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So according to...Ghost Nural It took Revan and Bastilla to defeat Malak on the Star Forge, even if we take that only Revan defeated him, how strong was he?
Scenario 1: Regular Malak
Scenario 2: Star Forge Malak with several Jedi prepped to absorb.
How does he fare against each of these combatants?
1. Kit Fisto
2. ROTS Ob-Wan
3. ROTS Anakin (Zonakin restricted)
4. Darth Malgus
5. Grand Master Satele Shan
6. Count Dooku
7. Mace Windu
8. Master Yoda
9. ROTS Sidious

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
So according to...Ghost Nural It took Revan and Bastilla to defeat Malak on the Star Forge, even if we take that only Revan defeated him, how strong was he?
Malak on Star Forge was described as being nearly unstoppable.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Scenario 1: Regular Malak
Characters grow and change with passage of time.

If you consider Pre-MW Malak; he is average.
If you consider MW Malak; he is improved and battle-hardened.
If you consider DLOTS Malak: he is powerful and very capable.

DLOTS Malak handled the trio of Revan, Bastilla, and Carth, on Leviathan. He not just survived but subdued Bastilla.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Scenario 2: Star Forge Malak with several Jedi prepped to absorb.
How does he fare against each of these combatants?
1. Kit Fisto
2. ROTS Ob-Wan
3. ROTS Anakin (Zonakin restricted)
4. Darth Malgus
5. Grand Master Satele Shan
6. Count Dooku
7. Mace Windu
8. Master Yoda
9. ROTS Sidious
Your list is strange.

1. ROTS Obi-Wan should be above ROTS Anakin or on par.
2. Malgus should be above Dooku.
3. Satele should be on par with Yoda at minimum.

It is very difficult to give a definite position to SF Malak. However, surely above Dooku. A position between Mace and Yoda would make sense. Not sure about swordsmanship though.

Don't listen to the above, the list is perfect.

And I think clearly Gnost Dural is wrong about Bastila fighting Malak. He's just a historian, whereas we've actually witnessed the event in question first hand and Bastila stayed behind to perform the much more important task of using her Battle Meditation.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
So according to...Ghost Nural Who is a ghost.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Malak on Star Forge was described as being nearly unstoppable.
True, but many things in the Star Wars Mythos have been.


Well I did specify Darth Malak.


Anakin is more powerful than Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan only is victorious against him because.
A. He is considered by Mace to be THE Soresu Master.
B. He's been sparring with Anakin since he learned to wield a saber.
Malgus has shown nothing superior to Dooku, who while blind and drugged and in his pjs defeated Assaji Ventress + 2 Night Sisters.
And Satele aside from being Grand Master hasn't really shown all that much. All we know is she's pretty much the strongest Jedi in the order during the Clone Wars.

Why does everyone underestimate Dooku?
He has been stated many times to be on par with Mace. And the one time they dueled there was no victor.
Do you really think Malak can defeat Dooku or Mace Windu, especially Mace who is a really bad opponent against Dark Siders.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Who is a ghost.
3000+ years later. Yeah.

Swing and a miss.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Swing and a miss.

You contribute so much.

Yes, because when we see stupidity in posts, we ache to use sarcasm.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Don't listen to the above, the list is perfect.
In your fantasy world.

You're just fishing for a Queen reference aren't you?

'Is this the reeeeal world, is this just faaaantasy?

Caught in a fan-lie, can't escape from realityyyy.

Open your eyes, look out at SW aaaand seeeeeeee!'

I'm just a farm boy, I miss my aunty.

When emailed this question, Drew's response was that Malak was receiving a serious boost to his power simply by being on the Star Forge, since it effectively functions as a dark side nexus.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
True, but many things in the Star Wars Mythos have been.
Kindly identify these many things. Full list would be appreciated.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Well I did specify Darth Malak.
He had that identity while being apprentice of Darth Revan. Therefore, clarification was needed.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Anakin is more powerful than Obi-Wan.
I am not convinced.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Obi-Wan only is victorious against him because.
A. He is considered by Mace to be THE Soresu Master.
Part of his skill.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
B. He's been sparring with Anakin since he learned to wield a saber.
This is useless point. Obi-Wan and Anakin both understood each other well.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Malgus has shown nothing superior to Dooku, who while blind and drugged and in his pjs defeated Assaji Ventress + 2 Night Sisters.
This video should give you a clue:

OzdCdRPESps

You can see how powerful and skilled Jedi Master Kao was. But when Malgus gave into rage, it was gameover.

And Malgus would manhandle Assaj.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
And Satele aside from being Grand Master hasn't really shown all that much. All we know is she's pretty much the strongest Jedi in the order during the Clone Wars.
Are you nuts?

Some feats of Satele are:

1. Unleashing a special force power which took out 3 Sith Warriors simultaneously and instantly.
2. Killing Sith warriors and battle droids effortlessely without even stopping in the process.
3. Ripping apart a gigantic Tree from its foundation with a single hand while holding Malgus at bay with another.
4. Shattering a gigantic boulder of rock into tiny pieces with a powerful surge of energy.
5. Blocking a killer lightsaber blow with bare hands.
6. Reducing deadly droids into exploding fireballs with a flick of her hand.
7. Capable of moving extremely fast and perform incredible acrobatics during duels.

She is the Grand Master of the Jedi Order for a reason, kid.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Why does everyone underestimate Dooku?
I don't underestimate him. I actually like him and use him as a benchmark to judge others.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
He has been stated many times to be on par with Mace. And the one time they dueled there was no victor.
Mace improved with passage of time and managed to suddue palpatine. Beat this.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Do you really think Malak can defeat Dooku or Mace Windu, especially Mace who is a really bad opponent against Dark Siders.

Malak became so powerful that he managed to handle Revan, Bastilla, and Carth simultaneously. Do you think that this is a joke? This feat alone puts him above Dooku.

Mace has special advantage against darksiders though. However, he is not necessarily more powerful then all of them. Sidious is stronger then him as an example.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Malak became so powerful that he managed to handle Revan, Bastilla, and Carth simultaneously. Do you think that this is a joke? This feat alone puts him above Dooku.

Lolwut?

Yoda>Satele. Although her use of force absorb was quite cool.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lolwut?
Yes, it does.

We have Revan among his opponents. And Bastilla Shan herself is no ordinary Jedi.

Originally posted by ares834
Yoda>Satele.
Debatable.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes, it does.

We have Revan among his opponents. And Bastilla Shan herself is no ordinary Jedi.

A barely trained Revan with no quantifiable Force Mastery or duelling ability. And Bastila Shan isn't that impressive at that point. She again is a complete Unknown in terms of capability.

Clearly Carth was carrying their weak asses in that fight. Rapid Shot FTW!

Originally posted by Nephthys
A barely trained Revan with no quantifiable Force Mastery or duelling ability.
A barely trained Revan?

Bro, he was properly retrained in the ways of the Jedi on Dantooine. As a part of his final test, he proceeded to defeat Juhani and redeem her.

The Jedi Council would not have risked sending Revan unprepared against Sith. There victory depended upon the actions of this one individual.

Also, Revan visited 3 planets before facing Malak. He gained lot of combat experience during these adventures. He faced dangerous opponents including Calo Nord, Krayt Dragon, Bandon etc...

During duel with Malak on Leviathan;

Revan actually forced Malak to temporary retreat into the next chamber during his initial clash. Malak then resorted to his Force powers to overwhelm Revan in the second clash.

Prior to this, Malak froze both Bastilla and Carth with his Force powers to ensure that no interference would occur from them.

Bastilla rejoined in the next phase of the duel to save Revan. Her interference gave Revan and Carth the opportunity to escape.

Revan then proceeded to get trained in the ways of the Sith afterwards on Korriban and also visited Lehon before the final encounter. His experience and understanding of the Force further increased.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And Bastila Shan isn't that impressive at that point. She again is a complete Unknown in terms of capability.
How is she complete unknown? Granted that we don't get massive details about her personal abilities but KOTOR CG solves this issue thankfully to some degree.

She was part of the Jedi Strike Team send to take on Darth Revan. Do you think that the Jedi Council would risk sending such an important individual in such a dangerous fight?

Her loss to DLOTS Malak is not a sign of her weakness. It is just that Malak had grown very powerful since the days of Jararel. He was running an entire SITH EMPIRE. Do you think that this is easy task?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Clearly Carth was carrying their weak asses in that fight. Flurry Shot FTW!
He was a skilled soldier and was an asset. However, he proved to be useless; thanks to powers of Malak.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
A barely trained Revan?

Bro, he was properly retrained in the ways of the Jedi on Dantooine.

As of leaving to persue the Star Maps Revan was still a neophyte, as is pointed out almost immediately. Revan was on Dantooine for, what, a month? Anyway, show how well trained he was. Prove up.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
As a part of his final test, he proceeded to defeat Juhani and redeem her.

Juhani was a Padawan.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The Jedi Council would not have risked sending Revan unprepared against Sith. There victory depended upon the actions of this one individual.

The Jedi Council were desperate. They had almost lost the war as is. Remember that by the end of the war there were only about 100 Jedi left....

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Also, Revan visited 3 planets before facing Malak. He gained lot of combat experience during these adventures. He faced dangerous opponents including Calo Nord, Krayt Dragon, Bandon etc...

Revan always had the backing of his crew for that. This is unquantifiable in terms of his personal skill.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
During duel with Malak on Leviathan;

Revan actually forced Malak to temporary retreat into the next chamber during his initial clash. Malak then resorted to his Force powers to overwhelm Revan in the second clash.

Prior to this, Malak froze both Bastilla and Carth with his Force powers to ensure that no interference would occur from them.

Bastilla rejoined in the next phase of the duel to save Revan. Her interference gave Revan and Carth the opportunity to escape.

Cool, I guess? How does this make Revan or Malak powerful? You're using them to try and prove the other is powerful, i.e. Malak is powerful because he beat Revan on the Leviathan and Revan is powerful because he managed to force Malak back on the Leviathan. This is circular logic.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Revan then proceeded to get trained in the ways of the Sith afterwards on Korriban and also visited Lehon before the final encounter. His experience and understanding of the Force further increased.

At no point do you recieve any training on Korriban.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
How is she complete unknown? Granted that we don't get massive details about her personal abilities but KOTOR CG solves this issue thankfully to some degree.

She was part of the Jedi Strike Team send to take on Darth Revan. Do you think that the Jedi Council would risk sending such an important individual in such a dangerous fight?

No I don't. And I've used that exact arguement in the past to show why she shouldn't be underestimated. The problem is that I only ever used that as supporting evidence. By itself it doesn't give a clear estimation of her abilities or how powerful she actually is.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Her loss to DLOTS Malak is not a sign of her weakness. It is just that Malak had grown very powerful since the days of Jararel. He was running an entire SITH EMPIRE. Do you think that this is easy task?

So was Kaan. And he was pathetic. Just because the people under Malak were weaker than him doesn't make him automatically strong.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He was a skilled soldier and was an asset. However, he proved to be useless; thanks to powers of Malak.

I was joking.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Don't listen to the above, the list is perfect.

And I think clearly Gnost Dural is wrong about Bastila fighting Malak. He's just a historian, whereas we've actually witnessed the event in question first hand and Bastila stayed behind to perform the much more important task of using her Battle Meditation.

I agree, this is a huge inconsistency in Dural's history lesson and weakens the impact of the rest of his works. In any case, Drew K confirmed to me via email (years ago, actually. I may have referenced it on here sometime) that Revan and Malak fought solo, that Malak had a huge homecourt advantage, being powered both by the Star Forge and the braindead Jedi he was draining, and the fight was "epic" (Drew's words, not mine), and that ultimately Revan won *duh*.

The conclusion you can draw from this is that Malak, buffed by the Star Forge, was an epic battle for someone described at this point as the strongest Jedi in the Order (see Revan. That means he's probably top tier while buffed.

I wouldn't say top teir. He's no Nihilus, thats for sure.

Well, Nihilus and Bandon are beyond power scales. I meant among mortals.

Nihilus and Bandon? That's like saying Norris and Chuck.


Bandon was such a colossus of power in the Force that it collapsed in on itself, like a neutron star. Only the life force of entire planets was enough to fill the gap.

Originally posted by Nephthys
As of leaving to persue the Star Maps Revan was still a neophyte, as is pointed out almost immediately. Revan was on Dantooine for, what, a month? Anyway, show how well trained he was. Prove up.
I don't recall any duration being mentioned but it was long enough for Revan to be retrained in the ways of the Jedi. His learning rate was extremely fast.

We did not experienced the whole training process but we did get some glimpses and had to pass the final test ourselves.

1. He was pitted against Bastilla Shan to hone his dueling skills.
2. He performed floating meditation along with using Telekinesis to lift and move several objects simultaneously.
3. He reconstructed his own lightsaber.
4. He finally proceeded to defeat Juhani and redeem her.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Juhani was a Padawan.
Padawan or not, she cut down her Jedi Master and was a threat. There were other padawans there too but only Revan succeeded in solving this problem.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The Jedi Council were desperate. They had almost lost the war as is. Remember that by the end of the war there were only about 100 Jedi left....
From those 100 left, they chose to sent weaklings, right? They thought that these weaklings would take on Darth Revan (one of the most powerful Sith Lords in the Galactic history)? Does this makes sense?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Revan always had the backing of his crew for that. This is unquantifiable in terms of his personal skill.
It was stated in the databank that Bastilla Shan was thrusted into difficult and challenging roles as a Jedi along side Revan.

In addition, it has been pointed out in canonical sources that Revan killed those notable individuals. They came with companions too to keep the companions of Revan busy.

For Bandon;

Revan killed him (KOTOR CG, SW TCE)

For Calo Nord;

Ultimately, it takes a person of equal power to defeat him, as Revan does when the bounty hunter tries to prevent his escape from Taris in the Ebon Hawk
(KOTOR CG)

And Revan killed him later on. This is obvious because he came to target him and Revan could not avoid them or let him escape.

And the list goes on.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Cool, I guess? How does this make Revan or Malak powerful? You're using them to try and prove the other is powerful, i.e. Malak is powerful because he beat Revan on the Leviathan and Revan is powerful because he managed to force Malak back on the Leviathan. This is circular logic.
This is not ciruclar logic.

In the first phase, Revan proved that he was a force to be reckoned with and forced Malak to retreat.

In the second phase, Malak proved that he was also a force to be reckoned with by trapping Revan with his Force powers.

This is the intended message of the creators. They wanted to depict that both were strong individuals.

Originally posted by Nephthys
At no point do you recieve any training on Korriban.
Now you are using points as an argument?

Think from realistic perspective; all that training and exposure that Revan got on Korriban - would it not have improved his understanding of the Force further?

Revan' exploits in Korriban led to the collapse of the Sith Training Academy situated there. There was total chaos.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No I don't. And I've used that exact arguement in the past to show why she shouldn't be underestimated. The problem is that I only ever used that as supporting evidence. By itself it doesn't give a clear estimation of her abilities or how powerful she actually is.
I understand. However;

Maybe the most heroic Jedi of her time, Bastila Shan was a Jedi exempler. (KOTOR CG)

Heroes are born with actions and not just words.

1. We do see her slaying elite Sith warriors of Darth Revan.

2. She confronted Revan on Lehon but escaped unscathed.

3. On Star Forge, Bastila was depicted as being equal to 3 strongest apprentices.

Now couple her with Revan and we have got a challenging pair to contend with.

Originally posted by Nephthys
So was Kaan. And he was pathetic. Just because the people under Malak were weaker than him doesn't make him automatically strong.
Was Kas'im pathetic too?

Besides, the Sith Master (Uthar Wynn) on Korriban confirmed that Malak was thus far the strongest individual in his Sith Empire. Uthar himself was a force to be reckoned with as he had exiled his Sith Master and was taken out by the duo of Revan and Yuthura. And Malak was no Kaan.

Malak' power was increasing with passage of time, as Revan himself noted this on KOTOR.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I was joking.
Ok.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I agree, this is a huge inconsistency in Dural's history lesson and weakens the impact of the rest of his works. In any case, Drew K confirmed to me via email (years ago, actually. I may have referenced it on here sometime) that Revan and Malak fought solo, that Malak had a huge homecourt advantage, being powered both by the Star Forge and the braindead Jedi he was draining, and the fight was "epic" (Drew's words, not mine), and that ultimately Revan won *duh*.

The conclusion you can draw from this is that Malak, buffed by the Star Forge, was an epic battle for someone described at this point as the strongest Jedi in the Order (see Revan. That means he's probably top tier while buffed.
I don't agree with the list but I agree with your point. We have other sources to support this.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I don't recall any duration being mentioned but it was long enough for Revan to be retrained in the ways of the Jedi. His learning rate was extremely fast.

We did not experienced the whole training process but we did get some glimpses and had to pass the final test ourselves.

1. He was pitted against Bastilla Shan to hone his dueling skills.
2. He performed floating meditation along with using Telekinesis to lift and move several objects simultaneously.
3. He reconstructed his own lightsaber.
4. He finally proceeded to defeat Juhani and redeem her.

All of which amounts to? So we saw him honing his dueling skills, but we don't know how skilled in lightsabers he became. We saw him telekinetically lift a chair and some books. All we know is that he gained basic Jedi abilities. We still have no idea how powerful or skilled Revan was at the time. Considering how little he's shown practising with the Force its likely that he only has rudimentary Force Mastery.

Revan was considered an Unknown for a reason. Before his novel we can't realistically use him in versus matches. Theres actually a rule against it.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Padawan or not, she cut down her Jedi Master and was a threat. There were other padawans there too but only Revan succeeded in solving this problem.

Juhani's master purposefully enraged Juhani and let herself be taken out. It was a test, she wasn't fully fighting Juhani. And I don't think we see anyone else try to solve the problem, making your point irrelevent.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
From those 100 left, they chose to sent weaklings, right? They thought that these weaklings would take on Darth Revan (one of the most powerful Sith Lords in the Galactic history)? Does this makes sense?

Did I say that they were weaklings? No. Only that by itself Bastila being on the Strike Team does not prove that she is anything but average. Your point assumes that they had alternatives that are powerful to send instead of her.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It was stated in the databank that Bastilla Shan was thrusted into difficult and challenging roles as a Jedi along side Revan.

In addition, it has been pointed out in canonical sources that Revan killed those notable individuals. They came with companions too to keep the companions of Revan busy.

For Bandon;

Revan killed him (KOTOR CG, SW TCE)

For Calo Nord;

Ultimately, it takes a person of equal power to defeat him, as Revan does when the bounty hunter tries to prevent his escape from Taris in the Ebon Hawk
(KOTOR CG)


Again you are missing the fact that Revan had help from his companions. Even if Revan dealt the killing blow it does not mean that Revan solely takes the credit for their defeat. And seriously? Calo Nord and Bandon? Calo Nord is a non-force sensitive and Bandon, no matter how much we joke about him being incredibly uber, is again a complete Unknown in terms of ability. Come back when Revan defeats someone of note. Or don't, because I know that he didn't.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And Revan killed him later on. This is obvious because he came to target him and Revan could not avoid them or let him escape.

And the list goes on.

No it doesn't. Revan is an Unknown quantity up til he regained his memories. Like always you fail in establishing someone as being as powerful as you think they were. Malak defeating Revan on the Leviathan means all of absolutely nothing because Revan at that time is an Unknown. Period.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is not ciruclar logic.

In the first phase, Revan proved that he was a force to be reckoned with and forced Malak to retreat.

In the second phase, Malak proved that he was also a force to be reckoned with by trapping Revan with his Force powers.

This is the intended message of the creators. They wanted to depict that both were strong individuals.

Yes it is circular logic. You cannot prove Malak was powerful by proving that Revan was powerful by proving that Revan forced Malak back. That is the definition of circular logic. You cannot support Malak being powerful with an arguement like that.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Now you are using points as an argument?

IIRC English is not your first language, so I understand how you could misinterpret me that badly. All I said was that Revan doesn't actually recieve any training on Korriban. You can play through the game again if you don't believe me. The only thing Revan learns on Korriban is the Sith Code, the legend of the Sithari and some history lessons.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Think from realistic perspective; all that training and exposure that Revan got on Korriban - would it not have improved his understanding of the Force further?

No, because said training does not exist.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Revan' exploits in Korriban led to the collapse of the Sith Training Academy situated there. There was total chaos.

Proving nothing about Revans personal combat abilities.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I understand. However;

Maybe the most heroic Jedi of her time, Bastila Shan was a Jedi exempler. (KOTOR CG)

Heroes are born with actions and not just words.

This doesn't say anything about how powerful Bastila was. Its merely your interpretation linking it to that. You remember that Bastila was the Jedi who was overcome by Swoop gangmembers at the start of the game, right? Clearly a mighty hero.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
1. We do see her slaying elite Sith warriors of Darth Revan.

Could you establish how 'elite' these warriors were for me?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
2. She confronted Revan on Lehon but escaped unscathed.

3. On Star Forge, Bastila was depicted as being equal to 3 strongest apprentices.

Now couple her with Revan and we have got a challenging pair to contend with.

Both of those things occur after Malak defeated, converted and educated her in the Sith arts.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Was Kas'im pathetic too?

Kas'im wasn't Kaan.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Besides, the Sith Master (Uthar Wynn) on Korriban confirmed that Malak was thus far the strongest individual in his Sith Empire. Uthar himself was a force to be reckoned with as he had exiled his Sith Master and was taken out by the duo of Revan and Yuthura. And Malak was no Kaan.

I don't believe theres any canonical proof about how Revan handled himself on Korriban, or whether he turned on Uthar with Yuthura or not. And besides, losing a fight hardly establishes him as 'a force to be reckoned with.'

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Kindly identify these many things. Full list would be appreciated.
The Empire.



DLOTS Malak then.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlhfixULv28
Dooku is visibly exhausted at the end of this duel. Meanwhile everytime he fights Kenobi, Obi-Wan is casually dispatched.


Makes him a good opponent for someone as brute strength as Anakin or Grievous. It does not make him stronger.


Anakin is more powerful though.


I should have specified, nothing to put her above Yoda.

ROTS Sidious did something similar with some of the most skilled blademasters in the Order. Satele killing featless Sith fodder isn't that great. Yoda was able to outduel this same ROTS Sidious.

Darth Tyranus did something similar against Yoda. Not that impressive.

Does that match Yoda blasting away armies of battledroids with his TK?

Big deal, Shaak Ti did that against Grievous. When she absorbs lighting on the level of Palpatine then I'll be impressed.

Impressive. Nothing Yoda can't do.

Yoda is the master of Form IV you won't get more acrobatics than that.

Lol I've been a member here since '07. Your condescending tone won't save your argument.


He is pretty good for that I admit. But he is essentially the Sith Order's antithesis to Windu.

In an enclosed setting, where Palpatine did sense Anakin's presence closing. Rematch in the Grand Convocation chamber and Windu would be stomped.

Bastilla states that they are no match for the Dark Lord. This is not the Jedi Master Bastilla, Padawan Bastilla (arguably Knight) and Padawan Revan with a Republic war hero vs. The Dark Lord of the Sith. Also surely his time on Korriban got him in touch with the Light and Dark Sides making him into the Revan we saw fight the Emperor.


I am thinking Mace would destroy Malgus in a duel.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Yes, because when we see stupidity in posts, we ache to use sarcasm.
Forgive my misspelling oh Dr McBeefington grand master of the forums. Don't you have something better to do?

Don't you have something better to do?

I'm afraid I don't understand. I called your post "stupid", and you respond with what seemed like my criticism of your "misspelling"?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I'm afraid I don't understand. I called your post "stupid", and you respond with what seemed like my criticism of your "misspelling"?

Get your flame bait out of my thread Beefington.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The Empire.
As a whole. Not every individual.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
DLOTS Malak then.
Ok.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlhfixULv28
Dooku is visibly exhausted at the end of this duel. Meanwhile everytime he fights Kenobi, Obi-Wan is casually dispatched.
Here is the full video:

UOsgqoBBEg

This video affirms that Anakin is getting stronger and Dooku is showing signs of aging.

Even Force-users are not immune to limitations imposed by old age. I can confirm my point through canonical materials.

Still you can see that Dooku easily subdues Anakin with his Force powers. His decent command of the Force is his best ally in difficult situations.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Makes him a good opponent for someone as brute strength as Anakin or Grievous. It does not make him stronger.
Read this:

Blade-to-blade, they were identical. After thousands of hours in lightsaber sparring, they knew each other better than brothers, more intimately than lovers; they were complementary halves of a single warrior.

In every exchange, Obi-Wan gave ground. It was his way. And he knew that to strike Anakin down would burn his own heart to ash.

From novelization.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Anakin is more powerful though.
Debatable. Anakin, as of ROTS, could not subdue Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
You underestimate Ventress. She was able to defeat Kit Fisto, and hold off Kenobi and Skywalker simultaneously.
I don't underestimate Ventress. None of these individuals matched Count Dooku' command of the Force.

And Malgus' prominent opponents were not weaklings either. Kao alone seems to be far stronger and skilled then Assaj.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I am very familiar wit TOR videos, thank you. I am a subscriber. Whether or not Malgus would defeat Assaj isn't the question. Whether he could defeat her drugged and blind while she had 2 other Jedi assisting her is a question.
Malgus actually would. Assaj is a joke in comparison.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I should have specified, nothing to put her above Yoda.
She has her share of limitations and strengths and same is true for Yoda.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
ROTS Sidious did something similar with some of the most skilled blademasters in the Order. Satele killing featless Sith fodder isn't that great. Yoda was able to outduel this same ROTS Sidious.
Your example is irrelevant.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
How powerful were the warriors?
Strong enough to tolerate grenade explosions near them.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Because Yoda effortlessly disarmed Dooku's most powerful assassin.
You need to understand that Assaj is not noted for her command in the Force. She was helpless against Force based attacks from Count Dooku; no wonder Yoda could do that to her.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
And killed 2 of the Royal Guard with a gesture of his hand.
Those guards were not Force-users. They were absolutely vulnerable.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
ROTS Sidious did something similar with some of the most skilled blademasters in the Order.
In Yoda' point of view. Apart from Mace, I did not find others very impressive.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Satele killing featless Sith fodder isn't that great. Yoda was able to outduel this same ROTS Sidious.
Yoda maybe more skilled lightsaber duelist but Satele compensates with her extreme acrobatics and proficiency in Tutaminis.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Darth Tyranus did something similar against Yoda. Not that impressive.
Yoda is noted for his speed. Malgus is noted for his strength. There is difference.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Does that match Yoda blasting away armies of battledroids with his TK?
Yes. That Force power destroyed a large object which would be more heavy then many many human sized droids put together. Would they stand a chance against such power if placed in path?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Big deal, Shaak Ti did that against Grievous. When she absorbs lighting on the level of Palpatine then I'll be impressed.
It is BIG DEAL. Also, provide some details about this event involving Shaak Ti.

Still this is irrelevant. We are talking about Yoda and not Shaak Ti. Has he demonstrated this feat?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Impressive. Nothing Yoda can't do.
Really? It is not gospel that Yoda can do everything. Now show me similar feat from Yoda.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Yoda is the master of Form IV you won't get more acrobatics than that.
Nice.

So was Qui-Gon but he was no Satete.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Lol I've been a member here since '07. Your condescending tone won't save your argument.
Much to learn you still have, my very old apprentice.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
In an enclosed setting, where Palpatine did sense Anakin's presence closing. Rematch in the Grand Convocation chamber and Windu would be stomped.
Not with lightsaber and Force lightning. However, it is not impossible to defeat Mace.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Bastilla states that they are no match for the Dark Lord. This is not the Jedi Master Bastilla, Padawan Bastilla (arguably Knight) and Padawan Revan with a Republic war hero vs. The Dark Lord of the Sith.
Ranks are not important. Also, see my debate with neph in this regard.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Also surely his time on Korriban got him in touch with the Light and Dark Sides making him into the Revan we saw fight the Emperor.
Indeed. I like this comment of yours.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I am thinking Mace would destroy Malgus in a duel.
Depends upon the circumstances and how Malgus fights him. The latter is known to exploit his surroundings and use Force powers other then Force Lightning.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
As a whole. Not every individual.
My friend being referred to as unstoppable is really not that great. The Empire was an unstoppable force, and yet it was stopped, by one of the smallest galactic military forces in history at that.


Yes, but this duel proves that Anakin is a much worse opponent to Tyranus than Kenobi is or ever was.


And yet people like Vitiate, Yoda and Palpatine are the strongest in their era and the oldest.

Decent command of the Force? Unless your name is Yoda or Sidious, Dooku is more powerful in the force than anyone in the PT.

The novelization excludes the fact that 5 minutes before the Duel Anakin was crying over his massacre of the Separatist Council. Soon after he force choked his wife. Add that to the fact that he was dueling his father figure who was a master of defense, Anakin was at a disadvantage.


And yet with clarity he could defeat Dooku.


If we are going by showings Kao was also more impressive than Ven Zallow, and yet Master Zallow is more reputable.


Please prove that Malgus has Force sight. Because if he doesn't he is not going to defeat three invisible opponents.


Concession accepted. Yoda is clearly Satele's superior. When Satele shows the TK to force push armies back and smash two of these. Come back. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/C-9979_landing_craft

No, not at all. People of Yoda's calibur have defeated seasoned bladesmasters like Kit Fisto in seconds. Fisto has proven to be on the same level of Kenobi.


They were clad in advanced Sith battle armor from head to toe.


Ragdolling Kenobi and Skywalker isn't impressive? I beg to differ.


As much as I hate using the Wookiepedia
"Each recruit was scrutinized to fit select size, strength, intelligence and loyalty requirements, as well as latent Force sensitivity." -Article on Royal Guards


Agen Kolar dominated Quinlan Vos. The same Quinlan Vos who defeated Sora Bulq.
Kit Fisto fought on par with Grievous. Grievous was capable of outdueling 5 Jedi including Shaak Ti and Ki-Adi Mundi.

You can't be serious. Yoda has shown more acrobatics than Satele. You are grasping at straws here. And Yoda has also shown excellent mastery of Tutaminis. Shaak Ti has also absorbed saber blows with her bare hands. Satele's feats put her at around Shaak Ti's level and that's generous.


Disarming Palpatine actually proves that Yoda is extremely strong. If Yoda could lock blades with people like Palpatine and Dooku who have Mace-level strength, he is strong. Or do I need to remind you that Mace Windu beat through an army of Super Battle Droids with his bear hands.


She blocked GG's blow. She was sent flying because the General was ridiculously strong, but she still blocked the blow.

Because Yoda is far more powerful than Shaak Ti and there is nothing suggesting he could not match that feat.

When has Yoda needed to?
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070901030607/starwars/images/a/a6/YodaCatch-hd.jpg

Lol in his prime Qui-Gon sparred on par with Mace Windu.
And also Qui-Gon was a master of Ataru, Yoda was the Master of Ataru.

Cute.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Not with lightsaber and Force lightning. However, it is not impossible to defeat Mace.
No, but let's see how Mace handles having the Senate thrown at him.


No Revan and Bastilla are featless. So they are irrelevant.

His most notable kill is Ven Zallow. Ven Zallow cannot compare to the man who reinvented form VII and is a master of Shatterpoints. Malgus would be reduced to a little cyborg ball by Windu.

Jesus Yoda, your arguments make Legend look like a debating God.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Jesus Yoda, your arguments make Legend look like a debating God.

Legend has yet to prove anything. And yet he is a debating God? Pass whatever you are smoking please.
He thinks Satele Shan is powerful because she does fancy jumping tricks and can block lightsaber blows.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Legend has yet to prove anything. And yet he is a debating God? Pass whatever you are smoking please.
He thinks Satele Shan is powerful because she does fancy jumping tricks and can block lightsaber blows.


Reading Comprehension ftw.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Reading Comprehension ftw.

You are missing the point. The point of this thread was to find the community's consensus on Darth Malak's placement, not debate Malgus' place in the PT power scale, which it has become. Legend isn't even making a point, admittedly neither am I because we are off topic. I don't see how I could make him look like a debating God when neither of us are even making points anymore. This thread has become a cock fight of 'WHY DID YOU PUT THIS PERSON HIGHER THAN THIS PERSON ON THE GAUNTLET'.

So returning to the Opening statements
1. Kit Fisto
2. ROTS Ob-Wan
3. ROTS Anakin (Zonakin restricted)
4. Darth Malgus
5. Grand Master Satele Shan
6. Count Dooku
7. Mace Windu
8. Master Yoda
9. ROTS Sidious

I don't see why Regular Malak should even be capable of defeating Obi-Wan to be honest. Certainly not just after duelling Kit Fisto. Star Forge Malak wouldn't get past Malgus.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
My friend being referred to as unstoppable is really not that great. The Empire was an unstoppable force, and yet it was stopped, by one of the smallest galactic military forces in history at that.
Nothing is actually 'unstoppable'. This has been established again and again in the Star Wars mythos.

The term 'nearly unstoppable' has been used to give a hint about Malak' power during the Battle of Rakata Prime. What this suggests is that Malak was very strong by that time. He presented considerable challenge to any potential adversary.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Yes, but this duel proves that Anakin is a much worse opponent to Tyranus than Kenobi is or ever was.
Anakin' skillset comes to mind. The combat approach adopted by Anakin differs from that of Obi-Wan. Dooku found Anakin more challenging opponent then Obi-Wan. However, both Anakin and Obi-Wan were helpless against Force powers of Count Dooku.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
And yet people like Vitiate, Yoda and Palpatine are the strongest in their era and the oldest.
Being strongest is not the point. My point is that aging does takes its toll on living beings. Impact may vary from character to character.

Example of Yoda:

The Convocation Center of the Galactic Senate was a drum-mounted dome more than a kilometer in diameter; even with the aid of the Force, Yoda was breathing hard by the time he reached its edge.

Example of Sidious:

The base of the Arena was a hundred meters below, littered with twisted scraps and jags of metal from the pods destroyed in the battle, and as the little green freak fell, finally, above, the victorious shadow became once again only Palpatine: a very old, very tired man, gasping for air as he leaned on the pod's rail.

Regarding Vitiate:

Vitiate gained immortality. He was not aging.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Decent command of the Force? Unless your name is Yoda or Sidious, Dooku is more powerful in the force than anyone in the PT.
Decent is not such a bad word. And you forgot Mace Windu.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The novelization excludes the fact that 5 minutes before the Duel Anakin was crying over his massacre of the Separatist Council. Soon after he force choked his wife. Add that to the fact that he was dueling his father figure who was a master of defense, Anakin was at a disadvantage.
No, the novel does not excludes any detail.

And you are forgetting one crucial philosophy of Sith; they use their emotions to fuel their power.

Anakin was fighting on the basis of the Sith philosophy.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
And yet with clarity he could defeat Dooku.
Your argument sounds like this:

A > B

Therefore, A > C too.

Am I right?

Try to understand the dynamic nature of Star Wars.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
If we are going by showings Kao was also more impressive than Ven Zallow, and yet Master Zallow is more reputable.
You underestimate Ven Zallow. However, repute is not always associated with power.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Please prove that Malgus has Force sight. Because if he doesn't he is not going to defeat three invisible opponents.
Read this:

Malgus relented in his attack, backed off a few steps, and reached out through the Force. Immediately he felt the faint, intentionally suppressed signature of another light-side user to his right. The Jedi's ally was hidden in the rubble, moving closer.

Malgus loosed a furious series of overhand strikes that forced the Zabrak to retreat rapidly. Sidestepping a stab from the Jedi, Malgus rode his motion into a Force-augmented side spinning side kick that hit the Jedi in the ribs and sent him cartwheeling into the wall of nearby building. At the same time, he reached out with the Force for the hidden light-side user, brushed aside the resistance he felt, and pulled the Jedi out of hiding.

A human male in his twenties rose up out of ruins, dangling like a fish on the hook of Malgus' power. His legs kicked futilely; the green blade of his lightsaber cut at empty air; he gagged as Malgus' power squeezed shut his throat.

"Vorin!" shouted the Zabrak.

"So much for your ambush," Malgus said, and closed his fist, crushing Vorin's windpipe. He let the body fall to the charred earth. (From SWTOR: TTL)

And not to forget, Malgus was wounded prior to this battle. He was not in good shape.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Concession accepted. Yoda is clearly Satele's superior. When Satele shows the TK to force push armies back and smash two of these. Come back. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/C-9979_landing_craft
Sidious (ROTS incarnation) also did not performed feats. He still proved to be a match for Yoda.

Satele Shan actually turned the tide of the war in Alderaan. The Sith were winning before her arrival. Does this gives you any hint?

Note this about Satele;

The Grand Master possessed prodigious Force powers. (Fatal Alliance Novel)

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No, not at all. People of Yoda's calibur have defeated seasoned bladesmasters like Kit Fisto in seconds. Fisto has proven to be on the same level of Kenobi.
Note this about Satele:

Her speed and decisiveness in combat were unbelievable. (Fatal Alliance Novel)

Still the example you provided is irrelevant because Sidious used the lightsaber to kill those 3 Jedi.

Satele used a special Force power to instantly kill 3 Sith Marauders simultaneously.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
They were clad in advanced Sith battle armor from head to toe.
Body Armor has limitations.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Ragdolling Kenobi and Skywalker isn't impressive? I beg to differ.
Assaj is not a Force prodigy. Her focus has been on honing her dueling abilities.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
As much as I hate using the Wookiepedia
"Each recruit was scrutinized to fit select size, strength, intelligence and loyalty requirements, as well as latent Force sensitivity." -Article on Royal Guards
This statement is not accurate. The citation contains this description:

Only the most promising of the Imperial ranks were selected for Royal Guard duty, based on stringent requirements of size, strength, intelligence, and loyalty.

Now where is the evidence of these guards being Force-users?

Also, here is similar showing from Satele:

http://i40.tinypic.com/2vte4qw.png

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Agen Kolar dominated Quinlan Vos. The same Quinlan Vos who defeated Sora Bulq.
Kit Fisto fought on par with Grievous. Grievous was capable of outdueling 5 Jedi including Shaak Ti and Ki-Adi Mundi.
Dude, they were skilled Jedi. No one is arguing about this. However, none of then was a Force prodigy and compared to likes of Satele.

To give you an idea; young Malgus cut down Kao - a highly skilled and powerful Jedi Master. Several years later, Satele manhandled a stronger incarnation of Malgus. There is no comparison.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
You can't be serious. Yoda has shown more acrobatics than Satele. You are grasping at straws here. And Yoda has also shown excellent mastery of Tutaminis.
Yoda' size and combat style favors acrobatics.

However, Satele also performs stunning acrobatics regardless of her size:

http://i44.tinypic.com/11mbwog.png

http://i40.tinypic.com/wmilig.png

And we have not seen Yoda blocking a lightsabet strike with hands like Satele. She holds her own.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Shaak Ti has also absorbed saber blows with her bare hands. Satele's feats put her at around Shaak Ti's level and that's generous.
Canonical evidence will be appreciated. Even if true, this would represent Shaak Ti' talent. And not that of Yoda.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Disarming Palpatine actually proves that Yoda is extremely strong. If Yoda could lock blades with people like Palpatine and Dooku who have Mace-level strength, he is strong. Or do I need to remind you that Mace Windu beat through an army of Super Battle Droids with his bear hands.
Sorry. This is flawed argument. Yoda is strong in the Force but not a physical brute. Malgus is a physical brute and has demonstrated the capability to lift a human being with a single hand and squeeze him/her to death. Now holding the Force-augmented blow of such a physical brute at bay with one hand and ripping apart the foundations of a gigantic Tree with a gesture of another hand simultaneously is amazing display of power from Satele.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No, no not at all. Not when it's Thousands of Droids. And certainly does not match Yoda's TKing 4 landing craft.
Look at the size of the boulder behind Malgus. We don't get to see the whole of it though:

http://i41.tinypic.com/14tadkg.png

A boulder of this size would be extremely heavy; weighing hundreds of tons or possibly more. Satele' power shattered it into tiny pieces.

And keep in mind that this is not the maximum from Satete. She was a Jedi Knight during this time.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
She blocked GG's blow. She was sent flying because the General was ridiculously strong, but she still blocked the blow.
Ok. But canonical evidence will be appreciated.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Because Yoda is far more powerful than Shaak Ti and there is nothing suggesting he could not match that feat.
Yoda certainly is. However, this does not proves that Yoda would match every talent of Shaak Ti. For example; Shaak Ti could control fauna and manipulate nature.

Yoda has his own share of talents and skills.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
When has Yoda needed to?
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070901030607/starwars/images/a/a6/YodaCatch-hd.jpg
I know that Yoda was good with Tutaminis. However, to what degree is open to speculation. We don't know if he could actually block a lightsaber strike with his hands. This is open to speculation.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Lol in his prime Qui-Gon sparred on par with Mace Windu.
And also Qui-Gon was a master of Ataru, Yoda was the Master of Ataru.
I know that Yoda is better the Qui-Gon. However, Satele is also better then Qui-Gon.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Cute.
Thanks.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No, but let's see how Mace handles having the Senate thrown at him.
Lol

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No Revan and Bastilla are featless. So they are irrelevant.
Featless?

The quest for the Star Forge, which spanned worlds, kept Revan and Bastila working side-by-side, and thrust Bastila into difficult and challenging roles as a Jedi. (Official databank)

How can one remain featless after going through this?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
His most notable kill is Ven Zallow. Ven Zallow cannot compare to the man who reinvented form VII and is a master of Shatterpoints. Malgus would be reduced to a little cyborg ball by Windu.
You should read SWTOR: TTS

Yoda blocked Sidious' Force Lightning through Tutaminis. Considering this is the same Force Lightning that bent Mace Windu's lightsaber back at his face, I'd say Yoda is more than adequately qualified in Tutaminis.

Even if not, you yourself have said that people have different strengths and specialities. Yoda has demonstrated power and fought evenly with foes beyond anything Satale has. The two don't even compare.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yoda blocked Sidious' Force Lightning through Tutaminis. Considering this is the same Force Lightning that bent Mace Windu's lightsaber back at his face, I'd say Yoda is more than adequately qualified in Tutaminis.

Even if not, you yourself have said that people have different strengths and specialities. Yoda has demonstrated power and fought evenly with foes beyond anything Satale has. The two don't even compare.

I'm not going to make an absolute argument to contradict you here, but to be fair to Satele, in Fatal Alliance she is able to shield herself completely from the vacuum of space, mentally dominate droids which have very small organic parts, and crumples said droids up like tinfoil balls at the drop of a hat.

She's not the greatest evah, but she's certainly up there.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I'm not going to make an absolute argument to contradict you here, but to be fair to Satele, in Fatal Alliance she is able to shield herself completely from the vacuum of space, mentally dominate droids which have very small organic parts, and crumples said droids up like tinfoil balls at the drop of a hat.

She's not the greatest evah, but she's certainly up there.

Certainly. I'm not saying she's weak, she is after all Jedi Grandmaster. I just think that LeGeND is being somewhat overzealous in his desire to have the ToR-era eclipse the PT one in all regards.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Certainly. I'm not saying she's weak, she is after all Jedi Grandmaster. I just think that LeGeND is being somewhat overzealous in his desire to have the ToR-era eclipse the PT one in all regards.
I don't get paid for debating TOR characters.

Point is that you need to understand that Star Wars will never be the same like it was 5 years ago.

You don't have any problem with overpowering of characters in DE or later era? Why complain about TOR only?

In fact, TOR has also introduced new Force powers. The developers would try to keep new works interesting to generate sales.

But Yoda' reputation is still solid in the grand picture. However, if you assume that no Jedi could rival him or surpass him barring Luke, you are sadly mistaken.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD


You don't have any problem with overpowering of characters in DE or later era? Why complain about TOR only?
We don;t, but you do. You have that strange habit of grossly exaggerating anything stated in TOR era media(games, trailers)yet you either completely ignore other sources that show the same level, or greater powers(TFU,DE) than the ones in TOR trailers.

Thats basically the whole reason nobody takes you that seriously.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD


But Yoda' reputation is still solid in the grand picture. However, if you assume that no Jedi could rival him or surpass him barring Luke, you are sadly mistaken. I'd say the TOR characters don't eclipse the PT characters at all. Yoda lifted an entire mountain while Mace was stated to to have levitated and gripped 100 tons of rock.

Are TOR characters pretty powerful? Damn right, but don't make gross exaggeratings.

And why bother debating here? Go enjoy the game, its one hell of a worthy investment

Originally posted by shinkoryu
We don;t, but you do. You have that strange habit of grossly exaggerating anything stated in TOR era media(games, trailers)yet you either completely ignore other sources that show the same level, or greater powers(TFU,DE) than the ones in TOR trailers.

Thats basically the whole reason nobody takes you that seriously. Bingo.

The same thing can be applied to the pro PT debaters.

No it can't.

Of course it can. What Legend does with the TOR era, LS does with the PT era.

He definitely doesn't.

AH the joys of biased mixed up in the illusion of objectivity.

There's no bias or illusions here.

Wut?

Yoda's really good.... Just saying.....

I recall Mace using a TK grip on a landslide in Shatterpoint, which was fairly impressive, but I don't recall specifically "100 tons of rock". Additionally, when did Yoda lift an entire mountain? Certainly not in any novel I've read.

to save luminara and her weird-lipped padawan from robots.

Originally posted by shinkoryu
We don;t, but you do. You have that strange habit of grossly exaggerating anything stated in TOR era media(games, trailers)yet you either completely ignore other sources that show the same level, or greater powers(TFU,DE) than the ones in TOR trailers.
You speak for member Nephthys now?

Your accusations are baseless. I have no issue with overpowering of Post-OT characters. I don't complain over these matters.

However, I do have a problem with those who use 'hyperbolic statements' and 'misrepresent actual information' to support their point of view.

Originally posted by shinkoryu
Thats basically the whole reason nobody takes you that seriously.
Another misconception. Many do read my responses.

Originally posted by shinkoryu
I'd say the TOR characters don't eclipse the PT characters at all. Yoda lifted an entire mountain while Mace was stated to to have levitated and gripped 100 tons of rock.
Where did I said that TOR characters eclipse PT characters? Vitiate seems to be the only exception among all others in my opinion.

I have explicitly stated that Yoda' reputation is still solid in the grand picture. And you forgot to provide evidence of your claim of lifting the entire mountain.

Originally posted by shinkoryu
Are TOR characters pretty powerful? Damn right, but don't make gross exaggeratings.
I do not.

PT/OT fans specially need to consider your advice.

Originally posted by shinkoryu
And why bother debating here? Go enjoy the game, its one hell of a worthy investment
I come here to;

1. Express my point of view
2. Address any misconceptions, when applicable
3. Learn from others

Though I am not as regular as I once used to be.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD


Your accusations are baseless. I have no issue with overpowering of Post-OT characters. I don't complain over these matters.
Not baseless when almost everyone else seems to think so.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

However, I do have a problem with those who use 'hyperbolic statements' and 'misrepresent actual information' to support their point of view. Speak for yourself. Thats hilarious you're trying to convince me this.




Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Where did I said that TOR characters eclipse PT characters? Vitiate seems to be the only exception among all others in my opinion.

I have explicitly stated that Yoda' reputation is still solid in the grand picture. And you forgot to provide evidence of your claim of lifting the entire mountain.
I'd agree with vitiate, although based on my experience in SWTOR, most of his strength is amplified through dirty tricks like trinkets and rituals.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

I do not. (you sure as hell do)

PT/OT fans specially need to consider your advice.
I'd say the only one who needs to do that is Lightsnake.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

I come here to;

1. Express my point of view
2. Address any misconceptions, when applicable
3. Learn from others

Corrected.

Originally posted by shinkoryu
Not baseless when almost everyone else seems to think so. Speak for yourself. Thats hilarious you're trying to convince me this.
You should provide concrete evidence. At worst, I possibly have my share of misjudgements. Opinions are not sufficient.

Originally posted by shinkoryu
I'd say the only one who needs to do that is Lightsnake.
No. Almost every PT/OT fan needs to.

Don't agree with me? Go check the Anakin vs Malgus thread for reference.

Originally posted by shinkoryu
Corrected.
You are wrong again. I have learned a lot from these debates.

My return is much better. Managed to address several misconceptions in recent debates. There is hardly any individual with whom I can't debate now.

However, member Borbarad still seems to be very challenging debator. He has amazing grasp of things. He is probably the best.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You should provide concrete evidence. At worst, I possibly have my share of misjudgements. Opinions are not sufficient.


No. Almost every PT/OT fan needs to.

Don't agree with me? Go check the Anakin vs Malgus thread for reference.
Not convinced.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD


You are wrong again. I have learned a lot from these debates.

My return is much better. Managed to address several misconceptions in recent debates. There is hardly any individual with whom I can't debate now.

However, member Borbarad still seems to be very challenging debator. He has amazing grasp of things. He is probably the best. Hardly any individual you can't debate with?

The real answer is hardly anybody wants to engage in a debate with you, considering your over zealous attempts to downplay any source that works against your favour.

To put it shortly : You're friggin delusional.

Originally posted by shinkoryu
Not convinced.
How about you prove your accusations first?

Originally posted by shinkoryu
Hardly any individual you can't debate with?

The real answer is hardly anybody wants to engage in a debate with you, considering your over zealous attempts to downplay any source that works against your favour.

To put it shortly : You're friggin delusional.
This seems like a desperate attempt of personal attack on me. You are wasting my time.

And by the way, I get ample debates. Sometimes, I don't have time for them.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
How about you prove your accusations first?


This seems like a desperate attempt of personal attack on me. You are wasting my time.

And by the way, I get ample debates. Sometimes, I don't have time for them. The evidence is all over the place, the problem is that you choose to not except it.

Originally posted by shinkoryu
The evidence is all over the place, the problem is that you choose to not except it. Accept it. He often 'excepts' it.

Originally posted by shinkoryu
The evidence is all over the place, the problem is that you choose to not except it.
Elaborate with examples please.

What I am 100% sure is that Kit Fisto will die from first lightsaber blow.
Also, in lightsaber combat Malak doesn't stand a chance against Obi-Wan but Obi-Wan might embarrassingly loose by being force choked.

So Obi-Wan is ranked higher than Malak in saber combat? I wasn't aware any source made this connection definitive.

Malak is an unknown in terms of lightsaber abilities. Obi-Wan on the otherhand is well established as being extremely skilled. Known to be skilled >>> Unknown imo.

So here's what I'm seeing:

P1. Malak is an "unknown", which apparently means that despite having an obvious reputation and standing in a Sith Empire based entirely on Force mastery and martial prowess, he didn't swing his glowstick on a television screen and therefore cannot be quantified.

P2. Obi-Wan, while being the lovable underdog of damn near every fight but Grievious (who isn't a Force user), notoriously turtles in combat and has easily and conclusively defeated no Sith Lords (Anakin was an epic struggle which he barely won, Maul outclassed him early on and left himself open to bisection, Dooku and Sidious were well beyond Obi-Wan's level, Ventres routinely challenged him and sometimes outclassed him, etc.), but is a "known" by virtue of being in live media with tons of exposure.

Conclusion: Characters with more live media showings always beat characters who do not benefit from this kind of exposure. This is more reasonable than saying "Not enough data is present to conclusively put Obi-Wan over a Sith Lord, even though Obi-Wan has a great spanning record of either being dominated by or barely beating Sith Lords through PIS".

Also, by this kind of logic, Obi-Wan beats Revan, Malgus, and Meetra Surik in saber combat alone. New debating fallacy: Arguing the Unknown as Conclusively Inferior.

Mothafvcka did I use the word 'conclusively?' estahuh

I said that IMO someone with actual quatifiable showings should be ranked higher than someone with jack diddly squat. Also Malgus can be quantified in saber combat noob. As to the other two, yeah, I see nothing wrong with saying that based on what they've shown (or rather, havn't) Obi-Wan is superior.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Mothafvcka did I use the word 'conclusively?' estahuh

I said that IMO someone with actual quatifiable showings should be ranked higher than someone with jack diddly squat. Also Malgus can be quantified in saber combat noob. As to the other two, yeah, I see nothing wrong with saying that based on what they've shown (or rather, havn't) Obi-Wan is superior.

A has an unknown value. B has a value of 10. Therefore, B is greater than A.

I'm so glad you agree.

All I'm saying that Malak is an Unknown and if we are using him in threads even though we shouldn't be we can't assume he's higher than a master swordsman like Kenobi. In a versus thread when one side has shown a high degree of competence and the other hasn't, yes, I'm inclined to side with the former.

I don't see people disagreeing with the idea that Palpatine can beat Vitiate because the latter has never shown anything with a lightsaber.

The retardation on this page alone is giving me a headache.
I'll point out some of the silliness tomorow, after I get off-work. Ugh, though. Ugh.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm so glad you agree.

All I'm saying that Malak is an Unknown and if we are using him in threads even though we shouldn't be we can't assume he's higher than a master swordsman like Kenobi. In a versus thread when one side has shown a high degree of competence and the other hasn't, yes, I'm inclined to side with the former.

I don't see people disagreeing with the idea that Palpatine can beat Vitiate because the latter has never shown anything with a lightsaber.

Example:

Exar Kun lifts his lightsaber less than ten times in the comics. Never once in animation, where his "speed" and technique can be easily examined.

Obi-Wan Kenobi has countless lightsaber showings. While not all impressive (he is outclassed by many big names and all Sith in the storyline), his exposure is immense.

According to arbitrary decision, Exar Kun's limited showings are negligible, despite the fact that he was a "master swordsman", and none could defeat him in combat.

Obi-Wan, on the other hand, fares relatively poorly in combat against true Sith and major players, but wins through sheer luck and pluck rather than better skill, despite exposure.

Conclusion. Exar Kun is arbitrarily an unknown, therefore Obi-Wan wins.

Sub in "Malak" or "Malgus" for "Exar Kun", same argument. Either you accept that Sith Lords who head meritocratic orders founded on tenets of "killing ****ers who have higher titles than you if you can" are "better than Obi-Wan who gets knocked about like a handball 9 times out of 10", or you ascribe to the philosophy that "Oh, they haven't done enough for me to judge; therefore their standing is irrelevant AND Obi-Wan wins despite inconclusive evidence IMO".

It's like having your cake and defiling it too.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Example:

Exar Kun lifts his lightsaber less than ten times in the comics. Never once in animation, where his "speed" and technique can be easily examined.

Obi-Wan Kenobi has countless lightsaber showings. While not all impressive (he is outclassed by many big names and all Sith in the storyline), his exposure is immense.

According to arbitrary decision, Exar Kun's limited showings are negligible, despite the fact that he was a "master swordsman", and none could defeat him in combat.

Obi-Wan, on the other hand, fares relatively poorly in combat against true Sith and major players, but wins through sheer luck and pluck rather than better skill, despite exposure.

Conclusion. Exar Kun is arbitrarily an unknown, therefore Obi-Wan wins.

The fact that you need to continue to talk about people other than Malak just proves that you can't think of any evidence to support the notion that he's in Obi-Wan's league. Your example is flawed because we actually do have evidence of Exar Kun's lightsaber prowess in both that 'master swordsman' line and with his duel with Uliq Qel-Droma, who is himself a brilliant swordsman capable of holding off an enraged Jedi Master while cut off from the Force and after 13 years without practise. So no, Exar Kun is not an unknown. Try again.

By contrast, who exactly has Malak defeated? Amnesiac Revan. Bastila. Carth. Two random jedi who had just fought through the Star Forge. Oh no wait, none of that was with a lightsaber! Well he got his ass kicked by untrained Force Sensitive Jarael while sparring once. But I doubt thats a point in his favor. Hmmm. mmm

Nope, can't really think of anything else. Of course though being the head of the Sith Order means that he's clearly superior to Kenobi. I mean he had such opposition in the form of...... Bandon? The headmaster on Korriban?

BTW, your stance is also faulty in that you assume that I'd see declaring Exar Kun an Unknown as some giant fallacy. If the scenario really was as you described it and there really was limited evidence of Kun's lightsaber abilities, then I'd have no problem with it at all. Just like I'd have no problem with saying that Obi-Wan has shown himself to be more impressive than, say, Marka Ragnos has. But of course thats absurd. Its not as if Marka Ragnos was defeated by a padawan who received basically no training or anything.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Sub in "Malak" or "Malgus" for "Exar Kun", same argument. Either you accept that Sith Lords who head meritocratic orders founded on tenets of "killing ****ers who have higher titles than you if you can" are "better than Obi-Wan who gets knocked about like a handball 9 times out of 10", or you ascribe to the philosophy that "Oh, they haven't done enough for me to judge; therefore their standing is irrelevant AND Obi-Wan wins despite inconclusive evidence IMO".

It's like having your cake and defiling it too.

Yes Master, please teach me the ways of Teh Logicks. I've already learnt to mock my opposition when they disagree with me to make my argument look better. Aren't I a good little Padawan? :wag tail:

umad bro?

Also, Obi-Wan is considered a "master swordsman" of his era too. So apparently he is an equal with Exar Kun, unless Kun is arbitarily declared to be an unknown.

The point of the argument was not to make an objective argument for/against Kun or even for/against Malak, but to indicate how ridiculous it is to apply the title "unknown" to something and therefore conclude it is "inferior".

Vene was making fun of this with his argument:

A has an unknown value. B has a value of 10. Therefore, B is greater than A.

It would be relatively simple to establish that Darth Malak is a big dog in his era, and that his lightsaber skill is likely second only to Revan, who himself is an unparalleled duelist and the strongest Jedi evah of that era according to the novel. By virtue of being a powerful Sith Lord, formerly Jedi Guardian, war veteran, and rocking a purple half-cape, Malak holds a claim to being "inherently dangerous in saber combat". The fact that he can spam high level Dark Side powers is simply an added bonus that would factor into any normal battle anyways.

It is relatively difficult to establish Obi-Wan as being above anyone in saber prowess in his era unless you include almost tertiary Jedi Masters, padawans, Coleman Trebor (there's a bar there - Jango Fett), etc. The list of people above Obi-Wan include: Dooku, Yoda, Mace Windu, Ventress (for a good while), Anakin Skywalker, Sidious, possibly Maul, and before RotS, Kit "Sidious killed me in seconds" Fisto.

Let's talk about the people who are conclusively better than Malak in KotOR.

1. Revan.
2. ?
Wait, no that's about it.

You're free to "IMO" all you'd like. I just find it incredibly hilarious how Malak is written off as an "unknown". He seems pretty important and powerful in his own setting, compared to Obi-Wan who is "above average" and has lost many battles against "Sith Lords".




This is adorable, however.

Sources say that Obi-Wan is one of the greatest duelists of his time, "his skill with a lightsaber rivaling even Yoda and Mace Windu". I think he proved it by surviving fight with Anakin and it was surprisingly long and fierce fight. I mentioned Force choke because it was the only reason why Dooku was able to beat him. But combat wise Obi was more than capable to take him down.

Originally posted by Nephthys
By contrast, who exactly has Malak defeated? Amnesiac Revan. Bastila. Carth.
Malak defeated them simultaneously.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Two random jedi who had just fought through the Star Forge.
Malak defeated them simultaneously.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh no wait, none of that was with a lightsaber!
Your argument is flawed.

Malak clashed with Revan using his lightsaber on several occasions and survived. Is this not an indication of his skill?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well he got his ass kicked by untrained Force Sensitive Jarael while sparring once. But I doubt thats a point in his favor. Hmmm. mmm
Untrained Jarael? This is far fetched. She is a very skilled combatant. Have you even read the comics?

Also, Jarael did not defeat Malak through her skills in melee combat. She knocked him out through a gun.

And Malak was actually training her. It was not a life and death situation and neither Malak was trying to kill her.

Meritocratic order? Didn't Malak get the job in the first place by attacking Revan with a capital ship? mmm

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
umad bro?

No, I was just high on coke at the time. So I was a little jittery.


Coke Cola that is.....


Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Also, Obi-Wan is considered a "master swordsman" of his era too. So apparently he is an equal with Exar Kun, unless Kun is arbitarily declared to be an unknown.

Well I think its pretty illogical to assume that all master swordsmen are equal in skill.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
The point of the argument was not to make an objective argument for/against Kun or even for/against Malak, but to indicate how ridiculous it is to apply the title "unknown" to something and therefore conclude it is "inferior".

I don't see it as being ridiculous at all. As I've stated numerous times though that I don't think that the question should really even be raised, as Malak's lightsaber abilities are completely unknown. However, if we are arguing them, indeed if we are ranking them, then Obi-Wan gets placed higher due to the simple fact that he's actually done something. If it was up to me then Malak wouldn't even be on the list in the first place. However, we are discussing this. In which case I say that since Obi-Wan can actually back up his skills rather than just having some speculation about his abilities, then I say he's superior based upon what we know.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Vene was making fun of this with his argument:

A has an unknown value. B has a value of 10. Therefore, B is greater than A.

It would be relatively simple to establish that Darth Malak is a big dog in his era, and that his lightsaber skill is likely second only to Revan, who himself is an unparalleled duelist and the strongest Jedi evah of that era according to the novel. By virtue of being a powerful Sith Lord, formerly Jedi Guardian, war veteran, and rocking a purple half-cape, Malak holds a claim to being "inherently dangerous in saber combat". The fact that he can spam high level Dark Side powers is simply an added bonus that would factor into any normal battle anyways.

Oh man, I forgot about his purple cape. Ok, discussion over, I conceed!

(Also Revan is hardly an unparelled duelist last I checked. Dude has done nothing with a lightsaber beyond killing some Non-Force Sensistives)

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
It is relatively difficult to establish Obi-Wan as being above anyone in saber prowess in his era unless you include almost tertiary Jedi Masters, padawans, Coleman Trebor (there's a bar there - Jango Fett), etc. The list of people above Obi-Wan include: Dooku, Yoda, Mace Windu, Ventress (for a good while), Anakin Skywalker, Sidious, possibly Maul, and before RotS, Kit "Sidious killed me in seconds" Fisto.

Let's talk about the people who are conclusively better than Malak in KotOR.

1. Revan.
2. ?
Wait, no that's about it.

You're assuming that since Malak was the second greatest combatant of his era then he's automatically one of the greatest ever. Thats hardly logical at all. I mean, look back at my comment about Marka Ragnos. Greatest Sith Lord of his era, the Golden Age of the Sith, taken out by a padawan. You're assuming that the era's are always comparable. The Clone Wars era just happens to have a lot of well documented, powerful combatants. Kotor? Lol, not so much. I would put every single person you mention as being above Obi-Wan above Malak as well.

Also Revan was able to defeat Malak despite him being amped by the Star Forge and able to revive and rejuvenate himself multiple times, after fighting through the Star forge and defeating Bastila. Don't act as if only being weaker than Revan is impressive, because he was ALOT weaker than Revan and other than that there really were not that many impressive combatants in KotOR.


Originally posted by Stealth Moose
You're free to "IMO" all you'd like. I just find it incredibly hilarious how Malak is written off as an "unknown". He seems pretty important and powerful in his own setting, compared to Obi-Wan who is "above average" and has lost many battles against "Sith Lords".

Again, there is nothing but speculation about how skilled Malak really was. When theres such a difference between the feats of two combatants, theres a greater burden is on the one defending the lesser known combatant to establish why exactly he can compete with the more well-established and greater displays of the second. You've been very dismissive of Obi-Wan's abilities in this discussion, so if you want I could explain why exactly he's considered a skilled swordsman. Or I could if you didn't know damn well why that is already. So instead I ask you, why do you think he can compete? Because he was a Sith Lord in a time when there were no notable combatants besides himself and Revan? Because he 'seems' powerful? Seriously, I'm not seeing it.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Malak defeated them simultaneously.

You can't tell, but I assure you that the clap I'm currently doing is both sarcastic and dismissive.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Malak defeated them simultaneously.

http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-downsbravo.gif


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Your argument is flawed.

Malak clashed with Revan using his lightsaber on several occasions and survived. Is this not an indication of his skill?

Considering theres no idication of Revan's skill either, nope!

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Untrained Jarael? This is far fetched. She is a very skilled combatant. Have you even read the comics?

Also, Jarael did not defeat Malak through her skills in melee combat. She knocked him out through a gun.

And Malak was actually training her. It was not a life and death situation and neither Malak was trying to kill her.

I meant untrained in the ways of the Force.

That's an awesome clap.

Something Awful gets all the best smilies.

http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-sotw.gif

Originally posted by Nephthys
You can't tell, but I assure you that the clap I'm currently doing is both sarcastic and dismissive.


http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-downsbravo.gif
Thank you for the clap. However, it is indicative of your incompetency.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Considering theres no idication of Revan's skill either, nope!
No indication?

1. He effortlessely blocked blaster fire from Mandalorians and cut down some with saber throw technique. I guess Soresu is best form for countering blaster fire?

2. He damaged a huge droid by just using his lightsaber, killing its rider in the process. Anakin and Yoda have comparable showings during Clone Wars as far as I remember.

3. He effortlessely outsmarted and killed an elite guard prior to his second confrontation with Vitiate. The elite guards were stated to be formidable opponents for even Jedi. They were giving tough time to Scourge and Meetra, both of whom were expert duelists.

Now you still think that Revan' skills with the lightsaber are not clear?

Originally posted by Nephthys I meant untrained in the ways of the Force.
Is it a requirement? Non-Force users have proven to be lethal combatants too.

And Malak was training Jarael. Get over it.

His fight with Demagol was serious though and Malak overpowered him. The former would have died without intervention from his friends.

That ordering tho...

Malak was already possibly above the likes of Nadd and Kun. With the Star Forge I would say he dethrones Kun of his "strongest Sith" title unless you think DLOTS Revan did already.

More powerful than Exar Kun it seems

Originally posted by TheIndyJedi
More powerful than Exar Kun it seems

Yeah no, the Star Forge is massively less important since the SWTOR: Encyclopedia. It also incidentally outright debunks the quote you all love.

Extremely powerful. Top 10-15 Sith quality.

Originally posted by The Merchant
Malak was already possibly above the likes of Nadd and Kun. With the Star Forge I would say he dethrones Kun of his "strongest Sith" title unless you think DLOTS Revan did already.

Originally posted by TheIndyJedi
More powerful than Exar Kun it seems