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But really, they are just the old set of lies in new clothing. I suppose everyone knew this was coming, but, it just is so much worse when you actually see how talking points are created.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/republicans-being-taught-talk-occupy-wall-street-133707949.html

maybe I'm just a bit cynical on the whole thing, but I tend to see this as a necessary consequence of partisan politics.

For a political party to mean anything, they have to have a cohesive message, and individuals can't challenge one another within the party if they want to be competitive in the game that is electoral politics.

Interesting stuff none the less, but I would almost assume the Democrats have similar "keep-on-point" style meetings, and certainly Democrats aren't above lying. Very interesting though

Originally posted by inimalist
maybe I'm just a bit cynical on the whole thing, but I tend to see this as a necessary consequence of partisan politics.

For a political party to mean anything, they have to have a cohesive message, and individuals can't challenge one another within the party if they want to be competitive in the game that is electoral politics.

Interesting stuff none the less, but I would almost assume the Democrats have similar "keep-on-point" style meetings, and certainly Democrats aren't above lying. Very interesting though
Democrats already have made the shift to pretending to sympathize with the occupiers. So I am guessing they had a similar meeting earlier in the year. It is interesting, I bet you will see much less mockery of the occupiers on Fox within a very short time from now. This is great, its like a rosetta stone. They have already changed around some of their buzzwords in response to this, we are going to see some rapid transition.

The real interesting line is the first one; he says he is terrified of the Occupy movement! "Frightened to death"! So much for the notion that no one was taking them seriously. Here we see the Republicans in a scramble to try and adjust their message to run from them.

The headline of Republican lies is a bit outlandish, as both sides aren't going to articulate their "real" goals and I don't think it's lizards.

Either way words win the masses and they (the masses) have about a 2 week memory for media buzz.

What's Occupy Wall Street?

I agree with 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, and 10. I see nothing wrong with those and I agree with the concepts.

2. Since I think we should do away with all income taxes, I will obviously consider "taxes are bad, mkay?"

4. Who doesn't want a career or long-lasting job? That's just common-sense.

5. I think the government wastes tons of money in their spending. I really like the direction of calling it waste. Since I am closer to "classical republican" in my political ideals, I would obviously agree with calling most government spending waste. It needs to be cleaned up and the majority of it ceased.

7. Telling politicians how to speak to protesters is not lying. IMO, if you don't already know how to engage in dialogue with the protesters, you're an idiot. If you have to be told to say "I get it", then you're an idiot. This talking point is rather stupid and it shows how stupid some republicans are if you have to tell them to say it.

9. Sound advice. Most tax payers have sacrificed enough, already. No more sacrificing: adjust the tax system and government spending.

10. This one is a "duh". Yes, much of our problems can be directly or indirectly blamed on Capital Hill and the White House. That much should be obvious. However, voters are fairly tired of the blame game. I am not sure if this is the best of advice, but I do agree with it on principle.


The others are just dishonest or stupid.

Originally posted by lord krondor
What's Occupy Wall Street?

Didn't you get the memo?

Aerosmith is up next followed by Metallica

The thing is that he's not saying "change your policies to reflect these wishes of the people", he's saying "the people have these wishes, so change your language to reflect it and dupe people into believing you stand for something or make it seem like the issue is something else, but continue in the same way you have before policy-wise".

Ah, good ol' Frank Luntz. Making Social Darwinism and Feudalism palatable for America.

I'm not sure how using language to persuade your audience is a lie. Also, I'm pretty sure Luntz is a Jew.

manipulation OF language...it's just more bullshit

Originally posted by dadudemon
I agree with 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, and 10. I see nothing wrong with those and I agree with the concepts.

2. Since I think we should do away with all income taxes, I will obviously consider "taxes are bad, mkay?"

4. Who doesn't want a career or long-lasting job? That's just common-sense.

5. I think the government wastes tons of money in their spending. I really like the direction of calling it waste. Since I am closer to "classical republican" in my political ideals, I would obviously agree with calling most government spending waste. It needs to be cleaned up and the majority of it ceased.

7. Telling politicians how to speak to protesters is not lying. IMO, if you don't already know how to engage in dialogue with the protesters, you're an idiot. If you have to be told to say "I get it", then you're an idiot. This talking point is rather stupid and it shows how stupid some republicans are if you have to tell them to say it.

9. Sound advice. Most tax payers have sacrificed enough, already. No more sacrificing: adjust the tax system and government spending.

10. This one is a "duh". Yes, much of our problems can be directly or indirectly blamed on Capital Hill and the White House. That much should be obvious. However, voters are fairly tired of the blame game. I am not sure if this is the best of advice, but I do agree with it on principle.


The others are just dishonest or stupid.
But you understand these are not actually policy changes. They are discussing how they will make themselves sound like they're changing direction, without actually changing at all.

Originally posted by King Kandy
But you understand these are not actually policy changes. They are discussing how they will make themselves sound like they're changing direction, without actually changing at all.

I don't agree. They are changing their words to sound better while still maintaining positions that mean the same thing. Meaning, they are not trying to sound like they are changing direction, at all: they are just delivering most of their talking points more intelligently.

Obviously, both the dems and the GOP want to create jobs. But creating jobs is not enough. We need to create careers. Implementing smart regulations (not just a bunch of them), lower taxes, cutting government spending, creating policies that make it easier for American companies to compete, improving healthcare, and improving foreign relations are all ways to create careers instead of temporary jobs. It just so happens that I covered most of the other talking points.



Sometimes, it is not what you say, but how you say it. Many of the GOP positions are great or awesome. It's just that they never adhere to them. Same with the dems.


Who DOESN'T want a streamlined and efficient government? Who doesn't want smart laws and regulations? Who doesn't want less government spending and better use of taxes?


Any person who does not want those things is either out of touch, an idiot, or both. It just so happens that the GOP and Dems say they want those things but never deliver.

None of these are remotely new and none are strictly lies. About what you'd expect from a political advisor.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Who DOESN'T want a streamlined and efficient government? Who doesn't want smart laws and regulations? Who doesn't want less government spending and better use of taxes?


Any person who does not want those things is either out of touch, an idiot, or both.

Lots of people want vague generalities. That's why they're so meaningless. It's nearly as insipid as the"Harm Principle".

I'm going to have to agree with King Kandy: this is just another set of Republican lies. After all, we know that this tactic is never used outside of conservative political circles. Liberals--sorry, progressives--would never resort to such chicanery to accomplish their goals. You don't hear progressives rebranding global warming--errr, climate change--or same-sex marriage--I mean marriage equality--or abortion--sorry, reproductive rights--into new terms and phrases to advance their legislative agenda. Typical Republican behavior, really.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Lots of people want vague generalities. That's why they're so meaningless. It's nearly as insipid as the"Harm Principle".

You're confusing summarizing with generalizing.


I actually typed out a post that lists some specifics that most people are aware of when they hear/read the section you quoted of my post. I am quite sure you are aware of those items, as well. If you would like me to give you what I typed out, I will: just PM me.

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
I'm going to have to agree with King Kandy: this is just another set of Republican lies. After all, we know that this tactic is never used outside of conservative political circles. Liberals--sorry, progressives--would never resort to such chicanery to accomplish their goals. You don't hear progressives rebranding global warming--errr, climate change--or same-sex marriage--I mean marriage equality--or abortion--sorry, reproductive rights--into new terms and phrases to advance their legislative agenda. Typical Republican behavior, really.

You do have a point.

It is both parties who lie not just one party.

Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
It is both parties who lie not just one party.

Yeah, but Republicans try to screw the middle class and the poor more though.

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
I'm going to have to agree with King Kandy: this is just another set of Republican lies. After all, we know that this tactic is never used outside of conservative political circles. Liberals--sorry, progressives--would never resort to such chicanery to accomplish their goals. You don't hear progressives rebranding global warming--errr, climate change--or same-sex marriage--I mean marriage equality--or abortion--sorry, reproductive rights--into new terms and phrases to advance their legislative agenda. Typical Republican behavior, really.


Originally posted by King Kandy
Democrats already have made the shift to pretending to sympathize with the occupiers. So I am guessing they had a similar meeting earlier in the year..

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
I'm not sure how using language to persuade your audience is a lie. Also, I'm pretty sure Luntz is a Jew.
lol...

Originally posted by Bardock42
Yeah, but Republicans try to screw the middle class and the poor more though.
No, not really. Ostensibly, cutting welfare hurts the poor, but I would argue that making them dependent on the government hurts them just as much, paving the way for a society ruled by the government. "Do as we say, or the money stops flowing." Ultimately, the parties are aligned in screwing the poor and middle class on two key issues: immigration and outsourcing. The Republicans want to let illegals in for cheap labor, and they pretend that outsourcing exists because taxes are too high. The Democrats want to let illegals in for cheap votes, and they pretend that outsourcing exists because taxes aren't high enough.

**** 'em both.

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
The Democrats want to let illegals in for cheap votes

Yep those people who can't vote are really swinging the elections outside of infantile right-wing fantasies.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Yep those people who can't vote are really swinging the elections outside of infantile right-wing fantasies.

That's not what he was saying, obviously.


If the dems let them in, the immediate outcome is votes from people who sympathize with that position (new citizens who also immigrated..(first or second generation, typically)) in addition to all the other voters that agree with that position who are not recent immigrants.

This is on top of gaining future votes from such people. Bring them in, make them citizens, and you create loyalty for generations...blind loyalty, even.


So it is a war to see who can win the most votes from new and future immigrants.

I would say that it is the Dems that does that. Liberals always like to blame others and not them selves.

Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
I would say that it is the Dems that does that. Liberals always like to blame others and not them selves.

heh, "democrats" and "liberals" in the same idea

http://i.qkme.me/1ql7.jpg

And all the same.lol

Originally posted by dadudemon
That's not what he was saying, obviously.

Now that you've given him an excuse we'll never know. I find it much more obvious that he would believe that given his track record and intelligence.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Now that you've given him an excuse we'll never know. I find it much more obvious that he would believe that given his track record and intelligence.

I disagree: I found his point to be rather obvious. Who doesn't know about the battle for immigrant votes between Dems and the GOP? You probably could not find a single person in this thread that did not know about it.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Yeah, but Republicans try to screw the middle class and the poor more though.

Gonna disagree on the poor thing. The democratic part has mastered screwing the poor and yet retaining their votes. The republicans cannot hope to match such a strategy.

More lies? Of course no one is surprised at all. In 3 more years I'm going to be running for office somewhere, if others won't do the right thing then I'll have to do it myself.

Always blame the Republicans and Conservatives. Damn those people! When was the last time during a Tea Party protest when a woman was raped? Quit demonizing the GOP when Democrats and Liberals are just as guilty of making mistakes. Bush made mistakes and I didn't agree with some of his policies. Obama however took the country in the wrong direction. Class warfare, embracing the Occupy Wall Street, tax the 1% is sheer stupidity (it won't create jobs), Obamacare is a waste of money. The spending . . . I mean stimulus package did jack shit.

What's worse is his apology tour and ending the war in Afghanistan. Simply giving the country back to enemy is cowardice. Stop blaming Republicans - both parties are guilty.

Taxing the top 1% may not create jobs (though it probably would), but it will definitely help balance the budget and it will not cost jobs.

Obama isn't even doing that though I'm not sure what you are on about.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Always blame the ... Conservatives.

yes, both of your parties

Originally posted by inimalist
yes, both of your parties

I see what you did there. 313

oh man, its one of those things that I can't help but get annoyed about, people complaining about how liberal Obama is when he is massively to the right of almost all conservative parties in the western world.

I know I shouldn't let it get to me... but...

/ragequit

EDIT: btw, I'm not ignoring your point in that other thread, its just a more complicated answer than any of this stuff and I'm in the middle of finishing what might be some of my last assignments for school ever.....

Originally posted by inimalist
oh man, its one of those things that I can't help but get annoyed about, people complaining about how liberal Obama is when he is massively to the right of almost all conservative parties in the western world.

I know I shouldn't let it get to me... but...

/ragequit

EDIT: btw, I'm not ignoring your point in that other thread, its just a more complicated answer than any of this stuff and I'm in the middle of finishing what might be some of my last assignments for school ever.....

Most Americans don't realize that. When they watch their world news, when "conservative party" is stated, they have no idea that it does not mean the same thing outside the US. That's more a product of 50 years of world dominance, though...rather than willful ignorance. Americans have gotten to be very "Amero-Centric" when it comes to politics because of the lack of a need to worry about other nations. You can pick this up quite well in coffee and donut shops: the old folks talk about American AND world politics and middle aged or younger talk mostly about American Politics (at least under my observations).


You can ignore me all you want: you are never obligated to respond and/or pwn me. It just boils to me being a douche about "impartial" and I know I'm being douchy...but I'm not trying to be irritating. (Or are you not talking about the God thread...but the other one?)

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Always blame the Republicans and Conservatives. Damn those people! When was the last time during a Tea Party protest when a woman was raped? Quit demonizing the GOP when Democrats and Liberals are just as guilty of making mistakes. Bush made mistakes and I didn't agree with some of his policies. Obama however took the country in the wrong direction. Class warfare, embracing the Occupy Wall Street, tax the 1% is sheer stupidity (it won't create jobs), Obamacare is a waste of money. The spending . . . I mean stimulus package did jack shit.

What's worse is his apology tour and ending the war in Afghanistan. Simply giving the country back to enemy is cowardice. Stop blaming Republicans - both parties are guilty.
Haha. I have lots of things I hate about Obama, but none of the things you mentioned are among them...

Republicans...conservative. Loooooooooool.

Calling Americans "lazy" alienates many people and the economy not turning around is a fatal mistake (in my opinion) is a good way to get yourself fired from your job (president). One of our Stealth drones in Iranian hands and then asking for it back? What kind of dumbass does that? Destroy it with an air strike or special forces raid. Don't leave that technology in enemy hands. Iranians attempting an assassination on American soil and let's just sanction them. Pisses me off that he did nothing. Throwing Israel (a key American ally) under the bus, getting us involved in Libya - epic fail.

Yeah totally, let's go to war with Iran by calling down an airstrike on them, in order to destroy a piece of equipment that we had no right to have flying in their air space in the first place.

C'mon, son.

You're just not thinking MILITARILY enough, Blax. Anything can be solved with PRECISION AIRSTRIKES. That includes world peace. We need to LIBERATE that unmanned drone as soon as possible, in order to send a message to the world that AMERICA is trigger happy and retarded. USA! USA!

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Yeah totally, let's go to war with Iran by calling down an airstrike on them, in order to destroy a piece of equipment that we had no right to have flying in their air space in the first place.

C'mon, son.

pfft, airstrikes in Iran would be easy

the boys would be home by Christmas

They're going to hang up the washing on the Sa'dabad Palace.

America needs another land war in Asia, imho




































































































as long as NATO stays out of it again

I am amazed that we have military GPS technology, which allows precision of in the civilian sector of about 5 meters, and yet we are still off on our GPS strikes by up to 15 meters at times. Science can't explain THAT!

We have ballistics that can literally strike within a meter diameter (pun?) but yet we miss by 15 times that amount at times? The saving of a single innocent life is worth the extra $40,000 per missile, IMO (and it shouldn't be that much, anyway, which is another complaing I have).

If we firebombed the Middle East, the world would rapidly become a better place.