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The New God

vs

Omega Mutant

Go!

yeah, i'm not sure..... orion is not immune to tp or its effects so theoretically nate should be able to affect him that way. i'd give orion the overall power edge for sure, but nate is not that far behind and has better overall mastery of his skillset. no sweeps either way for sure, but not sure who would take a majority. too many different ways this battle could go. i could even see the occasional stomp in either direction. shrug

Originally posted by leonidas
yeah, i'm not sure..... orion is not immune to tp or its effects...shrug

Actually, he is immune. In John Ostranders run on Martian Manhunter J'onn claimed all New Gods had telepathic immunity, and couldn't get into their heads at all.

Even in the early 90's, Mr. Miracle claimed Granny conditioned all para demons against tp, which is why he was immune to Sleeze's telepathy (Which basically adds credibility to Ostranders work, as them being immune makes sense if they normally condition against that sort of thing..)

Originally posted by cdtm
John Ostranders run on Martian Manhunter established New Gods are immune to tp.

really? when was this? and just how exactly was it 'established'?

Originally posted by leonidas
really? when was this? and just how exactly was it 'established'?

Basically, in the v2 Martian Manhunter series, when Apokolips invades Mars, the Martians discovered their tp was useless against them.

And again, even in the early days before Ostranders worked on them, tp resistance was an established part of their mythos.

Originally posted by cdtm
Basically, in the v2 Martian Manhunter series, when Apokolips invades Mars, the Martians discovered their tp was useless against them.

And again, even in the early days before Ostranders worked on them, tp resistance was an established part of their mythos.

i know it had been somewhat established, but max ko'd orion pretty easily with a tp blast. i'd love to see some scans of those manhunter books. perhaps i'll look them up. sounds interesting.

and for the purposes of this match, to may not matter as nate's tk control may well be even more dangerous to orion....

shaman should win

Originally posted by leonidas i know it had been somewhat established, but max ko'd orion pretty easily with a tp blast. i'd love to see some scans of those manhunter books. perhaps i'll look them up. sounds interesting. and for the purposes of this match, to may not matter as nate's tk control may well be even more dangerous to orion....

later it was revealed that new gods were immune to tp. they have shown resistance to it even before the maxima incident.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
later it was revealed that new gods were immune to tp. they have shown resistance to it even before the maxima incident.

which of course is my problem. they were said to be immune but obviously were not. so, not sure why i should accept unilaterally that they ARE again..... i'd like to see a scan SHOWING this immunity. not, as i said, that i see tp being the only way nate can potentially win this.

Originally posted by leonidas which of course is my problem. they were said to be immune but obviously were not. so, not sure why i should accept unilaterally that they ARE again..... i'd like to see a scan SHOWING this immunity. not, as i said, that i see tp being the only way nate can potentially win this.

it was in the orion respect thread, but orion only has one bad showing. and that was maxima who snuck up on orion. shw caught him off guard.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
later it was revealed that new gods were immune to tp. they have shown resistance to it even before the maxima incident.

Panic in the Sky was bad for New Gods in general.

Brainiac easily took out Metron in his mobius chair, yet Dubblex was able to defend from his tp probes?

And when you have the writer making a statement in the letter pages that he blatantly underwrote characters for the sake of the story, in response to a fans question on why Dr. Fate with all her power would be bothered by falling water...

Originally posted by Prep-Man
it was in the orion respect thread, but orion only has one bad showing. and that was maxima who snuck up on orion. shw caught him off guard.

off-guard does not elminate 'immunity'. i'll look through the respect thread. i've read a lot of orion and i can't recall anyone really attempting to attack with with tp off-hand and whenever i ask for scans i never get them. i'll need to check on this issue a little more closely methinks.

Originally posted by leonidas off-guard does not elminate 'immunity'. i'll look through the respect thread. i've read a lot of orion and i can't recall anyone really attempting to attack with with tp off-hand and whenever i ask for scans i never get them. i'll need to check on this issue a little more closely methinks.

like cdtm said above ostranders mm series. it wasnt even the powerful new gods. just the basic ones.

Originally posted by leonidas
off-guard does not elminate 'immunity'. i'll look through the respect thread. i've read a lot of orion and i can't recall anyone really attempting to attack with with tp off-hand and whenever i ask for scans i never get them. i'll need to check on this issue a little more closely methinks.

I'll see what I can do about scans, but keep in mind Brainiac located and took out Metron in his mobius chair, and the chair found Dubblx, the Cadimus telepath, and suddenly Dubblx becomes a super telepath that could block Brainiacs mind probes.

Not to mention, Pocket Universe Supergirl pwning Lightray, which is serious underwriting.

IMO, the New Gods were fairly underwritten.

Originally posted by cdtm
I'll see what I can do about scans, but keep in mind Brainiac located and took out Metron in his mobius chair, and the chair found Dubblx, the Cadimus telepath, and suddenly Dubblx becomes a super telepath that could block Brainiacs mind probes.

Not to mention, Pocket Universe Supergirl pwning Lightray, which is serious underwriting.

IMO, the New Gods were fairly underwritten.

i'm not contesting that. i'm saying i'm not sure where the idea they are immune to tp came from originally. just did search in the orion respect thread. serached telepathy, telepathic, mars, martian and got nothing at all, nor did i see a single scan where he resisted a direct tp assault. not saying there isn't one somewhere, just that i haven't seen it.

Originally posted by leonidas i'm not contesting that. i'm saying i'm not sure where the idea they are immune to tp came from originally. just did search in the orion respect thread. serached telepathy, telepathic, mars, martian and got nothing at all, nor did i see a single scan where he resisted a direct tp assault. not saying there isn't one somewhere, just that i haven't seen it.

like i said above it was refrence to the lowlies or the basic new gods. which is pretty impressive.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
like i said above it was refrence to the lowlies or the basic new gods. which is pretty impressive.

which is exactly what i'd like to see.....

me too. im on my phone, so maybe ill dig it up later. galan might have it around somewhere.

Nate

Nate wins.

so..... went through the last bunch of martian manhunter v2 books. pretty good reads for the most part. not awesome, but i enjoyed them. i had been unaware that it was the martians who actually turned darkseid onto the anti-life equation. interesting little fact right there.....

for all the talk about how that series showed the new gods are 'immune' to telepathic attack though.....?

or, rather, not decisively. the denizens of apokalips had thoughts that were 'opaque' to the martians. what that meant in the context of the series was that the martians could not casually read their minds, something they never really pressed because it is against their ethics. of course, that 'opaqueness' was a plot device to allow the new gods to trick the martians. ironically, later, when the new gods were forced to leave, the martians forced them by merging their thoughts and using a telepathic command to chase darkseid's army away from the planet! so the new gods were certainly NOT immune, though their thoughts could not be read passively.

all that means, imho, is that (1) a focused tp assault could very well be used against a new god (2) a POWERFUL enough attack (like the merged assault used to drive the army away) CERTAINLY can work.

low level tp's probably couldn't do anything to a new god. an uber tp (like, say.... maxima, or nate )? yeah, i'd say that the new gods are not beyond being f'd up by someone with sufficient power. thanks to prepman for convincing me to finally take an active part in solving this little issue. new god immunity has been a question on the forum for a very long time. all the proof falls inbetween issues 32-36 in martian manhunter v2. i'm just too lazy to upload scans and frankly did the checking for my own peace of mind anyway.

Those were the lowlies New Gods. Someone like Orion has high resistance through the MB.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Those were the lowlies New Gods. Someone like Orion has high resistance through the MB.

the forces were comprised of darkseid's 'elite forces'......

and, again, i'd love to see proof of mb's ability to protect orion from tp. mb gets a LOT of credit. not saying it's impossible. in his earlier career, mb was used more than it has been in the last bunch of years. but has it ever protected him--actively--from a tp assault? not that i know of.....

There was another incident I saw a while back, which shows the lowest of NG's. Probably Busiek's run. Can't remember. And MM has had a hard time reading Darkseid, so...

By Darkseid's elite, do you mean Granny Goodness, Fatal Furies, etc...? Because regular troops, with high status can be "Darkseid's elite".

Originally posted by Prep-Man
There was another incident I saw a while back, which shows the lowest of NG's. Probably Busiek's run. Can't remember. And MM has had a hard time reading Darkseid, so...

By Darkseid's elite, do you mean Granny Goodness, Fatal Furies, etc...? Because regular troops, with high status can be "Darkseid's elite".

well, i would expect darkseid to be immune, given that he has his own tp.....

the elite were comprised of a bunch of beings. however, you raised a fair point. so i went back and took a look again at the issue, and......

turns out my earlier post was premature. i read some of the issues too quickly is seems. there was one page that showed the 'commanders' of darkseid's forces stayed to try and keep the lowlier forces from fleeing! that would indicate that perhaps the higher ups DO have the resistance you mentioned!!

do, i retract my previous post and instead say that the weight of evidence from that series DOES support the resistance to tp that has been supposed!

cripes. of course, max DID ko orion. i think i'll settle for something in the middle. very high resistance, but not immunity. the martians never really pressed an attack against a commander but instead tried to have them all swept up by the wave of lowlies and driven back to the boom tube. what would have happened had they focused their tp on a commander? shrug

so, there you have it. pologies for the confusion. reading and watching football=/=focused reading!

Originally posted by leonidas
the forces were comprised of darkseid's 'elite forces'......

No.

It took the entire planet, or what was left of it, pooling their telepathic abilities to effect the PARADEMONS, who were otherwise immune to their mind abilities.

The few members of Darkseid's elite - the Furies - who were there were STILL unaffected by the mind attacks, they were just swept up in the onrush of the parademons fleeing.

Edit: Damn, and now I see that you saw that.

As for this fight, Nate Grey's total inability to subdue the far less powerful Marvel Ares thanks to his esoteric 'god powers' tells me that Nate would be absolutely outmatched by Orion.

Shaman Nate >>>> Maxima.

Maxima mind-raped Orion with a psi bolt.

Shaman Nate Grey stomps.

Originally posted by Desaad As for this fight, Nate Grey's total inability to subdue the far less powerful Marvel Ares thanks to his esoteric 'god powers' tells me that Nate would be absolutely outmatched by Orion.

good point. orion for the majority.

I'm pretty sure telepathy has worked on Orion more than once. As a matter of fact, I remember John telepathically affecting him in the JLA. One arc that comes to mind is when they were kidnapped and made slaves by a powerful race. I need to double check before I can comment on the extent.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I'm pretty sure telepathy has worked on Orion more than once. As a matter of fact, I remember John telepathically affecting him in the JLA. One arc that comes to mind is when they were kidnapped and made slaves by a powerful race. I need to double check before I can comment on the extent.

i'd thought that too but had no luck finding anything. i don't think he went against a telepath at all in his own series run. if you find the arc, definitely let me know.

Originally posted by leonidas
i'd thought that too but had no luck finding anything. i don't think he went against a telepath at all in his own series run. if you find the arc, definitely let me know.

Try JLA v3 #20. The arc starts a little earlier (Maybe #18) so go through all of it just to get all the context, it's been a while since I've read it.

Originally posted by leonidas
so..... went through the last bunch of martian manhunter v2 books. pretty good reads for the most part. not awesome, but i enjoyed them. i had been unaware that it was the martians who actually turned darkseid onto the anti-life equation. interesting little fact right there.....

for all the talk about how that series showed the new gods are 'immune' to telepathic attack though.....?

or, rather, not decisively. the denizens of apokalips had thoughts that were 'opaque' to the martians. what that meant in the context of the series was that the martians could not casually read their minds, something they never really pressed because it is against their ethics. of course, that 'opaqueness' was a plot device to allow the new gods to trick the martians. ironically, later, when the new gods were forced to leave, the martians forced them by merging their thoughts and using a telepathic command to chase darkseid's army away from the planet! so the new gods were certainly NOT immune, though their thoughts could not be read passively.

all that means, imho, is that (1) a focused tp assault could very well be used against a new god (2) a POWERFUL enough attack (like the merged assault used to drive the army away) CERTAINLY can work.

low level tp's probably couldn't do anything to a new god. an uber tp (like, say.... maxima, or nate )? yeah, i'd say that the new gods are not beyond being f'd up by someone with sufficient power. thanks to prepman for convincing me to finally take an active part in solving this little issue. new god immunity has been a question on the forum for a very long time. all the proof falls inbetween issues 32-36 in martian manhunter v2. i'm just too lazy to upload scans and frankly did the checking for my own peace of mind anyway.

Very refreshing to have someone actually read the material to get the full context as opposed to scan sharking it. The actual comics give you tone, mood and feel that scans of particular sequences can't provide.

the only time i remember mm scanning orions mind was when guy gardner was talking back to orion and mm read his mind to tell guy that he better be careful, because orion had thought of a number of ways to kill him. pretty bad ass scene if i remember it correctly. lol.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Try JLA v3 #20. The arc starts a little earlier (Maybe #18) so go through all of it just to get all the context, it's been a while since I've read it.

Does this have something to do with the JLA being captured on Rann, and Steel discovering that Orion's mother box had been trying to shield the new god from the En'Tarans, but couldn't because all its energy was expended trying to calm him down?

Originally posted by dmills
Very refreshing to have someone actually read the material to get the full context as opposed to scan sharking it. The actual comics give you tone, mood and feel that scans of particular sequences can't provide.

Except he was wrong, and admitted as much.

The New Gods, as of Ostrander's Martian Manhunter, were totally and completely immune to martian telepathy. The lowlies were largely immune as well, though a large group of them combining their abilities was enough to overcome that.

Couple this with Grey's demonstrated weakness against god-types, specifically god of war types, specifically god of war types that are obviously less powerful than Orion/Thor, and it becomes fairly clear cut, the end result here.

He has no weakness against, God Type characters. Barring telepathy it becomes a physical fight, to which Nate has much to bring to the field.

well, thanks for reiterating that i was wrong.

as for them being 'totally and completely immune' to martian tp--maybe. like i said, their thoughts were opaque and the martians never really TRIED to pierce them because that is against their ethics. the collective cry was only performed by a few, and it was directed across the entire planet, so, it's overall strength is in doubt.

in that jla arc (my thanks rage ), orion NEEDED motherbox to protect him from telepathy, so clearly he wasn't immune to it as has been said. further proof comes from maxima's easy ko of him.

could motherbox shield him from nate's tp? maybe. probably. but from his tk? not sure. could nate remove mb? steel did so easily enough, and mb's can be destroyed.

as far as the ares fight--pretty inconclusive, imo. at one point ares even ASKS nate if he is going to fight back. nate simply spent his time trying to avoid ares. he never blasted him, or used any real offense at all against him, so i don't think that fight showed anything at all, frankly--except that ares can perceive time in a way that he'd never shown before.

i guess the fight comes down to whether you think mb can protect orion or survive a direct attack from a po'd nate. personally, i don't think so, but you're welcome to your opinion.

What's nate's best physical feat?

Originally posted by abhilegend
What's nate's best physical feat?

In his sleep. TK crushed a city.
In an unconscious state. Can create a psi blast big enough to wipe out all of Asia.
Can release enough energy to destroy the Earth.

Orion uses the Genesis Box FTW

Originally posted by leonidas
well, thanks for reiterating that i was wrong.

Haha, sorry, but props for admitting it rather than just letting people go on believing it. It takes some character to do that, in all seriousness. I certainly didn't mean anything malicious by pointing it out, it just seemed like the guy had ignored your self correction.



Martian Manhunter mentions that he just can't read New God thoughts, that it's like grabbing at nothing.

In fact, their one minor telepath - Glorious Godfrey - was able to work HIS influential magic on THEM, winning them all over to his side. It's never overtly stated, but MM's internal monologue makes it pretty clear that there was something unnatural about the way hew as able to convince them all.



I'm certainly not going to say that there is 100% consistency there, but even if you take that into account -- he's still got mother box to protect him from telepathy (I'm taking your word on the JLA arc -- it's been years since I've read it, but I don't recall anything about telepathy specifically).



MB's generally cannot be destroyed unless they will it to happen, self destructing or killing themselves. Orion was able to call his back to him without issue even after it went 'dead' from his corruption.



I think it showed that despite Nate's best efforts he couldn't stall or get away from a God, that his esoteric abilities weren't effective against them. Is your argument really that Nate could have put Ares down at any time and gotten away but...what, chose not to? The clear implication of that encounter was that Ares was, to Nate, unstoppable. That he wasn't fighting back because he didn't think it would help, and that running away was his only option.



Well, only if you ignore the Martian Manhunter showing, which you seem oddly quick to do.

It comes down to this; New Gods have shown massive telepathic immunity to 'normal' telepaths. In the instances that they haven't, Mother box has been shown to help. And then you have one instance of Orion being knocked out by a sneak attack telepathic attack.

Just in terms of telepathic resistance, it seems it is more likely that Orion is to be immune to telepathy - as he has two different methods - than not. Especially when you consider that Nate was having trouble with Norman's psyche, just that of a normal man.

And then when you take into account Nate's demonstrated inability to put down a god, a much less powerful god, I again can't help but feel this is a no brainer.

Originally posted by "Id"
In his sleep. TK crushed a city.
In an unconscious state. Can create a psi blast big enough to wipe out all of Asia.
Can release enough energy to destroy the Earth.
Not good enough, nate has to deal with this along with a superman class brick with hundreds of years of experience of combat.

Orion threatens to tear apart earth by firing on moon

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/JLATitans1of3-28.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/JLATitans1of3-29.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/JLATitans1of3-30.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/JLATitans1of3-31.jpg

Originally posted by abhilegend
Not good enough, nate has to deal with this along with a superman class brick with hundreds of years of experience of combat.

Orion threatens to tear apart earth by firing on moon

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/JLATitans1of3-28.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/JLATitans1of3-29.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/JLATitans1of3-30.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/JLATitans1of3-31.jpg
This is very twilight zonish.

I was expecting something more impressive...instead I am treated by a small claim, and a lesser feat to gawk at. srsly

I am superman class brick, with moon blasting power. Yeah well Nate is a Psychic Force, and Planet Shattering blasts.

Orion once matched and contained universal energies with his Astro Force. That is above anything Nate did, i believe.

If he makes for an excellent battery, than that's great for him.

At one time, X-Man was expelling enough energy to collapse the Astral Plane.

Like Orions domino of Breaking the Moon equates to serious consequences on Earth.

Tearing the Astral Plane down, would collapse the physical reality.

Orion also built the Genesis box to unmake reality of Darkseid's taint, was one of the 5 who used their power to destroy dimenstion, and matched and contained universal energies when he was WEAKENED. I say orion has higher end feats and more of them.

He also (at one point) went toe to toe with Mantis, who tooled Pre-Crisis Dr. Fate like he was a red headed step child. You know, your homey, ID. ;0

Originally posted by "Id"
This is very twilight zonish.

I was expecting something more impressive...instead I am treated by a small claim, and a lesser feat to gawk at. srsly

I am superman class brick, with moon blasting power. Yeah well Nate is a Psychic Force, and Planet Shattering blasts.
Point me to the scan where someone causes earthquakes on richter scale by firing energy on moon? Batman, superman and steel confirmed that he would tear apart earth if he didn't stop. Superman, you know the guy who is a measuring stick for strength, well orion has never lost to him in a fist fight. Didn't nate got his tk field torn apart by professor hulk, IIRC?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Point me to the scan where someone causes earthquakes on richter scale by firing energy on moon? Batman, superman and steel confirmed that he would tear apart earth if he didn't stop.
It actually makes even less sense. You can fire at the moon, and shows that if he continues the Earth will be town apart. Yet the Moon shows no signs damage?

Even so, my point still stands. Nate easily walks with enough power, to bully Orion given that his Planet Wrecking blast is superior to Orions.

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/2769/xman03905.jpg
http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/3153/xman03906.jpg
http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/9936/xman0390708.jpg
http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/6392/xman047page09image0001.jpg

Originally posted by abhilegend
. Superman, you know the guy who is a measuring stick for strength, well orion has never lost to him in a fist fight. Didn't nate got his tk field torn apart by professor hulk, IIRC?
Pre-Shaman era.

Look your pointing out a moment when his tk was bested in his younger years. And no one is claiming Nate's TK field is indestructible. As time progressed he became more adept with his powers, until he evolved into infamous Shaman.

Take for example several issues later, when he is physically exchanging shots with Modt who is 1,000 times more powerful than Jahf before his defenses crumbled.

Just pointing that out, so you can be more careful measuring up Nate.

And really, you have to question how good is Orion physical stats will be, against a character who can go intangible at will. Pre-Depowerment, his body was nothing more than a psi-construct molded by his own power.

the mutant god wins this

Reality Warping>>>>all

Originally posted by "Id"
It actually makes even less sense. You can fire at the moon, and shows that if he continues the Earth will be town apart. Yet the Moon shows no signs damage?

Even so, my point still stands. Nate easily walks with enough power, to bully Orion given that his Planet Wrecking blast is superior to Orions.

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/2769/xman03905.jpg
http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/3153/xman03906.jpg
http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/9936/xman0390708.jpg
http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/6392/xman047page09image0001.jpg


Pre-Shaman era.

Look your pointing out a moment when his tk was bested in his younger years. And no one is claiming Nate's TK field is indestructible. As time progressed he became more adept with his powers, until he evolved into infamous Shaman.

Take for example several issues later, when he is physically exchanging shots with Modt who is 1,000 times more powerful than Jahf before his defenses crumbled.

Just pointing that out, so you can be more careful measuring up Nate.

And really, you have to question how good is Orion physical stats will be, against a character who can go intangible at will. Pre-Depowerment, his body was nothing more than a psi-construct molded by his own power.
Sorry my friend, I'm on my phone so I can't see the scans. What planet did nate destroy? Comics doesn't make sense often, that doesn't mean they are any less legit. Orion can also become intangible through Mother Box. Didn't he became shaman after switching bodies with another X-man in that alternate madylene around X-man 43-45? No need to be aggresive my friend, I already said nate wins.

Originally posted by Desaad
Haha, sorry, but props for admitting it rather than just letting people go on believing it. It takes some character to do that, in all seriousness. I certainly didn't mean anything malicious by pointing it out, it just seemed like the guy had ignored your self correction.



Martian Manhunter mentions that he just can't read New God thoughts, that it's like grabbing at nothing.

In fact, their one minor telepath - Glorious Godfrey - was able to work HIS influential magic on THEM, winning them all over to his side. It's never overtly stated, but MM's internal monologue makes it pretty clear that there was something unnatural about the way hew as able to convince them all.



I'm certainly not going to say that there is 100% consistency there, but even if you take that into account -- he's still got mother box to protect him from telepathy (I'm taking your word on the JLA arc -- it's been years since I've read it, but I don't recall anything about telepathy specifically).



MB's generally cannot be destroyed unless they will it to happen, self destructing or killing themselves. Orion was able to call his back to him without issue even after it went 'dead' from his corruption.



I think it showed that despite Nate's best efforts he couldn't stall or get away from a God, that his esoteric abilities weren't effective against them. Is your argument really that Nate could have put Ares down at any time and gotten away but...what, chose not to? The clear implication of that encounter was that Ares was, to Nate, unstoppable. That he wasn't fighting back because he didn't think it would help, and that running away was his only option.



Well, only if you ignore the Martian Manhunter showing, which you seem oddly quick to do.

It comes down to this; New Gods have shown massive telepathic immunity to 'normal' telepaths. In the instances that they haven't, Mother box has been shown to help. And then you have one instance of Orion being knocked out by a sneak attack telepathic attack.

Just in terms of telepathic resistance, it seems it is more likely that Orion is to be immune to telepathy - as he has two different methods - than not. Especially when you consider that Nate was having trouble with Norman's psyche, just that of a normal man.

And then when you take into account Nate's demonstrated inability to put down a god, a much less powerful god, I again can't help but feel this is a no brainer.

godrefy did convince them, but not all of them. jonnz mom didn't believe him. i think the others wanted to and it took quite a while. and again, it's true the martians weren't able to read their minds, but they made a point of not TRYING either. until the end, when most of them were dead or taken. what would have happened had there been a concerted effort against one of the new gods? not sure....

here's the jla scans. it wanted to shield orion, but couldn't because of his anger. it didn't shield him until steel actually takes the mb and reprograms it. throughout the arc, even when he wasn't raging, adam strange made a point of not telling any of the jla (except jonn) about his on-going plan because the entarans would have pulled it from their minds. the need of mb's protection and strange's unwillingness to share his info seem to pretty clearly to indicate to me that orion is not immune to tp.

http://imageshack.us/f/824/jla02104.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/f/6/jla02105.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/f/585/jla02106.jpg/

as far as mb: it may protect orion. but he had it and the entarans still seemed able to read his mind and affect him with their telepathic whips. would it be strong enough to save orion? beats me, but nate's tp is REALLY uber. but still, maybe.

i'm not saying nate could have taken ares out at any time. ares is a beast. i AM saying that he didn't actually TRY and hurt him--or any of them, btw--and that it was implied in the issue that nate didn't really WANT to escape because in the end he took over norman. after catching ares' axe with his hands, he didn't even bother using a shield! no blasts, no tk, no anything. i just think he didn't really TRY to fight back. as a result, i don't think that anything can be gained from looking at that fight.

i'm not 'quickly' dismissing the manhunter issue, but i don't see it as relevant as you do because (a) this is about orion and he wasn't even IN the issue, and (b) max has taken him out and the jla issue indicates to me he needs to be SHIELDED from tp by mb. that's enough to tell me he has no natural immunity.

can orion win this fight? of course. but i think nate can certainly take some as well. mb's have been destroyed in the past. not sure nate could do it. this is a hard fight to call imo, and i certainly don't see it as a no-brainer.

I think the biggest asset to Nate in this, and various battles. Are his Telepathy + Precognition. Its hard to hide your intention, and would generally set the pace to counter anything Orion throws at him.

Originally posted by leonidas
yeah, i'm not sure..... orion is not immune to tp or its effects so theoretically nate should be able to affect him that way. i'd give orion the overall power edge for sure, but nate is not that far behind and has better overall mastery of his skillset. no sweeps either way for sure, but not sure who would take a majority. too many different ways this battle could go. i could even see the occasional stomp in either direction. shrug

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Darkseid's taint

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Orion uses the Genesis Box FTW That was created by an alternate reality depowered Orion and certainly isn't standard equipment.

Nate`s shields have stood up to a barrage of blows from freaking Modt(!). Orion is a hardass but I figure Nate can put him down before even the Dog of war can smash his way trough that kind of shielding.

Orion has shielding of his own. Through the Astro Force.

Since when is Nate a Martian? X-man wins 6/10 .