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We all knew that this was coming.
1) Force
2) Sabers
3) All Out
Scenario: Shortly after the formation of the Empire a time vortex sucks Lord Vitiate into a portal. After gaining his bearings he decides to become the new Emperor. This battle happens in the Grand Convocation chamber.
http://oyster.ignimgs.com/wordpress/www.ign.com/291/2011/01/So-it-begins-the-great-shitstorm-of-our-time.jpg

1. Vitiate
2. Sidious maybe*
3. Vitiate

*We don't know much about Vitiate' dueling abilities.

Yea we do. He's never lifted any kind of blade as far as his known history goes. He's a scholar, not a warrior.

DS is right. This is the guy who walked onto a lightsaber remember.

He clearly never needed a saber in 1,400 years to win a fight.

Yeah, the Sith Empire was completely pussy-whipped.

Dr McBeefington
He's a scholar, not a warrior.

I'd submit that Sidious is best described that way as well, but he's still capable enough to outright slaughter some of the Jedi order's finest warriors. Technically, SW_LeGenD is correct: we don't know, though I understand why, because of the substantiation Sidious enjoys in the lightsaber feat department, you'd be inclined to side with him.

No, we do know, or at least logically suspect. There has never been any mention of Vitiate ever picking up a blade at any point of his life. All that's mentioned was his ability to overcome everyone with the force.

Dr McBeefington
No, we do know, or at least logically suspect.

Yes to the latter, no to the former. Sidious's greater substantiation doesn't necessarily make him the more skilled duelist, particularly when he, like Vitiate, is best described as a scholar first and warrior second. But I agree that there's pretty much no way to argue that Vitiate is the more seasoned lightsaber combatant.

During second confrontation with Revan, Vitiate picked up his blade and attempted to kill him with it. However, Meetra knocked it out of his hand with Saber Throw technique.

A very formal way of saying 'saber throw'. Capitalized and all.

Lord Lucien
A very formal way of saying 'saber throw'. Capitalized and all.

And yet somehow his post is entirely unsophisticated. Go figure, eh?

I would go ahead and say.
1. Vitiate 6/10
2. Sidious 10/10 (Vitiate lacks feats)
3. Sidious 6/10

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I would go ahead and say.
1. Vitiate 6/10
2. Sidious 10/10 (Vitiate lacks feats)
3. Sidious 6/10
Dude, seriously?

This incarnation of Sidious stands no chance against Vitiate in 1 and 3.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Dude, seriously?

This incarnation of Sidious stands no chance against Vitiate in 1 and 3.

Considering Revan fought on par with him I don't see why not? Sidious can counter his lightning with his sabers or his bear hands, and has show the Force Speed to blitz 3 Jedi Masters.
Vitiate does not get prep in this case.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Considering Revan fought on par with him I don't see why not?
Revan is very powerful. This has been made clear in his novel.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Sidious can counter his lightning with his sabers or his bear hands,
From where did you get this funny idea? There is no stopping to Force Storm from Lord Vitiate.

He overpowered 4 powerful Jedi with it:

voh2VOb-B0w

And turned all of them into his mental slaves.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
and has show the Force Speed to blitz 3 Jedi Masters.
Vitiate does not get prep in this case.
Vitiate can handle multiple powerful opponents simultaneously. An example presented above. He is extraordinarily powerful in the Force.

Bring in Luke Skywalker and then you have a fight.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
From where did you get this funny idea? There is no stopping to Force Storm from Lord Vitiate.

Didn't Revan stop 'to' Force Storm from Lord Vitiate though?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Didn't Revan stop 'to' Force Storm from Lord Vitiate though?
Revan drew all of that power into himself which was a mistake. Granted that he (Revan) had exceptional command of Tutaminis but it backfired in this case.

Revan should have attempted to deflect it instead. Don't know what would have been the result with this strategy though.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Considering Revan fought on par with him I don't see why not? Sidious can counter his lightning with his sabers or his bear hands, and has show the Force Speed to blitz 3 Jedi Masters.
Vitiate does not get prep in this case. This is laughable.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Revan drew all of that power into himself which was a mistake. Granted that he (Revan) had exceptional command of Tutaminis but it backfired in this case.

Revan should have attempted to deflect it instead. Don't know what would have been the result with this strategy though.

The attack is described as "infinitely more powerful than Nyriss'". While there's some obvious hyperbole there, the intention of the narration is to stress that the Sith Emperor is in a whole 'nother ballpark from even Revan. And Revan's feat against Nyriss certainly rivals anything we see from Yoda or Sidious in the prequels. I don't see RotS Sidious succeeding where Revan failed.

Revan put Vitiate on his ass twice and deflected all of his conventional/non-charged attacks. Sounds like Vitiate needs to spend some more time in the batting cage.

Originally posted by EdgeOfTheMoment
Revan put Vitiate on his ass twice and deflected all of his conventional/non-charged attacks. Sounds like Vitiate needs to spend some more time in the batting cage.

Revan's also grown since their first encounter (when Vitiate utterly dominated him without even stirring from his chair), is at this point able to equally channel light and darkness (something incredibly rare in the entire mythos) and the most powerful Jedi in the Order by admission of the narrator. Him getting some "first hits" in (especially considering the Emperor was initially trying to dominate his mind, not Force-pwn him into oblivion) is ignoring the context. When the Emperor meant business, Revan was destroyed without any hope of overcoming the Emperor. The narration even indicates that the only time the Emperor was in danger of dying was when he was about to murder Revan on the ground and Meetra used a desperation move to ward off the blow.

I thought you read the book?

Stealth Moose
Revan's also grown since their first encounter

Considering that I'm referring to their second encounter, this is irrelevant.



Vitiate's mental domination is confirmed by Scourge to be the product of a "powerful ritual," which is commensurate with the fact that in all cases of Vitiate's successful manipulation of Force-users, he had the advantage of foreknowledge and preparation, which includes Revan's first encounter with him.



I'm curious how this in and of itself is supposed to impress me in with respect to a duel, since there is no noted advantage beyond a powerful telekinetic outburst, which is something hardly unique to this instance.



The narrator in this case being Revan himself, as he recounts what he knows of his life prior to assuming the mantle of Sith Lord.



He had one "hit" when Vitiate is trying to dominate his mind. The second time, there is no evidence that Vitiate was unprepared, especially in light of the fact that he was actively attacking Revan with Sith lightning.



When the Emperor meant business, Revan afforded him the opportunity to charge his powers in what can only be described as an enormous tactical blunder from a supposed tactical genius.



The narration also indicates that the Emperor "needed" to exploit the opportunity provided by Scourge's betrayal of Surik. But you were willing to dismiss that in another thread, correct? Would you mind sharing with the rest of us your process for determining what counts as valid narration and what doesn't? Because it seems to me that you're only interested in the words that make Vitiate l33t.



I did, but I know you didn't.

Revan's big tactical blunder was attempting to absorb Vitate's lightning rather than block it with his saber... In fact, I'm still trying to figure out why he would do such a stupid thing.

Perhaps it was part of a ploy. Perhaps Revan intended to be incapacitated and wind up as the Emperor's chew toy for the next three centuries, if only to manipulate him from within. He and Surik had it all planned out.

Of course. Once again Revan's genius is unsurpassed.

Indeed. Now weigh in on this thread, servant.

Servant!? I serve no man and certainly not a newbie!



Anyway, aside from Vitate's mind powers I wasn't all that impressed by him. Especially since his defeat of Revan reeks of PIS. So I'm giving the victory to Palpatine.

Who says I'm either?

Just kidding, I'm definitely a newbie.



No comment.

But I may or may not be greatly displeased and would encourage you to read Plagueis at your earliest convenience.

I plan to. Read you review BTW. And the book sounds absolutely amazing.

Quite possibly Luceno's finest moment. Appropriately, if you haven't read Cloak of Deception, I'd encourage you to read it as well. Perhaps even before Plagueis, if you can resist.

I actually just finished it a second time over Christmas in anticipation for Plagueis.

Then you are guaranteed to be entertained.

Originally posted by EdgeOfTheMoment
Vitiate's mental domination is confirmed by Scourge to be the product of a "powerful ritual," which is commensurate with the fact that in all cases of Vitiate's successful manipulation of Force-users, he had the advantage of foreknowledge and preparation, which includes Revan's first encounter with him.
The second encounter revealed that Vitiate can use his mind dominating powers directly in combat situations like a weapon.

The ritual you speak of binds the Imperial Guard with Vitiate in such a manner that not just they are his unquestionably loyal servents but can also draw power from him in combat situations.

Originally posted by EdgeOfTheMoment
I'm curious how this in and of itself is supposed to impress me in with respect to a duel, since there is no noted advantage beyond a powerful telekinetic outburst, which is something hardly unique to this instance.
Hardly unique? It wasn't some normal telekinetic assualt. It was the Force unleashed in its purest form and it send Vitiate (extraordinarily powerful individual) flying in backward direction.

Try to visualize the temporary ownage.

However, purpose of this unique feat was not to cause destruction (Revan did not channeled this power) but to prevent mental domination and overwhelm the opponent simultaneously.

Originally posted by EdgeOfTheMoment
The narrator in this case being Revan himself, as he recounts what he knows of his life prior to assuming the mantle of Sith Lord.
Says who?

Here;

Though the Mandalorian fought valiantly, in the end he was no match for the Jedi Order's most powerful champion.

&

Here;

She still wasn't sure what to make of Lord Scourge. She had sensed that his offer to work together was sincere, though she wondered how much of that was Revan's doing. It was easy to understand how Scourge could be drawn to him; Revan's command of the Force was greater than that of anyone else she had ever met. And she knew how charismatic he could be.

These narrations reflect the intended message of the author.

As a certain poster has already explained exhaustively on a multitude of threads, Star Wars novels are written in third person limited form. The observations and musings detailed within novels are, with few exceptions, from the perspective of the viewpoint character.

In this case, Revan was the viewpoint character and thus the narration Stealth Moose provided can only be attributed to him, not some sort of omniscient narrator. Likewise, the idea that Vitiate "needed" to exploit the opening created by Surik's death is simply Scourge's inference based on observation of Vitiate's hesitance when confronted with the three of them.

With respect to your other remarks, I must confess a complete disinterest in discussing this with you. You consistently demonstrate a bizarre affliction of double standards and your perspective on what is impressive (e.g. Malgus feeling the Force fully or something to that effect) is so asynchronous to the rest of us that it would be absolutely inane to dedicate valuable time to discuss it to you.

And just so you understand, I don't mean that as a personal attack nor is it that I just don't like it when people disagree with me. The difference between you and Stealth Moose is that while you share certain similarities and methods, he is far more reasonable than you and I am thus able to openly discuss this thread and others like it with him intense frustration and admittedly homicidal urges.

Originally posted by EdgeOfTheMoment
As a certain poster has already explained exhaustively on a multitude of threads, Star Wars novels are written in third person limited form. The observations and musings detailed within novels are, with few exceptions, from the perspective of the viewpoint character.
Novels represent the stories of the characters. They represent their world in a sense. Novels are written in a manner that the readers do not get the feeling that they are reading guides or encyclopedias.

The actual opinions of characters are typically mentioned in quotes. If a character is thinking about a past experience then word thought can be used to indicate this.

For example;

"Doesn't sound familiar," Canderous said after a few moments of thought. "What do you think it means?"

However, novels can contain texts that directly convey the intended message of the author to the readers. The author attempts to give readers a snapshot of events with these types of texts.

For example;

Revan couldn't actually remember any of his battles against the Mandalorians; they were buried in the part of his mind that had been locked away when the Jedi Council turned him against Malak. But he had studied up on his own history enough to fill in the missing details from Canderous's narrative.

In battle after battle, Revan had led the Jedi and Republic forces to victory. Realizing defeat was inevitable, Mandalore the Ultimate had challenged Revan to single combat, and Revan had accepted. Though the Mandalorian fought valiantly, in the end he was no match for the Jedi Order's most powerful champion. But it wasn't enough for Revan to simply defeat his enemy.

We are getting a sneakpeak of some events that occurred during the Mandalorian Wars in the above text, which also represent the opinion of the author.

In addition, there can be descriptions that represent the feelings of characters in a certain situation, as you pointed below by using the example of Vitiate.

Originally posted by EdgeOfTheMoment
In this case, Revan was the viewpoint character and thus the narration Stealth Moose provided can only be attributed to him, not some sort of omniscient narrator.
See above.

Originally posted by EdgeOfTheMoment
Likewise, the idea that Vitiate "needed" to exploit the opening created by Surik's death is simply Scourge's inference based on observation of Vitiate's hesitance when confronted with the three of them.
Yes, this event represents the feelings of Vitiate at that moment.

Originally posted by EdgeOfTheMoment
With respect to your other remarks, I must confess a complete disinterest in discussing this with you. You consistently demonstrate a bizarre affliction of double standards and your perspective on what is impressive (e.g. Malgus feeling the Force fully or something to that effect) is so asynchronous to the rest of us that it would be absolutely inane to dedicate valuable time to discuss it to you.
My opinions are based on nuetral perspective. I analyze each expression and then try to grasp their context.

There is a difference between these two expressions:

1. The Force responded to his emotional state, caught him up in its power until he was awash in it.

2. Thinking of Eleena blew oxygen on the embers of his anger. In life, Eleena had been his weakness, a tool to be exploited by rivals. In death, she had become his strength, her memory the lens of his rage.

He resided in the calm eye of a storm of hate. Power churned around him, within him. He did not feel as if he were drawing on the Force, using it. He felt as if he were the Force, as if he had merged with it.

The first expression indicates that Malgus is calling upon the Force to augment his strength.

The second expression indicates that Malgus is in an extremely refined state of mind and he experiences deeper connection to the Force then in the previous event under this mental condition.

Originally posted by EdgeOfTheMoment
And just so you understand, I don't mean that as a personal attack nor is it that I just don't like it when people disagree with me. The difference between you and Stealth Moose is that while you share certain similarities and methods, he is far more reasonable than you and I am thus able to openly discuss this thread and others like it with him intense frustration and admittedly homicidal urges
Thank you.

I'm not inclined to spend more posts trying to explain this phenomenon to you. Hopefully this can properly explain the mechanics to you. Hopefully you'll come to understand the distinction, because I can guarantee you that the poster in question will use less than courteous methods to educate you.

Originally posted by EdgeOfTheMoment
I'm not inclined to spend more posts trying to explain this phenomenon to you. Hopefully this can properly explain the mechanics to you. Hopefully you'll come to understand the distinction, because I can guarantee you that the poster in question will use less than courteous methods to educate you.
I can handle my own against discourteous posters. Don't worry about that.

And I suppose that this does not represents Revan's opinion:

She still wasn't sure what to make of Lord Scourge. She had sensed that his offer to work together was sincere, though she wondered how much of that was Revan's doing. It was easy to understand how Scourge could be drawn to him; Revan's command of the Force was greater than that of anyone else she had ever met. And she knew how charismatic he could be.

I'd say that represents the Exiles opinion probably.

Yes, that IS the Exile's opinion and it is 100% valid because this is her perspective.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And I suppose that this does not represents Revan's opinion:

She still wasn't sure what to make of Lord Scourge. She had sensed that his offer to work together was sincere, though she wondered how much of that was Revan's doing. It was easy to understand how Scourge could be drawn to him; Revan's command of the Force was greater than that of anyone else she had ever met. And she knew how charismatic he could be.

Correct, the viewpoint character tends to change from chapter to chapter in Star Wars books. Some passages operate from Revan's perspective, some from Surik's, and others from Scourge's.



Correct.

Thanks for telling me I'm correct when I was stating the obvious

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Thanks for telling me I'm correct when I was stating the obvious

You're welcome.

Jeez, get a room you two.

We can't, he can't seem to get out of yours.

I lost the keys to my cuffs. Sue me. (Don't sue me)

They're probably in your G-string that you'll force Gideon to remove... With his teeth.

That sounds really uncomfortable. Keys inside a G-string? Talk about wedging.

not to mention challenging!

I'm not willing to contradict anyone at this point (mainly because I'm about to crack open my English Lit book and lose part of my soul) but for the record, I have read "Revan". If you were paying close attention here and elsewhere, you might realize that I stated I read it along with other SW books over the holidays.

My sympathies. If you require further evidence, Borbarad has probably made dozens of posts that were very convincing.



Sure you did.



Yeah, I know. I'm just as skeptical about you as you are that I did.

Originally posted by EdgeOfTheMoment
Yeah, I know. I'm just as skeptical about you as you are that I did.

wut

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
wut

Exactly.

Did somebody call for my assistance here? Oh. Literature analysis. Fun time incoming.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Novels represent the stories of the characters. They represent their world in a sense. Novels are written in a manner that the readers do not get the feeling that they are reading guides or encyclopedias.


Captain obvious to the rescue. You forgot to mention, that novels are texts, which are written by combining sentences, which are combinations of words, which usually are built by using letters. If that statement is a demonstration of your level of competence in literature analysis, you should stop arguing and go get some education.



In short: No.
Most of the characters thoughts and opinions do happen outside the quotes, which are there to allow dialogue with other characters. You're actually implying, that characters within fiction have to vocalize every single thought / opinion they have. Obviously, that is nonsense.



Apparently, you have a hard time recognizing the perspective from which certain things are narrated. Let me explain that, using the quote that you have introduced yourself:

Revan couldn't actually remember any of his battles against the Mandalorians; they were buried in the part of his mind that had been locked away when the Jedi Council turned him against Malak. But he had studied up on his own history enough to fill in the missing details from Canderous's narrative.

In battle after battle, Revan had led the Jedi and Republic forces to victory. Realizing defeat was inevitable, Mandalore the Ultimate had challenged Revan to single combat, and Revan had accepted. Though the Mandalorian fought valiantly, in the end he was no match for the Jedi Order's most powerful champion. But it wasn't enough for Revan to simply defeat his enemy.

Emphasis mine.
What is the context here? What is the situation of communication that is presented to us by the author? Taking a look to the parts that I've highlighted, you might be able to figure out, that this entire passage represents Revan's thoughts. First, he can't remember, then he studies some history, which allows him to fill the gaps. The next paragraph is the result of that "filling of gaps". It is the version of what happened as Revan has puzzled it together. That doesn't mean, that it has to be correct.



Really?
What I see there, is a character thinking about his own past. Whether or not this version is correct or matches the opinion of the author can't be verfied in that situation. You see: An author could use a "true omniscient" narrator to introduce "facts" into his story. Even by just utilizing another perspective (e.g. another character within the story) he could have made the content of the narration above more "objective". Yet, he choses to let us take a look into Revan's thoughts about his own history.

And, in fact, we are pretty much confronted with a little contradiction here: Revan, in times of the Mandalorian Wars, was no servant of the Jedi Order any longer. He went to war against Orders of the Jedi Council and pretty much went to the Dark Side (by exploring Malachor V) before the end of said war. So, rather than giving us "facts", we are confronted with a very Revan-friendly interpretation of historic events. Something to expected from a character thinking about himself but not from a truely omniscient narrator.



Excuse me. Most contemporary fiction is written in form of third person limited narration, in which the narrator talks from the point of view of one or multiple persons within the story, using their opinions, views, thoughts. This is, clearly, also the case with almost all SW works, including the one you've quoted - which I just demonstrated above. So there aren't just "certain situations" in which the feelings of characters apply - the entire narration is written from the perspective of the characters and, hence, always coined by their thoughts and feelings.



Sorry, Sir.
You obviously ignore context and your personal perspective is most certainly not a "neutral" one, because you have some opinion, you're trying to defend here, which excludes yourself from the realm of neutrality.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I would go ahead and say.
1. Vitiate 6/10
2. Sidious 10/10 (Vitiate lacks feats)
3. Sidious 6/10

This. Although I am a bit hesitant to even give Vitiate the force battle. Although Vitiate has displayed mind control powers on others on a scale that ROTS has not yet demonstrated, I doubt he will be mind controling Darth Sidious anytime soon. By the age of 17, Palpatine had raised psychic walls so strong that they were impenetrable for Plagueis, who was one of the most powerful force user of that time (this was before Palpatine had any training at all). Later on during Palpatine's apprenticeship, him and Plagueis, as Lightsnake has brought out in another thread, went on to challenge the force for sovereignty, and by the power of their will they managed to succeed in causing an imbalance in favor of the dark side, without being destroyed by the force.

Sidious lightning at this point was powerful enough to reduce a giant sith worm to ash, and strong enough to rip Yoda's lightsaber from his hands. Sidious also took on the full brunt of his own lightning to the face without it even weakening him, the same exact lightning that nearly overwhelmed Windu's lightsaber defense. Vitiate would have some serious trouble trying to overcome Sidious with the force, whereas Sidious holds a huge advantage with a lightsaber.

So? Vitiate ruled a planet and was destroying sith lords by 13. What's your point?

Vitiate has shown mind powers on a level unlike anything we have ever seen in the mythos. His force lightning is arguably stronger as well.

The sentences around that one help establish what educated people called 'context'. By examining context, one increases one's chances of understanding his opponent's point.

As an example, your opponent might be trying to insinuate that since a teenage, untrained Palpatine's mind was "impenetrable" to a powerful Sith Lord, it may provide something of a challenge for Vitiate to subjugate an older, stronger, better trained Palpatine.

An idea that your response (Vitiate ruling a planet and killing his father) doesn't address.

Originally posted by CityOfHope
The sentences around that one help establish what educated people called 'context'. By examining context, one increases one's chances of understanding his opponent's point.

As an example, your opponent might be trying to insinuate that since a teenage, untrained Palpatine's mind was "impenetrable" to a powerful Sith Lord, it may provide something of a challenge for Vitiate to subjugate an older, stronger, better trained Palpatine.
Context is lovely but since we don't know how powerful Plagueis' mind domination skills were and we DO have an idea of Vitiate's, this particular context is irrelevant.


Detailing his power as barely a teenager.

It's not irrelevant; there is an obvious and direct relation between young&untrained!Palpatine's "impenetrable" mind and the argument that Vitiate will certainly subjugate him. The fact that Plagueis's ability to mentally dominate others is unknown does not negate the connection, it simply means that what is impenetrable to Plagueis may not be impenetrable to Vitiate.

But then it wasn't introduced as conclusive proof against Vitiate's ability to do that, it was simply offered as an explanation as to why Sidious66 believes the way he does.



By your reckoning, because Sidious is not the Sith Lord in question whom Vitiate murdered nor are his powers detailed, this is as irrelevant as Sidious66's remarks.

Since I deemed his comment irrelevant (due to both Plagueis being an unknown and me never stating that Vitiate would surely dominate Sidious), I started comparing power levels at their teenage years.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Vitiate has shown mind powers on a level unlike anything we have ever seen in the mythos.

That's arguable. Plagueis and Palpatine both went up against the will of the force, and that is a level of will power unlike anything we have ever seen in the mythos.


Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
His force lightning is arguably stronger as well.

Revan was able to block it.

Originally posted by CityOfHope
The sentences around that one help establish what educated people called 'context'. By examining context, one increases one's chances of understanding his opponent's point.

As an example, your opponent might be trying to insinuate that since a teenage, untrained Palpatine's mind was "impenetrable" to a powerful Sith Lord, it may provide something of a challenge for Vitiate to subjugate an older, stronger, better trained Palpatine.

An idea that your response (Vitiate ruling a planet and killing his father) doesn't address.

Exactly

It's an inadequate comparison. The circumstances of upbringing and the nature of the environment differ radically between these two Sith. Palpatine, born in a time in which the Jedi were supreme, could not draw attention to himself, unlike Vitiate. This is a critical detail to Plagueis's interest in Palpatine and his Force sensitivity, if you read the book.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
That's arguable. Plagueis and Palpatine both went up against the will of the force, and that is a level of will power unlike anything we have ever seen in the mythos.
Sure, that isn't hyperbole.. I guess Revan was the heart of the force then.





Because Revan was prepared for it the 2nd time around. And he's pretty damn l337.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Sure, that isn't hyperbole.. I guess Revan was the heart of the force then.

No, it's not hyperbole. It's something they actually did, which caused the imbalance of the force. And to Plagueis' surprise they managed to do so without being killed by the force as a consequence.



Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Because Revan was prepared for it the 2nd time around. And he's pretty damn l337.

Palpatine wouldn't be prepared for sith lightning from a sith lord or what?

It wasn't simple sith lightning but nice try.

And no, it is hyperbole and not exactly relevant in a combat situation.

Yeah, sorr,y DS, but it's stated Palpatine and Plagueis had to keep the Force itself from killing them in return from unbalancing it

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
It wasn't simple sith lightning but nice try.

It was an extremely powerful version of sith lightning, which was blocked by Revan's lightsaber.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
And no, it is hyperbole and not exactly relevant in a combat situation.

So then I can claim that the legend about Vitiate dominating 100 dark lords is hyperbole? Or him disposing of 10 members on the council? At least we have more evidents on Plagueis and Sidious' feat.

Palpatine's will power is relevant in combat if he is to face Vitiate.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It was an extremely powerful version of sith lightning, which was blocked by Revan's lightsaber.Initially.



no, bc they gave a concrete number to how many people Vitiate dominated. The details of the purge are another matter.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yeah, sorr,y DS, but it's stated Palpatine and Plagueis had to keep the Force itself from killing them in return from unbalancing it

No they didn't. In fact, the novel makes it clear that the force did not fight back, at least not in the manner they imagined.

"No counterforce had risen against them" (pg 279).

It's still an icredible feat and shows their massive comand of the dark side but it really isn't apllicable to a fight. And DS it's not hyperbole. Thay litteraly willed "the Force to shift and tip irrevocably to the dark side."

Actually, it makes clear they won.
them.
"In what amounted to a state of rapture they knew that the Force had yielded, as if some deity had been
tipped from its throne. On the fulcrum they had fashioned, the light side had dipped and the dark side had ascended"

Lightsnake beat me to it. But yes it is relevant in a fight with Vitiate. Palpatine has a strong will and would likely resist Vitiate's mind manipulations.

The Force yeilded without a fight? Man, the Force is kind of lame.

Or, y'know, it just couldn't fight back.

Christ, Vitiate unexpectedly dominates the mind of Sith lords, he's awesome.

Palpatine and Plagueis dominate The Force? Make every excuse we can against them.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Actually, it makes clear they won.
them.
"In what amounted to a state of rapture they knew that the Force had yielded, as if some deity had been
tipped from its throne. On the fulcrum they had fashioned, the light side had dipped and the dark side had ascended"

Never said they didn't win. In fact, I posted a passage showing that they managed to tip the scales...

All I said is the Force didn't "fight back" or attempt to kill them like you stated it did.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The Force yeilded without a fight? Man, the Force is kind of lame.

Well, it did fight back just not in a way the Sith predicted.

Anakin.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The Force yeilded without a fight? Man, the Force is kind of lame.

Well, no, the force didn't just let them cause a shift in the force. Plagueis and Sidious waged an "etheric war", suggesting that the force did put up a challenging, which is why it took them months of deep meditation to do.

Ares, provide your thoughts on Plagueis in the relevant thread here or elsewhere (TFN, ROK).

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Well, no, the force didn't just let them cause a shift in the force. Plagueis and Sidious waged an "etheric war", suggesting that the force did put up a challenging, which is why it took them months of deep meditation to do.

But what about Ares' quote?

What's conrradictory? They waged the etheric war, won it and weren't challenged after

Ares' quote comes from after they've already won?

Yup

Yes.

So where does the 'Palpatine and Plagueis had to keep the Force itself from killing them in return from unbalancing it' part come in?

Originally posted by Nephthys
So where does the 'Palpatine and Plagueis had to keep the Force itself from killing them in return from unbalancing it' part come in?

They anticipated the Force to react by inciting their own midichlorians against them, boiling their blood or stop the beating of their hearts.

The amount of reaching is humorous. "OMG they fought back the force they win!!"



Likely resist? That's as baseless as me saying he'd get shitcanned.

Originally posted by CityOfHope
They anticipated the Force to react by inciting their own midichlorians against them, boiling their blood or stop the beating of their hearts.

And did it?

Originally posted by Nephthys
And did it?

Since the book doesn't end there, I'm thinking no.

Did it react at all?

Please explain the validity of this particular (what I call) hyperbole as it pertains to combat.

Gee, having the will and power to tip the balance of existence towards darkness?

Not relevant

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
The amount of reaching is humorous. "OMG they fought back the force they win!!"



Likely resist? That's as baseless as me saying he'd get shitcanned.

Sorry. He will resist it.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Gee, having the will and power to tip the balance of existence towards darkness?

Not relevant

No, because if that was relevant, they would have defeated everybody they ever faced with no degree of difficulty. Not relevant at all.


Sure, in the afterlife.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Did it react at all?

Based on the description that Plagueis and Sidious "waged an etheric war" and that the effort required "months of intense meditation", I'd say yes. But no specifics are given and once they "asserted their sovereignty over the Force", "no counterforce had risen against them."

I'm genuinely curious and I'd encourage you to not get pissy and provide an answer that minimizes defensiveness.

But what's your deal with Vitiate? Right out of the gate, you were making some very bold claims about his power. Since then you've toned it down but take potshots at anyone who even suggests he'd lose or have difficulty with anyone. What's the deal and when can we expect an actual argument instead of sniping?

I'm not sure. But as someone who's biased, are you calling me biased? Also, show me where I made some very bold claims? And the potshots are on both sides there champ, but it's hard to pretend to be objective no? Here's a hint: Plagueis and Sidious win easily..

To be honest at the moment I'm finding the wanking of Plagueis to be just as irritating as the wanking of Vitiate was. First people claimed that no-one could resist Vitiates mental domination and now people are claiming that no-one can resist Plagueis' midichlorian manipulation. What happened to actual debates?

Originally posted by Nephthys
To be honest at the moment I'm finding the wanking of Plagueis to be just as irritating as the wanking of Vitiate was. First people claimed that no-one could resist Vitiates mental domination and now people are claiming that no-one can resist Plagueis' midichlorian manipulation. What happened to actual debates?

You mean the accusers are NOT objective? *Gasp*

Gasp indeed. Gasp indeed.......

Did you mistake my encouragement for you to not get pissy as clever reverse psychology?



Are you certain?



I'm not calling you anything, nor am I making judgments, so you can calm down. I'm only making an observation as to your behavior.

Are you biased with regards to Vitiate?



Pretty much the rest of this thread, beginning here.



So you believe yourself to be on a side?



Nowhere have I agreed with Lightsnake on this and, in fact, I've called him out on some of his claims regarding Plagueis and his opponents.

Originally posted by CityOfHope
Did you mistake my encouragement for you to not get pissy as clever reverse psychology?

Was pretty sure anything I responded with would have been considered "pissy".



You'll need to summarize because I'm not going through 47 pages.




I'd like to think not but possibly since I think he'd win most fights. Then again, I've always acknowledged that he wasn't above DE Sidious.



Aren't we all? Except I wasn't claiming to be impartial.

Not at all.

You should have taken my request at face value and answered accordingly. Unless I'm supposed to interpret comments like these differently: "but it's hard to pretend to be objective, no?", "you mean the accusers are NOT objective?", "as someone who's biased, are you calling me biased?"

This response from you is exceedingly more genuine and less defensive.





Not always. From page 8 of that thread:



It's not your bias, potential or actual, that's the problem. Everyone here is biased on one topic or another. It's the way you treat those who disagree with your vision of Vitiate in conjunction your reluctance to provide actual arguments.



No one was.

Didn't GL state that it didn't?

Don't think so... But it is ambigious in the book as at one point Plagueis attempts to create a "Forceful being" and this attempt could be Anakin despite the fact that Plagueis feels nothing.

Lucas left it intentionally ambiguous for the fans.

Just a reminder, DS: you've yet to respond to the final post on the previous page.

You'll probably want to take this to the other forum if you want to converse unmolested.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You'll probably want to take this to the other forum if you want to converse unmolested.

hehe molesting.

Yeah, I definitely would but it started here. Once Janus gets off his lazy bum ass and completes the transition by validating all of the registered accounts, my presence will no longer haunt this place. But the conversation started here and I figured I'd make it easier on DS to explain himself without switching forums.

The only time I have treated someone less than fairly was when they put forth some baseless pro PT agenda. I don't recall dismissing good arguments. Also, I stand by my statement that I never claimed Vitiate was superior to DE Sidious. That is another discussion.

Mizukage_Yoda's posts hardly reek of "baseless pro-PT agenda." Rather than rebut his posts, you took blatant potshots at him and refused to engage.

On the other hand, if all you were doing was pointing out flaws in arguments or calling people out on their biases, why didn't you do so with SW_LeGenD? His history of "bias" is far more blatant than Mizukage's.





^ This was the claim you made on the previous thread. There is a critical difference between "acknowledging that Vitiate isn't above DE Sidious" and "never claiming Vitiate was superior to DE Sidious." By arguing semantics, you may be able to prove the latter, but your posts elsewhere contradict the former, previous claim: twice in two pages you insinuated that Vitiate had surpassed Palpatine:



^ Page nine of that thread. Perhaps there are more, I can't remember.

The bottom line, though, is that bias isn't an issue for me. Your attitude and tactics, which are driven by that bias, are. I'm biased, Lucius is biased, Nai is biased, Janus is biased, even LeGenD is biased: the difference is that they're willing to provide arguments rather than snipe and insult from the background.

It's silly that you do that if the truth of your opinions is so obvious. You should be able to develop those ideas through discourse. Even nitpicking would be preferable to what you're doing now.

Originally posted by Tantra
Mizukage_Yoda's posts hardly reek of "baseless pro-PT agenda." Rather than rebut his posts, you took blatant potshots at him and refused to engage.
Because many of the dumbasses on this forum play a game of "i'll just keep on making posts until the other party tires out, and declare a victory". I just skipped all that rabble.


I have definitely called on Legend in the past, and it's possible that because I don't even address his posts, I think even less of him than Yoda.






DE Sidious? Or Sidious.


No, what the majority of you do is continue posting, as stated above. I may look like a jackass because I'm direct, but that's a hell of a lot better than spending 50 pages regurgitating arguments people believe to be valid.

For ten pages in the DE Sidious vs. Vitiate thread (can't link it; low post count), you and I went back and forth, and that was fairly recent. Do you consider yourself among those 'dumbasses'? Because it seems to me that there's no shortage of threads in which you've argued with or insulted your opponents exhaustively.



Given your use of qualifying statements like "number one" and "superiority", context dictates all the above: Clearly ROTS Sidious isn't number one, since DE Sidious was more more learned and ultimately more powerful. So if Vitiate is "number one" then he'd have to be more powerful than any incarnation of Sidious.



Direct isn't an issue. You can be direct by minimizing excess verbiage; Lord knows that I've been far more direct in the past year because, like you, I'm largely uninterested in spending dozens and dozens of pages arguing back and forth. Which is why my output has decreased tremendously and why, if you recall or search, I usually make a point to cut to the meat of an argument.

There is a difference between being direct and being an ass. Being direct requires cutting to the heart of the matter, making your case, and moving on if and when you feel the opponent isn't getting it. But in this case, you return to all threads Vitiate and take your shots, but refuse to actually "make the case." That's not being direct, that's being an ass. You make the time to post multiple insults to these people, but can't take the time to actually defend your views? Why?

Nitpicking is fine; Zamp. doesn't like it, but it's a valid form of debate: a person's overall point can be correct and yet there can be the presence of false or dishonest details within his or her argument.

Which is my point: argue what thread you want, however you want, for whomever you want, but don't be an ass. Make the case, counselor.

Originally posted by Tantra
For ten pages in the DE Sidious vs. Vitiate thread (can't link it; low post count), you and I went back and forth, and that was fairly recent. Do you consider yourself among those 'dumbasses'? Because it seems to me that there's no shortage of threads in which you've argued with or insulted your opponents exhaustively.
I don't recall us going back and forth over Vitiate and DE Sidious. And I consider myself impatient and rude because I'm quick to insult, but I prefer that over 50 wasted pages of stupidity.




You're going to have to be more precise with exactly what I said. I recall arguing against ROTS Sidious but not DE Sidious.



You're kidding right? You're more than willing to spend pages arguing.


I tend to make my case then insult. To me, it's far quicker than failing at an argument, then continuing to argue the same thing.

There's no real point anymore. Unless I'm arguing with the likes of you, Janus, Nai, or the homosexual (could be all of you), I'm wasting my time. The other clowns just post retarded arguments, congratulate themselves, then post them again.

Again, I can't link. But the thread is on this page, and we begin debating on page 9 and don't stop 'til page 20.



Not dozens of pages and certainly not with the zeal of someone like LeGenD or Nephthys or Lightsnake. Not anymore, anyways.



From the Revan Spoilers thread at ROK:







If there's no real point anymore, then why take the time and energy to trash talk and insult and take potshots?

SW_LeGenD is one of, if not the, most obstinate posters I've ever encountered on the whole of KMC. And you know how I handle him now? I don't talk to him. I don't bother arguing with him and I don't insult him. If a person isn't worth your time, then ignore them. Because anything else contradicts that idea.



I'm not asking you to argue for pages and pages and pages. What I'm asking for is for you to stop bashing people whose opinions differ from you, at least if you won't or can't be bothered to provide an argument yourself. If you want to criticize or nitpick instead of getting into multi-post arguments, fine, but spare everyone the insults.

That's all I'm asking and I think that's fair.

@ Tantra

Mind your own business. If you don't talk to me then no need to quote me again and again in your posts.

I am not biased and base my assumptions on sound logic, if no evidence is available.

I use the below analogy to highlight the difference between people like you and me:

It is people like you who came up with 'grenades and guns' based argument to represent Revan before his novel came out. The wiser ones like me argued that Revan was a Jedi and would have used 'lightsaber and the Force' to accomplish his feats.

Guess what? My views are now in line with established canon.

First judge yourself before you judge others.

See? He generously provides an example to help illuminate my point. It would be painfully easy to point out the endless examples of his bias, as others have done before. It would be easy to insult him, mock him, ridicule him, and ensure that no one takes him seriously. That's what I used to do when he first started posting.

But now it's easy to nod, smile, and move on.

Originally posted by Tantra
See? He generously provides an example to help illuminate my point. It would be painfully easy to point out the endless examples of his bias, as others have done before. It would be easy to insult him, mock him, ridicule him, and ensure that no one takes him seriously. That's what I used to do when he first started posting.

But now it's easy to nod, smile, and move on.
Here is the reality: everybody is biased to a certain degree in this forum.

Only difference is that fans of PT/OT assume that they are wiser and not biased.

In the past; while I have provided my share of views, I still treaded within the boundary of the established canon. I accepted that Luke is the strongest Jedi in whole of mythos. However, I have an official source which contradicts with this assumption. Open your eyes. Star Wars is not so black and white.

I have also come to learn that there is a history of misrepresentation of canonical materials and information here and even members like Lightsnake are guilty of it.

I have explored Star Wars related material and now am capable of exposing the propaganda of PT/OT fans.

Want me to quote examples? Such lies will no longer work against me and I will expose them at any given opportunity.

I try to be as nuetral as possible. Unfortunately, biased PT/OT fans would not recognize this because they want me to accept their beliefs without questions.

Stop squabbling boys please.

Will you spank me if I don't stop?

gdGdXVm4SN8

Thats right pig. And heres the paddle!

Thanks Neph. I like your humor.

Even though you often disappoint me with that b b bra in of yours.

Ok, I guess I said it initially. My position has somewhat changed since then.



This would make sense if I insulted people off the bat. My pattern usually involves providing an argument, and if I see the person is an idiot who just intends to waste post space, I get to insultin'. But that comes after a while.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
This. Although I am a bit hesitant to even give Vitiate the force battle.
Really?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Although Vitiate has displayed mind control powers on others on a scale that ROTS has not yet demonstrated,
Yes.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I doubt he will be mind controling Darth Sidious anytime soon. By the age of 17, Palpatine had raised psychic walls so strong that they were impenetrable for Plagueis, who was one of the most powerful force user of that time (this was before Palpatine had any training at all).
Can you list some notable mind dominating feats of Plagueis?

You need to establish that Plagueis was as much proficient with mind controlling powers as Vitiate was.

"Once they arrived on Nathema, they quickly fell under Lord Vitiate's control. He dominated their minds, crushed their resistance. He turned them into slaves to his will, forcing them to participate in the most complex ritual of Sith sorcery ever attempted." (Nyriss to Scourge regarding fate of 100 Sith Lords)

"The Emperor has the ability to dominate and enslave the minds of those who serve him," she explained. "It's one of the reasons he has ruled for so long. Those that are transformed become fanatical zealots who live to serve; they are not capable of betraying him." (Nyriss to Scourge)

"We underestimated his power. When we confronted him, he didn't even have to fight us. Instead, he broke our wills. He dominated our minds, turning us into puppets to do his bidding. He sent us back to the Republic as the vanguard of his invasion, with instructions to report back when all resistance was crushed." (Revan recalls his previous confrontation with Vitiate along with Malak)

Beat this.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Later on during Palpatine's apprenticeship, him and Plagueis, as Lightsnake has brought out in another thread, went on to challenge the force for sovereignty, and by the power of their will they managed to succeed in causing an imbalance in favor of the dark side, without being destroyed by the force.
How does this proves that Sidious' is immune to mind controlling powers? Can the Force break the will of powerful individuals and turn them into its mindless servents?

This feat is invalid within the context of this fight.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Sidious lightning at this point was powerful enough to reduce a giant sith worm to ash, and strong enough to rip Yoda's lightsaber from his hands.
Yoda was able to block Sidious' Lightning with his bare hands.

In comparison;

Revan, who has demonstrated even a higher mastery in this regard, was seriously injured by signature Force Lightning of Vitiate which was a swirling storm of pure dark side energy and comprised of 12 purplish bolts. Vitiate could channel more and more powerful into it any single opponent. Worse would have happened if T3-M4 would not have stepped in.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Sidious also took on the full brunt of his own lightning to the face without it even weakening him, the same exact lightning that nearly overwhelmed Windu's lightsaber defense.
And this is why he was crying that I'm weak?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Vitiate would have some serious trouble trying to overcome Sidious with the force, whereas Sidious holds a huge advantage with a lightsaber.
Not at all.

Vitiate is a Force prodigy;

Scourge expected them to search him, or at least instruct him to turn over his weapons. But Yarri and the others simply stood at attention, waiting for him to enter. The fact that they showed no concern over letting an armed Sith Lord speak to the Emperor face-to-face without any kind of preparation was a testament to the Emperor's unfathomable power.

&

A tremor rippled through the air as the Emperor unleashed the full power of the Force against the defenseless droid. T3 never stood a chance. The little droid exploded into a million pieces, internal circuits and external casing obliterated in a single instant.

Even several powerful Jedi (simultaneously) were no match for him;

voh2VOb-B0w

&

"I said he killed them all," Scourge replied. (Scourge to Revan regarding fate of 9 remaining Dark Council members)

Vitiaye even has the capability to creat illusions in combat situations.

Vitiate' command of the Force is such that he did not had to rely on the lightsaber to kill his opponents. ROTS Sidious will not get a chance for lightsaber duel in a fight without restrictions in this case.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yoda was able to block Sidious' Lightning with his bare hands.

In comparison;

Revan, who has demonstrated even a higher mastery in this regard, was seriously injured by signature Force Lightning of Vitiate which was a swirling storm of pure dark side energy and comprised of 12 purplish bolts. Vitiate could channel more and more powerful into it any single opponent. Worse would have happened if T3-M4 would not have stepped in.

Yoda being able to do that hardly proves that Sidious is weak.

And Vitiate had to charge up his lightning in order to overwhelm Revan. I don't know that Sidious would be stupid enough to A) Let Vitiate charge up his attacks unmolested or B) Attempt to block Vitiates lightning with his bare hands rather than with a lightsaber when the former in much more difficult to do.

That said, Vitiates power in Force Lightning is among the very greatest imo.

Closed due to people engaging with socks.