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So because a 8-year old dressed "immodestly", those most righteous of Jews, the orthodox, decided to send their "modesty patrols" to go throw rocks at her and try and scare her out of going to school.

I swear, before people target Sharia, we should look at the stuff being done by our "allies".

Read about this a week or so back.

Will this get any attention on the major news outlets? Perhaps, but as everyone knows Israel is a beacon of light and hope in the Middle East and shame on anyone who thinks different.

Also lol @ Israel still being in the Rosa Park phase.

Originally posted by King Kandy
So because a 8-year old dressed "immodestly", those most righteous of Jews, the orthodox, decided to send their "modesty patrols" to go throw rocks at her and try and scare her out of going to school.

I swear, before people target Sharia, we should look at the stuff being done by our "allies". What always amazes/saddens me about things like this is how the "religious" utterly fail to see how their actions contradict their professed faith. This is religionism pretty much at its worst.

"The essence of Judaism is this: what you don't like, don't do to anyone else. Everything else written is commentary."
-- Rabbi Hillel

Originally posted by Mindship
What always amazes/saddens me about things like this is how the "religious" utterly fail to see how their actions contradict the very essence of their professed faith. This is religionism pretty much at its worst.
Have you actually read the Old Testament?

That shit is crazy. The fact Israelis invented Krav Maga makes perfect sense if you consider they were supposedly made in the image of a Celestial War Criminal.

Originally posted by Mindship
What always amazes/saddens me about things like this is how the "religious" utterly fail to see how their actions contradict their professed faith. This is religionism pretty much at its worst.

"The essence of Judaism is this: what you don't like, don't do to anyone else. Everything else written is commentary."
-- Rabbi Hillel
But they think that they would approve of getting stoned if they were in her situation. These people are in another dimension.

The Israeli government and most Israelis have issues with these ultra-clowns.

They insist Israel bend to their wishes, yet refuse to serve in the military and avoid paying taxes.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Have you actually read the Old Testament?

That shit is crazy. The fact Israelis invented Krav Maga makes perfect sense if you consider they were supposedly made in the image of a Celestial War Criminal. Originally posted by King Kandy
These people are in another dimension.
Hey, where else you gonna find a Celestial War Criminal?

Pity the religionist, that he thinks he does God's work.

Originally posted by Robtard
The Israeli government and most Israelis have issues with these ultra-clowns.

They insist Israel bend to their wishes, yet refuse to serve in the military and avoid paying taxes.
I don't understand how they put up with these guys going to Yeshiva on government money while not doing anything to support the country. Every sane Israeli should get active and give these nuts a boot.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I don't understand how they put up with these guys going to Yeshiva on government money while not doing anything to support the country. Every sane Israeli should get active and give these nuts a boot.

From what I was told (by Israelis), they have shit-loads of money and support from Jewish groups in the US, that gives them political pull.

Originally posted by Mindship
What always amazes/saddens me about things like this is how the "religious" utterly fail to see how their actions contradict their professed faith.

Except that they don't contradict their religion.

The book is not the religion. The beliefs of the people are.

This is a problem I see with a lot of people, mostly atheists but really anyone who is talking about a religion other than their own. You don't get to decide what a religion (or more commonly a particular sect of a religion) believes, the people practicing it do. If everyone in this sect or the relevant leaders of it say girls should be stoned to death for the way they dress and call it their religion then that is the religion. It's unfortunate and it doesn't tell you much about the superset of the faith (in this case Judaism) but that's how it works.

It also tends to forget the often elaborate justifications that people have for beliefs that seem obviously contradictory. The most dramatic example I've heard of is that while a few cannibalistic societies have been found there are supposedly no known cannibalistic cultures. All of them believe that the people they eat are secret witches or somesuch. Similarly the people attacking this girl may feel her violation of custom puts her outside the protections of their religious law.

The point being: they're assholes but not arbitarily so.



Would it be too authoritarian of the government to make these people stop?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Except that they don't contradict their religion.

The book is not the religion. The beliefs of the people are.

This is a problem I see with a lot of people, mostly atheists but really anyone who is talking about a religion other than their own. You don't get to decide what a religion (or more commonly a particular sect of a religion) believes, the people practicing it do. If everyone in this sect or the relevant leaders of it say girls should be stoned to death for the way they dress and call it their religion then that is the religion. It's unfortunate and it doesn't tell you much about the superset of the faith (in this case Judaism) but that's how it works.

It also tends to forget the often elaborate justifications that people have for beliefs that seem obviously contradictory. The most dramatic example I've heard of is that while a few cannibalistic societies have been found there are supposedly no known cannibalistic cultures. All of them believe that the people they eat are secret witches or somesuch. Similarly the people attacking this girl may feel her violation of custom puts her outside the protections of their religious law.

The point being: they're assholes but not arbitarily so.



Would it be too authoritarian of the government to make these people stop?
James Rachels discussed the shortcomings of Cultural Relativism and argued that at their core moral notions are universal across all known cultures and the differences in practices and norms stems from different perspectives and standards.

Additionally, Montaigne's essay On Cannibals describes how in a South American (or Caribbean, I can't remember) tribe cannibalism was seen not so much as murder and turning a person into food but rather a form of respect to your defeated enemy, by eating them you showed you desired their strength and all too likely his relatives would come and kill you and eat you to take your strength and regain the strength of their dead relative. Montaigne seemed to think that the cannibals far from disrespecting human life simply had a different way or respecting it that most cultures would find barbaric or disgusting.

Also, as a sidenote I love the part of the essay where a cannibal taken to France asks the French why the king (at that time a child was ruling France) is in charge and not the big, tall, strong soldiers who protected him and also asked why the poor people who lived in gutters didn't set fire to the homes of the rich. He just couldn't understand European social contract.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Except that they don't contradict their religion.

The book is not the religion. The beliefs of the people are.

This is a problem I see with a lot of people, mostly atheists but really anyone who is talking about a religion other than their own. You don't get to decide what a religion (or more commonly a particular sect of a religion) believes, the people practicing it do. If everyone in this sect or the relevant leaders of it say girls should be stoned to death for the way they dress and call it their religion then that is the religion. It's unfortunate and it doesn't tell you much about the superset of the faith (in this case Judaism) but that's how it works.

The point being: they're assholes but not arbitarily so.
I disagree. We're talking basic human decency. That was the whole point of Rabbi Hillel's statement (I am Jewish, btw). And these religionists fail miserably.

Originally posted by Mindship
I disagree.

Disagree with what?

Originally posted by Mindship
And these guys are being rectal orifices because they think their interpretation of what it means to be Jewish makes them better than everyone else, even other Jews like myself (hell, they wouldn't even consider me being Jewish).

Yes, I said that.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Disagree with what?This...Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
...they don't contradict their religion. To treat someone -- a child, yet -- with such disdain...this is not what Judaism is about. Netanyahu even mentions this in the article. I agree with that sentiment, with that of Hillel. IMO, the truly pious and reverent (and they don't have to be Jewish) are above this behavior.

Dude, these guys are considered shameful most of all in the eyes of other Jews. These Orthodox parasites who literally do nothing for a living other than judge other Jews and made everyone miserable need to be kicked out of the Knesset and be forced to work for a living like every other member of society.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
Dude, these guys are considered shameful most of all in the eyes of other Jews. These Orthodox parasites who literally do nothing for a living other than judge other Jews and made everyone miserable need to be kicked out of the Knesset and be forced to work for a living like every other member of society.

ie the Jew-version of the Phelps.

Originally posted by Mindship
This...To treat someone -- a child, yet -- with such disdain...this is not what Judaism is about.

There's no such thing as Judaism.

They happen to be part of a different sect. You don't define its beliefs, the believers do.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
There's no such thing as Judaism. I have no idea where you are with this.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
Dude, these guys are considered shameful most of all in the eyes of other Jews. These Orthodox parasites who literally do nothing for a living other than judge other Jews and made everyone miserable need to be kicked out of the Knesset and be forced to work for a living like every other member of society.
The Israeli government does nothing to stop it, blame them.

Originally posted by Mindship
I have no idea where you are with this.

It's divided into many different things.

Saying that "Judaism is . . ." is pretty pointless because there really isn't anything unifed enough to refer to that broadly. Your particular interpretation or one particular rabbi's interpretation do not reign supreme.

It's the exact same fallacy these people are making when they decide this girl isn't following Judaism properly.

You might as well say that Granny Smiths aren't apples because you prefer red apples.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
It's divided into many different things.

Saying that "Judaism is . . ." is pretty pointless because there really isn't such as thing as Judaism to refer to. Your particular interpretation or one particular rabbi's interpretation do not reign supreme.

It's the exact same fallacy these people are making when they decide this girl isn't following Judaism properly.
The common thread shared among all Jews is the belief in the One True God (as opposed to idol worship). This is expressed in the first part of the Shema. The details (the "commentary" may change, but the core is universal. This is what defines, and always has defined, the faith/culture of Judaism.

The beauty of Hillel's statement is that it translates this belief into human interaction: the best way to honor this God we hold so dear is for us to be nice to each other. It's that simple.

Those "Jews" are an aberration, like "Christians" who burn crosses on lawns, or "Muslims" who turn themselves into bombs.

If I grok you correctly, you're taking a moral relativist position ("Whose to say who's version of Judaism is the right one?". I'm not a moral relativist; neither am I an atheist, so I do believe there is a right way to behave.

Netanyahu said it best:

"This is a phenomenon that contradicts Jewish tradition and the spirit of the Bible," Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Tuesday evening, "with one of the most central and important among them being: Love your neighbor as yourself,"


Originally posted by Mindship
What always amazes/saddens me about things like this is how the "religious" utterly fail to see how their actions contradict their professed faith. This is religionism pretty much at its worst.

"The essence of Judaism is this: what you don't like, don't do to anyone else. Everything else written is commentary."
-- Rabbi Hillel



Being on the same page is always nice.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
It's divided into many different things.

Saying that "Judaism is . . ." is pretty pointless because there really isn't anything unifed enough to refer to that broadly. Your particular interpretation or one particular rabbi's interpretation do not reign supreme.

It's the exact same fallacy these people are making when they decide this girl isn't following Judaism properly.

You might as well say that Granny Smiths aren't apples because you prefer red apples.

I agree with your point on this but only partially.

With Christianity, which by definition means you are a follower of Christ, then you have no choice but to hippie it out: love the crap out of everyone, give away tons of money and possessions, "turn the other cheek", and love your enemies.

With Christians, you really can play "gotcha" like the atheists you spoke of. That is one of my major criticisms of Christains and their ugly ways: they say they believe one thing but do the opposite. I am not aware of a "turn the other cheek" and "love your enemy" clause in any official Jewish texts. Meaning, there is not really a perfect "gotcha" thing you can do to ultra-orthodox Jews like you can anyone that calls themself a Christian (and accepts the NT as "the word".

Originally posted by King Kandy
The Israeli government does nothing to stop it, blame them. I do, these guys have disproportionate control of the Israeli government and ironically violate the golden rule on an almost daily basis.

THIS IS RELIGION'S FAULT

*is a secular humanist egalitarian socialist*

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Perhaps, but as everyone knows Israel is a beacon of light and hope in the Middle East Yeah! And George Bush was the most intelligent president who ever walked the earth.

Sorry, couldnt resist.

Originally posted by King Kandy
So because a 8-year old dressed "immodestly", those most righteous of Jews, the orthodox, decided to send their "modesty patrols" to go throw rocks at her and try and scare her out of going to school.

I swear, before people target Sharia, we should look at the stuff being done by our "allies".

I argee we should. But we attend to look at others instead. That is one reason we always seem to be in war with some country.

Originally posted by SamZED
Yeah! And George Bush was the most intelligent president who ever walked the earth.

Sorry, couldnt resist.

Well it IS the only free and democratic nation in the Middle East. Lebanon used to be on that list, not that long ago.

I would hate to be a girl in the middle-east.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Except that they don't contradict their religion.

The book is not the religion. The beliefs of the people are.

This is a problem I see with a lot of people, mostly atheists but really anyone who is talking about a religion other than their own. You don't get to decide what a religion (or more commonly a particular sect of a religion) believes, the people practicing it do. If everyone in this sect or the relevant leaders of it say girls should be stoned to death for the way they dress and call it their religion then that is the religion. It's unfortunate and it doesn't tell you much about the superset of the faith (in this case Judaism) but that's how it works.

It also tends to forget the often elaborate justifications that people have for beliefs that seem obviously contradictory. The most dramatic example I've heard of is that while a few cannibalistic societies have been found there are supposedly no known cannibalistic cultures. All of them believe that the people they eat are secret witches or somesuch. Similarly the people attacking this girl may feel her violation of custom puts her outside the protections of their religious law.

The point being: they're assholes but not arbitarily so.



Would it be too authoritarian of the government to make these people stop?

I don't think it's the atheists fault. A lot, if not most Christians profess the Bible to be the word of God and to believe what it says. If a person does that, it is perfectly sound to dissect what that book says. What seldolmy (never) happens is an atheist telling a religious person that the Bible is immoral or bullshit and said religious person saying "well, I don't believe in the Bible" and the atheist saying "whatever, here's why the Bible is bullshit/immoral".

Doesn't happen.

So yes, there's a lot of people professing to believe something written in a book, and then it turns out they arbitrarily don't believe in certain passages, even though they pretended (and often continue to pretend) to believe it all as the truth and law.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I don't think it's the atheists fault. A lot, if not most Christians profess the Bible to be the word of God and to believe what it says. If a person does that, it is perfectly sound to dissect what that book says. What seldolmy (never) happens is an atheist telling a religious person that the Bible is immoral or bullshit and said religious person saying "well, I don't believe in the Bible" and the atheist saying "whatever, here's why the Bible is bullshit/immoral".

Doesn't happen.

So yes, there's a lot of people professing to believe something written in a book, and then it turns out they arbitrarily don't believe in certain passages, even though they pretended (and often continue to pretend) to believe it all as the truth and law.

I don't know about that. Christians believe Bible is divinely inspired, but not the actual word of God. (as I understand it.)
While I don't doubt that there are indeed Christians who believe Bible is the actual word of God, I think it's presumptuous to say most do.

I think it's because Christians believe that Bible is guidance rather than the actual word, that Christianity has managed to survive this far.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I don't know about that. Christians believe Bible is divinely inspired, but not the actual word of God. (as I understand it.)
While I don't doubt that there are indeed Christians who believe Bible is the actual word of God, I think it's presumptuous to say most do.

I think it's because Christians believe that Bible is guidance rather than the actual word, that Christianity has managed to survive this far.

Well, "word of God" is not a phrase I coined, but one that is commonly used by Christians. You are right that most Christians don't believe it to be directly written by God, but many do believe that the laws and teachings within it are what they have to follow. And as far as I know that's what they mean when they say "word of God".

My point anyways is that Sym is right about religious beliefs being personal, I just don't think he's right in blaming atheists for not understanding this, and for having the arguments that result from that. Like I said, many Christians say openly that they believe the Bible to be truth (to what extend it is metaphor vs. literal is another discussion), and atheists debating Christians are not misinterpreting them or treating them unfairly by dissecting the book that Christians themselves consider the foundation of their belief.

I guess basically what I was trying to say is that Sym singling out atheists in this is unfair and disingenuous, because a) it doesn't happen that often and b) when it happens it isn't mostly done by atheists (Christians, making generalizations about Islam due to the Qu'ran, happens just as much as atheists making generalizations about Christians based on the Bible (and again, like I said, in most cases, it is a justified point of discussion))

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, "word of God" is not a phrase I coined, but one that is commonly used by Christians. You are right that most Christians don't believe it to be directly written by God, but many do believe that the laws and teachings within it are what they have to follow. And as far as I know that's what they mean when they say "word of God".

My point anyways is that Sym is right about religious beliefs being personal, I just don't think he's right in blaming atheists for not understanding this, and for having the arguments that result from that. Like I said, many Christians say openly that they believe the Bible to be truth (to what extend it is metaphor vs. literal is another discussion), and atheists debating Christians are not misinterpreting them or treating them unfairly by dissecting the book that Christians themselves consider the foundation of their belief.

I guess basically what I was trying to say is that Sym singling out atheists in this is unfair and disingenuous, because a) it doesn't happen that often and b) when it happens it isn't mostly done by atheists (Christians, making generalizations about Islam due to the Qu'ran, happens just as much as atheists making generalizations about Christians based on the Bible (and again, like I said, in most cases, it is a justified point of discussion))

I see what you mean, you made a valid point and I agree.

Although I will disagree with the Qur'an comment. Qur'an and Bible are in fact very different to both religions and are not in comparison to each other (according to their believers).

While we can find Christians and dominations who will say Bible is a ''metaphor'' or divinely inspired or what not, we won't be able to find a Muslims or Muslim sects who will believe this about Qur'an. Qur'an is the absolute, unchanged and perfect word of God to Muslims and as such cannot be challenged. Ever.

But I will add this in regards to the original post - I have not yet encountered Jews who believe in the Torah in the absolute kind of way. Given, I have never encountered or been friends with Orthodox Jews either...so that's probably the main reason...

I can't see Israel going in this direction, although, anything's possible these days.

Originally posted by King Kandy
So because a 8-year old dressed "immodestly", those most righteous of Jews, the orthodox, decided to send their "modesty patrols" to go throw rocks at her and try and scare her out of going to school.

I swear, before people target Sharia, we should look at the stuff being done by our "allies".

jewish orthdox areas like Borough Park, Brooklyn put signs on trees that are next to bus stops, the signs read: men have the right of way at all times..
I'd try and sue the city for the bulling posts on their trees..