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Who Wins? This is Pre-Kotor Revan during his sith lord days.

Ragnos blesses Vitiate and Revan and they win.

Luke or Sidious solos

Yea, in your fantasy world.

Agreed. That guy clearly hates Revan and it's clouding his judgment.

Or the guy clearly loves Sidious and it's clouding his judgment

Unlikely; he said that either Sidious or Luke could solo-- there is no evidence of bias {much less love} on his part for Sidious. It is more likely that he simply hates Revan and Vitiate.

Originally posted by RevanSpoilers
Unlikely; he said that either Sidious or Luke could solo-- there is no evidence of bias {much less love} on his part for Sidious. It is more likely that he simply hates Revan and Vitiate.

In all seriousness though Luke takes Revan after a long fight.
Sidious kills Vitiate.

Or Sidious solos :P

Good one

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Good one

Sidious has feats that eclipse Emperor Vitiate's. Vitiate was slain by a lone Jedi Knight.
Granted that Knight was the Champion of the Light. But Sidious defeated the "Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known"

Looks like somebody is 10 years behind.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Looks like somebody is 10 years behind.

Looks like somebody likes to ignore established canon. From day 1 Sidious has been the most powerful Sith Lord and Yoda the most powerful Jedi.
Luke being the most powerful force user of all times. The only beings who eclipse them are The Ones of Mortis who are neither Jedi nor sith.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Looks like somebody likes to ignore established canon. From day 1 Sidious has been the most powerful Sith Lord and Yoda the most powerful Jedi.
Luke being the most powerful force user of all times. The only beings who eclipse them are The Ones of Mortis who are neither Jedi nor sith.
QFT


If it has been argued all over the place that DE Luke can take on Orbalisk Bane and win (some thread, some time ago), than I think he is perfectly capable of taking on Revan as well.

Meanwhile DE Sidious force-storms Vitiate.

Being argued isn't the same thing as winning the argument. I can argue that I can beat MJ in basketball, doesn't mean my argument holds any merit. Bane would destroy DE Luke.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Being argued isn't the same thing as winning the argument. I can argue that I can beat MJ in basketball, doesn't mean my argument holds any merit. Bane would destroy DE Luke.

Do you have something to back up that claim?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Being argued isn't the same thing as winning the argument. I can argue that I can beat MJ in basketball, doesn't mean my argument holds any merit. Bane would destroy DE Luke.
What I'm sayig is that the case was made (feats etc.) for DE Luke's superiority to Bane.

Regardless, I'm not sure about the force contest, but what have Revan accomplished with a saber?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Do you have something to back up that claim? Common sense. Do you have something substantial that shows DE Luke can handle Bane?

Originally posted by axel_jovan
What I'm sayig is that the case was made (feats etc.) for DE Luke's superiority to Bane.

Regardless, I'm not sure about the force contest, but what have Revan accomplished with a saber? Someone hasn't read the Bane novels.

Sure, Bane's a beast, but DE Luke is no pushover, and as far as I remember the thread didn't have the clear winner.

Nobody said Luke is a pushover but as of DE, there's very little evidence of him being anywhere near Bane's league.

One might say that. I am not arguing DE Luke's supremacy, just bringing the example.

Besides, what proof there is that Revan is in the same league as Bane?

Da Bane Respect pleases me.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
One might say that. I am not arguing DE Luke's supremacy, just bringing the example.

Besides, what proof there is that Revan is in the same league as Bane?

Some obscure Drew Karpyshyn quote stating that Revan Bane and Vader were equals.

Splendid

One might say that this is not an abundant proof.

I don't think Drew has the authority to make such statements.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't think Drew has the authority to make such statements.

He doesn't he made it in an interview. He says in his opinion it's a tie between them.

Excellent.

http://www.drewkarpyshyn.com/faq.htm
He even says it's not up to him to make that kind of call.

So beside this, any evidence that Revan is up there with the likes of Bane?

Feats? Quotes? Anything?

Originally posted by axel_jovan
So beside this, any evidence that Revan is up there with the likes of Bane?

Feats? Quotes? Anything?



I love this kind of acceptance. Basically, you're already opposed to the idea that Revan is a contender who could win, so you're taking arguments against him as givens and demanding evidence to satisfy your already-closed mind to the contrary.

Why bother?

Did you notice there's been a string of n00bs today?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Did you notice there's been a string of n00bs today?

It's like whack-a-mole.

Nah.

Lately there has been a big boom for Revan. My point is: lets use, say Bane, as a yardstick and place Revan somewhere in the power scale?
I asked if he is in the same league as Bane?
Damn, he can be above him or below him for what I care, but what are his feats that would prove it?

Revan and Vitiate win. The evidence in favor of these two has been posted in abundance on this thread, I'd quote it but it would be a waste of time. In a nutshell, Revan deflected lightning powerful enough to reduce a Sith Council member to ash and deflected Vitiate's Sith lightning with his lightsaber. That alone is indicative of elite skill in both the Force and swordsmanship. Vitiate himself drained the Force of hundreds of Sith Lords after dominating their minds telepathically.

Originally posted by RevanSpoilers
Revan and Vitiate win. The evidence in favor of these two has been posted in abundance on this thread, I'd quote it but it would be a waste of time. In a nutshell, Revan deflected lightning powerful enough to reduce a Sith Council member to ash and deflected Vitiate's Sith lightning with his lightsaber. That alone is indicative of elite skill in both the Force and swordsmanship. Vitiate himself drained the Force of hundreds of Sith Lords after dominating their minds telepathically. I disagree. On some other forums it was argued that DE Luke would own Bane, therefore the DE duo win.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I disagree. On some other forums it was argued that DE Luke would own Bane, therefore the DE duo win.

Truly.

TKing an AT-AT >>>> Anything Bane's ever done.

That's a dumb argument.
Sure, DE Luke tanked an AT-AT's laser cannons without any visible damage, but there's no way in hell he could do that with Sith lightning. Luke isn't anywhere near Bane's level and Bane is nowhere near Revan's level.

Originally posted by RevanSpoilers
Revan and Vitiate win. The evidence in favor of these two has been posted in abundance on this thread, I'd quote it but it would be a waste of time. In a nutshell, Revan deflected lightning powerful enough to reduce a Sith Council member to ash and deflected Vitiate's Sith lightning with his lightsaber. That alone is indicative of elite skill in both the Force and swordsmanship. Vitiate himself drained the Force of hundreds of Sith Lords after dominating their minds telepathically.
Granted, you have been known as one of Revan's most faithful supporters, even though your initial Sidious heresy.

I have seen the light now. All is clear.

Not even sure why Bane is introduced into this argument but go to town!

Right. And because Revan is only substantiated as being better than everyone but Vitiate, he must be a nobody because the Sidious brigade refuses to believe anyone but Sidious could be of consequence. Mace and Yoda are naturally powerful because they've already demonstrated defeating RotS Sidious, but since no one else has demonstrated this on-screen, they must be assumed to be inferior. Especially because a multitude of side-media pumps up Sidious' legacy even more. But anything which pumps up Vitiate or Revan is flawed. We're on the same page.

Well said. Nyriss was a leading member of the Sith Council and therefore an expert on Vitiate's life and times. We can justifiably conclude that her account of events is not merely likely, but utterly accurate. She clearly emphatically states that Vitiate is capable of mindfvcking hundreds of Sith; no one has ever shown that kind of power. Vitiate would make pawns out of Sidious and Luke, and Revan can just sit this one out.

Older Sith ftw!

I disagree. DE Sidious knew every technique and created new ones so he wins!

Bullshit, it's said "he is believed" to know all the techniques. No way he actually did, because if so he'd know how to manipulate midichlorians or live indefinitely in his own body.

No he thought that was too easy so he wanted to challenge himself and perform essence transfer.

Right, cuz clones = his own body. Well said.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
No he thought that was too easy so he wanted to challenge himself and perform essence transfer.

Nah, don't let the PT fanboys fool you, Sidious doesn't know every technique. He probably doesn't know a fourth of them lol.

No way, that would destroy most of the sidious arguments ever presented here, I don't believe you.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Did you notice there's been a string of n00bs today?

Axel has been a member for over a year and Yoda has been one for over 4.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
No way, that would destroy most of the sidious arguments ever presented here, I don't believe you.

Believe it.
Sidious is a n00b in every sense of the word. I honestly bet Dooku could kick his ass.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7FA1DSyc31Y/SbrPJGAhpUI/AAAAAAAADvU/eKyxQ0LoJDY/s400/2-23-2009+11-06-14+PM.png

PT fanboys and haters need to grasp the truth. Revan pwnz!!!1!

Yea, that's what those Revan fan are saying!

They'd be right. Honestly this place is so weird, most other places know about Revan's power and respect him accordingly. But here? Sidious is the most powerful Sith ever? LOLOLOLOLOLOLol I won't dispute that Sidious is more important to George but in every category of Sithdom, Revan outclasses him.

lol

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I disagree. DE Sidious knew every technique and created new ones so he wins!

Yes!
He knew every technique that did exist when the Dark Empire Sourcebook, which claims this, was released - in 1993. Back then, just to remind everybody, the only force techniques known were:

1) Those used in the movies.
2) Those used in the Zahn trilogy.
3) Those used in Dark Empire itself.

So Sidious knew every technique he has demonstrated on panel himself. Gosh. What a suprise.

On a sidenote:

Nai has engaged the Sidious Inquisition! I'd say nobody expects it, but that's bull. It's practically canon in this joint.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Nai has engaged the Sidious Inquisition! I'd say nobody expects it, but that's bull. It's practically canon in this joint.

Thunder rolls...a six! Win!

I wonder what the official stance is to statements like that. To the Chee!

E9SrpcqbG6o

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yes!
He knew every technique that did exist when the Dark Empire Sourcebook, which claims this, was released - in 1993. Back then, just to remind everybody, the only force techniques known were:

1) Those used in the movies.
2) Those used in the Zahn trilogy.
3) Those used in Dark Empire itself.

So Sidious knew every technique he has demonstrated on panel himself. Gosh. What a suprise.

On a sidenote: Yea, I know lol.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yes!
He knew every technique that did exist when the Dark Empire Sourcebook, which claims this, was released - in 1993. Back then, just to remind everybody, the only force techniques known were:

1) Those used in the movies.
2) Those used in the Zahn trilogy.
3) Those used in Dark Empire itself.

So Sidious knew every technique he has demonstrated on panel himself. Gosh. What a suprise.

On a sidenote:

Hahaha well said!

Sarcasm?

No, I don't think Borbarad is being sarcastic.

Its hard to tell. His words are always so tricksy.

No, but they are enlightening. I'm not sure if Borbarad is quite on tdtd's level with regards to the ability to create perceptive arguments, but there's no doubt that he's definitely one of the wisest and most insightful posters that I've ever read. It definitely makes sense that we would disregard the quote from The Dark Empire Sourcebook; it was written in the very early 1990s and canon has changed so much and it's not like there's any real basis that Sidious's knowledge remotely approached significant. If I were the arbiter of canon, I'd toss it all out. Utter hogwash, IMHO.

Tricksy hobbitses*. Your words make Nephthys' poor head all hurty.










*(I call you a hobbit because of the dwarf-like nature of some of your appendiges. Your d1ck)

Are you suggesting that my reproductive organ is the size of a hobbit? That's awfully kind {and surprisingly accurate}.

Sidious spent all that time searching about a million different worlds to master only the few techniques that were shown from ROTJ to DE. lol

Originally posted by RevanSpoilers
Are you suggesting that my reproductive organ is the size of a hobbit? That's awfully kind {and surprisingly accurate}.

No. Think Thumballena sizes.*


















*(AKA your penis is small and you should feel small. You whorish nasty man)

I don't see what's so hard to accept. The fact is that Sidious just isn't all that and the proverbial bag of potato chips. And if he were, they'd be stale.

Pff I'd still eat 'em.

haermm

lol innuendo

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Pff I'd still eat 'em.

Why would you, when there's a fresh, delicious bag of Revanchips waiting to be devoured by those willing to satisfy not only their hunger but their need for the truth of the universe?

The evidence for his supremacy is simply overwhelming.

Originally posted by RevanSpoilers
Why would you, when there's a fresh, delicious bag of Revanchips waiting to be devoured by those willing to satisfy not only their hunger but their need for the truth of the universe?

The evidence for his supremacy is simply overwhelming.

Ooooh no. Too spicy for me.

Originally posted by RevanSpoilers
Why would you, when there's a fresh, delicious bag of Revanchips waiting to be devoured by those willing to satisfy not only their hunger but their need for the truth of the universe?

Revanchips for Revanchists!

Perhaps you should repost this over on RoK.

I don't know wtf Nai is talking about but he proved conclusively that the Sith Emperor is god of the EU while Revan is #2. That's what I got out of all of that.


Also, LS would lose his mind over this (accurate)logic.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I don't know wtf Nai is talking about but he proved conclusively that the Sith Emperor is god of the EU while Revan is #2. That's what I got out of all of that.


Also, LS would lose his mind over this (accurate)logic.

Well said.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I've never idolized internet peoples, but Nai's come the closest. Critical analysis FTW.

He is rather dreamy, isn't he? I'll be more inclined to buy what he's selling the moment he applies that titillating analytical sight on a subject other than Palpatine. Because it seems to me, as the new guy, Borbarad is very much willing to accept any other quote about the likes of Ragnos, Kun, Revan, or the ancient Sith at absolute face value, no questions asked.

Or, failing that, I would appreciate an explanation as to why there should be a double standard.

While I in essence agree with what Borbarad is saying regarding the outdated nature of the source in question and its lack of compatability with material that is more recent, prevalent and of higher standing in canon, as well as how the source goes out of its way to present the aforementioned quote in a questionable manner using the "It is believed" qualifier, I think he may be missing the point with regards to some of the other points of discussion.



Or, and as it would seem is more likely upon further examination of the quote, the statement was made not with prior knowledge of then as of yet unknown material, but the prior assumption of what the then as of yet unknown material could potentially entail with possibly a later retroactive establishment of the character in light of more up to date information in mind.

"It is believed that he has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure."

If you look at the quote the intended perspective would almost surely be an in-universe one given that the qualifier "It is believed" wouldn't reasonably match the credibility of an LFL authorised writer, not only expected to possess a comprehensive understanding of canon but also granted the authority to establish canon, nor would it match the style of an out-of-universe narrative, speaking introspectively in the third person, not to mention the distinction between known and previously unknown powers which would more accurately reflect a fallible in-universe awareness; an in-universe perspective assumes a different level of knowledge to what would have been presented to an out-of-universe audience, and the implications behind the scale of the powers mentioned suggest a quantity beyond what had been established in canon up until that point in time. Moreover with regards to Palpatine devising new techniques at his pleasure, correct me if I'm wrong but at that particular point in time I don't believe we had been particularly well informed regarding anything specific that Palpatine had created, not to mention again the implications behiond the scale of his inventions; clearly the most realistic interpretation of the statement is that it assumes a level of information that hadn't outwardly been established as canon up until that point in time.



Given that the quote in question details information immaterial to the RPG system at play (the length of time of Palaptine's studies, his invention of new techniques), and where it does detail relevant information it leaves it largely undefined (mentioning that he has mastered nearly all these powers but not defining an exact quantity at which point you could act off of the information, casting doubt on the information by mentioning how it is simply believed to be the case), I find your interpretation of it as a detail regarding gameplay mechanics and not storyline dubious at best.

Regarding RPG sourcebooks, you have yet to definitively establish that they are marketed entirely towards people who plan to use it solely as part of the game, and you have yet to explain how a significant, prevalent interactive element to the sourcebook prevents it from establishing canon fact in areas where no interactive element is present, such as with the aforementioned quote.

Have you, perchance, read Path of Destruction, new member?

Of course. One of my favorite Star Wars books to this day. I have yet to read Revan, however.

Originally posted by Brako Cott
Of course. One of my favorite Star Wars books to this day. I have yet to read Revan, however.

You will be displeased. Karpyshyn's enormous deficits as a novelist are exposed for the world to see.

You will now articulate your general position on the matter of Emperor Palpatine's knowledge, since you have dared to defy the German killing machine known as Borbarad.

I hear many an essay can be found in these parts; mayhap I will be presented with the means to the location of one that I can use as a point of reference.

My initial thoughts are that his access to knowledge has been documented to greater heights than that of anybody else in Star Wars canon in both scale and variety, as have his inventions and experiments, and that with his scholarly disposition and prodigious intellect, he likely made very good use of the time he had with that base of knowledge in his learning of it. At the same time, I'm not sure how much of that knowledge in the ways of abilities he would use in a combat setting beyond the very basics that most have in their arsenal; he's certainly not shown to use anything particularly advanced or obscure in his few such encounters, that I'm aware of.

Originally posted by Brako Cott
I hear many an essay can be found in these parts; mayhap I will be presented with the means to the location of one that I can use as a point of reference.

Essay? I've heard rumors of a great Palpatine essay written by the greatest and most brilliant poster in the history of KMC.



Your positions seem to have matured in these past few years. I would hear more of your views.

Now wait just a cotton-pickin (lol black people) minute. As to the first part of the bold, we would have to use the same standards to the "it is believed" line when regarding Darth Nyriss' story. There is no difference between "it is believed" and "if the legends are to be believed". Ergo, if we have no problem with Palpatine's statement, using this line of reasoning, we should also have no problem with not only Vitiate's legend (which you've somewhat accepted), and the specific details of that legend (which you haven't). As to the second bolded part, you must be confused. Palpatine had 20-40 years of free reign while Vitiate had 1,300 years. Vitiate wasn't actively opposed by anybody once he became Emperor. The first opposition came in the form of Revan, 1,300 years later. That's not a good point to base your argument on.


I'm not following. You're saying "more is better"? Palpatine was the original evil character created at the beginning of the SW saga. The EU didn't exist until 20+ years later. Using your logic, most EU materials don't mention Palpatine at all. What does that mean? Nothing at all.

AHAHAHAHA I just read the next part about Nyriss, that I already addressed. I guess I shouldn't be reading and responding one paragraph at a time.

black ppl = lulz



I've made my position clear on the validity of the legend and the validity of the claim from The Dark Empire Sourcebook regarding Palpatine's knowledge: they should both be accepted or both be rejected.



The opposition in question refers to the obstacles that opposed Vitiate's ability to scour the entire galaxy for Force knowledge, not impediments to his study.



No, I'm saying that Borbarad charges us with taking out-of-universe facts into consideration. I charge him to do the same with the fact that Palpatine, among all other Sith, is chosen to give voice to the dark side in compendiums like The Essential Guide to the Force and The Book of Sith.

Perhaps as far as jedi knowledge is concerned, you are right to some extent. Vitiate was unopposed to study the dark side seeing as how Malachor 2 and 5 existed, as well as Dromund Kaas, Korriban, and countless other sith planets that the Jedi didn't get around to. Vitiate had 1,300 years to map out the unknown regions (like the Voss). ALso remember that he had spies on the jedi council who he mind controlled. Or rather poured his essence into.

Dr McBeefington
Perhaps as far as jedi knowledge is concerned, you are right to some extent. Vitiate was unopposed to study the dark side seeing as how Malachor 2 and 5 existed, as well as Dromund Kaas, Korriban, and countless other sith planets that the Jedi didn't get around to. Vitiate had 1,300 years to map out the unknown regions (like the Voss). ALso remember that he had spies on the jedi council who he mind controlled. Or rather poured his essence into.

I'm not suggesting that Vitiate's astrographical resources were miniscule, I'm saying that they aren't on par with Palpatine's.

It's possible. Then again, we don't know how much of the Unknown Regions Vitiate conquered. He had 1,300 years to map it out and we don't know how large of an area the Unknown Regions constitute.

I'm uncertain how even the most conservative examination of their respective territories could yield anything less than a "probable" in this capacity.



Palpatine's sanctioned forays are well documented. There wasn't a power in the galaxy capable of outright resisting Coruscant, so I'm not sure how he would have been limited with regards to the Unknown Regions either.

I'm not sure Palpatine's Empire was as well versed with the Unknown Region as Vitiate's. Actually, I'm positive that the disparity isn't even close, seeing as how Vitiate lived there for over a millennium.

Dr McBeefington
I'm not sure Palpatine's Empire was as well versed with the Unknown Region as Vitiate's. Actually, I'm positive that the disparity isn't even close, seeing as how Vitiate lived there for over a millennium.

Exploring, mapping, and subjugating the Unknown Regions was Grand Admiral Thrawn's primary directive from Palpatine during the Empire's reign, in order to increase Imperial territory and establish a bulwark against the invading Yuuzhan Vong.

But even if we set aside this and the complete speculation with comparing Vitiate's respective familiarity with Palpatine's in regards to the Unknown Regions, the fact remains that Palpatine had more access to the galaxy at large and, consequently, more access to the Force lore within, which is ultimately what this discussion has become concerned with.

I don't want to get sidetracked in a dick measuring contest between the breadth of their empires.

As an aside, where is the quote about Vitiate abandoning the rule of the empire to pursue his studies? Because according to the website, he only did this after the the Treaty of Coruscant.

This is from wiki but I remember it in one of the holorecordings of that Jedi Master historian dude. I'll find it in the morning.



Also, was re-reading Revan again and I found this part interesting.


While most of this doesn't apply to Palpatine, he DID have an unusual echo to his voice when he turned Anakin into Darth Vader, after killing Windu. Also, on the 2nd Death Star.

Speaking of Revan, I wrote a scathing review of it as the user Sable_Hart.

Aside from your gay username, it was quite good. Btw, it DOES appear that the Emperor singlehandedly defeated the dark council.

I believe most, if not all, of my arguments were centered towards the idea that Vitiate potentially used a ritual that aided in his slaughter of the Council members.

http://emotibot.net/pix/59.jpg

Zing!

God ****ing damn it.

Originally posted by Brako Cott
Or, and as it would seem is more likely upon further examination of the quote, the statement was made not with prior knowledge of then as of yet unknown material, but the prior assumption of what the then as of yet unknown material could potentially entail with possibly a later retroactive establishment of the character in light of more up to date information in mind.

Or, and this is the most reasonable explanation, the writer did want to give the game master a carte blanche regarding Sidious abilities, hence putting the sentence in the (not canon) stat section of the entry about Sidious, instead of making it part of the narrative about the character of the Sith Lord...



It is a part of the gameplay mechanics, which can be seen on the picture I have provided. So this isn't my "interpretation" but merely the way the source presents this quote to us - as an addendum to Sidious "Force Alter" stat.



I've never proclaimed, that they are marketed entirely towards people playing the RPG. I've proclaimed that the target group are those people who do - otherwise introducing game stats for the protagonists would be rather senseless, correct?

Of course, sourcebooks can flesh out the stuff presented in the original sources in form of adding detail. They can't change the original source material. And retroactively equipping Sidious with a plethora of abilities, that would have come in handy in order to survive the DE storyline, doesn't make much sense. Neither does applying the blank statement to the force abilities in terms of discussions. Otherwise, we would need to do the same with Freedon Nadd and - by extension - the likes of Sadow, Ragnos, Kun, Simus, Vitiate.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Or, and this is the most reasonable explanation, the writer did want to give the game master a carte blanche regarding Sidious abilities, hence putting the sentence in the (not canon) stat section of the entry about Sidious, instead of making it part of the narrative about the character of the Sith Lord...

We were discussing the perspective of the statement, not whether or not it was included as a gameplay mechanic, which we cover further down the argument.



It is within the gameplay mechanics section but that doesn't neccessarily mean that it is itself a gameplay mechanic, as it can be, and as it would seem given the context, be providing a storyline explanation to the designation of the stats.



Correct, you identified those players as the target audience, but then proceeded to analyse the function of sourcebooks based entirely off of the characteristics of the target audience and not the entire target market. Once you understand that the sourcebook was partially marketed for non gameplay-purposes, you should be able to accept that the books also serve a storytelling purpose, at least as far as what the creators' intended, and even if that storytelling purpose were solely a catalogue of existing information, or presenting it from differing perspectives or with new insights.



I'm not sure you can say a direct contradiction has been established here. Not only have the extent to which Sidious has "nearly" mastered all of those abilities, nor have the specific abilities he has mastered not been defined by that statement alone, but I'm not sure you can neccessarily say it was a deficiency in knowledge that lead to Sidious' downfall in the DE comics.



Again, I'd like to acknowledge the fact that the quote is clearly from a fallible perspective, is largely vague and may be of a dubious compatibility with newer, more prevalent, and more credible material, but what such statements are you referring to that exist for the other characters?

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
The beginning of the quote details Palpatine's historic efforts to gather and master Force knowledge;

Really?

"Palpatine has spent decades studying the most arcane and esoteric Jedi disciplines. It is believed that he has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers and devises new ones at his pleasure" - Dark Empire Sourcebook, p.38.

I don't see much "details" given about Sidious "historic efforts" to gather and master force knowledge. Just some arbitrary statement, that tells us he can pretty much use all powers known, some that are unknown and can come up with new stuff at his will. This is a carte blanche in terms of gameplay, to equip him with all powers a gamemaster needs him to have.



Where is the background information? There is no story told, no actions described, no details given - especially none, that hadn't been introduced before. The quote justifies Sidious "Force alter" stat, and I'm not willing to ignore the way it is placed within the source (right in the n-canon game stat section).



Did the meaning of "all the known powers" change between 1993 and today? Did the possible time frame for Sidious study of the "most arcane and esoteric" Jedi disciplines change with the establishment of the PT era storyline? Did the amount of techniques previously unknown and of those Sidious could have invented change with the establishment of more force users and force using organisations that came before the Emperor?

To me, the answer to those questions is: Yes.
So can we apply the quote to the present day SW universe, without any modification? Does Sidious know nearly all force powers that we know today? Can he device "new" powers "at will" in a realm where much more force powers than originally exists? I doubt it.



I don't see how N-canon statements become canon, just because other (canon) sources make statements to a similar direction. There is a huge difference between having mastered nearly all known powers, previously unknown ones and being able to come up with new ones at will and having found a nice amount of knowledge.



Because a carte blanche in terms of in-game powers, placed in brackets behind a stat doesn't belong to the stats in your world?



It does, in the very second those powers become known to the reader of the aforementioned quote, because of qualfying as "nearly all powers known" in that case. The same is true for the quote regarding Nadd: Once an ancient Sith power becomes known, Nadd would have access to it.



I'd say that having multiple worlds filled with knowledge of the Dark Side, established by a 2,000 year lasting civilization of Dark Side users does surpass Sidious resources in terms of Dark Side knowledge. Which means that every member of the Ancient Sith Empire is potentially more knowledgeable in terms of Dark Side lore than Sidious.
You see...the pharaos would probably know more about Ancient Egypt than the best informed historian in our time, which is an accurate analogy for the relation between the Ancient Sith and Sidious, when it comes to Dark Side lore.



I must have missed the part of your post, where you accept the quote about Nadd as accurate - with all consequences linked to such an acknowledgement. In fact, you're still calling Sidious the most knowledgeable Sith Lord, when applying the quote about Nadd would instantly give him access to all force powers that originated before his death and not just "nearly all" in form of speculation.



I'm humoured by the fact, that you think my posting history is relevant to this debate (which it isn't) and your complete lack of ability to stay on topic. We're arguing the validity of a single source here and to validate it, it would be nice to have anything that says the same. This is what validation means. Attempting to missdirect the discussion to an entirely irrelevant topic (also known as red herring) doesn't change that fact. Nor does the cheap attempt at ad hominem (introducing my post history).

But since you've introduced it: I'm, just to state this once again, mainly here for debate and not to proof my opinion right. My personal view on certain issues is independant of the arguments I make here, which has led to situations in which I used one quote in debate A, while attacking it at the same time in debate B. I can remember that a certain individual complained a lot about this behavior, and I wonder how you could have missed that in your examination of my posting history.

For the Ragnos arguments: Most of them are based on deductive reasoning, that is logically sound. I've never seen anybody here proving it wrong. In fact, I haven't even seen somebody trying to attack it directly. That certain people aren't capable of grasping deductive logic and hence stick to inductive reasoning, thinking that, if they compile enough quotes pointing to a certain, speculative point, they have "proven" their oppinion, is neither my fault, nor do I give a damn about it.




And now we can add a straw man to the list of logical fallacies commited so far.
I said that the collective of the Ancient Sith had more resources in terms of Dark Side lore than Sidious has (in the shape of entire worlds filled with it - see Malachor V). This, of course, means, that the same applies to each individual that belonged to said "collective", because each of them had access to that amount of knowledge, with just tiny fractions of it making it into Sidious time.



Apparently, the individual in question is fazed enough to instantly correct his previous statement...



I think, I've made it overly clear, why Sidious is the only logical choice for that role. As you haven't contradicted my reasoning in that regard, I will simple accept your concession and move on.




It does annull the possibility, to use him as source for Dark Side lore before his fall to the Dark Side or after him being redeemed, with him being kind of overshadowed by his Sith Master in the remaining time period between those events. Frankly, there is no reason to pick Vader for the role of a "Dark Side guide". Much like there is no reason to assume, Sidious is the most knowledgeable, just because he is chosen for it.

Originally posted by Brako Cott
It is within the gameplay mechanics section but that doesn't neccessarily mean that it is itself a gameplay mechanic, as it can be, and as it would seem given the context, be providing a storyline explanation to the designation of the stats.

*sigh*
Would the quote be there without the corresponding stat? The quote is there to explain the stat. So how can we seperate the quote from the gameplay section? That's stripping the quote from its context, which was my general critique in the first place.



The SW sourcebooks are clear niche products, even among SW fans. With the books and comics to the saga already being niche products, in comparison to the movies. There is a reason why WotC actually cancelled the series.

That being said, I find your argumentation rather weak. Of course, I see the RPG players as main audience, especially when discussing a quote that is part of the game statistics. Because those serve the single purpose of role-playing. In that regard, the quote has to be understand as carte blanche for gamemasters regarding Sidious abilities. If that was information for the "casual reader", we would have found it in the "storytelling" part of the book and not as a kind of commentary to one of the gameplay stats.



If I write that somebody has nearly mastered all known force powers, and then introduce a plethora of new force powers, either "nearly all" isn't the correct qualifier any longer, or - suddenly - the individual is equipped with much more knowledge than I had in mind when making that statement.
And I can imagine a lot of "known powers" that would have better suited Sidious in the attempt to kill Luke and Leia, than trying to get rid of them by summoning a force storm. The various insta-kills and crippling manouvers added to the line of force powers would have been a good choice.



I have provided the corresponding quote for Nadd. But here again:

"Freedon Nadd has knowledge of all Jedi and Sith Force powers presented herein as well as those abilities still hidden in ancient Holocrons and tomes" - Tales of the Jedi Companion, p.70.

For the sake of space, I'm going to trim some of the fat from your quote blocks.





The quote explains what he studied, how long he spent studying it, and it dovetails perfectly into earlier remarks made by The Dark Empire Sourcebook that elaborate, referencing the Heresiarchs and other Force using cults.



Mr. Chee makes no reference to the placement of information being grounds to disregard it, only the content.



Given the breadth of his knowledge and the resources at his disposal, I see no reason to doubt Sidious's knowledge of the Force or question his knowledge of the majority of its techniques, even with the additions to canon since 1993.



But if there is the presence of an immediate contradiction, you have yet to provide it. So you're either holding out on me, sly devil that you are, or you actually don't know of any. Which is what I mean: the sources that mention Sidious's enormous wealth of Force knowledge would point towards validating the quote from The Dark Empire Sourcebook than invalidating it.



Not when the quote provides background information critical to Sidious's biography and references more elaborate information detailed in the same sourcebook, to say nothing of the suspicious lack of a true mathematical value attributed to Palpatine's knowledge.



The quote you provided makes no reference to Nadd having access to all the powers known, merely all the powers referenced in that particular sourcebook.



Which supposes that all members of the ancient Sith Empire had access to the collective knowledge or the same voracious appetite to master the Force. Have you some source to indicate that Sith Lords of that time shared their knowledge so openly with one another?



Ancient Egypt, for the purposes of this discussion, is a society. I'm not claiming Palpatine's knowledge of the ancient Sith empire transcends an actual ancient Sith, but that his knowledge of the Force transcends any individual's.



I have no problem at all accepting the idea that Nadd has knowledge of the Force techniques depicted within that sourcebook or knowledge hidden in ancient tomes and Holocrons. Knowledge and mastery aren't synonymous and it would still leave Nadd subordinate to Darth Sidious.



I apologize if I injured your sensitivities, I'm merely doing my best to hold you accountable to a single standard. Unless you'd prefer me to think of you as a hypocrite?





As you can see, I thought things like this were fair game, given the precedent established by you. You have no reason to be offended and, if you are, it might be best that you confine yourself to the point and not tangents.



You have proof to indicate that every Sith in the ancient Sith Empire had access to the entire empire's knowledge?



I contradicted your reasoning by pointing out the flaws in the belief that Vader wasn't Sith enough to qualify; by introducing Maul as another candidate; and then by pointing out that Tionne Solusar was selected to be the in-universe guide to The Essential Guide to the Force, despite her insignificance next to Luke Skywalker and the like. Popularity clearly wasn't a role in determining who represented the dark side.



No, they could have used Vader to represent the dark side during his reign as a Sith Lord, by way of holocron or compendium. The fact that Vader actually has a role in the collection of the Telos Holocron indicates that the authors thought him perfectly Sith enough; Tionne even references Vader as an "inspiration" for those who follow the dark side. He is more popular than Sidious and clearly made efforts to study the dark side independent of his Master's wishes (his experimentation with Toydarians and those species immune to the Force are detailed in the essential guide). So why not him, if popularity was the concern?

There is no reason to conclude that Sidious was selected because of popularity or chronological concerns. The essential guide was compiled during the events of The Legacy of the Force: Lumiya or Caedus would have been sufficient candidates to provide narration on the dark side, as would have Darth Krayt and his ilk who are referenced in the guide's epilogue (as the guide, in terms of Star Wars' in-universe chronology, exists during the Legacy period).

Thus the only logical conclusion is that Sidious was selected because of his knowledge of the Force, which speaks to why the various quotes about his knowledge and mastery of it detailed in various sources remain valid.

Originally posted by Borbarad
*sigh*
Would the quote be there without the corresponding stat? The quote is there to explain the stat. So how can we seperate the quote from the gameplay section? That's stripping the quote from its context, which was my general critique in the first place.

The quote isn't being stripped from its gameplay context by detailing a piece of the storyline if that same piece of storyline can be considered to act as an explanation for the designation of the given gameplay statistics. It's not so much that the quote is being seperated from the gameplay section as it is that it doesn't entirely serve the same function as the statistics that encompass the rest of the section - it still serves a purpose within the section but at the same time it speaks entirely truly for the storytelling aspect of the sourcebook.



Your point being?



Naturally the RPG players are the main audience but we were discussing the entire market and every function the sourcebook was intended to, and does in fact, serve.



As has already been established the statement details information immaterial to the mechanics of the gameplay, and where the information is relavent it's left entirely vague and undefined for it to be of any use within the game, so the idea that it can be used as some kind of indication to what players can do is simply foolish. The different sections, for the most part serve a general storytelling or gameplay purpose but at the same time nothing states that they have to follow that general purpose to the entirety of its contents. The information in the gameplay section may not have been presented with what you identify as the casual reader in mind, or in other words people only interested in the storyline, but at the same time it's entirely likely that it would have been catered for those who both play the game and are interested in the storyline presented, and to that end the statement wouldn't in any way be out of place in the section it was included.



If you're again arguing out-of-universe standards vs in-universe considerations as it would seem, we've already covered that part of the argument elsewhere. To reiterate, in the face of the unknown such statements could be made with future predictions/assumptions in mind that we cannot say weren't necessarily met, or with the intention of setting a universal standard regardless of any future changes that future material would have to be accessed with respect towards. As I've already expanded upon, not only is a sense of scale not present at that point in time heavily implied in the given statement, but mentions are made of elements entirely absent up to that point in time, which would pretty much require an alternative interpretation than the one you've presented us with.



1. I'm sure you could imagine stuff that Sidious had already been demonstrated to know of in the very same source that would have been better suited for that purpose, such as force lightning or telekinesis, so there's no real inconsistency or any such deficiency in knowledge established here.

2. Nothing indicates that he intended to use the Force Storm against Luke and Leia IIRC; the only mention made is that he was readying it against the surrounding fleet.



Well that's just Nadd and that is still just the abilities present in the book as well as an almost entirely unquantified set of other abilities. The quote doesn't have the same sense of totality, or rather the closeness to totality, as does the one with Sidious.

So I guess Nai wins?

The opposite. Now he can't ever defeat their posts. In death they become invincible!

It looked like two socks versus Nai. That's a SWVF Power Duel. I have a desire to play Jedi Academy now.

No, wait... TOR. Sorry.