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THIS THREAD WILL CONTAIN SPOILERS.

Lots, and lots.


Ganondorf runs this gauntlet... With a few new powers granted by his original form. Demise.

http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo141/ShinTwist_ScreamPaste/Demise-Large.jpg

Everyone, meet proto-Ganon.

Skyward Sword brings the scale of Ganon's power into a new light.

Some feats include
-Conquering time. (However the **** you do that)
-Crippling a goddess. (But ultimately losing to her. He'd apparently have won had they fought again, so weakened she was from the battle.) Note she is not one of the goddesses of creation, but powerful in her own right.
-Creating a massive fissure in the earth and flooding the planet with demons which slaughtered the Hylian race.
-Reincarnating as mother****ing Ganondorf.

Those are all feats without a piece of the triforce.

Demisendorf does three fights, each themed around a piece of the triforce, in the order I collected them at the end of the game.


1. With his sword, Ghirahim, in hand, he squares off against a group of characters who represent Power.

Akuma, War, Kharne the Betrayer, who promises to try to play nice. A little.

He fights alone. This takes place in Demise' pocket dimension where he fights Link. Straight up fight with no nonsense.

2. Battle two is against characters who represent Courage.

Samus Aran, because I've always wanted to debate against someone reasonable, leads her trio, with full access to all of her gear, but no 'suit stacking for extra damage reduction', she wears her strongest armour. She is accompanied by the brave, albeit annoying, Dante. He too has all of his gear. Lastly, Sora joins. No time ****ery for anyone because Demise apparently conquered time.

They charge into his castle and face the dungeon before they fight him.

Once again, he fights alone, but may force Ghirahim back to a human form to help him fight, or use him as a weapon in his sword form, at any given time, whichever is more advantageous.

3. A trio of characters who represent Wisdom. He faces an Eldar Farseer, Kain the Vampire, an avatar of Vecna.

The final trio is given one full day of preparation time.

(I had a hard time coming up with characters for the Wisdom fight, shame on me.)

During all battles an orchestra protected by a force cage of pure justice which protects them from all harm and interaction plays this song:

qkYSuWSPkHI

F*ck you.

F*ck you so hard.

: <

I put a spoiler warning up!

Not that.

Too many words.

Eyes hurt. Will read later...

He stops at 1, Kharn the betrayer being a chaos marine with a chain axe would chop him into piecies. I cant recall anything to note of War and I dont know Akuma.

In 2, Dante could probably solo.

In 3, Kain could solo, as no doubt could an Eldar Farseer.

I can understand some hype but why this spite thread was made just because Ganondorfs previous form looks vastly cooler than the new and has a few spicy sounding claims around him is beyond me.

Guy looks like Akuma on a bad day.

Kharne, while awesome, isn't going to solo Ganondorf, I'm afraid. He still needs to actually hit him with Gorechild to achieve anything, without assistance he has no way to do that against Ganondorf, who can fly.

Dante's already been in a thread against Ganondorf on his own. It didn't go his way. Thanks for your long and well thought out post on why Dante would apparently solo.

The Eldar Farseer is definitely more threatening than Kain, yes. Kain soloing is even more laughable than ever, though. Demise was able to hold his own in a fight against the Goddess Hylia, whose servants can do things like flood entire regions or blow up volcanoes with casual ease.

Demise reincarnated as Ganondorf, with a piece of the triforce? Kain is outclassed in every way.

He could probably toss Gorechild through Dorf, killing him fairly quickly, Dorf being fairly slow, certainly not comparable to the reactions of a marine and if flight is the problem, any of the other two with him could probably toss him, it would look lulzy but I can see it working.

"it didnt go his way" from you pretty much means "Claimed Dorf the win without debating anything!". I thought it was pretty clear, Dante being far faster and more than powerful enough.

Unless you have the showing of him fighting Hylia, you have nothing but a title.

lol, apart from the way where he is faster, can kill with any one of his spells, mind rape or simply slash him in half, if it wasnt for your thread related removal of time powers, he would slash him in half while in stasis.

Again, ill put this thread down to your utter joy of Skyward sword, pushing your already more than enthusiastic fan love to this spite thread.

You'd be right. The game's incredible.

You'd be wrong here, there is definite debate to be had.

Dante for all his speed and strength has no answer to TK --> Decapitation.

Kain, for all his wrinkly undeath, has not a single feat that puts him on the level of his opponent in any category, and will certainly need his allies to succeed. You'd be wiser to put your chips on the combination of the Farseer and Avatar of Vecna.

I can see trickster getting him out of TK, not that Ganons Tk is necesserily strong, if anything all I recall seeing it move is the dead body of one of his minions although his problem is going ot be reacting to do this TK before Dante beheads him.

Just words, I see no evidence for your argument at all, just fan love.

Aren't you supposed to wait a few months before making a thread concerning a new release? mmm

Edit: Also, proto Ganon looks dumb.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Aren't you supposed to wait a few months before making a thread concerning a new release? mmm

Edit: Also, proto Ganon looks dumb. Doesn't seem so, but I doubt anyone with an argument will post in this thread anyway.

http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2011/056/7/2/oni_akuma_by_voldreth-d3ae6pq.png

Y U DO DIS?

Hmmm. Best I can say is she could exploit Demise's "weakness" to electricity with the wave beam or wavebuster to stun him, and follow up with the Light Beam, since it has the best chance of hurting him. I don't know if Dante or Sora have anything to keep him from coming back.

Against Ghirahim, same thing, Light Beam is the best chance.

/Compliment troll.

Weakness, though? Demise actively gets struck by lightning on purpose.

I only say that because Link can do it, too, and both are able to stun each other. When their swords get struck, nothing happens, but getting hit by an electrified sword works for some reason.


Incidentally, those Bokoblins with tasers. **** them.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Y U DO DIS?

Hmmm. Best I can say is she could exploit Demise's "weakness" to electricity with the wave beam or wavebuster to stun him, and follow up with the Light Beam, since it has the best chance of hurting him. I don't know if Dante or Sora have anything to keep him from coming back.

Against Ghirahim, same thing, Light Beam is the best chance.

Weak to electricity huh? Well, Sora can use Thunder. That's fairly electrifying! Sora can also assist his captain with his own light beam. I know nil about Dante though.

Originally posted by The Scenario
I only say that because Link can do it, too, and both are able to stun each other. When their swords get struck, nothing happens, but getting hit by an electrified sword works for some reason.


Incidentally, those Bokoblins with tasers. **** them.
It's probably similar to how Ganon's own magic can hurt him in later games. Demise is the one who created that lightning bolt, after all.

And yes, **** them, lol. Never swing from the right first, always hit from the left, it's safer against them.

Still cant belive youve put some of the more powerful entities in fiction against a character that consistently gets defeated by a kid with a sword and shield. Thats even literal, all the entities here have more power, protection and variety beyond pretty much all links and canonically he only needs a couple of items to even win. Watching vids of Demise, theres not even much he can do, if hes supposed to have beaten a goddess then clearly, their not as powerful as you assume.

That 'kid' is a hero in the literal and figurative sense. He does things no one else could do, and the sword in question is an artifact of incredible power.

Skyward Sword has it forged and empowered by the three goddesses that created everything. That's the origin of the Master Sword. It was created as the goddess sword by Hylia, and empowered by the three most powerful deities in the continuity. And that shield is imbued with heroic power, that is the word used, making it indestructable.

Link's skill and ability with those things are unquestionable. To quote Demise himself "You fight like no man or demon I've ever known..."

Demise fought HYLIA. You know, the goddess that created Skyloft, and seperated it from the surface world with a seal? Then created three dragons who are casual city busters? haermm

Comparing Link to a 'kid with a sword and shield' is like comparing An Astartes to a couch potato armed with a pocket knife.

I see some hyperbole, a lot of titles and no limit fallacies and as I suspected,no real feats.

Yet, Hylia<<a kid with a sword and shield apprently.

The sword is unquestionably more powerful than she is. You act like I'm saying she's omnipotent. Creating Skyloft and the dragons, seperating Skyloft from the world, these are feats. She's not anywhere close to Din, Farore, or Nayru. But she is certainly powerful.

The sword is more so. No limit fallacy? Name one. It'll be fun.

But not link, only the sword. So Demise, Ganon etc have never been able to stop a kid from hitting them with said sword. Their not combat feats and are vague tbh.

ok, "indestructable shield", no limits fallacy oh Lord of fallacies.

Demise wasn't even at full power. The whole point of that fight was to beat him before he finished draining Zelda/Hylia's soul.

Hylian shield is legit unable to be broken by anything in game, though.

Originally posted by Burning thought
But not link, only the sword. So Demise, Ganon etc have never been able to stop a kid from hitting them with said sword. Their not combat feats and are vague tbh.

ok, "indestructable shield", no limits fallacy oh Lord of fallacies. Sure it would be, if I tried to claim that against things it's not been tested against. In the universe where it's stated to be indestructable and nothing has ever broken it? Good enough. It's not even in this thread, but Demise can't break it.

Link is, again, to a kid what an astartes is to a couch potato. He's stronger, faster, better. Shit, he's even super-musical. He owns a harp for five minutes and plays an unnecessarily complex tune after hearing it once.

And it's mentioned in game that Link himself becomes more powerful as he travels with Fi.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Sure it would be, if I tried to claim that against things it's not been tested against. In the universe where it's stated to be indestructable and nothing has ever broken it? Good enough. It's not even in this thread, but Demise can't break it.

Link is, again, to a kid what an astartes is to a couch potato. He's stronger, faster, better. Shit, he's even super-musical. He owns a harp for five minutes and plays an unnecessarily complex tune after hearing it once.

And it's mentioned in game that Link himself becomes more powerful as he travels with Fi.

No, claiming its indestructable in a vs thread is simply a no limits fallacy. Its not indestructable and the claim is useless if all your saying is, people in Hyrule cant damage it, thats not saying much.

Terrible comparison. The power of courage and quick learning is the only real difference, his strength and speed come in short and his durability non excistent, hence why he has to fend off blows with a shield, wooden or "indestructable" Hylian

Yeh, but no gauge?

There's far more difference than that. Shit, a minor character in the game, Fledge, is pointedly a coward and a weakling, who after a little encouragement from Link can do 4000 push ups as a 'warm up'. This is someone who looks up to Link as a paragon.

Zelda has a lot of Charles Atlas superpower going on. Link himself spends a lot of time in game working impossibly large mechanisms like the dias on the Isle of Songs, or besting giant monsters in sword fights. More of the typical Zelda fare.

By the end of the game he can go through every single boss enemy in the game in a gauntlet without any aid, back to back with no rest, and come out ahead, lol. Including Ghirahim, who bests one of the aforementioned city busting dragons in combat.

Add "super" fitness adviser and medicore skill to the "courage" and "learning" list then. Thats still nothing useful combatwise. Also I bet if I even bothered to look it up, "city busting" is probably nowhere as impressive as your trying to make it sound.

Yes, because the ability to walk through a gauntlet of super-powered monsters by yourself isn't impressive? How about soloing an entire army by yourself? And doing it in a few minutes?

Skyward Sword Link does both of those things.

Faron, the water dragon floods an entire region of the world, and does so casually. She drains it just as quickly. Impa, at the time very advanced in age, holds back the tide of billions of galons of water with "a simple seal".

Impa, in her prime, tries to hold back Ghirahim with a similar shield and he physically shatters it. He also bests the dragon, Faron, in combat. Link humiliates him. He's a part of the gauntlet Link walks I mentioned before, too. Hah.

Oh, Ghirahim is just Demise's sword. Demise himself is much more powerful. And Demise reincarnates as Ganondorf, and gains a piece of the triforce, making him even more powerful.

Why you're debating Link I don't know, we're debating Ganondorf.

Ganondorf who can BFR Kharn if piercing his armour seems to be a hassle, which given that Kharn lacks armour on his arm, may not be an issue.

Who can Become incorporeal, or attack Akuma's soul from the twilight realm. Or just fly up and rain lightning on him.

Who can physically tear War limb from limb.

Who can use his TK, and magical barriers to keep them separated.

Ganondorf clears fight one, imho.

Fight two? I'll need to debate with Scenario, and hopefully, BR, to be able to tell. Once that's decided you can come back and defend Kain all you like, he's the weakest member of his team.

lol show me "super powered" and no its not really, not by fictions standards or those in this gauntlet.

Show me that, actually sounds impressive.

Well you dont know its similiar do you? all we know is he spends a good few minutes hitting it.

Ill add to that, he cant fall a few meters without being incapaciated.

Show me Ganondorfs BFR spell, if its "the gap between dimensiosn" then Kharn needs to be a lifeless body who will allow himself to be extremely slowly moved to the portal.

I would like to see this, him attacking while incpororeal. As for tearing War limb from limb? lulzy, he cant break the block of a kid.

You wouldnt know, since you dont know Kain at all and therefore cannot compare although your a troll so its expected, weakest or not, hes still so far beyond dorf, demise and link, as well as the majority of this gauntlets members its laughable.

Originally posted by Burning thought
lol show me "super powered" and no its not really, not by fictions standards or those in this gauntlet.

They're the game's bosses; it's to be expected.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQ0AFHNvjFQ#t=9m35s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQ0AFHNvjFQ#t=10m5s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roy7o1HIiwY#t=3m8s

FLOOD EVERYTHING seems to be the standard divine reaction to problems.




35 seconds exactly before Ghirahim shattered that barrier.



Consistency, average, etc. In effect, one low showing does not actually invalidate everything, such as Ghirahim being unharmed by the Master Sword or getting struck by lightning repeatedly.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgnPfTezk28#t=2m15s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMB9zKgR5f0#t=42s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyDloMg58AU#t=2m30s

Nothing actually prevents Ganondorf from opening the gap directly under people, you realize.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aKKHNN4U7c#t=2m10s

Originally posted by The Scenario
They're the game's bosses; it's to be expected.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQ0AFHNvjFQ#t=9m35s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQ0AFHNvjFQ#t=10m5s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roy7o1HIiwY#t=3m8s

FLOOD EVERYTHING seems to be the standard divine reaction to problems.




35 seconds exactly before Ghirahim shattered that barrier.



Consistency, average, etc. In effect, one low showing does not actually invalidate everything, such as Ghirahim being unharmed by the Master Sword or getting struck by lightning repeatedly.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgnPfTezk28#t=2m15s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMB9zKgR5f0#t=42s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyDloMg58AU#t=2m30s

Nothing actually prevents Ganondorf from opening the gap directly under people, you realize.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aKKHNN4U7c#t=2m10s

No I mean actually show me her shielding "billiosn of gallons" of water, not mensions of some flooded forest.

Theres no "everything", its canon he has to fall to be beaten and it incapciates him. This Master sword stuff sounds like gameplay nonsense, not that the MS is powerful in any way.

Thats not BFR, also I would be surprised if any character in games vs stood there for the time it took to do. Looks to me like it only affected the helpless body of his phantom tbh, not sure if he could take someone who has any will at all.

He sort of goes invisible, then re-apears to attack. Also, I like how your having to use almost every showing of Ganon and his forms under the sun as if every form is capable of everything the others have done, I think in that last video he had the full triforce?

Originally posted by ScreamPaste

Ganondorf runs this gauntlet... With a few new powers granted by his original form. Demise.

Everyone, meet proto-Ganon.

Skyward Sword brings the scale of Ganon's power into a new light.

Some feats include
-Conquering time. (However the **** you do that)
-Crippling a goddess. (But ultimately losing to her. He'd apparently have won had they fought again, so weakened she was from the battle.) Note she is not one of the goddesses of creation, but powerful in her own right.
-Creating a massive fissure in the earth and flooding the planet with demons which slaughtered the Hylian race.
-Reincarnating as mother****ing Ganondorf.

Those are all feats without a piece of the triforce.

uz5WCbQQBec

Originally posted by Burning thought
No I mean actually show me her shielding "billiosn of gallons" of water, not mensions of some flooded forest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQ0AFHNvjFQ#t=7m35s

My mistake.



It's also canon that the Master is only capable of driving him backward slightly, not hurting him, which is the reason he needs to be pushed in the first place. He's also slamming into a powerful forcefield, so try to remember context.



Again, nothing prevents that from being opened under someone's feet, which didn't actually take that long.



He didn't reappear to attack, though. I linked you directly to him launching a firebat while invisible and incorporeal. He wasn't using the Triforce there anyway.

The fall doesn't even incapacitate him. Being beaten down with the master sword and knocked onto his back isn't 'incapcitation'. Lol, it's being knocked down. Link happens to follow him with his sword.

Edit:

So, since I made this thread for debate, banging my head against a particularly thick wall, Scenario, whatcha think of fight two?

Originally posted by The Scenario
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQ0AFHNvjFQ#t=7m35s

My mistake.



It's also canon that the Master is only capable of driving him backward slightly, not hurting him, which is the reason he needs to be pushed in the first place. He's also slamming into a powerful forcefield, so try to remember context.



Again, nothing prevents that from being opened under someone's feet, which didn't actually take that long.



He didn't reappear to attack, though. I linked you directly to him launching a firebat while invisible and incorporeal. He wasn't using the Triforce there anyway.


Damn, wasnt as impressive as I hoped, I was imagining a vast field of energy, ala the Atlantis disney movie holding back a vast tide. Instead she just used a bit of magic and a door to dam the water by the sounds of it.

I did remember, he is just falling a few meters, theres no "slamming" so stop trying to hype anything, I could probably take falling that distance better.

Took longer than anyone here would take avoiding it though although, the fact it appeared directly in the middle makes me wonder if its just area specific and cant be made anywhere.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
The fall doesn't even incapacitate him. Being beaten down with the master sword and knocked onto his back isn't 'incapcitation'. Lol, it's being knocked down. Link happens to follow him with his sword.


lieing there like a cripple is pretty incapacitated. All here could probably throw him higher than he fell there, no doubt killing him, smashed like a china doll.

He doesn't lie there like a cripple. He gets knocked down and lands on his back, Link follows with his sword.

The fall doesn't even hurt him, and why would it? We already know he can take more. Trollololo...

Like I said, come back when fight three is being discussed. Your bias isn't welcome here when people are trying to debate.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
He doesn't lie there like a cripple. He gets knocked down and lands on his back, Link follows with his sword.

The fall doesn't even hurt him, and why would it? We already know he can take more. Trollololo...

Like I said, come back when fight three is being discussed. Your bias isn't welcome here when people are trying to debate.

Stuck on his back like a turtle, defenceless from a few meters fall.

Pot calling kettle, I probably know more of these characters than you do.

Also lol, yes, people are, stop trying to pretend your part of it.

I had a good laugh at that. Even with a human's strength and a normal sword, more damage can be done than from a fall. At the beginning of the game he stops sword blows from Link, who is exceptional at this point, with a magic sword.

That precludes falling damage, I'm afraid, on it's own. Let alone his later feats. You've never even played a Zelda game, claiming you know more about them than I do is one of the stupidest things you've ever said. I've played all of them, and been a fan for my entire life. I've loved Zelda games longer than you have existed.

Trying to use one piece of gameplay, and then intentionally misinterpret it, against all of Ghirahim's other feats is hilarious. Especially when you try to convince people Kain is more durable than the crust of a planet. Kain is less durable than Dumah was, Dumah was impaled by humans.

How's that for canon? Gtfo my thread with your bias, so I can have a proper debate. If it's agreed Ganon makes it to fight three, I'll take you off ignore.

He stops them, doesnt take them also I am only seeing gameplay not cutscenes. Also, he was still incapcitated, not even a human can fall from that and be down for so long, so its obvious even if his outer shell is decently durable his inner body is like crab tissue.

I didnt say that, go read my posts. Seems to be your problem, if you spent a fraction of the time you goggle Ganon with saliva pouring down your shirt on reading posts and checking your own for the many errors youd get somewhere.

Its not just a piece of gameplay, its a canon cirumstance that has to happen. I didnt convince anyone on the durability subject, the math made by many other people did which funnily enough proved most nay sayers wrong, you bringing up something completly false does not counter that.

lol, you, a proper debate? ill belive it when I see it, proper of course meaning no trolling, actual arguments and evidence.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Damn, wasnt as impressive as I hoped, I was imagining a vast field of energy, ala the Atlantis disney movie holding back a vast tide. Instead she just used a bit of magic and a door to dam the water by the sounds of it.

Yeah, it was such a simple spell they didn't even show her "drive back" the water.



Well, I'm just wondering why you think he was incapacitated when he gets up afterward. That ignores that Link can't hurt him with the sword initially, and is forced to drive him back because that's all he can do. It ignores Link driving the Master Sword into the same spot three times before the armor cracks, and then the fight continues after that. In addition, Ghirahim must weigh quite a lot in that form.



It appeared in under a second, though.



What's with this "only one feat" thing? Ghirahim tanks all manner of sword strikes, catching swords with his armor, and getting struck by lightning, but for some reason all you can see is him not getting up instantly after a fall. Seems biased to me.

So, Samus brings some impressive firepower to the table. Her power beam can hit incorporeal targets in Metroid Prime, and she may be able to track Ganon with her visors, even. I'd say she's the key to her team.

Do you think that between her, Dante, and Sora, they can take him down? My money says, if Ganon can take Samus down, or cripple her somehow, the others will fall shortly thereafter.

Homefield advantage from being assaulted in his own dungeon make a difference? My money there is on his physical capability, to be honest. Samus suit can easily stand up to most of the weaponry from Metroid, but how do you feel she'd handle a direct strike from Ganon with Ghirahim? I think he's strong enough to put her down if that's allowed to happen.

Alternatively, he could pick off her team-mates first, assuming she'd unable to warn them in time. A lightning bolt to the back for Dante/Sora?

Unless you'd dispute he clears fight one? We can debate that, too.

/Throws bait.

How did Link beat him if 3 of the most powerful VG characters are a toss up against him.

In spoilerz.

1.The Master sword is now the most powerful (active) character remaining in the canon. It's now canonically powered by all three of the goddesses of creation, and forged by a fourth Goddess, Hylia. That's SS. It's also stated as being a failsafe for the entirety of the triforce in aLttP.
2. Link usually carries a piece of the triforce in addition to that, and we're informed in Skyward Sword that Link "fights like no man or demon I've ever known.", which is impressive, considering Demise crippled a goddess so thoroughly she elected to take human form and pursue the triforce as a means to defeat him. He lost, but would have won had they fought again. He considered her a worthy foe.

So, to summarise, Link with the sword is more powerful than Hylia. /Shrug. He impales Demise with it, and as you know, fights Ganon many times later in the series.

To clarify, the sword is at least on par in scale of power with an artifact of at least planetary reality warping power.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
So, Samus brings some impressive firepower to the table. Her power beam can hit incorporeal targets in Metroid Prime, and she may be able to track Ganon with her visors, even. I'd say she's the key to her team.

Best bet there would be the Dark Visor, even if you're in another dimension Samus can see you. X-Ray visor can track incorporeal targets, too. If Ganondemise goes intangible all she'll have is the power beam, though, which I doubt can take him down alone. And Super Missiles, they work on ghosts, too.



If they work together, but I don't know much about Dante or Sora. IIRC, Dante has a sword that can cut through dimensions and Sora's all about Light powers. I think Sora has a reflect ability, too, so there's a game of Dead Man's Volley in the making. I suppose if Sora can distract him with that and Danted focuses on melee while Samus hits him from far away, they can win. Without Samus, I really can't say, but the weight of numbers is one of the biggest advantages here.



Maybe if Dante and Sora can electrify their weapons it could turn bad, but otherwise I'm not sure unless the lightning actually attacks them. Samus can take some heavy hits, I don't think a normal hit could inst-down her, but an electrified one has a much better chance.



/shrug.



Well, again unless he can one shot them the weight of numbers is the biggest problem. Otherwise, eh, I think he'd pass it.

I think that mostly what she's doing when he takes that form is acting as a target spotter. Dante and Sora will know to stay the **** away from wherever the power beam is being shot. Which is good. Samus is the leader of the team because she's the most utilitarian and I think without her their effort will fall apart.

True, but Ganon has some glorious crowd control with his barriers and portals and teleportation and the like. I'm comfortable pitting him against a trio because of his ability to force a fight to his advantage with those powers.

For example, if Samus' spotting with the power beam becomes an annoyance, he can pen her in for as long as it takes the others to stun him or her to break out. For the time being, her shots can't point him out to the others. Dante's likely to stay alive a little while based on regen, but his stamina does wear down the more his body is forced to heal. An arm torn off here and there will be the end of him eventually, and with his TK, Ganondorf can certainly force that, too.

Sora, for some reason, I keep thinking has an answer to TK, which might keep Dante in the game. But I can't be certain. /Shrug.

I was thinking a more classic dungeon with puzzles. Ganon could still electrify his attacks, I assume, since you know, he's got lightning powers anyway. Still, it was a very, very cool visual in SS.

Hm, it's been a while for me, how physically tough is Samus' suit? I think a direct hit could at the least be very damaging. Might attack her with electricity, too. I'm fairly certain her soul at least is protected. Not sure about Dante or Sora.

Crowd control is a beautiful thing. I think we're in agreement there, then.

I've not read anything that puts This Gouki-ish Ganon on Gouki's level, let alone Shin or Oni. With a plethora of soul obliterating attacks, this new fellow seems to be dead meat.

Ganon has his own soul attacks, and can fly, use telekinesis, and BFR. He's also, by power-scaling, miles ahead of the city busters that occupy Zelda canon.

He's capable of invisibility, intangibility, and can lightning time.

Characters that can flood entire regions on a whim, or blow up volcanoes are fodder to Demise even without a single piece of the triforce. Ganondorf gets his piece.

Ganondorf with his power sealed has busted islands, and turned off the sun, because **** day time. By imbuing a mook with a fraction of his power, that mook could pull an entire country into another dimension.

Ect, ect.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
I think that mostly what she's doing when he takes that form is acting as a target spotter. Dante and Sora will know to stay the **** away from wherever the power beam is being shot. Which is good. Samus is the leader of the team because she's the most utilitarian and I think without her their effort will fall apart.

That might work. It's possible that the Light Beam or Sunburst could counter the Darkness Techique, too, if he uses it.




Oh, yeah, anyone who can't teleport might be sidelined by a barrier, though it'd have to be a big one to prevent Samus jumping over. I think Sora can teleport, not sure, and I don't think Dante can. Though against TK I guess Sora can fly?



Ah, well, puzzles won't stop Samus. Or the speed booster, and cover can go to her advantage with the wave beam/X-ray visor, though walls won't stop Ganon, either. That'd hinder Dante and Sora terribly, though.



Ghor is a 100 tonner, and while I can't prove he landed a hit, it's worth noting. She's got a ton of immunities (fire, ice, acid, gravity, water pressure, dark energy) and in the manga shrugged off a small mountain buster from Ridley, as well as a Kraid stomp. She actually doesn't have a lot of durability feats in game because almost all cutscenes involve her dodging. Powerscaling from the SA-X shows Super Missiles bounce off of the Varia suit.



War has a legit portal gun, lol. How will Kharne's magic resistance work out?

If light is dis guys weakness, Sora's little light beam has very casually overcomed the power of a star arranging god before.


Would that hurt him? :O

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
If light is dis guys weakness, Sora's little light beam has very casually overcomed the power of a star arranging god before.


Would that hurt him? :O Wat.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Wat.

Zeus was all like, "There is this Colosseum and I'm gonna lock it up so Hades can't get into it."

Hades then failed to get into it. Sora casually did.

Zeus is a star arranging god? Disney stars sometimes rearrange themselves. I think that might even have happened in the Hercules movie, and the titans took down Zeus, they're uh... Not really yeah.


I DUNNO, AM SKEPTICAL IS ALL I MEAN.

Aside from which point, Ancient Greek myth didn't account for space.

All in all, I am skeptical. Video, quotes, ect? For a moment there I think you crapped in my pants for me. Like, wat?

Cause I saw 'star arranging god' and was pretty mad, bro.

So Zeus made this lock. And Sora has this power that is based entirely around this key.

I think I can see where this is going.

Originally posted by The Scenario
So Zeus made this lock. And Sora has this power that is based entirely around this key.

I think I can see where this is going. This may come in handy in the dungeon, though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9one6BF0HEA

9:25 they start talking about the Arena. Zeus himself locked it up tight. Apparently.

15:36 Sora does his thing and unlocks it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1BEB-xukNg

13:35 ish you see the Star feat. Since Zues was the one who did this in the movies, he is the likeliest God to be doing it here.

And yes, while we're talking about dungeons, locks won't be keeping Sora out of anything. So I dun think he has to worry too much there.

Edit: I'll also note this wouldn't be the first time that the keyblade has shown such power. Planet busting, planet protecting, etc. And the stars in the KH universe are actual worlds so it's not as impressive as actual stars.

Still neat though imo.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Ganon has his own soul attacks, and can fly, use telekinesis, and BFR. He's also, by power-scaling, miles ahead of the city busters that occupy Zelda canon.

He's capable of invisibility, intangibility, and can lightning time.

Characters that can flood entire regions on a whim, or blow up volcanoes are fodder to Demise even without a single piece of the triforce. Ganondorf gets his piece.

Ganondorf with his power sealed has busted islands, and turned off the sun, because **** day time. By imbuing a mook with a fraction of his power, that mook could pull an entire country into another dimension.

Ect, ect.

Gouki's soul attacks are "one shots". Really, there's no way around them. It matters not how powerful you are, even characters like Pyron would fall victim, die, and be sent to Hell, if they were to be hit. The effectiveness of his attacks are then amplified by your past sins, the more evil you are, the more gruesome your death. Gouki in his Oni form can also fly and has TK. And by using "power-scaling" for Gouki, he could probably destroy the planet in a DBZ-like fashion, with a few punches.

Gouki can also sense the powers his opponents; invisibility is all but useless in a fight against him. Gouki can also become intangible through the Asura Senku and he can "lightning time" as well.

Gouki whilst holding back, at this point all of his power, was able blow mountainous and a volcanic islands to pieces with a single punch, shoot a blast into space in just seconds, the recoil of which which destroyed much of a forest. He also split Uluru, straight down the middle, with a single punch...and the list could go on for ages with much more. All of which, while holding back a nonsensical amount of his own power.

At just Shin, he jumped into orbit and annihilated a Apocalyptic meteorite. He did this in his second form. Even after all of this, his true limits are still virtually unknown. He lacks a single showing where he's going all out. It should be noted that the world destroying
meteorite event is not canon, but for many factors, including it's Shin Gouki's only showing, it's all we can possibly hope to go off of to get a grasp of his true powers.

Now when you factor in all of this magic nonsense, trinkets, dew-dads, and pretty much crutches in the eyes of Gouki, then I don't know. But when Gouki is in a thread, I automatically assume his opponent will be facing him man to man, hoping to win on his own power. Since you know, Gouki doesn't use weapons or magic.

I'd agree here, which further cements his need to either limit her, or take her out first.



Well, in TP Ganon can encase his entire castle, so I'm sure he can make a big enough barrier. Sora may be able to teleport, will have to check with Aura, or Moo. Dante though, I think lacks a teleport, and could also find himself sidelined if he's not careful. Getting penned in could really limit his movement, which I think could spell the end of him.

Flight is good, not sure how powerful his flight propulsion is, or how it'd stand up to the TK, but I think it'd at least hinder him. I think Sora may have to be dealt with first, actually, now that I think of it. He might be the hardest to limit with crowd control.

As for actually dealing with the mobile little blighter? I think with barriers keeping them separated, Ganon can handle him alone. Tag teaming him with Ghirahim for a moment would certainly be fun times.

Samus could still give helpful direction from the sidelines, and Dante may have an escape method, but I'm not sure. I do think, though, that on his own, Sora goes down hard. Ganon and Ghirahim are teleporters, though, and it's possible the pair could attempt the drop on Samus. Samus and Sora v.s. Ganon and Ghirahim are better odds for the heroes, but if Ganon comes out on top it's practically a win right there.



Samus for puzzles, Sora for locks, and Dante for one liners. Really, really cheesy one-liners. Also swording enemies.

With those kind of skills all in one place it seems doubtless they make it to the end very quickly, but the walls and the like will certainly put limitations on the fight which I think Ganon will work to his advantage.

A thought occurs, think Samus can shoot through a magical barrier? If so, that would force Ganon to hit her first. That could be an advantage because having some control over where the fight occurs and awareness of target priority probably allows the trio to stick close to her. Dante I think can be seperated easily enough, but Sora may have a teleport. If not, that makes things much easier.



Samus is pretty tough, yeah. Those aren't things beyond Ganon's power, (Partial mountain buster is more apt, big outcropping, or something I guess) but certainly impressive.

Depleting her suit's energy will be a priority, then. Lightning bolts and swordings ahoy. Also, unless they manage to stun him, I think he can defend himself pretty well from her light beam and stuff, based solely on him doing that with the light arrows in multiple games.


Actually not sure. I don't think it'll let Kharn bypass barriers, but it should ward TK and things, and keep Ganon from messing with him too hard outside of attacks that inflict physical damage.

Sora can teleport ho.

Edit: Or at the very least, move at speeds that make him appearing to be teleporting. Since the keyblade does allow it's wielder to teleport(sometimes automatically), I do call it teleporting.

I do know that this feat in particular is non-canon.

I'm aware of Gouki's power. Sinking an island on one occasion, and wrecking a mountain range during a fight on another. His recent power up created a crater and knocked over some trees. He certainly deserves his place in the power, trio.

But I'm comfortable putting Ganon against him for a few reasons, one of which is his incredible crowd control and general ability to really control a fight. He can erect barriers, shift dimensions, and use telekinesis to force the battle in certain ways. Gouki while strong, is still only as heavy as a very large man, and can be kept at bay long enough for Ganon to hopefully kill Kharn and War.

One way he might do this, is to call down a twilight field, leaving only Kharn unaffected, and killing him first. Gorechild is dangerous, but I'm confident Ganon is both faster and more powerful than Kharn.

When did Gouki lightning time?

Since Samus is leading the charge for team 2, is she likely to run in without a battle strategy? mmm

She'd probably want one, but I'm not sure what form it would take past "try not to get seperated".

I just imagined Samus leading Dante and Sora in a WoW raid, and them formulating a plan... So you know. Apparently Dante's in charge of snacks, and Samus provides the internet.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
I do know that this feat in particular is non-canon.

I'm aware of Gouki's power. Sinking an island on one occasion, and wrecking a mountain range during a fight on another. His recent power up created a crater and knocked over some trees. He certainly deserves his place in the power, trio.

But I'm comfortable putting Ganon against him for a few reasons, one of which is his incredible crowd control and general ability to really control a fight. He can erect barriers, shift dimensions, and use telekinesis to force the battle in certain ways. Gouki while strong, is still only as heavy as a very large man, and can be kept at bay long enough for Ganon to hopefully kill Kharn and War.

One way he might do this, is to call down a twilight field, leaving only Kharn unaffected, and killing him first. Gorechild is dangerous, but I'm confident Ganon is both faster and more powerful than Kharn.

When did Gouki lightning time?

True, but given what he can do, virtually hogtied, it isn't a stretch at all. If we can't use that, then every thread Gouki enters, he will be fighting with his hands and feet tied.

He is powerful, but he's fighting a character who uses magic and magical trinkets. He just seems completely out of place in this thread. Gouki's the only person here who fights with nothing but their hands and feet.

Gouki also has TK and pretty much, instant kill moves. And what is a Twilight Field, and how will it stop Ganon from being killed instantly with a Meido Go-Hado?

Weaker characters in the cast can fire off electricity at will, summon lightening at will, and create Sonic Booms. In a fighting game, ALL characters have to be able to, at least, dodge each other's attacks.

I don't think Samus forms plans until after the fight actually starts. She's not exactly known for prep skills, but she can improvise quite well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgftHvs0DQM#t=4m46s

So yeah.

Dis guys weakness is light. Sora can shoot fairly powerful beams of light that tear pathways in space and jazz like that. Will this hurt the bad guys? :O

His supernatural attacks count. :P Kharn is more direct than even Gouki is. Gorechild. Ohlawdy...

Which brings up a point concerning fight one. If Ganon is out of reach, Kharn's blood thirst may have him turn on his allies, and Gorechild, his axe, does not **** around.



The twilight field is an area he overlaps with another dimension known as the twilight realm, reducing everyone within it to souls. Gouki wouldn't be able to interact with him under those circumstances, he'd be completely unaware of Ganon who is unaffected by the field, but capable of interacting with him in turn. Very broken power. Kharn is probably protected from it.

Link was protected from this effect in Twilight Princess by a piece of the Triforce.



I disagree for a few reasons. One being that the logic you use allows others the durability necessary to take a direct hit from Gouki by blocking, which many do not have. Another is that such attacks can be tanked if you're durable enough, as Gouki seems to be when he focuses, or avoided by dodging the aim of the attack.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
So yeah.

Dis guys weakness is light. Sora can shoot fairly powerful beams of light that tear pathways in space and jazz like that. Will this hurt the bad guys? :O Destructive feats of said light? o.o

This guy is Ganon, so it's more his weakness is 'things that smite evil' but light can be useful for it's own reasons. (Darkness technique, ect.)

Well, it killed Xemnas. Za Big Bad. Well, sorta.

It also sealed god. But it took two to do this admittedly. The light beam isn't something used very often for fighting.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
His supernatural attacks count. :P Kharn is more direct than even Gouki is. Gorechild. Ohlawdy...

But his attacks aren't "supernatural", they're vastly superhuman. All of his power springs from martial arts training and emanates from his soul. You can't get more direct than that.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
The twilight field is an area he overlaps with another dimension known as the twilight realm, reducing everyone within it to souls. Gouki wouldn't be able to interact with him under those circumstances, he'd be completely unaware of Ganon who is unaffected by the field, but capable of interacting with him in turn. Very broken power. Kharn is probably protected from it.

Gouki can still do all of his chi moves as just a soul...since they originate from his soul. Oni's just a hollow shell filled with soul energy, anyway. In fact, I'm subject to say that as just a soul, Gouki would be much worse a foe with no body.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
I disagree for a few reasons. One being that the logic you use allows others the durability necessary to take a direct hit from Gouki by blocking, which many do not have. Another is that such attacks can be tanked if you're durable enough, as Gouki seems to be when he focuses, or avoided by dodging the aim of the attack.

You may disagree, but that's just basic logic when it comes to these types of games. Who's blocked Gouki's attack, that wasn't around Gouki's level in the first place? Gouki fought, in canon, very few characters in the series. The normal (emphasis on "normal" cast has to be able to fight one another. Which means most characters have to be able to dodge Blanka's lightening and Guile's Sonic Booms. Or else they'd be the strongest characters in the series, which they are not, by miles. Gouki is not part of the "normal" cast, just to get that out there.

A soul is by it's nature supernatural.

I'd like to see him fighting without his body, can you show me this actually occuring, where his soul is seperated from his body, and it fights?


No, it isn't.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameplayAndStorySegregation Tadah.

Exactly my point, just because a character in a fighting game can do X doesn't mean it's cast can do Y to deal with it, even though in gameplay they can fight each other with either winning.

Which is where there are other possibilities.

Characters may
1. Aim dodge, they see where an attack is directed and move before it's fired
2. Tank the damage through durability
3. Have defensive abilities that can be erected before the attack is set off.

ect, ect. Unless you have an actual incident of someone lightning timing, they're not a lightning timer.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Yeah, it was such a simple spell they didn't even show her "drive back" the water.



Well, I'm just wondering why you think he was incapacitated when he gets up afterward. That ignores that Link can't hurt him with the sword initially, and is forced to drive him back because that's all he can do. It ignores Link driving the Master Sword into the same spot three times before the armor cracks, and then the fight continues after that. In addition, Ghirahim must weigh quite a lot in that form.



It appeared in under a second, though.



What's with this "only one feat" thing? Ghirahim tanks all manner of sword strikes, catching swords with his armor, and getting struck by lightning, but for some reason all you can see is him not getting up instantly after a fall. Seems biased to me.

Maybe incapacitated is the wrong word, but I dont have one off the top of my head for lieing on your back for a good few seconds helpless to a boys follow up strike.

Kinda like most of Kains teleports yet according to you thats slow, considering everyone can continually move faster than that, he wouldnt be able to, add to the fact this looks purely like cancellation of a summon, e.g. not sometihing you can do to something or someone thats not your own like Link and the fact it appeared, apprently specific to location in the middle of the floor makes me wonder if he can even use it. We also dont see Ganon do this spell, so its ambigious of cast time and such.

Its probably his final form, and he shows that he cant take falls. Not canonically I would wager, only in gameplay and as i said to scream, could be that based on the evidence his inner body is soft and so cant take falling traumer.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste

1.The Master sword is now the most powerful (active) character remaining in the canon. It's now canonically powered by all three of the goddesses of creation, and forged by a fourth Goddess, Hylia. That's SS. It's also stated as being a failsafe for the entirety of the triforce in aLttP.
2. Link usually carries a piece of the triforce in addition to that, and we're informed in Skyward Sword that Link "fights like no man or demon I've ever known.", which is impressive, considering Demise crippled a goddess so thoroughly she elected to take human form and pursue the triforce as a means to defeat him. He lost, but would have won had they fought again. He considered her a worthy foe.

So, to summarise, Link with the sword is more powerful than Hylia. /Shrug. He impales Demise with it, and as you know, fights Ganon many times later in the series.

To clarify, the sword is at least on par in scale of power with an artifact of at least planetary reality warping power.

Most of this is hype and title spam. In truth, its still just a sword with limited feats of power and a lot of this simply constitues to how long the verse is in power scale if a boys sword is beyond the Goddesses in power and said boy can get a hit on someone who can beat said goddesses, I know most here would have to try hard to even allow Link such a hit but demises fighting style is not much good.

Link doesn't just get a sword that has the power of the old god's, he has to strengthen his spirit, and his sword in the game before he can wield it. He has to gain courage, power, and wisdom throughout the game beforehand. I explains it on one of the cut scenes.
I'd also like to mention that after he gets the Master Sword, Impa tells him that the power of the old gods are flowing through his blade, and through his veins. I don't remember the exact quote, but it said it.
He also has to go through another trial to test if he has an unbreakable spirit so he'd be able to wield the full power of the Triforce. Something that was stated in game that no human, or "boy" should be able to control. Watch your mouth f*cktard. Dx

edit: That is all I'm contributing to this thread. I don't care, I'm playing hero mode at the moment. Goodbye

What a lovely rant about things completly irrelevent in combat and claims that the games own result sort of put in their place. The fact that Links spirit is in tune with the sword does not boost anyones feats anymore than Kains spirit being purfiied by the wraith blade does at the end of defiance.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
A soul is by it's nature supernatural.

I'd like to see him fighting without his body, can you show me this actually occuring, where his soul is seperated from his body, and it fights?

http://media.eventhubs.com/images/2011/07/05_onicostume.jpg

He's not bodiless but his physical form is revealed to be a useless shell. He doesn't need it to fight, nor do most SF bosses.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
No, it isn't.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameplayAndStorySegregation Tadah.

lol I think you misunderstand what I'm posting. In Fighting Games, the normal characters are not given moves that are unavoidable and unbeatable by the rest of the cast. They have to be able to fight each other, evenly. In both story and game-play. Unless of course, you are specifically stated to be above the normal cast, by in which, your attacks would be harder for the average character to deal with. Blanka and Guile are average characters in their series. Thus their peers are able to defend against their normal attacks.


Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Exactly my point, just because a character in a fighting game can do X doesn't mean it's cast can do Y to deal with it, even though in gameplay they can fight each other with either winning.

Which is my point about "normal characters" in the cast. Gouki is not a normal character, he has very few peers in his own game, going by story. Now if he (a much stronger SF) was the only character in the game with lightening attacks than your logic would apply. Blanka and Guile, weak cast members in comparison, have lightening and Sonic Boom attacks and do not win all of their fights.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Which is where there are other possibilities.

Characters may
1. Aim dodge, they see where an attack is directed and move before it's fired
2. Tank the damage through durability
3. Have defensive abilities that can be erected before the attack is set off.


1. Same could be said for Ganon. He didn't dodge lightening, he seen it coming and moved. These are fist fighters who dodge bullets and face teleport spammers on a regular basis. These lightening moves are triggered suddenly and instantly, there are no signs to predict them. You have to react when you see it.

2. Well, if the weaker cast members (characters in which Gouki could kill thousands of at once) are easily tanking lightening and Sonic Booms that slice through jets, then I'd be worried for Ganon when he has to fight Gouki, who can tank forces from foes that would decimate cities with a 1/4 of their power, on a regular basis. And then considers the strike child's play. lol

3. Only a few have that.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
ect, ect. Unless you have an actual incident of someone lightning timing, they're not a lightning timer.

Sure, you're free to continue believing that and stop when you choose. Until then, Gouki will part Ganon's body from his soul with any of his multiple Supers and Ultras that allow him to do so.

It said that the power of the old god's ran through his sword, and through his veins. Not that his spirit was attuned to his sword. Their power is in him, not just the Master sword, is what I was trying to get at.
All I meant was saying Link is just a boy is like saying Kain is just a zombie/bat hybrid. Both of which you can kill in Zelda w/o the Master Sword. See? I can troll too.

edit: and as far as the debate goes. I don't care.... have fun with that. If Gouki parted his soul from his body, wouldn't they be fight the Imprisoned One then? Just saying...

Considering I'm on Team 2, I won't have to debate until the Team 1 debate is finished.

Good thread Scream. Even though Star Arranging Gods almost scared it to death. vin

Interesting.
By avoiding them before they're fired off, or blocking them, unless you can show me someone reacting to such an attack /after/ it's been used.



See, you could say that, except that Ganon didn't avoid it, he swatted it out of the air. That is a legitimate lightning timing feat. In order to track something through the air, and strike it as it passes you, sending it back to it's source, you need to have good reaction time. In this case, a lightning bolt.

IE, Ganondorf actually has a feat, rather than speculation.


Well for one, nothing says they'd tank them 'easily', just not be one shotted. Meh. And even so, for this thread it doesn't matter, Gouki has better feats that have nothing to do with those characters.



No evidence = no ability, I'm afraid. Gouki is not a lightning timer.

Bigger kids have tried, and Gouki still needs to be able to fight deal with the twilight field and Ganon's other devious abilities. Can Gouki detect people in other dimensions? Can he strike someone who can react to lightning strikes with casuality? Ganondorf can also open up a hole in dimensions and force Gouki through with TK, trapping him between them.

Gouki very much needs his team mates.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Ganondorf can also open up a hole in dimensions and force Gouki through with TK, trapping him between them.

Lame. Allowing Battlefield Removals. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Lame. Allowing Battlefield Removals. You should be ashamed of yourself. You expect me to take away his abilities when it's three on one? :P

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
You expect me to take away his abilities when it's three on one? :P

Take away the cheap one at least! :O

And you did take time stopping from the heroes.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Take away the cheap one at least! :O

And you did take time stopping from the heroes. To be fair, there's an explanation for that. >:O

Demise has apparently conquered time, which leads me to doubt such things would work anyway.

...Especially since in WW, Ganon manages to escape Hyrule, which is frozen in time, anyway. So, he has feats concerning "**** time stoppery".

I just didn't feel like arguing it.

By conquered time, I assumed he threw his clock down and smashed it, thereby conquering time. uhuh

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
By conquered time, I assumed he threw his clock down and smashed it, thereby conquering time. uhuh Well, we don't see him do it, but we're told he conquered time and will always exist or something. And because of that, he will always return.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Interesting.

By avoiding them before they're fired off, or blocking them, unless you can show me someone reacting to such an attack /after/ it's been used.



See, you could say that, except that Ganon didn't avoid it, he swatted it out of the air. That is a legitimate lightning timing feat. In order to track something through the air, and strike it as it passes you, sending it back to it's source, you need to have good reaction time. In this case, a lightning bolt.

IE, Ganondorf actually has a feat, rather than speculation.


Well for one, nothing says they'd tank them 'easily', just not be one shotted. Meh. And even so, for this thread it doesn't matter, Gouki has better feats that have nothing to do with those characters.



No evidence = no ability, I'm afraid. Gouki is not a lightning timer.

Bigger kids have tried, and Gouki still needs to be able to fight deal with the twilight field and Ganon's other devious abilities. Can Gouki detect people in other dimensions? Can he strike someone who can react to lightning strikes with casuality? Ganondorf can also open up a hole in dimensions and force Gouki through with TK, trapping him between them.

Gouki very much needs his team mates.

Indeed.

I can not show you anything, since said characters are virtually weaklings and unimportant, their fights are never shown in detail.

Actually, you can prepare to strike something impossibly faster than you are before it's even released, if you know where it's headed. Also, if you can see someone swat lightening, then it was moving as fast as lightening. I would love to see this event you describe.

It's not speculation on my part either, it's called common sense.

Well, they do tank them easily. Blanka is hardly a threat in the SFU.

Sure, whatever pleases you.

Gouki will obliterate Ganon's soul with the force of his own sins before he has a chance to do anything. To pile on to that, so far, I haven't seen Ganon accomplish a single feat that would harm Gouki. And Again, Oni has TK and Asura Senku as well, making him intangible.

In the words of Gouki:"The Raging Demon... Its power is unequal... It is not my fists, but your past sins that will kill you... The more evil your past doings, the more painful your death..."

Why are we even debatin Akuma at this point? He's never been seen at lvls even close to his actual limits. I would assume that this thread calls for reg Akuma, and he should lose against cats usin powerful magic. His only hope would be a SSGS. Now when he goes Shin and Oni, that's another story. A tale that can't be told cuz he never needed to got to these lvls in canon and he never did.

Can't argue for or against Shin or Oni since nobody knows shit about'im. To do so is just plain ridiculous.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Maybe incapacitated is the wrong word, but I dont have one off the top of my head for lieing on your back for a good few seconds helpless to a boys follow up strike.

Dazed, perhaps? It's not like Kain can really make him fall of off anything anyway, unless Ghirahim tries the Endless Plunge again. Even then, the fight has 2 more phases you don't seem to be taking into account.



It's a little quicker than Kain's canon teleport, or at least the initial opening is. I would not say it looks like cancellation of a summon, either, mostly due to large portal in the floor. Twinrova used the same effect to capture Nabooru in the middle of the desert, so it isn't tied to location, and I don't see how a portal opening in a second leaves any doubt as to the cast time.




It also shows that he takes three of Link's "Fatal Blows" using the Master Sword to the chest without dying, and only suffering some cracks. It also shows his arms being invulnerable to Link's slashes, given that he uses him bare arms to block. I don't think he even has an inner body, either, given his...species. It might be the effort of making a barrier to stop his fall for all we know, since he doesn't seem to move much when he does that.

I'd say it's because he was heavy, and it was hard for him to get off his back. The armor surrounded his entire body.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Dazed, perhaps? It's not like Kain can really make him fall of off anything anyway, unless Ghirahim tries the Endless Plunge again. Even then, the fight has 2 more phases you don't seem to be taking into account.



It's a little quicker than Kain's canon teleport, or at least the initial opening is. I would not say it looks like cancellation of a summon, either, mostly due to large portal in the floor. Twinrova used the same effect to capture Nabooru in the middle of the desert, so it isn't tied to location, and I don't see how a portal opening in a second leaves any doubt as to the cast time.




It also shows that he takes three of Link's "Fatal Blows" using the Master Sword to the chest without dying, and only suffering some cracks. It also shows his arms being invulnerable to Link's slashes, given that he uses him bare arms to block. I don't think he even has an inner body, either, given his...species. It might be the effort of making a barrier to stop his fall for all we know, since he doesn't seem to move much when he does that.

No Kain could just TK him into the air or throw him higher than hes fallen, anyone here could do that. The two phases do not counter the earlier though.

His summoned being was defeated and he said specifcally he was banishing it, so unless you can prove he can banish anyone the same way and can create portals like that anywhere despite the appearance of the area its not much use. Not sure if its the same, you would have ot show me Twinrovas and wut? the portal opening would be after the cast time, which we dont know apprently.

Not sure how thats impressive tbh considering most here in this thread could take unlimited numbers of those strikes.

Bleh, I should be asleep.Originally posted by linkownsyousobs
I'd say it's because he was heavy, and it was hard for him to get off his back. The armor surrounded his entire body. Honestly, nah...

Link beat him all to shit with his sword, the fall has nothing to do with it. I could get beaten down with a bat, and when I git the floor it'll take me a while to get up, that has nothing to do with fall distance or being heavy, lol.

Yes, and since he was covered in armor, he was only able to drive him to the edge. You hitting him respectively didn't do much because it kept clanging off of his armor. Bleh, idc, it was just a suggestion.

A better suggestion than most so far, but I would still say hes clearly not got the durability on his inside than he does on his outside, I would get up straight away after falling a couple of meters, not sure anyone would be on the ground that long.

Originally posted by linkownsyousobs
Yes, and since he was covered in armor, he was only able to drive him to the edge. You hitting him respectively didn't do much because it kept clanging off of his armor. Bleh, idc, it was just a suggestion. Well, honestly, the hits from Link's sword would be far more dangerous than any fall anyway. Lol.

And tbh, it's entirely probably him laying there for any period of time is just to allow the player time to hit him with a fatal blow... IE, gameplay. Considering the things we seem him do in cutscenes and the scale of power shown in the game, a fall is honestly hilariously small time. :/

Shit, the imprisoned's weakest form made the entirety of the sealed grounds heave and quake just by escaping its' seal.

Originally posted by Burning thought
No Kain could just TK him into the air or throw him higher than hes fallen, anyone here could do that. The two phases do not counter the earlier though.

Unlikely given how Ghirahim actually is heavier, and being thrown higher will just give him more time to teleport. Though I'm pretty sure Ghirahim was in sword form for this thread.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pl7EnUA0PQo#t=9m35s
It's the same, it can be created anywhere, it affects other people. Twinrova's appears to be weaker, though.



Unlimited? Really, that's just being unfair. Quite a few people in this thread would be harmed pretty badly by a strike like that. Link's not in this thread, though, unfortunately.



As for this, the wave beam has shot through forcefields before, and depending on the version goes through walls and such. The barrier being semitransparent just makes it easier. Granted, she probably won't be damaging it that way.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Well, honestly, the hits from Link's sword would be far more dangerous than any fall anyway. Lol.

And tbh, it's entirely probably him laying there for any period of time is just to allow the player time to hit him with a fatal blow... IE, gameplay. Considering the things we seem him do in cutscenes and the scale of power shown in the game, a fall is honestly hilariously small time. :/

Shit, the imprisoned's weakest form made the entirety of the sealed grounds heave and quake just by escaping its' seal.

They would've if they pierced his armor... that's what the fatal blow was for.

True... all enemies lay down a few seconds after you beat the hell out of them. Probably just a mechanic.

The Imprisoned is a f*cker.... don't get me started on him, I hate it so much. Tis a ***** on Hero Mode... I almost rage quit on the 3rd fight. Dx

Originally posted by linkownsyousobs
Yes, and since he was covered in armor, he was only able to drive him to the edge. You hitting him respectively didn't do much because it kept clanging off of his armor. Bleh, idc, it was just a suggestion.

Bleh, I just noticed this... I meant repetitively.

So it seems both Sora and Samus have methods to continue to be annoying to Ganon even when separated from one another. In Sora's case, direct teleportation. Hm.

I'd say if he takes Samus down before being significantly weakened he'll take it, though. Her visors and beams kind of shiv his intangibility and invisibility which is annoying, and limits him pretty bad. Conversely, he has powerful electrical attacks at his disposal, and can pen her in with forcefields and teleport on top of her. Something I think could ruin her day in a hurry. Dante would be unable to reach her, leaving Sora as her only aid.

How do you feel those odds are? In an enclosed space, my money is on Ganon over Samus, it's a matter of how effectively he can strike at her without taking significant return fire with Sora chasing him around.

If she proves tougher to kill than Sora though, Sora could be chosen to go down first because of his sheer ability to follow Ganon around and make himself annoying, whereas Dante can be sidelined.

Hm, need some durability showings on Sora.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Unlikely given how Ghirahim actually is heavier, and being thrown higher will just give him more time to teleport. Though I'm pretty sure Ghirahim was in sword form for this thread.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pl7EnUA0PQo#t=9m35s
It's the same, it can be created anywhere, it affects other people. Twinrova's appears to be weaker, though.



Unlimited? Really, that's just being unfair. Quite a few people in this thread would be harmed pretty badly by a strike like that. Link's not in this thread, though, unfortunately.




Assuming he can teleport, he didnt seem to be able to in that form specifically otherwise why didnt he avoid falling? perhaps his reaction times are slow, which is likely.

They both seem really weak, I dont know how strong that women is but even she was able to shout to link in the time it took for the portal that was already beneath her to take her, also I assum that did not go to the gap between dimensions?

Not really, its just fact. Well I guess your speaking for Samus there, but I wouldnt say even Samus would be pierced like that.

Also I have not looked, but have you mentioned one shotting Ganon with the plasma cannon? has he got heat resistance on par with tin? I feel ike your not hardly even trying to come up with defence for Samus in this thread, hell even with my limited knowledge i could probably argue her better at the moment.

Also I like how Scream has simply assumed their all going to be trapped by forcefields, as if his forcefields are godly strong and cannot be harmed.

Originally posted by No End N Site
Now when he goes Shin and Oni, that's another story. A tale that can't be told cuz he never needed to got to these lvls in canon and he never did.


Kevin Slackie: I felt that Evil Ryu and Oni broke everything vanilla and Super had set up story wise. Are they a part of the story canonically?

Seth Killian: The core Street Fighter games are in fact canon, so yeah you gotta sort it out cause their there
http://shoryuken.com/2011/10/12/kevin-slackie-interviews-seth-killian/

Both Oni and Shin Evil Ryu ACTUALLY HAPPENED in SFIV.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Assuming he can teleport, he didnt seem to be able to in that form specifically otherwise why didnt he avoid falling? perhaps his reaction times are slow, which is likely.

Next time watch the whole fight, he teleports in his second and third phases. When you start making conclusions based on "why didn't X do Y?", you're going to a bad place. For instance, I could conclude that Kain's reactions are slow because he didn't mist form or teleport before Raziel could tag him, see? Besides, Ghirahim already dodged one of Link's attacks by teleporting in his untransformed states, and another by jumping, and he blocks nearly all of Link's attacks in all three forms, whether with swords or his arms.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGnM-_mAeHc#t=19m55s (Here's your teleport, BTW)

Hmm. Actually, I wonder how Ghirahim throwing Tornados around will change this fight...




Nah, she just got sent to be brainwashed and turned into an Iron Knuckle. Basically they just mind controlled her, put her in some ridiculously heavy armor, and gave an axe so she could smash stone pillars with it.



Oh no, not Samus, though it might damage her. She still couldn't take "unlimited" strikes. More along the lines of Sora and War who might be disabled, Dante might be dazed for a bit, and Kain would certainly feel it. Still Ghirahim taking it is impressive, even if his big glowing weak point isn't as tough as the rest of him.




Ganondorf tanked fire from a dragon spirit that incinerated most of a ship. In that same spirit's words, "Ganon cannot be defeated by such simple means as wrath and fire." So actually Ganondorf has quite good heat resistance, much better than, say, Kain. Hence why I'm choosing to focus on the Light Beam, which is much more likely to harm GanonDemise than plasma is, as well as the possibility of the electrical Wave Beam that could achieve a stun. Adding in the castle durability from Twilight Princess, this guy is pretty tough to hurt.



A known castle buster (Midna) just barely managed to bring one down, exhausting herself in the process, and Link with the Golden Gauntlets throwing a pillar at one failed to break it, instead breaking the pillar. They are pretty godly, but Samus has the means to bypass them with her weapons so it's all good.



Samus does a lot of fighting in enclosed spaces, and getting into melee leads one into encounters with Screw Attacks and Power Bombs, which I imagine are unpleasant. If her mobility is limited, I'd recommend the Morph Ball for smaller size and unpredictability.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Next time watch the whole fight, he teleports in his second and third phases. When you start making conclusions based on "why didn't X do Y?", you're going to a bad place. For instance, I could conclude that Kain's reactions are slow because he didn't mist form or teleport before Raziel could tag him, see? Besides, Ghirahim already dodged one of Link's attacks by teleporting in his untransformed states, and another by jumping, and he blocks nearly all of Link's attacks in all three forms, whether with swords or his arms.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGnM-_mAeHc#t=19m55s (Here's your teleport, BTW)

Hmm. Actually, I wonder how Ghirahim throwing Tornados around will change this fight...




Nah, she just got sent to be brainwashed and turned into an Iron Knuckle. Basically they just mind controlled her, put her in some ridiculously heavy armor, and gave an axe so she could smash stone pillars with it.



Oh no, not Samus, though it might damage her. She still couldn't take "unlimited" strikes. More along the lines of Sora and War who might be disabled, Dante might be dazed for a bit, and Kain would certainly feel it. Still Ghirahim taking it is impressive, even if his big glowing weak point isn't as tough as the rest of him.




Ganondorf tanked fire from a dragon spirit that incinerated most of a ship. In that same spirit's words, "Ganon cannot be defeated by such simple means as wrath and fire." So actually Ganondorf has quite good heat resistance, much better than, say, Kain. Hence why I'm choosing to focus on the Light Beam, which is much more likely to harm GanonDemise than plasma is, as well as the possibility of the electrical Wave Beam that could achieve a stun. Adding in the castle durability from Twilight Princess, this guy is pretty tough to hurt.



A known castle buster (Midna) just barely managed to bring one down, exhausting herself in the process, and Link with the Golden Gauntlets throwing a pillar at one failed to break it, instead breaking the pillar. They are pretty godly, but Samus has the means to bypass them with her weapons so it's all good.



Samus does a lot of fighting in enclosed spaces, and getting into melee leads one into encounters with Screw Attacks and Power Bombs, which I imagine are unpleasant. If her mobility is limited, I'd recommend the Morph Ball for smaller size and unpredictability.

Fair enough but still, it seems suspect. And tornados, depends on how strong they are.

I like how only the characters you like get a more positive word. Well no, not really. He got impaled, true he got back up but so would most here as I said, infact several here wouldnt even be pierced.

So fire is the same as melting metal quickly? no, no its not....you see, your bias, burning up a ship is not the same as melting metal at any speed. Its funny how you say hes tough to hurt on a castle feat but someone who can take millions times the force to smash a castle in a square mm of his chest, your willing to debate far more against.

Cna you show me some of these forcefields and their power, and more importantly Ganon making them.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Fair enough but still, it seems suspect. And tornados, depends on how strong they are.

Depends on how well they fly, it's likely to throw everyone everywhere.



Quite a few would still be injured by a 30 tonner (I got the weight of the metal block, btw) shoving a sword into their chests. That would pierce quite a few of them.



I think you're missing the point here. Ganondorf has fire resistance, but a weakness to light based and holy weapons. The Light Beam has exactly the same feats of incinerating creatures that the plasma beam does, and it's a weakness, so it's a much more effective weapon against Ganondorf than something he would have resistance to. Any particular reason you're arguing that Ganondorf, who has fire resistance, would be hurt by the plasma beam but at the same time claiming that Kain, who has a vulnerability to fire, would not be hurt? It's also funny how the thing that busted the castle was a spear (i.e: sharp point) wielded by a much stronger character than Raziel hitting Ganon and that the explosion was purely collateral damage. Really, if you're trying to suggest that Raziel could replicate any of Midna's feats, you're going to need better evidence.



Sure thing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMG6chL_YrI#t=5m5s (Link throws the infamous pillar into one of Ganondorf's forcefields. The pillar breaks.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI0k71V57Ko (You've seen it a million times, but here's Midna breaking the barrier around Hyrule Castle and exhausting herself.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXeJdB9_-zQ#t=4m (This is the above barrier being formed.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj6vXjrZmfw#t=4m (Sidelining Midna)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx0Yfg6EasQ#t=32s (Sidelining Zelda)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFHT4Y6-UMk#t=46s (Fire barrier because why not.)

I noticed Scream wants durability feats for Sora. It's been ages since I've played KH but I mostly remember Sora falling a lot. He fell from space once I believe. Didn't really seem to affect him. That a good one?

Ah, never mind. He did say ouch my head.

B4UGZEjG02s

Edit: Wrong thread, but I'll leave that there...

Originally posted by The Scenario
Depends on how well they fly, it's likely to throw everyone everywhere.



Quite a few would still be injured by a 30 tonner (I got the weight of the metal block, btw) shoving a sword into their chests. That would pierce quite a few of them.



I think you're missing the point here. Ganondorf has fire resistance, but a weakness to light based and holy weapons. The Light Beam has exactly the same feats of incinerating creatures that the plasma beam does, and it's a weakness, so it's a much more effective weapon against Ganondorf than something he would have resistance to. Any particular reason you're arguing that Ganondorf, who has fire resistance, would be hurt by the plasma beam but at the same time claiming that Kain, who has a vulnerability to fire, would not be hurt? It's also funny how the thing that busted the castle was a spear (i.e: sharp point) wielded by a much stronger character than Raziel hitting Ganon and that the explosion was purely collateral damage. Really, if you're trying to suggest that Raziel could replicate any of Midna's feats, you're going to need better evidence.



Sure thing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMG6chL_YrI#t=5m5s (Link throws the infamous pillar into one of Ganondorf's forcefields. The pillar breaks.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI0k71V57Ko (You've seen it a million times, but here's Midna breaking the barrier around Hyrule Castle and exhausting herself.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXeJdB9_-zQ#t=4m (This is the above barrier being formed.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj6vXjrZmfw#t=4m (Sidelining Midna)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx0Yfg6EasQ#t=32s (Sidelining Zelda)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFHT4Y6-UMk#t=46s (Fire barrier because why not.)

I would like to see your math for this 30 tons, it sounds like extrapolation.

Kains more durable, and Midna never bust a castle through force, not that force would work like that and Ganon was not in any of his physical regular forms, theres also no strength feat I have seen for Midna picking up anything alike to Raziels.

Do we know all those forcefields are made by Ganon or how long it takes to make them? Also a pillar has little to no durabity. Barriers completly different to the last one and thats not physical, it shattered like glass btw. So far the only forcefields we see made are featless ones to cut off the Arena Link fights Ganon in.

I really should stop and take a moment to illustrate just how impressive this is.

http://www.ohgizmo.com/2008/02/01/navy-test-fires-10-megajoule-railgun-holy-cow/

Double digit megajoules... Yep. Ten is enough to fire a slug clean through a tank. (Actually, nine... With a two kg projectile http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railgun )

The impact from a projectile fired from a 64 MJ version of the cannon is expected to surpass a tomahawk missile in destructive capability.

That pillar is in the gigajoule range, and pointed. haermm Thanks for reminding me of that feat, Scenario. Ah lawdy. That Ganondorf guy.

Hm, officially, where is your money on fight two, Scen?

@Aura
Also, thanks Aura. I'm actually surprised, I figured Sora must have a better durability feat than falling at terminal velocity? Are you sure? Because that kind of allows Ganon or Ghirahim to one-shot him. :/

@Everywun, but mostly Scenario
Which reminds me: Strategeh! Ghirahim in "I'm made of mother****ing Nintendium" form holds off Sora while Ganon takes the fight to Samus ftw?

I'd argue TK is Ganondorf's answer to a screw attack, and that he can probably defend himself from the light beam, but maybe not. I base that on him defending himself from the light arrows on occasion. With Sora distracting him in a scenario mirroring the end of Wind Waker, I could see the light beam certainly being problematic depending how destructive it is. Do you feel it stacks up to Link's magic arrows?

Beam stacking probably allows Samus to mix the light beam with her "haha, I can shoot through things !" wavebeam, huh? Though, MP2 didn't use beam stacking, but it came back in three. /Shrug We could call that a maybe?

I /do/ believe, to be blunt, that one to one, Samus would lose to Ganondorf. I suppose that much is obvious seeing as I made this thread, lol. But hey, we'll see, right?

Sora is teh fragile speedster/lightning bruiser I guess.

It has been ages since I looked at Sora's feats. He probably has some better ones.

Anywho, he is a teleporter with Hercule's strength. Should still be a threat either way.

Not sure about gigajoule but its a huge lump of rock not moving at high speed unlike the railguns so I dont know how they were relevent, all that proves is that the granite can take less force than the barrier. Also I have never seen Ganon with good reaction times so the above makes Sora more than a threat.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I would like to see your math for this 30 tons, it sounds like extrapolation.

5ft*5ft*5ft=125ft^3
125*490 (iron)=61250lbs
61250/2000=30tons.



You mean when Midna used a spear to slam into Ganon she wasn't using any force? She blew up the castle, that's thousands of tons tossed up in the air as a side effect. That's much, much better than anything Raziel has ever done, and quite frankly I'm surprised you'd even compare them.



Yes, as it's in Ganon's castle and you need to bring down Ganon's barrier to into Ganon's tower so you can fight Ganon. The pillar is a giant block of granite, that slamming into the shield gives the barrier massive durability. Glass is physical...what are you saying here? It exhausted Midna to break that one, and it's the same type he used during the fights.



I think Samus could escape TK with a good Space Jump if she needs to. I expect the Light Beam can harm him to some degree precisely because the Light Arrows can stun or harm him. The Light Beam has some feats of disintegration, here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5AwbsRHSC0#t=40s
It'll one shot weaker enemies, but Ing take a few.



I'm going to have to go with no, but you know. It'd be better if we went with ones we know can stack.

I dunno about one on one, to be honest.

Originally posted by The Scenario
5ft*5ft*5ft=125ft^3
125*490 (iron)=61250lbs
61250/2000=30tons.



You mean when Midna used a spear to slam into Ganon she wasn't using any force? She blew up the castle, that's thousands of tons tossed up in the air as a side effect. That's much, much better than anything Raziel has ever done, and quite frankly I'm surprised you'd even compare them.



Yes, as it's in Ganon's castle and you need to bring down Ganon's barrier to into Ganon's tower so you can fight Ganon. The pillar is a giant block of granite, that slamming into the shield gives the barrier massive durability. Glass is physical...what are you saying here? It exhausted Midna to break that one, and it's the same type he used during the fights.




I like how your mathing it as a solid cube and 5ft? how old is Link in this game? because if its a young link, mathing it compared to him as 6ft which is lulz worthy anyway is going to give wrong numbers.

Also can you quote where you showed the block, not sure it was in the thread, I cant find it.

She didnt slam into anyone, we dont see that and I would like your reasoning how you can slam into a disembodied head, if anything she hardly moved, ive seen her hands move at speed, the ones holding the spear and grasp/smash into Zant with greater force and he barely moved nor did the environment around him, he just died so I argue little physical force and more magic. And no, not exactly thousands of tons and your claiming its midna, I still stand by Ganon as the culprit and magic, not force.

That barrier looks completly different to some of the others I have seen him make, show me him making one alike to that on the fly. Well no, as I said the barrier shattered the granite, proving it can simply take the force of granite being tossed a few meters/second, thats not massive in any respect.

THERE IS SO MUCH WRONGNESS HERE.

1. You're right, it's more.
2. We never see Ganondorf attack, unlike, y'know, Midna, thnx 4 all ur ass-umpchunz.
3. Occam's razor.
4. How do you blow up a ****ing castle without force? That is some ****ing oddly specific magic.

So to summarise, in a single sentence you're assuming, misattributing, fabricating, denying, being wrong about physics, and downplaying. ALL AT ONCE.

Impressive.

Edit:

And worse, you're derailing and sidetracking my thread, killing the actual debate. It's any wonder the forum is so dead, no one can get an actual discussion going with you crusading against everything that's not Kain.

Shoo. Keep this up and I'll report you for dickheadery.

Geez Scream. Calm down bro. o.O

Has the fight with Team 1 been decided on yet?

Originally posted by Burning thought
I like how your mathing it as a solid cube and 5ft? how old is Link in this game? because if its a young link, mathing it compared to him as 6ft which is lulz worthy anyway is going to give wrong numbers.

I like how I mathed it, too, because it is a solid block and 5ft is a fine estimation given that it's actually a bit larger. Did you miss that this Link was supposed to be one of the oldest in the series, actually an adult this time around?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4wLR0TNPiI



If you're saying that Midna didn't physically slam her body into anyone, you're right. If, on the other hand, you're saying that Midna didn't slam her spear into anyone, you're sorely mistaken. Magic can produce physical force, not sure why you'd think otherwise. The evidence shows Midna, and yes it was magic but if you think that means there isn't force you're still wrong. It's a magic weapon that rather obviously produced enough force to blow up a castle.



Which barrier? All the yellow twilighty ones are the same and I've shown them all going up in similar timeframes. The barrier taking and breaking the granite is actually quite impressive given the amount of force Link was exerting there, you can downplay it if you want but it's still better than anything Kain could do.

Originally posted by Frisky Dingo
http://shoryuken.com/2011/10/12/kevin-slackie-interviews-seth-killian/

Both Oni and Shin Evil Ryu ACTUALLY HAPPENED in SFIV.

Now see, this is just stupid. Not only does it make very lil sense for current cannon, it f**ks up what was previously established. And people wonder why I don't pay attention to the "story" anymore.

Originally posted by The Scenario
I like how I mathed it, too, because it is a solid block and 5ft is a fine estimation given that it's actually a bit larger. Did you miss that this Link was supposed to be one of the oldest in the series, actually an adult this time around?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4wLR0TNPiI



If you're saying that Midna didn't physically slam her body into anyone, you're right. If, on the other hand, you're saying that Midna didn't slam her spear into anyone, you're sorely mistaken. Magic can produce physical force, not sure why you'd think otherwise. The evidence shows Midna, and yes it was magic but if you think that means there isn't force you're still wrong. It's a magic weapon that rather obviously produced enough force to blow up a castle.



Which barrier? All the yellow twilighty ones are the same and I've shown them all going up in similar timeframes. The barrier taking and breaking the granite is actually quite impressive given the amount of force Link was exerting there, you can downplay it if you want but it's still better than anything Kain could do.

Ah ok, its hollow. See the nails holding it together? you dont use nails to hold together a solid block of metal.

Just claims of "your wrong", you did no better than scream here.

Kain could slice it apart based on feats and comparison although thats besides the point, the fact is, their not the same. That shadowy looking thing that takes the pillar is unique to the brighter ones used against midna.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
THERE IS SO MUCH WRONGNESS HERE.

1. You're right, it's more.
2. We never see Ganondorf attack, unlike, y'know, Midna, thnx 4 all ur ass-umpchunz.
3. Occam's razor.
4. How do you blow up a ****ing castle without force? That is some ****ing oddly specific magic.

So to summarise, in a single sentence you're assuming, misattributing, fabricating, denying, being wrong about physics, and downplaying. ALL AT ONCE.

Impressive.

Edit:

And worse, you're derailing and sidetracking my thread, killing the actual debate. It's any wonder the forum is so dead, no one can get an actual discussion going with you crusading against everything that's not Kain.

Shoo. Keep this up and I'll report you for dickheadery.

I dont really have to reply to this angry little rant, other than "reported".

Originally posted by Burning thought
Ah ok, its hollow. See the nails holding it together? you dont use nails to hold together a solid block of metal.

Only if you assume that they're nails when this is not necessarily true. Nor is it a given that a solid block would not have nails.



In which case, are you going to respond or just dismiss it?



Please be more specific, it's hard to tell it "it" is the Ganon's Tower (GT) barrier or the Hyrule Castle (HC) barrier when you're that vague. What is the shadowy thing? There's no real difference between the barrier around HC and the ones Ganondorf uses during his boss fights.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Only if you assume that they're nails when this is not necessarily true. Nor is it a given that a solid block would not have nails.



In which case, are you going to respond or just dismiss it?



Please be more specific, it's hard to tell it "it" is the Ganon's Tower (GT) barrier or the Hyrule Castle (HC) barrier when you're that vague. What is the shadowy thing? There's no real difference between the barrier around HC and the ones Ganondorf uses during his boss fights.

What could possibly look like that? reach all you like.

Dismiss it, I cant reply to "your wrong", its not an argument tbh.

The dark barrier Links pillar hits is different to those in TP.

TP is different stylistically. Ganon's Barriers look different in every game because the art style is different in every game. But if you played the games you'd know this.

Reporting you for trolling.

Originally posted by Burning thought
What could possibly look like that? reach all you like.

It's a few circles on a metal block, what doesn't it look like?



So did you just stop reading when I said that or what? There were more words there.



That is true. Why is that relevant, though?

Originally posted by The Scenario
It's a few circles on a metal block, what doesn't it look like?



So did you just stop reading when I said that or what? There were more words there.



That is true. Why is that relevant, though?

It doesnt look like solid metal. It looks like a line of nails holding what looks exactly like a "heavy" cargo crate.

Thats pretty much all you said in no uncertain terms.


You used a feat for an irrelevent barrier then showed evidence for Ganon making a diffrent barrier as if their comparable or relevent.

BT, Scream, stop baiting each other. And don't even whine, BT, you do it just as much as he does.

Stay on topic and knock off the trolling and derailing.

Originally posted by Burning thought
It doesnt look like solid metal. It looks like a line of nails holding what looks exactly like a "heavy" cargo crate.


But it does look like heavy metal, nor does it really look like a crate. The circles appear more like a stylistic choice to me.





That's more than just two words.



I don't recall saying they were comparable. I'm just comparing the Hyrule Castle barrier and the ones used to sideline Midna and Zelda.

Originally posted by The Scenario
But it does look like heavy metal, nor does it really look like a crate. The circles appear more like a stylistic choice to me.





That's more than just two words.



I don't recall saying they were comparable. I'm just comparing the Hyrule Castle barrier and the ones used to sideline Midna and Zelda.

Well since its me your convincing, stylisic choice? right...

It could have been said in two words though, "sorely mistaken", "wrong", theres no real argument there, evidence etc.

So the only relevent once is those that can sideline, which has no feats of strength.

Originally posted by Peach
BT, Scream, stop baiting each other. And don't even whine, BT, you do it just as much as he does.

Stay on topic and knock off the trolling and derailing.

I dont imply or call anyone dickheads though which is more than baiting imo but w/e...

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Geez Scream. Calm down bro. o.O

Has the fight with Team 1 been decided on yet? Mostly, I think. I'd like to debate fight 2, anyway. Lol.

Hm, here's where the argument of her propulsion v.s. the power of his TK comes in. The reason I felt his TK could counter her screw attack is simply that I just honestly feel like his TK pushes harder. She comes at him, he can shove her back, possibly hold her down or with her back to a wall (or barrier). Let's not forget he's supported his entire castle, as well as brought it down. Would she be strong enough to aim her arm-cannon at him despite his TK? Or is there an effect to space jump-ness that would let her get around the TK?


And yeah, I can see a similar interaction between the light beam and Ganon to how the light arrows work on him. He should be able to defend himself from them, but can probably be made vulnerable to harm by them, as well.

Also, how does Samus' suit interact with Electricity? I seem to remember those atom-looking-enemies-whose-names-I-forget in Metroid Prime making her visor static and the like. Would a lightning Bolt hinder her temporarily, you think?

Theres been no evidence to suggest Ganon was using TK on his castle at any point, certainly not to hold it up. Magic and the like is a better suggestion, not sure I have seen much TK from him, unless you were to use Zants Tk as a "gauge". That said, i dont think jumping does anything against TK unless her jump held more force in it than the TK user.

Freeze rays and light beams could probably finish Ganon off though, or melt him with the heat based weapons. Although this electricity weakness sounds new, thats not been mentioned yet.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Theres been no evidence to suggest Ganon was using TK on his castle at any point, certainly not to hold it up. Magic and the like is a better suggestion, not sure I have seen much TK from him, unless you were to use Zants Tk as a "gauge". That said, i dont think jumping does anything against TK unless her jump held more force in it than the TK user.

Freeze rays and light beams could probably finish Ganon off though, or melt him with the heat based weapons. Although this electricity weakness sounds new, thats not been mentioned yet.

Ganon used magic to levitate his castle, IE, he moved it without touching it, IE, funcrionally indistinguishable and TK is perfect shorthand, thankz 4 ur semantics.

Strange you'd claim they would be effective against Ganon when you can't seem to accept they'd be effective against Kain. See, where Kain's got no resistance to the plasma or ice beams, Ganon cannot be harmed by the fire or ice arrows which respectively freeze a volcano and end a really hax blizzard blizzard.

You can't have it both ways.

Oh, and there is no lightning weakness. It's the same as hitting Ganon with his own power's ever been, his own magic packs enough punch to stun him.

I'm gonna have to say that Samus > Ganondorf, if only she had the Master Arm Cannon.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Ganon used magic to levitate his castle, IE, he moved it without touching it, IE, funcrionally indistinguishable and TK is perfect shorthand, thankz 4 ur semantics.

Strange you'd claim they would be effective against Ganon when you can't seem to accept they'd be effective against Kain. See, where Kain's got no resistance to the plasma or ice beams, Ganon cannot be harmed by the fire or ice arrows which respectively freeze a volcano and end a really hax blizzard blizzard.

You can't have it both ways.

Oh, and there is no lightning weakness. It's the same as hitting Ganon with his own power's ever been, his own magic packs enough punch to stun him.

Its quite important because your using quick manipulations of telekinetic force and comparing it to magic as if you can use the strength to lift castles interchangably with TK powers.

Ganons not Kain and I dont recall him ever canonically hit by those things, I assume your just using in-game health values or something.

You misunderstand, I was refering to your weakness of Samus to those electric things however using "Ganons own powers" is not founded here, its just lightning, possibly no more effective than regular kind that humans can survive but it seems Ganon or "demise" can take a nasty shock as well.

I'm not sure what you're arguing here. He moved the castle without touching it. He can move smaller things without touching them.

Health values nothing, they just cannot harm him at all.

This is possibly an inconsistency, to be honest. The Prime series was done by a different studio than has done the other games.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
I'm not sure what you're arguing here. He moved the castle without touching it. He can move smaller things without touching them.

Health values nothing, they just cannot harm him at all.

This is possibly an inconsistency, to be honest. The Prime series was done by a different studio than has done the other games.

Do we actually see this? and I am argueing your using what was magic on the Castle that your claiming as TK, if its magic then it may have more to it than what your claiming and may not be used like TK.

Technically a health value, thats mostly what a boss character is in a gameplay standoff. Most bosses in games need special ways to defeat them so trying to use the fact not all weapons or abilities work is like trying to use a consistent gameplay mechanic.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Well since its me your convincing, stylisic choice? right...

It's just that it doesn't make any sense as a crate. What's in it? Given the thickness of each side, we're looking at something that's still around 20 ish tons being used to hold an object significantly smaller than a human. There does not not appear to be any real way to open the thing, and again those walls weigh a few tons by themselves and you're expecting nails to hold it together easily? Really, the Zelda series has had puzzle blocks forever; this one is just metal.



Then how about you prove your assertion than blowing up a castle uses no physical force? Or the assertion that magic produces no physical force? Instead of complaining about me saying that you're wrong, why don't you just prove yourself right? Otherwise we're going in circles.



The ones used to sideline and the one Midna broke are the same type. We know it takes around castle busting force to break one, and not many people here can do that.



Ok, this is just bugging me. Why are you saying that Ganondorf, the guy with known fire resistance, could be melted by heat based weapons while also saying that Kain, the guy with a known vulnerability to fire, could not? It doesn't make sense to me that in one thread you imply that the Plasma beam is incredibly powerful while in another you say it's no better than normal fire. Which is it?




I don't know if Space Jump is strong enough to resist direct TK manipulation at that strength, but it could cancel a throw or something. If he's targeting her arm specifically, probably not, but if it's just a general hold I'd say she could still shoot him. That or go into Morph Ball and set off a few bombs or power bombs. What I'm really curious about, though, is the Gravity Suit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTl9zTAa0MM#t=12m47s

It's basically Freedom of Movement in suit form. She can't be slowed down by water, lava, gravity effects or, according to the above video, air pressure and vacuum effects. Whether that extends to psychic effects or has yet to be seen. (I doubt it.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O665SBoJOto#t=5m17s

Also, the Morph Ball has anti-tentacle properties which make it difficult to grab.



Bombu, and all they really do is the visor static for a split second. Samus doesn't have any weakness to electricity damage wise, and even an EMP can only mess up the visor for a moment. Best case for Ganon would be some damage and Samus losing her auto-target.

Originally posted by The Scenario
It's just that it doesn't make any sense as a crate. What's in it? Given the thickness of each side, we're looking at something that's still around 20 ish tons being used to hold an object significantly smaller than a human. There does not not appear to be any real way to open the thing, and again those walls weigh a few tons by themselves and you're expecting nails to hold it together easily? Really, the Zelda series has had puzzle blocks forever; this one is just metal.



Then how about you prove your assertion than blowing up a castle uses no physical force? Or the assertion that magic produces no physical force? Instead of complaining about me saying that you're wrong, why don't you just prove yourself right? Otherwise we're going in circles.



The ones used to sideline and the one Midna broke are the same type. We know it takes around castle busting force to break one, and not many people here can do that.



Ok, this is just bugging me. Why are you saying that Ganondorf, the guy with known fire resistance, could be melted by heat based weapons while also saying that Kain, the guy with a known vulnerability to fire, could not? It doesn't make sense to me that in one thread you imply that the Plasma beam is incredibly powerful while in another you say it's no better than normal fire. Which is it?




I don't know if Space Jump is strong enough to resist direct TK manipulation at that strength, but it could cancel a throw or something. If he's targeting her arm specifically, probably not, but if it's just a general hold I'd say she could still shoot him. That or go into Morph Ball and set off a few bombs or power bombs. What I'm really curious about, though, is the Gravity Suit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTl9zTAa0MM#t=12m47s

It's basically Freedom of Movement in suit form. She can't be slowed down by water, lava, gravity effects or, according to the above video, air pressure and vacuum effects. Whether that extends to psychic effects or has yet to be seen. (I doubt it.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O665SBoJOto#t=5m17s

Also, the Morph Ball has anti-tentacle properties which make it difficult to grab.



Bombu, and all they really do is the visor static for a split second. Samus doesn't have any weakness to electricity damage wise, and even an EMP can only mess up the visor for a moment. Best case for Ganon would be some damage and Samus losing her auto-target.

Well thats what it is, and who cares whats in it? Kain moves crates in Blood omen 2 as well, I never claimed they were solid, a metal crate is hardly a ton, I think your guestimates are getting a bit ahead of you.

Its your claim and argument hinged on what you belive Midna did, I dont care what did it, but you cant prove what did which is important for you. Although I think I have shown tne lightning bolt in the top of the castle before it explodes before.

No their not, their a simliar colour I give you, maybe the same energy but thats like saying a piece of steel as long as its steel is exactly the same no matter what its used in. Theres size and thickness to consider for one, nor do you know how much power is put into one when their ambigious like this, you dont have much to go on.

Because I still belive Raziels friction on his claws is more than enough, and Kains general resistance to things that require breaking of his body is beyond the plasma beams, your breaking apart particles either way. Tbh, I am simply pointing out that regardless of my stance on kain, your stance is completly different here just because he had one dragon breathe fire on him.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Well thats what it is, and who cares whats in it? Kain moves crates in Blood omen 2 as well, I never claimed they were solid, a metal crate is hardly a ton, I think your guestimates are getting a bit ahead of you.

Not really a guesstimate given the calc for its solid weight. Point being it isn't a crate so I don't see any reason to math it as one.



It's supported by the evidence, though. Midna was using a weapon and was seen to attack, and the castle exploded immediately afterward. Ganon isn't shown to attack at all, ruling him out as a culprit. It had to be Midna by the way the scene played out, you can't just suggest an alternate scenario and demand I prove it's impossible.



Like how you just assume anything stone is made of granite for all calcs and it's all exactly the same? We're talking about magical barriers made by the same guy here, and there's nothing preventing him from just putting up another castle sized one or one similar to it. We know Ganondorf can do both, why does this matter?



You haven't proven that Raziel's claws produced any heat whatsoever or given anything to suggest that friction would produce that much heat. Further, you're equating claw resistance to heat resistance based on nothing, and again haven't given any reason to believe it's superior to the plasma beam. All you're doing is making claims without backing them up and saying that's enough. Unlike Kain, Ganondorf has actual fire resistance in addition to castle level durability. If the Plasma beam can hurt him, it would destroy Kain.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Not really a guesstimate given the calc for its solid weight. Point being it isn't a crate so I don't see any reason to math it as one.



It's supported by the evidence, though. Midna was using a weapon and was seen to attack, and the castle exploded immediately afterward. Ganon isn't shown to attack at all, ruling him out as a culprit. It had to be Midna by the way the scene played out, you can't just suggest an alternate scenario and demand I prove it's impossible.



Like how you just assume anything stone is made of granite for all calcs and it's all exactly the same? We're talking about magical barriers made by the same guy here, and there's nothing preventing him from just putting up another castle sized one or one similar to it. We know Ganondorf can do both, why does this matter?



You haven't proven that Raziel's claws produced any heat whatsoever or given anything to suggest that friction would produce that much heat. Further, you're equating claw resistance to heat resistance based on nothing, and again haven't given any reason to believe it's superior to the plasma beam. All you're doing is making claims without backing them up and saying that's enough. Unlike Kain, Ganondorf has actual fire resistance in addition to castle level durability. If the Plasma beam can hurt him, it would destroy Kain.

Theres no immediatly shown, the only immediate thing is a low growl, no sound concerning an exploding castle unless Ganons growl drowned it out. On the contary, a blast of yellow energy, remincient of what Ganon often uses, as well as iirc a lightning bolt (also known from Ganon). I like how you dont like my claim here yet apprently you can make up doubts from nothing, not even have a counter argument liek I do and yet I have to apprently prove something against your alternate scenario.

Its not just me who does that, its everyone because we know granite is an average building material, its better than mathing it as the lightest stone nobody would use for contruction or a heavy metal. It matters because we dont know if he can just "do it" just as easily. We dont see him do anything other than the small barriers, and even the "castle sized" one has no feats, only the fact it was destroyed.

Again, I dont have to prove a scientific process exists, I think science did that for me already, and although its true I need to find a specific calculation, I am fairly cetrtain its above the melting point of skin itself and ive yet to see you prove your claims. Fire reisstance is irrelevent, fire burns nowhere near as hot as energy that can melt tin and Ganon does not have caslte resistance, wut? if your claiming Ganons going to be in his disembodied growling head form for the most of this fight then the beam will likely just go through it harmlessly anyway although I was of the opinion Ganon would choose his more consistent and more powerful forms.

Seriously Scream, spite thread? Anyone who's bothered to read the OP knows that the orchestra wins no matter what





KAY! Dunno who Kharne, an Farseer or that avatar is yet... so sod 'em for now. Pretty much only gonna argue if for Sora and Dante later on.


War's gone... the guys not even as strong as he appears. Even Mercer and Sonic are stronger than him. Akuma with his massive strength has a good chance of getting critical hits on Demise, though I can see him getting struck down with Demmy's blade or magic. Was said in this thread what magiks he's use but its 6 pages long so.. meh.
On the other hand Kharne is from the WH40k verse so he could be anything from building to planet buster for all I know.

Akuma and maybe Khane can figure out a way to break him down and best his powers. /shrugs



Vecna doesn't exist and Farseer's from the WH40K verse too, so... moving on to Kain. Having GG strength means he comes out on top by a fair amount, so Kain wont want to get into physical conflict. The only powers I recall from Kain that'd be helpful are Blood Slurp and Charm. Charms limits would be its downfall here and Im not really sure how his Blood power will be.

As the other two dont exist it all rests on whether Kain's special powers and avoiding techniques.



Samus has been nicely covered as having a good shot at damaging him.
With Sora's strength and speed he can best Demise in combat, plus he strikes with powerful light magic (Blade charge). He /is/ more a lightning bruiser as his durability isnt as amazing iirc, though his spells do aid on that. Namely Reflect and, going FF style here, Cure which can be used to heal his allies <- Great resource. Drive form Sora >
More so than Sora, Dante too can best Demise in combat with his superior speed and strength. If necessary his DT armour should cover him from Dem's physical blows with his regen healing him from anything that land. Two things to note for things Ive seen here; He /can/ teleport with his Air Trick and has lightning attacks/infused weapons.

All three have ways of beating Demise.





Urg, forgetting tons of what Ganon can do so counter posts will be great. And note, as of now I got no ****ing clue how much stronger he'd be due to fighting Hylia or how that could used here.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Theres no immediatly shown, the only immediate thing is a low growl, no sound concerning an exploding castle unless Ganons growl drowned it out. On the contary, a blast of yellow energy, remincient of what Ganon often uses, as well as iirc a lightning bolt (also known from Ganon). I like how you dont like my claim here yet apprently you can make up doubts from nothing, not even have a counter argument liek I do and yet I have to apprently prove something against your alternate scenario.

Ganon was shown before the attack doing nothing, and the screen faded out there. The growl does not indicate much, and would more likely mean he wasn't doing anything. It seems to be in pain from Midna's attack, even. The Fused Shadows also use yellow energy, so no indication there, same with the light as both have been before when Midna destroyed the barrier. So really, all the evidence still points to Midna's spear destroying the castle.



We have seen Ganon raise both in the same time frame with the same ease, and they even look the same. The castle one took a known castle buster to break, and even that took some time. It's a good feat for both.



I'm not asking you prove a scientific process, where did you even get the idea that I was? I just want you to prove that Raziel produces heat with his claws, and then to prove it's enough heat for fire resistance. Otherwise you're just endlessly repeating an unsupported claim. I know what friction is, obviously, you just have no evidence to support you here.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Ganon was shown before the attack doing nothing, and the screen faded out there. The growl does not indicate much, and would more likely mean he wasn't doing anything. It seems to be in pain from Midna's attack, even. The Fused Shadows also use yellow energy, so no indication there, same with the light as both have been before when Midna destroyed the barrier. So really, all the evidence still points to Midna's spear destroying the castle.



We have seen Ganon raise both in the same time frame with the same ease, and they even look the same. The castle one took a known castle buster to break, and even that took some time. It's a good feat for both.



I'm not asking you prove a scientific process, where did you even get the idea that I was? I just want you to prove that Raziel produces heat with his claws, and then to prove it's enough heat for fire resistance. Otherwise you're just endlessly repeating an unsupported claim. I know what friction is, obviously, you just have no evidence to support you here.

The growl however is the only immediate thing after the thrust, if anything I would say it means the thrust did little to nothing, if it had busted the castle the explosion would drown out a low growl. Not in this instance though, lightning similiar to Ganons is evident, your now making up assumptions on how the energy filled the castle.

No we have not, we have seen one raise quickly with Ganon on screen, so we know he did it easily but the other? not so much. The castle one proved that Midna was enough, not that any less would not be sufficient, thats a feat for one of the shields.

If you know what friction is then you know Raziel slashing across a surface is going to produce some.

Originally posted by Burning thought
The growl however is the only immediate thing after the thrust, if anything I would say it means the thrust did little to nothing, if it had busted the castle the explosion would drown out a low growl. Not in this instance though, lightning similiar to Ganons is evident, your now making up assumptions on how the energy filled the castle.

The scene change is the only immediate thing after the thrust, but then the castle exploded so it doesn't matter. In this instance, we know for a fact that both Midna and Ganon have used yellow lightning, that does not indicate it was only Ganon, especially given Midna being the only one shown to attack. You're just nitpicking; it changes nothing.



That's just nickpicking again. We know Ganon raised all three, and it took the same amount of time for each. It proves castle busting force was needed to take the shield, and Midna was exhausted by the effort.



Not enough to even consider it being hot enough to start fires. Again, there isn't even any heat shown, it looks like the developers weren't thinking about the physics. If you want to keep this point you should probably consider not being so hypocritical towards Dante. And even if you did, it's still not enough to prevent Kain from being torched, or even to top Ganondorf's legitimate fire resistance.

seriously guys, Ganon has no feats for his speed nor his reaction time Hell, i don't even think he's a bullet timer meaning he gets speed blitz. None of his powers would even matter if he isn't fast enough to react to his opponents(especially Dante)

I agree with above. Ganon doesnt have many feats tbh for physical power, only assumptions from various clashes with link, that are then automatically assumed for all forms of Ganon, there are many forms with different powers. I am sure if I knew the games timeline i could probably argue some ganons may have gained, learned or knew of powers they would not in other timelines.

Also Scenario I am not interested in who broke the castle, weve had the discussion and it goes nowhere so I think youll agree, this would be a waste of time.

Alright, might as well reply to my own thread.

Awh yeah. Originally posted by Burning thought
I agree with above. Ganon doesnt have many feats tbh for physical power, only assumptions from various clashes with link, that are then automatically assumed for all forms of Ganon, there are many forms with different powers. I am sure if I knew the games timeline i could probably argue some ganons may have gained, learned or knew of powers they would not in other timelines.

Also Scenario I am not interested in who broke the castle, weve had the discussion and it goes nowhere so I think youll agree, this would be a waste of time. You, stop trolling my thread.Originally posted by chuck inglish
seriously guys, Ganon has no feats for his speed nor his reaction time Hell, i don't even think he's a bullet timer meaning he gets speed blitz. None of his powers would even matter if he isn't fast enough to react to his opponents(especially Dante) Dante's best feat puts him at Mach 15 to 20, IIRC, Ganon's played tennis with lightning before.



Well, Sora is fast, but how fast exactly? I don't think he's outside Ganon's reaction time, and with Sora's lower durability it's entirely possible for a one shot to take place. Can Sora avoid a lightning bolt?

Actually, heh. I've got bad news. Even in his weakened, sealed form, Demise has a strength feat that outstrips all of Dante's significantly.

This happens before he even gains the ToP in OoT. Hm. While weakened from even his original form.

nvZ1ihtpdwc#t=9m13s
9:13

Note that at 10:00 it gets very violent, and shortly after Groose shits his pants.

"W-What's with all the shaking!?" *frightened sounds*

"The entire ground is heaving! I thought it was supposed to be solid down here!"

Couple his infamous lightning time reactions, and Dante on his own is sure to be bested. :P Luckily, Dante has friends.

If Dante can teleport, and you're certain Air Trick is a teleport, that means Samus is the only one who can be reliably sidelined. But she can act as a target marker should Ganondorf use invisibility/intangibility or his Darkness technique. Wave beam. D=< This at least keeps her light beam from being a problem.
(I've not seen it, so hey, figured I'd ask, is relevant. Air Trick = teleport?)

How durable does DT armour make him? And let me be clear here. mmm This thread is about Ganondorf with the ToP, but Demise's showings have shed new light onto just how powerful he is, heh. Demise lacked the ToP and still crippled a goddess who created casual city busters and separated a city from the earth, and the covered the entire world in a seal (this is explicitly what the cloud barrier is) to keep it separate. In fact, Demise's sword could best the dragons in combat. mmm (The afore-mentioned city busters) and in fact did so.

So, uh, I'm using a little powerscaling. >_> Basically, Ganon > Demise. And Demise can physically shake regions while weakened.

So to answer this:
Demise proves once again that the Gameplay isn't representative of the characters, heh. He also gives us a list of things Ganon can do without the Triforce of Power, which he does have.

The reason I'm so comfortable pitting him against three powerful characters is that he has a lot of powers, and a lot of power behind them. Lightning bolts are always nice, barriers are useful, teleportation's great, TK is awesome, intangibility and invisibility tend to give enemies bad days. A lot of this helps him control the fight, keeping Samus locked in while fighting Dante and Sora, and abusing some of the broken abilities he's been given over the years in the process.


So, this thread should be fun.

Please explain why that large dark entity creating tremurs is a better strength feat than anything previously or outstrips Dante?

And ganons played tennsis with ball lightning that goes about 2 meters a second at best, if that....

Anyone in this thread can probably destroy him before he can react assuming he doesnt avoid those that can only attack from the ground by flying.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Please explain why that large dark entity creating tremurs is a better strength feat than anything previously or outstrips Dante?

And ganons played tennsis with ball lightning that goes about 2 meters a second at best, if that....

Anyone in this thread can probably destroy him before he can react assuming he doesnt avoid those that can only attack from the ground by flying. You, stop trolling my thread.

Telling me ime trolling every time I make a post is trolling me, ive been told to not do this to Scenario before even when later other people noticed he was trolling so I dont think youve got any moral ground here.

I have legitimate points that people have argued with you many times before, and still you ake this ad nasueum fallacy.

Maybe if you weren't being intentionally dishonest with every post you made you wouldn't be trolling and I wouldn't have to point it out.

The short version is this: Intentionally derailing a debate and sidetracking it with blatant lies and feigned ignorance out of some misplaced Board Warrior e-crusade against a character you do not like is trolling. You know you're wrong, you've been proved wrong many times.

****ing. Stop. I have a legitimate case to report you if you keep derailing my thread with your pointless asides.


And while I'm already chewing you out:


No one actually believes you'd seriously believe a calculation for Kain, for example, which was recently proven to have been done incorrectly anyway, and flies in the face of LoK canon, over the many, many instances of it being proven to not be the case. You've used fallacious anti-logic and double standards to come to conclusions that are utterly false, and intellectually dishonest. You do this on purpose.

Math is a tool to learn more about a feat, not invent new ones.

Anyone else remember when I was criticised for something as simple as weighing a ****ing block? Now it's common place, and everything is always either granite or steel. If I didn't know what kind of stone a block was I used a density of 100lbs/ft^3. Now everything is granite or steel. Jesus.

But yeah. Stop trolling.

Its not a lie until youve disproven it, and nobody has ever conceded to your belief that Ganon can play tennsis with 60k m/s bolts...

And actually, derailing your thread? I am argueing the points in the thread, i have a legitimate case to report you for attacking me in such a manner.

A list of hypocrtical statements wont make me leave, nor stop me from replying to falsehoods that I can debunk. It would be kind of you to counter thse things rather than complain.

You're repeating things that have been countered time, and time again. As you do in every thread. The difference is this one is mine and I don't want you killing it with your attention hogging and feigned ignorance.

Why did you put Kain in it knowing full well I would enter it then? you either baited me into this thread or wanted me in it, you knew for a fact it would draw me here so bashing and trolling me when I do arrive after giving me an invite seems dishonest tbh. What will kill it, if you turn this into a trolling thread, the mods will close it for sure.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Why did you put Kain in it knowing full well I would enter it then? you either baited me into this thread or wanted me in it, you knew for a fact it would draw me here so bashing and trolling me when I do arrive after giving me an invite seems dishonest tbh. What will kill it, if you turn this into a trolling thread, the mods will close it for sure. When it comes time to debate Kain, then yes, we can sit around and debate Kain for all the fun that will be. Right now it is not that time.

I deliberately put Kain in, yes, but I also put him in the final fight for a reason. I wanted to debate the others first, because Kain debates invariably devour the thread once they start. At this moment Scenario spends more time defending Samus' opponent than supporting Samus because of your uncanny ability to be knowingly wrong. Which I wouldn't mind so much if there weren't other things to discuss. I'd like to do a proper debate and get some kind of concensus between debaters about how Ganon manages and/or advances before we get into that.

So, basically, you're delaying the debate you seem to want so badly to have, too, by insisting on downplaying Ganon at every turn.

Bleh. BLEH I SAY.

****ing damn it you guys, I thought you were already told to stop this before?

And, to keep my post on topic, Sora has the laser reaction feat under his belt. I'm fairly sure reaction won't be a problem for him. If Dante can create a distraction, Samus and Sora should be able to get some nice hits in.

Well the threads only 8 pages now and theres probably more activity from me in it already than yourself debating the other characters. Tbh if you didnt want any scrutinty (Neph is after me at the moment, but he will prob argue lightning speed if it so interests him) you should have not added Kain at all, knowing full well I would come here as soon as I read it.

Although I also know Dante, Kratos, War and very roughply Khrarne. Your best bet is probably puting me on ignore until you feel like youve finished the others.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
****ing damn it you guys, I thought you were already told to stop this before?

And, to keep my post on topic, Sora has the laser reaction feat under his belt. I'm fairly sure reaction won't be a problem for him. If Dante can create a distraction, Samus and Sora should be able to get some nice hits in.

Ganon has his crowd control to help. Sora being that fragile speedster kind of fighter needs to avoid being hindered or taking a hit. Can he see things that are invisible, or do you have any idea how he'd react to a twilight field? =o