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Plagueis obviously from the new book, Sidious is from the OT, Bane has his Orbalisk armor, Zannah is from DoE (basically all their strongest incarnations except the haxxed DE Sids).

They fight on Ambria.

Bane with Orbalisks is a force of nature. I give it to the founders of the order.

Yes, I think so too.

Bitches, at least vote. >:C

although, tbh, some of the stuff posted about Plagueis (sp?) is damn impressive

Yeah, he does seem to be quite the beast. I'm unsure if this retroactively makes Sidious more powerful or just makes it seem like he was talking out of his ass when he said he'd surpassed Plagueis.

Anyway, anyone care to decide now?

Team Bane.

Besides, Sidious killed Plagueis in his (Plagueis') sleep, so he wouldn't know for sure he'd surpassed him.

Well, no. It's said specifically Palpatine only killed him when he DID surpass him.

Plagueis and Sidious dominate this. Not even close.

Hell, with his Midichlorian control, Plagueis might even solo

I mean, seriously: Plagueis has fully knowledge on Bane. Killing him is the easiest thing ever: All he does is kill the orbalisk coat by shutting down their midichlorians.

Orbalisks die and release their poison into Bane, taking him out instantly. That leaves Zannah alone against Plagueis who has shown he can handle skilled duelists and is himself a master of the form, with superior strength, speed and skill. Not to mention far better force power.

Her sorcery isn't even a factor here. He's far too strong for that

At the moment we're all contemplating the issue Plagueis' mastery of the midichlorians creates. As of yet I've seen nothing to suggest that the technique is unblockable by conventional means in the same way that theres evidence that Trayas GigaDrain is. The only person Plagueis demonstrated the ability on is a non-force sensitive. All I've heard is some speculation from Gideon giving his opinion on the matter.

So I don't see how it'll be the easiest thing ever.

What's the issue? The Orbalisks have no defense against it whatsoever.

It also brushes over the fact that Plagueis invented the technique and thus his opponents have no knowledge nor defense against it. Especially when Bane wouldn't know when his orbalisks were being attacked from it.

Oh, and it's entirely possible to block being drained by the force as we've seen in the Bane trilogy

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I mean, seriously: Plagueis has fully knowledge on Bane. Killing him is the easiest thing ever: All he does is kill the orbalisk coat by shutting down their midichlorians.
This is quite humorous. Apparently Plagueis' technique is universal and there is no defense (despite the lack of knowledge on it). Also, I guess Krayt defeats all the other sith before him because he has "full knowledge" of them.


Nothing indicates he can break her defenses.


This unsupported assumption is based on??

Originally posted by Lightsnake
What's the issue? The Orbalisks have no defense against it whatsoever.

I wasn't suggesting that Orbalisks would be blocking it, but rather that Bane would.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It also brushes over the fact that Plagueis invented the technique and thus his opponents have no knowledge nor defense against it.

This is what I was referring to. The idea that theres no way to defend against the technique is one that is currently unsupported imo.



Because Bane doesn't have Force-senses or precognition?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, and it's entirely possible to block being drained by the force as we've seen in the Bane trilogy

Correct.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I wasn't suggesting that Orbalisks would be blocking it, but rather that Bane would.

And he'll do that how?



Okay. Show me a defense. I'll wait



Not like he was blindsided multiple times, even in the series that was the literary equivalent of jacking him off. By Umbaran assassins, Farfalla nailed him with force stasis, by the Huntress in book 3, by Zannah's sorcery..

He blocks this attack how? It's an attack not directed at Bane, that there's no evidence he can detect (he doesn't have anything resembling Plagueis's senses and no demonstrated senses on the level of sensing midichlorians in a being, let alone attacks on them

It is an attack Bane has no idea of, is far, far more precise than anything he has ever done, has no known defense, and wouldn't even be against Bane himself.

You'd think Luceno couldn't have made it any clearer Plagueis stood at a level beyond his predecessors



So puts a hole in the "Unblockable giga drain" silliness.

Using this logic, Zannah would wtfpwn Plagueis with her sorcery because he doesn't have the power for it. Or is this another one of your double standard arguments?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Using this logic, Zannah would wtfpwn Plagueis with her sorcery because he doesn't have the power for it. Or is this another one of your double standard arguments?

Plagueis knows all about sorcery and it is directly stated it's not beyond him.

We've seen sorcery resisted by someone who had zero talent of the art, and Plagueis directly says if there's a Sith more powerful than him, he hasn't heard of them. And he knows of Kun, Nihilus, Ragnos, Vitiate, Bane, Zannah, Cognus, etc. The back of the book even proclaims him as the most powerful who ever lived.

I mean, Plagueis kills Bane with zero effort. All he has to do is shut down his orbalisk quote and Bane is a twitching, poisoned wreck while Plagueis crushes Zannah with superior physical abilities. Limit to a saber fight and he'd probably still beat her anyways. Give him force abilities and she's even more screwed. Zannah hasn't shown she can survive him. She couldn't hang with Bane in saber combat (Or Sarro Xaj. She would've been screwed if not for Johun Othone several times) and Plagueis's physical abilities are superior.

Zannah's sorcery has been directly countered. On page. Set Harth survived it and clawed his way out several days later. An actual Dark Lord busted free in short order. Krayt broke it from Wyyrlok (who was a superior practitioner to Zannah, given he could multitask with it)

Originally posted by Lightsnake
]Cute.
Except...Plagueis uses a technique only he and Palpatine knew. One Bane has zero knowledge of. Plagueis has the means to defeat Bane and the knowledge. Combine them?

Plagueis needs two things:
1. Knowledge on the orbalisks
2. The ability to kill them.

If this technique was somehow relevant to combat situations, Sidious would have used it multiple times throughout the movies.




So was Zannah's, what makes his feat more impressive than hers? Yoda mastered all 7 forms yet was unable to defeat Sidious.




If Bane couldn't overcome the tendrils, there's nothing suggesting Plagueis can.


Great! We get an insight on his thoughts. Explain their relevance.


Dear lord, explain the relevance of this.


No it hasn't. Bane could do nothing against the tendrils.

I didn't say that. I said that it could go either way.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
If this technique was somehow relevant to combat situations, Sidious would have used it multiple times throughout the movies.


Palpatine isn't confirmed to have mastered it to Plagueis's extent with regards to this. Unlike him, Plagueis has shown willingness to use it when he wants to kill someone as well. Plus, Plagueis absolutely despises, long drawn out battles. He's shown to kill without pleasure, without fanfare, and as quickly as possible. Palpatine, as Plagueis says, has the bloodlust of a serial killer who much prefers drawing things out. Unless you want to say Kit Fisto could have resisted it, of course...




Yoda only used Ataru in actual combat as far as I recall, just like Dooku used Makashi.
Zannah's guard wasn't impenetrable. Sarro Xaj and Bane had her beat in direct saber combat. She only survived in the first instance because Johun kept getting in the way and he was a horrible duelist.
I doubt Zannah can outlast him. The second he realizes her style of fighting, he'll just do what he did with Venamis and let her go on the offensive






What prevents him from baking Zannah in Force Lightning while she's using it? Or snapping his fingers and rupturing the vessels in her brain?
Zannah is incapable of defense while using that technique.
And Bane's attempt to overcome them equated to trying to destroy them without force powers.



So the tiny little fact of Plagueis literally overcoming the will of the Force at a point where it might have killed him and Palpatine for what they were doing by sheer power is just irrelevant

Plagueis and Palpatine had the will to throw the force out of whack and resist its attempts to stop them, and Zannah's breakable spell will solo them both?



Show me Bane trying a defense



Bane ends up a twitching, sobbing wreck from the poison in his veins in a split second if Plagueis gets his way. Zannah won't use the tendrils first, and if she does, what stops Palpatine or Plagueis from killing her with the force when she's not capable of defense?

Never mind if she engages either in saber combat, she is screwed

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And he'll do that how?

A conventional Force Shield perhaps?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Okay. Show me a defense. I'll wait.

I don't see why you think a specialised defence is necessary.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Not like he was blindsided multiple times, even in the series that was the literary equivalent of jacking him off. By Umbaran assassins,

Bane was meditating, the Umbaran Assassins specialise in, well, assassination and Bane did sense them.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Farfalla nailed him with force stasis, by the Huntress in book 3, by Zannah's sorcery..

Obviously Banes Force senses are not perfect any more any Force Users are. You don't see me citing Palpatine as being taken off-gaurd by Vader as proof that Bane could snap his neck in an instant. I could list hundreds of examples of Force Users failing to detect something in the Force. That doesn't mean that they do not have those senses. We might as well argue that all Force Users will fail to detect attacks. Is that what you want us to do?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
He blocks this attack how?

I've seen no evidence that conventional means would be inadequate.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It's an attack not directed at Bane, that there's no evidence he can detect (he doesn't have anything resembling Plagueis's senses and no demonstrated senses on the level of sensing midichlorians in a being, let alone attacks on them

Its an attack that will directly cause Banes death, so his danger sense should pick it up. Using the Force on an object to cause harm to your opponent is hardly new in Star Wars, and hardly undetectable. Its really no different than Ventress throwing tree limbs at Anakin.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It is an attack Bane has no idea of, is far, far more precise than anything he has ever done, has no known defense, and wouldn't even be against Bane himself.

I doubt thats entirely accurate in regards to the precision. Remember that Bane was manipulating sub-atomic particles at one point.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
You'd think Luceno couldn't have made it any clearer Plagueis stood at a level beyond his predecessors

Plenty of writers try to make their creations 'teh most powerfullest evar'. This forum exists partially to determine whether thats accurate or not.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
So puts a hole in the "Unblockable giga drain" silliness.

No it doesn't. As I've explained on more than one occasion the 'Giga Drain' does not behave like a conventional drain and can be seen more as a severance between life and the Force than an actual drain in any rate.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Plagueis knows all about sorcery and it is directly stated it's not beyond him.

And its also stated that Plagueis has little real talent for sorcery:

"From the start Tenebrous had told him that he lacked the talent for Sith sorcery, even though the inability hadn't owed to adeficiency of midi-chlorians. It's an innate gift, the Bith would say when pressed, and one that he had lacked, as well." (pg. 278)

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Plagueis's ability to kill through midichlorians has never been blocked by anyone. Zannah's sorcery has been defeated before.

I think thats more because Plagueis has never actually used the ability on anyone of note, rather than a pre-supposed 'l33tness' of the skill.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Zannah's sorcery has been directly countered. On page. Set Harth survived it and clawed his way out several days later. An actual Dark Lord busted free in short order. Krayt broke it from Wyyrlok (who was a superior practitioner to Zannah, given he could multitask with it)

Remember, this thread takes place on Ambria. Tentacle Rape is a option here.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I doubt thats entirely accurate in regards to the precision. Remember that Bane was manipulating sub-atomic particles at one point.



Nephthys gets it.

DONTBELIEVEHISLIES

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Right, a force shield...despite that fact that won't do shit against against an internal attack? It generates no energy at all, and Bane has no idea to put one on.

Hell, he thinks he's invincible. And it's not even an attack. Plagueis simply instructs the midichlorians to return to the force.

Proof that it won't do shit against an internal attack?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Please. A shield's never even shown itself able to block a force choke, that takes a different ability. Plagueis doesn't throw energy, he speaks to your midichlorians and controls them. How does a force shield block that? Does putting a shield around an animal prevent the force user from controlling it?

Has anyone ever actually tried to use a shield to block a Force Choke and failed? On the subject of controlling the animal, again, has anyone ever actually tried and failed?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, right, he sensed them just before they attacked and got fried at first anyways.
And Bane was meditating. A state that should enhance his perceptions unless he's in battle meditation or something.

Not because he failed to sense them, but because he let them hit him because he thought his Orbalisks could tank the blows.

No it wouldn't. Its specifically mentioned that Bane was focusing introspectively and wasn't paying much attention to his surroundings.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Because he was focused on Luke and Battle meditation for his fleet, maybe?
Bane's failed perceiving things in the heat of battle with the people he's fighting

And Plagueis was almost killed by Malidian assassins. And then killed his ****ing sleep. ****ing Luke Skywalker has failed to percieve things in the heart of battle. Nearly all characters do. Sidious sure as shit looked surprised when Yoda punted him over his desk.


Originally posted by Lightsnake
Okay. So why can Bane perceive this? I'll wait. Plagueis trained and experimented for decades.
You have to face up to one fact: There's no evidence Bane can do what you say. He has not had the specialized training to detect midichlorians.

Because he has extra-sensory perception that would conceivably allow him to do so.

I never claimed that he did. And you've failed to prove why he would need to be able to do so.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Probably because you're not making an argument. Show me proof conventional means will work. Show me proof Bane can use them to block it.

No

You made the claim that the technique is unblockable, you prove that they are. Until you have something better than base speculation, I'm not willing to indulge your claims much further.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Especially as there's no attack. Plagueis is simply telling his midichlorians to do something.

As I asked Gideon when he tried to make the same argument, what is the difference between 'attacking' and 'manipulating' someone and why would a Force Shield block the former but be completely ineffective against the latter?


Originally posted by Lightsnake
Like it picked up Zannah's dark side tendrils (no, Bane had to DEDUCE that), Johun's slash at his wrist, Farfalla's stasis field...

There's no evidence this technique is blockable or even detectable unless you know what to look for. Can Bane feel something affecting the midichlorians of other beings?
No, there's no proof he can detect that far in. Plagueis is the only one to his point who's demonstrated that. Because it took him specialized training of decades

You're the one who has no proof to his claims, not me.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, right. Because we've seen Force Users detect everything. Please, Force users have trouble detecting the use of Morichro and Malacia when it's used on them. Bane's great senses didn't scream at him about Kas'im's extra trick up his sleeve, about Zannah's attacks...he's failed constantly.

And you expect me to believe Bane can, with no evidence, detect and block a technique he has no knowledge of, when it's applied to something else? Plagueis only needs to kill one orbalisk.

If thats the way you want to play it then Bane snaps Plagueis' neck in the first microsecond as Plagueis fails to detect the attack. Because apparantly thats how we debate now. Jedi can't detect shit and can't block shit.

Danger sense only reacts to actual dangers and threats, Kas'im pulling out a second lightsaber is neither and I don't recall Bane failing to detect Zannah's attacks but then he was in incredible pain and extremely focussed on getting to her at the time.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, sub-atomic particles, which is basic knowledge for Holocron manipulation and usage

When did I say that wasn't the case? In fact how is that relevent at all? You mentioned precision and I cited Banes manipulations of things far smaller than midichlorians as evidence.

Also, proof that this is the case?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Manipulation of midichlorians is a discipline so much more advanced and intricate it doesn't even compare. It's like saying someone lifted a rock with the force so they can move a starship.

Certainly more advanced but not necessarily more intricate. IIRC midichlorians are merely 'micro-organisms that reside in living cells', so I find it likely that midichlorians are above sub-atomic size. I believe Plagueis' mastery over the midichlorians was creditted to him having a special attunement to them rather than merely being much more advanced and precise than all of the other Sith who came before him, correct?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Never mind Bane would have to sense his manipulations in the orbalisks and himself

No he wouldn't. This is ridiculous logic. One does not need to perfectly replicate something in order to defend against it. I don't need to see a blast of air to hide from it behind a wall.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Except Luceno isn't Plagueis's creator, nor did he have nearly the same leeway.

Irrelevent. He's the writer who had the job of creating the character of Plagueis, who had hitherto been just a name.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
All you're doing is throwing around terrible arguments and claims with zero proof "But maybe it cna be blocked"
"Prove it."
"I can't."

Okay, that was easy, wasn't it?

"Bane will sense it."
"He didn't sense far less complicated techniques and hasn't demonstrated the ability to sense midichlorians in a being to a point this intricate."
"Uhhh....but Bane rocks."

That's the sum of it.

Actually its more like this:

'Plagueis can kill Bane easily with his midichlorian technique.'

'Prove that please.'

'Nope! You prove that he can't!'

'Thats what we call the fallacy Argument from Ignorance. You're assuming that because no defence against the technique is mentioned that none exists. Even though theres absolutely no supporting evidence of that whatsoever.'

'No U!'

Thats how I would summerise it. Mines more accurate because in actuality you did make the first claim and then failed to prove any supporting evidence for said claim when I asked you for it.

Lol. I wouldn't keep posting unless you want to be drawn into an incoherent, neverending debate.

I've had lots of practise with LeGeND.

Yea but legend stops at a certain point..

So this is why Neph so staunchly opposes midi-chlorian manipulation.

Chronolgically I opposed it before Lightsnake bumped the thread actually.

I'm aware, but your resistance has doubled.
Are you suggesting, by the way, that Bane's sub-atomic perceptions would enable him to perceive midi-chlorians and/or Plagueis's communication with them?

No.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Proof that it won't do shit against an internal attack?

A force shield is a creation of energy with the force that blocks an actual attack incoming at you that is physical.
You're making a grave error believing Plagueis is even using a conventional attack, too. He's not. He's speaking to Bane's midichlorians. A force shield won't stop that, why would it?




Nobody has ever tried and failed, no. Luke, however, states that the way to block it is countering the telekinesis with his own when Sedriss and Goir used it on Kam Solusar in Dark Empire 2 Luke, btw, had used a force shield to block blasts from an AT AT blast.



Very well, admitted.




Yeah, how many at once again? He was fighting an army of powerful opponents there. As I recall...how many Doan assassins nearly took out Bane? With the Huntress?



By Palpatine? Plagueis credits Palpatine with the greatest skill in subterfuge and masking himself than any other Sith ever


And? He's got a much better track record than Bane.



Palpatine underestimated Yoda. He realized how wrong he was to do so early.

Now, there's a reason your argument here is incorrect: You're relying on several false premises. Bane has shown nothing to indicate he can perceive midichlorians, or their being affected with the Force. True or false? He has not shown the control over things like midichlorians, true or false?


Because he has extra-sensory perception that would conceivably allow him to do so.

No. Bane has failed to perceive things at a far, far larger scale. You say he can manipulate things at a sub-atomic level? Okay, so can any force user who makes a Holocron.

And you should acknowledge this while we're at it: Plagueis trained decades to master the sensory abilities necessary to perceive and manipulate Midichlorians. In fact, Tenebrous says:
"To detect this infinitesimal percentage would require the precision of a Bith." Plagueis had to train it himself with his own technique.



To perceive the effects on his midichlorians, perhaps?




Hey, maybe you should check a bit: YOU claimed at first Bane could block it.
Start proving up, thanks.




Because, maybe you simply don't get this, it's not a physical attack. It's not a rush of energy. It's telepathy to his midichlorians. It's ordering them.

Pushing you off a cliff is a physical assault. Talking you into jumping off is not





In The Tenebrous Way, when Plagueis's examination of Tenebrous ended, Plagueis couldn't send Tenebrous midichlorians moving into his body.

Inform me: Where is your proof Bane can detect it? Or that it's blockable?




I am using the point that Plagueis can use a method to kill:
That is beyond Bane's sensory perception
That has no demonstrated method of being stopped
That Bane has not shown he can block this directed at other beings.

Furthermore, damaging your point is Zannah was capable of using a Sith spell on Bane regardless of any force shields he brought up.


Plagueis certainly can deflect attacks, as he's demonstrated the pre requisites to do so.



Right, in incredible pain when he had the upper hand? And you'd think the force might warn him Kas'im wasn't done when he was gloating.




Inform me: What ever said midichlorians are larger than atoms?

I've also provided evidence from The Tenebrous way that Plagueis trained decades to study midichlorians specifically.


That's how Bane was making his Sith Holocron, was it not? Or is it unique to him?

Oh, and here's a quote:
Each holocron matrix had to meet stringent specifications, usually requiring thousands of precise alterations and adjustments on a subatomic level. Only through the power of the Force could one ensure that each crystalline strand was properly aligned.





Oh, so you have no proof and only your suspicions?

No, you're incorrect. Plagueis trained for decades for them.
And it's said Plagueis has no record of a Sith of even equal power to him previously.




Hiding isn't defending.
In order to defend agains tthis, Bane would have to manipulate his midichlorians to not shut down on him. AND the midichlorian sof the orbalisks themselves




Except a good deal of Plagueis had been revealed prior. This isn't Karpyshyn where he was givne carte blanche on Bane.




Actually, the argument goes asuch:
I make the claim Plagueis can kill Bane easily because of his midi technique
You ask why
I say it's because Plagueis has demonstrated he can shut down the midichlorians of either Bane or his midichlorians. Your recourse has been to claim Bane can block it or defend. I am challenging this and saying it has no proof.





No, you're being foolish enough to claim Bane can block it off and you're saying "but nothing says there's no defense!" The force will just warn Bane he's in danger, even though he hasn't shown he can do anything against it. You've laughably relied on a force shield as a defense to Plagueis chatting with his midichlorians



So why are you debating?



Bnae had no mastery, and he could manage against it.


Are you suggesting Bane can hold two more powerful Sith off? Palpatine alone is better than Bane in pretty much everything.

Here's how the fight goes:

Zannah tries this, Plagueis simply initiates his midichlorian shut down on both opponents. He uses it on Bane's orbalisks, killing them instantly.

As it is a stated fact from the Tenebrous way that Plagueis only achieved these perception abilities through decades of study and it is an original technique that induces death, the only thing you have is the potential for Bane to possiblyb sense it

Oh, wait, except Bane won't be able to because the presence of Palpatine and Plagueis will be clouding the force and their intentions, because that's another ability they have.

And since he can't sense their intentions with them shrouded by the Dark Side (Oh, and last I checked: Cognus, before any formal training, one upped him because she clouded herself from him as well. On nothing but instinct.) Palpatine was capable of masking his intentions to Plagueis, as well as even the mightiest Jedi in history to that point. Plagueis could do the same thing, why would he be able to perceive and stop this?

Even if he can, by the time they've initiated it, what can he do against it? He lacks the perception abilities to understand what's happening. Nothing shows he'll be alert to something happening to his midichlorians or the midichlorians of his ORBALISKS.

One dies. One. and he's done for. Plagueis can handle him while Palpatine absolutely butchers Zannah

And do shut up, DS

It's tough to shut up with so much rationalizing and reaching.

I love how I'm the one using a technique Plagueis has actually shown while Neph is twisting himself in knots trying to prove Bane can perceive midichlorian manipulation and stop it and I'm the one who's reaching.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I love how I'm the one using a technique Plagueis has actually shown while Neph is twisting himself in knots trying to prove Bane can perceive midichlorian manipulation and stop it and I'm the one who's reaching.

He used it on a non-force sensitive and he didn't even kill him right away with it and yet you're claiming that he can kill Bane instantly and without any hope of a defence. Hell yeah I call bullshit.

How about you actually post the quote of him using it? Then we can actually get somewhere.

He drew Veruna's death out intentionally. and if not Veruna, what prevents the orbalisk from dying straight off? It would, no matter what, remove Bane's strength, mobility and technique as well quite quickly.Imagine Plagueis doing then and then Palpatine cooking him with lightning.

All Plagueis needs is to kill a single orbalisk and that's it as well

So because he doesn't kill someone quickly that proves that he can kill someone quickly? Haha, no. Prove how quickly Plagueis can fatally manipulate the midichlorians.

I'm waiting for you to provide quotes of Plagueis using the technique.

He uses the technique to kill once and, as I explained to you elsewhere, the only description the text provides for it is Plagueis's own words.

Respectfully, you're not being fair to Zannah. Do you really think her Force barriers won't mitigate Plagueis's Force wave?

Zannah did block the planet-wide Force Storm Bane unleashed in PoD when she was only 12-ish I recall.

Are you referring to the Thought Bomb?

Darovit, Kiel Charny, Bug, Githany and a lot of bouncers survived that, too. Impressive? Sure. Enough to survive concentrated power from a far stronger Sith? Especially when you consider that any focus on sorcery leaves her incapable of defending?

Oh, and Darth Azard uses this attack to guard from a massive explosion as well.

Originally posted by CityOfHope
Are you referring to the Thought Bomb?

No, the ritual Bane does that creates a massive firestorm.


Originally posted by Lightsnake
Darovit, Kiel Charny, Bug, Githany and a lot of bouncers survived that, too. Impressive? Sure. Enough to survive concentrated power from a far stronger Sith? Especially when you consider that any focus on sorcery leaves her incapable of defending?

Oh, and Darth Azard uses this attack to guard from a massive explosion as well.

She actually blocked it though, and shes an untrained 12 year old. Quite impressive for something done on instinct.

What attack are you talking about?

Yeah, so did the others. they were right in the path of the conflagration to boot.

And I meant defense. Again, this doesn't begin to compare to the power Plagueis would sling concentrated at her. Consider that we see the corpses of people hit by the storm after. They're intact whereas Plagueis can all but atomize someone with his force waves.

While it is undoubtedly impressive, didn't Bane breach Zannah's shield during their struggles?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yeah, so did the others. they were right in the path of the conflagration to boot.

And I meant defense. Again, this doesn't begin to compare to the power Plagueis would sling concentrated at her. Consider that we see the corpses of people hit by the storm after. They're intact whereas Plagueis can all but atomize someone with his force waves.

Unless the Zannah in this thread is 12 I don't see how thats a fair comparison.

I was using that as an example of Zannahs power even at that young an age and with no training whatsoever. Nothing more.

You're saying that Zannah will block a stronger attack fully concentrated upon her from a more powerful Sith Lord, possibly when she is incapable of defense?

Of course thats what I'm saying. Nice of you to notice.

I'm not sure what you're saying, tbh. Zannah's resistance of the storm is impressive, but since I'm pretty sure her defenses were breached even when she was older, trained, and exponentially more powerful as a combatant, I don't see how it functions as evidence to conclude she could resist Plagueis's Force wave.

I only brought it up to support your point you *******.

The difference between the assassins and Zannah is that the latter is known to be Force-sensitive whereas the former are not. She could potentially offer resistance whereas they couldn't. So I'm not convinced that his wave is guaranteed to smash through. On the other hand, I'm not convinced she's capable of stopping it. I agree with Lightsnake that Plagueis is her superior.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/000/554/facepalm.jpg

Lightsnake's argument that Plagueis could manipulate the midichlorians of an orbalisk to die is actually pretty clever and certainly feasible. Amusing to think that, here, they might be more of a liability than an asset.

You stated that he needs some level of concentration to do that. How does that fare in a saber duel with Bane? Or when he's getting chewed out via sith sorcery?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
You stated that he needs some level of concentration to do that. How does that fare in a saber duel with Bane? Or when he's getting chewed out via sith sorcery?

Where did I say that? He does have to concentrate early in the book to perceive midi-chlorians; Veruna's death occurs near the end and it's an entirely different game. Plagueis is prolonging the process and walking around and talking to his victim all the while.

Oh the other forum. I'm really not sure how any of this is relevant to an intense fight, much less the hyperbole. I can't accurately dictate revan's superiority over character X because he's the heart of the force.

I'm not sure what Revan being called the heart of the Force has to do with Plagueis manipulating midichlorians.

No, the other thing about them keeping the force unbalanced.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
No, the other thing about them keeping the force unbalanced.

As Ares already explained, it has no real applicability in combat.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
A force shield is a creation of energy with the force that blocks an actual attack incoming at you that is physical.
You're making a grave error believing Plagueis is even using a conventional attack, too. He's not. He's speaking to Bane's midichlorians. A force shield won't stop that, why would it?

What makes you think that Force Shields are limited to the physical? Ignoring of course that the Force itself defies being limited to the physical, heres two quotes:





It says attacks period. Nothing about Force Shields being limited to the physical at all.

And if he's talking to the midichlorians through the Force then again thats hardly unblockable. There are ways of blocking telepathy and other mental abilities. Simply put theres nothing you've said that even nearly indicates that the attack is unblockable.


Originally posted by Lightsnake
Nobody has ever tried and failed, no. Luke, however, states that the way to block it is countering the telekinesis with his own when Sedriss and Goir used it on Kam Solusar in Dark Empire 2 Luke, btw, had used a force shield to block blasts from an AT AT blast.

And that means that theres absoluetly no other way a Force Choke can be blocked? How about that merely being the most effective way to block it?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yeah, how many at once again? He was fighting an army of powerful opponents there. As I recall...how many Doan assassins nearly took out Bane? With the Huntress?

I can't recall. 800? I'm just saying, any Force User can fail to detect an attack at the convenience of the story. Sometimes writers just forget that they can even do that.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And? He's got a much better track record than Bane.

At least Bane wasn't surprised and physically overcome by Princess Freaking Leia at one point. See, I can do this thing too.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Palpatine underestimated Yoda. He realized how wrong he was to do so early.

He didn't just underestimate him, he failed to sense Yoda's attack just as Bane has in the same way. It happens and it probably shouldn't, but it does.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Now, there's a reason your argument here is incorrect: You're relying on several false premises. Bane has shown nothing to indicate he can perceive midichlorians, or their being affected with the Force. True or false? He has not shown the control over things like midichlorians, true or false?

I've never claimed either of those things, so I don't see how I can be falsely relying upon them.


Originally posted by Lightsnake
No. Bane has failed to perceive things at a far, far larger scale. You say he can manipulate things at a sub-atomic level? Okay, so can any force user who makes a Holocron.

Here on KMC we argue characters based not on their weakest moments otherwise I would say that DE Sidious gets beaten by Leia. Just because Sidious failed to percieve Yoda's Force Push he'll never percieve any attack in a forum match? I think that what we do here is argue that if a character can do something then they will do something. Bane possesses Force Senses and Danger Sense. I'm not going to assume that Bane rolls a natural one and gets taken out by a random attack because he wasn't paying attention. Here we argue characters at their best, no their worst. Stop trying to undermine Bane just to make your favourite characters look better. You want to say that Bane can't sense attacks for crap? I'll pull the same shit in every single Sidious debate from now on. If you want to actually use common sense however, we can continue.

Look, I never claimed that Sidious couldn't block Traya's Giga Drain because he wouldn't sense it and even try to block it, did I? Despite the fact that Sidious' precognition has failed him before. We just don't do that in these debates.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And you should acknowledge this while we're at it: Plagueis trained decades to master the sensory abilities necessary to perceive and manipulate Midichlorians. In fact, Tenebrous says:
"To detect this infinitesimal percentage would require the precision of a Bith." Plagueis had to train it himself with his own technique.

Good for him? Relevence?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
To perceive the effects on his midichlorians, perhaps?

Why would he need to? His Danger Sense goes off and tells him to block and he does.


Originally posted by Lightsnake
Hey, maybe you should check a bit: YOU claimed at first Bane could block it.
Start proving up, thanks.

No, you said that Plagueis could use the technique to maybe solo and then claimed that 'Killing is the easiest thing ever'. I replied that nothing I'd seen suggests that it would be that easy or tha the technique was unblockable and you said that 'his opponents have no knowledge nor defense against it.' You made the claims first, so YOU start proving up.



Originally posted by Lightsnake
Because, maybe you simply don't get this, it's not a physical attack. It's not a rush of energy. It's telepathy to his midichlorians. It's ordering them.

Pushing you off a cliff is a physical assault. Talking you into jumping off is not

Except Plagueis isn't just talking to them, by his own words: 'I have learned how to manipulate midi-chlorians."

Prove that that is unblockable.


Originally posted by Lightsnake
In The Tenebrous Way, when Plagueis's examination of Tenebrous ended, Plagueis couldn't send Tenebrous midichlorians moving into his body.

Inform me: Where is your proof Bane can detect it? Or that it's blockable?

What is the relevence of that exactly?

That isn't how we operate. We don't just assume something isn't blockable without proof.


Originally posted by Lightsnake
I am using the point that Plagueis can use a method to kill:
That is beyond Bane's sensory perception
That has no demonstrated method of being stopped
That Bane has not shown he can block this directed at other beings.

As explained already non of this matters.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Furthermore, damaging your point is Zannah was capable of using a Sith spell on Bane regardless of any force shields he brought up.

Yes, some techniques cannot be blocked in regulare ways or even in no ways at all. Your job is to prove that Plagueis' midichlorian manipulation is one such way.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Plagueis certainly can deflect attacks, as he's demonstrated the pre requisites to do so.

But of course Bane can't.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Right, in incredible pain when he had the upper hand? And you'd think the force might warn him Kas'im wasn't done when he was gloating.

The Force isn't msn. It doesn't tap you on the shoulder and tell you that the guy you're fight has another lightsaber stashed and that he has an ace up his sleeve. It guides a users actions and lets them react to threats before they occur via precognition.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Inform me: What ever said midichlorians are larger than atoms?

I've also provided evidence from The Tenebrous way that Plagueis trained decades to study midichlorians specifically.

Well they're micro-organisms that reside inside of cells so presumably they're comprised of matter and all matter is made up of atoms.

I still don't see what exactly that proves.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, you're incorrect. Plagueis trained for decades for them.

And it's said Plagueis has no record of a Sith of even equal power to him previously.

From what I heard Tenebrous notes in The Tenebrous Way that Plagueis has an innate gift to detect and sense midi-chlorian activity.

Yes, clearly that is binding. That changes everything. Plagueis doesn't think anyone else was as awesome as he was so obviously he wins every fight. Thank god you've opened our eyes. Wait, does Sidious saying no-one can stop him now also mean that he's invincible?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Hiding isn't defending.
In order to defend agains tthis, Bane would have to manipulate his midichlorians to not shut down on him. AND the midichlorian sof the orbalisks themselves

Semantics.

No he wouldn't. Prove evidence that thats the only way to stop the technique.


Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, you're being foolish enough to claim Bane can block it off and you're saying "but nothing says there's no defense!" The force will just warn Bane he's in danger, even though he hasn't shown he can do anything against it. You've laughably relied on a force shield as a defense to Plagueis chatting with his midichlorians.

Untill you actually get some evidence to support your claim, thats all I need to do.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
So why are you debating?

Because I can.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Bnae had no mastery, and he could manage against it.

Considering that Zannah's sorcery killed Bane, lolno.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Are you suggesting Bane can hold two more powerful Sith off? Palpatine alone is better than Bane in pretty much everything.

Actually its: Can Bane hold them off for a few seconds? Answer: Yes. I'm not suggesting that Bane can take them both on at once, but he can stall them, certainly.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Here's how the fight goes:

Zannah tries this, Plagueis simply initiates his midichlorian shut down on both opponents. He uses it on Bane's orbalisks, killing them instantly.

Prove that Plagueis can use the technique to kill instantly.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
As it is a stated fact from the Tenebrous way that Plagueis only achieved these perception abilities through decades of study and it is an original technique that induces death, the only thing you have is the potential for Bane to possibly sense it.

Its more than potential. All Jedi have precognition. I see absolutely nothing suggesting that Bane will not sense the attack.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, wait, except Bane won't be able to because the presence of Palpatine and Plagueis will be clouding the force and their intentions, because that's another ability they have.

One that they can do instantly and without spending a few months fighting the Force?

If not, please explain this ability.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And since he can't sense their intentions with them shrouded by the Dark Side (Oh, and last I checked: Cognus, before any formal training, one upped him because she clouded herself from him as well. On nothing but instinct.) Palpatine was capable of masking his intentions to Plagueis, as well as even the mightiest Jedi in history to that point. Plagueis could do the same thing, why would he be able to perceive and stop this?

I fail to see how this is a combat ability. Though I'll note that all Force Users can blunt the perceptions of their opponents as explained in PoD. Its how they don't perfectly counter each other all the time. And that was Cognus' innate special ability and Bane was able to overcome it. Don't act as if her doing it proves a damn thing about Banes senses.

Now I'm not saying another word on the matter. Plagueis killed a fricking goon in his bed. Theres nothing suggesting this technique is unblockable, can kill swiftly or even can used in combat situations. If Plagueis actually used it on a real opponent that would be another thing. But there is zero evidence on its capabilities.

I can't believe after how much shit I got for claiming that Trayas technique was unblockable, when that had been directly stated as being unblockable and had 3 instances of it being used on powerful opponents to back it up, that you guys try the same thing on a technique thats been used once on a non-force sensitive with nothing to back up its unblockability.

/grouch.

All mere speculation.

Conjecture would be more appropriate; there's basis for all of that.

Plagueis did manipulate midi-chlorians; he did use that ability to kill and he did use it casually; it took natural affinity to detect (with concencentration), which Bane is not known to have, and decades of specialized training and meditation to hone, which Bane is not known to have; orbalisks aren't sentient.

Lightsnake's notion that Plagueis could kill Bane is farfetched; to suggest that he could do so instantly is ludacris. But the idea that he can influence the midi-chlorians of an orbalisk is perfectly reasonable.

If you're that eager for Bane to win, just ditch the orbalisks.

Originally posted by Nephthys
What makes you think that Force Shields are limited to the physical? Ignoring of course that the Force itself defies being limited to the physical, heres two quotes:
/Quote]
Wow, you've managed to provide they can stop force attacks, which...manifest as physical energy, fancy that, despite ignoring the clear evidence provided earlier.




Which is why Luke didn't use one to block a force choke and implied it'd be ineffective



Except Bane has no idea how to do this, thanks for playing, Neph.
Show me something indicating Bane can block it, or Plagueis's speaking to his midichlorians. Particularly with no knowledge.




Luke said he had to learn from the Jedi holocron how to block it. How interesting if a shield could do th-
Oh, wait.
We've seen force shields bypassed entirely, btw. The Huntress did it to Bane after Prkaith, funnily enough. Her attack to weaken his force abilities worked when he has a barrier up.




Try 22. Cognus, Jedder and 20 mercenaries.
And don't throw that "convenience" idiocy. Bane has failed consistently to do this. He didn't even sense sonic disruptors until they exploded



Palpatine was:
A. Dying
B. Trying to provoke her. He only got mad when she tole the Holocron



He didn't fail to sense it. He underestimated Yoda and didn't respond to the attack in time. He didn't need to sense it. He saw it when he was too busy gloaitng




Despite outright saying his spider sense will warn him
Didn't warn him of Cognus's attack.




If you're stupid or dishonest enough to ignore Palpatine was intentionally provoking her, I'm sure



Which failed him multiple times through all the books, when he was no excuse. Where was it when they lobbed sonic disruptors at him?
Where was it during Cognus or Farfalla's assault? Or Johun's strike that nearly beat him? Or when Worror put a force bubble up around him? Or when Zannah was calling on Ambria's power? Or using her Sith sorcery (which Bane can't block anyways)



"I'll disregard all evidence that Bane can't perceive this attack for no reason, oh wait, the reason is I'm a Bane fanboy."



Oh, give it a rest. You barely even know the source materials you're trying to bleat about.
How can I 'undermine' Bane like this? Plagueis is perfectly geared to take him out. That's all.



No, Palpatine could block it as he's a master of that power and we've seen powerful Sith block being drained of life anyways by the Thought bomb.




Bane can't detect workings on midichlorians. How is this hard?



Prove his danger sense will go off and he can block it.
Oh, wait, will you throw a fit about being asked to prove up? Again?
We know Bane didn't perceive Cognus's attack on him that weakened his defenses






Sure. Neither bane nor Zannah have shown they can perceive or defend against Plagueis's ability to force Midichlorians' return to the force.
Gee, that was simple.
Why would Bane's danger sense warn him? Warn him of what? How would he know to block? Against the nature of the technique? The only person who can prevent it is Palpatine. And he learned how to sense and control the Midichlorians as well





I never said it's unblockable. I said Bane has no idea how to stop it.
Bane has a trilogy of books. show me from evidence contained therein that Bane can do what you're claiming. Palpatine clearly prevented Plagueis from repairing his body at the end, but that's made clear it's because he also studied how to perceive Midichlorians and knew the same abilities





"Bane cna block it."
"Prove it."

God, we're going in circles




Because you say so?
God, you are worse than Nebaris



Yeah, it's pretty simple: Unless you train for it, or have the senses for it (like a Bith), you can't even perceive midichlorians or their manipulation


did you forget these two sith cna also cloud his mind?



No. It can warn you to still be cautious, though. Bane got arrogant and nearly died for it. The force can still warn you very clearly that so and so is still a threat



You're applying that to magical space bugs?



I'll say it slowly and simply so you can understand:

Palpatine studied decades to perceive Midichlorians

Bane hasn't.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Now I'm not saying another word on the matter. Plagueis killed a fricking goon in his bed. Theres nothing suggesting this technique is unblockable, can kill swiftly or even can used in combat situations. If Plagueis actually used it on a real opponent that would be another thing. But there is zero evidence on its capabilities.

There is nothing indicating it lacks use in combat. Palpatine using a variant to block Plagueis's healing while multitasking on him.



Oh, boo ****ing hoo. Except your precious technique of Force Drain has been blocked in the EU already

Things are made of matter. For a simple machine to be able to measure them (TPM: blood sample) it stands to reason that they are also made of matter.

This is not a place where physics can bend. There is no basis for an earnest dissent to the assertion "midichlorians are made of matter."

Really?

I understand and even agree with your overall point, but this was hilariously worded given the feats of Jedi and Sith throughout the mythos. haermm

Originally posted by Nephthys
From what I heard Tenebrous notes in The Tenebrous Way that Plagueis has an innate gift to detect and sense midi-chlorian activity.

Yes, and that he trained as well to do it



Oh, do stop being silly. Plagueis is a very learned being and he isn't even that arrogant in terms of his own power, unlike Palpatine. Plagueis discusses the deeds of past Sith, and acknowledges their power very accurately. He merely thinks that if another Sith his equal or superior existed, it's not recorded. Plagueis knows of Vitiate, Kun, Nihilus, Ragnos and Bane.
The fact that despite being trained incorrectly, Plagueis is such a monster with the force and saber? The fact that the back of the book calls him the most powerful Sith who ever lived? The entire Banite line being structured with Sith getting stronger over time, lord to Lord?
It's not even that Plagueis thinks he's so awesome. He clearly respects the Sith of old. Nothing indicates it's anything but an intellectual conclusion.





Start proposing other ideas. That's how Palpatine stopped Plagueis from healing himself





We've seen people bypass Force shields completely, btw.



No, it didn't. Bane used Essence Transfer and lost out to her. Of course, you knew I was refering to her Summon Fear Sith Spell




Together? Like hell. They'd make mincemeat out of him. It's not even close. All that has to happen is they cloud his mind and nail him with force lightning and Midichlorian shut down



Admittedly I can't. Can he hold his own while using it? Yep.

Of course, since Palpatine has shown he cna literally shut off your brain by snapping his fingers, it'd be odd if his crown attack couldn't do anything. Palpatine has also said he can use a technique to 'kill instantly' via an exertion of his anger, and he criticizes Plagueis for 'drawing it out' rather than ending it instantly..




Like he sensed Cognus.
Next.



They're not fighting it now. That shifted the balance. Here, they'd just have to use the same basic tech Palpatine had with the Jedi Order




Palpatine and Plagueis blunted the perceptions of the entire Jedi Order.

Yeah, Bane's failed so many times. Palpatine only sensed Plagueis trying to manipulate Midichlorians as he was trained for it.

Plagueis's 'innate special ability' involves the midichlorians. So, Bane does what when Plagueis focuses on the orbalisks? His precognition didn't save him from electrocuting himself, btw

Originally posted by Lightsnake
There is nothing indicating it lacks use in combat. Palpatine using a variant to block Plagueis's healing while multitasking on him.

There was nothing indicating Nihilus' Giga Drain lacked use in combat but that didn't stop you from arguing the potential of charge times and rituals and intensive concentration.

Whats this about a variant?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, boo ****ing hoo. Except your precious technique of Force Drain has been blocked in the EU already

Gideon was never able to successfully prove that. Even when he tracked down the source in which it was 'blocked'.

Originally posted by CityOfHope


Really?

I understand and even agree with your overall point, but this was hilariously worded given the feats of Jedi and Sith throughout the mythos. haermm
Feats are by definition things that happened. Whatever the overall system, the things Jedi and Sith do fall within the operating environment of the universe, which categorically includes things like "objects are made of matter."

The evidence overwhelmingly points to the techniques as being the same, from the effects to the lore. It was a brilliant argument that didn't hinge on vague or potentially hyperbolic testimony from characters, but confined itself strictly to the relevant guides and sourcebooks.

The reasoning was sound.

Originally posted by CityOfHope
The evidence overwhelmingly points to the techniques as being the same, from the effects to the lore. It was a brilliant argument that didn't hinge on vague or potentially hyperbolic testimony from characters, but confined itself strictly to the relevant guides and sourcebooks.

The reasoning was sound.

Hey.

Shut up. jk

no u

http://lucien0maverick.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/lelouch-vi-britannia.png

Oh u.

wtf is that

Its the guy in my avatar.

precisely wut is it

Anime. Code Geass to be more precise.

Look for Lelouch under Magnificent Bastard at TV tropes.

X 1000 for Nephthys' involvement in this thread against you jackassess.

Regarding the Force Shield, in Path of destruction, Darth Bane's telekinetic assault on Qordis (Force Choke) is described as directly tearing through his Force Shield, and it was stated that the students at the academy were taught to defend against telekinetic manipulation of their lightsabers by using a Force Shield, which would indicate that Force Shields can not only defend attacks that directly target the body, but also prevent manipulation of the equipment on their person as well and of a form that doesn't particularly resemble that of a conventional attack. Given that it defends against a large variety of techniques, the likelihood is that it serves as a defence to a general function rather than an arbitrary list of specific techniques, and the common denominator between all of the aforementioned techniques is that of a physical manipulation targeted on or towards the person's body or immediate equipment at hand, with negative implications. Based on the evidence that has been presented, it's unlikely that Plagueis' technique so differs in function that the Force Shield wouldn't serve as a practical defence against the technique.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
That's how Bane was making his Sith Holocron, was it not? Or is it unique to him?

Oh, and here's a quote:
Each holocron matrix had to meet stringent specifications, usually requiring thousands of precise alterations and adjustments on a subatomic level. Only through the power of the Force could one ensure that each crystalline strand was properly aligned.

What exactly is the source for this quote?

Interestingly, Palpatine is known to have studied treatises on Holocron construction during his apprenticeship under Plagueis.



With respect to Holocron instruction, the text does indeed indicate that subatomic manipulation was a required task, which means that this ability is not exclusive to Bane. Not that it matters, as we have no idea how hard it was to achieve and maintain that level of perception, making it useless with respect to combat.

Is it ever said that said subatomic manipulation has to be through the Force rather than via technology? That seems a viable alternative to me for Sith not able to do so through Force skill.

The matrix is stated to be the required component of a holocron, not the alterations Bane made to ensure that the matrix fell within the required specifications. The subatomic alterations are only stated to be a guarantee, not a requirement.

Is there evidence or suggestion of alternative methods for the creation of the matrix beyond the Force?





Two weeks of meditation to focus his power and all of it had to go towards its creation? I'm not seeing how this is applicable at all to combat, unless Bane is known to have possessed the ability to perceive and manipulate subatomic particles without such preparation.

And on that note, I'm off to do some writing. We'll carry this on later at the proper forum once Janus gets off his ass and validates you all. Laterz.

Originally posted by Nephthys
There was nothing indicating Nihilus' Giga Drain lacked use in combat but that didn't stop you from arguing the potential of charge times and rituals and intensive concentration.

You'll have to remind me, I can barely remember half of the KOTOR arguments these days. Nihilus can kill most with the giga drain, but we've seen from Karpyshyn, that drain is a blockable thing



With Midichlorians



You know that Thought Bomb? The effects are identical to the drainage Bane uses in Dynasty of evil: draining someone of force and vitality till they crumble to dust. Bane d survives with a bad headache.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Is it ever said that said subatomic manipulation has to be through the Force rather than via technology? That seems a viable alternative to me for Sith not able to do so through Force skill.

Are you SERIOUSLY suggesting the Sith didn't use the force to make their own Holocrons?

Good god. Your unintelligible reaching goes to new heights with each subsequent post.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
You'll have to remind me, I can barely remember half of the KOTOR arguments these days. Nihilus can kill most with the giga drain, but we've seen from Karpyshyn, that drain is a blockable thing

I don't see how thats relevent at all. The Thought Bomb isn't even close to being the same thing as Nihilus' Giga Drain. Karpyshyn hasn't elaborated upon Nihilus and Trayas technique to my knowledge.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
With Midichlorians

Could you be a little bit more specific than that? Palpatine used the midichlorians to stop Plagueis from healing?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
You know that Thought Bomb? The effects are identical to the drainage Bane uses in Dynasty of evil: draining someone of force and vitality till they crumble to dust. Bane d survives with a bad headache.

How does that have anything to do with Nihilus and Trayas technique? They are not the same thing. As I've already explained to you their technique involves a different process, seen here:

"It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves... it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes."

You can't equate it with a conventional drain. The technique is unblockable for a reason.

If you didn't wanna stop a few pages ago, I think it's fair to say you can stop now that LS just compared the thought bomb to other types of force drains. Distinctions are irrelevant when you're trying to prove yourself right, apparently.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't see how thats relevent at all. The Thought Bomb isn't even close to being the same thing as Nihilus' Giga Drain. Karpyshyn hasn't elaborated upon Nihilus and Trayas technique to my knowledge.


He doesn't have to. Their technique is Force Drain. Hell, that's even listed under the campaign guide



Yes. And he only sensed Plagueis's attempt to heal due to his speicalized training


Fantasticl. Except that's a basic description for force drain. Good god, when Vitiate did the same thing? You're doing nothing but bandying semantics over the technique's description.


Well, actually it's not. You're telling me in 4000 years, the Jedi never so much as researched a potential defense? You don't find it coincidental the life/force draining Thought Bomb was imparted by Revan who studied at...oh...Malachor V?

Also: double standards: Plagueis's Midichlorian chat can be blocked, but Nihilus's drain can't. Even though there's far more basis establishing the second can be dropped.

You claiming drain is unblockable when it's been shown otherwise with a technique nigh identical. Fanboyism much? You're a great example of what happens whne someone lets nothing but fanboyism rule their mind. Blah blah, ancients rule all, we've heard this song before.

The fact that some of you don't make distinctions when it helps you and do in other cases is humorous. Nothing suggests that all drains work in a similar fashion, no matter how much you want them to.

I've not seen any proof that the presence of Force bonds is necessary for the attack. That would require, for example, Nihilus to have formed a Force bond with the denizens of Katarr, would it not? For which there is no evidence.

Everything I've seen suggests that Force bonding is a fundamental part of the technique. That they were killed by the technique is evidence enough for the presence of Force bonds imo.

No, some of what you've provided indicates the presence of a Force bond prior to the drain. There is no known Force bond between Nihilus and Katarr, Nihilus and Telos, or Kreia and the Malachor assassins and I see no reason to assume that there was, particularly when the description of the attack from every other source is commensurate with a conventional Force drain, albeit on a much larger or (in Kreia's case) precise scale.

Why are we comparing Kreia's technique to Nihilus'?

Why would it not? Kriea was the one who taught Nihilus to use the power to new heights and when she uses the technique she claims it's the Exile's or soemthing like that.
Can't really think of anything else off the top of my head though.

Because the properties aren't the same. She might have taught him to use it to new heights but in the process, it seems like it became something else. Definitely similar to Vitiate's drain I think.

Where does the idea that Kreia's technique have different properties come from? Furthermore, nothing indicated that Nihilus drain became something else. Also Vitate's drain appears to be different as the Exile never felt anything like it before.

Yes.

I'm cool with that. My will is done regardless.

Hopefully everyone will actually remember all this this time. Its tiring gavering all these quotes and repeating myself.

Also I don't see the humor in the above.

No, I'm cool with that quote.

Originally posted by ares834
But how many Sith actually use drain anyway? I can think of very few besides those in KotOR 2 and those being Malak and Palpatine.
Bandon, Revan, and Bane were also practitioners of this Sith power.

Revan used this technique even after redemption.

When did Bandon and Revan actually use it? Regardless, it's pretty easy to exlpain why KotOR era Sith would know how to use it with Malachor and the Exile around.

Also where did Bane use something remotely similar? What he used on Tython seemed completley different.

According to Wookie:

"Tales of the Jedi Companion states that Force drain cannot be performed on sentient beings."

qnone

Hmm.... Intresting. Then I guess there is a diffrence between force drain and giga-drain. But then those that use drain on sentients such as the dark reaper, Palpatine, and Nihilus must be using giga-drain.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that must have been retconned.

Originally posted by ares834
When did Bandon and Revan actually use it? Regardless, it's pretty easy to exlpain why KotOR era Sith would know how to use it with Malachor and the Exile around.
Bandon:

It is among the Sith powers assigned to Bandon in KOTOR. He uses this technique against you when you face him. He actually drains multiple opponents simultaneously.

Revan:

Drain Force has been identified as one of his special talents in the KOTOR CG.

Also, Revan (during his last known captivity) replenished his energies by feeding on the powerful presence near him; Force Ghost of Meetra Surik.

Originally posted by ares834
Also where did Bane use something remotely similar. What he used on Tython seemed completley different.
I shall look into this. Some members are of the opinion that he knows Drain Force.

Dark Lord of the Sith Darth Bane was able to create a spherical deadly field of pure dark side energy around himself that instantly withered away anyone unlucky enough to be caught within its radius.

Thanks Neph. That saved me the effort.

Clearly since no defence is known against such a technique, none exists. Therefore Bane wins neener neener neener.

There is one method:

During last known captivity of Revan; Vitiate fed on Revan to satiate his hunger. Revan in turn fed on Force Ghost of Meetra to replenish his energies and survive.

The method is to drain others while getting drained. I believe that only very powerful individuals can pull this off.

Sounds like a variant of Drain Force to me. Feeding on the energies part supports this assumption.

Thanks for the details.

What Vitiate did on Nathema seems eerily similar to what Nihilus did on Katarr. Not the same, but similar.

Yes. Vitiate is among the practitioners of this Sith technique.

Yes, it is oddly similar. I don't know why the Exile didn't mention the similarities at all, but I suppose Drew just might have missed the connection.

Also apparantly the ritual Vitiate performed is being called The Void. Update your vernacular.

Drew's a dumbass. According to the novel, Kreia led a group of Jedi to the dark side rather than regroup the remnants of Revan's Empire.

Now hang on I just read that "the pair of them(Sidious and Plagueis) through intense meditation were able to direct the dark side of the force into ascension, tossing aside the light. It was theorized by his master that anakin had to be the result of the force balancing itself out, after their own actions in essence a random phenomenon that caught the pair of them off guard when the boy was discovered. Plageuis saw in anakin the destroyer of all the work he had spent his lifetime building. Sidious saw in anakin through his rebellious nature the apprentice that would have no equal.

That's an insane force feat, just two Sith Lords threw the Force out of balance.

Heres the full quote:




Personally I'd say that we need to evaluate the phrase ' No counterforce had risen against them' before we establish how great a feat this was.

Two Sith Lords meditated for months and managed to, through sheer force of will, drastically shift the galaxy's omnipotent energy field. Is it applicable to combat? No, but I'm unaware of any other being who had that kind of effect on the Force.

Originally posted by HigherPlace
Two Sith Lords meditated for months and managed to, through sheer force of will, drastically shift the galaxy's omnipotent energy field. Is it applicable to combat? No, but I'm unaware of any other being who had that kind of effect on the Force. I recall in ESB Palpatine sensing a "great disturbance in the Force" shortly after Leia kissed Luke.

Glad I wasn't the only one distrubed.

ROFL. Seriously?

As disturbing as that was, I'm not sure it adequately compares to tipping the whole thing to the dark side.

Freaking tipped the whole thing to the Taboo side--helluva 'chievement.

Bane might have been right. Dark side power in two individuals makes for a far bigger impact than that power in the hands of thousands.

I'm good with that. Gives the Dark Side back its esoteric feel from the films that the EU tends to ignore.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Heres the full quote:




Personally I'd say that we need to evaluate the phrase ' No counterforce had risen against them' before we establish how great a feat this was.

I am glad this was addressed though. It explains why during the prequels Mace says that the Jedi's ability to use the force had diminished. And why the Dark Side of the Force clouded their vision.
PT Jedi would be more powerful during previous eras.
That's right I said it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
How much sense does it make for it to be the same thing as Force Drain when any Jedi in the game can learn Force Drain whenever the hell they want? Why would the Exile need to be told about an ability that you can use whenever you want? Any goddamn Sith can use Force Drain. What they do is as far above that as Sidious' Force Storm is above regular Force Lightning.

You'll note that Force Strom can refer to multiple techniques as well.

Yeah, but when Nihilus's technique is specifically labeled as force drain? In fact, it says that he took it to new heights.
Furthermore, you're using gameplay mechanics. What, can Kyle Katarn learn force lightning when he had enough XP in the mythos now?

The key words are 'in the game.' In the novel Revan, he never uses Force Drain, nor makes attempts to.


Yes.




Besides the basic facts in the mythos of people blocking being drained with the Force





I'll assume this is simple ignorance.

When Bane utilizes the drain in DoE:

Muscles and tendons
atrophied instantaneously; their skin withered and shrank, pulling tight
across their bones. Eyes and tongues shriveled, turning them into
mummified husks before their desiccated flesh crumbled away, leaving
only skeletal remains and a few strands of hair.
The effort of creating an aura of pure dark side energy would have quickly
exhausted even Bane.
However, as his enemies fell he was able to draw their essence into
himself, feeding on their energies

In "Unseen, Unheard," Nihilus uses the drain on Katarr....every corpse shown around Visas is just bare bones.




At the end of the day, canon still says you're wrong. You're referring to the Exile's unique nature in the force draining others. That doesn't change the means in which they use it.

the KOTOR campaign guide still lists it as being Force Drain, so? Tough. You're outright wrong. Oh, and Palpatine is more or less a black hole/wound/event horizon in the force anyways.

What's hilarious here is that the glass house that you and Lightsnake are currently occupying and destroying with stones is built upon a foundation flowery prose from Stover and Avellone.

This insolence will not go unpunished.

Prepare your body.

My body is always prepared for you.