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How will Maul do in an All Out battle against:
ROTS Jedi Anakin
or
ROTS Sith Anakin/Vader

Personally I think Maul would lost to Jedi Anakin however he would stand a chance against ROTS Vader due to Anakin's emotional state.

It'd be a helluva battle, but I think Jedi Anakin would ultimately lose to Maul. I won't draw from novel sources that I haven't read/remembered, but judging from movie showings, I'm not very impressed by what little we saw of Jedi Anakin's combat prowess.


And ditto the "helluva" descriptive for Vader vs. Maul, but I see Vader winning. A far more masterful defensive swordsmen than Maul who had the bonus of 13 years on-hand experience and knowledge of Vadakin was steadily losing the battle of his life every step of the way. I don't see Maul lasting as long, but I do see the entire encounter being far more aggressive and destructive.


Clear-as-a-bell and fresh-from-his nap Zonakin would do to an equally-rested Maul in 30 seconds what he did to a tired Dooku in 5.

Patience guys. Only a couple more months before we see what Maul is really capable of. Then debate and hate all you like

Hate?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Hate?

Not you personally. But there seems to be a lot of Maul Hate out there. But Watever.

Maul solos.

Maul easily. Come talk to me when Anakin's ever defeated someone whose skills with a lightsaber were "second to none".

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Maul easily. Come talk to me when Anakin's ever defeated someone whose skills with a lightsaber were "second to none".

Yeah no hate here! Lol

FYI I think Count Dooku's fencing skills probably were second to none

Anakin and Maul are similar in that they are both primal, vicious combatants with technical skill that rivals their ferocity. Maul is a master of Juyo, which requires its users to be "high end masters of multiple forms" and Anakin/Vader is said as early as The Rise of Darth Vader to borrow techniques and maneuvers from all forms of lightsaber combat. While Maul enjoys a definite advantage in athleticism and martial arts, and a probable advantage in pure technical ability, even his enormous endurance is outclassed by Anakin's unique resistance to combat fatigue, which outstrips even those similar powers afforded by the Sith (at least in the form of Count Dooku).

Maul's Force powers aren't known to be prodigious, but his battles in The Phantom Menace depict him using precise applications of telekinesis (manipulating the severed droid arm to open the doors to the shield generator room, giving him more room to maneuver against Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon; and his sudden Force push that toppled Obi-Wan into the melting pit). Anakin is not shown to be nearly as precise, but his powers, which are tethered so closely to his emotions, are potent when unleashes.

Tl;dr version: Maul is more skilled as a duelist and fighter; Anakin is stronger physically and in the Force. And as we know from Kas'im and Bane, this could be surprisingly close.

You should have called yourself 'EdgeOfGlory', 'cause you're hanging on a moment of truth.

Lord Lucien
You should have called yourself 'EdgeOfGlory', 'cause you're hanging on a moment of truth.

I do not occupy glory's edge, but its very center. And I'm pretty sure the lyric is, "hanging on a moment of truthwith you."

Originally posted by EdgeOfTheMoment
I do not occupy glory's edge, but its very center. And I'm pretty sure the lyric is, "hanging on a moment of truthwith you." Not the first time.

I have been foiled by Gaga!

Not the first time.

It would be a good battle, but Anakin wins

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Maul easily. Come talk to me when Anakin's ever defeated someone whose skills with a lightsaber were "second to none".

Count Dooku comes to mind.

Jedi Anakin is a winner, i think. But it would be a good fight. Sith Anakin (before Mustafar) can destroy Maul. Anakin (a few months after Mustafar) isn't even close to Maul. And Sith Anakin (one, or few years after Mustafar) is a little better then Maul (far better with the force, and weaker with saber).

Not sure why people think Mustafar Anakin is so powerful.

He's the one who couldn't over power Obi-Wan, when people like Ventress have done so. And the likes of Dooku have done so with the upmost ease.

Its ROTS Jedi Anakin who tooled Dooku that I see Uber tooling Maul.

Jedi Anakin was being pushed back by Dooku. And Vadakin was overpowering Obi-Wan on Mustafar--it was only Kenobi's deep understanding of Anakin's technique and abilities that kept him at bay.

It depends of the point of view. In my opinion ROTS Jedi Anakin is more close to Obi-Wan, and just like his master, he wasn't able to defeat Dooku. Only his aggression, anger and hate let him defeat Dooku. In novel he is just better, but in the movie... as jedi Anakin, not really. He fight with Kenobi on his side and can't breaks Dooku's defense... + he gets two kicks (first in a face - we see Palpatine's face i this moment, if i good remeber). So - for me - Anakin in a second half of this duel, fight like a sith - not jedi. And definitely he is in the best mental condition. Yeah, Anakin from duel with Dooku >>>> Anakin form duel with Kenobi.

I dnt remember Dooku pushing ROTS Jedi Anakin back with the exception of that one kick (even if it was an awsome kick). In fact after the force attacks removing Obi-Wan from the fight twice, it was Anakin who was driving Dooku back one on one both times.

I also dnt remember Dooku kicking Anakin in the face. I only remember the one kick by Dooku.

Bearing in mind the CW fights, my guess would be that ROTS Anakin would have defeated Count Dooku even without Obi-Wan's aid.

The RotS novel as seen from Dooku's perspective has Anakin go through three separate mental phases in their duel. After Dooku stops fooling around and knocks out Kenobi, Anakin becomes angry and starts legitimately pushing him back--that's "Angry Anakin". Dooku uses Dun Moch, taunting Anakin to "use his anger, something no Jedi would do" (to paraphrase), prompting Anakin to shy away from and repress his anger---that's "Jedi Anakin". Eventually he turns Super Saiyan and brings Dooku down in seconds---"Zone Anakin".

To an extent that interferes with what we see in the film, and I don't know where canon policy officially stands on stuff like that. Suffice to say, the greatest extrapolation we have of characters' fighting prowess comes from this source.


But thanks to the scene jumping of the film, and the writing in the novel, the Anakin vs. Obi-Wan duel isn't as victim to such inconsistencies. Twice before I've quoted whole passages from the book, so I refuse to do it again. To sum it up, "Vader-Anakin" was giving Obi-Wan hell (from Obi-Wan's perspective no less) and showed no signs of fatigue. He showed such power and skill in their fight that Obi-Wan had to scrape the bottom of his Barrel of Tricks just to stay alive. My wording, not his.

Zonakin is the clear-as-bell, uninhibited, "perfect" Anakin. Vader is the relentless powerhouse of emotion, but lacks the clarity of focus, which would have killed Kenobi not too long in to their duel. But lacking that, and given Kenobi's bonus of familiarity, he lived.

^ Yeah your right about Anakin giving Obi-Wan hell. I never denied that. IIRC the novel states at one point Obi-Wan was barley keeping up with Anakin using TK to throw stuff at him.

But I still think giving Obi-Wan hell is a long long way from tooling the guy who finishes off Obi-Wan with extreme ease.

I also get ROTS Jedi Anakin going through different mental phases. But I still dnt remember any point where he was able to deal with Anakin with any kind of ease. The "Destroyer droid with a lightsaber" quote comes to mind, and this before Anakin went into a rage.

Add this to the fights we've seen of Dooku vs Anakin in Clone Wars animation, I just find it difficult to see that fight in ROTS going any other way, with or without Obi-Wan. Best case scenario for Dooku I could see him fighting ROTS Anakin to a stalemate. But that might just be me.

Of course on the other hand you could argue that if Ventress in a bit of a rage can Force choke and levitate Anakin, then an all out Dooku (with Force attacks) should destroy him (hypothetically).

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ Yeah your right about Anakin giving Obi-Wan hell. I never denied that. IIRC the novel states at one point Obi-Wan was barley keeping up with Anakin using TK to throw stuff at him.

But I still think giving Obi-Wan hell is a long long way from tooling the guy who finishes off Obi-Wan with extreme ease.

I also get ROTS Jedi Anakin going through different mental phases. But I still dnt remember any point where he was able to deal with Anakin with any kind of ease. The "Destroyer droid with a lightsaber" quote comes to mind, and this before Anakin went into a rage.

Add this to the fights we've seen of Dooku vs Anakin in Clone Wars animation, I just find it difficult to see that fight in ROTS going any other way, with or without Obi-Wan. Best case scenario for Dooku I could see him fighting ROTS Anakin to a stalemate. But that might just be me.

Of course on the other hand you could argue that if Ventress in a bit of a rage can Force choke and levitate Anakin, then an all out Dooku (with Force attacks) should destroy him (hypothetically).

The new Clone Wars utterly kills the powerscales.
For example, Grievous having trouble with Adi-Gallia when at Boz Pity he utterly destroys her.
Kit Fisto fighting on par with Grievous, but losing to Assaj. But Grievous annihilating both Ventress and Durge simultaneously.
Anakin should really be no match for Tyrannus who has been getting the shit treatment by this show. In fact, all of the villains sans Ventress have been made into a gimmick. Grievous went from outdueling 5 Jedi and sending an entire Arc platoon into retreat, to losing to Kit Fisto, his padawan and some clones in his own lair.

I think we're going to have to go the route most comic book geeks do and just accept that mostly power-levels take a back seat to convenience. Grievous is only as threatening as the writer wants him to be.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I think we're going to have to go the route most comic book geeks do and just accept that mostly power-levels take a back seat to convenience. Grievous is only as threatening as the writer wants him to be.

*sigh* Yeah. Still I think Dooku vs. Anakin would have ended in a victory for Tyranus ala TK.

It makes more sense in the novel as Dooku does try to use TK against him. Though I think he just throws some chairs at him.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Zonakin is the clear-as-bell, uninhibited, "perfect" Anakin. Vader is the relentless powerhouse of emotion, but lacks the clarity of focus, which would have killed Kenobi not too long in to their duel. But lacking that, and given Kenobi's bonus of familiarity, he lived.

I like your explanation of the two different mental states of Anakin.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I also get ROTS Jedi Anakin going through different mental phases. But I still dnt remember any point where he was able to deal with Anakin with any kind of ease. The "Destroyer droid with a lightsaber" quote comes to mind, and this before Anakin went into a rage.
He didn't. It was never easy for Dooku to face Anakin. Not even in AotC. But apparently, Dooku knows where Obi-Wan's 'Z' spot is, and wrecks him like a Putty every time.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The new Clone Wars utterly kills the powerscales.
For example, Grievous having trouble with Adi-Gallia when at Boz Pity he utterly destroys her.
Kit Fisto fighting on par with Grievous, but losing to Assaj. But Grievous annihilating both Ventress and Durge simultaneously.
Anakin should really be no match for Tyrannus who has been getting the shit treatment by this show. In fact, all of the villains sans Ventress have been made into a gimmick. Grievous went from outdueling 5 Jedi and sending an entire Arc platoon into retreat, to losing to Kit Fisto, his padawan and some clones in his own lair.

Yeah but the new clone wars is higher in canonicity than the sources of the events you have noted above, so the clone wars power level should take precedent. In other words Kit Fisto >/= Grievous, and Ventress is most probably > Greivous/Fisto.

Lets be honest. Greivous outdueling 5 Jedi hasn't really made sense since ROTS when Kenobi tooled him one on one.

I actually think the show's overall been good to Count Dooku. Yes there was that embarrasing moment of getting captured by a handful of pirates(one of whom went toe to toe with Skywalker at one point in the show), but overall it's given him some great feats/showings, the majority being in the Savage Opress trilogy.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah but the new clone wars is higher in canonicity than the sources of the events you have noted above, so the clone wars power level should take precedent. In other words Kit Fisto >/= Grievous, and Ventress is most probably > Greivous/Fisto.
See I'd agree with this except the Clone Wars makes it pretty clear that Grievous>/= Ventress from their interactions. For example during the Invasion of Kamino Ventress calls Grievous, and I quote, 'My Lord'. And when they have an argument Grievous pretty clearly states that the good Count placed him in command for a reason.


It sort of does because Kenobi was stated to be the perfect counter for him. Even members of the High Council like Yoda and Windu give Grievous credit.



That's true the Opress trilogy was good to him. But I just wish the directors would stop giving him bad duels with Skywalker. Like during the battle of Naboo why did he have to use Magna Guards to dispatch him.

*sigh* and let's not even talk about how Grievous was detained by Gungans.

Or how Dooku was detained by pirates.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
See I'd agree with this except the Clone Wars makes it pretty clear that Grievous>/= Ventress from their interactions. For example during the Invasion of Kamino Ventress calls Grievous, and I quote, 'My Lord'. And when they have an argument Grievous pretty clearly states that the good Count placed him in command for a reason.

Im not sure about this. He was in military command, yes, but we know his biggest asset is that he is a military genius so that kind of makes sense.

But I think Ventress made it pretty clear on Kamino that she's not afraid of him. She also made it clear she sees herself as GG's superior in combat by saying "Dooku may have taught you to swing a lightsaber but dnt think that makes you my equal", that was after GG himself admitting that Ventress is probably his equal IIRC.


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
It sort of does because Kenobi was stated to be the perfect counter for him. Even members of the High Council like Yoda and Windu give Grievous credit.

Maybe. Still seemed a huge downfall from outduelling 5 Jedi. And this was just the start of Grievous's downgrade.





Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
*sigh* and let's not even talk about how Grievous was detained by Gungans.

Lol Not his best moment!

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Or how Dooku was detained by pirates.

Definetely Not His Best Moment!! And not even anything to "Lol" about!!

You guys have your heads up your ass, Anakin slaughters Maul

Originally posted by playa1258
You guys have your heads up your ass, Anakin slaughters Maul I am nowhere near that flexible.





Yet.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

I also dnt remember Dooku kicking Anakin in the face. I only remember the one kick by Dooku.


Yeah, of course you don't. As i said, it was in the same moment, when we see Palpatine's face.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtg16YpXU9U&feature=related
3:02

^ Wow.. I honestly never noticed that.. Is it in the final cut??

You mean in Blu-ray version or smth? I've no idea, but probably not.

ROTS Anakin in both forms was vicious and forced Obi Wan back, only an error of judgement made him lose. Obi-Wan was otherwise finished. Maul is very very good, but Obi-Wan beat him in the end, whereas Anakin was closer to beating Obi-Wan than Maul was. Anakin would take Maul in the end, but it would be one of the most exhilerating battles in the whole of the franchise, IMO.

Of course Maul will loose. At the end of fight with Obi he had to go full defense and Obi wasn't even master at that time.

This fight in not that close, at all. The Anakin that fought Dooku the way its seen in the movie and described in the book. Maul, would not stand a chance. Anakin's force powers at that point, combined with his saber skills, only a very few could beat him a straight up fight. AOTC Anakin v Maul would actually be a better fight than this one.

^ Agree with everything but the last part. I dnt think AOTC Anakin vs Maul would be a good fight. I think CW Anakin vs Maul would be a close one. Although who knows, we may actually see that fight in a few weeks

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ Agree with everything but the last part. I dnt think AOTC Anakin vs Maul would be a good fight. I think CW Anakin vs Maul would be a close one. Although who knows, we may actually see that fight in a few weeks I believe we are in the last episode of this final arc.

^ The SW nerd in me is actually pretty excited to see Maul's return.

If Maul was trained as proper Sith he would have a good chance against Anakin. Actually, Vader did meet resurrected Maul and barely won him.
Of course many would argue that Vader got weaker after fight with Obi-Wan. Yes, he can't jump around like before but he still can be as attuned to the Force as before, plus his cybernetics give him much more strength. Lumya was more of a machine than Vader, yet, she was excellent fighter. Obi-Wan couldn't win Vader after all.

Originally posted by Arhael
If Maul was trained as proper Sith he would have a good chance against Anakin.

Im not sure where you got that Maul was not trained properly. He was trained by Sidious himself, and as far as I know his training was unparalleled. Although Maul was still fairly young at the time of TPM.

Originally posted by Arhael
Actually, Vader did meet resurrected Maul and barely won him.
Of course many would argue that Vader got weaker after fight with Obi-Wan. Yes, he can't jump around like before but he still can be as attuned to the Force as before, plus his cybernetics give him much more strength. Lumya was more of a machine than Vader, yet, she was excellent fighter. Obi-Wan couldn't win Vader after all.

Vader is roughly on par with Count Dooku. When Anakin tooled Dooku, he had reached the height of his power. It was all downhill from there.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Im not sure where you got that Maul was not trained properly. He was trained by Sidious himself, and as far as I know his training was unparalleled. Although Maul was still fairly young at the time of TPM.


From wookieepedia:
"Maul spent the first few years of his life in the care of droids in a secret location on Mustafar. A year after he was given over to the Sith, Sidious was granted permission from his own Master to train Maul as an apprentice. But in order to avoid breaking the Rule of Two, Sidious was only allowed to train the young Zabrak as a weapon; he was never trained to be a true Sith Lord in the same way as Plagueis and Sidious."




Why Obi couldn't best Vader then? 57 is not that old, Luke at such age was not a hint weaker. Or it's because Obi didn't practice?

Originally posted by Arhael
From wookieepedia:
"Maul spent the first few years of his life in the care of droids in a secret location on Mustafar. A year after he was given over to the Sith, Sidious was granted permission from his own Master to train Maul as an apprentice. But in order to avoid breaking the Rule of Two, Sidious was only allowed to train the young Zabrak as a weapon; he was never trained to be a true Sith Lord in the same way as Plagueis and Sidious."

I will have to look into this. But what was stopping Maul's training going further after Sidious killed his master??

Anyway as far as his combat training went it was pretty hardcore. That's what the comics have shown anyway. And I believe theres a quote somewhere about Maul's force and physical assisted abilities being pushed to their upmost during his training.




Originally posted by Arhael
Why Obi couldn't best Vader then? 57 is not that old, Luke at such age was not a hint weaker. Or it's because Obi didn't practice?

Im not sure what you mean. I said Vader was approx on par with Dooku. When was Obi-Wan ever a match for anyone in Count Dooku's tier?? The fact that Vader struggled to strike down Obi-Wan shows Old Ben was probably more powerful than his ROTS self.

Originally posted by Arhael
From wookieepedia:
"Maul spent the first few years of his life in the care of droids in a secret location on Mustafar. A year after he was given over to the Sith, Sidious was granted permission from his own Master to train Maul as an apprentice. But in order to avoid breaking the Rule of Two, Sidious was only allowed to train the young Zabrak as a weapon; he was never trained to be a true Sith Lord in the same way as Plagueis and Sidious."That doesn't have any bearing on his martial skills, though. It's the same deal with Mara Jade and Assaj Ventress. They were all trained in the art of fighting, but it was the philosophical mumbo jumbo of being a sith that was above their paygrade.


It's because while Vader spent twenty years being trained in the ways of the dark side by Sideous, and hunting down Jedi all over the place (ala Force Unleashed), Obi-Wan was sitting around in bars, wandering around the desert having heat strokes, and getting fat stalking Luke.

Not just any bars either. Water bars. That shit's addictive.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I will have to look into this. But what was stopping Maul's training going further after Sidious killed his master??

Anyway as far as his combat training went it was pretty hardcore. That's what the comics have shown anyway. And I believe theres a quote somewhere about Maul's force and physical assisted abilities being pushed to their upmost during his training. Sidious killed his master same year, when Maul died.
Yes, it was his combat skills and brutal strength that gave him an edge.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Im not sure what you mean. I said Vader was approx on par with Dooku. When was Obi-Wan ever a match for anyone in Count Dooku's tier?? The fact that Vader struggled to strike down Obi-Wan shows Old Ben was probably more powerful than his ROTS self.
Actually, by RotS Obi's combat skills were on level with Dooku or even above, Dooku won him only because of Force choke.

That's true. But still there was slight possibility that, if he received full knowledge, he would gain more power to draw on. Like Palpatine post RotS became so much more powerful not just because of his Force potential but with use of various Sith sorcery.

Originally posted by Arhael



Actually, by RotS Obi's combat skills were on level with Dooku or even above, Dooku won him only because of Force choke.



What you mean fencing skills?

No they were not. Dooku was the Master of Makashi, the ultimate fencing form.

And Obi-Wan certainly did not have more power in the Force either.

As for the force choke thing, remember just before the choke Dooku hits Obi-Wan's saber back to create the opening for the force choke.

This while kicking Anakin 10 feet away. I dnt remember Obi-Wan ever kicking another force user that far.

So no I dnt see ROTS Obi-Wan winning or even stalemating Dooku in a one on one fight without Force TK involved.

Originally posted by Arhael
Actually, by RotS Obi's combat skills were on level with Dooku or even above, Dooku won him only because of Force choke. The f*ck? No they weren't.

Well Obi-Wan stood up to Anakin for ages and defeated him in the end. Anakin defeated Dooku in under a minute.

QED.

Quantum electrodynamics, indeed.

That's what I meant. Obi was one of the best swordsmen of his time but Dooku totally outmatched him by using Force. I don't even think that Dooku was so much stronger in the Force, than Obi, he was just more talented in utilizing it, while Obi wasn't strong in defending against Force.


Mastery of forms is mostly irrelevant at that point. They are both Masters and had decades of experience in combat to be able to counter every possible move. Obi learned his weaknesses after fight at Geanosis.

Cin Drallig was master of 6 forms, Academy lightsaber instructor and finest swordsman, yet, Anakin killed him and his apprentice with ease and singlehandedly.
In saber fight between Obi and Dooku deciding factors would be natural abilities and talent.

Originally posted by Arhael
I don't even think that Dooku was so much stronger in the Force, than Obi

According to Path of Destruction Force power does vastly affect lightsaber prowess. And I can't quite agree with you that Dooku isn't more powerful than Kenobi.

Originally posted by Arhael

Actually, by RotS Obi's combat skills were on level with Dooku or even above, Dooku won him only because of Force choke.

WTF? Dooku is described as a one of the best duelist in order history, on par with Mace and Yoda. He was able to fight your Obi and Anakin at the same time.

And Obi doesn't defeat Anakin because of his skill. They both knows everything about each other, but with Anakin's mental condition it gives profits only for Kenobi. And soresu is a better form to fight Djem So user, then Makashi.
And at the end Obi was able to win, only because of high ground.

Originally posted by Arhael
That's what I meant. Obi was one of the best swordsmen of his time but Dooku totally outmatched him by using Force.

He had to take him out quick because he was having enough trouble against Anakin. So that doesn't prove anything about Dooku and Obi-Wan's Saber skills.

What we do know is Dooku has the power and skill to sword fight Yoda. I doubt Obi-Wan does.

You don't have to agree, it's just an opinion.


And Obi is described in very same way "his skill with a lightsaber rivaling even Yoda and Mace Windu."


Not because of skill??? He was able to survive the whole fight because of skill. They do know everything about each other but it doesn't change the fact that any fight is very random and unpredictable. If you ever fought in real life, you will understand.
Anakin's mental condition gave Kenobi profit only right at the end.


It's like saying Kung Fu is better, than Karate because it looks more cool.

It doesn't really matter who won, the point is they both showed incredible skill. Winning the fight is, also, very random and hard to predict.

Exactly, it doesn't prove anything, since they didn't have proper lightsaber fight, that's why I mentioned it.

Kenobi certainly didn't have that power and skill in AotC. In RotS Obi's style is not the best for winning but he can give long sword fight to anyone.

Originally posted by Arhael
You don't have to agree, it's just an opinion. In versus matches we avoid opinions. Subjective feelings have no place.

Originally posted by Arhael



And Obi is described in very same way "his skill with a lightsaber rivaling even Yoda and Mace Windu."

Where are you quoting from? His skill in his particular form may very well be close Yoda's or Mace's skill in their own chosen form. However those 2 have also mastered various other forms, whilst Obi-Wan has only achieved mastership in the one form.

Furthermore his level of skill will not matter if he simply does not have the Power to rival Mace or Yoda. Just like Cin Drallig and Dooku's superior fencing skills were useless against Anakin.


Originally posted by Arhael

Not because of skill??? He was able to survive the whole fight because of skill. They do know everything about each other but it doesn't change the fact that any fight is very random and unpredictable. If you ever fought in real life, you will understand.
Anakin's mental condition gave Kenobi profit only right at the end.

He had skill to rival Anakin. But theres no doubt that this was a very different fight than usual considering how well both these 2 knew each others moves.

Also I doubt Anakin by this point in the movie would have been in Yoda, Mace or even Dooku's league.




Originally posted by Arhael
Kenobi certainly didn't have that power and skill in AotC. In RotS Obi's style is not the best for winning but he can give long sword fight to anyone.

Thing is we need more evidence than just a quote from Mace saying He's The Master of Soresu. We need Saber feats to put him in league with Yoda, Mace and Dooku. But he just doesn't have them.

And I know CW Obi-Wan is not quite as good as ROTS Obi-Wan, but he gets disarmed by Ventress pretty quick. So he's not really impressed me all that much Saber wise.

Theres certainly nothing to put him in the Yoda, Mace league.

In versus matches we avoid opinions. Subjective feelings have no place.
Everyone here gives arguments and opinions based on facts. And facts themselves are evaluated to form conclusions based on our opinions and evaluations.


The skill is not measured in amount of forms and techniques learned but how effectively you utilize already available skills. Kenobi hadn't mastered all forms but he had more than enough experience and knowledge to counter any form. And even if both fight using same form, it would still be different as every person has his own style and uniqueness.


Here I can't agree. Power is not always deciding factor. No matter what potential Anakin had, Kenobi was able to counter him with equally strong Force push. Palpatine was so powerful that he was orchestrating multiple platforms, while laughing, when Yoda had to heavily concentrate to throw single one, yet, Palpatine couldn't beat him.

The fact that they knew each other's moves is not good enough. At such speed you can't predict or anticipate any particular move. The whole fight is based on trusting the Force and their styles and moves are build into their reflexes by years of practice. Fight is extremely unpredictable, if you try to predict or anticipate any specific move, you simply loose.
You doubt but I don't. Over 10 years you can teach a monkey to talk. Anakin hadn't achieved full potential in Force knowledge and understanding but he was at his top in combat.

Anyone can get disarmed. Ventress could be lucky or she managed to execute a nice technique, or there could be countless other possibilities. Windu disarmed Palpatin. Does it prove he is better combatant and would beat him in any scenario? No it doesn't.

Originally posted by Arhael


Here I can't agree. Power is not always deciding factor. No matter what potential Anakin had, Kenobi was able to counter him with equally strong Force push. Palpatine was so powerful that he was orchestrating multiple platforms, while laughing, when Yoda had to heavily concentrate to throw single one, yet, Palpatine couldn't beat him.

Well it depends how much the difference in power is. Clearly Anakin was just too powerful for Dooku. And Cin Drallig for that matter. And theres nothing anywhere to suggest Obi-Wan has fencing skills which surpass or even equal Count Dooku's.

Originally posted by Arhael
The fact that they knew each other's moves is not good enough. At such speed you can't predict or anticipate any particular move. The whole fight is based on trusting the Force and their styles and moves are build into their reflexes by years of practice. Fight is extremely unpredictable, if you try to predict or anticipate any specific move, you simply loose.

Read how the ROTS novel describes the fight:

"Blade-to-blade, they were identical. After thousands of hours in lightsaber sparring, they knew each other better than brothers, more intimately than lovers; they were complementary halves of a single warrior."

Plus Nick Gillard describes the fight in the Making of ROTS as neither of them able to get past each others defences because they know each other's moves too well.

The simple fact is a Master will always have certain advantages over the apprentice he trained. He will be fully aware of his strengths and weaknesses.

Originally posted by Arhael
You doubt but I don't. Over 10 years you can teach a monkey to talk. Anakin hadn't achieved full potential in Force knowledge and understanding but he was at his top in combat.

He was at his peak as a Jedi when he fought Count Dooku. Not the day/week he just became a Sith and had his mind all warped and twisted. In his fight against Count Dooku the ROTS novel describes Anakin as achieving Pristine Clarity in his head.

Do you really think he was clear and commited to what he was doing as Sith Anakin. The one crying and screaming as he murdered the seperatist leaders, and the one who says to Obi-Wan "Don't make me destroy you.." And the one who force choked his own wife even though he was trying to save her life?? Of course not.

Originally posted by Arhael
Anyone can get disarmed. Ventress could be lucky or she managed to execute a nice technique, or there could be countless other possibilities.

Poor excuse, especially considering she's disarmed him twice now in the CWanimation out of a total of 3 fights he's had against her. Two of them with Anakin by his side!

But has Anakin ever got disarmed by Ventress? Nope. (Not since he's been a Jedi Kinght anyway, I know she did in their first fight against Padawan Anakin in the CWmini cartoon).

Originally posted by Arhael
Windu disarmed Palpatin. Does it prove he is better combatant and would beat him in any scenario? No it doesn't.

Well in a purely saber and physical close comabt? Yeah I think Mace proved he's better than Sidious. (After a long tough fight of course)..


In conclusion theres really no evidence that puts Obi-Wan in the prequel top tiers in Saber combat. Theres actually no evidence suggesting he's even a better/more powerful fencer than Ventress. Maybe even Kit Fisto for that matter.

I didn't read prequel novels yet. But I find it kind of lame explanation. My logic comes from real life perspective as I do Tomiki Aikido + learned lots of stuff myself. Yes, I can know each move my mates can execute, yet, I can counter those moves equally effective, even if I never practiced with that person. Plus, when it comes to sword fighting, amount of techniques is dramatically reduced and they are much simpler, plus sword fighting is very random and short. Jedi have long fights only because of being guided by the Force and there is simply not enough time to recognize moves and figure out which counter would be better.
Jacen Solo was trained by Luke, although he picked up baggage of dirty tricks, there was not a single mention about them knowing each other's moves during entire fight.

Trust me by clone wars Kenobi didn't have a single advantage over Anakin in terms of lightsaber combat. Again, my logic is based on life experience.

Ok, assume they know moves, know how to counter each other and Kenoby as Master has slight advantage but you yourself put a lot of weight on power as you said:

And as you said Obi-Wan is even less powerful, than Dooku.


In film during fight with Dooku listening to his arrogant comments and looking at his aggressive expression and brutal attacks I would describe his state anything but "Pristine Clarity".



Anger makes you stronger, doesn't it? I am sure there is enough evidence of that. Apart from that reckless jump at the end he did very well.


Out of curiosity watched again 1x1 fight against Ventress. He didn't try to win he and was merely playing with her. After she disarmed him he simply continued flirting with her, while she was failing to strike him down, then without problem summoned the sword and continued fighting SINGLEHANDEDLY in relax mode. At the end she totally failed to do anything to him, lost one of her lightsabers and ran away. Imho he clearly showed that he is above her.



There is. Fought Grievous defending against 4 lightsabers simultaneously, each striking with cyborg strength. Fought with Anakin on equal terms and disarmed him more that once during fight. Now you gave me extra example with Ventres. You have reasons to discard these facts but I have reason to have them as valid, this argument can't really end xD.

Originally posted by Arhael
I didn't read prequel novels yet. But I find it kind of lame explanation. My logic comes from real life perspective as I do Tomiki Aikido + learned lots of stuff myself.

Yeah don't bother applying real life to Star Wars. I remember years ago when discussing Darth Maul kicking Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon, a poster here told me he's done sword fighting, and a kick is not intended to do any damage, but only distance yourself from the combatant.

I explained to him how Star Wars fight are not like that. Theres plenty of examples of kicking with the intent of doing damage while sword fighting.



Originally posted by Arhael
Ok, assume they know moves, know how to counter each other and Kenoby as Master has slight advantage but you yourself put a lot of weight on power as you said:

And as you said Obi-Wan is even less powerful, than Dooku.

I know. Thats what Im saying. Anakin was not applying his power any where near as efficiently at the point he was fighting Obi-Wan.



Originally posted by Arhael
In film during fight with Dooku listening to his arrogant comments and looking at his aggressive expression and brutal attacks I would describe his state anything but "Pristine Clarity".

He was clear about his goal: Defeating Count Dooku. Saving the 2 men who were like fathers to him all his life. Applying his rage effectively but being goal orientated about it.




Originally posted by Arhael
Anger makes you stronger, doesn't it? I am sure there is enough evidence of that. Apart from that reckless jump at the end he did very well.

He was always using anger anyway. Skywalker's just a really angry guy lol. But he used to hold back on it more.

But the big difference in his fight with Kenobi was his mind was all warped and twisted. What was his goal? Was it to Force Choke Padme endangering her life? No. But he did that.

Was it to kill the seperatists. Maybe. But then why was he crying while doing that.

Was his goal to kill Obi-Wan?? If it was then why did he say "Dnt make me destroy you?"

You see what Im saying here. His mind clearly didn't have that Pristine Clarity. He didn't know what he wanted to do really.

Just the fact that he made that stupid jump just shows how warped his mind was at that point in the movie.


Originally posted by Arhael
Out of curiosity watched again 1x1 fight against Ventress. He didn't try to win he and was merely playing with her. After she disarmed him he simply continued flirting with her, while she was failing to strike him down, then without problem summoned the sword and continued fighting SINGLEHANDEDLY in relax mode. At the end she totally failed to do anything to him, lost one of her lightsabers and ran away. Imho he clearly showed that he is above her.

Ventress got more powerful during the clone wars. We know this from Sidious's words in the episode "Nightsisters". He basically says to Dooku shes growing too strong in the force so he has to kill her.

But even in that first fight you mentioned, she did disarm him! She disarmed him, then you're right he dodged her for a few seconds, then she had him trapped. And she clearly had an oppurtunity to kill him! But instead she gloated for a couple of seconds, giving him an oppurtunity to escape that. So the only reason she didn't kill him was Pure PIS and CIS!!

Then Obiwan runs to another location. She follows. And yes he does disarm one of her weapons. But she only runs when she senses Anakin has got away, and Obi-Wan even tells her that.

The second time she disarmed him is in the episode "nightsisters" where she is fighting both Anakin and Obi-Wan simultaneously, and kicks Obi-Wan onto the floor with his weapon falling out of his hand.

Clearly if Anakin wasn't there, Obi-wan would have been in serious trouble there.



Originally posted by Arhael
There is. Fought Grievous defending against 4 lightsabers simultaneously, each striking with cyborg strength.

So has Kit Fisto and Ventress. Both did defeat or were defeating him.

Originally posted by Arhael
Fought with Anakin on equal terms and disarmed him more that once during fight.

Thats what we've been discussing

Lol That guy confused star wars with fully armored samurai. In my arsenal I have two kicks, front kick breaking jaw and low straight kick into kneecap, simple and effective.
I just gave example. My point is that during fights knowledge of each others moves and difference in power doesn't play major roles.


Ye, true. But to me reason was obvious, cut Obi to pieces!



Yes, she did and maybe she could kill him, there are always plenty of ifs. But agree, he was too casual and didn't try to win her.
I think Obi started showing "Yoda style" self-confidence too early. He didn't treat Ventress as serious foe in that duel. And then as you said she became much more powerful and in nightsisters episode he totally underestimated her. Especially, when she Force choked both of them, honestly, they really sucked at defending against Force. Maybe it's Anakin's fault as well, Obi relies on him, but Any allows Ventress to kick him. %).

By reviewing videos I noticed that Obi-Wan was quite arrogant himself. In every fight I hear his "I don't think so nono" and before fight with Dooku his "The Sith lord are our specialty" tore me apart. Also, all those previous encounters were more like another regular missions. But fight with Anakin was on a new level in terms off high stakes and circumstances surrounding it. Obi-Wan didn't loose because he couldn't afford to loose and as the result he fought beyond his normal abilities. Maybe only after that duel Obi-Wan became truly powerful Jedi but it's all speculation.

Originally posted by Arhael
My point is that during fights knowledge of each others moves and difference in power doesn't play major roles.

My point is don't confuse Star Wars fights with real fight. If the Novel and Nick Gillard both say they knew each others moves inside out, then we should accept that was a big factor in their fight.


Originally posted by Arhael
Ye, true. But to me reason was obvious, cut Obi to pieces!

Was it? Then why did he say before the fight "Don't make me destroy you!" It's not typical for Sith Lords to say that to their prey.



Originally posted by Arhael
Especially, when she Force choked both of them, honestly, they really sucked at defending against Force. Maybe it's Anakin's fault as well, Obi relies on him, but Any allows Ventress to kick him. %).

You see Anakin's a wild card. We've seen Ventress force choke him, but then we've seen him take full on Force attacks from Count Dooku, and still be fine to carry on fighting.

But I can't say the same about Obi-Wan. We've seen both Dooku and Ventress Force choke him now.. The only thing I can think from that is that his Force defences are not very good when up against deadly force users.

Originally posted by Arhael
Also, all those previous encounters were more like another regular missions. But fight with Anakin was on a new level in terms off high stakes and circumstances surrounding it. Obi-Wan didn't loose because he couldn't afford to loose and as the result he fought beyond his normal abilities. Maybe only after that duel Obi-Wan became truly powerful Jedi but it's all speculation.

Hey I do like Obi-Wan. He's the the most Charismatic Jedi we see in the movies. But to be honest these are just excuses for him. If there's one thing the CW Animation has shown us its that he's not in the elite tier of Jedi. I used to think in a Sword fight he could match the PT top dogs. But I just dnt believe that anymore.

From what Iv seen Mace could just kick him to the floor, Dooku would probably disarm him of his weapon in a very elegant fencing manouver, and Yoda and Sidious would just be too fast and powerful for him.

As of the Clone Wars its quite clear the top 3 Jedi are:

1. Yoda, 2. Mace, and 3. Skywalker.

But No. 4 is a big question mark even as of ROTS I think. I dnt see any proof that it's clearly Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Yes and my poit was all along that he is great sword fighter but sucks, when it comes to defending against Force.

It is never clear. Dooku, for example, might be above Mace.

^My list was just Jedi. It was always clear through the whole PT that Yoda and Mace were the top 2 Jedi (in terms of power).

And I think CW animation has made it pretty clear that, since he became a Jedi Knight, Anakin was soundly No.3, after all his fights with Count Dooku nearly stalemating him each time.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^My list was just Jedi. It was always clear through the whole PT that Yoda and Mace were the top 2 Jedi (in terms of power).

And I think CW animation has made it pretty clear that, since he became a Jedi Knight, Anakin was soundly No.3, after all his fights with Count Dooku nearly stalemating him each time.
Emm, don't remember Windu to fight any Sith in CW. Apart from fight with Palpatine, which rises a lot of questions there is not much evidence.

Originally posted by Arhael
Emm, don't remember Windu to fight any Sith in CW.

What difference does that make?

Originally posted by Arhael
Apart from fight with Palpatine, which rises a lot of questions there is not much evidence.

Not another "Sidious faked defeat"

He legitimately overpowered him in the Lightsaber fight at least.

The Novel confirms this, and so does Lucas in the ROTS audio commentary of that scene.

Originally posted by Arhael

Actually, by RotS Obi's combat skills were on level with Dooku or even above, Dooku won him only because of Force choke.



http://omgface.com/verysad/the%20****1.jpg

Dooku is on a different level than Kenobi who is like Kit Fisto level. Dooku has Sidious level swordsmanship and we saw how the Master Smiles lasted against that.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
http://omgface.com/verysad/the%20****1.jpg

Dooku is on a different level than Kenobi who is like Kit Fisto level. Dooku has Sidious level swordsmanship and we saw how the Master Smiles lasted against that.

Kenobi hasn't been equated to Kit Fisto since just after AotC, about 2 and a half years prior to RotS. That's not a valid comparison anymore.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Kenobi hasn't been equated to Kit Fisto since just after AotC, about 2 and a half years prior to RotS. That's not a valid comparison anymore.

Kit Fisto's displays of swordsmanship are on a similar tier to Kenobi. And AOTC Kenobi could barely follow Kit's movements with his eyes. I'm not saying that Obi-Wan wouldn't beat him but they are on the same level.

On the other hand Kit Fisto effortlessly handled Grievous pre-force crush to the lungs years before RotS, while Kenobi had to go into "heart of the force" mode to stand up against retarded RotS Grievous.

Which just says more about how retarded the clone wars cartoon is, than anything else.

But if its absolutely canon, Fisto is arguably superior to Kenobi by showings.

^ I wouldn't go as far as saying superior, but since the CW animation has given us more perspective on the ability of other Jedi, we do need more concrete proof that Kenobi is beyond the likes of Fisto. ( Or Ventress for that matter).

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
http://omgface.com/verysad/the%20****1.jpg

Dooku is on a different level than Kenobi who is like Kit Fisto level. Dooku has Sidious level swordsmanship and we saw how the Master Smiles lasted against that.

Only problem with this line of thought is we've already seen AOTC Kenobi last a couple of minutes against Dooku in a sword fight.

The thing is that skill and power doesn't grow like levels in rpg. Post FM Kenobi could not practice often enough and even get weaker but then realizing his unfitness become much stronger within a year.
Like Luke towards NJO very rarely used Force and we see him getting tired after fight with 3 Vongs, where he had to lift just a few stones and later loosing consciousness after heavy Force exertion. Yet, later after practice we see very same Luke doing much greater Force excretions and have enough reserves left to kick everyone's ass.

Originally posted by Arhael
The thing is that skill and power doesn't grow like levels in rpg. Post FM Kenobi could not practice often enough and even get weaker but then realizing his unfitness become much stronger within a year.


Whats FM Kenobi? And when did he get weaker and in which year did he become stronger again??


But back to my point about why AOTC Kenobi lasts much much longer against Count Dooku than Fisto does against Sidious... Well I guess that's where the typical A>B>C fails. Sidious went for the faster and more ferocious attack, whilst Dooku was fighting very relaxed and calmly and even toying with Kenobi..

There. Im officially debating with myself on these boards now. Maybe I need to get out more

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Whats FM Kenobi? And when did he get weaker and in which year did he become stronger again??


But back to my point about why AOTC Kenobi lasts much much longer against Count Dooku than Fisto does against Sidious... Well I guess that's where the typical A>B>C fails. Sidious went for the faster and more ferocious attack, whilst Dooku was fighting very relaxed and calmly and even toying with Kenobi..

There. Im officially debating with myself on these boards now. Maybe I need to get out more

I mean skill over years keeps going up and down, so Obi might be even stronger in FM, than in CW.
But never mind. You have an argument with yourself. I am looking forward to your replies to your own posts. xD

Originally posted by Arhael
I mean skill over years keeps going up and down, so Obi might be even stronger in FM, than in CW.


Whats FM?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Only problem with this line of thought is we've already seen AOTC Kenobi last a couple of minutes against Dooku in a sword fight.

Except Dooku was clearly trolling him the entire battle. He was smiling the whole time even during the saber lock.

Whats FM? I ment PM. We, foreigners, often make such mistakes. xD


Like that?

Originally posted by Arhael
I ment PM. We, foreigners, often make such mistakes. xD




Ah right I thought thats what you might have meant but was just confirming.

Well I dnt see how TPM Obi-Wan could be superior to his CW self, except possibly in one aspect. His offence. Simply because he gave that up and concentrated on his defensive style after that.

Also condiering he gave into his anger while fighting Maul (something he most likely never did again) his attack on Maul may have been the wildest attack of his career.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ah right I thought thats what you might have meant but was just confirming.

Well I dnt see how TPM Obi-Wan could be superior to his CW self, except possibly in one aspect. His offence. Simply because he gave that up and concentrated on his defensive style after that.

Also condiering he gave into his anger while fighting Maul (something he most likely never did again) his attack on Maul may have been the wildest attack of his career.
Wandering was it just angry frenzy of more like grim determination? To me it looked like he was able to control himself as his face expression displayed focus rather than madness. Did you read novelization?

^ Oh he was definetely in a rage after seeing his Master murdered. Then he actually fought better than his master who was at that time his superior in every way.

Yeah I have the novel, and there are various other EU sources that say he gave in to his anger in that fight.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ Oh he was definetely in a rage after seeing his Master murdered. Then he actually fought better than his master who was at that time his superior in every way.

Yeah I have the novel, and there are various other EU sources that say he gave in to his anger in that fight.
Mde, Order was definitely flawed, if someone, who gave in to anger could fight better, than master.

^ Well his Master did say earlier on that he has great potential (I forsee you will become a Great Jedi Knight)..

And yes that's why the dark side is tempting because it can lead to more power.

But even if Obi-Wan turned to the darkside, he wouldn't be that much better all the time. Because lets face it seeing his Master die put him in a rage that he wouldn't exactly reach every day.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ Well his Master did say earlier on that he has great potential (I forsee you will become a Great Jedi Knight)..

And yes that's why the dark side is tempting because it can lead to more power.

But even if Obi-Wan turned to the darkside, he wouldn't be that much better all the time. Because lets face it seeing his Master die put him in a rage that he wouldn't exactly reach every day.
Ye that's true. Otherwise it would be another dragonball Z. )