Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Amazo- Classic JLA/JSA breaker

VS

Cyborg Superman- Current

Machine or ghost in the machine?

Amazo

Can Hank hack Amazo? If so he wins, if not he loses.

Originally posted by byrdgang21
Can Hank hack Amazo? If so he wins, if not he loses.

More likely Amazo gains defences against technopathy as he copies Hank's powers....

Hank wins by being vastly superior

Amazo shit-stomps.

Not only can he duplicate Hank's power, but can you imagine trying to fight someone as strong as Superman, as fast as Flash, as versatile as Firestorm, and as small as the Atom? I'd pay to see it.

Amazo.

Originally posted by Galan007
Amazo shit-stomps.

Not only can he duplicate Hank's power, but can you imagine trying to fight someone as strong as Superman, as fast as Flash, as versatile as Firestorm, and as small as the Atom? I'd pay to see it.

That's the bad thing about comics, they never truly shows how powerful a recurring character can be outside of an event.

And Amazo is one of the best examples.

Hank would take him over immediately, and tell him that he is his new master. Henshaw wouldn't even have to see him to begin the takeover, so even if Amazo grows defenses, it will be too late to employ them.

Originally posted by Stoic
Hank would take him over immediately, and tell him that he is his new master. Henshaw wouldn't even have to see him to begin the takeover, so even if Amazo grows defenses, it will be too late to employ them.

Unless he has Flash-level reflexes? Its usually hard to argue with Amazo in a forum fight, because he's so stacked....

What's faster, the speed of a bit, or the Flashes reflexes? All Henshaw would need to do is send one packet to Amazo, and it's game over.

Originally posted by Stoic
What's faster, the speed of a bit, or the Flashes reflexes? Flash. By far.

Originally posted by Stoic
What's faster, the speed of a bit, or the Flashes reflexes? All Henshaw would need to do is send one packet to Amazo, and it's game over.

Well, technically, they are the same, as its just the movement of electrons.

HOWEVER, Hank still has Kryptonian level reflexes - fast, yes, but we've seen that the Flash is faster.

Think of it this way. Your PC sends bits of data at the speed of light. However, your hard drive, as it were, would slow it down massively. And so it is with Hank.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well, technically, they are the same, as its just the movement of electrons.

HOWEVER, Hank still has Kryptonian level reflexes - fast, yes, but we've seen that the Flash is faster.

Think of it this way. Your PC sends bits of data at the speed of light. However, your hard drive, as it were, would slow it down massively. And so it is with Hank.


Ok so Henshaw takes a one second beating while he takes over Amazo. Saying that Amazo would develop a countermeasure for the takeover is simply something that has never happened in comics, and is his Achilles heel so to speak. We know that Henshaw can take him over, but we don't know if Amazo can resist.

What's the more solid argument?

Originally posted by Stoic
Ok so Henshaw takes a one second beating while he takes over Amazo. Saying that Amazo would develop a countermeasure for the takeover is simply something that has never happened in comics, and is his Achilles heel so to speak. We know that Henshaw can take him over, but we don't know if Amazo can resist.

What's the more solid argument?

On no, I'm not saying Amazo punches him in that one second. I'm saying Amazo copies Hank's technopathy in that one second.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, can Hank resist a Hank who's hacking into his own processes at Flash speed? Whilst wailing on him with physical, magical and telepathic attacks?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
On no, I'm not saying Amazo punches him in that one second. I'm saying Amazo copies Hank's technopathy in that one second.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, can Hank resist a Hank who's hacking into his own processes at Flash speed? Whilst wailing on him with physical, magical and telepathic attacks?


No no no no no noes! That's not how this works out at all. Hank would begin hacking Amazo, as Amazo's systems are copying Hank's ability to hack. It would already be too late for Amazo by the time it received this new ability, and it would have already been compromised. Amazo is obviously more powerful than Hank, but in a battle the extra power just wouldn't matter.

Originally posted by Stoic
No no no no no noes! That's not how this works out at all. Hank would begin hacking Amazo, as Amazo's systems are copying Hank's ability to hack. It would already be too late for Amazo by the time it received this new ability, and it would have already been compromised. Amazo is obviously more powerful than Hank, but in a battle the extra power just wouldn't matter.

But Amazo would be copying it at Flash-level speed, so he'd have already copied it before Hank has reacted, surely?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But Amazo would be copying it at Flash-level speed, so he'd have already copied it before Hank has reacted, surely?


I thought we already determined that the speed of a bit is as fast as the Flash. If you count hops, Amazo makes two hops, and Hank only makes one. Who arrives at the destination faster?

Originally posted by Stoic
I thought we already determined that the speed of a bit is as fast as the Flash. If you count hops, Amazo makes two hops, and Hank only makes one. Who arrives at the destination faster?

Yes, but the 'hard drive', as it were, of Hank is slower than Amazo's. Its like comparing two computers, both with DVD drives. They can both read a PC game disc, at the same speed - but one has a more powerful graphics card, and a faster hard drive, and a faster processor - and so the game would run faster on that PC.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yes, but the 'hard drive', as it were, of Hank is slower than Amazo's. Its like comparing two computers, both with DVD drives. They can both read a PC game disc, at the same speed - but one has a more powerful graphics card, and a faster hard drive, and a faster processor - and so the game would run faster on that PC.

So then it would be a case of who's hardware is superior then? Kryptonian hardware vs Ivo's hardware? I'd settle for a stalemate where they both sit there blue screening. Hank however makes less hop counts.

Originally posted by Stoic
So then it would be a case of who's hardware is superior then? Kryptonian hardware vs Ivo's hardware? I'd settle for a stalemate where they both sit there blue screening. Hank however makes less hop counts.

Meh, more like Ivo's hardware with a Speed Force boost lol.

Hank has never shown perception/reaction speed remotely comparable to Flash. That said, Amazo's Flash-esque speed>>Henshaw.

Hank wins, amazo is just a paper tiger. You can't extrapolate flash's speed feats on amazo.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Hank wins, amazo is just a paper tiger. You can't extrapolate flash's speed feats on amazo. 7

Why not?

Because having a power doesn't mean you are going to use it or anything close to it. Eg: wally stole amazo's speed and amazo while having all of his powers couldn't stop it.

When was this?

Amazo can and has used Flash's speed on several occasions. Trying to say that he would fight like an idiot here when the thread starter made it a point to say that he's at his JLA/JSA-wrecking levels, is laughable.

Amazo wins handily.

^JLA 22 or 23 IIRC.

Originally posted by Galan007
Amazo can and has used Flash's speed on several occasions. Trying to say that he would fight like an idiot here when the thread starter made it a point to say that he's at his JLA/JSA-wrecking levels, is laughable.

Amazo wins handily.
When in his JLA/JSA wrecking he used his speed, he only used it once in his last appearance IIRC? Kryptonians aren't too far behind flashes in speed department. The notion that a flash is untouchable by a kryptonian when it's never been the case in comics is just extrapolation of their high end feats which amazo lacks. You can't give amazo flash's high end feats just like you can't give him superman's high end strength feats.

Originally posted by abhilegend
When in his JLA/JSA wrecking he used his speed, he only used it once in his last appearance IIRC? Kryptonians aren't too far behind flashes in speed department. The notion that a flash is untouchable by a kryptonian when it's never been the case in comics is just extrapolation of their high end feats which amazo lacks. You can't give amazo flash's high end feats just like you can't give him superman's high end strength feats.

Not QUITE true, Barry left Kal in his wake in Rebirth #3. And I get your point about just because he has the powers doesn't mean he has the skills.

^Barry was black flash at the time. Later superman caught barry in superman 709 when he was out of control although barry claimed that he let him do it. Even professor zoom who wrecked entire flash family single handedly in Flash:rebirth was unable to blitz superman in Time masters and commented that Kal's reflexes were nearly equal to him. Even great Hunter zoloman has been stalemated in a foot race by bizarro. But all of that are PIS according to flash's fans.

I'm telling you guys, it's not going to come down to all of this stuff. It's going to be about the hop counts. Let's count them okay.


Amazo's hop count.

1. Amazo begins copying Hanks powers

2. Amazo begins forming a firewall against Hanks attack.

3. Amazo begins trying to hack Hank.

Hank's hop count.

1. Hank sends a packet to take over Amazo.

In my opinion Amazo fails to get to 2, as he would already be compromised before his necessary defenses would be in place.

Originally posted by Stoic
I'm telling you guys, it's not going to come down to all of this stuff. It's going to be about the hop counts. Let's count them okay.


Amazo's hop count.

1. Amazo begins copying Hanks powers

2. Amazo begins forming a firewall against Hanks attack.

3. Amazo begins trying to hack Hank.

Hank's hop count.

1. Hank sends a packet to take over Amazo.

In my opinion Amazo fails to get to 2, as he would already be compromised before his necessary defenses would be in place.

Of course, that depends on Amazo's speed, no? And if he has the processing power of the Flash backing him up....

Has amazo in the past developed instant defenses against the powers he copied? I mean if that was true speed steal should not have worked on amazo.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Of course, that depends on Amazo's speed, no? And if he has the processing power of the Flash backing him up....


It would likely not matter. You realize that HDD's have several different rpm models, and spin at incredible speeds. Sending one packet the size of a bit would take no time at all. Let's just say for kicks that Amazo and Hank had Super HDD's. Flashes speed would not make a lick of difference.

Amazo would likely be crunching computations at the same speed as Hank, but the problem happens in the number of processes that each would make. Hank has less to compute than Amazo, which makes me automatically believe that Amazo would be Hank's new minion.

I could literally see Hank tell Amazo to rip off its own head, and give it to him.

Originally posted by abhilegend
When in his JLA/JSA wrecking he used his speed, he only used it once in his last appearance IIRC? Kryptonians aren't too far behind flashes in speed department. The notion that a flash is untouchable by a kryptonian when it's never been the case in comics is just extrapolation of their high end feats which amazo lacks. You can't give amazo flash's high end feats just like you can't give him superman's high end strength feats. Post some speed/reaction feats Henshaw has that put him remotely close to Flash-level. I can post scans of Amazo picking apart the entire JLA (inc. Supes and Wally) by utilizing all/most of the power and versatility at his disposal.

Hank gets destroyed.

Originally posted by Lord Feron
Has amazo in the past developed instant defenses against the powers he copied? I mean if that was true speed steal should not have worked on amazo. The speed stealing argument is nothing but a red herring- as it is utterly irrelevant to THIS match.

Why? Hank cannot steal speed. none

Originally posted by Galan007
Post some speed/reaction feats Henshaw has that put him remotely close to Flash-level. I can post scans of Amazo picking apart the entire JLA (inc. Supes and Wally) by utilizing all/most of the power and versatility at his disposal.

Hank gets destroyed.

How can you be so adamant about this statement? Have you weighed out the possibility that Amazo may not get the chance to do any of this?

The speed stealing argument is nothing but a red herring- as it is utterly irrelevant to THIS match.


Why? Hank cannot steal speed. none


How does he speed steal an algorithmic impulse?

Couldn't Hank just co-opt Amazo's body? As powerful as Amazo is, he is still machinery and carbon based matter. Hank could likely just body snatch him and be done with it.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
Couldn't Hank just co-opt Amazo's body? As powerful as Amazo is, he is still machinery and carbon based matter. Hank could likely just body snatch him and be done with it.


Exactly, and when you account for the fact that Amazo goes into snap on mode adding power after power to it's base function, this gives Hank the moment in time to compromise the node (Amazo). Like I said before, Hank only needs to send one packet, and Amazo would be under his control.

Amazo on the other hand has to make all of these computations, and the more that this discussion goes on, the more likely my theory is the correct one.

http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/3930/returnofsuperman079xm0.th.jpg

http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/6205/returnofsuperman078zv8.th.jpg


Considering Hank did that with a glance and plotted the exact course for where to toss Doomsday, that's a pretty impressive computation feat as is the speed in which he did it.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/3930/returnofsuperman079xm0.th.jpg

http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/6205/returnofsuperman078zv8.th.jpg


Considering Hank did that with a glance and plotted the exact course for where to toss Doomsday, that's a pretty impressive computation feat as is the speed in which he did it.

Originally posted by Stoic
How does he speed steal an algorithmic impulse? With Flash's perception speed? No.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/3930/returnofsuperman079xm0.th.jpg

http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/6205/returnofsuperman078zv8.th.jpg


Considering Hank did that with a glance and plotted the exact course for where to toss Doomsday, that's a pretty impressive computation feat as is the speed in which he did it. Good feat. Not Flash-level though.

Originally posted by Galan007
With Flash's perception speed? No.

Good feat. Not Flash-level though.


I truly doubt that Amazo would win this, when Hank would only need to send one bit of information to compromise Amazo's entire game.

Amazo has too many computations to complete just to access one snap on power. by the time it imprints, that is going to it's first move. hanks first move is total corruption of its higher functions. Come on man you know what I'm saying.

^ You need to brush up on Flash, tbh.

It'd also be nice to see a scan of Hank doing what you're saying he'd be doing.

D.O.R.A: Discover, Offer, Request, Acknowledge

This is all that Hank would do if he faced Amazo, and Amazo would be part of the process to boot.

Didn't Jake provide a solid scan? I was just breaking it down it technical jargin, as to what he does to artificial lifeforms.

The scans he provided are good. They aren't Flash-level though.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
Couldn't Hank just co-opt Amazo's body? As powerful as Amazo is, he is still machinery and carbon based matter. Hank could likely just body snatch him and be done with it.

Because Amazo can do the same?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But Amazo would be copying it at Flash-level speed,

Has he ever copied at super speed?

Any time I've read him, a character usually gets enough time to make a move before their power gets copied.

The time the JLA shut him down by disbanding, the copying seemed more of a gradual thing.

It's even questionable if Hanks "ghost" is detectable by Amazo's scans.. He could end up simply seeing Kryptonian DNA and technology, and not the animating being inside of it.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Because Amazo can do the same?

Without Hanks experience, assuming he could even copy it?

And lets say he did copy the power and somehow move in on Hanks body. Than what? Hank could just build himself a new body, but Amazo would basically be a clone of Hank.

Really, Hanks technopathy isn't a power in the strictest sense of the word, it's how he survives. He's basically an energy being that fashions tech to interact with the physical world. Amazo even copy this is questionable, and him being able to use it in a useful way is more questionable, as it's essentially body hopping.. You'd have two wraiths fighting over control of a single host, basically.

Amazo copied the Worlogog in an instant, and was able to use it just as well as Hourman. Henshaw's abilities wouldn't be a problem.

Originally posted by Galan007
Amazo copied the Worlogog in an instant, and was able to use it just as well as Hourman. Henshaw's abilities wouldn't be a problem.



Haven't read that series.

In that case, I conceed he'd copy Hank's ability, but not that it would do him much good.

Because Hank isn't the machine he inhabits, and copying Hanks technopathy doesn't make Amazo less of a machine.

So not sure what copying Hanks technopathy does for Amazo, as Hank isn't a machine himself. If Hank wants to, he can simply let Amazo hack his body, enter Amazo's body, and the two can fight over rights to it or something.

Meh, recently Hank was rendered all but powerless after copied his powers.

But quite frankly, Hank alone is just is not a match for a being who is capable of trouncing the JLA with little effort. I don't even think Amazo would have to exert himself that much to pull out the win, tbh. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
The scans he provided are good. They aren't Flash-level though.


Why does it need to be Flash level? You keep bringing this to the table, and have yet to build any momentum on how this no sells Hanks ability to take control of Amazo.

You refused to acknowledge my argument of an algorithmic impulse's speed and may be under the impression that it's slower than the Flash, when in actuality it moves at the same speed.

You refuse to acknowledge the basic rules of combat. You know the one that has one guy make a move while the other one makes a move as well?

The plain fact is that Hank would only need to send a bit of information (a Trojan, worm, or virus D.O.R.A style), which would infiltrate Amazo's higher functions and leave it open for takeover. While Amazo, has to imprint, snap on, form a defensive firewall, and all sorts of other things in order to overpower Hank.

I can acknowledge that if Hank were to sit there, and allow Amazo to make all of these moves, that it would likely be his undoing, but how does that make this a fight between sentient beings, and not one between a sentient, and a rag doll or punching bag?

Fighting to the best of their abilities, Hank does not have to allow Amazo who has only one protocol to begin the fight with, the opportunity to snap on extraneous powers.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Because Amazo can do the same?

Okay, so Amazo while entering this fight has the ability to control other AI? Is this what you're saying? Or are you saying that he has to first imprint this ability from Hank? If it is the latter, Hank does not give him the time to do this.

Originally posted by Stoic
Why does it need to be Flash level? You keep bringing this to the table, and have yet to build any momentum on how this no sells Hanks ability to take control of Amazo.

You refused to acknowledge my argument of an algorithmic impulse's speed and may be under the impression that it's slower than the Flash, when in actuality it moves at the same speed.

You refuse to acknowledge the basic rules of combat. You know the one that has one guy make a move while the other one makes a move as well?

The plain fact is that Hank would only need to send a bit of information (a Trojan, worm, or virus D.O.R.A style), which would infiltrate Amazo's higher functions and leave it open for takeover. While Amazo, has to imprint, snap on, form a defensive firewall, and all sorts of other things in order to overpower Hank.

I can acknowledge that if Hank were to sit there, and allow Amazo to make all of these moves, that it would likely be his undoing, but how does that make this a fight between sentient beings, and not one between a sentient, and a rag doll or punching bag?

Fighting to the best of their abilities, Hank does not have to allow Amazo who has only one protocol to begin the fight with, the opportunity to snap on extraneous powers.



Okay, so Amazo while entering this fight has the ability to control other AI? Is this what you're saying? Or are you saying that he has to first imprint this ability from Hank? If it is the latter, Hank does not give him the time to do this.

Yep, he can. And Hank won't speed Blitz, not when Amazo has super speed himself.

I just now read when Amazo stole half of Hourmans power.

That's actually a good argument for why simply copying Cyborgs technopathy doesn't mean he'll win in that arena, as Tyler used his time powers more intelligently than Amazo to erase him from the future (And while it's true Amazo only had half the Warlogogs full power, that's still half of infinite time altering power, yet Amazo used it like a hammer compared to Hourman..)

IIRC, Tmazo used it better.

Nah, all he did was summon alt timeline versions of himself and went for straight attacks, while Tyler built a false time version of himself to throw Tmazo off, than restructured future time so that Tmazo could never exist in it.

Tmazo was basically thinking in three dimensions, instead of in four.

I'd still give Amazo the nod. Just more formidable in the long run.

Ok, Stoic, the thing is, you keep saying that Amazo would be slower because he has to make two hops to Hank's one.

Thought experiment time!

I have a 100m race against Usain Bolt. I do the race by taking exaggerated giant hopping steps. Bolt sprints it

Just because I took fewer steps to reach my destination does not mean I reach my goal faster, because you have ignored the rate at which our legs moved. And so it is here.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Ok, Stoic, the thing is, you keep saying that Amazo would be slower because he has to make two hops to Hank's one.

Thought experiment time!

I have a 100m race against Usain Bolt. I do the race by taking exaggerated giant hopping steps. Bolt sprints it

Just because I took fewer steps to reach my destination does not mean I reach my goal faster, because you have ignored the rate at which our legs moved. And so it is here.


That is a faulty comparison, Usain Bolt is faster than you are from the onset (I'm guessing), in this fight you would have to prove that the Flash's brain processes data faster than a super computers brain does. This is where we are stuck in speculation.

I understand Galan's side of things, and fully agree with him, that if Hank approached this battle like a doofus, he'd have his mech ass handed to him, but not all fights have to be physical one. I'm just saying that Hank has the option to make this battle logical. When a computer sends bit sized computations, it does it far faster than you or I can possibly ever perceive. Can the flash crunch numbers faster than a super comic book computer?

Galan says that he wants to see a scan of Hank doing these things, well he never will until the writers put it in a book, I'm a certified technician, and I'm just saying how these things work out. There's a web site called "how stuff works", you can visit it to see just how fast a bit slides through gigabit Ethernet, it will blow you away. Now add comic book exaggeration to the mix, and it dwarfs even what I just mentioned.

It's actually risen from 2 hops to 3 or 4 hops, while hank still only has 1. This comes down to personal opinion, or preference. I just can't logically see Hank losing this if he's approaching this battle intelligently.

Originally posted by Stoic
in this fight you would have to prove that the Flash's brain processes data faster than a super computers brain does. This is where we are stuck in speculation.

In DC 1 million, Flash was running simulations through a future tech strategy engine so quickly, he was burning it out.

Why could Amazo transmute people into robot?? And become human himself? O_o

The Hourman series hit Morrison territory with that one. Pretty awesome, though. He'd be close to unstoppable if that was a regular power.

This is what cdtm is referring to:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/Demas/dccomics1M4pg06.jpg

So not only a super computer, but a supercomputer from the 853rd century.....

Also, just for lulz:
http://s644.photobucket.com/albums/uu166/galanx07_pics/?action=view&current=flash_instarace7.jpg

Originally posted by Galan007
Amazo copied the Worlogog in an instant, and was able to use it just as well as Hourman. Henshaw's abilities wouldn't be a problem.
Originally posted by Cogito
Hank wins by being vastly superior
sneer

For the record, when I said take over Amazo's body, I didn't mean via technopathy and hacking, I meant via Hank's ability to transfer his consciousness into and inhabit materials and form new bodies out of it (like he did the Source Wall). Hank could literally jack Amazo's body as his first move. Not overwrite his programming, but take his 'form' as his own.

Amazo... near instantaneous copy abilities combined with his inherent team wrecker abilities... Henshaw would never have the chance to direct a technopath attempt before Amazo copies his ability and combined with Flash speed he'll turn around and hack hank

Originally posted by Galan007
Post some speed/reaction feats Henshaw has that put him remotely close to Flash-level. I can post scans of Amazo picking apart the entire JLA (inc. Supes and Wally) by utilizing all/most of the power and versatility at his disposal.

Hank gets destroyed.

The speed stealing argument is nothing but a red herring- as it is utterly irrelevant to THIS match.

Why? Hank cannot steal speed. none

People say he can copy powers and make instant defenses. I pointed out a instance in comics where it was proved the contrary. Irrelevant? I guess if you want to talk about something else...

I mean i would like to see someone point out a time where amazo stole powers and instantly was able to defend or in this case people are saying he will be impervious to it.

But I say Technopathy is Hanks best and only shot at winning.

Originally posted by Lord Feron
People say he can copy powers and make instant defenses. I pointed out a instance in comics where it was proved the contrary. Irrelevant? I guess if you want to talk about something else...

I mean i would like to see someone point out a time where amazo stole powers and instantly was able to defend or in this case people are saying he will be impervious to it.

But I say Technopathy is Hanks best and only shot at winning.

I agree with this - I think it WAS relevant to the discussion. Amazo can copy powersets, but not skillsets - for example, he'll copy Batman's strength etc, but won't know his fighting skills.

I guess the debate is, is hacking/firewalls a skill thing, or a power thing. I'd argue its a power thing, and so whilst he may not be as skilled at technopathy and hacking as Hank, the fact that he has brute computing power behind him means that Amazo comes out top.

Again, using Feron's example, whilst Amazo could probably keep up with the Flash in a footrace, he won't be able to think up strategies and tactics faster than Wally using his speed, as Wally would be more at home with his own powers. However, he WILL be able to think up tactics and strategies faster than Hank, as the Flash would be faster than Hank, imho.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I agree with this - I think it WAS relevant to the discussion. Amazo can copy powersets, but not skillsets - for example, he'll copy Batman's strength etc, but won't know his fighting skills.

I guess the debate is, is hacking/firewalls a skill thing, or a power thing. I'd argue its a power thing, and so whilst he may not be as skilled at technopathy and hacking as Hank, the fact that he has brute computing power behind him means that Amazo comes out top.

Again, using Feron's example, whilst Amazo could probably keep up with the Flash in a footrace, he won't be able to think up strategies and tactics faster than Wally using his speed, as Wally would be more at home with his own powers. However, he WILL be able to think up tactics and strategies faster than Hank, as the Flash would be faster than Hank, imho. Kid amazo would crush hank though.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
For the record, when I said take over Amazo's body, I didn't mean via technopathy and hacking, I meant via Hank's ability to transfer his consciousness into and inhabit materials and form new bodies out of it (like he did the Source Wall). Hank could literally jack Amazo's body as his first move. Not overwrite his programming, but take his 'form' as his own.

Hank did animate a portion of the Source Wall.

Amazo's body shouldn't be much of a problem to animate.

And unlike Broodika, he doesn't have a soul to struggle over possession of the body.. He's just a machine, and Hank uses those like people use clothes.

Originally posted by Galan007
The scans he provided are good. They aren't Flash-level though. For what it's worth, it should be pointed out that Hank isn't fighting the Flash. He's fighting Amazo, who has never been shown to use Flash's speed with the competency of the Flash.

I mean, don't get me wrong, Amazo's torn apart the JLA before, but he's never demonstrated that his use of the Flash's speed is as good as Wally/Barry/Bart/whoever, and so their names (Amazo and the Flash that is) shouldn't be used interchangeably.

Furthermore, Amazo seems to have to access powers to use them. I think it's logical to assume that each combatant would start from base power, so, even with the Flash's speed as a potential power at his disposal, Amazo wouldn't start the match with the copied speedforce-level reflexes.

If it's a quickdraw for Hank to take over Amazo's machinery, Hank doesn't need to outrace the Flash computationally, he needs (or doesn't, depending on how you view it) to outrace Amazo computationally.

And, as mentioned, even if Amazo delivers the first blow, or even if Amazo copies Henshaw, there's an argument to be made that Henshaw (through smarts, experience, and expertise at taking over foreign machinery) would win a battle of machines to see who takes over who.

Originally posted by Existere
For what it's worth, it should be pointed out that Hank isn't fighting the Flash. He's fighting Amazo, who has never been shown to use Flash's speed with the competency of the Flash.

I mean, don't get me wrong, Amazo's torn apart the JLA before, but he's never demonstrated that his use of the Flash's speed is as good as Wally/Barry/Bart/whoever, and so their names (Amazo and the Flash that is) shouldn't be used interchangeably.

Furthermore, Amazo seems to have to access powers to use them. I think it's logical to assume that each combatant would start from base power, so, even with the Flash's speed as a potential power at his disposal, Amazo wouldn't start the match with the copied speedforce-level reflexes.

If it's a quickdraw for Hank to take over Amazo's machinery, Hank doesn't need to outrace the Flash computationally, he needs (or doesn't, depending on how you view it) to outrace Amazo computationally.

And, as mentioned, even if Amazo delivers the first blow, or even if Amazo copies Henshaw, there's an argument to be made that Henshaw (through smarts, experience, and expertise at taking over foreign machinery) would win a battle of machines to see who takes over who.

i agree. i don't see this thing being a foregone conclusion at all. i think it is entirely reasonable to think hank could take possession of amazo. his copying hank's powers wouldn't matter much, imo. he'd STILL be a machine and STILL be susceptible to being taken over. i think amazo would literally have to ko hank before hank even got off a thought.

Originally posted by Existere
For what it's worth, it should be pointed out that Hank isn't fighting the Flash. He's fighting Amazo, who has never been shown to use Flash's speed with the competency of the Flash.

I mean, don't get me wrong, Amazo's torn apart the JLA before, but he's never demonstrated that his use of the Flash's speed is as good as Wally/Barry/Bart/whoever, and so their names (Amazo and the Flash that is) shouldn't be used interchangeably.

Furthermore, Amazo seems to have to access powers to use them. I think it's logical to assume that each combatant would start from base power, so, even with the Flash's speed as a potential power at his disposal, Amazo wouldn't start the match with the copied speedforce-level reflexes.

If it's a quickdraw for Hank to take over Amazo's machinery, Hank doesn't need to outrace the Flash computationally, he needs (or doesn't, depending on how you view it) to outrace Amazo computationally.

And, as mentioned, even if Amazo delivers the first blow, or even if Amazo copies Henshaw, there's an argument to be made that Henshaw (through smarts, experience, and expertise at taking over foreign machinery) would win a battle of machines to see who takes over who.

Originally posted by Existere
For what it's worth, it should be pointed out that Hank isn't fighting the Flash. He's fighting Amazo, who has never been shown to use Flash's speed with the competency of the Flash.

I mean, don't get me wrong, Amazo's torn apart the JLA before, but he's never demonstrated that his use of the Flash's speed is as good as Wally/Barry/Bart/whoever, and so their names (Amazo and the Flash that is) shouldn't be used interchangeably.

Furthermore, Amazo seems to have to access powers to use them. I think it's logical to assume that each combatant would start from base power, so, even with the Flash's speed as a potential power at his disposal, Amazo wouldn't start the match with the copied speedforce-level reflexes.

If it's a quickdraw for Hank to take over Amazo's machinery, Hank doesn't need to outrace the Flash computationally, he needs (or doesn't, depending on how you view it) to outrace Amazo computationally.

And, as mentioned, even if Amazo delivers the first blow, or even if Amazo copies Henshaw, there's an argument to be made that Henshaw (through smarts, experience, and expertise at taking over foreign machinery) would win a battle of machines to see who takes over who.

Exactly how I see it.

In the end, Amazo is a machine, while Hank is an entity that possesses machines.

Henshaw's ability to move into another host is being vastly overrated. Amazo would copy his powers the instant this battle starts- it's what he's does. Once that happens, Hank's ability to utilize technopathy or his overrated 'body-swap' (which I don't believe he's ever done to an opponent mid-battle, anyway) becomes virtually non-existent. Proof of this can be found simply by looking at Hank's most recent battle with Doomsday. In the aforementioned fight, Hank was rendered completely ineffectual where technopathy is concerned as soon as DD copied his powerset... And he didn't even try to "body-swap". That being said, Amazo would have all of Hank's abilities + those of the collective JLA. So if Hank was owned by a fella who only copied his powers, he certainly isn't beating a guy who possesses his powers, along with NUMEROUS others.

...Or Hank steps out of character and tries to overtake Amazo. Amazo nigh-instantly analyzes the threat, and counters it by becoming organic (he's done so before.)

Either way, Hank gets stomped. Imo.