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Spidey without spider sense, and no webbing or shield.

Who wins?

Spider-Man of course. The current one knows Kung Fu, so maybe it will help him out. But even without the spider sense only a huge amount of PIS is going to save Captain America, since Spider-Man should be able to speedblitz the crap out of Captain America and each single punch would be devastating, if Spider-Man wants to end the fight quickly.

Captain America is just an enhanced human, who is at his peak. He is basically Batman in terms of strenght and that's actually not enough to harm Spider-Man in the long run. Being superior in martial arts does not give you the ability to keep up with Spider-Mans strenght, speed and most importantly: reflexes... That guy is dodging bullets for breakfast, so dodging Captain America shouldn't be an issue.

And their fight during the Civil War was one of these PIS instances, to hype up Captain America even more. Spider-Man would do to Captain America what he did to Kingpin in the prison.

I'm impressed with Spidey's kung fu. A budding student of Shang Chi isn't impressive on it's own -- especially not to Cap -- but a budding student of Shang Chi with Spidey's abilities is dangerous. If he fully utilizes it and dampens his reflexive improvisational style (the one that Cap knows so well), I can see Spidey winning.

But until then, Cap would win. Again.

Pete, with or without Kung Fu, provided his CIS isn't raging hard. Just too big a physical disparity. Harder fight without Kung Fu, obviously, but same outcome.

Originally posted by Enzeru
And their fight during the Civil War was one of these PIS instances, to hype up Captain America even more. Spider-Man would do to Captain America what he did to Kingpin in the prison.

This. Cap supporters basically have that one fight. Spidey backers in this thread have pretty much everything else from his feat repertoire.

^ Cap supporters have Cap's entire career and his entire feat repertoire also. If you were surprised that Cap made look Spidey look like a noob in Civil War, then you've surprised me as well. Not in the good way.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Cap supporters have Cap's entire career and his entire feat repertoire also. If you were surprised that Cap made look Spidey look like a noob in Civil War, then you've surprised me as well. Not in the good way.

1. Spider-Man was holding back, just like always when he fights people who are beneath his physical stats.

2. Spider-Man was holding even more on Captain America, because he respects him. Cap is probably his childhood hero.

3. Spider-Man was holding even more, since he was trying to convince Captain America that Tony is doing the right thing with the registration act.

4. Spider-Man dodged nearly all of Captain America's shield throws.

5. He webbed up Cap's shield to a wall and Cap had to return few hours later, to take his shield again, since he would not be able to break through the webbing.

6. That was not their "only" fight during Civil War.

Take a close look at the last panel of the very first scan. Do you see how Captain America is trying to ambush Spider-Man from behind and how near he is? Didn't do jack to Spider-Man:

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/4793/cw0317.th.jpg

http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/324/cw0318.th.jpg

http://img803.imageshack.us/img803/3958/cw0319.th.jpg

iirc in the next scan Cap lands a nice uppercut on Pete

I think Cap can put up a good fight against Pete with or without the spider sense and Shang Chi training. I think it is very disingenuous to compare Cap stats and speed to someone like Bats or Kingpin.

Cap is an enhanced human but he is far from just peak.

His Reaction and history shows him with his own impressive speed feats to match any that the spider might have..

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Cap supporters have Cap's entire career and his entire feat repertoire also. If you were surprised that Cap made look Spidey look like a noob in Civil War, then you've surprised me as well. Not in the good way.

Cap has good feats. But how are you accounting for the large degree of difference in speed, strength, and durability? We're talking like 15x in each category, and that's being generous to Cap, saying he's at 1-ton instead of peak human.

Cap had a good showing against Pete, they were portrayed a lot closer to equals than they should be imo. But I also think, even if we allow that feat, that everything else favors SM by a heavy margin. Even Pete's mid-range feats trump Caps best in all of the categories mentioned.

If you want, I'll give you 1-2/10. Cap's a great tactician. But that's generous as hell, imo.

Also, Kung Fu makes it unfair. He's still not going to be cap's MA equal of course, but it basically erases the only real trump card Cap has to play in this fight.

The simple reality is that any discrepancy in speed between Captain America and Spider-man is minute to non existent. If you honestly believe there is a 15 x speed disparity between Spider-man and Cap (or any top tier street) then you are simply lying to yourself or lack adequate knowledge of these characters to know any better. Even allowing for the notion that Spider-man is twice as fast as Captain America is a huge stretch, and only something someone who isn't familiar with the character of Steve Rogers would be able swallow.

Spider-sense or webbing on and I would give Spidy a pretty overwhelming majority, but in these scenario Pete lacks the aptitude to engage Cap in melee and come out on top. Now if the point comes where his martial skills ever became fully developed that could change, but now that he has his Spider-sense back I doubt said skills will ever be referenced again. Sans Spider-sense Cap lights up Peter with pressure points and takes home the belt.

Also Cap is class 2... conservatively.

http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lvxbglpvLc1r4ggaho1_500.gif

Ok, sure, class 2. Still giving Pete around 7x strength, comparable durability, and while we can't quantify speed the same way we can strength, we know for a fact Pete's faster. Scale it down to a more "human" level and it's easier to see the disparity. Someone who can move maybe 1.5x faster than an in-shape human, at 5x strength, and take 2x the punishment. Those are, even by your logic, conservative advantage estimates (I think each would be more for SM). And this person has basic physical prowess but little training. Now put that person against a trained martial artist (base human)...they'd be overwhelmed eventually. That kind of discrepancy isn't something they'd be able to account for in all but the most perfect and/or forgiving fight scenarios.

Also, you're painting away the MA skill in a hypothetical for your own purposes. Do we discount every power of Thor's that goes ignored by 90% of his writers? Until there's an actual retcon, you're just making things up.

Besides, Cap trained Pete briefly as well and he's been at this for years. He is a trained martial artist now, but even before that he wasn't a toddler.

No need for the gifs. I don't mind them, but in context they can be seen as condescending. Let your arguments stand on their own.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Now if the point comes where his martial skills ever became fully developed that could change, but now that he has his Spider-sense back I doubt said skills will ever be referenced again. Sans Spider-sense Cap lights up Peter with pressure points and takes home the belt.
It has just been referenced in the last issue. Spider-man wont stop bragging about it lol

The speed difference while clearly is not x15 is still there and is significant. The strength even more so. kung fu/no kung fu doesnt change much. Without PIS and CIS Cap is not taking 1/10 vs the "back in black" Spider.

Spiderman wins, anyone who disagrees is a buffoon.

Spidey trounces cap, sorry steve.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The simple reality is that any discrepancy in speed between Captain America and Spider-man is minute to non existent. If you honestly believe there is a 15 x speed disparity between Spider-man and Cap (or any top tier street) then you are simply lying to yourself or lack adequate knowledge of these characters to know any better.

You don't have a clue how fast Spider-Man actually is, right? :-7 To compare him with Captain America, that's just ... meh.

IIRC, didn't Spider-Man and Captain America fight 4x over the years, and each time Cap won? Not that I think he should've; dealing with those CA>SM victories has been the biggest shocker to me since I joined KMC.

Personally, I think SM should win, stips or not, especially if he now knows kung-fu ('bout friggin' time he learned some MA). Cap most certainly could win, but I think the odds are not in his favor.

IMO, it's long since time for the Spiderjobbing to stop.

Originally posted by Mindship
IIRC, didn't Spider-Man and Captain America fight 4x over the years, and each time Cap won? Not that I think he should've; dealing with those CA>SM victories has been the biggest shocker to me since I joined KMC.

Personally, I think SM should win, stips or not, especially if he now knows kung-fu ('bout friggin' time he learned some MA). Cap most certainly could win, but I think the odds are not in his favor.

IMO, it's long since time for the Spiderjobbing to stop. There were some brief tussles between them but they only really fought once. And his CIS was always in play. He pulls punches when fights thugs and super villains. Steve is his hero, he holds back big time. Superior fighting skills is great, but even Scorpion was too much for Cap because of his superhuman stats. And Scorpion is no Spider-man.

yeah, spidey for a solid 7-8/10 imo. a true superspeed punching flurry like he's pulled off against the hulk or masterson thor would be too much. even if cap can interfere with it spidey can keep coming back with it. too much strength advantage and enough of a durability and speed advantage make this fight spidey's methinks.

Venom recently knocked out Captain America with one single punch and had to save him afterwards from death. He also said that Captain America should be able to survive a 20 foot fall, because of the Super Soldier Serum.

That places Captain America on the place he is supposed to be when it comes to the level of the people.
While you can consider Captain America a very high street level, because of his feats, guys like Spider-Man are much above street level, yet many people fail to realize that, because the writers like to downgrade Spider-Man, to make him more believable, even though Spider-Man pulled off some crazy stunts in the past, including speedblitzing multiple meta humans ... hi @ Civil War, where Mr. Fantastic was amazed by Spider-Man's speed and skill and then got spectacular-suckerpunched by Spidey.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Now if the point comes where his martial skills ever became fully developed that could change, but now that he has his Spider-sense back I doubt said skills will ever be referenced again. I'll remember you of this way of thinking next time someone makes a Sabretooth thread.

Originally posted by Enzeru
He also said that Captain America should be able to survive a 20 foot fall, because of the Super Soldier Serum.




Lol this made me laugh so hard seriously you made my day

20 foot is like a third floor almost any healthy human can survive a fall from the third store, as a matter of fact there were cases when thieves jumped from fifth store which is somewhere about 32 foot hight and all they got was a broken leg so 20 foot fall is not something impresive even in the real world

There was a case when a drunk guy accidently walked out of a window instead of door. It was 9th floor. The guy just got up like nothing happened and went to get another bottle.

Originally posted by SamZED
There was a case when a drunk guy accidently walked out of a window instead of door. It was 9th floor. The guy just got up like nothing happened and went to get another bottle.


hhhhh gde eta bila v russiye? da unas tut seryoznie parni

Originally posted by jhonyBoy
hhhhh gde eta bila v russiye? da unas tut seryoznie parni nihera sebe!!! Otkuda znaesh yazik????????

Originally posted by SamZED
nihera sebe!!! Otkuda znaesh yazik????????

sam ruskiy

Originally posted by Mindset
Spiderman wins, anyone who disagrees is a buffoon.

Originally posted by jhonyBoy
sam ruskiy Blin registrirysia ponormalnomu, vmeste veselee! A to tut iz Rossii nikogo.

Originally posted by SamZED
Blin registrirysia ponormalnomu, vmeste veselee! A to tut iz Rossii nikogo.

ya vidil isho colossus big c ruskiy i devchonka sharlot... i isho ya

Originally posted by jhonyBoy
ya vidil isho colossus big c ruskiy i devchonka sharlot... i isho ya Heh Big c ne russkiy, prosto on fanat Colossa poetomu tak napisal, ya sprashival a sharlot is Belorussii.

Originally posted by SamZED
Heh Big c ne russkiy, prosto on fanat Colossa poetomu tak napisal, ya sprashival a sharlot is Belorussian.

HAHAHAHAHAH a ya vsegda dumal kak tak ruskiy a takoi dalbayob nada je vso yasna snim

RUHE HIER!!!

Originally posted by Parmaniac
RUHE HIER!!!

what language is this?

Originally posted by jhonyBoy
Lol this made me laugh so hard seriously you made my day

Bla bla bla, Captain America was unconcious, so there is a difference, if he falls with his weight onto the shoulder, head, something else.

However, the main point was that Venom hit him harder then he planned to and it was more then enough to take Captain America out. The same would apply for Spider-Man.

Originally posted by jhonyBoy
what language is this?

Deutsch.
German.

spidey wins, dont be fools

No shield. No webbing. No problem. A serious Spidey will work Steve over.

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/Badabing_2006/Marvel/th_AmazingSpider-Man542-003.jpg
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/Badabing_2006/Marvel/th_AmazingSpider-Man542-004.jpg
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/Badabing_2006/Marvel/th_AmazingSpider-Man542-005.jpg
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/Badabing_2006/Marvel/th_AmazingSpider-Man542-006.jpg
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/Badabing_2006/Marvel/th_AmazingSpider-Man542-007.jpg
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/Badabing_2006/Marvel/th_AmazingSpider-Man542-008.jpg
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/Badabing_2006/Marvel/th_AmazingSpider-Man542-009.jpg
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/Badabing_2006/Marvel/th_AmazingSpider-Man542-010.jpg
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/Badabing_2006/Marvel/th_AmazingSpider-Man542-011-012.jpg
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/Badabing_2006/Marvel/th_AmazingSpider-Man542-013.jpg

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/Badabing_2006/Marvel/th_AmazingSpider-Man542-015.jpg
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/Badabing_2006/Marvel/th_AmazingSpider-Man542-016.jpg
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/Badabing_2006/Marvel/th_AmazingSpider-Man542-017.jpg
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/Badabing_2006/Marvel/th_AmazingSpider-Man542-018.jpg
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/Badabing_2006/Marvel/th_AmazingSpider-Man542-019.jpg
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/Badabing_2006/Marvel/th_AmazingSpider-Man542-020.jpg
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/Badabing_2006/Marvel/th_AmazingSpider-Man542-021.jpg

^ Cap would never, in his wildest dreams, own the kingpin that hard.

Originally posted by Digi
Ok, sure, class 2. Still giving Pete around 7x strength, comparable durability, and while we can't quantify speed the same way we can strength, we know for a fact Pete's faster. Scale it down to a more "human" level and it's easier to see the disparity. Someone who can move maybe 1.5x faster than an in-shape human, at 5x strength, and take 2x the punishment. Those are, even by your logic, conservative advantage estimates (I think each would be more for SM). And this person has basic physical prowess but little training. Now put that person against a trained martial artist (base human)...they'd be overwhelmed eventually. That kind of discrepancy isn't something they'd be able to account for in all but the most perfect and/or forgiving fight scenarios.

Also, you're painting away the MA skill in a hypothetical for your own purposes. Do we discount every power of Thor's that goes ignored by 90% of his writers? Until there's an actual retcon, you're just making things up.

Besides, Cap trained Pete briefly as well and he's been at this for years. He is a trained martial artist now, but even before that he wasn't a toddler.

No need for the gifs. I don't mind them, but in context they can be seen as condescending. Let your arguments stand on their own.

Depending on the whims of the writer Spider-man can be anywhere between class 10 - 20. Like you pointed, this allows for the possibility of as low 5x strength disparity between the two characters. Now don't get me wrong, that is a substantial gape but it is not completely insurmountable for a skilled fighter even in the real world, never mind someone of Cap's caliber. Ditto for durability. Just look what powerless 80lbs beanpole Rogers did to those Super Soldiers in h2h.

Spider-man is stronger and more durable than Cap, but IMO any speed difference between the two is slight and that can be chalked up to precog afforded to him by his Spider-Sense (which is not active in this thread). For the sake of debate lets say you are right and Spider-man is 1.5 times or even twice as fast as Captain America, while what Cap has to counter that is undeniably better timing, which is what he used to beat on Spider-man in that Civil War fight. He read Spider-man like a book, picked up on his tells, got the timing down, and rolled over him. That's what he'll do here. In pure h2h Steve picks Spider-man apart with perfectly timed shots to nerve clusters and pressure points. Cap is just too skilled.

I'm not painting away Spider-man's skill. I said it isn't currently much of a factor at it's current level and I can't see it being further developed now that he has his Spider-Sense back. He isn't Anderson Silva, he had a few weeks of kung-fu training. Hell... the first thing that happened when he showed up in Spider-Island was Ms Marvel, Thing and Iron Fist rag dolling him because they assumed he was a random infecty.

George can't be condescending, he is a loser, I just thought it added some levity to the post. Although I do love the irony of the dur smilie master levying charges of condensation.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Although I do love the irony of the dur smilie master levying charges of condensation. Get your facts straight, sport. I am the dur master. Forget that FACT again at your own peril. sneer

Spidey.

Originally posted by Badabing
Get your facts straight, sport. I am the dur master. Forget that FACT again at your own peril. sneer

http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lvyt5lj0xG1r3jyz9o1_500.gif

Isn't that what I said?

Originally posted by Digi
Ok, sure, class 2. Still giving Pete around 7x strength, comparable durability, and while we can't quantify speed the same way we can strength, we know for a fact Pete's faster. Scale it down to a more "human" level and it's easier to see the disparity. Someone who can move maybe 1.5x faster than an in-shape human, at 5x strength, and take 2x the punishment. Those are, even by your logic, conservative advantage estimates (I think each would be more for SM). And this person has basic physical prowess but little training. Now put that person against a trained martial artist (base human)...they'd be overwhelmed eventually. That kind of discrepancy isn't something they'd be able to account for in all but the most perfect and/or forgiving fight scenarios.

Also, you're painting away the MA skill in a hypothetical for your own purposes. Do we discount every power of Thor's that goes ignored by 90% of his writers? Until there's an actual retcon, you're just making things up.

Besides, Cap trained Pete briefly as well and he's been at this for years. He is a trained martial artist now, but even before that he wasn't a toddler.

No need for the gifs. I don't mind them, but in context they can be seen as condescending. Let your arguments stand on their own. Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Depending on the whims of the writer Spider-man can be anywhere between class 10 - 20. Like you pointed, this allows for the possibility of as low 5x strength disparity between the two characters. Now don't get me wrong, that is a substantial gape but it is not completely insurmountable for a skilled fighter even in the real world, never mind someone of Cap's caliber. Ditto for durability. Just look what powerless 80lbs beanpole Rogers did to those Super Soldiers in h2h.

Spider-man is stronger and more durable than Cap, but IMO any speed difference between the two is slight and that can be chalked up to precog afforded to him by his Spider-Sense (which is not active in this thread). For the sake of debate lets say you are right and Spider-man is 1.5 times or even twice as fast as Captain America, while what Cap has to counter that is undeniably better timing, which is what he used to beat on Spider-man in that Civil War fight. He read Spider-man like a book, picked up on his tells, got the timing down, and rolled over him. That's what he'll do here. In pure h2h Steve picks Spider-man apart with perfectly timed shots to nerve clusters and pressure points. Cap is just too skilled.

I'm not painting away Spider-man's skill. I said it isn't currently much of a factor at it's current level and I can't see it being further developed now that he has his Spider-Sense back. He isn't Anderson Silva, he had a few weeks of kung-fu training. Hell... the first thing that happened when he showed up in Spider-Island was Ms Marvel, Thing and Iron Fist rag dolling him because they assumed he was a random infecty.

George can't be condescending, he is a loser, I just thought it added some levity to the post. Although I do love the irony of the dur smilie master levying charges of condensation. Originally posted by srankmissingnin
http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lvyt5lj0xG1r3jyz9o1_500.gif

Isn't that what I said? NO! You said Digi was the dur master!!!! ranting

Spider-Man didn't just pick up fighting skills. Granted, he's relatively recently trained in martial arts in order to compensate for the lack of spider-sense, but Pete's also been fighting people out of his weightclass for years. If you gave any human Parker's powers and a 'couple weeks of hand to hand fighting training', I remain confident that Spider-Man would still steamroll them because, even if his 'professional MA training' is relatively minimal, his actual logged experience keeps him from being listed as a complete noob at hand to hand fighting.

Anyways, point being, with the sheer physical advantages that Spider-Man holds, and the fact that he remains to be at least a competent fighter (in contrast to Cap's demonstrably and significantly super skill), he should take the fair majority out of ten matches in this kind of set up.

It wasn't the spider sense that allowed Pete to get in hits in previous matches, and those hits would come faster and harder in a match where he's not written to pull his punches.

Originally posted by Badabing
NO! You said Digi was the dur master!!!! ranting

*gasp*

What have I done?

http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lq9kq5BY4R1qzkxjuo5_r1_500.gif

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
*gasp*

What have I done?

http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lq9kq5BY4R1qzkxjuo5_r1_500.gif You show great honor in your e-suicide. It is appreciated.

http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ltigohCWiI1qk77swo1_500.jpg

My e-suicide has restored honor to my family.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Spider-man is stronger and more durable than Cap, but IMO any speed difference between the two is slight and that can be chalked up to precog afforded to him by his Spider-Sense (which is not active in this thread). It really can't. He's just faster. Plain and simple.


Originally posted by srankmissingnin

which is what he used to beat on Spider-man in that Civil War fight. He read Spider-man like a book, picked up on his tells, got the timing down, and rolled over him. That's what he'll do here. In pure h2h Steve picks Spider-man apart with perfectly timed shots to nerve clusters and pressure points. Cap is just too skilled. What he did was get the typical "ZOMG how can I possibly punch the super awesome Captain America who is the symbol of the country" treatment. That's all it was. Kung fu. No kung fu. No holding back Spider-man wrecks Cap 10/10. Pounds him into a red smear. And if Cap tries to block with his shield rips his arm off his shoulder. End of story.

Originally posted by SamZED
It really can't. He's just faster. Plain and simple.


What he did was get the typical "ZOMG how can I possibly punch the super awesome Captain America who is the symbol of the country" treatment. That's all it was. Kung fu. No kung fu. No holding back Spider-man wrecks Cap 10/10. Pounds him into a red smear. And if Cap tries to block with his shield rips his arm off his shoulder. End of story.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lw03lvZnXD1qhxupko1_500.gif

If you find you have some free time this holiday season, try reading a Captain America comic. You know that movie that came out this summer? It's based on these comics I'm telling you about. I think you might enjoy his exploits.

Originally posted by Digi
Cap has good feats. But how are you accounting for the large degree of difference in speed, strength, and durability? We're talking like 15x in each category, and that's being generous to Cap, saying he's at 1-ton instead of peak human.

Cap had a good showing against Pete, they were portrayed a lot closer to equals than they should be imo. But I also think, even if we allow that feat, that everything else favors SM by a heavy margin. Even Pete's mid-range feats trump Caps best in all of the categories mentioned.

If you want, I'll give you 1-2/10. Cap's a great tactician. But that's generous as hell, imo.

Also, Kung Fu makes it unfair. He's still not going to be cap's MA equal of course, but it basically erases the only real trump card Cap has to play in this fight. 98 lb. weakling depowered Cap took down two SSS-enhanced supersoldiers. I can't even begin to quantify the strength/speed/durability advantages they had over him.

Cap's feats against the odds are more impressive. I'm not arguing that Cap is stronger (he's not), or faster (he's not), or that he's more durable sans shield (he's not). He's just more skilled than Spidey by a wide margin and knows him well enough that he controls the fight. Like he does so often against other opponents and as he demonstrated against Spidey.

Lowballing, imo. Spidey's done nothing to suggest he could outfight Cap in a dominating fashion. Outstat him by a fair margin, sure. Outfight, much less, completely outfight? No. Not in the least.

Shang tutoring him for weeks doesn't negate Cap's skill advantage. That's preposterous. Cap was training Spidey pre-Civil War himself. He's an amateur still. Dangerous because of his powers but he's not on a level that prevents him from being outskilled. Cap is one of, if not the best fighters. Spidey has to stand on a high chair to kiss his star-spangled a$$ when it comes to skill. Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Depending on the whims of the writer Spider-man can be anywhere between class 10 - 20. Like you pointed, this allows for the possibility of as low 5x strength disparity between the two characters. Now don't get me wrong, that is a substantial gape but it is not completely insurmountable for a skilled fighter even in the real world, never mind someone of Cap's caliber. Ditto for durability. Just look what powerless 80lbs beanpole Rogers did to those Super Soldiers in h2h.

Spider-man is stronger and more durable than Cap, but IMO any speed difference between the two is slight and that can be chalked up to precog afforded to him by his Spider-Sense (which is not active in this thread). For the sake of debate lets say you are right and Spider-man is 1.5 times or even twice as fast as Captain America, while what Cap has to counter that is undeniably better timing, which is what he used to beat on Spider-man in that Civil War fight. He read Spider-man like a book, picked up on his tells, got the timing down, and rolled over him. That's what he'll do here. In pure h2h Steve picks Spider-man apart with perfectly timed shots to nerve clusters and pressure points. Cap is just too skilled.

I'm not painting away Spider-man's skill. I said it isn't currently much of a factor at it's current level and I can't see it being further developed now that he has his Spider-Sense back. He isn't Anderson Silva, he had a few weeks of kung-fu training. Hell... the first thing that happened when he showed up in Spider-Island was Ms Marvel, Thing and Iron Fist rag dolling him because they assumed he was a random infecty. Co-signed. Every. Part.

Originally posted by Enzeru
1. Spider-Man was holding back, just like always when he fights people who are beneath his physical stats.

2. Spider-Man was holding even more on Captain America, because he respects him. Cap is probably his childhood hero.

3. Spider-Man was holding even more, since he was trying to convince Captain America that Tony is doing the right thing with the registration act.

4. Spider-Man dodged nearly all of Captain America's shield throws.

5. He webbed up Cap's shield to a wall and Cap had to return few hours later, to take his shield again, since he would not be able to break through the webbing.

6. That was not their "only" fight during Civil War.

Take a close look at the last panel of the very first scan. Do you see how Captain America is trying to ambush Spider-Man from behind and how near he is? Didn't do jack to Spider-Man: 1. So was Cap, because he never fights brutally or to maim/kill unless it's war.

2. So was Cap, because Peter's a good kid and great hero he's known for a long time.

3. So was Cap, because he knew Peter was struggling with his conscience and wasn't to blame, Tony was.

4. Because Cap meant to position Spidey right where he wanted him. Spidey even explains this in captions. You should reread the fight provided you haven't torn your copy to pieces in frustration. Fun fact: Cap dodged all of Spidey's webs also.

5. He webbed it up at the cost of nerve shots that partially paralyzed him from the waist down.

6. Cap can land cheap shots with a stealth suit in a superhero fracas also.

What Spidey did is nothing to masturbate over. Sounds like more of the same butthurt Spidey-fan disappointment.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Co-signed. Every. Part. looks like hell can host the next winter olympics

So we all agree Spiderman wins.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lw03lvZnXD1qhxupko1_500.gif

If you find you have some free time this holiday season, try reading a Captain America comic. You know that movie that came out this summer? It's based on these comics I'm telling you about. I think you might enjoy his exploits.


xYREs6PdWMg

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
98 lb. weakling depowered Cap took down two SSS-enhanced supersoldiers. I can't even begin to quantify the strength/speed/durability advantages they had over him. Who were all noname cannon fodder. Powerless Spider-man held his own against a bunch of robots who were all exact replicas of sinister six. All that is great but irrelevant here.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Lowballing, imo. Spidey's done nothing to suggest he could outfight Cap in a dominating fashion. Outstat him by a fair margin, sure. Outfight, much less, completely outfight? No. Not in the least.
Shang tutoring him for weeks doesn't negate Cap's skill advantage. That's preposterous. Cap was training Spidey pre-Civil War himself. He's an amateur still. Dangerous because of his powers but he's not on a level that prevents him from being outskilled. Cap is one of, if not the best fighters. Spidey has to stand on a high chair to kiss his star-spangled a$$ when it comes to skill. Co-signed. Every. Part. Calling him an amature is lowballing. He's no Cap clearly but he's a great fighter. Even before all the training. To say otherwise - completely ignore his showings. And comparing Spider-man (the one that fought Steve in CW) and say black-suited Spider-man (the one who fought Kingpin, Kraven and steamrolled most of his rogues gallery over night) is like comparing powerless Steve to a super soldier version. Read him like an open book? Cap's CIS in that fight didnt effect him nearly as much as Spider-man's CIS effected Peter. Steve is a soldier, when he fights he fights. Pete on the other hand was questioning his every move and still doubting if he should be fighting at all. Going all out he'll beat the livving crap outta Steve. Not because of MA skills but experience combined with superior stats. Think Cap's fight with Scorpion but even worse. When its over the only thing Steve will be reading is his hospital bills.

Originally posted by SamZED
Who were all noname cannon fodder. Powerless Spider-man held his own against a bunch of robots who were all exact replicas of sinister six. All that is great but irrelevant here. Like robots aren't cannon fodder? You're right, fighting robot replicas is completely irrelevant. And if you want to force that issue because replicas are somehow not fodder, Cap's beaten down a Namor clone in H2H. Namor would wreck Spidey in H2H. srankmissingnin and I pointed out 98 lb. Cap vs two SSS super soldiers for a distinct purpose: demonstrating that a physical stat advantage can be all but nullified by Cap's pure skill even if his opponent is many times stronger, faster and durable. He's shown it when the physical stats odds are stacked against him worse than they are with Spiderman. Spiderman's stat advantage is an unextraordinary fact when it comes to Cap. Originally posted by SamZED
Calling him an amature is lowballing. He's no Cap clearly but he's a great fighter. Even before all the training. To say otherwise - completely ignore his showings. And comparing Spider-man (the one that fought Steve in CW) and say black-suited Spider-man (the one who fought Kingpin, Kraven and steamrolled most of his rogues gallery over night) is like comparing powerless Steve to a super soldier version. Read him like an open book? Cap's CIS in that fight didnt effect him nearly as much as Spider-man's CIS effected Peter. Steve is a soldier, when he fights he fights. Pete on the other hand was questioning his every move and still doubting if he should be fighting at all. Going all out he'll beat the livving crap outta Steve. Not because of MA skills but experience combined with superior stats. Think Cap's fight with Scorpion but even worse. When its over the only thing Steve will be reading is his hospital bills. Spidey is an amateur when compared to Cap. Until he starts throwing down with seasoned martial artists on their level in real fights, he'll continue to be. And ya'll conveniently forget that Cap can go all out also. Ya'll also pretend that Steve wanted to fight/destroy Spidey. That was the last thing Cap wanted to do. Let's get things straight, Spidey was the one forcing the confrontation as Cap told him to walk away.

There is a reason Cap was working Spidey so hard in that fight. Spidey's hero worship of Cap was not the reason. Spidey didn't pin his beatdown on his unwillingness to hit Cap. Cap knowing Spidey's fighting style and Cap being so skilled that he could exploit it like clockwork was the reason. This was spelled out in black and white. One had nothing to do with the other.

This "Spidey CIS" is red herring horsecrap. It always has been.

Originally posted by Mindset
So we all agree Spiderman wins.

Can't see how he could lose, sans CIS/PIS.

Spideys one character that could work Danny Rand over. His strength alone should be enough to punch through Caps bones when he tries to block, and his speed feats are >>>>> Caps (Hell, they're > Cassandra Cain and Daredevil, who also has superior speed feats to Cap. Dodging wall to wall bullet storms while in mid air and computer guided laser battery's designed to adapt to his movements trumps precision deflection of bullets or matrix style dodging of half a dozen bullets, imo..)

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Like robots aren't cannon fodder? You're right, fighting robot replicas is completely irrelevant. And if you want to force that issue because replicas are somehow not fodder, Cap's beaten down a Namor clone in H2H. Namor would wreck Spidey in H2H. srankmissingnin and I pointed out 98 lb. Cap vs two SSS super soldiers for a distinct purpose: demonstrating that a physical stat advantage can be all but nullified by Cap's pure skill even if his opponent is many times stronger, faster and durable. He's shown it when the physical stats odds are stacked against him worse than they are with Spiderman. Spiderman's stat advantage is an unextraordinary fact when it comes to Cap. Spidey is an amateur when compared to Cap. And ya'll conveniently forget that Cap can go all out also. Ya'll also pretend that Steve wanted to fight/destroy Spidey. That was the last thing Cap wanted to do. Let's get things straight, Spidey was the one forcing the confrontation as Cap told him to walk away. Namor (the original) couldnt even TRACK Spider-man's movement in h2h. Robots are cannon fodder. Just like those super soldiers Steve beat. That was my point. Dont act like a good showing against cannon fodder (even with superior stats) is going to mean anything vs someone like Spider-man. As for CIS, read the inner monologue. He provoked the confrontation because he didnt know what else to do, it was an attempt to not lose the face and what he displayed in that fight was a bastars child of what Spider-man is normally capable of. While Cap fought like he always does. Dont try to compare Steve cutting loose to Spider-man going all out out. There's a huge difference. Steve just becomes more dangerous, Spider-man becomes >>> what he normally is and >>>>>>>>> what he was in that fight with Cap.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

There is a reason Cap was working Spidey so hard in that fight. Yeah, there was. Because "he's the symbol of the whole freaking country!"


Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Spidey's hero worship of Cap was not the reason. It was one of the reasons.


Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Cap knowing Spidey's fighting style and Cap being so skilled that he could exploit it like clockwork was the reason. One had nothing to do with the other. Spidey didn't pin his beatdown on his unwillingness to hit Cap. It was spelled out in black and white. That was ANOTHER reason, yes. Never argued that. And that is the case almost every time Spider-man fights experienced martial artists. That's how they put up a fight against him. But if you look at some of the fights it becomes crystal clear that only works as long as Spider-man CIS is involved. With Cap you can multiply that CIS by 10. But whenever he stops holding back that's no longer the case. All those martial artists who gave him trouble can no longer read him as an open book. They get oneshotted or humiliated in prolonged fights.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

This "Spidey CIS" is red herring horsecrap. It always has been. It's a fact, it was constantly stated over the years and proven many times over. He holds back when he fights supervillains. He holds back when he fights Green Goblin even. More so when he fights heros. And he can barely make himself fight at all when he's facing his childhood hero. And while Steve can read that version of Spider-man he's not surviving a CISless Spider-man. And im not even talking about the current MA Parker. Doesnt matter that he's currently not as skilled as Cap. We all know it doesnt take much to become a MA expert in comics, everyone and their grandma are stated to be experts. I think Hammerhead's bio says he's an expert h2h combatant. And someone like Tony Stark can make Steve break a swet.

It would be like pete's fight with that future Iron man. Once he's flipped out, spidey's gonna pound cap into a red smear on his fist.

The thing is, Spider-Man only needs one good punch and it's game over for Captain America.

And since when has Spider-Man trouble hitting his opponents ?

didn't taskmaster beat spidey once by knowing his moves? then the next time peter was po'd and basically beat the crap out of him? i could be misremembering, but i'm too damn lazy to look it up.....

Originally posted by Kid Kurdy
The thing is, Spider-Man only needs one good punch and it's game over for Captain America.

And since when has Spider-Man trouble hitting his opponents ? doc ock been one of the few people spideys ever had trouble hitting, and i dont think anyone would place cap on the same level as ock in that regard

Meh, Cap fighting and taking it to some super soldiers without his own SSS is impressive, but not a fair analogy- those soldiers are built and made to fight exactly like Cap does everyday, and it's no surprise that he would know exactly how to avoid being struck by one.

While he's familiar with Spider-Man's fighting style, the way that Parker moves and strikes isn't nearly as uniform as those soldiers or even Namor (who Steve really has no business taking it to in hand to hand combat, but whatever). Further, unlike nameless cannon fodder, Spider-Man is being treated in this discussion almost as if he doesn't have decades of crime fighting under his scarlet belt. It just comes off as a little crude to suggest that even with doubled speed, durability and what should be an insurmountable gap in strength and agility, that Parker lacks the sheer competence to hold up in a fight against Cap.

I agree, Steve is ridiculously more skilled, but I think Pete passes a threshold of competence as a fighter after which one would need to either become superhuman on a level that competes, or forfeit the battle. He knows how to roll with a punch and he knows how to deliver one, and he remains more than fast, agile, durable and competent enough to ensure that regardless of Steve's skill, he'll always be capable of reacting in some respect before struck.

Which, incidentally, is why nerve strikes sound bogus to me as an argument to be made here.

I realize martial artists like Karate Kid defy this logic, but I think those cases should be left as outliers and not used as an example for comic book fights across the board. I'll probably hear otherwise though.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Cap supporters have Cap's entire career and his entire feat repertoire also. If you were surprised that Cap made look Spidey look like a noob in Civil War, then you've surprised me as well. Not in the good way.

Spideys feats and abilities>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Caps feats and abilities.

So the Civil War fight was PIS at it's finest.

The only thing that gives Cap a chance is Spidey's CIS.

Originally posted by h1a8
Spideys feats and abilities>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Caps feats and abilities.

So the Civil War fight was PIS at it's finest.

The only thing that gives Cap a chance is Spidey's CIS.
They fought two times in CW.

The first time was a stalemate (with CA having a slight advantage, especially in the beginning, not so much at the end), the second time Spider-Man was having the upper hand.

Originally posted by Existere
Meh, Cap fighting and taking it to some super soldiers without his own SSS is impressive, but not a fair analogy- those soldiers are built and made to fight exactly like Cap does everyday, and it's no surprise that he would know exactly how to avoid being struck by one.

While he's familiar with Spider-Man's fighting style, the way that Parker moves and strikes isn't nearly as uniform as those soldiers or even Namor (who Steve really has no business taking it to in hand to hand combat, but whatever). Further, unlike nameless cannon fodder, Spider-Man is being treated in this discussion almost as if he doesn't have decades of crime fighting under his scarlet belt. It just comes off as a little crude to suggest that even with doubled speed, durability and what should be an insurmountable gap in strength and agility, that Parker lacks the sheer competence to hold up in a fight against Cap.

I agree, Steve is ridiculously more skilled, but I think Pete passes a threshold of competence as a fighter after which one would need to either become superhuman on a level that competes, or forfeit the battle. He knows how to roll with a punch and he knows how to deliver one, and he remains more than fast, agile, durable and competent enough to ensure that regardless of Steve's skill, he'll always be capable of reacting in some respect before struck.

Which, incidentally, is why nerve strikes sound bogus to me as an argument to be made here.

I realize martial artists like Karate Kid defy this logic, but I think those cases should be left as outliers and not used as an example for comic book fights across the board. I'll probably hear otherwise though.

i agree with pretty much all of this. considering spidey an amateur is a bit 'lowballish'. he's fared fine against ironfist and dd clearly acknowledges spidey's superiority. imo his collective strength, speed and durability adavantages>cap's skill advantage. in his fight with logan the skill advantage wasn't all that evident. his fights with dd and his fights with ironfist? same thing. spidey has his OWN style of fighting that incorporates his agility. i can see cap taking a couple, but the overwhelming majority should be spidey's.

Spider-Man isn't a black belt or super proficient in any given style or recognized discipline (barring Kung Fu Spidey as of recent issues), but that doesn't mean he's not skilled. He knows how to hit without being hit, and to be frank, given his massive physical advantages, that's all he really needs to know how to do. I get that people like Cap and Batman make their livings off of "out skilling" metas and even heralds from time to time, but if the physical advantages clearly outweigh the skill disparity, it doesn't matter. The fact of the matter is that Parker can hit harder than Cap, is fast and agile enough to do so even without spider sense, and Cap can't afford to be tagged often (if at all) against a half way serious Pete.

Comics speak for themselves. So do Spidey's own thoughts and comments opn the fight itself. Skill shouldn't be seen as a cure-all that can wipe even the most massive of physical disadvantages cleanly away.

But the reticence to admit that Cap's skill and his uncanny ability to exploit Spidey's fighting style is ignorant. It completely ignores what was portrayed. And this garbage about CIS is red herring garbage anyway. CIS isn't off on this fight anyway. If ymany of you believe that his hero worship CIS is that crippling, well it's on anyway.

This isn't Spiderman vs Firelord PIS. It's Cap vs Spiderman. Cap's dealyt with worse odds where he didn't completely use a person's fighting style against him.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Comics speak for themselves. So do Spidey's own thoughts and comments opn the fight itself. Skill shouldn't be seen as a cure-all that can wipe even the most massive of physical disadvantages cleanly away.

But the reticence to admit that Cap's skill and his uncanny ability to exploit Spidey's fighting style is ignorant. It completely ignores what was portrayed. And this garbage about CIS is red herring garbage anyway. CIS isn't off on this fight anyway. If ymany of you believe that his hero worship CIS is that crippling, well it's on anyway.

This isn't Spiderman vs Firelord PIS. It's Cap vs Spiderman. Cap's dealyt with worse odds where he didn't completely use a person's fighting style against him.

What you don't understand is Spidey is a lot faster than Cap if he wants to be. So using a person's fighting style against them doesn't work if they are faster. Imagine Spidey throwing a punch at Cap from point blank range (3 feet away). Do you think Cap is fast enough to dodge or block the attack? Now because of Spidey's CIS he will hold back and not punch as hard (as fast). But you see what I mean, it's Spidey's CIS that makes this a fight.

What is portrayed has nothing to do with what will happen in a forum fight. You are a great debator but this is your weakness. You fail to see that characters won't operate at sub par showings in a forum (as they do in comics) when facing individuals they really can beat easily.
Comics have jobbing, CIS, plot, for the sake of the story, etc. that dictates the outcome of a battle.

It's best to take true elements of the comic fight as evidence and not the outcome that was based off some false elements.

Originally posted by h1a8
What you don't understand is Spidey is a lot faster than Cap if he wants to be. So using a person's fighting style against them doesn't work if they are faster. Imagine Spidey throwing a punch at Cap from point blank range (3 feet away). Do you think Cap is fast enough to dodge or block the attack? Now because of Spidey's CIS he will hold back and not punch as hard (as fast). But you see what I mean, it's Spidey's CIS that makes this a fight. Do you disagree that Cap has proven himself capable of knowing Spidey's fighting style so well that he basically controls the fight in spite of Spidey's speed?

I don't believe Spidey jobbed to Cap. I don't believe Spidey's loss had anything to do with his hero worship. I don't believe that Spidey's speed is so insurmountable that Cap winning could never be a result of anything else other than Spidey losing for the sake of plot. Originally posted by h1a8
What is portrayed has nothing to do with what will happen in a forum fight. You are a great debator but this is your weakness. You fail to see that characters won't operate at sub par showings in a forum (as they do in comics) when facing individuals they really can beat easily.
Comics have jobbing, CIS, plot, for the sake of the story, etc. that dictates the outcome of a battle.

It's best to take true elements of the comic fight as evidence and not the outcome that was based off some false elements. I disagree. I think that's ignorant. It was clearly portrayed that Cap just knows him so well, that he controlled the pace of the fight and worked him. It was Mr. X-ish if that makes sense. Mr. X doesn't have better stats than Wolverine, but when they first fought, he knew what Wolverine was doing before Wolverine knew it. That allowed Mr. X to completely work Wolverine. And you can't ignore that unless you think Cap could never know Spidey that well. Based on Cap's skill, I hardly think anybody would argue that is outside Cap's ability.

I'm not saying Spiderman's stats can never win over Cap. After all, Cap just lost to the new Venom -- mainly by virtue of his Spidey-like stats. But the clear difference between the two is that Cap knows Spidey, he doesn't know Venom.

And I don't think Spidey's new skills have risen to the level of changing that dynamic completely. Frankly, Spidey's skills seem to change the way he strikes (more precisely, and sometimes with pressure points rather than fists). It hasn't struck me that he moves completely differently. If there is evidence of that, I'd be happy to change my opinion. Because I do agree, that if Spidey's fighting style has completely changed, Cap's in trouble.