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Scenario 1:
Location: Dooku's hangar
Sabers:
Force:
All Out:

Scenario 2:
Palpatine's Office-Combatants may retreat to the Grand Convocation chamber.
Sabers:
Force:
All Out:

Way to troll.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Way to troll.

I am curious. I personally think Dooku is more powerful. Not sure by how much though.

Nyriss was apparently beating Scourge and the Exile at once on raw power? I think that's above Dooku... though, granted, the Exile was kinda nerfed in the book which makes it less impressive than it could be.

I am not totally familiar with Nyriss's powers, but I personally think Dooku is has lots of skill in battle and could use cheap tactics to deafeat Nyriss in the end...

Dooku would do anything to win.

That's nice, but Scourge isn't exactly the play-fair type either, and it was two-on-one against some *major* badasses that Nyriss handled.

Originally posted by Q99
Nyriss was apparently beating Scourge and the Exile at once on raw power? I think that's above Dooku... though, granted, the Exile was kinda nerfed in the book which makes it less impressive than it could be.

The Exile was never considered to be of immense marshal might. Meetra's greatest strength was that she was a brilliant tactician, and she was a natural leader. Considering that Dooku with a gesture was able to best Jedi Masters like Kenobi, I really don't see that as a great feat.

You're kidding right? They both were considered powerful in the force. Obiwan was what, average? I'm not sure how subduing an average jedi (with exceptional combat prowess) with the force is somehow more impressive than fighting and winning against a powerful sith lord and powerful jedi. Nyriss wtfpwns Dooku in the force. Sabers might go differently.

lol

Shut it Emi. Everyone knows that Dooku is only an above average Force user as Our Imperial Leader LeGeND has decreed.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
You're kidding right? They both were considered powerful in the force. Obiwan was what, average? I'm not sure how subduing an average jedi (with exceptional combat prowess) with the force is somehow more impressive than fighting and winning against a powerful sith lord and powerful jedi. Nyriss wtfpwns Dooku in the force. Sabers might go differently.

A quote directly from Master Vandar.
"True, and average student of the force, but a unique strength she is a natural leader."
She only became powerful from absorbing the power of her fallen foes and even then when has she defeated anyone of note in pure martial prowess.
In her battle against Darth Nihilus, his own greed greatly weakened him when he tried to consume her.
In her battle with Darth Sion, her use of Dun Moch, not her skill with a blade is what killed him.
Darth Traya, though formidable was shown to be insta-pwned by one TK from Darth Nihilus, then given a bare-handed beat down by Darth Sion.
Not to mention that she was already down one hand by the time she dueled the Exile. One could also argue that Darth Traya loved the Exile too much to truly seek to destroy her. After all Meetra was Traya's dream incarnate, a being that was a hole in the force.

Where are you getting this from? You'll also have to explain how the hell Vandar would even know this considering he was long dead before the Exile destroyed the Triumvirate.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Where are you getting this from? You'll also have to explain how the hell Vandar would even know this considering he was long dead before the Exile destroyed the Triumvirate.
The Vandar quote ends in the first line.

Miz, this assertion is wrong:For several reasons:there is a strong implication that N. hit Traya with a "technique in the Force against which there is no defense." The game implies that it was not TKeven if it was TK, N. has one of the most incredible TK feats in the mythos (outpacing Starkiller and Bane by many orders of magnitude in power and control, respectively). So even if he had used TK, there would be no damage done to Traya's reputation.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Where are you getting this from? You'll also have to explain how the hell Vandar would even know this considering he was long dead before the Exile destroyed the Triumvirate.

This was when Surik was young. Up until post-Malachor Surik was average. A brilliant tactician, but an average Jedi.
As stated by the Masters at the Council Traya interrupted, she grew stronger with each person that she defeated. What feats to the Triumvirate have?
Sion: Defeating Lonna Vash who is featless
Nihilus was poweruful, but his greatest power was his undoing.
Traya, aside from being stronger than Sion is also featless.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Traya, aside from being stronger than Sion is also featless.

Not really.

Ah yes, downplaying the Triumvirate now, good attempt. One destroyed an entire planet through the force, another one destroyed 3 members of the councils with a drain, and the 3rd one was immortal on dark side planets. Care to try again?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Fair point, I forgot about Nihilus ripping his fleet from the orbit of Malachor.

As Malachor V was a world heavily steeped in the dark side of the Force, as Vjun or Korriban or Byss, I'm not certain that we can credit that particular feat to Nihilus alone, as he would have enormous reservoirs of power to draw from outside his own bodily energies.

He didn't need a dark side planet to destroy Visas' people and the Jedi on there.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
He didn't need a dark side planet to destroy Visas' people and the Jedi on there.

Which is probably why I didn't include that feat in my response.

But I did.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Oh right and she drained 3 Jedi Masters. An attack which is useless against the Exile.

She also smacked them around a little before hand. And was able to communicate telepathically across galactic distances, mask her presence from powerful Jedi (And its implied become invisible. The Disciple doesn't even know she's on the ship until you make him a jedi) and wield 3 lightsabers at once telekinetically.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Ah yes, downplaying the Triumvirate now, good attempt. One destroyed an entire planet through the force, another one destroyed 3 members of the councils with a drain, and the 3rd one was immortal on dark side planets. Care to try again?

You conveniently ignore that it was not Meeta Surik's martial prowess that prevailed agains the Triumvirate. Nihilus was brought to his knees shortly before being killed. The Exile didn't defeat him because she was some God in the force, she was there because she was a hole in the force created from Malachor V.
^Kreia is basically a baby Nihilus. If Nihilus failed to drain her, neither could Kriea.
Also since when has being on the Council ~ Being the greatest in martial prowess. If she force drained 3 Coleman Trebors that's hardly a feat.
The third one got killed with Dun Moch, and a good speech. Why? Because Meetra is a natural leader, her willpower is one of her greatest strengths.

Originally posted by Nephthys
She also smacked them around a little before hand. And was able to communicate telepathically across galactic distances, mask her presence from powerful Jedi (And its implied become invisible. The Disciple doesn't even know she's on the ship until you make him a jedi) and wield 3 lightsabers at once telekinetically.
She force pushed them away, then slapped Vrook down one more time for good measure. Where did she communicate over galactic distances? And I hardly consider Padawan Mical a powerful Jedi.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
But I did.

The claim that Nihilus didn't need a dark side nexus to annihilate the peoples of Katarr isn't germane to the discussion between myself and Mizukage, as I do not contest Nihilus's abilities beyond that particular feat.

Good lord, the amount of terrible rationalizing is just....wow

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
She force pushed them away, then slapped Vrook down one more time for good measure. Where did she communicate over galactic distances? And I hardly consider Padawan Mical a powerful Jedi.

She communicates with Atris telepathically. And Atris was also unable to see her or sense her presence when she was at the academy. Also she was able to read Attons mind despite him being trained to stop that kind of shit.

Originally posted by PlagueiSpoilers
Hi, I'm a new member. In the interest of full disclosure, would you mind elaborating a little?
Not at all by good (wo)man!

The KotOR (Knights of the Old Republic) game series is one of the most popular Star Wars franchises. Because they exist as games, however, many of their feats are consigned to non-canon. However, things that are established through narration, cutscenes, or other immutable facts about the universe are canon. So there are some parts of these games which we can use in these matches.

One of my favorite characters is Darth Nihilus, whose name is absurdly difficult to spell. I abbreviate him as just 'N.' The game makes clear that he used telekinesis to drag the Ravager out of the gravity well of the Mass Shadow Generator in order to escape that planet. The incredible weight of a starship, combined with the vast shear forces that would apply along an object as large as a space ship would require vast amounts of power (to escape the gravity at all) and control (to prevent the ship from falling apart in the ascent) to lift at all.

If you do any kind of math at all, this feat quickly eclipses just about every other Force showing in terms of power output.

Plus Malachor V has the Mass Shadow Generator adding a ton of gravity to the equation. Kreia describes the effect as:

"There is a world on the Outer Rim surrounded by mass shadows. Past the graveyard of Mandalorian warships, this planet suffers, crushed in gravity's fist. To walk on its surface is to feel it crushing every cell of your being. It is like being buried alive until it seems you will never breathe again."

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Good lord, the amount of terrible rationalizing is just....wow

Concession accepted. Or would you like to prove Meetra being the martial goddess of the Old Republic like you are inferring.

Originally posted by PlagueiSpoilers
As Malachor V was a world heavily steeped in the dark side of the Force, as Vjun or Korriban or Byss, I'm not certain that we can credit that particular feat to Nihilus alone, as he would have enormous reservoirs of power to draw from outside his own bodily energies.

Luckily, in regards to my defense of Traya's reputation through the substantiation of N.'s TK abilities, this is irrelevant. Both the Fleet feat and the insurrection against Traya occurred at a nexus. So Traya lost to a full powered N., which (as I said) is nothing to be ashamed of. This is all that I said.

There's no concession because your argument was defeated the minute you attempted idiotic rationalizations. Your cute strawman about how I claim Meetra is a martial goddess is more evidence of that.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
There's no concession because your argument was defeated the minute you attempted idiotic rationalizations. Your cute strawman about how I claim Meetra is a martial goddess is more evidence of that.
The only thing idiotic is your claim that Obi-Wan was average in the force when he was capable of matching TKs with ROTS Anakin.
What's more is that you go on to say that Meetra is in comparison strong in the force with Kenobi? This is simply unfounded and nowhere stated.

Mizukage, also:

iTF9xu50Hb0

Originally posted by Nephthys
She communicates with Atris telepathically. And Atris was also unable to see her or sense her presence when she was at the academy. Also she was able to read Attons mind despite him being trained to stop that kind of shit.

Atris was a librarian. I hardly consider either her or Jocasta Nu powerful Jedi. Wise? Yes, powerful, hardly.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Mizukage, also:

iTF9xu50Hb0
Deleted content is not canon, but that's a cool video.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The only thing idiotic is your claim that Obi-Wan was average in the force when he was capable of matching TKs with ROTS Anakin.
What's more is that you go on to say that Meetra is in comparison strong in the force with Kenobi? This is simply unfounded and nowhere stated.

Nothing indicates Kenobi was an above average force user. Also, nobody claimed some obscure piece of star wars literature states the exile>obi wan. Continue with your fishing expedition and humorous rationlizations instead of offering any kind of valid argument.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Atris was a librarian. I hardly consider either her or Jocasta Nu powerful Jedi. Wise? Yes, powerful, hardly.

She was on the Jedi Council, she had access to and studied an absurd amount of Sith Holocrons and she trained the Handmaidens in Echani combat. She was also able to rather easily defeat Brianna the Handmaiden despite the fact that Brianna had previously curbstomped all of her siblings at the same time.

Atris was hardly fodder.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Nothing indicates Kenobi was an above average force user.

Examining the question broadly, I agree completely that Kenobi's holistic displays of Force power aren't anything special, but he has his moments. If the hype regarding Skywalker is to be believed, Kenobi's ability to unleash comparable telekinetic energy with the Chosen One is impressive.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Nothing indicates Kenobi was an above average force user. Also, nobody claimed some obscure piece of star wars literature states the exile>obi wan. Continue with your fishing expedition and humorous rationlizations instead of offering any kind of valid argument.

His little TK exchange with Darth Vader at Mustafar proves otherwise. Do you really think that any Jedi in the history of the order could match TKs with ROTS Anakin immersed in the Dark Side?
You use the term "average" very loosely.
Prove that Meetra was in above Kenobi in the force or martially in general.
Originally posted by Nephthys
She was on the Jedi Council, she had access to and studied an absurd amount of Sith Holocrons and she trained the Handmaidens in Echani combat. She was also able to rather easily defeat Brianna the Handmaiden despite the fact that Brianna had previously curbstomped all of her siblings at the same time.

Atris was hardly fodder.

The handmaidens were forbidden to even touch upon the force. Brianna traveling with the exile and soloing the handmaidens is also shaky canon considering that event only happens if the Exile is chosen to be male in game. Even if we take that into account subduing a Padawan cho can defeat 5 non force-sensitives in combat is hardly impressive.
Jocasta Nu also sat on the Council and was the Librarian on Coruscant. That did not stop Darth Vader from casually lifting her with the Force and impaling her on his lightsaber.
In fact that didn't stop Cad Bane from knocking her unconscious in the Clone Wars

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Deleted content is not canon, but that's a cool video.


It isn't deleted content. That first bit happens in the original game, its just that she doesn't Force choke Sion.

For what it's worth, The Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide attributes to Traya "vast telekinetic powers."

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Prove that Meetra was in above Kenobi in the force or martially in general.

Why? He never said she was.

Yay!

Originally posted by Nephthys
It isn't deleted content. That first bit happens in the original game, its just that she doesn't Force choke Sion.
That was the feat? Or were you talking about fodderizing the Sith Assassins?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The handmaidens were forbidden to even touch upon the force. Brianna traveling with the exile and soloing the handmaidens is also shaky canon considering that event only happens if the Exile is chosen to be male in game. Even if we take that into account subduing a Padawan cho can defeat 5 non force-sensitives in combat is hardly impressive.
Jocasta Nu also sat on the Council and was the Librarian on Coruscant. That did not stop Darth Vader from casually lifting her with the Force and impaling her on his lightsaber.
In fact that didn't stop Cad Bane from knocking her unconscious in the Clone Wars


Brianna has been mentioned in a few sourcebooks I believe. And the claim could be made that its a gameplay mechanic that she only goes with a male Exile.

i see you don't mention the absurd amount of holocrons shes studied.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
That was the feat? Or were you talking about fodderizing the Sith Assassins?

Yes.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Brianna has been mentioned in a few sourcebooks I believe. And the claim could be made that its a gameplay mechanic that she only goes with a male Exile.
That's true.


She is a librarian, studying does not equal power. I am sure Jocasta Nu studied the holocrons of all the Jedi pass, but she does not have the power of a Satele Shan or Revan, even if she studied them.


We see these same Assassins not being able to defeat the Mandalorians. In fact they urge the exile and Mandalore to go on without them.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
studying does not equal power.

It depends on what she's studying. Sith philosophy? Then, no. But The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia makes it abundantly clear that the only way to master the Force is through dedicated study.

Atris: "All this collected knowledge, all these teachings of combat and the Force - they are mine to command."

Another epic fail for Yoda.

Well there you have it.

Though the fact that she not only lost to the Exile but was simply match for her in combat (KotOR campaign guide) is sobering. Either she exaggerated the extent of her mastery, the techniques in question were pedestrian, or all the above.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Atris: "All this collected knowledge, all these teachings of combat and the Force - they are mine to command."
And yet her arrogance was made all the more clear after Meetra slapped her around. What Sith knowledge made her so powerful?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Another epic fail for Yoda.
Cute.

Originally posted by PlagueiSpoilers
Well there you have it.

Though the fact that she not only lost to the Exile but was simply match for her in combat (KotOR campaign guide) is sobering. Either she exaggerated the extent of her mastery, the techniques in question were pedestrian, or all the above.

Or Meetra was simply better than her.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Or Meetra was simply better than her.

Meetra being better than an unknown is still an unknown though.

I think we've established that she isn't unknown. Theres at least 30 ****ing holocrons in that room when she makes that statement.

The Exile was inarguably superior to Atris, but that's just the conundrum: consider that the Exile, in turn, is woefully inadequate to take on Darth Nyriss. If Atris had mastered all those powers and techniques from those many Holocrons (which admittedly I'm assuming are great in number based on your estimations), you'd think she'd have been more formidable.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I think we've established that she isn't unknown. Theres at least 30 ****ing holocrons in that room when she makes that statement.

The only combatant she put down even with that knowledge was Brianna, a neophyte Padawan of the Exile.

Did she really master any of those holocrons?

http://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/Update%2049/img-10.JPG

Theres about 8-12 more off-camera. The line goes right up to the door.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Did she really master any of those holocrons?


Originally posted by Nephthys
Atris: "All this collected knowledge, all these teachings of combat and the Force - they are mine to command."

Originally posted by Nephthys


Holocrons are powerful, but we don't know which ones she had. For example, on Tython the JC class quest involves gathering holocrons.
3 of the first ones just held knowledge, teaching the wisdom. The third allowed even a being with no prior teachings to be able to bring down a cave with the force. We don't know what teachings Atris gained from those Holocrons so it's unquantifiable.

So a dark sider has never lied before?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Holocrons are powerful, but we don't know which ones she had. For example, on Tython the JC class quest involves gathering holocrons.
3 of the first ones just held knowledge, teaching the wisdom. The third allowed even a being with no prior teachings to be able to bring down a cave with the force. We don't know what teachings Atris gained from those Holocrons so it's unquantifiable.

She specifically mentions 'teachings of combat and the Force'.

Originally posted by Nephthys
She specifically mentions 'teachings of combat and the Force'.

Yes but a holocron teaching 'How to force choke' and how to generate lightning does not suddenly make her a force God.

I don't think I ever claimed it would. But we've seen lots of examples of what acquiring a holocron can do to a Force users growth. And she had a ****ton of holocrons.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't think I ever claimed it would. But we've seen lots of examples of what acquiring a holocron can do to a Force users growth. And she had a ****ton of holocrons.

That's true, Atris could have become as powerful as the likes of Tyranus with the holocrons but it is likely that she became marginally powerful.

Oh and I know this is deleted non-canon but.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VvS5MLnG0Y&feature=related
4:20
'I fear he may rival even the ancient Sith'
A hint to the Sith Emperor perhaps?

The fact that she thinks Nihilus merely 'rivals' the ancient Sith is rather disconcerting.




All the 's.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The fact that she thinks Nihilus merely 'rivals' the ancient Sith is rather disconcerting.




All the 's.
I wonder if Kreia knew of Vitiate? She did have the gift of foresight.

Oh shit, she just walked off a lightsaber to the stomach. Why didn't they keep that scene in, that was awesome!

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I wonder if Kreia knew of Vitiate? She did have the gift of foresight.

She could have. You never know with Kreia.

That doesn't necessarily mean she's learned or mastered anything, just that she knows what's in the holocrons.

Kreia still exists as the force ghost known as "The Entity". She's basically Darth Baras' ***** now.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
That doesn't necessarily mean she's learned or mastered anything, just that she knows what's in the holocrons.

Atris: "All this collected knowledge, all these teachings of combat and the Force - they are mine to command."

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Kreia still exists as the force ghost known as "The Entity". She's basically Darth Baras' ***** now.

Don't remind me.

wtfawe

Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh shit, she just walked off a lightsaber to the stomach. Why didn't they keep that scene in, that was awesome!



She could have. You never know with Kreia.
I know right. Everytime I look at KOTOR II cut content I shake my head at just how good that game could have been.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Kreia still exists as the force ghost known as "The Entity". She's basically Darth Baras' ***** now.
Is that confirmed? Wait is she the last entity you free before you go kill Baras?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Atris: "All this collected knowledge, all these teachings of combat and the Force - they are mine to command."


I hope you realize the stupidity of claiming that she's mastered the holocrons. Holocrons take years, if not decades to learn, much less master. She gathered a bunch of holocrons and mastered them within a 2-3 year period? lol

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I hope you realize the stupidity of claiming that she's mastered the holocrons. Holocrons take years, if not decades to learn, much less master. She gathered a bunch of holocrons and mastered them within a 2-3 year period? lol


Really? Because I clearly recall Bane learning everything in Revans Holocron inside of a few weeks. And then mastered Freedon Nadds inside of a few days. And then Belia Darzu's inside of, what, a day? Less?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Really? Because I clearly recall Bane learning everything in Revans Holocron inside of a few weeks. And then mastered Freedon Nadds inside of a few days. And then Belia Darzu's inside of, what, a day? Less?

Revan's holocron contained what, some ancient sith techniques and his personal sith philosophy? And Nadd's holocron took a decade to learn, if you remember the 2nd Bane book. He didn't master it either because he wasn't proficient with sith sorcery. I also don't recall him mastering Darzu's holocron as much as mastering a specific technique within the holocron.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Revan's holocron contained what, some ancient sith techniques and his personal sith philosophy? And Nadd's holocron took a decade to learn, if you remember the 2nd Bane book. He didn't master it either because he wasn't proficient with sith sorcery. I also don't recall him mastering Darzu's holocron as much as mastering a specific technique within the holocron.

Bane said that Revans holocron had more in it that the entirity of the academy on Korriban. I don't recall him taking that long with Nadds. You'll either need to provide quotes or link me to the russian site. I believe Bane did study Darzu's and saying that much of it was similar to what he already knew from Nadds and Revans.


Revan also only had a few years to learn from what he found on Malachor btw.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Bane said that Revans holocron had more in it that the entirity of the academy on Korriban. I don't recall him taking that long with Nadds. You'll either need to provide quotes or link me to the russian site. I believe Bane did study Darzu's and saying that much of it was similar to what he already knew from Nadds and Revans.

No, Bane said Revan's holocron had more value in it than the entirety of Korriban's academy.



Yea, but Revan's potential was easily greater than Atris'. I'm not suggesting he learned everything or even a fraction of what was on Malachor, but enough to be the most powerful force user of his era not named Vitiate.

Also, I'll need to find my copy of the book, I just remembered this thread:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-520305-darth-zannah-vs-darth-caedus.html

So far the only holocron which took a great deal of time to learn is apparantly Nadds and we have no confirmation of that. I fail to see how its stupid that she mastered the holocrons like she claimed. If they all had about the same amount as Revans its hardly implausable. She was a librarian and scholar remember.

If she DID master all those holocrons in such a short time span, it stands to reason that the knowledge in them wasn't exactly groundbreaking or impressive in the least.

No it doesn't.

Any information on the length of time it takes to master Holocrons? On the one hand you have the situation with Nadd that implies decades and then you have Bane's pursuit of knowledge that says he masters stuff like that in days.

But it took him 10 years for Nadd's holocron and he didn't master it. What takes him days is ripping the knowledge from the gatekeeper, like he did with Andeddu.

It only took him a few weeks to learn everything in Revans holocron and the stuff in there was enough to scare the piss out of him. No way can you dismiss 30 holocrons. It stands to reason that Atris was no weakling.

There was no specified quantity to Revan's knowledge inside the holocron. It could have been two things or twenty. I can dismiss 30 holocrons by way of sheer logic.

So basically:

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2010/1/19/129084463856778594.jpg

Lol, DS.

And Bane mentions multiple techniques and even uses a few. That he placed so much value on the contents speaks about the quality within.

You still did not explain the quantity which is the issue at hand.. Try again.

Originally posted by Eminence
lol

Are you the Count's resident champion?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
You still did not explain the quantity which is the issue at hand.. Try again.

Theres 30 holocrons. Thats more than enough. And her words indicate that theres a sizable collection of combat and Force teachings within. Odds are very much leaning towards the quantity be somewhere between 'lots' and 'a complete ****ton.'

She's not mastering 30 holocrons in a few years unless:

A. They're not terribly loaded with information

or

B. Atris' rate of knowledge absorption rivals Bane or Revan.

I have it on good authority that I am your mother's champion.

Originally posted by Eminence
I have it on good authority that I am your mother's champion.

I have it on good authority that my mother's champion has an unusually small penis for a human male.

His size notwithstanding, he's still plowing your mother.

Likely in an effort to touch the womb that bequeathed me unto the world. It must be magical for him to seek such intimacy with me through my mother.

I don't see why we should rule out B. Shes a librarian. Ingesting information is what she does for a living. Plus after falling to the darkside a la the holocrons her learning rate would have greatly improved. I just don't see how you can question quantity when she has over two dozen of the things. Most Sith only ever have a few.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't see why we should rule out B. Shes a librarian. Ingesting information is what she does for a living. Plus after falling to the darkside a la the holocrons her learning rate would have greatly improved. I just don't see how you can question quantity when she has over two dozen of the things. Most Sith only ever have a few.

Because we have established that in most cases, knowledge=power. If Atris did indeed master so many incredible techniques in such a short time period, it stands to reason that she could at least contend with either the Exile or Traya.

Your information is outdated: I took your father out of the picture years ago.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Because we have established that in most cases, knowledge=power. If Atris did indeed master so many incredible techniques in such a short time period, it stands to reason that she could at least contend with either the Exile or Traya.

I don't doubt that she could. Is there anything suggesting that Surik kicked her ass with one hand tied behind her back? To quote Karyshan, while you may have beat her like a Texan wife in the game, in reality it was probably a long, desperate battle.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't doubt that she could. Is there anything suggesting that Surik kicked her !@#$%^&* with one hand tied behind her back? To quote Karyshan, while you may have beat her like a Texan wife in the game, in reality it was probably a long, desperate battle.

If she had the ability to absorb knowledge like Revan or Bane, or if the techniques in the holocrons were useful to some extent, she wouldn't have been defeated by the Exile. Period.

Nah. Kreia probably knew more than her on Sith techniques but the Exile still defeated her. Meetra was simply a better fighter than Atris.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nah. Kreia probably knew more than her on Sith techniques but the Exile still defeated her.

1. It appeared as though Kreia allowed her to win.

2. We've seen Kreia's abilities, we have seen nothing from Atris.

Meetra was simply a better fighter than Artis. While Atris was studying holocrons, she was fighting entire armies. Just because Atris likely had greater Force mastery than her doesn't mean she'd automatically win.

Plus the Exiles learning rate is the most absurdly fast in the mythos remember.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Meetra was simply a better fighter than Artis. While Atris was studying holocrons, she was fighting entire armies. Just because Atris likely had greater Force mastery than her doesn't mean she'd automatically win.
Vitiate spend a century studying the dark side and without any notable combat experience, subdued 100 sith lords. A thousand years later, he did the same to Revan. Don't think you need combat experience if you have force mastery.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Don't think you need combat experience if you have force mastery.

Sidious probably felt this way too, up until he kissed Mace's boot.

Again, its not like the Exile is a 4 thumbed cripple. Her own learning rate is astronomical and she has a lot experience fighting. This is the same woman who tore through an entire Sith academy a short while later. Atris has never been in a actual fight as far as we know. Plus she was pretty damn insane at the time.

The fact is, while Atris was undoubtably impressive and a highly skilled Jedi Master/Sith Lord, the Exile was just better.

Relative to the respective disparities in scholarship, fighting skill, and raw talent.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Again, its not like the Exile is a 4 thumbed cripple. Her own learning rate is astronomical and she has a lot experience fighting. This is the same woman who tore through an entire Sith academy a short while later. Atris has never been in a actual fight as far as we know. Plus she was pretty damn insane at the time.

The fact is, while Atris was undoubtably impressive and a highly skilled Jedi Master/Sith Lord, the Exile was just better.

The Exile very likely is better at this point because zhe's absorbing power from all her fallen foes, and there's the simple fact that Meetra learns everything at an uber rate including high level saber forms, telepathy, and exotic uses of the Force.

Her victory elevates Meetra instead of simply making Atris a pushover.