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Instead of the Clone Wars, the Sith Empire invades Republic space. The leadership is spearheaded by Darth Malgus. The Sith attack the Jedi Temple and Malgus faces Anakin. Who wins this battle?

The new song for Anakin: http://youtu.be/sR-ZBWzxfkI

This is so unfair. Darth Malgus as of Deceived would utterly rape Anakin. Hell, I bet he'd be a tough match for Mace or Dooku.

Malgus would destroy Anakin.

Anakin goes into teh zone and whoops him.

Malgus can go into similar mental state too. Using clarity and rage as a weapon.

That's what all dark siders use as a weapon.

Not like this:

He resided in the calm eye of a storm of hate. Power churned around him, within him. He did not feel as if he were drawing on the Force, using it. He felt as if he were the Force, as if he had merged with it.

No, that sounds like just about every darksider harnessing their rage ever.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
No, that sounds like just about every darksider harnessing their rage ever.
Prove your assumption by giving a similar example.

He did not feel as if he were drawing on the Force, using it. He felt as if he were the Force, as if he had merged with it.

You know what this means?

This is state of oneness with the Force.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Malgus can go into similar mental state too. Using clarity and rage as a weapon.

You say that like it matters.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Prove your assumption by giving a similar example.

He did not feel as if he were drawing on the Force, using it. He felt as if he were the Force, as if he had merged with it.

You know what this means?

This is state of oneness with the Force.

I doubt it. Obi-Wan does the same thing in RotS. I think its implied that he always fights like that.

Nothing about Anakin puts him on the same level, or even close to Malgus, as far as the force goes.

The same thing could be said about Dooku. he

Not sure how dooku's saber prowess or failings against Anakin apply here.

If Anakin goes super sayian then Malgus has as much chance as Dooku did.

Originally posted by Nephthys
If Anakin goes super sayian then Malgus has as much chance as Dooku did.

The problem with this argument is that it assumes heavily that all fights will go exactly as did the RotS one against Dooku. It ignores the fact that Dooku was toying with Anakin, helping the young Jedi build his rage, and that he ultimately underestimated him.

Having read Deceived, I have a profound respect for Malgus and his level of power. The things he is capable of at that point far outstrip anything RotS Anakin has done. Just to cover some specifics:

1. Malgus is over two meters tall, pure muscle, and routinely does feats of strength which surpass Anakin's. Perhaps even Vader's.

2. He's shown the ability to use TK on a superior level, such as his shockwave attack (similar to Starkiller).

3. He's incredibly fast for all his size and strength. While Aryn Veneer was faster (because she ****ing rules), ultimately both Force users were blurs to Zeerid.

4. When he was done toying with Aryn Veneer, the lightning he smote her with was pretty much unblockable and knocked her unconscious.

5. He utterly destroyed Jedi Master Zallow and Sith Lord Adraas with contemptuous ease.

Really, like I said I have a new profound respect for him. The only rivals he'd have in the PT era would be Mace and Yoda, and maybe Dooku and Palpatine. Barely on those two.

Have you any evidence to indicate that the Count was "toying with Anakin" beyond the issuing of taunts? Darth Sidious elicited what are best described as contemptuous cackles to Yoda many times during their duel, would you regard that as a sign that the Emperor was restraining himself?



Would you mind providing the relevant text for these feats? Otherwise, I'm not sure why any of us should be impressed.

There's more than enough to put Malgus firmly above Anakin. And that includes Anakin's one "super" feat.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
There's more than enough to put Malgus firmly above Anakin. And that includes Anakin's one "super" feat.

When I say "text", what I mean is text from the relevant source material, not other posters. I should have clarified, I apologize. Stealth Moose made some very tall claims without any foundation.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Having read Deceived, I have a profound respect for Malgus and his level of power. The things he is capable of at that point far outstrip anything RotS Anakin has done. Just to cover some specifics:

1. Malgus is over two meters tall, pure muscle, and routinely does feats of strength which surpass Anakin's. Perhaps even Vader's.

I doubt it. Anakin has his cybernetic hand, which is capable to tearing apart battledroids. Also Anakin in the zone was able to physically overpower Dooku, who is able to comfortably block General Grievous' strikes with one hand. And GG is strong enough to punch dents in starship hulls.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
2. He's shown the ability to use TK on a superior level, such as his shockwave attack (similar to Starkiller).

Anakin in the zone was able to telekinetically manhandle the Son and Daughter, who according to ares were "more powerful with the force that any Jedi have seen before."

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
3. He's incredibly fast for all his size and strength. While Aryn Veneer was faster (because she ****ing rules), ultimately both Force users were blurs to Zeerid.

The narration of RotS calls Anakin the fastest Jedi of his generation.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
4. When he was done toying with Aryn Veneer, the lightning he smote her with was pretty much unblockable and knocked her unconscious.

And I'm sure that because she couldn't block it noone else could either.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
5. He utterly destroyed Jedi Master Zallow and Sith Lord Adraas with contemptuous ease.

Good for him.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Really, like I said I have a new profound respect for him. The only rivals he'd have in the PT era would be Mace and Yoda, and maybe Dooku and Palpatine. Barely on those two.

Dooku would defeat him imo. At least thats the way my discussion on the matter with LeGeND went.

I'll correct you politely before the Moose exploits the opportunity to do so rudely. Ares, while undoubtedly dashing and suave, is not a valid source. In this case, the quote provided by him is attributed to the opening narrator of The Clone Wars series.

Well duh.

There can be no mistakes here. Legend has it that there was once a user who prowled the corridors of this particular forum and terrorized the plebes for their semantical slip ups. Lest you wish to be haunted by his dark spirit, tread lightly....

I'm not afraid! I could take'em!

... probably... mmm

The skills associated with him are legendary in their scope and refinement.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You say that like it matters.
Yes, it matters.

I am talking about Post-DE incarnation of Malgus who has no notable weakness or worries. He has a clear mind and complete control over his emotions.

Thinking of Eleena blew oxygen on the embers of his anger. In life, Eleena had been his weakness, a tool to be exploited by rivals. In death, she had become his strength, her memory the lens of his rage.

He resided in the calm eye of a storm of hate. Power churned around him, within him. He did not feel as if he were drawing on the Force, using it. He felt as if he were the Force, as if he had merged with it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I doubt it. Obi-Wan does the same thing in RotS. I think its implied that he always fights like that.
When did Obi-Wan felt that he was not using the Force but actually had merged with it during his duels in ROTS?

Oneness with the Force means that a Force-user manages to become an extension of the Force itself.

The description you provided in your next post reveals that Obi-Wan was calm and this was happening:

The Force responded to his emotional state, caught him up in its power until he was awash in it.

There are two sides of the coin. If you focus on the other side, you will understand that Obi-Wan was calling upon the Force to block all secondary thoughts and build his strength. This is not a state of oneness. It is merely a tricky description of how Force works and Force-users call upon it.

People are drastically wanking those cut scenes from TOR

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes, it matters.

I am talking about Post-DE incarnation of Malgus who has no notable weakness or worries. He has a clear mind and complete control over his emotions.

Thinking of Eleena blew oxygen on the embers of his anger. In life, Eleena had been his weakness, a tool to be exploited by rivals. In death, she had become his strength, her memory the lens of his rage.

He resided in the calm eye of a storm of hate. Power churned around him, within him. He did not feel as if he were drawing on the Force, using it. He felt as if he were the Force, as if he had merged with it.


Yes, I am well aware of what you were talking about. I just don't see how you think that matters in the face of Zonakins power.

Besides which the quote you provided isn't entirely persuasive. It says that Malgus 'felt as if he were the Force, as if he had merged with it', not that he actually had. If at any point Anakin 'felt as if he were unstoppable', would you argue that he actually was unstoppable. Malgus just had some psuedo-epiphany, nothing more.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
When did Obi-Wan felt that he was not using the Force but actually had merged with it during his duels in ROTS?

Oneness with the Force means that a Force-user manages to become an extension of the Force itself.

The description you provided in your next post reveals that Obi-Wan was calm and this was happening:

The Force responded to his emotional state, caught him up in its power until he was awash in it.

There are two sides of the coin. If you focus on the other side, you will understand that Obi-Wan was calling upon the Force to block all secondary thoughts and build his strength. This is not a state of oneness. It is merely a tricky description of how Force works and Force-users call upon it.


"This is Obi-Wan Kenobi in the light:

As he is prodded onto the bridge along with Anakin and Chancellor Palpatine, he has no need to look around to see the banks of control consoles tended by terrified Neimoidians. He doesn't have to turn his head to count the droidekas and super battle droids, or to gauge the positions of the brutal droid bodyguards. He doesn't bother to raise his eyes to meet the cold yellow stare fixed on him through a skull-mask of armorplast. He doesn't even need to reach into the Force. He has already let the Force reach into him. The Force flows over him and around him as though he has stepped into a crystal-pure waterfall lost in the green coils of a forgotten rain forest; when he opens himself to that sparkling stream it flows into him and through him and out again without the slightest interference from his conscious will. The part of him that calls itself Obi-Wan Kenobi is no more than a ripple, an eddy in the pool into which he endlessly pours.

.....

"That will not happen. I am in control here." The reply came through Obi-Wan's lips, but it was not truly Obi-Wan who spoke. Obi-Wan was not in control; he had no need for control. He had the Force.

It was the Force that spoke through him. Grievous stalked forward. Obi-Wan saw death in the cold yellow stare through the skull-mask's eyeholes, and it meant nothing to him at all.

....

The Force replied through Obi-Wan's lips, "I don't think so."

Here we can see Kenobi 'merging' with the Force to such a degree that it speaks through him. The text makes it clear that Obi-Wan is experiencing an unusual state of one-ness with the Force at the time. So yeah, quit acting as if Malgus did something incredible. Obi-Wan experienced an actual state of one-ness, he didn't just get a power-high and trip balls on how 'awesome' he is for killing his wife like a goddamn psycho.

<> you, Neph!

Rails before Pails!

I flipped through (metaphorically speaking, since my copy is a pdf file) some of Deceived and while I'm not yet at liberty to speak to all of the claims issued by the Moose, I can say for certain that the supposed ease with which Malgus dispatched Zallow is exaggerated.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
This is so unfair. Darth Malgus as of Deceived would utterly rape Anakin. Hell, I bet he'd be a tough match for Mace or Dooku.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Malgus can go into similar mental state too. Using clarity and rage as a weapon.

If you think Malgus can defeat the Chosen 1 that curbstomped Dooku, than you are sorely Decieved.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes, I am well aware of what you were talking about. I just don't see how you think that matters in the face of Zonakins power.
It matters. The death of Daru allowed Malgus to achieve an extremely refined mental state. He was able to empower himself to such a degree that the Force signature masking technique was rendered ineffective, and he left a trail of destruction in his path.

Now what is Zonakin? It is just a fan invented terminology to describe the refined state of mind of Anakin when he confronted Count Dooku and utilized Sith philosophy to deal with him.

Count Dooku had his prime moments but this was not his time. His dueling skills did not work against Anakin.

For Malgus, should I use the term Zonalgus?

Problem with Zonakin philosophy is that people assume that Anakin with a refined mental state can handle everybody. I accept that he would be a formidable opponent for many under this state but not unstoppable. He had the potential to become exceptional but lost it.

Yoda was confident that Obi-Wan could handle Anakin. And his assessment was proven. And nothing in the ROTS novelization suggests that Anakin was mentally disturbed during his duel with Obi-Wan. So?

Don't presume too much. Malgus is stronger and more dangerous then Count Dooku.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Besides which the quote you provided isn't entirely persuasive. It says that Malgus 'felt as if he were the Force, as if he had merged with it', not that he actually had. If at any point Anakin 'felt as if he were unstoppable', would you argue that he actually was unstoppable. Malgus just had some psuedo-epiphany, nothing more.
Malgus got empowered to such a degree by his mental condition at that moment that he felt like that. There is substance behind this psuedo-epiphany.

Originally posted by Nephthys
"This is Obi-Wan Kenobi in the light:

As he is prodded onto the bridge along with Anakin and Chancellor Palpatine, he has no need to look around to see the banks of control consoles tended by terrified Neimoidians. He doesn't have to turn his head to count the droidekas and super battle droids, or to gauge the positions of the brutal droid bodyguards. He doesn't bother to raise his eyes to meet the cold yellow stare fixed on him through a skull-mask of armorplast. He doesn't even need to reach into the Force. He has already let the Force reach into him. The Force flows over him and around him as though he has stepped into a crystal-pure waterfall lost in the green coils of a forgotten rain forest; when he opens himself to that sparkling stream it flows into him and through him and out again without the slightest interference from his conscious will. The part of him that calls itself Obi-Wan Kenobi is no more than a ripple, an eddy in the pool into which he endlessly pours.

.....

"That will not happen. I am in control here." The reply came through Obi-Wan's lips, but it was not truly Obi-Wan who spoke. Obi-Wan was not in control; he had no need for control. He had the Force.

It was the Force that spoke through him. Grievous stalked forward. Obi-Wan saw death in the cold yellow stare through the skull-mask's eyeholes, and it meant nothing to him at all.

....

The Force replied through Obi-Wan's lips, "I don't think so."

Here we can see Kenobi 'merging' with the Force to such a degree that it speaks through him. The text makes it clear that Obi-Wan is experiencing an unusual state of one-ness with the Force at the time. So yeah, quit acting as if Malgus did something incredible. Obi-Wan experienced an actual state of one-ness, he didn't just get a power-high and trip balls on how 'awesome' he is for killing his wife like a goddamn psycho.
Yes, I read this.

Read this again:

The Force responded to his emotional state, caught him up in its power until he was awash in it.

This is condition of Malgus before the battle in Jedi Temple. Very similar to that of Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
If you think Malgus can defeat the Chosen 1 that curbstomped Dooku, than you are sorely Decieved.
Sir, snap out of this nonsense.

Count Dooku is inadequate basis. We need more evidence.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
If you think Malgus can defeat the Chosen 1 that curbstomped Dooku, than you are sorely Decieved.

http://www.crossfiteastvillage.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Oh-Snap.jpg

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It matters. The death of Daru allowed Malgus to achieve an extremely refined mental state. He was able to empower himself to such a degree that the Force signature masking technique was rendered ineffective, and he left a trail of destruction in his path.

Yes, I know that. However, since Anakin is faaaaar more powerful than Malgus can ever hope to dream about (G-Canon statement puts Anakin at twice as powerful as Darth Sidious, widely believed to be the most powerful Sith Lord in the mythos), Anakins experience of tapping into his full potential is much more effective than Malgus'.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Now what is Zonakin? It is just a fan invented terminology to describe the refined state of mind of Anakin when he confronted Count Dooku and utilized Sith philosophy to deal with him.

Correct in the first regard. However you sell Zonakin short. It allowed Anakin to reach a state in which Dooku became a complete joke in comparision and where he was able to end the duel when he felt like it.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Count Dooku had his prime moments but this was not his time. His dueling skills did not work against Anakin.

It was of no fault of Dooku's. Anakin simply surpassed him.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
For Malgus, should I use the term Zonalgus?

If you wanted to. But it would be supremely disingenuous of you to assume that you can compare the state Anakin achieved and Malgus achieved and expect us to value them the same. Anakin is the Chosen One. Malgus is just another Sith Lord.

Do you understand?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Problem with Zonakin philosophy is that people assume that Anakin with a refined mental state can handle everybody. I accept that he would be a formidable opponent for many under this state but not unstoppable. He had the potential to become exceptional but lost it.

We've never said that Anakin would be unstoppable in this state. But the fact remains that he was elevated to a degree where Dooku's Force Mastery became irrelevent and in which Anakin curbstomped him without effort. Not even Yoda was capable of that.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yoda was confident that Obi-Wan could handle Anakin. And his assessment was proven. And nothing in the ROTS novelization suggests that Anakin was mentally disturbed during his duel with Obi-Wan. So?

Anakin obviously was disturbed in that duel, and at the very least was not able to reach the lofty heights he had in his duel with Dooku, otherwise you bet you ass he would have beaten Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Don't presume too much. Malgus is stronger and more dangerous then Count Dooku.

I'm sorry, I don't think those claims have been proven as of yet, kekeke.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Malgus got empowered to such a degree by his mental condition at that moment that he felt like that. There is substance behind this psuedo-epiphany.

There is no substance in a feeling. Your point is without merit.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes, I read this.

Read this again:

The Force responded to his emotional state, caught him up in its power until he was awash in it.

This is condition of Malgus before the battle in Jedi Temple. Very similar to that of Obi-Wan.

Not in the slightest. Again I say, Obi-Wan was in such a state that the Force spoke directly through him. You fail sir.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Sir, snap out of this nonsense.

Count Dooku is inadequate basis. We need more evidence.


I think we have enough evidence from our last debate to establish that Dooku is in no way inadequate compared to Malgus, kekeke.

Anakin. He was able to defeat Dooku, who was one of the finest fencers in the jedi order (he was at the same level with Yoda and Windu). And Malgus? He defeat an exhausted master Darach. He lost to young Satele Shan in a force fight. His force powers was impressive only vs weaker people then himself. I don't know master Zallow skills (i mean i don't know how good he really is - maybe Kit Fisto level?) but Malgus had some problems with him. Dooku and Sidious on the other hand were able to destroy jedi masters without problems (Dooku vs Bulq, or Kenobi, Sidious vs Fisto, Kolar, Tinn).

^LOL

^ LOLx2

C-c-c-c-combo breaker!

What are we laughing at?

dunno

Lame.




REPLY ON ROK YOU FLACCID FOOLS!

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes, I know that. However, since Anakin is faaaaar more powerful than Malgus can ever hope to dream about (G-Canon statement puts Anakin at twice as powerful as Darth Sidious, widely believed to be the most powerful Sith Lord in the mythos), Anakins experience of tapping into his full potential is much more effective than Malgus'.
Anakin had the POTENTIAL to become as powerful as you mention. However, he did not.

You need to PROVE that Anakin unlocked his full potential against Count Dooku.

Do you really think that such power was needed to overcome Count? I don't think so.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Correct in the first regard. However you sell Zonakin short. It allowed Anakin to reach a state in which Dooku became a complete joke in comparision and where he was able to end the duel when he felt like it.
I don't sell Zonakin short. I clearly stated that he would be a formidable opponent for many in the mythos.

However, Zonakin did not faced any force powers. He forced Count Dooku in to submission in a lightsaber duel.

Do you think that force powers would not work on Zonakin?

Originally posted by Nephthys
It was of no fault of Dooku's. Anakin simply surpassed him.
So this proves that Anakin can beat everybody?

Originally posted by Nephthys
If you wanted to. But it would be supremely disingenuous of you to assume that you can compare the state Anakin achieved and Malgus achieved and expect us to value them the same. Anakin is the Chosen One. Malgus is just another Sith Lord.
Being the Chosen One is meaningless. By your logic Sithari should be the most powerful Sith. You know that this is not true.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Do you understand?
See above.

Originally posted by Nephthys
We've never said that Anakin would be unstoppable in this state. But the fact remains that he was elevated to a degree where Dooku's Force Mastery became irrelevent and in which Anakin curbstomped him without effort. Not even Yoda was capable of that.
Dooku's Force mastery was irrelevant against Yoda too, as witnessed on Geonosis. In addition, Yoda has soft corner for him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Anakin obviously was disturbed in that duel, and at the very least was not able to reach the lofty heights he had in his duel with Dooku, otherwise you bet you ass he would have beaten Obi-Wan.
This is your assumption. There is no indication even in the novelization of this.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm sorry, I don't think those claims have been proven as of yet, kekeke.
You have yet to prove that Count Dooku is stronger then Malgus or on par with him. All your previous attempts have ended in failure.

Originally posted by Nephthys
There is no substance in a feeling. Your point is without merit.
This is the substance:

1. Force signature masking technique rendered ineffective
2. Where Malgus went, destruction followed.
3. Manhandling of Adraas.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not in the slightest. Again I say, Obi-Wan was in such a state that the Force spoke directly through him. You fail sir.
You have trouble in understanding expressions.

The Force responded to his emotional state

Try to comprehend the above statement.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I think we have enough evidence from our last debate to establish that Dooku is in no way inadequate compared to Malgus, kekeke.
Malgus is more powerful and dangerous.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Anakin had the POTENTIAL to become as powerful as you mention. However, he did not.

You need to PROVE that Anakin unlocked his full potential against Count Dooku.

Do you really think that such power was needed to overcome Count? I don't think so.

I never claimed that he achieved the entirely of his potential. He began to finally tap into his true potential, in the same way that Luke becoming enraged in RotJ was able to overpower Vader despite the latters extremely advantage over the former. I'm merely explaining to you that Anakin would get a hell of a lot more from tapping into his full potential than Malgus.

Your laughable attempt to compare the two states has failed. You think just by saying that Malgus 'felt like he had become the Force' (lol) that we'll assume that he got an upgrade equal to Anakins? Or one that elevates him beyond anything Anakin can achieve? No.

Understand that I'm not just saying that Anakin became incredibly awesome and therefore he wins, I'm saying that Anakin became so powerful that he utterly curbstomped Count Dooku with ease. I'm using actual evidence. You might want to try it some time.



Know this:

Throughout the entire fight Anakin is holding back:

"This boy had the gift of fury.

And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step, Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread.

Dread, Dooku surmised, of himself. Of what might happen if he should ever allow that furnace he used for a heart to go supercritical."



Understand this. Even holding back Anakin was forcing Dooku back and defeating him. And when Anakin ceases to hold back we get this:



"A starburst of clarity blossoms within Anakin Skywalker's mind, when he says to himself Oh. I get it, now and discovers that the fear within his heart can be a weapon, too.

It is that simple, and that complex.

And it is final.

Dooku is dead already. The rest is mere detail.

The play is still on; the comedy of lightsabers flashes and snaps and hisses. Dooku & Skywalker, a one-time-only command performance, for an audience of one. Jedi and Sith and Sith and Jedi, spinning, whirling, crashing together, slashing and chopping, parrying, binding, slipping and whipping and ripping the air around them with snarls of power.

And all for nothing, because a nuclear flame has consumed Anakin Skywalker's Jedi restraint, and fear becomes fury without effort, and fury is a blade that makes his lightsaber into a toy.

The play goes on, but the suspense is over. It has become mere pantomime, as intricate and as meaningless as the space-time curves that guide galactic clusters through a measureless cosmos.

Dooku's decades of combat experience are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay is useless. His vast wealth, his political influence, impeccable breeding, immaculate manners, exquisite taste-the pursuits and points of pride to which he has devoted so much of his time and attention over the long, long years of his life-are now chains hung upon his spirit, bending his neck before the ax.

Even his knowledge of the Force has become a joke."


This is why Anakin wins.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I don't sell Zonakin short. I clearly stated that he would be a formidable opponent for many in the mythos.

However, Zonakin did not faced any force powers. He forced Count Dooku in to submission in a lightsaber duel.

Do you think that force powers would not work on Zonakin?

As I have stated in the thread already, the duel with Dooku is not the only time Anakin has been able to tap into his true potential. In the Mortis trilogy he also does so and telekinetically dominates the Son and Daughter, two beings that were described by the narration as being "more powerful with the Force that any Jedi have seen before."

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
So this proves that Anakin can beat everybody?

I've already stated that this isn't the case.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Being the Chosen One is meaningless. By your logic Sithari should be the most powerful Sith. You know that this is not true.

Except that George Lucas has directly backed up Anakins strength in the Force as being twice that of Sidious.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Dooku's Force mastery was irrelevant against Yoda too, as witnessed on Geonosis. In addition, Yoda has soft corner for him.

Dooku's Force Mastery is not irrelevent against Yoda, its one of the reasons why he can duel with him somewhat equally.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is your assumption. There is no indication even in the novelization of this.

There is also no indication that Anakin was 'In teh Zone' or that he utilising his rage properly in the duel. Also, its ****ing obvious that he's disturbed in that scene, one only has to watch the movie to see that. Anakin chokes his own wife and paces back and forth while screaming paranoid rants. Right after he had massacred a bunch of people and was crying.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You have yet to prove that Count Dooku is stronger then Malgus or on par with him. All your previous attempts have ended in failure.

Actually its the other way around. You were asserting that Malgus was superior to Dooku, a claim that you couldn't establish as fact.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is the substance:

1. Force signature masking technique rendered ineffective
2. Where Malgus went, destruction followed.
3. Manhandling of Adraas.

OK, Malgus causing quote/unquote "destruction" and beating up Adraas clearly shows that Anakin has no chance against him. Thank you for this wealth of evidence.

Though I would be interested in hearing about this Force signature masking technique.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You have trouble in understanding expressions.

The Force responded to his emotional state

Try to comprehend the above statement.

I'm sorry, but I don't speak bullshit. You'll need to translate it for me. How does that quote in any way establish whatever it is you're arguing?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Malgus is more powerful and dangerous.

no u

So what's the verdict on Malgus and this thread?

Originally posted by EdgeOfTheMoment
So what's the verdict on Malgus and this thread?

Zonakin would demolish him.

You've read Deceived, then?

I have.

What do you think?

The Moose's lack of response/clarification to these many points is discouraging. He seems to favor pre-film characters in allmost threads. What I've read for myself undermines the idea that Malgus curbstomped Zallow with "contemptuous ease." But then I must confess that I'm disinclined to read much more of the novel; Williams isn't especially entertaining to me, particularly with regards to The Force Unleashed novels which were absolutely horrific.

I don't have enough reliable information about Malgus to determine the victor.

Try Wookiepedia.

Originally posted by EdgeOfTheMoment
The Moose's lack of response/clarification to these many points is discouraging. He seems to favor pre-film characters in allmost threads. What I've read for myself undermines the idea that Malgus curbstomped Zallow with "contemptuous ease." But then I must confess that I'm disinclined to read much more of the novel; Williams isn't especially entertaining to me, particularly with regards to The Force Unleashed novels which were absolutely horrific.

I don't have enough reliable information about Malgus to determine the victor.

To be fair, my classes just started this week and I'm fighting to maintain equilibrium between that and TOR. Debating line for line about the novel is kind of time-consuming. And while normally I'd jump at the opportunity to e-duel with you, I must pass. But read the book nonetheless. It was very good, painting a great picture of the main characters.

I don't put a great deal of faith in Wookieepedia when it comes to making determinations of characters. Remember, the contributors could be as biased as any of the posters here. The entry on Vitiate, for example, would differ wildly if written by me than if by Dr McBeefington.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Zonakin would demolish him.

Notsreifsrs

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Notsreifsrs

Darth Malgus doesn't have many good showings in spite of having his own novel and being the Mary Sue of the The Sith Empire. He certainly doesn't have the showings to come close to Anakin when he taps into his true potential.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Then we are agreed?
Not yet;

Malgus has greater command of the Force? Check

Malgus has demonstrated the capability to fight for a long duration? Check

Malgus' masters noted that he had great potential? Check

Malgus has greater physical strength? Check

Malgus was an expert and aggressive duelist? Check

Malgus packed incredible tolerance? Check

Do you get the picture?

Originally posted by Nephthys
And you are wanking the hell out of it.
You are trying to cheapen those details.

You make it sound like as if Anakin got EXTRAORDINARY power boost, right?

Did he destroyed the entire room? Did he atomized Count Dooku? Did he tilted the Starship or something?

He got the strength to overcome Count Dooku and I gave an assessment of it. Exactly how potent he was at that moment in the grand picture is open to speculation.

Originally posted by Nephthys
This doesn't prove much of anything other than Malgus lost control of suppressing his Force signature. We already know Malgus grew in power from his epiphany, this doesn't add anything.
Force concealment would have been effective, given the affinity of Malgus with the Force under normal circumstances.

However, Malgus was awashed in power to such a degree during his raid on resting place of Adraas that his attempt to conceal his Force signature did not work. This doesn't prove much, right?

Originally posted by Nephthys
So this destruction you've been hyping up has been Malgus flipping some desks and snapping the wangs off naughty furtniture? Wow, I am so unimpressed.
Read the information carefully. The destruction extended to everything within the rooms including statues.

If you will come out of the shell of your fanboyism, you will be impressed.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The singular half-way impressive thing he does. Theres nothing in this that I see as approaching Anakins ownage of Dooku. Adraas is certainly no Darth Tyrannus.
You have a habit of underestimating newcomers. You need to drop this habit.

While Adraas has got limited screen time, his showings with the Force are decent.

The manner in which he owned a squad of troops is impressive. He shattered a portion of the Jedi Temple floor in the process.

http://i39.tinypic.com/zx39mt.png

And his Force Lightning assault caused pain to even Malgus (an individual with great tolerance).

Originally posted by Nephthys
How could I not considering you post it every time we have a conversation?
But you tend to overlook it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I've seen them. The Old Republic trailer is naturally going to be more visually appealling becuase it isn't limited to live-action. The Anakin in that video is already a high-end master of multiple saber styles to the degree that he can create his own lightsaber form, however, from the uninspired visuals he doesn't look that impressive. But he is. Far more impressive than Malgus in terms of lightsaber mastery.
This is pathetic excuse. ROTS movie is filled with visually appealing special effects and its budget was $ 113 million.

Human factor is no longer the limitation. Superman Returns, Fantastic Four series, and X-Men series movies are examples.

Consider the The Thing movies. The special effects of the original are still worthy of praise and look very realistic. It all depends upon the creativity.

In addition, watch this video:

9XI0e1C-0u4

NOTE: 45 - 54.

The cinematic trailers from Bioware are as realistic as movies. They are not like cartoons. Therefore, comparison remains valid.

Malgus' speed is such that human eyes cannot properly track his moves.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Malgus was fighting above Korriban though. Do you not think he was benefitting from the darkside nexus of that place?
He was in space. Not on the planet surface or within its environment.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And Anakin wasn't helped by the Father at that point. that happens later I believe.
I will recheck the Ghosts of Mortis video and will update accordingly.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And I wasn't? Anakin achieving a heightened power is directly tied into his enormous potential. Malgus doesn't have even close to Force Strength to draw upon.
This is strawman assumption. The midichlorian count of other characters besides Anakin have never been revealed.

Anakin maybe able to replenish his energies for a long duration - but this would be useless against an opponent who has much greater command of the Force. The latter would overwhelm Anakin and put him out of commission in a short span of time.

For example; do you think that Zonakin can handle DE Sidious?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yoda didn't defeat Dooku with the Force, as he does to lesser combatants (Ventress). He was forced to enagage the Count in lightsaber combat, which is Dookus speciality. And Force Mastery can apply in lightsaber duels as well.
Yoda was showing restraint. He countered every Force based move from Count Dooku. But he adopted defensive stance.

If Yoda could send Sidious packing with his Force push, he could do better against Count Dooku.

And Anakin has never dominated Count Dooku in a Force based contest.

This encounter is a good example:

Lu0OyV8rnfU

The statement from ROTS novelization is speculative.

Originally posted by Nephthys


Yes, that clearly proves that Anakin was super serious about the duel. That is incontravertable proof right there.
Anakin was joking, right?

Originally posted by Nephthys
No. As I've said, Anakin was in a crazed rage throughout the entire duel. This doesn't prove that Anakin reached the level of clarity and power that he did when he fought Dooku. If you have anything that suggests that he did, please provide that.
You have a habit of misrepresenting the descriptions. Sith fuel their power with emotions during combat situations. Anakin utilized Sith philosophy against Obi-Wan.

And you forget this part:

Blade-to-blade, they were identical. After thousands of hours in lightsaber sparring, they knew each other better than brothers, more intimately than lovers; they were complementary halves of a single warrior.

In every exchange, Obi-Wan gave ground. It was his way. And he knew that to strike Anakin down would burn his own heart to ash.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You established nothing. I defeated your every point, you just focus on the stones argument because thats the only part that you can pretend that you 'won' during our talk. Face it, Malgus hasn't even been established as being superior to Dooku. Malgus isn't as awesome as you think he is.
So your fantasies live on? You brought the stones argument in the first place. I countered it.

Again, what have Count Dooku done which puts him on par with Malgus?

Malgus has tolerated direct missile strikes, survived in battles against Force prodigies who actually attempted to kill him, tore through starship parts hurled towards him, prevented tons of debris from crushing him while being unprepared, survived multiple lightsaber stabs, dominated very strong and skilled opponents ...........

Originally posted by Nephthys
You like Anakin more than Malgus? Fair enough, though I hope you're not suggesting that I am picked Anakin out of bias.
You actually did. You do the same with Dooku.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Why was Malgus suppresing his Force signature?
He wanted to go in undetected and use element of surprise against Adraas.

Originally posted by Nephthys
How is this any different from a state of one-ness with the Force? Its certainly more impressive that Malgus getting a feeling.
What kind of powerboost Obi-Wan got? Because as far I remember, he killed Grievous with a blaster in the end.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The Force is an entity with its own will.
I admit that this is a separate debate. However, this is good enough for the moment:

"Well, the Force is what gives a Jedi his power."

The Force-sensitives call upon the Force to serve their purpose. The Force itself does not possesses them and turns them into mindless drones for a while. This is my intended point.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And I sincerely fail to see how you can argue that my example is merely a poetic piece of prose and yours isn't.
What kind of powerboost did he got?

Originally posted by Nephthys
For what? I was making fun of you.
It lightened my mood.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

However, Zonakin did not faced any force powers. He forced Count Dooku in to submission in a lightsaber duel.

Do you think that force powers would not work on Zonakin?




To be fair we have no idea the level of Force TK Zone Anakin could have handled. And we most likely will never know, so its just down to speculation on that point.

What we do know however is that Dooku's knowledge of the Force had become a Joke. Which could be down to Anakin being too powerful in the force, or could be down to Anakin just not giving Dooku even half a second to utilize any of his Force TK powers.

Sorry, this is Anakin, not Zonakin. Before Ush closes this thread for his own vague reasons, lets just agree Anakin stands no chance with the force.

It's awfully quiet in that off-topic thread, Beefy.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Sorry, this is Anakin, not Zonakin. Before Ush closes this thread for his own vague reasons, lets just agree Anakin stands no chance with the force.

Im confused. Because the OP says ROTS Anakin. And "Zone Anakin" was Anakin in ROTS..

It's a four-way split for RotS Anakin.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Sorry, this is Anakin, not Zonakin. Before Ush closes this thread for his own vague reasons, lets just agree Anakin stands no chance with the force.

That is true. But in an all out duel if Anakin snaps Malgus is going down and he's going to go down really fast.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
That is true. But in an all out duel if Anakin snaps Malgus is going down and he's going to go down really fast.

Basically, the only time we can evaluate "Zonakin" is him grabbing Dooku's arms and pulling them in so he could hack the guy's arms off. We'll ignore the fact that Dooku provided what appeared to be no resistance nor any Force moves to counter this.

So here's what we can establish about Zonakin.

1. He's really powerful. I mean, really. How much? I dunno, but if it supports my bias, he's more powerful than anyone ever, because slippery slope arguments rule!.

2. His demonstrated skills include... wait, I'm sorry, all he did was get a few seconds' jump on Dooku in close-quarters. There's nothing to suggest he could do the same to other components in entirely different scenarios. Furthermore, there's absolutely nothing to suggest Anakin could use "Zonakin" in other scenarios, period. He certainly didn't use it when his life depended on it against Obi-Wan.

3. Since even Escape has admitted that Force mastery > Innate Force powers, it stands to reason that Zonakin could conceivably fail or be warded off by a superior Force user. At this time I submit that Malgus as of TOR is 28 years past his victory at Korriban, and one of the foremost practitioners of the Force in his era, including the Emperor, Satele, and the Dark Council which itself borders on ridiculous.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Basically, the only time we can evaluate "Zonakin" is him grabbing Dooku's arms and pulling them in so he could hack the guy's arms off. We'll ignore the fact that Dooku provided what appeared to be no resistance nor any Force moves to counter this.
We also have the Mortis episodes.



Malgus has never shown mastery of the force on the level of Darth Tyranus. Nor has his swordsmanship been shown to be superior.
People have made arguments like
'Malgus is a physical monster'
So was Tyranus who in his old age blocked Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan's double handed strikes simultaneously with ONE HAND. And yet Anakin had no trouble overpowering his defenses.
If Skywalker keeps up the pressure on Malgus he won't give him the chance to use his Force arsenal. Anakin even not In Teh Zone is still a formidable combatant.

He's been saying that for years, dude, and citing the source that corroborates it.

Originally posted by Eminence
He's been saying that for years, dude, and citing the source that corroborates it. And now he's dead. Score 1 for Peter.

Is that the one that said that 'only through dedicated study can one achieve mastery of the Force'?

Because frankly we've seen quite a few times when innate Force Powah kicked Force Mastery's ****ing ass.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
We also have the Mortis episodes.

Elaborate.



This is an amusing, considering Malgus and Dooku have never been directly compared in any canon material whatsoever and unlike the movie characters who have a rather defined hierarchy of who's top tier, who's not, etc., EU characters do not simply fall into nice neat lines of "better than X, not better than X". You have to do some elaborating on your own assertions here.

Malgus is a Sith Warrior. He's been pretty much indomitable and able to handle whatever or whoever's challenged him over the years. In comparison, Anakin Skywalker has been repeatedly tooled by Dooku almost right up to the point where he "snapped to" and overcame the Count, and he lost a protracted battle with Obi-Wan, who is if you believe some sources, not even on the same tier as Anakin and certainly nowhere near Dooku.

So the point remains - Malgus is an incredible duelist with some good visible battles under his belt and the fact that he's been practising the Dark Side and being a Sith Warrior longer than Anakin's been alive (much less been swinging a lightsaber), I'm entirely inclined to believe he has the upper hand.

If you intend to dismiss that because it doesn't fit your world-view of who is or isn't BA in Star Wars, whatever.



Correction: Dooku in almost every other circumstance utterly dominated Anakin, yet Anakin is considered superior to Malgus because somehow Dooku < Malgus. We'll ignore that A < B < C logic is invalid and cut straight to the point ... on a consistent basis, Anakin has not shown himself to be superior to the Count. When using his Full potential and banking on a situation where the Count was clearly toying with him and attempting to spark his rage (something that Malgus simply would not do) he managed to do a quick in-close move that caught Dooku off guard and won the battle.

Anakin should not be considered well above Dooku's level when he's consistently shown poorer skills and powers prior to their RotS batte. if Anakin was indeed Dooku's true superior, spanking Obi-Wan should have taken all of 2-3 seconds.

Only it didn't.

This is like arguing TPM Obi-Wan > Darth Maul, only at least Dooku has the excuse that Anakin "tapped his potential", you know? That entirely circumstantial plot device move?



This is laughable. Anakin "not in the zone" (which is Anakin fighting 99.999% of the time in the mythos) is a combatant barely on par with Obi-wan Kenobi, who himself is routinely defeated outright or narrowly avoids defeat against Assajj Ventress, Dooku, Maul, etc. Even Jango Fett almost beat Obi-Wan's ass. The point being, Anakin could flail like his life depends on it (because it does) and Malgus, the elder, likely stronger, craftier, more proficient in both Force usage and the Dark Side, entirely capable of letting the strongheaded and typically stupid Anakin work himself into a bad situation (which he's done many many times) and then brutally murder him because quite frankly Malgus gets bored fighting little mewling Jedi.



Right, but more often than not, a masterful Force user will overcome a raw grunt who has not mastered the same move. Case in point, Dooku's mastery of the Force far exceeds anyone in the Jedi Order saving Mace and Yoda. Anakin is entirely overcome whenever he employs it, as is Obi-Wan. Anakin has never demonstrated the capability to overcome Dooku strictly in the Force. Therefore, it seems entirely illogical to conclude that Malgus, who is a bonafide Force expert and uses a lot of strong abilities, would be overcome by Anakin.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
And now he's dead. Score 1 for Peter.

That was a good episode. Seriously though, the fact that this fight is still even a discussion speaks volumes for the lack of mental stability of some of you.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
We'll ignore that A < B < C logic is invalid and cut straight to the point

Hmmm.... mmm

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
.if Anakin was indeed Dooku's true superior, spanking Obi-Wan should have taken all of 2-3 seconds.

Isn't that A>B>C logic as well?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
This is laughable. Anakin "not in the zone" (which is Anakin fighting 99.999% of the time in the mythos) is a combatant barely on par with Obi-wan Kenobi, who himself is routinely defeated outright or narrowly avoids defeat against Assajj Ventress, Dooku, Maul, etc. Even Jango Fett almost beat Obi-Wan's ass.

Would not this comparison also be ABC logic? As well as quite laughably ignoring all sense of context in said comparison,

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Right, but more often than not, a masterful Force user will overcome a raw grunt who has not mastered the same move. Case in point, Dooku's mastery of the Force far exceeds anyone in the Jedi Order saving Mace and Yoda. Anakin is entirely overcome whenever he employs it, as is Obi-Wan. Anakin has never demonstrated the capability to overcome Dooku strictly in the Force. Therefore, it seems entirely illogical to conclude that Malgus, who is a bonafide Force expert and uses a lot of strong abilities, would be overcome by Anakin.

I'll reply later when I've slept.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Elaborate.
Suppressing Son and Daughter with TK is incredibly impressive when they are hailed as the most powerful beings in known space.



Of course they don't. Different combatants are better against others. However there is an obvious difference in levels between people like Dooku and people like Kenobi.


There are Thousands if not hundreds of thousands of Sith Warriors at the time of the Great War. Are you implying that all of them are superior to Anakin because they are Sith Warriors? Malgus being indomitable and being able to handle anyone who challenged him isn't really that impressive. He did not participate in the powershifts that most of the other Sith of the era participated in.
I could see if he served on the Dark Council for decades. But it's pretty stated that Malgus' rank did not reflect his power. Why? Because he was a crappy politician and didn't aspire to be on the Dark Council.

If by "repeatedly tooled" you mean put on his ass once and having to use Magna Guards to subdue him the next. Then you would be correct. Anakin has held his own in duels with the good Count on many occasions.


Well that would very well depend. If Malgus baits out Anakin and he goes in the zone Malgus will end up dead.


You must be joking. I think Malgus is the most incredible badass in the Old Republic. If this was going on popularity I'd give it to him hands down over the posterboy whiner of the PT era.


In half the fights Anakin's had with Dooku (4 times) Dooku has tried to use Dun Moch and been put on his ass for it. The first time on Tatooine the second time on the Invisible Hand. Why would Malgus not try to bait Skywalker? A Sith using Dun Moch is really not that far-fetched.


That's A>B>C logic. Anakin defeated Tyranus because yes he is just a bad opponent. A Master of Form V will always triumph over an equal Master of Form II.


Yes except Maul outright defeated Kenobi. So your example sucks. What it would be like is arguing that Obi-Wan was on Maul's level, which is true. An enraged Kenobi is on Maul's level.


Really? Because on Tatooine I recall him putting Dooku right on his ass the moment he mentioned Asoka. Your argument Malgus is older and more experienced so he's going to pwn him is really crappy. Also Anakin has never proven to be stupid, especially considering that he has outsmarted tactical geniuses like Grievous and Trench on the field of battle.
My point is that I doubt Malgus will immediately go for the kill. He'll likely draw it out. And if he pokes and prods Anakin in his arrogance like Dooku, he will be put down just like Tyranus was.

I don't see anakin being weak in the force at all. Didn't he shake down a 20 story building in LOE by unleashing his rage and wasn't he able to lift a 100 foot statue with TK and smash open the temple doors with ease?

Neph:


Actually, a lot of that was simply highlighting the error in his reasoning. IF it's logical to assume that Malgus can't beat Anakin because he is somehow inferior to Dooku (this assertion is simply put forth by M.Yoda, not really substantiated), THEN it seems reasonable to believe that Obi-Wan must be the most powerful Jedi in the Order since he beat someone who beat someone who stalemated Mace Windu, etc. I realize SW debating isn't a den of objective logic, but at least movie to movie debates have the advantage of more direct comparisons and established hierarchies according to commentary, GL, etc. Simply dismissing Malgus out of hand and then using the Dooku < Anakin < Malgus argument is ignoring context brutally.

After all, padawan Obi-Wan overcame Darth Maul in a surprising twist of fate. Earlier in their battle, he also channeled his anger and disarmed Maul (who himself is a superior combatant any other day of the week) and if we argued padawan Obi-Wan only in the context of that one amazing scene, we'd lose grasp of how large the gap really is between those two fighters.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Suppressing Son and Daughter with TK is incredibly impressive when they are hailed as the most powerful beings in known space.

I will attempt to review this episode myself then. If it changes my opinion on Anakin's proficiency in the Force, I'll come back to the table with a new opinion. If it's chock full of major PIS or something else, then I'll trust you'll be reminded of it.



Simply being a Sith Warrior isn't the point here; it's that Malgus is the most distinguished Sith Warrior in combat, saving those who may sit on the Council. He's personally developed and lead attacks in war, actively maintains battle in the interest of the Empire, and goes out of his way to fight opponents to test his own mettle (Adraas, Aryn, etc.). This guy's philosophy is the only way to master the Force is to continually immerse yourself in its power, challenge yourself at every opportunity, and completely eschew politicking because it's beneath you. He's a consummate warrior in the very sense of the word, and he's got at the very least 28+ years of fighting a war, battling Jedi and other Sith, immersing himself in the Force, and building his own power.

His duels with Zen Vallow and Dao Cen Darach pretty well illustrate that he's a force to be reckoned with. His handling of Adraas was even more one-sided.



The gap between the Count and Anakin has always been well distinguished. Dooku has been known to literally dance around Anakin's blows, with Anakin only rarely faring well and usually through a liberal application of brute strength, not finesse. The point remains that Dooku's strength and mastery in the Force was on another level, and only by tapping his potential in one moment of surprising power and clarity was Anakin able to "win'. This is a far cry from a closer battle, such as Yoda versus Sidious, or Obi-Wan versus Anakin out of the zone.



Anakin going in the zone doesn't just involve "making him angry". if that were the case, Anakin would have never been defeated, because every time he's held back or miffed he gets mad. Hell, Anakin was "mad" when he charged Dooku in AotC in the hangar. How well did that work? Anakin was "mad" at Obi-Wan on Mustafar. How well did that work? It's true that Anakin can increase his strength and endurance, but his mental fortitude is weak; he's susceptible to being tricked or lead around the ring.

Point being, "Zone" mode is not a feasible argument here. If you argue certain characters as "at their very best ever ever ever as they were in that one moment due to whatever plot convenience demanded it", then fine. Hestizo Trace has a zombie flashback, moves forward faster than even Jedi can see and breaks Anakin's neck three times over. Really, let's be ridiculous with it. Nihilus' eats planets. Therefore, Nihilus eats all opponents because quite frankly how could he not? Oh, and his TK worked against a gravity well from the Mass Shadow Generator while not ripping apart the ship as well. This is well beyond most showings of TK. Therefore, Nihilus wins all fights by either TK or Force Drain, no exceptions.



Then your stance of "he's not as impressive as Dooku/anakin" isn't very sensible. It could be because you haven't really demonstrated any logic here, just "this is my opinion, I disagree with everything you said, also here's some haphazard reasoning". That episode you have listed may be your only saving grace, and if it is I'll be sure to come back here and talk about it.



So because Sith in general use Dun Moch, Malgus will? How's that sensible? Have you read anything with Malgus in it?



LOL.

No, that's just stupid logic right there. If all Form V practitioners beat all Form II practitioners all the time, then no one would practice Form II, "THE form of master duelists" as per the original Fightsaber article which created it. If you want to take RotS novelization's "kinectic blah blah" as ABSOLUTE, again, prepare to look silly.



Dooku -defeated- Anakin outright before the "ZONE" mode. He ragdolled Obi-Wan while at the same time backkicking Anakin like a rampant shopping cart come to clip his heel. If you want to take best showings as absolutes, Dooku was trouncing all over Anakin and simply chose to bait him on for more entertainment, which was in retrospect a bad move because suddenly Anakin got stronger for one split second which ended the fight. But prior to that, Dooku was holding off both combatants with relative ease.



Right, and Dooku, the elder more experienced Force user and duelist, has put Anakin on his ass many many more times. Generally, when arguing superiority over two separate forces, it helps to realize who is superior more often than not, not simply who was better for one second and forget all other evidence to the contrary.



Anakin showed a proficiency for battlefield tactics in Jedi Trial, yes. He's also shown that he allows his pride and emotion to rule his swordhand in many battles; against Dooku, against Obi-Wan, against Ventress. Anakin is not known for coldly evaluating his opponents in a duel and working to undo them by higher reasoning; he simply rages against them and hopes they cave.

Malgus, on the opposite end, is known to use both Rage and tactical thinking simultaneously. (Zallow, Aryn, Adraas for examples).



My point is that you apparently have no idea how Malgus operates. Go read Deceived for me and reconsider while I watch that episode for you.



You're talking about the Episode III video game? Oh yeah, that was truly canon.

Why wouldn't that be canon?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose


You're talking about the Episode III video game? Oh yeah, that was truly canon. According to Leland chee, it is, only certain parts of the game get retconned by the movie. For example in the game Dooku gets stabbed but in the movie he gets his head cut off.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Neph:


Actually, a lot of that was simply highlighting the error in his reasoning. IF it's logical to assume that Malgus can't beat Anakin because he is somehow inferior to Dooku (this assertion is simply put forth by M.Yoda, not really substantiated), THEN it seems reasonable to believe that Obi-Wan must be the most powerful Jedi in the Order since he beat someone who beat someone who stalemated Mace Windu, etc. I realize SW debating isn't a den of objective logic, but at least movie to movie debates have the advantage of more direct comparisons and established hierarchies according to commentary, GL, etc. Simply dismissing Malgus out of hand and then using the Dooku < Anakin < Malgus argument is ignoring context brutally.

After all, padawan Obi-Wan overcame Darth Maul in a surprising twist of fate. Earlier in their battle, he also channeled his anger and disarmed Maul (who himself is a superior combatant any other day of the week) and if we argued padawan Obi-Wan only in the context of that one amazing scene, we'd lose grasp of how large the gap really is between those two fighters.



I will attempt to review this episode myself then. If it changes my opinion on Anakin's proficiency in the Force, I'll come back to the table with a new opinion. If it's chock full of major PIS or something else, then I'll trust you'll be reminded of it.



Simply being a Sith Warrior isn't the point here; it's that Malgus is the most distinguished Sith Warrior in combat, saving those who may sit on the Council. He's personally developed and lead attacks in war, actively maintains battle in the interest of the Empire, and goes out of his way to fight opponents to test his own mettle (Adraas, Aryn, etc.). This guy's philosophy is the only way to master the Force is to continually immerse yourself in its power, challenge yourself at every opportunity, and completely eschew politicking because it's beneath you. He's a consummate warrior in the very sense of the word, and he's got at the very least 28+ years of fighting a war, battling Jedi and other Sith, immersing himself in the Force, and building his own power.

His duels with Zen Vallow and Dao Cen Darach pretty well illustrate that he's a force to be reckoned with. His handling of Adraas was even more one-sided.



The gap between the Count and Anakin has always been well distinguished. Dooku has been known to literally dance around Anakin's blows, with Anakin only rarely faring well and usually through a liberal application of brute strength, not finesse. The point remains that Dooku's strength and mastery in the Force was on another level, and only by tapping his potential in one moment of surprising power and clarity was Anakin able to "win'. This is a far cry from a closer battle, such as Yoda versus Sidious, or Obi-Wan versus Anakin out of the zone.



Anakin going in the zone doesn't just involve "making him angry". if that were the case, Anakin would have never been defeated, because every time he's held back or miffed he gets mad. Hell, Anakin was "mad" when he charged Dooku in AotC in the hangar. How well did that work? Anakin was "mad" at Obi-Wan on Mustafar. How well did that work? It's true that Anakin can increase his strength and endurance, but his mental fortitude is weak; he's susceptible to being tricked or lead around the ring.

Point being, "Zone" mode is not a feasible argument here. If you argue certain characters as "at their very best ever ever ever as they were in that one moment due to whatever plot convenience demanded it", then fine. Hestizo Trace has a zombie flashback, moves forward faster than even Jedi can see and breaks Anakin's neck three times over. Really, let's be ridiculous with it. Nihilus' eats planets. Therefore, Nihilus eats all opponents because quite frankly how could he not? Oh, and his TK worked against a gravity well from the Mass Shadow Generator while not ripping apart the ship as well. This is well beyond most showings of TK. Therefore, Nihilus wins all fights by either TK or Force Drain, no exceptions.



Then your stance of "he's not as impressive as Dooku/anakin" isn't very sensible. It could be because you haven't really demonstrated any logic here, just "this is my opinion, I disagree with everything you said, also here's some haphazard reasoning". That episode you have listed may be your only saving grace, and if it is I'll be sure to come back here and talk about it.



So because Sith in general use Dun Moch, Malgus will? How's that sensible? Have you read anything with Malgus in it?



LOL.

No, that's just stupid logic right there. If all Form V practitioners beat all Form II practitioners all the time, then no one would practice Form II, "THE form of master duelists" as per the original Fightsaber article which created it. If you want to take RotS novelization's "kinectic blah blah" as ABSOLUTE, again, prepare to look silly.



Dooku -defeated- Anakin outright before the "ZONE" mode. He ragdolled Obi-Wan while at the same time backkicking Anakin like a rampant shopping cart come to clip his heel. If you want to take best showings as absolutes, Dooku was trouncing all over Anakin and simply chose to bait him on for more entertainment, which was in retrospect a bad move because suddenly Anakin got stronger for one split second which ended the fight. But prior to that, Dooku was holding off both combatants with relative ease.



Right, and Dooku, the elder more experienced Force user and duelist, has put Anakin on his ass many many more times. Generally, when arguing superiority over two separate forces, it helps to realize who is superior more often than not, not simply who was better for one second and forget all other evidence to the contrary.



Anakin showed a proficiency for battlefield tactics in Jedi Trial, yes. He's also shown that he allows his pride and emotion to rule his swordhand in many battles; against Dooku, against Obi-Wan, against Ventress. Anakin is not known for coldly evaluating his opponents in a duel and working to undo them by higher reasoning; he simply rages against them and hopes they cave.

Malgus, on the opposite end, is known to use both Rage and tactical thinking simultaneously. (Zallow, Aryn, Adraas for examples).



My point is that you apparently have no idea how Malgus operates. Go read Deceived for me and reconsider while I watch that episode for you.



You're talking about the Episode III video game? Oh yeah, that was truly canon.
Here is my argument.
Anakin will lose to Malgus in a duel.
However if Anakin goes in the zone, it is over. Do you think that Malgus can defeat in the zone Skywalker? If not we have nothing to debate.

Originally posted by shinkoryu
According to Leland chee, it is, only certain parts of the game get retconned by the movie. For example in the game Dooku gets stabbed but in the movie he gets his head cut off.

When did Leland Chee say this about the Episode III game specifically? Otherwise, we have no reason to believe that a video game cutscene which depicts G-canon material is somehow equally or more valid, especially when said cutscene enjoys no mention elsewhere.



First, I've looked up the Mortis trilogy. Son manhandles Anakin and co. until Father kills himself and directly weakens and distracts Son, who Anakin then kills with his lightsaber. I'm not seeing any "proof" for your argument in that scenario.

Second, you've very deliberately ignored some important questions I had for you.

1. Have you read Deceived? This is the premier work involving Malgus and it has him fighting exactly three opponents. It also describes him at his peak (which none of the TOR videos do).

If you have not done so, you're arguing well out of your ass. I can admit to being unfamiliar with brand new Anakin content (mainly because I don't care enough to watch the cartoon just to find out more about a character I thought was stale in the first three movies) but for you to argue against Malgus and somehow remain deliberately ignorant of his primary battles is grounds for you having no argument.

2. If 1 is a 'yes', when did Malgus use Don Moch to the extent which say, Dooku did?

3. If 1 is a 'yes', what aspects of Malgus' fighting and his command of the Force simply cries out 'weaker than Anakin Skywalker'?

4. Can you answer any of the above without using some random absolute stance?

5. I've already addressed "Zone" Anakin. And I'll do it again in bold, for the terminally ignorant.

Anakin Skywalker's ability to go into the "Zone" and "Tap his uttermost potential" is PIS and cannot be assumed to be easily replicated in any or all versus matches, especially because in an overwhelming majority of his fights, even when mad, Anakin does not go "in the Zone". Therefore, because the exact conditions for this to occur are not predictable, provable, or sensible to apply to totally unrelated fighters (some of which have absolutely no history with Anakin), it is entirely ridiculous to assume that Anakin will ever go "in the Zone" for the fight.

And again, that's not even touching on HOW long he can sustain it should it occur, or whether or not his top potential would be enough.

So yeah, when you can answer those above and prove your argument, let me know.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
When did Leland Chee say this about the Episode III game specifically? Otherwise, we have no reason to believe that a video game cutscene which depicts G-canon material is somehow equally or more valid, especially when said cutscene enjoys no mention elsewhere.

SW data banks. He was asked if the game was canon and his response that it is C-canon material, only certain parts like the G-canon novel, that it gets retconned by the movie.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Anakin Skywalker's ability to go into the "Zone" and "Tap his uttermost potential" is PIS and cannot be assumed to be easily replicated in any or all versus matches, especially because in an overwhelming majority of his fights, even when mad, Anakin does not go "in the Zone". Therefore, because the exact conditions for this to occur are not predictable, provable, or sensible to apply to totally unrelated fighters (some of which have absolutely no history with Anakin), it is entirely ridiculous to assume that Anakin will ever go "in the Zone" for the fight.


I agree. Anakin will probably not enter "teh z0ne" in this fight. However, him entering the zone has nothing to do with PIS. In fact, it is CIS that prevents him from fighting like that consistently.

Originally posted by ares834
I agree. Anakin will probably not enter "teh z0ne" in this fight. However, him entering the zone has nothing to do with PIS. In fact, it is CIS that prevents him from fighting like that consistently. Anakin was as strong as he needed to be.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
First, I've looked up the Mortis trilogy. Son manhandles Anakin and co. until Father kills himself and directly weakens and distracts Son, who Anakin then kills with his lightsaber. I'm not seeing any "proof" for your argument in that scenario.
No it's in the arena when Son and Daughter are about to fight and Anakin subjugates them.


I have read quotes from Deceived.

I see some hypocrisy in these statements. I have read posts which directly quoted Malgus' duels. You on the other hand have just admitted to not watching the Clone Wars and yet you claim that I am "arguing out of my ass".
Malgus tortured Adraas and drew the duel out, torturing him with force lightning then moving on to kill him with his bear hands. His match with Ven Zallow was pretty much silent though.


PIS and CIS is that he wasn't in the zone for his other matches.
You aren't really arguing that Malgus can defeat Zonakin. You are arguing that ROTS no zone Anakin is weaker than Malgus which I agree with. My entire argument has been based on if Anakin goes in the zone Malgus dies.

^ And to be fair, ROTS Anakin was only in the 1 Lightsaber fight and he reached his Uber Level in that fight.

And all this talk of him not being capable of repeating his Uberness kind of goes out the window when we see how well CW Anakin has fought against Dooku (twice now)..

On the occasions he does not reach his Zone state, we already know why. The novel tells us, he's been taught to considerably hold back on his raw power.

So its out of his own choice, not because he's not capable of it, or he requires exact circumstances to reach that level.

Anakin's lightaber skill is of Dooku and Windu level. Obi-Wan, also, stated that he could compete with Yoda. So while Malgus is among the strongest, Anakin is among the top of the strongest.

About Obi-Wan I don't agree that he achieved Oneness with the Force during fight with Grivous. That Force spoke through him only means that he was guided by the force. He didn't have that white blue glow emanating from him. He hadn't done anything extraordinary in that fight either. Proper Jedi of Old Republic especially like Obi could never experience Oneness simply because of limitations of old teachings

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ And to be fair, ROTS Anakin was only in the 1 Lightsaber fight and he reached his Uber Level in that fight.

And all this talk of him not being capable of repeating his Uberness kind of goes out the window when we see how well CW Anakin has fought against Dooku (twice now)..

On the occasions he does not reach his Zone state, we already know why. The novel tells us, he's been taught to considerably hold back on his raw power.

So its out of his own choice, not because he's not capable of it, or he requires exact circumstances to reach that level.

Yes but each circumstance in which Dooku fought Anakin, he for some reason held back his force power. Rather than dispatching him with TK and lightning, he elected to engage him in battle in spite of Form II's weakness to Form II.
Anakin's lightsaber skills are not Dooku or Windu level. His raw power is on the otherhand is beyond them both, or at least beyond Dooku's. I feel like if Anakin fought Windu he would find himself in a different situation than when he fought Dooku.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Yes but each circumstance in which Dooku fought Anakin, he for some reason held back his force power. Rather than dispatching him with TK and lightning, he elected to engage him in battle in spite of Form II's weakness to Form II.

Maybe you haven't seen the latest fight yet. Dooku's force powers were all that kept Anakin from finishing him off.


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Anakin's lightsaber skills are not Dooku or Windu level. His raw power is on the otherhand is beyond them both, or at least beyond Dooku's. I feel like if Anakin fought Windu he would find himself in a different situation than when he fought Dooku.

I think you're confusing me with another poster. But I personally would not underestimate ROTS Anakin's Saber skills. Though not on par with Windu or Dooku, he seems to have mastered his chosen form, and well versed in other forms too. So I doubt skill would be a deciding factor.

Originally posted by ME

And all this talk of him not being capable of repeating his Uberness kind of goes out the window when we see how well CW Anakin has fought against Dooku (twice now)..



Make that Thrice

Anakin's lightsaber skills are not Dooku or Windu level. His raw power is on the otherhand is beyond them both, or at least beyond Dooku's. I feel like if Anakin fought Windu he would find himself in a different situation than when he fought Dooku.

According to your logic during 13 years after TFM Anakin was eating chicken and chips on a sofa, while watching holo-drama.
Most of his training he spent actively participating in war, where he not only faced impossible odds but fought with Dooku and Ventress on numerous occasions. It was plenty of time to become expert with lightsaber and in the Force. In real life doing martial arts I needed only 1 year of training to compete with black belts on equal terms.

Unless we talk about Luke you can't be one sided, when comparing between strongest Jedi. Fight is never one sided. There are always random elements, perfectly or badly executed techniques, cunning, positional advantages, changing emotional state, mistakes and even simple luck.

Even not mentioning that Palpatine most likely was toying with Windu to turn Anakin, after being kicked surely Sith of his caliber could roll backward and continue fighting. I am no Jedi and could do that.
My opinion is that Anakin would best Windu but I wrote "on level" because as I said: Fight is never one sided. Anakin was dominating whole fight with Obi and yet he lost. And ye, even almighty Luke was loosing fights in his prime.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda

Anakin's lightsaber skills are not Dooku or Windu level. His raw power is on the otherhand is beyond them both, or at least beyond Dooku's. I feel like if Anakin fought Windu he would find himself in a different situation than when he fought Dooku.

Anakin's raw power is beyond any other Jedi or Sith.

Originally posted by Arhael


Even not mentioning that Palpatine most likely was toying with Windu to turn Anakin, after being kicked surely Sith of his caliber could roll backward and continue fighting. I am no Jedi and could do that.


Nah he was on his ass, with a lightsaber pointed at him point blank.

There was nothing he could have done at that point save the Force Lightning.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Nah he was on his ass, with a lightsaber pointed at him point blank.

There was nothing he could have done at that point save the Force Lightning. How about Force push? It's all opinions really.

Personally, I find it strange that towards the end of that short fight Palpatine became so slow and looked so exhausted, and non-force augmented kick made him fall like a grandpa with radiculitis and drop lightsaber.

When Anakin and Obi fought, they kicked, they disarmed each other and yet they kept fighting on and on.

From the Book of Sith, "Malgus submitted utterly to the dark side, and doing so made him an exemplary warrior. His battlefield feats have never been duplicated."

That's directly from Palpatine.

Also he could apparently use a lesser version of Force Storm, the wormhole version, called Force maelstrom " which creates an invulnerable energy sphere to block incoming attacks while bombarding enemies with debris and electrifying them with bolts of lightning." Palpatine has also "perfected" this technique.


As for the Mortis beings both the Son and Daughter are worshiped as gods by the nightsisters.

Is it worth getting this book?

I'd wait for just the book. The holocron, while cool, isn't worth the extra $40.

But the book itself is excellent.

Any other badass insights?

@ ares834

Thanks for the information. Malgus' critics will be shocked.

There are some other cool powers mentioned throughout the book. Like one ability, cyrokinesis, which allows a force user to remove heat from a living being which freezes them.

While not bad ass, force sever is supposedly a lesser form of midichlorian manipulation. Muur did not create his talisman a different exile named Sorzus Syn did. There is also lots of info on how the Nightsisters' powers work.

Any information on Revan in the book?

Not really. Bane mentions him once saying the Drain Life technique is found in his holocron.

Ok. Thanks.

This confirms that Revan knows this technique.

Originally posted by Arhael
How about Force push?

Yep that should have been possible.



Originally posted by Arhael
Personally, I find it strange that towards the end of that short fight Palpatine became so slow and looked so exhausted, and non-force augmented kick made him fall like a grandpa with radiculitis and drop lightsaber.

When Anakin and Obi fought, they kicked, they disarmed each other and yet they kept fighting on and on.

Not really. I dnt see the old guys like Palpatine, Yoda and Dooku having the same stamina as the much younger Anakin and Obi-Wan.

The AOTC novel even calls Yoda exhausted after his short duel with Dooku.

They are more powerful of course (unless we're talking about Zone Anakin) but that doesnt mean they have the same stamina. Sidious rarely uses his stamina anyway. Rarely even uses a lightsaber. He's more of a "Il flick my hands and cause lightning and storms" kind of guy.

High praise indeed, but before anyone leaps to take it as ironclad proof of Malgus's elite combat abilities, a rigid interpretation of that quote would require his powers and skills surpass Vitiate's own. Or you could interpret it that Malgus's specific feats have never been duplicated, but yet may have been surpassed.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yep that should have been possible.

Not really. I dnt see the old guys like Palpatine, Yoda and Dooku having the same stamina as the much younger Anakin and Obi-Wan.

The AOTC novel even calls Yoda exhausted after his short duel with Dooku.

They are more powerful of course (unless we're talking about Zone Anakin) but that doesnt mean they have the same stamina. Sidious rarely uses his stamina anyway. Rarely even uses a lightsaber. He's more of a "Il flick my hands and cause lightning and storms" kind of guy.

Good point about stamina but still, when Yoda immersed himself in the Force, he bacame young again.

I have a few more theories. My opinion is that Palpatine managed to kill three masters so easily not just because of his uber saber skill. As Sith he was master of exploiting enemy's fears and doubts. Those masters simply weren't ready to face a Sith Lord and Palpatine used their fear to numb their movements. Just like in Dark Nest, when Lomi Plo used Luke's fear for lives of Mara and Jasen to freeze him in place completely and it was Luke in his prime.

No matter how powerful Palpatine was, as any Sith he was coward. He felt Windu's determination and self-control and couldn't expose his emotions and as result he got scared himself even more.

With Yoda situation was different. Turning Anakin to darkside, issuing Order 66 and achieving what no other Sith could gave him exhilaration of victory making him much stronger.

About Palpatine rarely using lightsaber is not entirely true. He started heavily abusing Force only after establishing Empire. He increased his power so much that his body couldn't contain it and started failing.

^ As far as I know Palpatine had not touched his lightsaber for about 10 years when it came to the time of ROTS. I think other posters on these boards have previously posted evidence of this. Might be from the ROTS novel.

As for why Mace could challenge Sidious whilst the other Jedi could not.. Lucas was asked about this and he responded: "You have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emporer. Anakin could have defeated the Emporer had he not got all beat up." (Making of ROTS). So only those people could possibly have competed with Sidious, no one else.

As for Yoda immersing himself in the Force to become young again.. Dooku does a similar technique every time he got tired against Anakin and Obi-Wan, but it was dependant on his Force reserves.

Thats why Anakin has such good stamina, because he basically has an unlimited amount of Force reserves to draw from. Of course Yoda will have a decent amount of Force reserves to draw from as well.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ As far as I know Palpatine had not touched his lightsaber for about 10 years when it came to the time of ROTS. I think other posters on these boards have previously posted evidence of this. Might be from the ROTS novel.
I actually don't know about Palpatine before RotS, I made an assumption since he trained Maul. Logically to fight Yoda on equal terms he obviously should have had some practice.

Are there actually situations in novels, where Anakin got exhausted from using too much Force?

Originally posted by Arhael
I actually don't know about Palpatine before RotS, I made an assumption since he trained Maul. Logically to fight Yoda on equal terms he obviously should have had some practice.

Are there actually situations in novels, where Anakin got exhausted from using too much Force?

As far as I know He did used to train with his Saber at the time Maul was his apprentice, and he wasn't too busy being Supreme Chancellor and instigating a Galactic civil war. But that was all 10-13years pre-ROTS.

Anakin doesnt get tired. He actually gets stronger as the fight goes on, due to his virtual limitless Force reserves to draw from.

This is a Slaughter in favor of Anakin

Anakin breaks him into little pieces.