually so and to a degree that indicates they may well rival or surpass some of the Sith of another age, Dark Lords or otherwise. I find it very plausible that Gethzerion, Starkiller, Cronal, and Joruus could be on par with or stronger than members of the Dark Council.
Point to be noted. However, if they have collectively challenged Darth Sidious in a single duel, did he possessed the power to kill all of them simultaneously?

Originally posted by Eminence
And then there's this ridiculous line of reasoning. Darth Nyriss is clearly an uncommonly formidable Force-user, but her might doesn't associatively reflect on her peers on the Dark Council any more than that of Mace Windu or Yoda upon Coleman Trebor or Yarael Poof, a fact illustrated unambiguously by the Jedi assault on Chancellor Palpatine.
Valid point. Though Xedrix was the only Dark Council member pointed out by her who was not in his prime condition. She sent Lord Scourge to take care of him. Others were not established as weak like him.

Regardless of weak and strong argument; the collective might of 10 or 12 Dark Council members would have been incredible.

Some people just can't quit while they're behind.

Also


This begs for proof.



What more powerful sith lords?Also, your main fault is comparing my argument to SWL. I never asserted that it's impossible for some members during the Galactic Empire to be more powerful than some of the Dark Council. Sure, it's possible. But given what we know based on Lightsnake's argument, it's highly unlikely that anyone other than that Nightsister woman or Marek have any showings worthy of comparison. I really want to use the TOR game for these dark lords and their ridiculous feats but it's a beta so that'll be the winning argument after the game is released.

Originally posted by Kotor3
All out.

Darth Sidious without question.

Vitiate may pose a threat to Sidious in the force, but there is nothing to indicate that he can even stand up to Sidious in a lightsaber duel, which is what it may have to come down to.

Without question? Hardly. He does have more feats to his name.

Yes, without question. There is no way Vitiate can simply over come Sidious with the force (if he can overcome him at all. I still say DE Sidious is the superior force user); however, without Vitiate having much experience with a saber, Sidious would butcher him.

Don't think you're an authority of who Vitiate can overcome with the force. You saying no way is the same thing as me saying yes way and it means the same thing. But there are too many unknowns so the discussion is moot.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Don't think you're an authority of who Vitiate can overcome with the force. You saying no way is the same thing as me saying yes way and it means the same thing. But there are too many unknowns so the discussion is moot.

This is an all out battle though. Even if he can overcome Sidious in a force battle, it would take a lot of effort to do.

If you want to debate their power in the force, we can do that. But the all out goes to Sidious hands down, especially if Vitiate is not an experienced lightsaber duelist.

I'd give the saber fight to sidious.

Drew finally emailed me back.

I wrote:


He wrote:

So... he doesn't have an editor.

Have you READ his books?

No, yeah, I know. Obvious answer.

Question is how do you mix up KOTOR and swtor when you were largely responsible for the creation of both.

To be fair, I can't exactly recall every single detail of every fictional character I've created.

But we're mostly full or part time SW debaters, and we're specifically trained to nitpick everything to death, catching inaccuracies so that we can crush the competition.

That sounds alot cooler than 'we're nerds.'

Which we are.

There's always another group we can cite as being worse. That's what helps us sleep at night. Well, for Gideon there's that Sidious full body pillow.

Trekkies and sports fans. Bunch o' weirdos.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
There's always another group we can cite as being worse. That's what helps us sleep at night. Well, for Gideon there's that Sidious full body pillow.

I was going to go with the Sidious vibrator.

Whether or not my fiance prefer's a vibrator is irrelevant to your sexual stimulant preference.

Palpatine and Bane. The "from" was deliberately inclusive of everyone relevant who wasn't Kota or Worror, too.

But you both missed the point, which I think we'll let go, and neglected to answer my question:






No, you just don't understand what it was you were supposed to glean from the comparison. Read it again twice, and while drunk, please.


Your stance on the matter is clear:





That last one's particularly important, because they haven't. We have seen two members of that Dark Council in combat, and it will suffice to say that ten members of the Council have not shown power beyond any of the dark side adepts in question, and the set of inferences we can make on their abilities from what implications exist in the text does not include the idea that they have power beyond all of the dark side adepts in question.


I'd argue that Joruus, Kadann and Cronal are all contenders as well. If we're being honest here they all have considerably more to their names than the inferences you're making for the Sith based on what must have been a very selective reading of Revan. Xedrix, the senior member of the Dark Council, is at the time of his death so enfeebled by age and the ravaging effects of the dark side that his reserves of power are emptied by the gathering of energy for a single gout of lightning; this assault rips through Scourge's defense but ultimately keeps him off his feet for mere moments. Xedrix, literally powerless, is then promptly executed.

Even if I were to generously propose that such infirmity is unique among his peers to him, that his "enormous" (per Scourge) power is not, and that as such any of them would have performed more admirably in that situation, this sets a far lower bar for maintenance of status on the Council than you'd have me believe. Lord Scourge admits that even a warrior as formidable as he wouldn't have a chance at selection before spending years establishing his name and lobbying for influence, and his discussions with Nyriss confirm that much of the strife council members deal with originates from political and economic subterfuge rather than any overt contest in combat. The truth is that while a place on the council carries with it an implication of uncommon Force-sensitivity (again, per Scourge), it is a guarantee first and foremost of bureaucratic and conspiratorial prowess and not of consistently formidable ability in combat.


Given that it'll take place roughly three hundred years after their collective deaths I find it exceedingly unlikely that they'll be afforded any such retrospection. Don't hold your breath.

Originally posted by Eminence
Palpatine and Bane. The "from" was deliberately inclusive of everyone relevant who wasn't Kota or Worror, too.
Fair enough.

I want to list examples from the new video games, what these overpowered sith lords are capable of.



I don't think it is, so unless you elaborate I'll take that as filler material. I've made it clear where I stand and where I differ from SWL.




Because we've seen one dark council member, it's fair to assume the others have powers around that range. I'm essentially dealing with less material but you almost make it seem that those with more feats to their names equates to victory for those characters. But I would argue that the one force blast from Xedrix is enough to kill force users. Scourge's armor was virtually destroyed and his injuries were considerable even from that one force blast.


I'm now familiar with relevant combat applications or martial prowess of those characters. I remember the most important thing Joruus did was mind link a few thousand crew members. And yes, Xedrix is the weakest member of the dark council but I suppose my biggest fault is including knowledge from a game nobody else here has played, which is what I'm going on, not the Revan novel. And the reason I include it while it's a beta is because most of those cut scenes (if not all), won't change. Based on 2-3 builds already, the only thing that seems to change is Revan's status after the flashpoint and the Emperor's final duel.


There is a certain battle ritual that has happened a few times on Kaas City in the game, over the past few thousand years, that has almost destroyed the planet. The ritual occurs usually between two dark council members. Maybe Janus could help me with the name of it but it's a pretty big part of the history of Dromund Kaas. Mix that in with the amount of sick force feats in the Dark Temple and you have the makings of some incredibly powerful sith, past and present. Obviously, again, this may be premature in a debate where only 1-2 people have actually played the game.




Referring to the current dark council members, as well as their underlings.

Also, not that it matters anymore but you haven't answered MY question as to how I'm misusing certain terms.

Those overpowered Sith Lords aren't the ones we're discussing; the Dark Council circa TOR is comprised entirely of different people than the one in Revan.


?

I just posted four of your own appraisals of the adepts relative to the members of the Dark Council. Unless you haven't been accurately representing your stance I know exactly what it is.


Again: you missed the point. I wasn't comparing your stance on the Dark Council to Legend's stance on the Dark Council, I was noting a similarity between how you insinuated virtual ubiquity of a feat among higher end Force-users, from which follows a lack of significance, to the way Legend asserts that characters like Vader or Bane are imperfect and fallible in a manner intended to undermine any case being made for them. It's a weak front.

Honestly, just don't worry about it. It's an issue tangential to something that isn't the focus of this discussion and not worth getting mixed up about.

But you still haven't answered my question.



Your model has discrepancies of its own anyway, namely that we've seen two dark council members miles apart in ability and your estimation only takes into account the stronger one.


No, simply that they have enough to their name that we can make inferences just as you have, but they're less nebulous because we have more to work with.


It's enough to kill some, sure. But you need to keep in mind that he required the intervention of two of his acolytes to keep distance and steal time with which to gather the power - all of it - for that one attack, and there are many far stronger than Lord Scourge whose defenses probably wouldn't be shredded so easily to begin with.


There's no mention of damage to his armor, but yes, he does suffer burns and a great deal of pain. Still, he's on his feet in a few moments.


Once more: those are not the same Dark Lords. This is like comparing the KOTOR Jedi High Council to that of the PT. It doesn't work.


Remember to share the specifics when you find them.


I will, later. I have the final draft of a term paper to turn in tonight and haven't been following you closely enough over the past few months to recall past examples of the behavior in question; I will dig through the Battle Bar later this week to find our last discussion, where the most recent case in memory lies.

Don't worry about that for now.

Originally posted by Eminence
Those overpowered Sith Lords aren't the ones we're discussing; the Dark Council circa TOR is comprised entirely of different people than the one in Revan.
Maybe I need to clarify that when I was talking about the Dark Council, I was overlapping the time periods intentionally.



No, my stance was that it's certainly possible that some of these adepts were more powerful than some of the Dark Council members, while you initially claimed that my stance didn't allow for that possibility.



But I give credit where credit is due. In this case it's martial prowess or relevant combat experience. Certainly you don't expect anything less when someone is trying to use the destruction of someone like Ood Bnar to attempt to prove someone else's power level? MOST of the examples were either nothing but obscure quotes, or force abilities that didn't involve combat. I'd say my response, while not being the best, was a pretty standard rebuttal.

Honestly, just don't worry about it. It's an issue tangential to something that isn't the focus of this discussion and not worth getting mixed up about.


I'm trying to go back to Dromund Kaas and play some of that stuff over so I can be quite specific to answer your question. I'll probably need some help from Janus who's playing as an Inquisitor on or about the Dromund Kaas level.




Sure, but my argument is based primarily on combat prowess, which despite what you might think about their political maneuverings, is what the Dark Council excels at.


Well then, I will refine my position to use the Dark Council whom we do have information on.



I will, with the help of Janus.



You didn't have to make the unsupported bolded claim then if you're just admitting that you haven't followed my posts closely.

You shouldn't have been, but if you'd rather shift the discussion to the later time period I don't have anything to say about it. You've said you and Janus can compile information about them down the line, and that's fine; I'm not making claims about those guys one way or another.


Good.


I never claimed anything of the sort. You need to read more carefully and keep a bead on context, DS.


The question was about what other Force-users had replicated - or, in keeping with my standards and to make it easier for you, approximated - the obliteration of a stormtrooper squad with the "flick of a finger." Fourth time now.


Are you referring to the TOR Council now? Because what I think about the Council in Revan has basis in the text, DS, and I've cited it appropriately. If you're not interested in rebutting that with material from the same text and would rather focus on the TOR Sith, then do it, but delineate appropriately and don't make clams about one based on yet-to-be-seen evidence that only says anything about the other.


That's fine, but then it's a different argument, and one that I've never tackled because for a plethora of reasons I can't judge that Council the same way as the older one.


But I haven't admitted anything like that. What I said was that you have a history of doing something and that, given that I haven't really been here as of late, the most recent historical example of such behavior I can recall lies buried under several dozen pages of mod activity. I will find it when I have the time, which will be very soon.

Now, for what's left of this topic you need to address what I'm saying and not the most convenient strawman, understood? Let's not run this in circles.

Originally posted by Eminence
You shouldn't have been, but if you'd rather shift the discussion to the later time period I don't have anything to say about it. You've said you and Janus can compile information about them down the line, and that's fine; I'm not making claims about those guys one way or another.
Then I should have made that position known from the very beginning.




I have. If you recall, this is what I said:


To which you responded with:


As if to say "no, that isn't your stance. So if that wasn't my stance, then the only other stance I could possibly have involves the adepts having no chance against the members of the dark council.



I've already addressed this twice saying I need to go back to dromund kaas so I can be specific with a comparable feat.



Again, I grouped the dark council from Revan and the games. I should have been more clear and I intend to be as I finish playing my character. The feats I have seen were ridiculous but I'll need the exact feat on the exact planet to be specific.






notsreifsrs about strawman


Where is this strawman?

No DS, it means that you have made it explicitly clear that you don't think there is much merit to the idea that more than two of the Imperial-era adepts Lightsnake listed could be compared to members of the Dark Council, and that's after prodding from me. You're trying to retroactively doctor your case with a degree of flexibility that was not expressed before I got involved. Literally nowhere have I remotely mischaracterized facets of your stance as they were was expressed.


Unless this yields "MANY" specific and comparable feats, DS, you will not have adequately supplanted your earlier assertion, and unless these feats are performed by individuals of relatively minor ability you won't have actually made any progress on the original point.





That I haven't followed your posts closely over the past few months - largely because I have scarcely been here over the past few months - does not mean that I have not followed your posts closely enough during periods of activity prior to the past few months to have seen adequate evidence of your tendency to make unfounded and misleading charges.

Once more:


Capiche?


... I don't get it?

But there are examples in the first few pages of this thread - all directed at Lightsnake, of course - of you making false claims




or blatantly strawmanning yourself



so if you don't mind more recent examples being cited neither do I.

But it seems we've already completely dropped the topic in favor of examining polemical flaws, which rarely goes anywhere productive but a discussion of what you're doing with your life and how when you're here you only really argue stances that you think are weak to begin with, so...

about Assassin's Creed.

I will get back to you when I finish playing my character storyline. But while I'm here I might as well address this:







If you somehow see a difference between what I said and what he said, or that I somehow misrepresented his position, then either you're experimenting too much in college or we're on different wavelengths as far as reading comprehension is concerned.

The interesting thing is you're trying to focus on my alleged strawmans while completely ignoring Lightsnake's actual strawmans.

And I already have a pirated copy of Revelations on PC. About to start playing it. And yes it's going to be godly.

They're not mutually exclusive, you know, but option B is and always has been painfully true.

But the straw man is such because LS was using that logic to mock you. Yes, he does attach greatly misattributed significance to Lyn's age, but he only ever makes a direct comparison to the Sith Emperor in that instance; he's not trying to milk it for more than a dig at you and he clearly doesn't actually believe that Lyn is greater than the Sith Emperor because she's older.


Why are those relevant to me? You've pointed them out, right?


skyrim

This was a strange argument.

The politeness on his end?

***** knows his place.

Originally posted by Eminence
They're not mutually exclusive, you know, but option B is and always has been painfully true.

But the straw man is such because LS was using that logic to mock you. Yes, he does attach greatly misattributed significance to Lyn's age, but he only ever makes a direct comparison to the Sith Emperor in that instance; he's not trying to milk it for more than a dig at you and he clearly doesn't actually believe that Lyn is greater than the Sith Emperor because she's older.

That's a strawman? By claiming LS was being facetious and as a result, THATS not a strawman but somehow my statement is? You have got to be kidding me faunus. I want what you're smoking. Btw, he sounded dead serious.

You have GOT to do better than that. At least make sense when you're defending someone, not illogical excuses.

Btw, the fact that you don't find a distinction between actually being immortal and living for 1,00 years, and happening to be in some kind of stasis for 25,000 years, concerns me.

No, no, Faunus has the exact right of it. Of course, your underestimating Lyn, who was one of the most powerful Dark Jedi of her time speaks for itself

Easy to say that you were being facetious after the fact, when nothing resembled a facetious remark. I'm not sure how being alive for 25,000 years, or rather in stasis, or being one of the most powerful dark jedi of her time, has anything to do with anything else. That time period is even more unknown than anything else and she could have either been a force titanic, an average force user, or somewhere in between.

Who says I don't? I already acknowledged that he's erred with some of the routes he's walked that issue through. Stop deflecting.


You'll have to point out the logical discrepancy. You misconstrued his words, and blatantly so. There are plenty of cases in which he used her age as a factor of poor arguments, but that wasn't one of them, and I honestly doubt that anyone but you is actually having any trouble detecting the facetiousness. I suspect that this would be where your limited comprehension leaves us unable to progress any further. The one time I can recall you acknowledging a glaring comprehension error, which was back on PE in '09 or something, it took two or three pages and the collective efforts of Slash, S66, Nemesis, and myself, and I had to use not just boldface red, but boldface blue. Never again.

Originally posted by Eminence
Who says I don't? I already acknowledged that he's erred with some of the routes he's walked that issue through. Stop deflecting.
There isn't a deflection.



I find the bolded part hilarious because you're the only one to point it out as facetiousness. I'm suspecting that you're not sober right now so I'll try and spell it out for you. Regardless of whether he was being facetious or not, there was no discrepancy between my text and his text. Therefore it's not a strawman. And it's "never again" because this time, you've lost your mind. Here, I'll help you out.



Claiming that the other part was being facetious is about the only excuse you can make in this regard, and a horrible one at that. Why don't you just admit you (as usual) misused the term and needed to think quickly. I'll say this again so the smoke from that pipe leaves your brain. There is no discrepancy between our text and therefore there is no strawman.

http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/4762/se7enn.jpg

Could you guys talk about something else? Your bitching is getting old.

Nobody is butthurt. I find this lack of intelligence amusing, for one as smart as Faunus.

haermm


I'm one of the two other people to have addressed it, the other being the original poster and in agreement with my interpretation of very basic sarcasm.


Wish I could say the same for you, kiddo.


I actually lol'd.




haermm


haermm

Prove it.

Originally posted by Eminence
I'm one of the two other people to have addressed it, the other being the original poster and in agreement with my interpretation of very basic sarcasm.
Yes, after the fact.


Oh, just now? I've been loling ever since you had to come up with an excuse.



There's no assumption when the text is spelled out right in front of me. The only assumption that can possibly be made is that he could be sarcastic (no proof of that). Swing and a miss. :lol"


I just have.

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j361/JanusMarius/ragnossolos.jpg

Originally posted by Lucius
He has no need of cupcakes or rituals. His center of power, with all of its dark side empowered guards, security systems, and home turf advantage?

Deathtrap. i call b.s. Everyone has a need of cupcakes. Also sidious wins.

Originally posted by Raptor22
i call b.s. Everyone has a need of cupcakes. Also sidious wins.

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j361/JanusMarius/ragnossolos.jpg

Quit it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Quit it.

Haters gonna hate.

Stop spamming that picture.

>:C

You're just mad because it's true.

ROTS is more than enough to destroy Vitiate

Based on what?

Bias.

Don't say that word, Gideon will be on you like a fat kid on donuts.

I have it on good authority that the Canadian often fantasizes about Gideon being on him. More than likely, Mizukage_Yoda simply hates Revan.

Gideon's not biased. He's just enthusiastic and full of spunk.

Gideon always seemed biased to me, IMHO. Hopelessly so, in fact. Remember when he'd criticize Revan? Signs of intense hatred, I reckon. Thank God this place had the likes of Janus and tdtd around to keep us in the proper perspective.

Oh hai the tdtd references are back! I missed those unsupported assertions for years.

Unsupported assertions? No, tdtd was in fact a real and active poster here. Even now I find his insights and arguments most persuasive. Too bad he was banned.

Originally posted by RevanSpoilers
Unsupported assertions? No, tdtd was in fact a real and active poster here. Even now I find his insights and arguments most persuasive. Too bad he was banned. That's... Sad..

That he was banned? Yes, it was. A tragedy of sorts. To know that we'll never again hear from him or know his latest insights in the realm of Star Wars? That he no longer has a presence here? I mean, doesn't that bother you?

Originally posted by Kotor3
All out. Vitiate wins, hands down. He Nathema and destroyed Revan and Malak. Granted, he surprised him, but that's still a consideralbe acomplishment.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sidious.


Remember, the Sith Emporer defeated Revan(and Malak) . He'd destroy Sidious.

Oh great another Bioware fanboy...

Oh great another PT era fanboy.