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Fights are in gotham.

1) Random encounter

2) X-23 stalking Batman and tries an ambush

3) Batman following X-23 and tries an ambush

who wins?

1. X-23
2. X-23
3. Bruce

I want to give x-23 the win, but batman has too many options that would result in x-23 losing. his utility belt, off the scale MA skills, & resourcefulness give him the edge in all 3 scenarios.

Any scenario in which Batman is limited to his standard gear he loses. Baring prep he has nothing on him that would give him the win over Laura.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Any scenario in which Batman is limited to his standard gear he loses. Baring prep he has nothing on him that would give him the win over Laura.

I typically agree with most of your posts, so I'm open to the possibility that you're correct; however, doesn't bruce have far more years of fighting experience? bruce (without prep) has fought steve rogers to a standstill. i haven't seen anything from laura that comes close to that. she doesn't have logan's metal skeleton so her durability is at standard levels. she's not any faster than bruce either... laura's only advantage here is her claws. even bruce's standard gear contains items which could stun or incapacitate her temporarily. how does laura win this unless bruce brawls?

X23 is faster and is also stacking adamantium claws on her ft and hand.

Originally posted by carver9
X23 is faster and is also stacking adamantium claws on her ft and hand.

1. This is Batman.
2. This is Batman.

Originally posted by carver9
X23 is faster and is also stacking adamantium claws on her ft and hand.

I know that very well, I read her monthly comic. however, bruce is so evasive & fast that I don't see her delivering enough damage before bruce rapidly ends the fight.

Originally posted by -Pr-
1. This is Batman.
2. This is Batman.

/thread

Originally posted by wildernesss
I typically agree with most of your posts, so I'm open to the possibility that you're correct; however, doesn't bruce have far more years of fighting experience? bruce (without prep) has fought steve rogers to a standstill. i haven't seen anything from laura that comes close to that. she doesn't have logan's metal skeleton so her durability is at standard levels. she's not any faster than bruce either... laura's only advantage here is her claws. even bruce's standard gear contains items which could stun or incapacitate her temporarily. how does laura win this unless bruce brawls?

Batman stalemated Cap in a non canon crossover comics. In a real fight where both companies don't have to compromise so neither looks bad, Captain America would kick Bruce's ass.

Like Wolverine, Laura has low level superhuman stats, she is physically superior to Batman and skilled enough for advantage Bruce might hold in that area to be slight. The standard weaponry Bruce carries isn't enough to over load X-23's healing factor long enough for him to get a win. None of his gasses / explosives / tassers ect are powerful enough to put Laura down for the count, her healing factor is too good.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Batman stalemated Cap in a non canon crossover comics. In a real fight where both companies don't have to compromise so neither looks bad, Captain America would kick Bruce's ass.

Like Wolverine, Laura has low level superhuman stats, she is physically superior to Batman and skilled enough for advantage Bruce might hold in that area to be slight. The standard weaponry Bruce carries isn't enough to over load X-23's healing factor long enough for him to get a win. None of his gasses / explosives / tassers ect are powerful enough to put Laura down for the count, her healing factor is too good.


hhmm, I thought the avengers/jla crossover was retroactively referenced as canon...and there wasn't much compromise when bruce
conceded that steve could beat him given enough time; therefore, for the time being, bruce did seem to legitimately & canonically fight steve to a standstill. that's a feat, I cannot see laura reproducing.

as for her being physically superior to bruce; she isn't faster than bruce. she hasn't demonstrated greater strength than bruce. just the oppositte actually, bruce has more feats of him trashing foes much stronger than he is. her combat speed isn't any better either. what we are left with is relatively average durability in terms of blunt force KO resistance & a healing factor. that's isn't enough when facing batman imo. batman has faced more skilled martials artists slashing at him with blades than x-23 has. and ultimately, bruce's gasses/explosives/tasers don't need to put laura down for the count by themselves; even if they serve only to distort her view visibility, distract, slow her down, & stun her....that is enough of a advantage for someone like bruce to exploit for a slight majority imo. 6/10 for batman.

It's not just a canonicity thing, but the ambiguity coupled with some other things made us mods decide that JLA/Avengers wouldn't be allowed as valid evidence in a debate.

Avengers/JLA is canon as far as DC comics is concerned; they reference the comic egg later on. However, per the rules of the forum, it and other crossovers are invalid for canon sources. Personally, I see Bruce being challenging to Steve for his skill and cunning, but Steve's, imo, just as skilled in H2H and has the physical advantages that Bruce can't overcome.

Anyway, now that I'm curious, what feats of Laura's suggest her being physically superior than Batman and to what degrees?

Also, what is her best healing factor feat and her average portrayal of healing like?

Batman wins besides her book was just canceled making all her feats null and void

Originally posted by JakeTheBank


Also, what is her best healing factor feat and her average portrayal of healing like?

Generally shes healing cuts and minor bruises and such in seconds. Broken bones in a minute or so. healed form being all burnt up in a few minutes, lost an arm and took a few hours to a day to grow back. Gunshots to most areas in a few seconds etc. That's how she normally is, but if you keep damaging her it starts taking longer as the following heals go.

I'm sure she has some crazy high feats and stuff but that's how it goes.

Being fair, Batman would have a very difficult time stopping Laura with raw damage. She doesn't have Wolverine's feats, but she's still pretty ridiculous. Disembowelment, grenades, and even missile strikes have failed to slow her down before. Off the top of my head, she's only been put down by Nimrod and Belasco.

Batman might actually have more luck trying to restrain her.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Avengers/JLA is canon as far as DC comics is concerned; they reference the comic egg later on. However, per the rules of the forum, it and other crossovers are invalid for canon sources. Personally, I see Bruce being challenging to Steve for his skill and cunning, but Steve's, imo, just as skilled in H2H and has the physical advantages that Bruce can't overcome.

Anyway, now that I'm curious, what feats of Laura's suggest her being physically superior than Batman and to what degrees?

Also, what is her best healing factor feat and her average portrayal of healing like?

She broke through the Danger room glass with strength alone that was classified as being unbreakable to aid Wolverine in a training session against Bishop. She has other fts that I can't think of right now.

Batman beat the JLA. shocklaugh

Originally posted by -Pr-
Batman beat the JLA. shocklaugh

I read a blog and it stated that the being that defeated the JLA was Prometheus instead of Batman. A prepped Prometheus.

Originally posted by carver9
I read a blog and it stated that the being that defeated the JLA was Prometheus instead of Batman. A prepped Prometheus.

Different instances.

I give her the win overall, Batman can win up to 4/10 if he gets in a good sneak attack. X-23 massacres if she sneaks on Bruce.

yeah proabably batman as they say he has an iron will and will find a way to outsmart her with his experience and wisdom..

Originally posted by StyleTime
grenades, and even missile strikes have failed to slow her down before. Off the top of my head, she's only been put down by Nimrod and Belasco.

Batman might actually have more luck trying to restrain her.


a direct hit from your first two examples wouldn't just slow her down; she would be in scattered pieces all over the place. she isn't logan and doesn't have the structural durability the metal skeleton provides. until someone posts scans I call total bs on that.

bruce routinely beats villains like killer croc who is stronger than laura, faster than laura, has enhanced senses like laura, razor sharp claws, and a healing factor (once again, like laura). not to mention that his durability is higher than laura's & is essentially invulnerable to most weapons. x-23 doesn't bring anything to the table that batman hasn't seen & dealt with before. he has decades of feats under his belt that suggest, without question, he can evade & outmaneuver her claws with relatively moderate effort. at least long enough to incapacitate or KO her. basically, her HF is strong enough to bounce back from a KO within seconds....but her durability isn't sufficient enough to prevent the KO.
batman held is own against bane, killer croc, clay face, deathstroke, etc. he's more than strong enough to temporarily KO laura. that's all he needs for a forum win.

I will note Laura would *destroy* Croc, and I sincerely doubt the 'faster' part.

And while his claws are sharp, they aren't as long and they aren't adamantium.

She's a much more skilled foe on a different level than KC.

Also, just to throw this out there, Batman has snuck up on Martians and Superman on more than one occasion, whose senses I would say are superior to X-23.

Originally posted by Q99
I will note Laura would *destroy* Croc, and I sincerely doubt the 'faster' part.

And while his claws are sharp, they aren't as long and they aren't adamantium.

She's a much more skilled foe on a different level than KC.


killer croc is much stronger than laura & significantly faster in terms of
running speed. their combat speed is probably equal; however, even if you think killer croc has no chance against her....what about clay face?


also, who cares if her claws are adamantium (when fighting bruce)? both KC's claws & laura's would slice through batman with relatively equal effectiveness. only the length of her claws make them more dangerous; and on that note, how is laura going to deliver a substantial strike on one of the best martial artists, escapologists, tacticians, and masters of stealth in the dc universe; laura has occassionally struggled to inflict damage on relatively unknown characters with no feats.

Unlike Killer Croc or Clayface Laura is a competent martial artists with claws on her feet making her every attack pretty much a win against Bruce.

Batman is good, but can he consistently evade her and beat her? I don't think so.

Originally posted by Bentley
Unlike Killer Croc or Clayface Laura is a competent martial artists with claws on her feet making her every attack pretty much a win against Bruce.

Batman is good, but can he consistently evade her and beat her? I don't think so.

How does he fair against Catman? Also, all he needs to do is rope her up....

Clayface, remember, is not beaten by HtH.



Such as?

Don't forget characters she has inflicted very significant damage on. Wolverine, Daken, Lady Deathstrike. Not exactly an unimpressive list.

She's fond of using some pretty tricky feats, like keeping her foot-claw hidden until she uses it in a claw-kick.

Originally posted by wildernesss
hhmm, I thought the avengers/jla crossover was retroactively referenced as canon...and there wasn't much compromise when bruce
conceded that steve could beat him given enough time; therefore, for the time being, bruce did seem to legitimately & canonically fight steve to a standstill. that's a feat, I cannot see laura reproducing.

as for her being physically superior to bruce; she isn't faster than bruce. she hasn't demonstrated greater strength than bruce. just the oppositte actually, bruce has more feats of him trashing foes much stronger than he is. her combat speed isn't any better either. what we are left with is relatively average durability in terms of blunt force KO resistance & a healing factor. that's isn't enough when facing batman imo. batman has faced more skilled martials artists slashing at him with blades than x-23 has. and ultimately, bruce's gasses/explosives/tasers don't need to put laura down for the count by themselves; even if they serve only to distort her view visibility, distract, slow her down, & stun her....that is enough of a advantage for someone like bruce to exploit for a slight majority imo. 6/10 for batman.

Laura has fought Wolverine to a stand still, which is more impressive than stalemating a fake Captain America, and she did in a comic that matters.

The Avengers / JLA cross over is canon for DC, but not for Marvel. Essentially Batman stalemated a character who just by sheer happenstance wears the same costume as Captain America and has the same name as Captain America, but isn't 616 Captain America. Batman doesn't stand much of a chance of beating Cap. It would play out like Batman's fight last fight with Azrael... only imagine that on top of all his physical advantages Azrael also happened to be more skilled in h2h combat.

Bruce's standard equipment is barely powerful enough to force Laura to bat an eyelid, and even in conjunction with his martial prowess (which will have less effect on Laura than his gear) the chances of him putting her out for a ten count before he gets eviscerated is very slim. You could start through Robins into this fight and it would take a few before the scale started to look balanced. Sans prep Laura is simply above Batman's ability to content with.

Originally posted by wildernesss
a direct hit from your first two examples wouldn't just slow her down; she would be in scattered pieces all over the place. she isn't logan and doesn't have the structural durability the metal skeleton provides. until someone posts scans I call total bs on that.

bruce routinely beats villains like killer croc who is stronger than laura, faster than laura, has enhanced senses like laura, razor sharp claws, and a healing factor (once again, like laura). not to mention that his durability is higher than laura's & is essentially invulnerable to most weapons. x-23 doesn't bring anything to the table that batman hasn't seen & dealt with before. he has decades of feats under his belt that suggest, without question, he can evade & outmaneuver her claws with relatively moderate effort. at least long enough to incapacitate or KO her. basically, her HF is strong enough to bounce back from a KO within seconds....but her durability isn't sufficient enough to prevent the KO.
batman held is own against bane, killer croc, clay face, deathstroke, etc. he's more than strong enough to temporarily KO laura. that's all he needs for a forum win.

Are you confusing Croc with Lizard, or his incarnation in Arkham Asylum?Because Croc is barely superhuman (and some times he is just a dude with a skin condition with no superhuman abilities at all). Depending on the writer he is, at best,a sometimes bullet proof, some times class 2 strength villain with not enough speed to talk about and a healing factor that isn't fast enough to repair a broken arm quickly enough to be of use in a forum match. Harvey Dent has beaten Croc in a physical h2h battle. Easily. Croc sucks.

Sometimes, in some forms, Croc is pretty dangerous, but even when he is, he's not super fast and doesn't have a healing factor.

Originally posted by -Pr-
1. This is Batman.
2. This is Batman.

For some reason, Batmans speed is HIGHLY overrated by Marvel zombies.

And that's taking into account I respect his speed based on feats, but don't try and trump him up as faster than his superiors, like they do with Logan or Cap...

Originally posted by srankmissingnin


Are you confusing Croc with Lizard, or his incarnation in Arkham Asylum?Because Croc is barely superhuman (and some times he is just a dude with a skin condition with no superhuman abilities at all). Depending on the writer he is, at best,a sometimes bullet proof, some times class 2 strength villain with not enough speed to talk about and a healing factor that isn't fast enough to repair a broken arm quickly enough to be of use in a forum match. Harvey Dent has beaten Croc in a physical h2h battle. Easily. Croc sucks.

Killer croc might be one of the most inconsistently portrayed comic characters.

Originally posted by cdtm
For some reason, Batmans speed is HIGHLY overrated by Marvel zombies.

And that's taking into account I respect his speed based on feats, but don't try and trump him up as faster than his superiors, like they do with Logan or Cap...

....and of course, I meant to say underrated.

Seriously though, Bats has more than his share of feats on par with anything Caps done, excepting in the strength department. And even in that category, we're not talking about an a deciding edge here, considering strength of a ton or so difference is basically worthless in a comic book setting.

If she punks Cap or Logan regularly, she'd probably punk Bats. If she doesn't, he has fair odds physically, and gains advantages those two wouldn't have with his utility belt. (How's X 23 against knockout gas?)

I don't know if she personally has been hit by it, but should be similar to Logan.

Originally posted by Q99
I don't know if she personally has been hit by it, but should be similar to Logan.

Is healing factor on par with Logan? Deadpool?

What if Bats kept his distance, and kept using, say, exploding batarangs?

Originally posted by cdtm
....and of course, I meant to say underrated.

Seriously though, Bats has more than his share of feats on par with anything Caps done, excepting in the strength department. And even in that category, we're not talking about an a deciding edge here, considering strength of a ton or so difference is basically worthless in a comic book setting.

If she punks Cap or Logan regularly, she'd probably punk Bats. If she doesn't, he has fair odds physically, and gains advantages those two wouldn't have with his utility belt. (How's X 23 against knockout gas?)

I think what you actually meant to say is: For some reason, Batmans speed is HIGHLY overrated by DC zombies.

And you'd be right.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lvipvilSFC1qht0swo1_400.gif

Let me know when Batman starts: running 60 mph, walking around with 40 foot telephone poles, with the transistors still attached, casually slung over his shoulder and stopping speeding cars in their tracks by grabbing the back bumper.

Originally posted by cdtm
Is healing factor on par with Logan? Deadpool?

What if Bats kept his distance, and kept using, say, exploding batarangs?

She allegedly heals faster than Logan, but it hasn't really been put to the test.

An exploding batarang will have about as much effect as snow ball with a piece of ice in it.

Originally posted by carver9
I read a blog and it stated I read a comic book.

Originally posted by cdtm
Is healing factor on par with Logan?

She is his clone. While she doesn't yet have some of the crazy regen feats he does, Laura's criticized him for not healing fast enough before.

So a bit faster than normal Wolverine.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

Let me know when Batman starts: running 60 mph, walking around with 40 foot telephone poles, with the transistors still attached, casually slung over his shoulder and stopping speeding cars in their tracks by grabbing the back bumper.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=4984455

I think Bats can keep up.

I already admitted Cap is stronger, but this is comic books.. Venoms defeated Carnage, and Cap himself has beaten characters in the 15 ton range, showing how unimportant minor strength advantages are (US Agent?)

Originally posted by -Pr-
Batman beat the JLA. shocklaugh

Originally posted by wildernesss
a direct hit from your first two examples wouldn't just slow her down; she would be in scattered pieces all over the place. she isn't logan and doesn't have the structural durability the metal skeleton provides. until someone posts scans I call total bs on that.
What part on you calling BS on? The fact that they happened or that she wasn't blown to pieces?

Comics don't quite work like real life, so I'm surprised that's being called into question; however, I'll get the scans if you really want to see them.
Originally posted by cdtm
For some reason, Batmans speed is HIGHLY by Marvel zombies.

Heh. I remember when we had to convince you that real life boxers would be like statues to Batman. You thought Jin and Mugen stood a chance against him too. Has your opinion changed recently?
Originally posted by cdtm
Is healing factor on par with Logan? Deadpool?
As of now, they would beat her in a feat war.
Originally posted by Existere
I read a comic book.

Originally posted by StyleTime


What part on you calling BS on? The fact that they happened or that she wasn't blown to pieces?

Comics don't quite work like real life, so I'm surprised that's being called into question; however, I'll get the scans if you really want to see them.






Both. she doesn't have the structural durability that logan's metal skeleton provides. a direct hit from either of those attacks would leave her in scattered pieces; her HF would not be able to diminish the immediate effect of that type of attack due to her average durability.

as for your second part....then batman wins easily. the amount of damage he has absorbed coupled with his feats of strength/speed are beyond the capacity of anyone in real life; therefore, (according to your logic) he isn't beholden or limited to any kind of real world logic & his best feats (like defeating the JLA) settle the matter quite quickly. batman wins with ease.

Correct me if I'm wrong because I mostly read Superman/Batman when it comes to the two of them showing up together, but wasn't there a conversation between Clark and Kara about how Clark let's Bruce sneak up on him?

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Laura has fought Wolverine to a stand still, which is more impressive than stalemating a fake Captain America, and she did in a comic that matters.

The Avengers / JLA cross over is canon for DC, but not for Marvel. Essentially Batman stalemated a character who just by sheer happenstance wears the same costume as Captain America and has the same name as Captain America, but isn't 616 Captain America. Batman doesn't stand much of a chance of beating Cap. It would play out like Batman's fight last fight with Azrael... only imagine that on top of all his physical advantages Azrael also happened to be more skilled in h2h combat.

Bruce's standard equipment is barely powerful enough to force Laura to bat an eyelid, and even in conjunction with his martial prowess (which will have less effect on Laura than his gear) the chances of him putting her out for a ten count before he gets eviscerated is very slim. You could start through Robins into this fight and it would take a few before the scale started to look balanced. Sans prep Laura is simply above Batman's ability to content with.



Are you confusing Croc with Lizard, or his incarnation in Arkham Asylum?Because Croc is barely superhuman (and some times he is just a dude with a skin condition with no superhuman abilities at all). Depending on the writer he is, at best,a sometimes bullet proof, some times class 2 strength villain with not enough speed to talk about and a healing factor that isn't fast enough to repair a broken arm quickly enough to be of use in a forum match. Harvey Dent has beaten Croc in a physical h2h battle. Easily. Croc sucks.


When laura fought logan to a standstill it was because logan didn't want to hurt her and held back. period. a non holding back logan would destroy her. period. end of story. and don't say that logan's son has fought laura to a standstill and defeated logan too. the only time logan's son has beaten logan is through a sneak attack. every other time, logan demolished him when it was a fair fight. however..... that, and the jla/avengers crossover are pretty much irrelevant compared to batman defeating the JLA within continuity; so if were going to toss relatively
rare & questionable feats around....

batman beating the jla > laura fighting a holding back wolverine

Except it wasn't exactly a standstill, she was bleeding him out, and he was getting pretty serious as it became clear she was going for the kill (since he did after all want to stop her). Laura was beating a Wolverine who was holding back at first. There's also no reason why he shouldn't *dodge* even when holding back, so it still speaks well of her offensive skills.

Again, she's fought really dangerous people aside from Wolverine. Daken and Lady Deathstrike too. She inflicted fatal wounds on Lady DS, and Lady Deathstrike is a superhuman in strength and speed cyborg with healing factor who wasn't holding back in the slightest.



The former was a prep thing, though. That doesn't speak to his non-prep hand to hand combat skills, which is what's required here. He didn't take out Superman with a punch or Martian Manhunter with a Judo flip.

X-23 in a random encounter to much going for her for a normal human to take on in my opinion. Don't see how bats takes her down w/ standard gear. (maybe gas though...)

Batgod w/ prep..he owned a couple of white martians..( still don't know if that is pis or not to this day) loved morrison's jla though. loved his batman too..

Originally posted by Q99
Except it wasn't exactly a standstill, she was bleeding him out, and he was getting pretty serious as it became clear she was going for the kill (since he did after all want to stop her). Laura was beating a Wolverine who was holding back at first. There's also no reason why he shouldn't *dodge* even when holding back, so it still speaks well of her offensive skills.

Again, she's fought really dangerous people aside from Wolverine. Daken and Lady Deathstrike too. She inflicted fatal wounds on Lady DS, and Lady Deathstrike is a superhuman in strength and speed cyborg with healing factor who wasn't holding back in the slightest.



The former was a prep thing, though. That doesn't speak to his non-prep hand to hand combat skills, which is what's required here. He didn't take out Superman with a punch or Martian Manhunter with a Judo flip.


aside from that lady DS feat, nothing there is really that impressive when examined under scrutiny.

as for batman without prep.....how about him knocking hawkman down
to the ground & drawing blood with one punch. hawkman is so much stronger & durable than laura that it isn't even funny.

but what really should be taken into account is the fact that batman has been able to evade defeat at the hands of deathstroke on so many occassions. if batman can evade a sword being swung at him by someone fast enough to catch the flash, with the strength of ten men, decades of feats, equal if not greater MA skills than laura, much more durable than laura, and a healing factor as well....then how would x-23 have any better results? ALL of slade's stats, with the exception of his healing factor, are greater than laura's. if batman can evade the blade of someone with reflexes fast enough to severely injure the flash, how can laura compete with that?

If by 'scrutiny' you mean 'lowballing'.

And you do mean 'lowballing'. The Wolverine fight was a pretty impressive one under scrutiny, because Logan was not just letting her hit, nor was he unwilling to hit her (she has a HF after all), and he serious'd up pretty soon into the fight. She gained an advantage because he didn't start serious, but it was still a real battle.



Because she's fast, very evasive, very skilled, has more weapons than Slade, and likes to keep her foot claws as a nasty surprise?

And she does have the better healing factor bit going for her.



Because his blade isn't that fast, he just anticipates where Flash is going to be and lets him run into it, and street levels evade attacks from him often, like even pre-Nightwing and early-Nightwing Dick could do some evasion.

Are we actually considering what Slade did in Identity Crisis as anything except PIS?

Originally posted by nwg202
X-23 in a random encounter to much going for her for a normal human to take on in my opinion.

Define "normal human", because comic book humans aren't really normal.

Can she pwn Daredevil in a random encounter? Cassandra Cain? Captain America?

Originally posted by wildernesss
Both. she doesn't have the structural durability that logan's metal skeleton provides. a direct hit from either of those attacks would leave her in scattered pieces; her HF would not be able to diminish the immediate effect of that type of attack due to her average durability.

as for your second part....then batman wins easily. the amount of damage he has absorbed coupled with his feats of strength/speed are beyond the capacity of anyone in real life; therefore, (according to your logic) he isn't beholden or limited to any kind of real world logic & his best feats (like defeating the JLA) settle the matter quite quickly. batman wins with ease.
I apologize for the wait, but I couldn't access my scanner until a few moments ago. This is the most damage I recall her taking from a grenade or similar explosion. While she is quite crispy after the airstrike, she is a far cry from "blown apart."
http://img140.imagevenue.com/loc133/th_851717756_SCAN0020_122_133lo.JPG http://img290.imagevenue.com/loc392/th_851730521_SCAN0019_122_392lo.JPG
http://img176.imagevenue.com/loc497/th_851681946_SCAN0016_122_497lo.JPG http://img5.imagevenue.com/loc172/th_851694194_SCAN0017_122_172lo.JPG http://img235.imagevenue.com/loc502/th_851706709_SCAN0018_122_502lo.JPG
Originally posted by wildernesss
as for your second part....then batman wins easily. the amount of damage he has absorbed coupled with his feats of strength/speed are beyond the capacity of anyone in real life; therefore, (according to your logic) he isn't beholden or limited to any kind of real world logic & his best feats (like defeating the JLA) settle the matter quite quickly. batman wins with ease.
No, that's not "according to my logic." The argument against your Batman example is PIS, not "it's unrealistic." If we base these discussions on realism, this entire forum is pointless. Batman kicks people through doors built to withstand missiles. X-23 has claws and heals from mortal wounds nigh-instantaneously. Superman hears people speak on other planets. These are facts of the comics, and "it's not realistic" is irrelevant in a discussion like this.

Honestly I could see batman gassing and restraining with wire in Random encounter and prep for Batman. I don't think he'd be able to get into a match of fisticuffs and win but if he drops a gas bomb that distracts her for a short while and entangles her with mono-filament wire/wire. I could see him winning the majority through that tactic if he can get her good enough that she can't cut her way loose.

Originally posted by Uriel005
Honestly I could see batman gassing and restraining with wire in Random encounter and prep for Batman. I don't think he'd be able to get into a match of fisticuffs and win but if he drops a gas bomb that distracts her for a short while and entangles her with mono-filament wire/wire. I could see him winning the majority through that tactic if he can get her good enough that she can't cut her way loose.

And it's not like Batman doesn't have rogues he can't defeat hth, or rarely faces in h2h combat..

Mr. Freeze could probably beat any of the Wolverine healing factor types, and he could almost definitely beat Batman if he tried a direct confrontation..

Depending on writer or incarnation, he's had all kinds of stuff that could deal with your meta brick healing factor sort, like goo gun that basically "webs someone up" in goo.

Originally posted by cdtm
And it's not like Batman doesn't have rogues he can't defeat hth, or rarely faces in h2h combat..

Mr. Freeze could probably beat any of the Wolverine healing factor types, and he could almost definitely beat Batman if he tried a direct confrontation..

Depending on writer or incarnation, he's had all kinds of stuff that could deal with your meta brick healing factor sort, like goo gun that basically "webs someone up" in goo.

Which is why we differentiate between standard gear and prep time. Batman certainly has the means to beat someone like Laura, he just doesn't have it on his standard gear. Batman's utility belt isn't a bag of holding, he can't just reach in and pull out anything he wants and he doesn't walk around strapped with mother boxes and Green Lantern Rings. His standard gear is composed of some combination of sonics, light munitions, high volt electroshock weaponry, plus a variety of Batarangs and gasses. Random encounter Batman is mostly equipped to deal with primarily human - low level superhuman threats. Default Batman doesn't run around with his Insider Armor or his top end weaponry, he deals with street level problems, so he runs around in Kevlar and kung-fus dudes in their face. In such a scenario he simply lacks the means to take down Laura.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Which is why we differentiate between standard gear and prep time. Batman certainly has the means to beat someone like Laura, he just doesn't have it on his standard gear. Batman's utility belt isn't a bag of holding, he can't just reach in and pull out anything he wants and he doesn't walk around strapped with mother boxes and Green Lantern Rings. His standard gear is composed of some combination of sonics, light munitions, high volt electroshock weaponry, plus a variety of Batarangs and gasses. Random encounter Batman is mostly equipped to deal with primarily human - low level superhuman threats. Default Batman doesn't run around with his Insider Armor or his top end weaponry, he deals with street level problems, so he runs around in Kevlar and kung-fus dudes in their face. In such a scenario he simply lacks the means to take down Laura. Like I said before I see a gas and wire restraint being a pretty big problem for Laura.

Originally posted by Uriel005
Like I said before I see a gas and wire restraint being a pretty big problem for Laura.

If you thought that... you'd be wrong.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
If you thought that... you'd be wrong. Any particular reason? I mean hands down I'd give it to Laura in a straight up fight but I just don't see Bruce doing that. Like I said the biggest problem is if he can restrain her beyond the use of her claws. I think his wire is strong enough to restrain her from being able to cut through if he catches her for a second or two with gas or an electrical gadget.

No reason it couldn't work, imo. His lines are pretty strong.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Which is why we differentiate between standard gear and prep time. Batman certainly has the means to beat someone like Laura, he just doesn't have it on his standard gear. Batman's utility belt isn't a bag of holding, he can't just reach in and pull out anything he wants and he doesn't walk around strapped with mother boxes and Green Lantern Rings. His standard gear is composed of some combination of sonics, light munitions, high volt electroshock weaponry, plus a variety of Batarangs and gasses. Random encounter Batman is mostly equipped to deal with primarily human - low level superhuman threats. Default Batman doesn't run around with his Insider Armor or his top end weaponry, he deals with street level problems, so he runs around in Kevlar and kung-fus dudes in their face. In such a scenario he simply lacks the means to take down Laura. Everything you said there was wrong. If this was 20 wrongs making a right, you'd be right, but as of now, you're the worst.

Even with standard stuff, his belts usually brimming with flashbangs, sonics, explosives, razer sharp cutting batarangs.. Think he's even used scarecrow gas once or twice. (Scarecrow fear gas and yellow would be an awesome way for him to pay Hal back for the right cross, btw. )

If he dumps all that stuff on X 23 at once and tries to snare her in an entrapment device, he could pin her down long enough to qualify as a win, at least.

No one's saying he'd be able to win h2h without abusing the gadgets.

plus, he does have the home advantage...

Originally posted by StyleTime
I apologize for the wait, but I couldn't access my scanner until a few moments ago. This is the most damage I recall her taking from a grenade or similar explosion. While she is quite crispy after the airstrike, she is a far cry from "blown apart."
http://img140.imagevenue.com/loc133/th_851717756_SCAN0020_122_133lo.JPG http://img290.imagevenue.com/loc392/th_851730521_SCAN0019_122_392lo.JPG
http://img176.imagevenue.com/loc497/th_851681946_SCAN0016_122_497lo.JPG http://img5.imagevenue.com/loc172/th_851694194_SCAN0017_122_172lo.JPG http://img235.imagevenue.com/loc502/th_851706709_SCAN0018_122_502lo.JPG

No, that's not "according to my logic." The argument against your Batman example is PIS, not "it's unrealistic." If we base these discussions on realism, this entire forum is pointless. Batman kicks people through doors built to withstand missiles. X-23 has claws and heals from mortal wounds nigh-instantaneously. Superman hears people speak on other planets. These are facts of the comics, and "it's not realistic" is irrelevant in a discussion like this.

agreed, if batman can kick people through doors built to withstand missles, he can KO laura.

If she stands there and allows him to kick her for a prolonged period, yes.

Originally posted by StyleTime
If she stands there and allows him to kick her for a prolonged period, yes.


right, exactly. or he can just toss his flashbangs & explosives at her
& incapacitate her with his lines. whatever he feels like.

Originally posted by Uriel005
Any particular reason? I mean hands down I'd give it to Laura in a straight up fight but I just don't see Bruce doing that. Like I said the biggest problem is if he can restrain her beyond the use of her claws. I think his wire is strong enough to restrain her from being able to cut through if he catches her for a second or two with gas or an electrical gadget.

Because her healing factor is too strong for her to be effected by Batman's standard gases in any noticeable way, and even if we ignore her claws, she is too strong and too fast to be restrained by wire. Laura was stated peak human at the age of seven before her mutation even kicked in (and the scientist that created her were disappointed that she was "only" peak human), now she is low level superhuman in both strength and speed.

It will take more than wire, flash bangs, high voltage tasers and low yield munitions to take Laura down, and Batman simple doesn't have the fire power to finish the job in his standard weaponry.

Originally posted by wildernesss
right, exactly. or he can just toss his flashbangs & explosives at her
& incapacitate her with his lines. whatever he feels like.
She is fighting back in this match.

quick question: how do healing factors affect tasers? Because surely it shouldn't matter if you have one, you're still getting taken down by one.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
quick question: how do healing factors affect tasers? Because surely it shouldn't matter if you have one, you're still getting taken down by one. Good question. I see no one can give an answer to this.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Good question. I see no one can give an answer to this.

I could, but then I'm smarter than you.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
quick question: how do healing factors affect tasers? Because surely it shouldn't matter if you have one, you're still getting taken down by one.

Healing factors are less effective in the resistance of tasers than pcp. dur

Seriously though... what are you talking about? And how do you come to such an asinine conclusion?

Originally posted by Wang 2.1
I could, but then I'm smarter than you. Anyone who can answer that is a Wolverine fan. Nothing good comes out of that.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Anyone who can answer that is a Wolverine fan. Nothing good comes out of that.

I disagree, Shadowcat and Jubilee both lost their virginity through being Wolverine fans. I've seen the cartoon!

Originally posted by Wang 2.1
I disagree, Shadowcat and Jubilee both lost their virginity through being Wolverine fans. I've seen the cartoon! You raise a swell point, but they are women, and therefore rape was a heavy influence.

Especially with Wolverine

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
You raise a swell point, but they are women, and therefore rape was a heavy influence.

Well they were girls but they certainly felt like 'real women' after the hairy hundred + year old dwarf had finished with them.

Originally posted by cdtm
Even with standard stuff, his belts usually brimming with flashbangs, sonics, explosives, razer sharp cutting batarangs.. Think he's even used scarecrow gas once or twice. (Scarecrow fear gas and yellow would be an awesome way for him to pay Hal back for the right cross, btw. )

If he dumps all that stuff on X 23 at once and tries to snare her in an entrapment device, he could pin her down long enough to qualify as a win, at least.

No one's saying he'd be able to win h2h without abusing the gadgets.
Batman's standard gear isn't enough to take out X-23. To take out Laura he'd need to be "loaded for bear", which isn't consistent with his character. Batman is a much more defensive fighter than she is, which normally works very well of him, however, best case scenario he is able to dodge her claws and foot blade. So what, he can't do it forever. Combine superb fighting skills and Laura's healing factor, you have a ferocity and endurance that Batman could never compete with. It would be a lot like the Bane fight. Batman would end up exhausted and destroyed.

I'm sorry but can someone post a scan of Laura not cutting restraints but actually snapping high tensile strength wires. I mean even at slightly superhuman levels I just don't see her snapping wire that can easily support a person dropping at terminal velocity.

Originally posted by Uriel005
I'm sorry but can someone post a scan of Laura not cutting restraints but actually snapping high tensile strength wires. I mean even at slightly superhuman levels I just don't see her snapping wire that can easily support a person dropping at terminal velocity.

Urinal scans or it's not true!

Originally posted by Brockalizer
Batman's standard gear isn't enough to take out X-23. To take out Laura he'd need to be "loaded for bear", which isn't consistent with his character. Batman is a much more defensive fighter than she is, which normally works very well of him, however, best case scenario he is able to dodge her claws and foot blade. So what, he can't do it forever. Combine superb fighting skills and Laura's healing factor, you have a ferocity and endurance that Batman could never compete with. It would be a lot like the Bane fight. Batman would end up exhausted and destroyed.

Why would a healing factor affect a taser's effectiveness?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Why would a healing factor affect a taser's effectiveness?

Yeah. It would heal the damage, but an electrical current flowing through her should still affect her muscles and nervous system the same way it would affect anyone else.

Originally posted by cdtm
Yeah. It would heal the damage, but an electrical current flowing through her should still affect her muscles and nervous system the same way it would affect anyone else. indeed and high tensile strength wire tends to work on people under class 15 strength regardless.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Why would a healing factor affect a taser's effectiveness?

Because...

http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lsdun88auL1r42tn5o1_500.gif

... that's what a healing factor does? Shocking!!!!

Why wouldn't it? That's what a healing factor does, it heals damage. Wolverine has dealt with tasers, lightening, electrocution, nerve toxins, pressure points, and every variety of attack that targets the nervous system, and he has done it without batting an eye lid. His nervous system isn't mysteriously immune from his healing factor. Read a comic.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Why would a healing factor affect a taser's effectiveness? Assuming that he's even be able to effectively use such a clumsy weapon against someone with the skill set of X-23, the tazer, if it has any effect at all, it would only last while Batman keeps his finger on the trigger. Once he lets up on the juice to follow up with another attack it would take a split second for her to recover. Batman could connect with Batarangs, judo chops, and thrust kicks all day and still not slow Laura down, while she on the other hand only needs a few well timed claw strikes or toe kicks.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Because...

http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lsdun88auL1r42tn5o1_500.gif

... that's what a healing factor does? Shocking!!!!

Why wouldn't it? That's what a healing factor does, it heals damage. Wolverine has dealt with tasers, lightening, electrocution, nerve toxins, pressure points, and every variety of attack that targets the nervous system, and he has done it without batting an eye lid. His nervous system isn't mysteriously immune from his healing factor. Read a comic. even though the tasers effectiveness actually has nothing to do with damaging someones nerves... it hurts.. and it causes the body to send misinterpreted signals which is what causes the numbness and lack of control.

Originally posted by Uriel005
even though the tasers effectiveness actually has nothing to do with damaging someones nerves... it hurts.. and it causes the body to send misinterpreted signals which is what causes the numbness and lack of control.

What you just described... is the nervous system. lmao

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
What you just described... is the nervous system. lmao ... HF undoes damage... Tasers effectiveness is not based on the damage that they are doing... it's not damaging the nervous system though that can be a side effect. What a taser does is tricks the nervous system into randomly firing... and it's a constant effect while the thing is active. There is nothing for x-23 to heal from that would stop a tasers effectiveness.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Because...

http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lsdun88auL1r42tn5o1_500.gif



Attack the block is awesome.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Because...

http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lsdun88auL1r42tn5o1_500.gif

... that's what a healing factor does? Shocking!!!!

Why wouldn't it? That's what a healing factor does, it heals damage. Wolverine has dealt with tasers, lightening, electrocution, nerve toxins, pressure points, and every variety of attack that targets the nervous system, and he has done it without batting an eye lid. His nervous system isn't mysteriously immune from his healing factor. Read a comic.

Hey, I get that you like X-23 in this fight, and people have probably been sarcastic to you in the past- but no need to be sarcastic to my question. Yes, a healing factor heals damage - too bad there's no damage being done here. The physical effects will still be present.

I'll put it this way. If Mr freeze froze LAura, would the magic healing factor mean that the ice would magically melt? Sure, damage from the ice would be healed, but shed still be in a block of ice.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
What you just described... is the nervous system. lmao

You hit the nail on the head. Which is why a healing factor shouldn't affect a taser. Lmao.

Does Laura have any feats of ignoring taser shocks?

Because I know Wolverine does at least once or twice.

Originally posted by Mr.Mxyzptlk
Does Laura have any feats of ignoring taser shocks?

Because I know Wolverine does at least once or twice.

I've no doubt that he has, I'm not stupid enough to try and apply the real world to comics lol. It was just a simple question because I genuinely wanted to learn, and asked politely how it would affect its effectiveness.

Originally posted by Mr.Mxyzptlk
Does Laura have any feats of ignoring taser shocks?

Because I know Wolverine does at least once or twice. Are you implying that if Locan can X-23 can?

These fights all take place in gotham. So shouldnt bruce have access to his safe houses/weapon lockers throughout the city and have remote access to batcar/plane.

Batmans also used liquid nitrogen.

Not as good as a Mr. Freeze gun, but should still be worth something.

Also, hasn't Logan had trouble with gasses in several stories? Pretty sure I've read more than one where it messed him up pretty badly, and Batman uses heavy duty gasses (Enough to put down a herd of elephants, according to one story.)

So if he struggles with them, there's not much reason to think X-23 wouldn't too, is there?

Originally posted by Raptor22
These fights all take place in gotham. So shouldnt bruce have access to his safe houses/weapon lockers throughout the city and have remote access to batcar/plane.

No, it doesn't work that way.

With prep he could simply grab a Mr. Freeze gun.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Are you implying that if Locan can X-23 can?

If I was, I wouldn't be asking if she did. But it was being implied that a taser would be equally effective against Laura and Logan.

And if memory serves, Logan tanked a cattle prod when he lost his healing factor and was dying from adamantium poisoning.

Originally posted by Uriel005
even though the tasers effectiveness actually has nothing to do with damaging someones nerves... it hurts.. and it causes the body to send misinterpreted signals which is what causes the numbness and lack of control. Anyone who can keep fighting without skipping a beat while half their body is on fire/melted off will shrug off a taser shock. Even regular human beings can fight off a taser shock if they're big enough or mad enough.

Originally posted by cdtm

Also, hasn't Logan had trouble with gasses in several stories? Pretty sure I've read more than one where it messed him up pretty badly, and Batman uses heavy duty gasses (Enough to put down a herd of elephants, according to one story.)

So if he struggles with them, there's not much reason to think X-23 wouldn't too, is there? When Logan struggles with a gas it's usually because it was specifically designed to take down someone like him, it's much more powerful than the stuff Batman typically walks around with.

Originally posted by Brockalizer
When Logan struggles with a gas it's usually because it was specifically designed to take down someone like him, it's much more powerful than the stuff Batman typically walks around with.

Well, I'd bet Scarecrow or Joker toxin are up there, and he does walk around with that as standard.

Hell, an entire arc called Last Laugh featured Joker Gas affecting everyone in the DCU, including bricks like Doomsday.

Originally posted by cdtm
Well, I'd bet Scarecrow or Joker toxin are up there, and he does walk around with that as standard.

Hell, an entire arc called Last Laugh featured Joker Gas affecting everyone in the DCU, including bricks like Doomsday.

He has antidotes with him, but I'm pretty sure Joker toxin is not something he'd carry around.

.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Anyone who can keep fighting without skipping a beat while half their body is on fire/melted off will shrug off a taser shock. Even regular human beings can fight off a taser shock if they're big enough or mad enough.

So how would a healing factor affect a taser's effectiveness? A regular human being, with no healing factor (ok, we all heal, you know what I mean...), can fight it off if they're hopped up on drugs or something. Essentially, if they don't feel pain, I guess. So how would adding a healing factor reduce its effectiveness? Surely X-23 and Logan still feel pain, right?

And yes, I know what the X-23 supporters are going to do - they're going to jump on their stage and loudly proclaim that X-23 can withstand high amounts of pain yada-yada. Is that a result of her healing factor, then?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So how would a healing factor affect a taser's effectiveness? A regular human being, with no healing factor (ok, we all heal, you know what I mean...), can fight it off if they're hopped up on drugs or something. Essentially, if they don't feel pain, I guess. So how would adding a healing factor reduce its effectiveness? Surely X-23 and Logan still feel pain, right?

And yes, I know what the X-23 supporters are going to do - they're going to jump on their stage and loudly proclaim that X-23 can withstand high amounts of pain yada-yada. Is that a result of her healing factor, then? no... that pain tolerance is a result of upbringing and life experiences... Their pain tolerance is very high and I don't take that away from them. I just think that the effect will be enough for batman to restrain her,

Originally posted by Uriel005
no... that pain tolerance is a result of upbringing and life experiences... Their pain tolerance is very high and I don't take that away from them. I just think that the effect will be enough for batman to restrain her, So a white trash meth head can shrug off a tazer, but a mutant with a suped up healing factor and a pain fetish can't? Interesting. Logan and Laura have both forgotten more about pain than most of Batman's adversaries will ever know.

Originally posted by Brockalizer
So a white trash meth head can shrug off a tazer, but a mutant with a suped up healing factor and a pain fetish can't? Interesting. Logan and Laura have both forgotten more about pain than most of Batman's adversaries will ever know.

That's my question (which to this day still has not been answered). What does a healing factor bring to the table???

Originally posted by Brockalizer
So a white trash meth head can shrug off a tazer Whoa whoa whoa whoa.

White people are outstanding members of society who never get tazed unless the cops are of different skin.

But white trash aren't "real" white people.

Originally posted by cdtm
But white trash aren't "real" white people. I figured that the term "wigger" would be too offensive.

Originally posted by cdtm
No, it doesn't work that way.

With prep he could simply grab a Mr. Freeze gun. i dont see how it would be prep to call the batmobile/plane. All he has to do is push a button on a remote which is part of his standard gear, he's done it many times before, and the fight is in gotham. I dont see the problem.

Nor I. Hell, you could argue that the Batmobile/Batplane is standard gear, otherwise how else would he get out of the Batcave, call a taxi??

The rules covers this:

Originally posted by cdtm
The rules covers this:

My bad!

Originally posted by cdtm
The rules covers this: thats gay. Thanks for taking the time to look it up and post it. Im not gonna argue it because it says flat out he cant. But does anyone else think that it would be more reasonable for him to have access to his car than hal to have access to the watchtower. I mean he fits the criteria in the rules right there (probably more than a lantern for watchtower ) but then it specificaly discludes it. I think its weird. Oh well. Thanks again.

One more question. So in a fight between a GL and the Hulk taking place in metropolis the gl could just fly up to the watxhtower and use its giant laser cannon if he runs out of options. Because according to the rules if its set in the dcu then a gl has access to watchtower.

Originally posted by Raptor22
One more question. So in a fight between a GL and the Hulk taking place in metropolis the gl could just fly up to the watxhtower and use its giant laser cannon if he runs out of options. Because according to the rules if its set in the dcu then a gl has access to watchtower.

Maybe not Guy, because no-one likes him.....

But yes, it would seem that way. It seems that the GL would also have access to the trophy room of the JLA, which includes all of their villains' most powerful tech....

Bump. Because I can. Also sick of all the cosmic vs threads. We need some good street level threads on page 1.

BTW X FTW.

X23 batman couldnt sneak up on her he would smell him or hear him.

And she has to many attitubutes. For him to handle

X-23.