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All Out

Sidious

You can't go upsetting the Sidious fans of SWVF. Clearly, he wins because he is a G-canon character who becomes very powerful well after his RotS appearance. Nevermind that Revan can absorb and redirect Sith lightning well beyond what Yoda can do.

U mad, bro?

No, just drawing you out of the woodwork with ease, as usual.

SM
No, just drawing you out of the woodwork with ease, as usual.

Not all of us can demonstrate the restraint you display when a thread is made about Ragnos, Revan, or Exar Kun.

You forgot Dooku and Obi-Wan, as I'm clearly a fan of those guys too.

Well your affection for the Count is certainly not in doubt.

I'm gonna side with Revan here.

V fubhyq ernyyl ernq gung obbx fbzrgvzr, uhu?

Z.
I'm gonna side with Revan here.

It may please you to know that it is highly likely that the Jew is giving the Moose a reach around at the sexually titillating nature of your words.

It's not very good. Allot that spare time to the far more promising Darth Plagueis come January.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
You can't go upsetting the Sidious fans of SWVF. Clearly, he wins because he is a G-canon character who becomes very powerful well after his RotS appearance. Nevermind that Revan can absorb and redirect Sith lightning well beyond what Yoda can do.

Are you really comparing Nyriss's power in the force to Yoda or Palpatine?

Really?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Are you really comparing Nyriss's power in the force to Yoda or Palpatine?

Really?

lol

No, I'm pointing out that this particular feat on behalf of Revan is incredibly more profound than even Yoda's multiple uses of the same power of redirection. Whether or not Nyriss is approaching Yoda and Sidious' level of power at any reference point is irrelevant; what is relevant is that a core part of Sidious' attack is not only easily blockable, but able to be used as a weapon against him.

It'd help to not confuse RotS Sidious with DE Sidious, who is according to the Dark Empire Sourcebook and common sense, much stronger. Try arguing this in context of the movie feats, not the sweeping DE generalizations that normally make up your arguments.

So before you go off, let's clarify my stance here:

It is entirely likely that Force Lightning, should it be used, will be entirely useless against Revan because:

1. He's a former Sith Lord with plenty of knowledge of how to use it himself and block it.

2. He's demonstrated that he can redirect a charged up version from Nyriss, which was so powerful that it reduced the Sith lady to ash even as she was attempting to defend against it.

3. Revan is an epic duelist, and while substantiating him conclusively higher than Sidious is impossible (they did not fight the exact same people), we can reasonably conclude that he is a master duelist known to have battle precognition and therefore the battle could at worst go either way.

Let's conclude:

1. Force power contest is negligible. If Revan busts out Dark Side abilities, there's every reason to believe he could win through those alone. His showings at this point are well above movie-RotS Sidious'. (Not DE Sidious, I'll grant you that).

2. Force Lightning will not yield a victory for Sidious. If anything, it could presumably end up in his death or mortally wound him.

3. The saber game is at worst anyone's game, at best most likely in Revan's favor. He has a wealth more war-time experience and has killed many powerful Jedi and Sith with his blade.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
lol

No, I'm pointing out that this particular feat on behalf of Revan is incredibly more profound than even Yoda's multiple uses of the same power of redirection. Whether or not Nyriss is approaching Yoda and Sidious' level of power at any reference point is irrelevant; what is relevant is that a core part of Sidious' attack is not only easily blockable, but able to be used as a weapon against him.

Okay.
So, the crux of your argument is Revan did this to a vastly, vastly weaker opponent. It's not like Yoda took on Nyriss and failed in this. We know for a stated fact that Yoda is stronger than Revan, and quite possibly by a considerable margin.

you define Palpatine's attack as 'easily' blockable when this is described as an insanely difficult and rather incredible feat. Yoda did not 'easily' handle it, either. You can see them visibly struggling.

The argument stands thus: While Revan's feat did more damage to Nyriss (obliteration) than Yoda did to Palpatine or what Yoda received? True. But you have to add that Nyriss is so far below the leagues of the real titans of the Force that she scarce deserves to be mentioned in the same sentence



And your point is? Palpatine's power, even from a young age, is titanic. If you genuinely want to make the argument that Nyriss is stronger than more or less any Dark Lord we've seen in action, let alone someone like Dooku or Palpatine, that onus is on you.



Yes, we know he can probably attempt to block it, and knows how



Revan absorbed the energy and unleashed his own barrage to be exact. Now, as I recall, we have seen Yoda absorb the energy of a force user considerably stronger than Nyriss (Dooku).
He doesn't unleashed force lightning back at his opponents as he's...well...Yoda.

And once again, we have seen Yoda and Palpatine struggle in at least a state of equilibrium, with the eventual advantage to Yoda.
The notion that Revan's feat means he can handle the blasts of someone vastly stronger than Nyriss is a baseless one. Lord Farfalla was experienced in fighting Sith and has a barrier to block force lightning. Bane's lightning shredded through his force defenses like nothing.

Luke Skywalker was capable of deflecting Force Lightning with his hands from a Nightsister noted as experienced and talented with force lightning. He did, as I recall, considerably poorer when facing blasts from Palpatine at future dates. I can't quite recall if Joruus C'Baoth used force lightning on him exactly, but I keep recalling that happening.

And furthermore, Revan has been seen to be defeated by lightning from a Sith Lord who could quite well be weaker than Palpatine.


Yes, Revan is a master duelist. Thing is, so is Palpatine. and Palpatine has been seen to have made fools of other master duelists (including three swordsmen considered some of the finest in the Jedi Order's history). And Darth Maul as well in Maul's backstory.

I don't think anybody is arguing that Revan would be steamrolled in combat, though. But he'd lose.



Silliness. Revan is shown to be, on his own, helpless against the Emperor's force lightning. If Revan tries to reflect Palpatine's lightning, absolutely nothing prevents Palpatine from blocking it or reflecting or absorbing it himself (What, Dooku can do this, but Palp can't?). Not only that, but Palpatine's hardly limited to Force Lightning (even if it is his favorite).

Revan's showings are, by and large, limited to defeating people far weaker than Palpatine. He is shown to go down from a blast of the Emperor's lightning, for a start.




Name 'em. Malak and Bandon are the obvious ones. He's defeated Mandalore and Yusanis. However, Palpatine defeated Saesee, Agen and Kit, as well as Maul. He's also held his own with Yoda and was good enough to challenge him and Mace Windu.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Revan's showings are, by and large, limited to defeating people far weaker than Palpatine. He is shown to go down from a blast of the Emperor's lightning, for a start.

Name 'em. Malak and Bandon are the obvious ones. He's defeated Mandalore and Yusanis. However, Palpatine defeated Saesee, Agen and Kit, as well as Maul. He's also held his own with Yoda and was good enough to challenge him and Mace Windu.
Star Forge Empowered Malak, who was stated to be nearly unstoppable.

Lord Nyriss who proved to be an overwhelming opponent for Jedi Exile. And Jedi Exile has history with powerful Sith Lords. She was instrumental in stopping the Sith Triumviate, which by all means, was one of the most dangerous gang of Sith Lords ever assembled.

None of these were far weaker then even OT incarnation of Sidious.

No need to underestimate, Revan's accomplishments.

And Revan' former adversaries used dangerous powers like Force Drain in combat. Revan even had an answer to these abilities.

One of my responses got overshadowed due to a typing error. So here is repeat:

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Revan absorbed the energy and unleashed his own barrage to be exact. Now, as I recall, we have seen Yoda absorb the energy of a force user considerably stronger than Nyriss (Dooku).
He doesn't unleashed force lightning back at his opponents as he's...well...Yoda.
How have you determined that Force Lightning abilities of Count Dooku are even remotely close to that of Nyriss?

His Force Lightning did not kill Anakin who was very young during Battle of Geonosis. His Force Lightning did not kill Oppress who had yet to properly tap in to his potential and Oppress sustained several Force Lightning barrages from Count Dooku.

The best I have seen from Dooku was incapacitating Sora Bulq with his Force Lightning, who isn't that big of a deal.

Nyriss' signature Force Lightning was powerful enough to incinerate powerful Jedi and Sith with relative ease. It extended in to 12 lethal bolts. And when Revan directed that power back at her; she herself could not tolerate it and got destroyed.

Force Lightning has never been a strong aspect of Count Dooku. He has much more impressive showings with his telekinetic abilities.

Lol@comparing the emperor's force storm to Sidious' lightning.

This is not effortless. You would do well to become more acquainted with the relevant source material or at least pretend to try to be a little less dishonest.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
How have you determined that Force Lightning abilities of Count Dooku are even remotely close to that of Nyriss?

His Force Lightning did not kill Anakin who was very young during Battle of Geonosis. His Force Lightning did not kill Oppress who had yet to properly tap in to his potential and Oppress sustained several Force Lightning barrages from Count Dooku.

The best I have seen from Dooku was incapacitating Sora Bulq with his Force Lightning, who isn't that big of a deal.

Dooku didn't want to kill Anakin. He and Sidious had plans for him, as revealed in the ROTS novel. Nor did he want to kill Opress.

Did Revan display any great ability with a lightsaber in the book?

Originally posted by RevanSpoilers
This is not effortless. You would do well to become more acquainted with the relevant source material or at least pretend to try to be a little less dishonest.
Let me give you the whole picture:

He make a joke out of Palpatine.

1. He prevented Kota from getting tooled by Palpatine. And paved way for his escape.
2. He blocked Palpatine' Force Lightning with his bare hands.
3. He lowered his guard to kill the guards that were pursuing Kota while enduring Palpatine' Force Lightning at the same time.
4. He then strode towards Palpatine and gave him a taste of his own medicine.

The supposed 'image of invincibility' of Palpatine got shattered right there.

He was strong enough to handle that pain. No big deal.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dooku didn't want to kill Anakin. He and Sidious had plans for him, as revealed in the ROTS novel. Nor did he want to kill Opress.
He did not wanted to kill Yoda too, right?

You can make an excuse in case of Anakin. But not in case of other characters.

Nephthys
Did Revan display any great ability with a lightsaber in the book?

Not really. But we'll see if Revan's three resident acolytes can conjure up a properly cited and well sourced argument {you know, with text and page numbers} as to the nature of his abilities as a dueler.

The only mention of him with a saber was during his fight against the Mandalorians. But hey, as far as I know, he's never lost a duel, force or otherwise, until he met the emperor.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

1. He prevented Kota from getting tooled by Palpatine. And paved way for his escape.
2. He blocked Palpatine' Force Lightning with his bare hands.
3. He lowered his guard to kill the guards that were pursuing Kota while enduring Palpatine' Force Lightning at the same time.
4. He then strode towards Palpatine and gave him a taste of his own medicine.
5. Then Palpy killed him.

Fixed.

SWL
Let me give you the whole picture:

No, allow me.

This is what you initially claimed:



I quoted the relevant source material and conclusively proved you wrong.

This is the part where you concede the point and apologize for your dishonest, hopelessly biased tactics. Or, failing that, where all of us put you on ignore because we don't associate with dishonest trolls.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He did not wanted to kill Yoda too, right?

You can make an excuse in case of Anakin. But not in case of other characters.

No, I'm pretty sure he wanted to kill Yoda. Except for that bit in Dark Rendevous where he tries to turn Yoda to the darkside and shits his pants when it looks like he's actually considering it.


Originally posted by RevanSpoilers
Not really. But we'll see if Revan's three resident acolytes can conjure up a properly cited and well sourced argument {you know, with text and page numbers} as to the nature of his abilities as a dueler.

Revan had a lightsaber in his hand in this picture:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_iRFa-dX-qzU/TFxMIw6-0OI/AAAAAAAADCw/6xMggbYo6AI/s1600/timeline009_535x300.jpg

Therefore we can glean that he focused on lightsabers, so his lightsaber skill MUST be even greater than his Forceitude. Also we can clearly see that he outdualed a guy armed with a rifle, so clearly he is really, really good.

Originally posted by RevanSpoilers
Not really. But we'll see if Revan's three resident acolytes can conjure up a properly cited and well sourced argument {you know, with text and page numbers} as to the nature of his abilities as a dueler.
1. Revan brought down a Basilisk War Droid and his rider with just a few strikes of his Lightsaber.

2. Revan comfortably deflected blaster fire from highly skilled Mandalorians.

3. Revan tooled a Sith Emperor's empowered Imperial Guard with his dueling abilities. The Sith Emperor's Imperial Guards were formidable opponents for Jedi, able to draw on the power of the dark side of the Sith Emperor, and were skilled in combat.

4. Revan could predict dueling actions of his opponents in advance (Battle Precognition). He also performed arcobatics while dueling his opponents.

Revan was no pushover. He attempted to take out Lord Vitiate with his lightsaber but did not got the chance.

Beating Mandore is impressive. Even Ulic, who was a saber prodigy, struggled with the Mandalore of his day.

Mandalore brought a gun to a lightsaber fight. Beating him really isn't that impressive.

That logic only makes sense when you intentionally try to downplay a feat to further your argument.

Nephthys
Mandalore brought a gun to a lightsaber fight. Beating him really isn't that impressive.

I'm not sure if you got the memo, but beating a non-Force sensitive warrior is absolutely impressive if it's on Revan's curriculum vitae. For other characters, wasting lifelong Jedi is paltry in comparison.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
Fixed.
Wrong. Galen sacrificed himself actually. He gave himself to the Force.

Originally posted by RevanSpoilers
I'm not sure if you got the memo, but beating a non-Force sensitive warrior is absolutely impressive if it's on Revan's curriculum vitae. For other characters, wasting lifelong Jedi is paltry in comparison.
The same warrior who put Malak on his @ss with a single strike. Mandalore The Ultimate had a sword as well.

Using gideon's logic, the saber prodigy Ulic must have sucked because he struggled against a non force user.

Originally posted by RevanSpoilers
No, allow me.

This is what you initially claimed:



I quoted the relevant source material and conclusively proved you wrong.

This is the part where you concede the point and apologize for your dishonest, hopelessly biased tactics. Or, failing that, where all of us put you on ignore because we don't associate with dishonest trolls.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Using gideon's logic, the saber prodigy Ulic must have sucked because he struggled against a non force user.

Um, Mandalore had a freaking Basalisk War droid in his fight against Ulic, he started at range and had the high ground, and Ulic still kicked his ass pretty damn easily.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD



His Force Lightning did not kill Anakin who was very young during Battle of Geonosis. His Force Lightning did not kill Oppress who had yet to properly tap in to his potential and Oppress sustained several Force Lightning barrages from Count Dooku.

The best I have seen from Dooku was incapacitating Sora Bulq with his Force Lightning, who isn't that big of a deal.

Force Lightning has never been a strong aspect of Count Dooku. He has much more impressive showings with his telekinetic abilities.

Bull. He took out 3 armed Nightsisters with his FL. One of them was Ventress.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nor did he want to kill Opress.

More Bull.

Not sure where you got the "easily" part but making unsupported assumptions definitely helps your argument. He put Ulic on his ass.

DS
Using gideon's logic, the saber prodigy Ulic must have sucked because he struggled against a non force user.

No, my logic dictates that non-Force sensitives are almost always at a tremendous disadvantage when it comes to battling Force users and neither you nor SWL have made even the tiniest effort to {with properly cited and sourced arguments} explain why I should be impressed by Revan's defeat of Mandalore other than by casually mentioning Ulic's struggle with a different Mandalore.

I don't share your love for Revan and you need to accept that as well as the fact that if you expect anyone here beyond Janus and SWL to believe you, you need to start posting properly cited and sourced arguments.

Concede or get to work.

Originally posted by RevanSpoilers
I'm not sure if you got the memo, but beating a non-Force sensitive warrior is absolutely impressive if it's on Revan's curriculum vitae. For other characters, wasting lifelong Jedi is paltry in comparison.
And yet he strode towards Palpatine and engulfed him with it.

Here is Palpatine's experience:

With shaking fingers, he took the old man's bony shoulders in his hands and gripped them tight. The Sith lightning spread to engulf the two of them, fueled by both their desperations. The Emperor tipped back his head and howled in lascivious pain.

Prior to this, Galen even performed a Force attack while lowering his guard down while tolerating the Force Lightning of Palpatine.

If Galen was really so much struggling? How did he pulled all of these moves? Tell me?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Not sure where you got the "easily" part but making unsupported assumptions definitely helps your argument. He put Ulic on his ass.

Leia put Palpatine on his ass at one point. Does that mean he'd struggle to defeat her?

Originally posted by RevanSpoilers
No, my logic dictates that non-Force sensitives are almost always at a tremendous disadvantage when it comes to battling Force users and neither you nor SWL have made even the tiniest effort to {with properly cited and sourced arguments} explain why I should be impressed by Revan's defeat of Mandalore other than by casually mentioning Ulic's struggle with a different Mandalore.

I don't share your love for Revan and you need to accept that as well as the fact that if you expect anyone here beyond Janus and SWL to believe you, you need to start posting properly cited and sourced arguments.

Concede or get to work.
Really? Tell that to Jango Fett and Bobba Fett.

SWL, concede that the effort was not effortless on Marek's part and prove you operate with a bare modicum of honesty or you're going to have to endure here the same phenomenon you endured in all of your schooling and home life: No one will be speaking to you.

Originally posted by RevanSpoilers
SWL, concede that the effort was not effortless on Marek's part and prove you operate with a bare modicum of honesty or you're going to have to endure here the same phenomenon you endured in all of your schooling and home life: No one will be speaking to you.
Watch the video of Galen blocking the Force Lightning of Palpatine with his bare hands. He wasn't screaming.

Also, I am sensing helplessness in you since your arguments are getting busted.

Originally posted by RevanSpoilers
No, my logic dictates that non-Force sensitives are almost always at a tremendous disadvantage when it comes to battling Force users and neither you nor SWL have made even the tiniest effort to {with properly cited and sourced arguments} explain why I should be impressed by Revan's defeat of Mandalore other than by casually mentioning Ulic's struggle with a different Mandalore.

I don't share your love for Revan and you need to accept that as well as the fact that if you expect anyone here beyond Janus and SWL to believe you, you need to start posting properly cited and sourced arguments.

Concede or get to work. You don't expect anyone other than neph or LS to believe you so looks like you have your work cut out. The fact that you have to point out that you don't share my love for a particular character is enough for anyone to question your motives in this debate. The other fact is that I never argued Revan would win a saber battle and your reactive attitude has come full circle. Good show though.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Leia put Palpatine on his ass at one point. Does that mean he'd struggle to defeat her? Not sure you're familiar with distinctions.

DS
You don't expect anyone other than neph or LS to believe you so looks like you have your work cut out. The fact that you have to point out that you don't share my love for a particular character is enough for anyone to question your motives in this debate. The other fact is that I never argued Revan would win a saber battle and your reactive attitude has come full circle. Good show though.

My motives are entirely irrelevant; Janus routinely posts in threads with the intent to belittle or undermine Sidious, but it doesn't matter as long as his arguments are valid.

I never claimed you argued that Revan would win the saber fight. But you did claim that his defeat of Mandalore is impressive without properly explaining why. That is a claim you need to either support or concede.

So we collectively ridicule Johun Othone for failing to defeat a non-force sensitive warrior despite how immensely skilled the guy was but suddenly when Revan does it its an impressive feat?

Am I missing something? Bias maybe.

The fact that Mandalore, regardless of time period, is more than a match for a Jedi. But the point is that while Revans skill with a saber is largely unknown, he's undefeated as far as we know.

DS
The fact that Mandalore, regardless of time period, is more than a match for a Jedi.

According to what source?



Those are significant qualifiers.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
The fact that Mandalore, regardless of time period, is more than a match for a Jedi. But the point is that while Revans skill with a saber is largely unknown, he's undefeated as far as we know. Mandalore vs. Ulic as well as Revans fight which wasn't a walk in the park.

DS
Mandalore vs. Ulic

According to Neph, it was hardly a conventional duel and while an impressive feat of combat, not necessarily an impressive display of lightsaber dueling. It's the contextual and environmental difference, I think.

Consider that Jango Fett was able to go toe-to-toe with Obi-Wan Kenobi given certain contextual concessions: Obi-Wan was ordered to bring him in alive and Fett was assisted considerably by Boba, who was operating the Slave I's armaments to aid his father. Even then, Kenobi consistently dominated Fett despite his considerable experience and skill in combat.

When Fett was on relatively even terrain with Mace Windu, who wasn't operating under such scruples, Fett was killed rather quickly and in short order.

The latter is more of a strict duel than the former and it made all the difference in the world for poor Fett.



Yes, but we're not given exact details as to why this wasn't an easy fight. It doesn't necessarily mean that Mandalore went literally toe-to-toe with Revan.

Originally posted by RevanSpoilers
When Fett was on relatively even terrain with Mace Windu, who wasn't operating under such scruples, Fett was killed rather quickly and in short order.
No. Prior to this, Jango Fett got trampled by a heavy animal and was in bad shape. Jango Fett's jetpacks were also not working. Mace simply took advantage.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Genius, he overpowered Malak with a single attack who by any means was no ordinary Jedi.


The same Malak who lost to an untrained Jarael?

Originally posted by Nephthys
The same Malak who lost to an untrained Jarael?
It was just a sparring contest. Malak was not trying to kill her. He actually had soft corner for her.

Also, Jarael had won in such sparring matches against other Jedi too. She was a skilled fighter.

And that was start of Malak. He became far more powerful afterwards and reached to a point of being nearly unstoppable.

Come up with better excuses next time.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It was just a sparring contest. Malak was not trying to kill her. He actually had soft corner for her.

Also, Jarael had won in such sparring matches against other Jedi too. She was a skilled fighter.

And that was start of Malak. He became far more powerful afterwards and reached to a point of being nearly unstoppable.

Come up with better excuses next time.

Yes it was the start of Malaks career. Which is also when Mandalore bested him, correct? That he would go on to be empowered by the Star Forge into becoming almost unstoppable is irrelevent because at the time he was not a particularly impressive combatant.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes it was the start of Malaks career. Which is also when Mandalore bested him, correct? That he would go on to be empowered by the Star Forge into becoming almost unstoppable is irrelevent because at the time he was not a particularly impressive combatant.
Really?

You forgot that Malak led a Sith Empire. If he wasn't good enough for the task, he would have been taken down.

Also, you are forgetting that Malak handled the trio of Revan, Bastilla, and Carth simultaneously on Leviathan and still won.

Later on, he broke Bastilla Shan and forced her to embrace the dark side.

On Star Forge, Malak again tooled two Jedi simultaneously who had approached his sector.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Really?

You forgot that Malak led a Sith Empire. If he wasn't good enough for the task, he would have been taken down.

Also, you are forgetting that Malak handled the trio of Revan, Bastilla, and Carth simultaneously on Leviathan and still won.

Later on, he broke Bastilla Shan and forced her to embrace the dark side.

On Star Forge, Malak again tooled two Jedi simultaneously who had approached his sector.

Did he do any of that at the time he fought Mandalore?

No. That Malak would go on to be a powerful Sith Lord is irrelevent. At the time, he was not.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Did he do any of that at the time he fought Mandalore?

No. That Malak would go on to be a powerful Sith Lord is irrelevent. At the time, he was not.
I understand. Yes, he had a long way to go.

But still both Jararel and Mandalore were very skilled combatants. They were among the best of their time.

And Malak was interested in Jararel. When boys are after girls, they try to impress them in many ways possible.

Also, Malak had ultimately reached this level of power before he was cut down:

You might have min-maxed your character to smack Darth Malak down in seconds without breaking a sweat, but in a book that battle would have been a brutal, hard fought affair spread over multiple pages.

Comments from Drew Karpyshyn.

This is why Malak was offically stated as being nearly unstoppable on Star Forge on Star Wars website.

You can say that Malak' Force Draining abilities would have helped him since he had put several Jedi in stasis.

Also, check my PM.

Originally posted by Nephthys

Did I said anything wrong?

Karpyshyn can say what he wants. the problem is, he didn't put it in a book so it's still speculative.

And irrelevant, as Yoda is canonically more powerful than Revan himself according to the ROTS novelization.

We see in the KOTOR comics that Malak is just starting his career and is a capable knight. Nothing more. And to suggest Jarael is one of the best of the era is frankly unsubstantiated. She is a remarkably skilled fighter, but she isn't a match for trained Jedi Masters and knows this.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
How have you assumed this? Just because we have limited information on combat feats of Nyriss? Your point is utterly baseless.

We have limited info on her and tons of info, feats and statements on other characters. Yes, I declare her a weakling next to the big boys



Why, yes. Palpatine generating far more than '12' bolts of lightning with his hands



Revenge of the Sith novelization, canon proof Yoda is stronger than your favorite Jedi:

Finally, he saw the truth. This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known . . .


Actually, he doesn't have to. Corran Horn has done that hyimself. Also, learn your techniques:
It's called force absorb. Yoda does it all the time when fighting sith, but lightning isn't the only thing that can be absorbed. A force sensitive talented enough can absorb saber energy and use that energy against their enemy.

Satele absorbed the energy from Malgus's saber, like Nejaa Halcyon did against Nikkos Tyris.

Whereas Yoda absorbed the energy from force lightning. from Count Dooku



Dooku tooled Sora Bulq and Master Tholme together. He tooled Quinlan Vos. He tooled anakin and Obi-wan together. He tooled General Grievous. He-

Oh, one gets the point.
Dooku is capable of producing a lightning storm that turned a room full of guards into smoking corpses. Yeah, one really gets the point



His limitation was his age and arrogance. Dooku was one of the most powerful Jedi alive and that's before he got even stronger in the Dark Side. He was quite extraordinary.


Oh, man, are you really comparing Scourge's dueling prowess to Count Dooku?
Jedi vs. Sith names him as one of the most gifted duelists in history
Labyrinth of Evil confirms his absolute mastery of Form II, though he aintains a full knowledge of others.
The Episode 2 novelization states that his mastery of Form II is unmartched

Wow, a group of unnamed nobodies were skittish around Scourge



Dooku defeated Obi-wan, the greatest Soresu master who ever lived. He defeated Sora Bulq, a master of Vaapad (IE: Juyo taken to a greater level), and was far better than qui-Gon, an Ataru master.



Congratulations, Scourge can do what Dark Siders do. Guess what? Your opponent's hate, anger, fear, etc? If you're a Sith Lord, drinking in that is expected of you.



Wow. Dooku effortlessly crushed people like Grievous, Asajj Ventress and Sora and Tholme.

People with real feats




Prove it. You whine incessantly how good Nyriss (A mid-tier Sith by any account) is, but Palpatine is stronger than her. And her master.
Yoda failed to effortlessly block what he had. And Dooku's displayed far stronger force powers and saber prowess.




Dooku is a much more powerful Sith Lord and proved it by defeating tons of people on multiple occasions



It was strong enough to overwhelm Vader
And oh, look, how your narrative shifts. Luke blocked a storm of lightning from a Nightsister.


You lie.

"The pain was incredible, searing every nerve back to its individual cells,
skewering each of them on white-hot needles. He had never before felt
anything like this. He wanted to recoil from the source, to curl into a ball
and let unconsciousness take the pain away, but somehow he stayed
standing, seeing the world through a crackling blue light, and even took a
step toward the Emperor"





Hardly. Vitiate is weaker than Palpatine. And probably Plagueis, too, if the novel's synopsis is any indication.



Oh, so she met people who lived after her time period?



New Essential Chronology: "Yoda failed to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history."

Uh oh.



Ah, so Revan could hold his own when Vitiate wasn't trying very hard.




Revan is weaker than Yoda, quite honestly and I've proven that with a direct canon statement

Yoda's handled star fighters and cruisers. And?



Palpatine went all out on Yoda.

A stronger Sith against a stronger Jedi.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Star Forge Empowered Malak, who was stated to be nearly unstoppable.

Palpatine stated to be unstoppable and the strongest Sith Lord in history



The Exile seemed to be caught off guard. That and she presumably hit her hit, explaining her lack of skills in comparison to her actual canon abilities



I love how incessantly you lie and try to deceive. Now Nyriss is close in power to OT Sidious.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And Revan' former adversaries used dangerous powers like Force Drain in combat. Revan even had an answer to these abilities.

Great. Lots of Jedi of the PT had an answer to that one, given they could disconnect from the Force



He has produced far more and killed many more people with it. He has defeated powerful force users with it

He did not try to kill him


He was training Opress



Prove it. I guess Darth Nihl's lightning is much better as his killed Kol Skywalker (You know, when it actually connected, like any force lightning would.

Also, nice how you keep ignoring Palpatine incinerated 3 powerful darksiders



Wow. Dooku's filled an entire room full of guards



Yeah, except that was his own power as well



You're very stupid to actually believe this with his constant feats

Good god 4 pages? Another pissing match between LS and SWL. Lets see who has the las word.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
We have limited info on her and tons of info, feats and statements on other characters. Yes, I declare her a weakling next to the big boys
Tons of information is useful in knowing a character in great detail. However, we have seen characters in Stars Wars who have more impressive showings with limited screen time in comparison to those who have lot more. Your declaration means nothing.

Tooling two powerful opponents cannot be work of a weakling. But you are too brainwashed by your PT fanaticism to understand this.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Why, yes. Palpatine generating far more than '12' bolts of lightning with his hands
You are probably confusing main bolts with small extensions of main bolts.

I see 7 main bolts in this image.

Now show me evidence of Master Yoda blocking so many bolts simultaneously.

For now, see this:

http://i39.tinypic.com/1z3ouv5.png

OWNED.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Revenge of the Sith novelization, canon proof Yoda is stronger than your favorite Jedi:

Finally, he saw the truth. This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known . . .
Yes, read this one before.

My point is that it is not established that Master Yoda is exceptional in all aspects of the Force. There are some feats that he never performed.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Actually, he doesn't have to. Corran Horn has done that hyimself. Also, learn your techniques:
It's called force absorb. Yoda does it all the time when fighting sith, but lightning isn't the only thing that can be absorbed. A force sensitive talented enough can absorb saber energy and use that energy against their enemy.
I know the nature of Satele' feat. Also, just because Corran Horn performed such a feat, it does not means that Master Yoda also could.

It is like saying that Galen moved an Imperial Destroyer with the Force. Therefore, Master Yoda could also do the same. You have no point.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Satele absorbed the energy from Malgus's saber, like Nejaa Halcyon did against Nikkos Tyris.
Yes. Show me similar feat from Master Yoda.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Whereas Yoda absorbed the energy from force lightning. from Count Dooku
Yes. However, this is still a different feat. It is not necessary that Master Yoda' mastery in Force Absorb abilities was on the scale of blocking the Lightsaber with bare hands.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Dooku tooled Sora Bulq and Master Tholme together. He tooled Quinlan Vos. He tooled anakin and Obi-wan together. He tooled General Grievous. He-
I am not talking about combat victories of Count Dooku. I am discussing his mastery in Force Lightning. He has never reduced any powerful Jed to charred remains.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, one gets the point.
Dooku is capable of producing a lightning storm that turned a room full of guards into smoking corpses. Yeah, one really gets the point
Interesting. Show me the event.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
His limitation was his age and arrogance. Dooku was one of the most powerful Jedi alive and that's before he got even stronger in the Dark Side. He was quite extraordinary.
Heard things like these before. I am not concerned with how powerful he was. My discussion is limited to his mastery in Force Lightning.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, man, are you really comparing Scourge's dueling prowess to Count Dooku?
Jedi vs. Sith names him as one of the most gifted duelists in history
Labyrinth of Evil confirms his absolute mastery of Form II, though he aintains a full knowledge of others.
The Episode 2 novelization states that his mastery of Form II is unmartched

Wow, a group of unnamed nobodies were skittish around Scourge
Instead of ignoring the information provided to you, try to comprehend it. Count Dooku is not the greatest swordsman in the history.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Dooku defeated Obi-wan, the greatest Soresu master who ever lived.
With his Force powers.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
He defeated Sora Bulq, a master of Vaapad (IE: Juyo taken to a greater level), and was far better than qui-Gon, an Ataru master.
With his Force powers.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Congratulations, Scourge can do what Dark Siders do. Guess what? Your opponent's hate, anger, fear, etc? If you're a Sith Lord, drinking in that is expected of you.
Scourge can use the power of his opponents to feed his own power. See the difference?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Wow. Dooku effortlessly crushed people like Grievous, Asajj Ventress and Sora and Tholme.

People with real feats
Lord Scourge and Jedi Exile are also among the people with real feats. Jedi Exile alone has much better history then those PT bafoons.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Prove it. You whine incessantly how good Nyriss (A mid-tier Sith by any account) is, but Palpatine is stronger than her. And her master.
Yoda failed to effortlessly block what he had. And Dooku's displayed far stronger force powers and saber prowess.
Mid-Tier? Your mind is basking in PT worshipping. Clear your mind first before you spout such gibberish.

Lord Nyriss was the second most powerful opponent that Revan encountered in the True Sith Empire. She was not some mid-tier level boss.

Palpatine being more powerful as whole means nothing here. My argument is about mastery in Force Lightning. And Lord Nyriss was no joke in this regard. She could incinerate powerful Jedi with her signature Force Lightning.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Dooku is a much more powerful Sith Lord and proved it by defeating tons of people on multiple occasions
Your point is baseless. Lord Scourge and Jedi Exile have defeated tons of people on multiple occassions too.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It was strong enough to overwhelm Vader
And oh, look, how your narrative shifts. Luke blocked a storm of lightning from a Nightsister.
Oh wow! A puny Nighsister is now comparable to those who are one of the most powerful in the True Sith Empire and members of the Dark Council for decades.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
You lie.

"The pain was incredible, searing every nerve back to its individual cells,
skewering each of them on white-hot needles. He had never before felt
anything like this. He wanted to recoil from the source, to curl into a ball
and let unconsciousness take the pain away, but somehow he stayed
standing, seeing the world through a crackling blue light, and even took a
step toward the Emperor"
Galen blocked Palaptine' Force Lightning with bare hands and was not helpless in that situation like Luke Skywalker was in ROTJ. Use your brain.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Hardly. Vitiate is weaker than Palpatine. And probably Plagueis, too, if the novel's synopsis is any indication.
Lord Vitiate' abilities are no joke in comparison to those of any Sith Lord you can refer to in Star Wars. Your point is moot.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, so she met people who lived after her time period?
She met several Jedi Masters and notable characters including Malak, Darth Traya, Darth Sion, and Darth Nihilus.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
New Essential Chronology: "Yoda failed to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history."

Uh oh.
Palpatine as a whole.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Ah, so Revan could hold his own when Vitiate wasn't trying very hard.
He stood up to a Sith Lord who destroyed his entire Dark Council comprising of the most powerful Sith Lords in his Empire.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Revan is weaker than Yoda, quite honestly and I've proven that with a direct canon statement
Revan' command of the Force is unique and his abilities were no less then that of Yoda.

Master Yoda being more powerful does not means that he is also the best fighter and neither he can replicate all the feats of his predecessors. Such statements do not explain the whole story.

Here is an analogy: Mark Henry is physically very strong but he is a poor wrestler.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yoda's handled star fighters and cruisers. And?
Galen handled a freakin Imperial Star Destroyer.

Galen > Yoda, right?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Palpatine went all out on Yoda.

A stronger Sith against a stronger Jedi.
And Palpatine' showings are not comparable to that of Lord Vitiate by the time of ROTS. Try a better incarnation.

While I don't approve of your methods SWL, don't waste your time arguing with LS about Revan. The feats and characters all associated will undoubtedly be downplayed.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
While I don't approve of your methods SWL, don't waste your time arguing with LS about Revan. The feats and characters all associated will undoubtedly be downplayed.
I understand. I often let go, as I did with Neph in some threads. Because I don't have such free time.

As an example, I completed my debate with Neph in only one thread: Darth Malgus vs Count Dooku.

However, LS made some rediculous claims in this thread, and I felt the need to respond to them. However, he is probably beyond help.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes. However, this is still a different feat. It is not necessary that Master Yoda' mastery in Force Absorb abilities was on the scale of blocking the Lightsaber with bare hands.

Shaak Ti could block a lightsaber with her bare hands.


And Galen Marek could stop a lightsaber with his face.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Sure;

The air around her began to crackle and grow hot as she gathered herself for the killing blow. Scourge felt the energy building inside her, and he knew he would be powerless to stop it. Nyriss was too powerful; her command of the dark side was too strong.

“Gaze upon me and see your doom!” she declared. “I am Darth Nyriss, Lord of the Sith. I am the conqueror of Drezzi, the destroyer of Melldia, and a member of the Dark Council!”

Scourge braced himself for the end.

Just then, Revan emerged from the cell. He had pulled the hood of his Jedi robe up to cover his head, and he wore the red-and-gray mask, hiding his face.

A dozen bolts of lightning sprang from Nyriss’s hand, arcing across the room to incinerate her enemies.

Fixed.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Shaak Ti could block a lightsaber with her bare hands.
When and where?

Originally posted by Nephthys
And Galen Marek could stop a lightsaber with his face.


I bet that he could Force Push Palpatine with his d***.

Here is the actual detail:

On her last three words, she struck three blows that each partially found their mark. The first burned a sizzling line down the apprentice's left shoulder. The second scored diagonally across his chest. The third would have skewered his right eye had he not held her back at the last minute with a desperate telekinetic block that stopped her lightsaber barely a millimeter from his skin. He could feel his eyelashes and eyebrows burning. The right side of his sight was entirely blue.

She gasped and staggered backward. Her lightsaber and her gaze dropped. A full half meter of red blade emerged from her stomach, then the rest came free with a hiss.

He backed away, shocked by how close he had come to death and how lucky he had been to defeat her.

Source: TFU novel.

Myth busted.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
When and where?

The Clone Wars. Grievous vs the Jedi Masters.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD


I bet that he could Force Push Palpatine with his d***.

Here is the actual detail:

On her last three words, she struck three blows that each partially found their mark. The first burned a sizzling line down the apprentice's left shoulder. The second scored diagonally across his chest. The third would have skewered his right eye had he not held her back at the last minute with a desperate telekinetic block that stopped her lightsaber barely a millimeter from his skin. He could feel his eyelashes and eyebrows burning. The right side of his sight was entirely blue.

She gasped and staggered backward. Her lightsaber and her gaze dropped. A full half meter of red blade emerged from her stomach, then the rest came free with a hiss.

He backed away, shocked by how close he had come to death and how lucky he had been to defeat her.

Source: TFU novel.

Myth busted.

That was what I was referring to.

DS
While I don't approve of your methods SWL,

That's a polite way of calling him stupid.

You're not being very forthcoming about any of the extenuating factors at play in that duel, namely that one guy had a cannon-equipped flying war droid and the other guy had to run around on chains suspended several stories above the ground, and that after the guy on the chains wrecked the flying, blasterfire-spewing war droid and its rider was forced onto the chains too but thought that a lightsaber was no fair, guy on chains #1 consented, gave it up, and kicked his ass with a goddamn battleaxe instead.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Who could disconnect from the Force?

Clone Wars issue 76 and 77. Master Tholme did it with no difficult



Nyriss killed weaklings with it.

Unlike her, Dooku has defeated impressive beings with it.




Right. It wasn't to distract Yoda or anything, right?
He did want to kill Obi-wan. Anakin was another story. Palpatine wanted anakin to join them, Dooku knew.



So Dooku keeps blasting him into submission, Savage admits he can't kill Dooku for his power.

And you're using this to DOWNPLAY dooku? Nevermind that Savage is better than Ventress, who's taken on Council Members
Sure;



I see. So, Scourge (who's hardly close to top tier) would have died, so that makes her godly?
Oh, and that says it'd kill him. Palpatine has killed force users with lightning as well. Would Nyriss have left a body? Care to prove otherwise?


No, he was hit from behind.
Maul tolerated lightning from Mighella and Palpatine could turn him to ash any time he wanted to.


Has Scourge?
They were powerful enough to defend against Vader, and revive Maul, btw


Show me Nyriss doing the same. Dooku could have killed Sora and Asajj had he chosen



No. Revan absorbed it and released it back at her. That's now HIS power.
Nyriss produced less lightning than a neonate Bane against a talented apprentice and the Exile after failed brain surgery and got owned the minute the big boy stepped in the ring



consistently bringing down high levels with it. Sure

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And yet he was stopped.

Mere statements like these are not enough.


So was Malak, as I recall. Or did you forget that? Palpatine was stopped, but it required the full power of the Jedi before them all and clone sabotage to do it



And as we see, that proves how badly the Exile was written when as the second someone with actual skill steps in...



Two 'expert duelists? ' When was Meetra noted for her 'expert' skills? Scourge was a talented apprentice. Just like Sirak. He's shown nothing to compare to Asajj Ventress, that's for sure.

The fact that an opponent weaker than neonate Bane could best them doesn't speak well for them at all

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j361/JanusMarius/ragnossolos.jpg

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Galen died in the attempt, I believe we should recall.
I have told you before that it was not Palpatine's power that killed him. He opened himself up to the Force. Read TFU novel. It explains everything in detail.

A squadron of stormtroopers ran into the room, led by a limping Darth Vader. They raised their blasters to gun down the Rebels as they fled up the Rogue Shadow's ramp.

"No!" the apprentice cried, dropping his defenses to strike one last time at the Imperials. Energy surged through him. He felt as though a star had blazed to life in his chest. Driven by concern for his friends rather than himself, he embraced the Force completely, utterly, and was rewarded with strength that made his efforts with the dark side look like those of a child. His nerves were on fire. Streamers of light radiated from his skin. His bones glowed like radiant lava.

He saw rather than felt the massive shock wave that consumed a large portion of what remained of the observation dome. A glowing bubble of fire tore the stormtroopers to shreds and engulfed Vader and the Emperor. Shrapnel filled the air like dust caught in the beam of the Death Star's powerful laser.

Tossed like a leaf, the Rogue Shadow fled in haste, ramp snapping shut on its precious cargo.

The apprentice felt himself leaving his body again. Or was his body leaving him this time? He felt ripped apart by the energy that had flowed through him. Every cell was in shock; every fiber shook. The fire on his face possessed no heat at all. His limbs felt as distant as the farthest arms of the galaxy. He was amazed there was enough left of him to think at all.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
For reference, Starkiller II was channeling an entire storm of energy against Vader on Kamino and failed to defeat him (Oh, Starkiller? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ki16YJPZ1GQ WAY more than 13 bolts)
No need to exaggerate, Genius. Starkiller subdued Vader with that blast of Lightning. He was about to execute him but Kota arrived on the scene.

Here;

http://i41.tinypic.com/5wxh68.png

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Whereas Palpatine's lightning mortally wounded Vader
Vader was holding Palpatine. The Emperor's Force Lightning engulfed him from all sides and his mechanical parts suffered damage. Vader was already weakened by his duel with Luke prior to this. Circumstances of this event were different.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
"Weaker than" =/= "a joker in comparison to."
Projecting a little?
Fine. Sidious' most powerful incarnation is what makes him exceptional.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Nihilus is specifically noted to have power without command. The others are, again, weaker than people like Yoda and Palpatine
Without command? He moved an enormous ship with the Force. He destroyed an entire planet with his Force Draining abilities. He effortlessely dominated Darth Traya in combat.

His only notable drawback was that he could not control his hunger. His hunger controlled him. Don't make abusurd claims.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Prove it. It references Palpatine as stronger in the context of his fight with Yoda and the novelization indicates Palpatine's amazing power as well
First, quote the name and page in the New Essential Chronology here. You are in to misrepresenting information as proven in this thread.

And it is a vague statement. Palpatine has been stated to be most powerful in vague sense. It is not explicitly stated that Palpatine surpassed all of his predecessors in power when he faced Master Yoda.

Also, when the New Essential Chronology was written; Lord Vitiate was not introduced. Darth Plagueis was also an unknown, and neither Darth Nihilus is mentioned in it. Under the light of missing information, it was easy for the author to consider Darth Sidious as most powerful Sith Lord.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Only one has any feats of which worth mentioning.
Nice.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
"Most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known"
Yoda>Revan
Covered above.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yoda had 900 years of study compared to Revan's paltry decades, if you like that game.
And yet he failed to stop Palpatine, who also had paltry decades of experience?

Power is not everything.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yoda is referred to as the 'fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful'
Yes, he was a champion of Light. But not the only one.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
and described as 'the master of all Jedi' while Palpatine is the 'lord of all Sith'.
Being 'the master of all Jedi' does not suggests that the Master is most powerful in comparison. We have seen apprentices becoming more powerful then their Masters in Star Wars.

Yoda was the grand master of the Jedi Order. Obviously, he trained every Jedi to a certain level in his time.

Same point applies to Sith. And Palpatine is not the only Sith Lord with impressive showings.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Stupid analogy. Yoda is incredible with the saber and the Force.
He is not the only one and he is not necessarily the best fighter. Among the best would be correct claim.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Galen pulled it down. We've seen Yoda lift several huge landing craft, and he's made it clear that's not the extent of his abilities
Covered above. No comparison.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Palpatine was capable of binding the spirits of Ancient Sith to his will for rituals on a cosmic scale at that juncture.
Mention the source and page number.

Lord Vitiate lived for over 1000 years. We know very little about his history. But even with limited information, he appears to be incredibly powerful.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Let's look at how he's described as well. The darkness beyond darkness, the event horizon in the Force...
Hyperbolic. Lord Vitiate is arguably more scary and dangerous. He could force even powerful Jedi in to submission with just his telepathic abilities.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
So was Malak, as I recall. Or did you forget that?
Your memory does not serves you well. Malak was officially stated to be nearly unstoppable by the point of battle of Rakata Prime.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Palpatine was stopped, but it required the full power of the Jedi before them all and clone sabotage to do it
No. Only this:

Only the efforts of his sister Leia saved him from eternal darkness. If not for her, the Emperor might have triumphed.

Source: The Dark Empire Sourcebook.

And it took the Jedi Order's most powerful CHAMPION to bring down Darth Malak at his prime. According to Drew, it would have been a long and vicious duel.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And as we see, that proves how badly the Exile was written when as the second someone with actual skill steps in...
No. Lord Nyriss has been presented as a very powerful and dominating character in Revan' novel.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Two 'expert duelists? ' When was Meetra noted for her 'expert' skills? Scourge was a talented apprentice. Just like Sirak. He's shown nothing to compare to Asajj Ventress, that's for sure.
Have I told you before that your assumptions are baseless? Yes, I did.

Lord Scourge was not just a talented apprentice. He was an accomplished Sith Lord by the time of KOTOR 2. And you cannot prove that Assaj was better duelist then Lord Scourge. Nothing in her description suggests as such. Lord Scourge' blade could become an extension of his will. When he tapped in to his rage, he could become an instrument of death and destruction.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
The fact that an opponent weaker than neonate Bane could best them doesn't speak well for them at all
Another sign of brain drain. If you cannot substantiate your utterly baseless assumptions, don't make them.

Going with Sidious. Revan may be able redirect Palps lightning but nothing puts him on an equal level with a saber.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Dooku defeated Obi-wan, the greatest Soresu master who ever lived.


Where exactly is this stated?

I assume its a simple guesstimation based on that he's the best we've seen.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I assume its a simple guesstimation based on that he's the best we've seen. Which would be an incredibly idiotic thing to say. If we weren't told, we wouldn't know it was Soresu.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Which would be an incredibly idiotic thing to say. If we weren't told, we wouldn't know it was Soresu.

While not particularly polite, this is a point; we don't know very many Soresu users in canon. Of dedicated practitioners (not dabblers), I can name two: Unduli and Kenobi.

Zannah?

Didn't read those novels, actually. I have no excuse, since I have them digitally somewhere, but yeah.

How Ironic considering

*Spoiler*






Your precious Revan gets taken out by the Empire in a mid-level flashpoint by 4 mid-tier players.

Great argument. That is, it would be if you weren't discussing a beta, and a build that no longer exists. In the newer builds, Revan doesn't die in either the Republic or Empire flashpoints. And the jedi/sith in the storylines are apparently uber powerful, as stupid as that is. But good try.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Great argument. That is, it would be if you weren't discussing a beta, and a build that no longer exists. In the newer builds, Revan doesn't die in either the Republic or Empire flashpoints. And the jedi/sith in the storylines are apparently uber powerful, as stupid as that is. But good try.

Lol Revan still dies. The only difference now is that he explodes in an Emperor Palpatine esq fashion. Try again.
Fanboys are waaaing all over the tor boards

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Lol Revan still dies. The only difference now is that he explodes in an Emperor Palpatine esq fashion. Try again.
Fanboys are waaaing all over the tor boards Only fanboys are crying are the PT fanboys who are now pissed that he doesn't die. Sorry child, I've actually played the flashpoint on two separate occasions. But that's of course if we ignore the fact that the game is a beta and you're using their boss status in a vs. fight. Either way, awesome troll.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Only fanboys are crying are the PT fanboys who are now pissed that he doesn't die. Sorry child, I've actually played the flashpoint on two separate occasions. But that's of course if we ignore the fact that the game is a beta and you're using their boss status in a vs. fight. Either way, awesome troll.

He explodes in the same exact manner Starkiller and Palpatine do. He's dead bro. Deal with it.
Malgus himself says.
"His Story has ended."

Sorry bro, he pushes everyone away and disappears. There's no death no matter how much you want to believe it.. In "beta".

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Sorry bro, he pushes everyone away and disappears. There's no death no matter how much you want to believe it.. In "beta".

Are you serious?
Revan says
"And in the end as the darkness takes me, I am nothing. Now I know how you felt my friend."
Then explodes in a massive wave of the force.
Hmmmm where did I hear that before, oh I remember

"And in the end, as the darkness takes me, I am nothing."http://img.search.com/thumb/2/2c/MalakDeath.jpg/200px-MalakDeath.jpg

Once again, someone hasn't even see the newer builds of the beta.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Once again, someone hasn't even see the newer builds of the beta.

You are making this up. Revan exploding in a flash of light does not equate him living. You are grasping at straws here.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
You are making this up. Revan exploding in a flash of light does not equate him living. You are grasping at straws here.

So basically we're to take your word because... I assume you've played the recent build, right? What's that now? Argument from "inability to consider alternatives"?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
So basically we're to take your word because... I assume you've played the recent build, right? What's that now? Argument from "inability to consider alternatives"?

He is dead. He is stated to be dead in verse. What more proof do you need?

Would providing evidence of Revan's death/survival from either side be too much to ask?

Considering he doesn't die with either faction, while actually knowingly surviving with the Republic, the onus is on someone else to prove that he dies.

Originally posted by RevanSpoilers
Would providing evidence of Revan's death/survival from either side be too much to ask?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RmQMSPOPpI&feature=related

Darth Malgus
"Now his story is ended."

My, those words are conclusive.. From 2 builds ago*

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
My, those words are conclusive.. From 2 builds ago*
No 2 builds ago Revan had a hood with his mask. His fate remains. I check the spoiler boards daily. Nothing has changed. He still says Malak's line. Malgus still says he is dead.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvEjL0GWJGk

THIS
is the video from 2 builds ago.

Oh wonderful. You'll excuse me if I take my own word (from someone who played the flashpoint recently), over a spoilers board. Also, I thought Malgus says his story has ended? Which one is it?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Oh wonderful. You'll excuse me if I take my own word (from someone who played the flashpoint recently), over a spoilers board. Also, I thought Malgus says his story has ended? Which one is it?

Well said.

It's not like you've ever misrepresented facts or statements for the benefit of your own agenda or are hopelessly biased for Revan, right? You're just smart enough to know that Revan can't possibly lose here. You can't be a fanboy if your appreciation for a character is well grounded in facts and the fact is that Revan clearly doesn't die. I'll take your word on it, you don't need proof.

You'd have a point if you were objective. And if I was hopelessly biased towards Revan, I'd have him defeating everyone. Since you intentionally love misrepresenting my position, I'm going to chalk it up to another reactive rebuttal. But yes, don't take the word of someone who's played it, take the word of someone that portrays character X in the way you'd like and then call someone else biased!

Nah bro, I do take your word for it.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Oh wonderful. You'll excuse me if I take my own word (from someone who played the flashpoint recently), over a spoilers board. Also, I thought Malgus says his story has ended? Which one is it?

Post a video and I'll believe you. Video proof>Some guy's word. Especially when your word conveniently supports your position.

Also even if Revan is still alive he still lost to the people in the flashpoint. Yoda didn't die in his fight against Sidious, but he's certainly not more powerful than Sidious because of that.

At least pretend that you aren't 13.

I'm not sure why someone who has carefully danced around the question of "have you played the effin' beta" needs you to prove up anything. Clearly, he hasn't proved how strong or weak the pseudo-canon flashpoint members are at this point, so his argument is moot. For all we know, Bioware could come out next week and say that it was a group of a hundred Sith Inquisitors that Revan ragdolled before a stealthed assassin got him from behind. He could be like the Viking at Stamford Bridge; I mean really.... what does this prove?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
At least pretend that you aren't 13.

I am being serious. If you would just post a video all of this would be solved.