Does this sound like plausible

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Lestov16
The CIA sell out the address of a retired agent to criminals ( who kill the man's family in an attempted framed "paternal familicide"wink a in return for the info on a major terrorist ringleader

Also, I know why the criminals want him dead, but I can not figure out how they found out about his identity. Could you help me brainstorm?

Digi
It was all a dream (within a dream). The man who sells CIA secrets is really a 25-year-old female stripper trying to pay her way through college. A group of broke but brilliant computer nerds are trying to imprint the idea of selling her values into her so that they can entice her into sex.

....

So, like, what's the context here? What exactly are you looking for? Is this a script, your next door neighbor, a class project?

Bardock42
Originally posted by Lestov16
The CIA sell out the address of a retired agent to criminals ( who kill the man's family in an attempted framed "paternal familicide"wink a in return for the info on a major terrorist ringleader

Also, I know why the criminals want him dead, but I can not figure out how they found out about his identity. Could you help me brainstorm?

YeaNOOOOOOO

Lestov16
Originally posted by Digi
It was all a dream (within a dream). The man who sells CIA secrets is really a 25-year-old female stripper trying to pay her way through college. A group of broke but brilliant computer nerds are trying to imprint the idea of selling her values into her so that they can entice her into sex.

....

So, like, what's the context here? What exactly are you looking for? Is this a script, your next door neighbor, a class project?

action film basis, but I desire a plausible one

Digi
To what end?

RobsonThomson
I'm unsure..

Deja~vu
Originally posted by RobsonThomson
I'm unsure.. OK eat

Lestov16
Originally posted by Digi
To what end?

I'm trying to construct a good skilled-badass-against-the-government action adventure. I want the reason he was betrayed against the government to clearly be for utilitarian good (the stopping of the terrorist leads to the prevention of several suicide bombings), but I want the protagonist to be so enraged that he ignores this

ADarksideJedi
Originally posted by Digi
It was all a dream (within a dream). The man who sells CIA secrets is really a 25-year-old female stripper trying to pay her way through college. A group of broke but brilliant computer nerds are trying to imprint the idea of selling her values into her so that they can entice her into sex.

....

So, like, what's the context here? What exactly are you looking for? Is this a script, your next door neighbor, a class project?

It sounds like a good idea for a book. smile

inimalist
Originally posted by Lestov16
The CIA sell out the address of a retired agent to criminals ( who kill the man's family in an attempted framed "paternal familicide"wink a in return for the info on a major terrorist ringleader

it sounds a little bit campy, but it is not unreasonable to think an agent within the CIA would do such a thing. You will have to think of a reason why the entire intelligence community doesn't turn against the leaker though, as the vast majority of the people who work for the CIA would not support such a thing. It could be an Oliver North type situation, where the guy is just segregated enough from the day to day operations such that he can do what he wants, but the brass of the CIA would never support something like this. It is literally treason. Capital offense treason.

Originally posted by Lestov16
Also, I know why the criminals want him dead, but I can not figure out how they found out about his identity. Could you help me brainstorm?

Isn't that what they sold out the terrorist leader for?

**************

From what you have said in the thread, it seems like you are more interested in an action story than in any sort of true crime realism, so I'd actually focus less on whether there is a good reason for the bad guys to act the way they do, and sort of try to focus on how the scenes in the story are going to play out in a compelling and action oriented way. someone reading an action novel really isn't going to need a heavy background of the criminal organizations they are fighting, or isn't going to be judging whether the level of espionage sophistication you give an Islamist group really accurately reflects the way these organizations are typically structured. It will be more important that the story resolves itself through intriguing dialogue, tense action sequences and some type of not necessarily predictable but certainly interpretable climax.

I'm not trying to say something can't be action packed and also filled with realism, however, you would need a bit more of a nuanced premise than "rogue CIA agent" to do that. In the modern CIA, that guy would be out the door on his ass faster than the terrorists could mount any kind of attack, save some MacGuffins that themselves would break down the realism. I'd honestly suggest looking up previous stories from the CIA or other intelligence agencies and using those as a starting block for influence if you want to make it more realistic and plausible.

Mindship
Originally posted by Lestov16
The CIA sell out the address of a retired agent to criminals ( who kill the man's family in an attempted framed "paternal familicide"wink a in return for the info on a major terrorist ringleader

Also, I know why the criminals want him dead, but I can not figure out how they found out about his identity. Could you help me brainstorm? Let me see if I have this right...

1. The CIA wants info on a major terrorist leader.
2. A certain group of criminals has that info.
3. For the CIA to get it, they give the criminals the address of a retired agent.
4. The criminals kill the agent's family, trying to make it look like the agent did it.
5. The author (you) know why the criminals did #4.
6. What the author doesn't know is, how did the criminals figure out the agent's identity.

Wouldn't having the address help? I mean, the CIA said, This is where he lives. And wouldn't the criminals especially want the agent's name? "Tell us who he is and vhere to find him, or ve vill not tell you vhat you vant to know."

Maybe it's me, but something's not adding up. But I like the idea (for a film adaptation, I'm seeing John Travolta and Angelina Jolie).

Lestov16
Originally posted by inimalist
it sounds a little bit campy, but it is not unreasonable to think an agent within the CIA would do such a thing. You will have to think of a reason why the entire intelligence community doesn't turn against the leaker though, as the vast majority of the people who work for the CIA would not support such a thing. It could be an Oliver North type situation, where the guy is just segregated enough from the day to day operations such that he can do what he wants, but the brass of the CIA would never support something like this. It is literally treason. Capital offense treason.

I know it sounds campy. I'm not looking for Tom Clancy-level realism. Brad Thor-level is what I'm aiming for (without the rampant jingoist Islamophobia, of course). I might have it as just one high-up who authorizes the betrayal. But I want the betrayal to get results, so it can be argued as necessary


Originally posted by inimalist
Isn't that what they sold out the terrorist leader for?

I mean how do the criminals even know where to start looking?
**************

Originally posted by inimalist From what you have said in the thread, it seems like you are more interested in an action story than in any sort of true crime realism, so I'd actually focus less on whether there is a good reason for the bad guys to act the way they do, and sort of try to focus on how the scenes in the story are going to play out in a compelling and action oriented way.someone reading an action novel really isn't going to need a heavy background of the criminal organizations they are fighting, or isn't going to be judging whether the level of espionage sophistication you give an Islamist group really accurately reflects the way these organizations are typically structured. It will be more important that the story resolves itself through intriguing dialogue, tense action sequences and some type of not necessarily predictable but certainly interpretable climax.

I know, but I'm OCD about plot holes (Damn that Redlettermedia review!)

Originally posted by inimalist
I'd honestly suggest looking up previous stories from the CIA or other intelligence agencies and using those as a starting block for influence if you want to make it more realistic and plausible.

Do you know where I could start? The only thing I've been able to find was about the Plame affair


Originally posted by Mindship
Maybe it's me, but something's not adding up.

I know sad . That's what i'm trying to troubleshoot

Deja~vu
How about bribing a high official. Money always talks. OR kidnapping a loved one. Maybe computer geek crap?

rotiart
When you say "criminal" I think random thug...
And I can't imagine the CIA selling out their own to thugs for possible information. It just doesn't sound believable to me at all.

I COULD however see a story about revenge go wrong...
Two agents... One promotion? One girl they both wanted...

In the end the first agent feels remorse cause the girl he wanted is dead when all he wanted was the guy out of the way... Etc kind of story...

Or maybe a story where your agent was captured and our government in order to keep a higher official safe from harm threw your hero under the bus..

siriuswriter
Originally posted by Mindship
Maybe it's me, but something's not adding up. But I like the idea (for a film adaptation, I'm seeing John Travolta and Angelina Jolie).

Mmmm... not Travolta. He could pull it off in his "Lonely Hearts" days, when his hair was actually his and it actually moved by his exertions. He's gone flabby, if it were tongue in cheek he could probably play it, like in "To Paris With Love."

This has Jodie Foster written all over it, as the CIA representative. Denzel Washington as the agent? He plays really good "rebel" roles, which is sort of what the agent is. Ryan Phillippe has played a similar role, but I don't know if he's old enough to play a father/family man. Leo Di Caprio... ooh, that has possibilities.

Helen Mirren has to be in here somewhere, the leader of the criminals? She was so good in "Red," at least I'm pretty sure that's what it was called. Because obviously this has to be an organized gang, maybe they hate the agent because he killed one of them in some kind of con years ago, when he was still CIA?

The wife... the wife... mmmmmmm. Someone kind but tough when she needs to be. Sandra Bullock?

There ya go, Lestov. Just let me know when you're shooting and I'll cast the thing. big grin

Mindship
Originally posted by siriuswriter
Helen Mirren thumb up thumb up

Lestov16
The protagonists family is killed in a car bomb (meant for him). The CIA will not allow him to investigate. He goes rogue and discovers that the Deputy Director (on orders from some White House Official) leaked his name to a powerful criminal in exchange for info on a major terrorist leader (who has recently been performing many bombings), violating the Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1982 for what they patriotically believe is the greater good. The info the criminal gives them checks out and they stop they attack, saving thousands, but the protagonist wants revenge, and the criminal agrees to be a CIA asset, and offers the location of a major WMD being sold on the black market if they find and kill the protagonist

Please somebody! Point out the flaws!

Digi
Originally posted by Lestov16
Please somebody! Point out the flaws!

It's cliche.

And one paragraph.

Is this a book? A screenplay? You need a lot more, even in just an abstract, to have a worthwhile pitch/plot/etc.

Also no Helen Mirren.

Lestov16
Originally posted by Digi
It's cliche.

And one paragraph.

Is this a book? A screenplay? You need a lot more, even in just an abstract, to have a worthwhile pitch/plot/etc.

Also no Helen Mirren.

this is the back story to the protagonist, who is part of a far larger plot. I have all of the flesh crafted, I'm just trying to make I have a rigid skeleton. i'm only aiming for some one who would enjoy, say, Brad Thor. I'm just trying to create a good popcorn action novel with suspense, I'm not trying to revolutionize the genre with anything innovative. And Helen Mirren is the White House officiall

Robtard
Originally posted by Lestov16
The CIA sell out the address of a retired agent to criminals ( who kill the man's family in an attempted framed "paternal familicide"wink a in return for the info on a major terrorist ringleader

Also, I know why the criminals want him dead, but I can not figure out how they found out about his identity. Could you help me brainstorm?

If the premise is that the criminals already know who the retired CIA agent is, it's silly to think they'd need the CIA to get his home address.

So I'd ignore it and go with them trading info on the agent's identity and location as a package deal.

Also, Ashton Kutcher wants to star as the lead CIA agent.

siriuswriter
Yes! Mirren's IN!

inimalist
hey, i've been lurking around the thread for a bit, sorry this is a bit late, but I'm going to chop from parts of your posts, just because you have clarified some other stuff since.

Originally posted by Lestov16
I know it sounds campy. I'm not looking for Tom Clancy-level realism. Brad Thor-level is what I'm aiming for (without the rampant jingoist Islamophobia, of course). I might have it as just one high-up who authorizes the betrayal. But I want the betrayal to get results, so it can be argued as necessary

I didn't mean campy as bad. Sometimes the reason something is a cliche is because it hits a part of each of our psyches where we are talking about some sort of assumed universal truths.

People accept that the powerful do corrupt and terrible things. Just because it might be campy to have "rouge CIA agent pragmatically betrays his friends for patriotism" as a premise, it doesn't mean the hook doesn't work. You said it yourself, or at least alluded with the fact that the betrayal can be argued as necessary. There IS a logic to this type of calculated villain, and it is why it works so well. That evil person who is driven by some overarching sense of duty hits everyone in an uncomfortable place, right? so please, don't take that as criticism so much as to say, if you are going to rely on these archetypes, there are probably other things that you can play to rather than trying to be literally accurate.

For instance, in the sort of summary you describe, you say:

Originally posted by Lestov16
Deputy Director (on orders from some White House Official) leaked his name to a powerful criminal in exchange for info on a major terrorist leader (who has recently been performing many bombings)

the unfortunate truth is that, in any realistic scenario, the "action" part of your novel is now over. The CIA agent takes this information to some other branch of the government or press, and the remainder of your novel is senate hearings, impeachment proceedings and so forth. The judicial infrastructure, or at least the journalistic infrastructure, is already there to deal with this type of crime. For the media, this type of thing is a wet dream, as it would ensure some form of award for being the one to break the story. Any aspiring politician would love to cut their teeth taking the administration to task on an issue like this. Hell, the "Fast and Furious" debacle wasn't half as treasonous or terrible as what you are describing and there are fairly public hearings ongoing about that.

If your world is the cliche world where power corrupts all and it is plausible that a rogue CIA agent would wage a vendetta war against his own government/criminals, the intricacies of political institutions are not so important, because the audience you are targeting wants this sort of surreal action and visceral experience rather than a technical look at political power.

For instance, this is why I think Equilibrium works so well as an action flick. It has a trite concept, its characters are archetypal at best and the story is as formulaic as it is contrived. Yet, everything it does well, its action sequences, the gun kata, the choreography, it is breathtaking and totally immerses you in a universe that, you know, probably doesn't make perfect logical sense, but god damn, you want to be there and ninja fight with bullets so bad!

Actually, I think you may have totally nailed this with your reference to Tom Clancy. imho, he isn't actually that amazing of a writer in terms of the realism we are discussing here. Certainly his stories are complex, and I am not taking the piss at all, seriously, but in terms of an accurate reflection of logical sequences of events that might happen geopolitically, I don't think that is his selling point. The details he does know are things like intricate specifications about military equipment and things specific to what his readers are going to really want to know for their experience.

Originally posted by Lestov16
I mean how do the criminals even know where to start looking?
**************

Well, it really depends on the context, what did the agent do to get this criminal organization's attention? However, I do agree with Robtard, if the agent's identity is already known, and the criminal organization you are talking about has access to black market nukes, or at least to the goings on in that market, there is no realistic reason why they would need to trade. Realistically, that criminal organization would have espionage capacity easily great enough to track down someone they already knew the identity of.

I suppose I just said "don't worry about realism" in so many words, but like, to have them trade for the agent's identity versus simply just his location seems just as useful as a plot-point, builds a bit of mystique and power into your criminal group ("we just need a name, the rest we can do alone"wink, not to mention realism, and is a far greater act of betrayal, really making your villain look like a dick.

In terms of stuff to look up on this, I might even suggest looking at the recent intelligence operation by Hezbollah in Lebanon, where what the media talk about in terms of "cave dwelling trrists" outsmarted the CIA using cellular technology and effectively neutralized most of the agents they had working for them. Also, the current "cyber" war between Anonymous and various Mexican drug cartels might be useful, just to give an impression of what sophistication criminal organizations might have in terms of espionage. Of course, if you are looking for examples of just technical sophistication from criminal groups in general, the Eastern European and Russian gangs are good, as are hacker groups from Brazil, and obviously the nationalist Chinese.

Originally posted by Lestov16
I know, but I'm OCD about plot holes (Damn that Redlettermedia review!)

See, I wouldn't worry much about that. Haters gonna hate. I'm probably terrible to take advice from, as my writing is more academic than narrative, but like, I think there is always a trade. Details and mood are different, almost oppositional things, in that, when you take space on a page to describe one, you lose the other. Now, for sure, you need details about mood relevant items, but those details serve to enhance the experience. Unless you feel there is something that needs essentially some type of literal description to move the story forward, I'd say focusing on drawing the reader into the mood is going to benefit you more than drawing the reader into meticulous details about how the power systems work.

Originally posted by Lestov16
Do you know where I could start? The only thing I've been able to find was about the Plame affair

there are tonnes of examples, and I suppose it really depends more on what you want examples of, but I'd say for sure start with a look at Oliver North and his behaviour while head of the NSA. In the wake of 9-11, Robert Behr and Richard Clarke wrote good books that sort of talk about day-to-day workings of being a spy or the attitudes of people who work in intelligence, but as with all this stuff, there is a lot of bravado.

Actually, that might be a way to take this. A lot of the "stories" about "spy games" during the cold war are actually fabrications that the spies themselves came up with because of all the rumors they constantly heard. Some type of conspiratorial paranoia in the rogue agent might be good, idk...

Originally posted by Lestov16
The protagonists family is killed in a car bomb (meant for him). The CIA will not allow him to investigate. He goes rogue and discovers that the Deputy Director (on orders from some White House Official) leaked his name to a powerful criminal in exchange for info on a major terrorist leader (who has recently been performing many bombings), violating the Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1982 for what they patriotically believe is the greater good. The info the criminal gives them checks out and they stop they attack, saving thousands, but the protagonist wants revenge, and the criminal agrees to be a CIA asset, and offers the location of a major WMD being sold on the black market if they find and kill the protagonist

Please somebody! Point out the flaws!

save what I said above, it isn't bad, and will probably work well as a basic premise for the type of thing you are aiming for.

I know this is just a synopsis you through at us quickly, but I'd say the main conflict and climax does need to be fleshed out a bit. Who is the main antagonist? Is the agent fighting the CIA? the criminals? both? some weird CIA/criminal amalgamation? etc.

Lestov16
Originally posted by inimalist
Who is the main antagonist? Is the agent fighting the CIA? the criminals? both? some weird CIA/criminal amalgamation? etc.

One of my larger problems. I'm not sure how to play this. There are so many routes to choose from. I know the criminal will be hunting him down, but I'm not sure how to fit the CIA in:

- CIA simply want the protagonist dead so that he will not expose the conspiracy
- criminal bargained for CIA to kill him in exchange for more info when original attempt fails
- criminal is a valuable CIA asset, and CIA don't want to apprehend him


or some merge?
Do any of these sound plausible for the audience to not be confused?

Mindship
The more I read, the more I get the impression you're "all over the place" with this story. May I suggest, get back to basics.

- Who is your main character? Remember, any story is ultimately about a character (not theme, not plot) and how he/she changes as events unfold.
- What is the character's motivation?
- Develop backstory. Get to know all your characters and environment, write notes and notes on them if you have to (keeping in mind that most of this backstory will never see the light of day).
- While not all writers follow this approach, some find it useful to develop a general story outline.

If you develop all these things properly, your story could well end up writing itself. One of the coolest things about writing is seeing a character do something that the author had not initially planned.

Lestov16
Originally posted by Mindship
The more I read, the more I get the impression you're "all over the place" with this story. May I suggest, get back to basics.

- Who is your main character? Remember, any story is ultimately about a character (not theme, not plot) and how he/she changes as events unfold.
- What is the character's motivation?
- Develop backstory. Get to know all your characters and environment, write notes and notes on them if you have to (keeping in mind that most of this backstory will never see the light of day).
- While not all writers follow this approach, some find it useful to develop a general story outline.

If you develop all these things properly, your story could well end up writing itself. One of the coolest things about writing is seeing a character do something that the author had not initially planned.

That's the thing, this is the backstory (to another story)

Lestov16
Years ago, a corrupt senator and his oil cabal had a cia team assassinate a prime minister who was going to nationalize his oil fields. now, years later, one of the team members threatens to sell info about the op to a rival politician. the corrupt senator and his cia henchmen kill him and go to kill every other team member to be safe. one retired team member's family is killed in an attempt on his life, and he goes for revenge


POINT OUT AS MANY PLOT HOLES AS YOU CAN FIND

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Lestov16
Years ago, a corrupt senator and his oil cabal had a cia team assassinate a prime minister who was going to nationalize his oil fields. now, years later, one of the team members threatens to sell info about the op to a rival politician. the corrupt senator and his cia henchmen kill him and go to kill every other team member to be safe. one retired team member's family is killed in an attempt on his life, and he goes for revenge


POINT OUT AS MANY PLOT HOLES AS YOU CAN FIND

Not bad, but didn't Mel Gibson do that movie? jk

Barker
Originally posted by Digi
It was all a dream (within a dream). The man who sells CIA secrets is really a 25-year-old female stripper trying to pay her way through college. A group of broke but brilliant computer nerds are trying to imprint the idea of selling her values into her so that they can entice her into sex.

....

So, like, what's the context here? What exactly are you looking for? Is this a script, your next door neighbor, a class project?
Audible haermms.

Lestov16
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Not bad, but didn't Mel Gibson do that movie? jk

If anything, I'd be surprised if Steven "Fat Bastard" Segal didn't make a low-budget film with this premise

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Not bad, but didn't Mel Gibson do that movie? jk No no, it was Matt Damon. I think it was called the Born Supremity, or something.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
No no, it was Matt Damon. I think it was called the Born Supremity, or something.

Oh ya, I remember, watching all three of those movies, in one night.

Lestov16
Originally posted by Lestov16



POINT OUT AS MANY PLOT HOLES AS YOU CAN FIND

Lord Lucien
I just did, it was Matt Damon. God, anything for attention...

Lestov16
Why would a former agent sell state secrets to a rival politician. I could understand the motive for selling them, but would a politician act on that info?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Lestov16
Why would a former agent sell state secrets to a rival politician. I could understand the motive for selling them, but would a politician act on that info?

What if it was a set up?

Lestov16
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
What if it was a set up?

a set-up by whom?

Robtard
Originally posted by Lestov16
a set-up by whom?

Himself, since he suffers from Dissociative Identity Disorder. The plot thickens.

Thoren
I'm generally confused.

Retired CIA agent
Thugs who want to kill him
CIA gives away his retirement location to said thugs
They off his family for one reason, and not him
He goes ssj99999999999
Prevents a lot of suicide bombers from going to hell

Maybe the terrorist cell want this agent dead because he killed one of their leaders, and they want revenge, and the agent who sold him out is an homegrown terrorist in cahoots with the terrorist cell?

Lestov16
Originally posted by Thoren
I'm generally confused.

Retired CIA agent
Thugs who want to kill him
CIA gives away his retirement location to said thugs
They off his family for one reason, and not him
He goes ssj99999999999
Prevents a lot of suicide bombers from going to hell

Maybe the terrorist cell want this agent dead because he killed one of their leaders, and they want revenge, and the agent who sold him out is an homegrown terrorist in cahoots with the terrorist cell?



I decided not to go with this plot because it cast too sympathetic a light on the government conspirators (the villains). Could you give my new plot a look through though and tell me what doesn't make sense about that?

Thoren
Originally posted by Lestov16
Years ago, a corrupt senator and his oil cabal had a cia team assassinate a prime minister who was going to nationalize his oil fields. now, years later, one of the team members threatens to sell info about the op to a rival politician. the corrupt senator and his cia henchmen kill him and go to kill every other team member to be safe. one retired team member's family is killed in an attempt on his life, and he goes for revenge


POINT OUT AS MANY PLOT HOLES AS YOU CAN FIND
1. You're trying to make a killer be made to be a victim.
2. I wouldn't really care if they did kill his family, he basically reaped what he sowed.
3. A Senator needs to be in some sort of partnership with the CIA, otherwise why would it be believable that he can so easily use CIA resources.

Either the Senator is on some sort of oversight committee, or he and the Director of the CIA are in it together.
Don't say henchmen, they're assets. And let them be unawares, let them be misguided by the motives of the Senator/anyone else he is working with.
Don't make it a Prime Minister, make a foreign dignitary, but maybe someone like Minister of Agriculture, who doesn't want oil to be drilled, and they need him out of the way, so the can get dibs on the oil.
Make the Agent who wants to sell the info, actually be a good guy, maybe he wants to give the info, not sell it, to the media, which would expose the whole conflict.
He is hunted down and killed, but before he is, he's given the info to his teammates. And have them on the run, fighting to stay alive.

That's what I got. srug

Lestov16
Originally posted by Thoren
1. You're trying to make a killer be made to be a victim.
2. I wouldn't really care if they did kill his family, he basically reaped what he sowed.


This is the backstory someone who will be a supporting character (Hannibal Lecter-Riddick -type) in a larger story

Thoren
ermmnone

inimalist
Originally posted by Lestov16
Years ago, a corrupt senator and his oil cabal had a cia team assassinate a prime minister who was going to nationalize his oil fields. now, years later, one of the team members threatens to sell info about the op to a rival politician. the corrupt senator and his cia henchmen kill him and go to kill every other team member to be safe. one retired team member's family is killed in an attempt on his life, and he goes for revenge


POINT OUT AS MANY PLOT HOLES AS YOU CAN FIND

man, Thoren actually hit the big points I was thinking of. Mainly, as a sympathetic character, the agent who loses his family hardly works. He not only was involved in, but was entirely complicit to, the killing of the foreign leader and other members of his unit. That you want to make him a secondary character is probably a good choice, but it is someone who the reader wont, or at least shouldn't, be able to personally identify with. Off the top of my head, this almost sounds like it would be better if you made these individuals mercenaries for a company like Blackwater rather than CIA operatives, as I have a lot of trouble believing that a soldier would be totally cool with members of his former unit being killed, and would only be motivated once his own family was harmed. However, a soldier of fortune is, by definition almost, much more personally and egocentrically driven.

This also makes it easier to tie the senator into the unit. Maybe the mercenary corporation pays him lots in campaign contributions, maybe he sits on their board, whatever, the connection can be much more familiar rather than bureaucratic, as again like Thoren pointed out, a single senator wouldn't have one CIA hit squad, let alone a second years later willing to kill the first (again, using the CIA or army brings up the issue of "would soldiers really turn against their own for no good reason"wink.

I think there is also a big issue with the "clean up". In order to keep a lid on his activities, the senator decides that it is best if he kills not only the person who was going to leak the information, but individuals who have been loyal to him for years? Not only would this be the option that attracts the most attention (ie: not a cover up at all), it is also the one most likely to motivate retaliation or get a different member of the team to want to leak. It can work if you fit it into his character, like, make the senator impulsive and short sighted, but logically, it is a terrible idea. These other team members have been loyal, its not hard to think they would still be loyal and might see the leaking individual as a traitor. Its like using a sledge hammer to drive a small nail into soft wood. Sure, the senator looks evil, impulsive, and it shows he has the power to cause great violence, etc. But it also makes him look very weak and not very tactical, like he only has one tool in his arsenal, and if violence doesn't work, WTF is he going to do? It can work, but only if that is the character you want him to be.

LOL, I'll use a comic book reference. Who works better as a villain, Lex Luthor or Doomsday? With no doubt, Doomsday has more physical power, he can do more violence, he can kill more individuals in terrible ways, and you fear him because you understand viscerally what he is about. He threatens you on that basic animal level, where you fear death, but thats it. He has one trick, he does it exceptionally well, but he is limited to how well that violence works in a given context. Luthor is different. When written well (**** this techno suit BS), any competent MMA or whatever should be able to beat him physically, and therefore, he doesn't really threaten you in that way. Your basic animal instincts aren't terrified by him as a physical being. But, his cunning and planning make him able to contend with those who would otherwise be Gods. The terror is cognitive. Like, if you were trapped in a room with Doomsday, you know what to expect, quick violent death. With Luthor, you have no idea. His motives, his mechanisms, all of this are essentially impenetrable. It is the unknown essentially. He might not have omnipotent levels of violence, but there is no scenario in which he isn't a threat.

Doomsday works when you want to fill 17 pages with splash art of Superman getting punched in the face. Luthor works when you want a cerebral enemy and a plot driven read. If your story is going to be about guns and bombs and killing and explosions, perfect, go with the senator who is impulsive and kills on a whim "just-in-case". That villain will work, people will understand his power instantly and know why they are afraid. If you want to get the villain under people's skin though, if you want people to question him, to question their own interpretation of the story, his actions can't be so blunt. I remember you talking earlier about wanting to make people question if what the senator was doing was right (ie: killing the agent might be pragmatic to prevent something worse), the only way you can do that is if your senator isn't just ham-fistedly killing anyone he perceives as being even a potential threat. jesus... this turned into another TLDR way too fast... sorry sad

anyways, about why the one agent might sell the info, make him get depressed after the assassination or for some other reason, turn to gambling and think this is a way to pay off his debts. Or drug addiction, etc. Hell, make him question the American government and want to sell the information to a foreign government.

Lestov16
Originally posted by inimalist
man, Thoren actually hit the big points I was thinking of. Mainly, as a sympathetic character, the agent who loses his family hardly works. He not only was involved in, but was entirely complicit to, the killing of the foreign leader and other members of his unit. That you want to make him a secondary character is probably a good choice, but it is someone who the reader wont, or at least shouldn't, be able to personally identify with. Off the top of my head, this almost sounds like it would be better if you made these individuals mercenaries for a company like Blackwater rather than CIA operatives, as I have a lot of trouble believing that a soldier would be totally cool with members of his former unit being killed, and would only be motivated once his own family was harmed. However, a soldier of fortune is, by definition almost, much more personally and egocentrically driven.

This also makes it easier to tie the senator into the unit. Maybe the mercenary corporation pays him lots in campaign contributions, maybe he sits on their board, whatever, the connection can be much more familiar rather than bureaucratic, as again like Thoren pointed out, a single senator wouldn't have one CIA hit squad, let alone a second years later willing to kill the first (again, using the CIA or army brings up the issue of "would soldiers really turn against their own for no good reason"wink.

I think there is also a big issue with the "clean up". In order to keep a lid on his activities, the senator decides that it is best if he kills not only the person who was going to leak the information, but individuals who have been loyal to him for years? Not only would this be the option that attracts the most attention (ie: not a cover up at all), it is also the one most likely to motivate retaliation or get a different member of the team to want to leak. It can work if you fit it into his character, like, make the senator impulsive and short sighted, but logically, it is a terrible idea. These other team members have been loyal, its not hard to think they would still be loyal and might see the leaking individual as a traitor. Its like using a sledge hammer to drive a small nail into soft wood. Sure, the senator looks evil, impulsive, and it shows he has the power to cause great violence, etc. But it also makes him look very weak and not very tactical, like he only has one tool in his arsenal, and if violence doesn't work, WTF is he going to do? It can work, but only if that is the character you want him to be.



This is why I added the "rival politician" angle in Would a politician use something like this for leverage? If so, The senator could be running for president or vice president in a fierce political campaign, which would give him incentive to cover his tracks

LOL, I'll use a comic book reference. Who works better as a villain, Lex Luthor or Doomsday? With no doubt, Doomsday has more physical power, he can do more violence, he can kill more individuals in terrible ways, and you fear him because you understand viscerally what he is about. He threatens you on that basic animal level, where you fear death, but thats it. He has one trick, he does it exceptionally well, but he is limited to how well that violence works in a given context. Luthor is different. When written well (**** this techno suit BS), any competent MMA or whatever should be able to beat him physically, and therefore, he doesn't really threaten you in that way. Your basic animal instincts aren't terrified by him as a physical being. But, his cunning and planning make him able to contend with those who would otherwise be Gods. The terror is cognitive. Like, if you were trapped in a room with Doomsday, you know what to expect, quick violent death. With Luthor, you have no idea. His motives, his mechanisms, all of this are essentially impenetrable. It is the unknown essentially. He might not have omnipotent levels of violence, but there is no scenario in which he isn't a threat.

Doomsday works when you want to fill 17 pages with splash art of Superman getting punched in the face. Luthor works when you want a cerebral enemy and a plot driven read. If your story is going to be about guns and bombs and killing and explosions, perfect, go with the senator who is impulsive and kills on a whim "just-in-case". That villain will work, people will understand his power instantly and know why they are afraid. If you want to get the villain under people's skin though, if you want people to question him, to question their own interpretation of the story, his actions can't be so blunt. I remember you talking earlier about wanting to make people question if what the senator was doing was right (ie: killing the agent might be pragmatic to prevent something worse), the only way you can do that is if your senator isn't just ham-fistedly killing anyone he perceives as being even a potential threat. jesus... this turned into another TLDR way too fast... sorry sad

anyways, about why the one agent might sell the info, make him get depressed after the assassination or for some other reason, turn to gambling and think this is a way to pay off his debts. Or drug addiction, etc. Hell, make him question the American government and want to sell the information to a foreign government.

Lestov16
Originally posted by inimalist
man, Thoren actually hit the big points I was thinking of. Mainly, as a sympathetic character, the agent who loses his family hardly works. He not only was involved in, but was entirely complicit to, the killing of the foreign leader and other members of his unit. That you want to make him a secondary character is probably a good choice, but it is someone who the reader wont, or at least shouldn't, be able to personally identify with. Off the top of my head, this almost sounds like it would be better if you made these individuals mercenaries for a company like Blackwater rather than CIA operatives, as I have a lot of trouble believing that a soldier would be totally cool with members of his former unit being killed, and would only be motivated once his own family was harmed. However, a soldier of fortune is, by definition almost, much more personally and egocentrically driven.

Does the CIA freelance?


Originally posted by inimalist
I think there is also a big issue with the "clean up". In order to keep a lid on his activities, the senator decides that it is best if he kills not only the person who was going to leak the information, but individuals who have been loyal to him for years? Not only would this be the option that attracts the most attention (ie: not a cover up at all), it is also the one most likely to motivate retaliation or get a different member of the team to want to leak. It can work if you fit it into his character, like, make the senator impulsive and short sighted, but logically, it is a terrible idea. These other team members have been loyal, its not hard to think they would still be loyal and might see the leaking individual as a traitor. Its like using a sledge hammer to drive a small nail into soft wood. Sure, the senator looks evil, impulsive, and it shows he has the power to cause great violence, etc. But it also makes him look very weak and not very tactical, like he only has one tool in his arsenal, and if violence doesn't work, WTF is he going to do? It can work, but only if that is the character you want him to be.

anyways, about why the one agent might sell the info, make him get depressed after the assassination or for some other reason, turn to gambling and think this is a way to pay off his debts. Or drug addiction, etc. Hell, make him question the American government and want to sell the information to a foreign government.



This is why I added the "rival politician" angle in Would a politician use something like this for leverage? If so, The senator could be running for president or vice president in a fierce political campaign, which would give him incentive and urgency to cover his tracks thoroughly.

Lestov16
What if he was assigned to rescue senator (then a major
board member ) from an oil platform taken hostage by terrorists who opposed the oil consortium. Years later, a team member attempts to sell this info to a political rival in a fierce campaign for Vice Presidency. the Senator uses his CIA contacts to kill the original member, and to be safe, kill the other 3 members. The (anti-hero) protagonist just happened to be the only survivor. Note I do not want the audience to feel sympathy. This is the story of a how a man takes a final leap into the abyss, past a certain moral boundary that make shim unforgivable. He role to the (main) story is similar to Riddick's role in Pitch Black. Evil vs. Evil. Or even better, he is something of a Byronic Hero. He knows he is irredeemable and solves this be distancing himself from humanity, knowing he is damned.

Omega Vision
Jeff Bridges for the lead role.

Lord Shadow Z
Originally posted by Lestov16
Years ago, a corrupt senator and his oil cabal had a cia team assassinate a prime minister who was going to nationalize his oil fields. now, years later, one of the team members threatens to sell info about the op to a rival politician. the corrupt senator and his cia henchmen kill him and go to kill every other team member to be safe. one retired team member's family is killed in an attempt on his life, and he goes for revenge


POINT OUT AS MANY PLOT HOLES AS YOU CAN FIND

Not sure if it's a plot hole (depending on how you see it) but if the protagonist did do this secret operation for the CIA and knew why then he might not be held in a sympathetic light by the reader afterwards.

Plus the repetition of sending a CIA hit team to kill the original CIA team might not sound too plausible because then the corrupt senator is just making the situation worse and leaving a bigger trail for his political enemies to follow. You also have to allow for the possibility that the protagonist might be suspicious with all his former team-mates (is he friends with any?) being bumped off in succession.

I mean these are things you could flesh out as you go of course.

Edit - I see my points have already been made, jumped the gun a bit.

Lord Shadow Z
Originally posted by Lestov16
What if he was assigned to rescue senator (then a major
board member ) from an oil platform taken hostage by terrorists who opposed the oil consortium. Years later, a team member attempts to sell this info to a political rival in a fierce campaign for Vice Presidency. the Senator uses his CIA contacts to kill the original member, and to be safe, kill the other 3 members. The (anti-hero) protagonist just happened to be the only survivor. Note I do not want the audience to feel sympathy. This is the story of a how a man takes a final leap into the abyss, past a certain moral boundary that make shim unforgivable. He role to the (main) story is similar to Riddick's role in Pitch Black. Evil vs. Evil. Or even better, he is something of a Byronic Hero. He knows he is irredeemable and solves this be distancing himself from humanity, knowing he is damned.

What information would this senator want repressing anyway? I can't see how being rescued from a terrorist incident would lead him to kill a team member who saved him from being killed.

You could of course work into that scenario that when the senator was a board member of the oil company, he was actually behind the terrorist incident for some sort of financial gain against his own company. Maybe certain other board members were killed during this incident which paved the way for himself. That could work. Then the team member discovers this somehow , threatens to go public, resorts to blackmail and is killed. The senator, suspicious and afraid decides to wipe the slate clean and take them all out.

Just a little note, it might be better to have the protagonist ex-special forces because it might be a lot more plausible for special forces and not the CIA to defuse a hostage situation like that. I hope I've helped with my comments, it is your story after all

Lestov16
what if he retired from special forces, but was a specialist in infiltration, and the cia use him to help plan out an attack on the official residence of the prime minister, who wants to nationalize oil fields, even though his death would allow a coup by a brutal dictator (even though protagonist is told he is aiding Islamist terrorists)

Lestov16
Let's say a Senator is running for vice President. His oil company, which he was on the board, is funding his campaign, and as a favor to them and himself, he orders the CIA to kill the prime minister of a country who wants to nationalize their oil, replacing him with a dictator. They tell the assets that the prime minister is colluding with jihadist terrorists.
Now, 3 years later, the VP's re-election campaign is coming up, and one of the operatives of the operation, horrified by the genocide of political dissents following the assassination, digs and finds out that the intel about the PM was false. he goes to give the info the a reporter, but is killed. the election is fierce, and the VP and oil company can't afford any risks, so they order the hit of the other 2 operatives on that operation

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