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Who wins?

Wonderman punks Logan`s head into the dirt again.

Simon curbs him.

Simon

Originally posted by Mshinu
Wonderman punks Logan`s head into the dirt again. Correct me if I'm wrong but Simon cheapshotted Logan with like 5 hits and still didn't kayo him.

Wonderman wtf stomps him. And Maxum wont be there to save him this time.

Wolverine wins, with ease.

lol, I couldn't even type that without cracking up.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Correct me if I'm wrong but Simon cheapshotted Logan with like 5 hits and still didn't kayo him.

Simon hit Logan like 3 times and Wolverine was seeing stars even after he was saved. Plus that isn't the only time they've fought.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Simon hit Logan like 3 times and Wolverine was seeing stars even after he was saved. Plus that isn't the only time they've fought. I thought it was more than 3. He was still blindsided though so it wasn't fair.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
I thought it was more than 3. He was still blindsided though so it wasn't fair.

Yea...Simon using his powers does make this unfair.

I'm just saying Logan could have handled the punches better had he knew they were coming.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
I'm just saying Logan could have handled the punches better had he knew they were coming.

Does knowing that he's about to be punched increase his durability?

Originally posted by Silent Master
Does knowing that he's about to be punched increase his durability? Yes.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Yes.

Going back and looking Simon landed 5 cheap shots and Logan wasn't kayoed, but Goliath landed one shot on Simon and he was kayoed.

It wasn't 5 shots and only the first one was a "cheap shot" and it was Maxam that ko'd Simon

Originally posted by Silent Master
It wasn't 5 shots and only the first one was a "cheap shot" and it was Maxam that ko'd Simon Oh right, the first punch was a cheap shot, but the next 4 blows weren't.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Correct me if I'm wrong but Simon cheapshotted Logan with like 5 hits and still didn't kayo him. The first shot is a cheapshot. After that, it's called an old fashioned spanking.

Simon wins.

Knowing about shots does let someone roll with them better.


Still, Simon wins.

Does wolverine atleast have his claws. Cuz I think punching with slugfest

Probably Wonderman. Wolverine's claws managed to penetrate Simon in Avengers, but considering he is composed of ionic energy it hardly matters.

Logan's claws didn't penetrate Simon.

They did.

No, they didn't.

http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lryazaBx4b1qdshi4o1_500.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/sinister_samurai/Untitled-2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/sinister_samurai/avengers2_021.jpg

It was a flash of energy at the point of impact, its no different than the sparks we see when Wolverine slashes Colossus.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ltqtfcU4ZR1qhqmx8.gif

Energy hemorrhage where has stabbed, then a visible blood trail on Simon's back that's point of origin just so happens to be the exact spot where Wolverine tagged him with his claws and the energy hemorrhage came form. Coincidence? Huh? Huuuh? HUUUUUUUUUUUH? Nope. Wolverine stabbed him and you are a lunatic.

And I'm aware that Simon isn't supposed to bleed red blood. Welcome to the world of colour mistakes. What colour was Count Nef's blood when Wolverine carved him up, I forget?

That "visible blood trail" is a different color than the flash of energy and is coming from a different point on his back.

Plus, let's just ignore all the other energy trails in that panel.

Originally posted by Silent Master
That "visible blood trail" is a different color than the flash of energy and is coming from a different point on his back.

Plus, let's just ignore all the other energy trails in that panel.

It's a different colour because it's not energy... it's blood, and it's coming form the same spot Wolverine his shown tagging him. On Simon's back, inbetween his two shoulder blades below the case of the neck.

How about we acknowledge the fact that all the energy trails on the panel are purple so the red one is obviously something else? None of his other bands are creating a red bleed effect in any of the other panels, and this one only is in the exact spot where Wolverine stabbed him. Nope Wolverine didn't cut him, it's just a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge coincidence, right? Get real. Do the math man, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure out what the artists intent is.

The stab was above the red W, the energy trail is from the bottom of the W...BTW, the trail is the exact same shade as the W. If he was actually bleeding, the red trail would start above the W.

It does. It starts at the tip of the W comes down in a straight line, and starts to branch out towards the right at the bottom of the W.

Hard to say what's going on there. It kinda does look like Logan stabbed him. Was Logan kayoed there?

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Hard to say what's going on there. It kinda does look like Logan stabbed him. Was Logan kayoed there?

Logan tried to stab him, it just didn't work. as you can see the entire length of his claws in the panel.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Logan tried to stab him, it just didn't work. as you can see the entire length of his claws in the panel. You can look at it that way I guess. Is there anymore to this fight?

Originally posted by juggernaut74
You can look at it that way I guess. Is there anymore to this fight?

I believe that was it as far as Logan goes.

Then it's an energy trail.

It's a blood trail, if it was an energy trail it would be purple like it is in every single other panel.

It's the same color as the W, which is made of energy.

Originally posted by Silent Master
It's the same color as the W, which is made of energy.

Wrong version of Wonderman. This one where's clothing and has a physical form.

Barring the one summoned by SW, they all had clothing and a physical form.

The WM with the energy "W" from Force Works and early 2000s Avengers (Busiek?) was turning into pure ionic energy. Current Wonderman doesn't do that, he shrouds himself in an energy aura like a Dragon Ball Z character... and didn't Iron Man say that wasn't supposed to happen? That it was ion energy leaking and it was killing him? His "W" isn't energy.

I'm a few states away from my comics so I can't check right now...however the main trail's shape is too uniform and straight to be blood flow, also there is no mention of any injury in the book.

Plus, you can see all of Wolverine's claws is the panel where they supposedly penetrate Simon's back...not to mention the lack of blood in that panel.

Originally posted by Silent Master
I'm a few states away from my comics so I can't check right now...however the main trail's shape is too uniform and straight to be blood flow, also there is no mention of any injury in the book.

Plus, you can see all of Wolverine's claws is the panel where they supposedly penetrate Simon's back...not to mention the lack of blood in that panel.

No worries, I don't have my long boxes in my condo either, just my weekly 0-Day issues from September - Now. But I remember Stark saying that Simon was leaking ionic energy and that he looked sickly and he was losing hair and it was likely killing him. That's why he has an energy shroud around him now, but was normal back during Mighty Avengers. It's also probably why is he is currently insane.

Not really. He bursted forward and the streaked downwards, the off shot to the right is probably and indication of where it was pooling while he was still standing before he started flying.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
No worries, I don't have my long boxes in my condo either, just my weekly 0-Day issues from September - Now. But I remember Stark saying that Simon was leaking ionic energy and that he looked sickly and he was losing hair and it was likely killing him. That's why he has an energy shroud around him now, but was normal back during Mighty Avengers. It's also probably why is he is currently insane.

Not really. He bursted forward and the streaked downwards, the off shot to the right is probably and indication of where it was pooling while he was still standing before he started flying.

Did Stark say that before or after the stab?

Originally posted by Silent Master
Basically, if Wolverine really stabbed him and that was really blood rather than just an energy trail....why isn't there a mention of the injury anywhere in the book...hell Simon didn't even grunt when it happened and he's not exactly known for his pain tolerance.

It didn't need to be mentioned because it was shown... can you think of a single time when the issue stops and the narration points out that Wolverine stabbed someone? How much hand holding do you need.

Simone has pretty good damage soak, the guy has taken some pretty epic beatings in his career. He isn't the top tier equivalent of Punisher but he isn't a push over.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Did Stark say that before or after the stab?

It think it was before when they tried to recruit him for the Avengers but I'm working from memory.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
It's a blood trail, if it was an energy trail it would be purple like it is in every single other panel. That's a good point also. Maybe a coloring error?

Originally posted by juggernaut74
That's a good point also. Maybe a coloring error?

It's possible but if you look closely at the longer red trail you can see that it appears to have been purple first, then coloured over in red, which would imply that it was intentional. In order to believe that it isn't a blood trail you have to chalk a lot of things up to coincidence, to the point where we are more than straining the limits of believability. The simple and most obvious explanation is that Wolverine stabbed Wonder Man and that red streak is a trail of blood. Silent Master can over analyses and dissect the issue until he dies of old age, but the most logical answer is Wolverine stabbed Wonder Man, any other explanation requires too many coincidences to line up for it to be a reasonable belief.

We don't see any blood in the panel he is stabbed because it is blocked by an energy hemorrhage. As for the length of the blood trail, it's a comic book, they exaggerate and accentuate everything. When Wonder Man punched Wolverine that comic his face practically exploded, looked like he lost a freaking liter of blood.

Wonder Man doesn't have red energy. His energy is purple. The red trail isn't purple. The red trail is red. The red trail is blood. Simple.

Yea...that doesn't explain how the wound was gone by the next panel, how we can see the entire length of Logan's claws in the panel where he stabs Simon, why Simon didn't even grunt while being stabbed and why no mention of the wound is mentioned in the narration or by a character in the book.

It's an energy trail and it's exactly the same shade as his W.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Yea...that doesn't explain how the wound was gone by the next panel, how we can see the entire length of Logan's claws in the panel where he stabs Simon, why Simon didn't even grunt while being stabbed and why no mention of the wound is mentioned in the narration or by a character in the book.

It's an energy trail and it's exactly the same shade as his W.

The wound was never "gone by the next panel", Wonder Man simply left and he and his back was never shown again. The panel in question is a snap shot of the seconds after the Wolverine stabbed Wonder Man. He ate a punch to land his attack and his claws were no longer inside of Simon. The narration and all the characters failed to mention that Wonder Man punched Wolverine too, I guess that never happened also! Do you think about the things you are writing? This isn't a novel, it's a comic, there isn't a narrative play-by-play to restate everything happening on the panels. That would be incredibly sloppy story telling.

The W isn't energy, it's cloth.

The panel with the blood/energy trail has no wound, as far as Wolverine's wound...we see blood in the same panel as the hit and Wolverine said ggarrghh!!, Let me guess, Simon has a higher pain threshold than Wolverine.

Just so I'm clear...your new argument is that Wolverine stabbed Wonder-man off panel and Simon has both a healing factor and a higher pain tolerance than Logan.

Plus, even if that is blood, according to you Simon was weakened and thus the feat wouldn't even count in regards to a heathy Simon.

lol

Because the lack of a sound effect is what we use to determine how effective an attack was! dur

In the next issue Wolverine ate a near point blank energy blast from Apocalypse's Celestial tech weaponry and got tossed into a building by Red Hulk and didn't make a noise in either case! ZOMG! In the issue before Kang didn't make a sound effect when Thor blasted him point blank in the face and knocked him across the city! ZOMG! Seriously, your a joke man. At least attempt to come up with a worth while argument, you are debasing the entire forum with this nonsense.

Simon isn't weakened, if anything he is stronger than before, like a dying star burning hotter and hotter as it uses up the last of its fuel before going Nova. He is leaking ionic energy, which is for all purposes his life force, eventually it will kill him but right now he essentially has unregulated strength and energy output. He dropped Thor with a single gut shot.

Was that a yes to, Wolverine stabbed Wonder-man off panel and Simon has both a healing factor and a higher pain tolerance than Logan.?


According to you, Stark said that "Simon was leaking ionic energy and that he looked sickly and he was losing hair and it was likely killing him." Leaking energy and losing hair would call his durability into question, so even if that was blood...it wouldn't be a usable feat for a healthy Simon.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Was that a yes to, Wolverine stabbed Wonder-man off panel and Simon has both a healing factor and a higher pain tolerance than Logan.?


According to you, Stark said that "Simon was leaking ionic energy and that he looked sickly and he was losing hair and it was likely killing him." Leaking energy and losing hair would call his durability into question, so even if that was blood...it wouldn't be a usable feat for a healthy Simon.

No it's a "What the hell are you talking about?" to the idea that Simon has a healing factor and higher pain tolerance than Logan. Lack of a sound effect signifies less than nothing (as I just pointed out), and there is no basis at all for suggesting he has a healing factor. So, again, what the hell are you talking about?

Uhhhhhhh... based on what? What relation does hair lose and energy leaking have to durability? Anyway I went back and reread the issues we are discussing, and I was off a bit, Iron Man said that Wonder Man was having trouble "keeping himself together." It looked like all his energy was leaking out and he as to concentrate to keep it inside of him. It doesn't look like the hair lost is ever explicitly mentioned (I only skimmed through the first couple of ten issues so maybe it comes up again) but in the first issue Simon has a full head of shoulder length hair while Cap is talking to him, then the next issue his hair is cropped short the the scalp, I guess I linked the two things together but it is conceivable he got a new hair cut to go with his new evil outlook.

His wound is missing in the panel that shows the energy/blood trail...which either means that he wasn't stabbed or that he has a healing factor.

So back to my question, Was that a yes to, Wolverine stabbed Wonder-man off panel and Simon has both a healing factor and a higher pain tolerance than Logan?

Plus, Simon not being healthy means that even if you're right about it being blood...the feat isn't usable for against a healthy Wonder-man.

Originally posted by Silent Master
His wound is missing in the panel that shows the energy/blood trail...which either means that he wasn't stabbed or that he has a healing factor.

So back to my question, Was that a yes to, Wolverine stabbed Wonder-man off panel and Simon has both a healing factor and a higher pain tolerance than Logan?

Plus, Simon not being healthy means that even if you're right about it being blood...the feat isn't usable for against a healthy Wonder-man.

The wound is not missing... it's under the blood. So again, what the hell are you talking about with this pain tolerance and healing factor nonsense? Seriously?

Except for the net result of Simon's aliments is a power amp...

^ Even granting your observation that Wolverine appears to pierce Simon's energy form, what exactly leads you to believe that Simon would eventually leak vital energies out and be gravely wounded/die?

The claws hit above the W, there is no "blood" above the W in that panel.

Which brings us back to Was that a yes to, Wolverine stabbed Wonder-man off panel and Simon has both a healing factor and a higher pain tolerance than Logan?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Even granting your observation that Wolverine appears to pierce Simon's energy form, what exactly leads you to believe that Simon would eventually leak vital energies out and be gravely wounded/die?

I don't believe that any of that would happen. I already said it doesn't matter that Wolverine can stab him, this argument is over whether or not he did.

^ Ah, didn't see this: Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Probably Wonderman. Wolverine's claws managed to penetrate Simon in Avengers, but considering he is composed of ionic energy it hardly matters.

Originally posted by Silent Master
The claws hit above the W, there is no "blood" above the W in that panel.

Which brings us back to Was that a yes to, Wolverine stabbed Wonder-man off panel and Simon has both a healing factor and a higher pain tolerance than Logan?

He didn't connect with the area above the W. Look at the panels. Notice where the section of the W connects with Wonder Man's shoulder, then look at the direct back few and notice how the center of the W arcs well above that area. Underneath the purple energy hemorrhage is the middle chevron that composes the W.

You look at the panel, the claws aren't even close to the W.

lol

Yes they are, just look at he panel and the orientation of the character. We can see the left part of the W that connects with his shoulder, and we know the proportions of the logo based on the panel where we see Simon's back. We know where Wolverine's claws are, we know what Wonder Man's logo looks like, we know the W is symmetrical at the middle chevron meets in the center of his spine just below the base of his neck. Its not difficult to deduce where claws are relative to that logo. There is debate on this issue. Wolverine's claws are visibly situated near Wonder Man's spine a few inches below the base of his neck, that IS where the W would be if it was visible.

Please take some time to think about what you are saying, and stop merely being contrary for the sack of being contrary.

The down stroke of the W passes under Logan's fist, and seeing as the upstroke is also angled, the claws aren't pointed to where any part of the W would be.

The "up part" of the the W would be curving around the shoulder blade, up towards the base of the neck, where Wolverine's claws are.

No, this part \ of the W passes under Logan's fist, that means the upstroke, IE this part / would be even further to the right of his fist....IOW nowhere near where his claws are pointed.

Originally posted by Silent Master
No, this part \ of the W passes under Logan's fist, that means the upstroke, IE this part / would be even further to the right of his fist....IOW nowhere near where his claws are pointed.

If he was a flat surface and not subject to the laws of perspective maybe. lol

Look at Wonder Man's shoulders. Look where his head is. Triangulate the center line (spine). Notice where Wolverine's claws are relative to that. You don't need to be Da Vinci or have a masters in anatomy to figure this out.

Look at Wolverine's fist, the down stroke of the W passes under it, that means the upstroke is going to be to the right of his fist.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Look at Wolverine's fist, the down stroke of the W passes under it, that means the upstroke is going to be to the right of his fist.

Foreshortening, depth and perspective. Google them.

You can see where Wonder Man's left shoulder is. You can see where his right shoulder is. You can see where his head is. You can see where his center line is. You know relative to each of those points where the W will in up. Imposed on top are the claws of Wolverine's hand. It's not complicated, you have no argument to support you claim, the fact that you believe that you do is detrimental to credibility. Stop working so hard to undermine your own intelligence.

http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lu1s546EcM1qf1116o1_400.gif

Again, the downstroke passes under Logan's fist, that means the upstroke will be to the right of his fist.

IOW, Logan stabbed the purple area between the red lines.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Again, the downstroke passes under Logan's fist, that means the upstroke will be to the right of his fist.

IOW, Logan stabbed the purple area between the red lines.

Wolverine's claws are near the the center line of Wonder Man's spine. They couldn't have penetrated the purple area in between the red sections because the W is perfectly symmetrical in how it is laid out on Simon's back. Wolverine's claws are in the center of his back, where the top of the W would be. Everything you are saying has been addressed... do you not remember how I explained this to you already? It was only a few minutes ago. Maybe you should go see your family doctor?

Foreshortening, depth and perspective. Google them.

You can see where Wonder Man's left shoulder is. You can see where his right shoulder is. You can see where his head is. You can see where his center line is. You know relative to each of those points where the W will in up. Imposed on top are the claws of Wolverine's hand. It's not complicated, you have no argument to support you claim, the fact that you believe that you do is detrimental to credibility. Stop working so hard to undermine your own intelligence.

You can see where the downstroke is and you can see where it passes under Logan's fist, that means the upstroke is going to be to the right of Logan's fist.

IOW, Logan stabbed the purple area between the red lines.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/sinister_samurai/troybingbong.png

So back to my question, Was that a yes to, Wolverine stabbed Wonder-man off panel and Simon has both a healing factor and a higher pain tolerance than Logan?

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lvhnolFy6t1r2dkso.gif

That, much like your most recent stupid theory, has already been addressed - by me - half a dozen times now. If you aren't going to read my responses to you... then why do you bother posting a reply?

So, that's a yes to Simon having a healing factor.