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Superman has 'super intelligence' so all things being equal he "should" be smarter than Batman and able to out think him strategically. In application, that doesn't always work. For this thread (1st in a series) the stips are as follows:

-The fight takes place in a boxing ring under a red sun lamp. Superman doesn't have his super strength or invulnerability, but retains his intellect and super speed of thought.
-Batman and Superman will play a round of Chess for 3 minutes. After the 3 minute Chess round, they will fight each other for a 3 minute round. Unarmed combat, but anything goes (MMA).
-There will be 6 rounds of chess and 6 rounds of fighting.
-Victory can be achieved via knock out or Checkmate on the chess board.

Who wins the fight, and how (by knockout, or Checkmate)?

Discuss.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
Superman has 'super intelligence' so all things being equal he "should" be smarter than Batman and able to out think him strategically. In application, that doesn't always work. For this thread (1st in a series) the stips are as follows:

-The fight takes place in a boxing ring under a red sun lamp. Superman doesn't have his super strength or invulnerability, but retains his intellect and super speed of thought.
-Batman and Superman will play a round of Chess for 3 minutes. After the 3 minute Chess round, they will fight each other for a 3 minute round. Unarmed combat, but anything goes (MMA).
-There will be 6 rounds of chess and 6 rounds of fighting.
-Victory can be achieved via knock out or Checkmate on the chess board.

Who wins the fight, and how (by knockout, or Checkmate)?

Discuss. Chessmatch could go either way. Batman handily wins the boxing match Clark is a capable brawler but he is not on batmans level in H2H.

bats

Since Superman retains his super perceptions, its almost like giving him precog. Every eyeball shift, every feint, every step, they'll all be in slow motion to be countered.

Superman will Ali Batman's overrated ass.
http://www.gifb.in/bin/1234778873_Muhammad_Ali_dodging_punches.gif


And in the chess he'll have gone through every possible maneuver in a nanosecond.

Really? How many times, when he has his powers, has Bruce still been able to surprise him?

Superman is smart, but he's never applied it as well as Bruce does.

P.I.S.


When Batman is so slow that he can be a proverbial statue to you, you should never, ever be surprised by him.

There's what should happen if you try to reason this out logically, and then there's what would happen.

Logically, Clark can process millions of calculations per second. Logically, as Cosmic said, he should be able to react to Bruce's moves physically in a precog sort of way.

But...Batman would beat the shit out of him.

What 'should' happen is a given, and inarguable. What 'would' happen is but mere conjecture. We have no way of knowing how a writer would play out this exact scenario in a comic. It depends on the writer's leanings and the particular story he's trying to tell.

But it doesn't seem impossible for me to imagine my scenario happening in a book, since writers at least KNOW that this is what logically should happen. We've seen Superman raise his awareness to match Flash and the world around them was frozen, afterall.

In short, books aren't reliable, much of the time. By his super perception attribute still being in play as per the op, Superman f*cks Batman's shit.

Bump.

Because Wu Tang Clan is for the children.

Also, none of you think that Superman can beat Batman in a game of Chess in under 3 minutes? Round 1 is Chess, not fighting.

kl6jwab3HWk

ole dirty solos

In bleach someone gave another person super senses but without the body to maintain it... His body ended up with a sensory overload and every reaction was countered by the force of thought as to why the body couldn't move fast enough... Imagine sitting there for an hour to raise your arm an inch... And you had to sit there doing that just to move that arm... How mad insane would you get not being able to do anything. Forced to sit by waiting for your body to do what you want.

B-Wayne steamrolling supahs like a eighteen wheeler
with the drunk driver driving, there's no surviving.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Since Superman retains his super perceptions, its almost like giving him precog. Every eyeball shift, every feint, every step, they'll all be in slow motion to be countered.

Superman will Ali Batman's overrated ass.
http://www.gifb.in/bin/1234778873_Muhammad_Ali_dodging_punches.gif


And in the chess he'll have gone through every possible maneuver in a nanosecond.

Given the massive gap in speed and skill it shouldn't matter. For instance, even if I had the ability to perceive a bullet fired at me in super slow motion, I still wouldn't be fast enough to avoid it... the only benefit that ability would afford me would be an extended period to ponder the fact that I was about to get shot in my face. Superman vs Batman isn't as extreme obviously, but the results would be the same.

Skill? Reflexes are the biggest component of skill. And Clark will have the advantage here.

And what huge speed advantage will Bruce have? It will be two peak humans against each other.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
Also, none of you think that Superman can beat Batman in a game of Chess in under 3 minutes? Round 1 is Chess, not fighting.

It's not seed chess .... so batman just takes three minutes for each move and kicks Clark's ass in the ring.

As proved by Mr X when trying to fight quicksilver, it doesn't matter if you know exactly what the other guy is going to do if you're not physically fast enough to stop him from doing it.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Skill? Reflexes are the biggest component of skill. And Clark will have the advantage here.

And what huge speed advantage will Bruce have? It will be two peak humans against each other.

Clark is not peak human. Beneath the red light he's a big, strong, healthy specimen of hardworking farmboy. That's not the same as spending most of your life honing your body to literally be all that you can. That doesn't entail the kind of conditioning that comes with working your way up from punching sand through punching gravel to punching cinder blocks.

Also, reflexes are not the biggest component of skill. Successfully capitalizing on your advantages your opponents deficiencies while preventing him from doing the same to you is what expertise is all about.

Originally posted by Laminator_X
Clark is not peak human. Beneath the red light he's a big, strong, healthy specimen of hardworking farmboy. That's not the same as spending most of your life honing your body to literally be all that you can. That doesn't entail the kind of conditioning that comes with working your way up from punching sand through punching gravel to punching cinder blocks.

Also, reflexes are not the biggest component of skill. Successfully capitalizing on your advantages your opponents deficiencies while preventing him from doing the same to you is what expertise is all about.

I'm damn sure depowered Clark has beaten Kobra before in h2h. A villain that has given Bruce some trouble in that regard. Given Delph's stips, he's much more than peak human by virtue of his super perceptions being in-tact.


Going to quote myself for a second:

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Skill is basically a mix of reflexes, general speed, hand eye coordination, agility, and ultimately how much damage you can dish out while avoiding taking damage at the same time.


So in the end, all you gave me was an end-definition to skill that more or less matches my own. There is no contradiction.

Of that end definition, what contributes the most though? Reflexes do. If your reflexes are innately far superior to your opponent's, you have a big advantage. And their technical know-how and other attributes are going to have to be sufficiently better to compensate for just that one.

Clark is a skilled martial artist himself. He knows practical things like boxing, judo-like throws, as well as completely bullshit things like pressure points and all that shit. I would say Bruce is still greatly more experienced in this regard, however, Clark's perceptions are literally like trillions of times above his and that is the bigger factor.

Clark's body is not fast enough in this scenario to make movement speeds to match that perception speed, so he's not going to go flash on bruce, but he IS fast enough to counter and block whatever he sees coming from bruce at super slow motion.

Even without this perception speed, Clark would be able to dodge at least a couple of shots from Bruce. But with it? He shouldn't be getting hit at all.

Originally posted by Scoobless
It's not seed chess .... so batman just takes three minutes for each move and kicks Clark's ass in the ring.

As proved by Mr X when trying to fight quicksilver, it doesn't matter if you know exactly what the other guy is going to do if you're not physically fast enough to stop him from doing it.
Bruce is fast but I seriously doubt the speed difference here is that much.

Can we all just agree that batman clearly has some kind of meta ability that reduces his opponents durability, speed and strength to street level when he's in combat with them.

I can agree to that. It's called the power of shitty writing.

Which can be fun...in some cases. But with Batman, it has gotten old quick. I miss seeing Bane break his back.

Bruce should win this. Without the speed or reflexes to match clarks senses, they wouldnt really do much. just because to supes it will look like a few seconds for a punch to reach him doesn't change the fact that it's moving in real time, and supes own moves would look like slo-mo to him also since his perception is so much faster than his movement. Picture the scene from Spiderman 1 when pete dodges flashes punches. Without the speed/reflexes to back up his senses he would just be watching himself get punched in the face in slo-mo. It might give him a small edge by letting him notice a strike is coming a little sooner and give him a chance to react to it but Bruce's speed, reflex, and skill advantage should easily overcome that.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Bruce is fast but I seriously doubt the speed difference here is that much.

I wasn't saying the seed difference was THAT much, just that there is one, also that knowing you're about to be kicked in the throat doesn't mean you can avoid it.

if anything, heightened mental speed coupled with slow physical speed is more of a hindrance than a help - too much time to think about changing your move, no time to actually do it.

If I read the OP right, I guess Batman runs out the 3 minute clock in chess then proceeds kill Superman in a fight.

So Batman isn't a good enough strategist to beat Superman in Chess in under 3 minutes and has to resort to a physical fight that he's not guaranteed to win?

Originally posted by Uriel005
Can we all just agree that batman clearly has some kind of meta ability that reduces his opponents durability, speed and strength to street level when he's in combat with them. They also go retarded when he's in a book with them.



It's the Bat-force.

Depowered Supes is still a very capable fighter. It's been shown many times on panel that Supes, while completely powerless, isn't helpless against super-villains. I think the reflexes/speed thing is being played up a bit here. I'm pretty sure he can survive 180 seconds with Batman.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
So Batman isn't a good enough strategist to beat Superman in Chess in under 3 minutes?

No, he isn't, not in only three minutes. maybe in thirty. Chess just isn't a fast game

even if he could beat superman in a few moves, i think batman would actually want to kick him in the neck in the next round a lot more. i would

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Skill? Reflexes are the biggest component of skill. And Clark will have the advantage here.

And what huge speed advantage will Bruce have? It will be two peak humans against each other.

Clark isn't peak human under a red sun, even Olympic would be a stretch.

There is more to skill than reflex. Batman has perfect application of technique, meaning all things being equal between him and Clark (which they aren't), Bruce will be attacking with %100 efficiency with the movement of his punches and kicks allowing him to get more of his body weight behind his attacks, more torque, more acceleration, more snap and more speed and power behind all of his attacks.

Batman wins.

This is an awesome thread!
Sure if you aren't fast enough then your reflexes are moot.

It all depends on how much faster Bats is over Clark. With equal movement speed Clark owns. If Bats is more than 4 times as fast then he wins. Remember in boxing your hands are already up so you would only have to move your arms or head about 1/4 of the distance the attack was thrown at in order to block or parry. Plus Clark has got good countering ability if he is fast enough.

Thus I reduced this debate to

HOW FAST IS BATMAN OVER CLARK?

Not so much faster that he overcomes the perception advantage.

Originally posted by h1a8
This is an awesome thread!
Sure if you aren't fast enough then your reflexes are moot.

It all depends on how much faster Bats is over Clark. With equal movement speed Clark owns. If Bats is more than 4 times as fast then he wins. Remember in boxing your hands are already up so you would only have to move your arms or head about 1/4 of the distance the attack was thrown at in order to block or parry. Plus Clark has got good countering ability if he is fast enough.

Who knew boxing was so simple?

Anyway, Bruce wins in Chess. Bruce absolutely destroys Superman in boxing inside of one round.

I'm sorry I forgot this was MMA (not boxing lol). The title threw me off.

Well in that case Bat has an even better chance to win than I previously thought by simply trying to grab Clark and make it a wrestling match. After all, when grappled up, perceptions are almost meaningless if you are physically weaker and less skilled.

But in a striking fight Clark has a much better chance to win.

Originally posted by h1a8
But in a striking fight Clark has a much better chance to win. No he doesn't. Not in a boxing match, not in a kickboxing match.

I think Superman is tough enough to at least last long enough to possibly beat Batman on the chessboard. I don't think Batman is putting Clark down and out in a single 3 minute round.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
I think Superman is tough enough to at least last long enough to possibly beat Batman on the chessboard. I don't think Batman is putting Clark down and out in a single 3 minute round. That's three minutes with an aggressive vastly more skilled/faster opponent with apparent never ending cardio.

He's also strong enough to submit beings like Hawkgirl, so... not looking good for Superman.

Superman gets speed blitzed

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Who knew boxing was so simple?

Anyway, Bruce wins in Chess. Bruce absolutely destroys Superman in boxing inside of one round. I like it when h1 pretends to be human.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
That's three minutes with an aggressive vastly more skilled/faster opponent with apparent never ending cardio.

He's also strong enough to submit beings like Hawkgirl, so... not looking good for Superman.

Superman gets speed blitzed

Superman, while depowered, on panel, has defeated opponents and situations arguably more formidable than Batman. This is unarmed combat. I'm not saying Superman wins, but I don't think it's a clean cut victory for Batman on both the chess and fighting fronts, though I think Batman's odds of winning are arguably better in the fight than they are on the chessboard, if only because of the pace at which the game of chess could possibly be played at.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
Superman, while depowered, on panel, has defeated opponents and situations arguably more formidable than Batman. This is unarmed combat. I'm not saying Superman wins, but I don't think it's a clean cut victory for Batman on both the chess and fighting fronts, though I think Batman's odds of winning are arguably better in the fight than they are on the chessboard, if only because of the pace at which the game of chess could possibly be played at. And Batman is put in Superman level situations all the time.

Even assuming they're equal in strength, Batman is faster, and many times over more skilled. You're putting Badr Hari (with Werdum sub skills) against Chris Leben and expecting a fight out of it.

Chess is a little different, but the fight rounds? No chance.

And Batman never actually performs at 'Superman level' in these 'Superman level' situations does he? No. Completely apples to oranges with how they approach the situations. On the other hand, Depowered Clark has fought Kobra h2h and done well. That's directly comparable.

Clark with super perceptions and comparable speed takes Bruce's envy ridden beetch ass the f*ck down.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
And Batman never actually performs at 'Superman level' in these 'Superman level' situations does he? No. Completely apples to oranges with how they approach the situations. On the other hand, Depowered Clark has fought Kobra h2h and done well. That's directly comparable.

Clark with super perceptions and comparable speed takes Bruce's envy ridden beetch ass the f*ck down. Not quite. Above Grodd/Grundy level.
Batman casually performs above his perceived level all the time, so I don't see how "Batman level" means anything.

So Superman beats a person Batman beats and that means he can beat Batman?
Why does he have comparable speed? Either way, Batman has stomped a Teen Titan team with Kid Flash on it, who has super perceptions, and greater speed than Batman. What an advantage that was...

If we ignore skill, I can certainly see how Superman can give Bruce a good fight, though.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
No he doesn't. Not in a boxing match, not in a kickboxing match.

It was a conditional statement (the condition was stated above it). If Batman is not more than 4x faster than Clark then he would lose at a striking match.

This is because Clark will see him in super slow motion and EASILY counter with pressure points when Batman attacks. Meaning, Bats will be open when he attacks.

Boxing is only complicated when it is in real time. It is simpler than kindergarten if it is in super slow motion. Dave Chappelle ought to tell you that.

Originally posted by h1a8
It was a conditional statement (the condition was stated above it). If Batman is not more than 4x faster than Clark then he would lose at a striking match.

This is because Clark will see him in super slow motion and EASILY counter with pressure points when Batman attacks. Meaning, Bats will be open when he attacks.

Boxing is only complicated when it is in real time. It is simpler than kindergarten if it is in super slow motion. Dave Chappelle ought to tell you that. ...

The one thread I thought you'd be semi rational in. Sometimes I have some pretty stupid thoughts.

Put it this way. Its like playing a game where you've entered a slow-mo cheat, but crucially, YOUR GAME CHARACTER IS THE SAME SPEED.

Sure, you the gamer can see your enemies in slow motion, and quickly enter the neccessary button presses. Doesn't mean that your onscreen character would move out of the way of any of their attacks.

I think Batman would win the boxing, and Superman the chess.

But can Superman beat Batman in chess before Batman beats him in the fight? The match goes in this order:

Chess: 3 minutes
Fight: 3 Minutes
Chess: 3 minutes
Fight: 3 Minutes
Chess: 3 minutes
Fight: 3 Minutes
Chess: 3 minutes
Fight: 3 Minutes
Chess: 3 minutes
Fight: 3 Minutes
Chess: 3 minutes
Fight: 3 Minutes

If Superman or Batman can survive two rounds of fighting either would have 9 minutes total to defeat the other in chess or simply rest. Are people saying that Batman drops Supes in the first 3 minute fighting round?

Batman would annihilate a depowered Superman in a hand to hand fight. How can anyone examine their history and come to any other conclusion?

Originally posted by MF DELPH
But can Superman beat Batman in chess before Batman beats him in the fight? The match goes in this order:

Chess: 3 minutes
Fight: 3 Minutes
Chess: 3 minutes
Fight: 3 Minutes
Chess: 3 minutes
Fight: 3 Minutes
Chess: 3 minutes
Fight: 3 Minutes
Chess: 3 minutes
Fight: 3 Minutes
Chess: 3 minutes
Fight: 3 Minutes

If Superman or Batman can survive two rounds of fighting either would have 9 minutes total to defeat the other in chess or simply rest. Are people saying that Batman drops Supes in the first 3 minute fighting round?

Yes. If Clark lasted more than like 2 pages against Bruce while depowered, I'd honestly be shocked.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
But can Superman beat Batman in chess before Batman beats him in the fight? The match goes in this order:

Chess: 3 minutes
Fight: 3 Minutes
Chess: 3 minutes
Fight: 3 Minutes
Chess: 3 minutes
Fight: 3 Minutes
Chess: 3 minutes
Fight: 3 Minutes
Chess: 3 minutes
Fight: 3 Minutes
Chess: 3 minutes
Fight: 3 Minutes

If Superman or Batman can survive two rounds of fighting either would have 9 minutes total to defeat the other in chess or simply rest. Are people saying that Batman drops Supes in the first 3 minute fighting round?

Yes.

Bump

Can Batman just sit on his hands for 3 minutes and then beat Clark's ass for the next three? Or make just make one move in three minutes? If he can then Bats takes this easily.

If they are actually playing chess as fast as they can in the 3 mins Supes probably takes it in the first round. But if for any reason they reach the first round of fighting then Bruce wins period.

Even if Clark makes it out of the first round of fighting alive, he would be to phucked up to think properly. Hard to play chess with two broken arms

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Batman would annihilate a depowered Superman in a hand to hand fight. How can anyone examine their history and come to any other conclusion?



Yes. If Clark lasted more than like 2 pages against Bruce while depowered, I'd honestly be shocked.

Because he's Superman, that literally seems to be their argument.

Kobra has beaten Batman FWIW. One thing is that Superman beat Kobra in Batman's body while he was in a weaker body than his kryptonian depowered body which was durable enough to survive re-entry without any aid and survived the firepits of apokolips while being depowered.

Batman beats superman in h2h though.

A chess match can go either way.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Kobra has beaten Batman FWIW. One thing is that Superman beat Kobra in Batman's body while he was in a weaker body than his kryptonian depowered body which was durable enough to survive re-entry without any aid and survived the firepits of apokolips while being depowered.

Batman beats superman in h2h though.

A chess match can go either way. Honestly this is Batman's fight to lose in all situations.

The only advantage Superman's super reaction speed grants him in the chess match is the ability to look over every possible move. It still comes down to him recognizing the moves or what Batman is trying to do.

FYI this something Batman generally does in a few seconds anyway. So even if Superman could take one second to figure out every possible move Batman is trying to make Batman will still do something similar in a similar time frame. That's just something Bruce does anyway and based on comicbook niches would probably out maneuver Superman anyways.

I think the fight has been pretty much covered in that Bruce still wins.

Heck Superman might end up being weaker in a fight with his Super reaction times. His mind is going to be processing things fast but in the end his body is ever going to get one of those signals and execute it at a time. Which means he is always going to have synch up what his body is doing with the thought he wants it to do in the time fram it's in.

Also once he commits to a move that's it he won't be able to make any large adjustments after that.

So what will probably end up happening is that thanks to Batman's Superior skill and quickness he will still out perform Superman. Also once again Batman is generally fast enough to quickly read body motion in real time thanks to his training that once Superman does something Batman will still have the reflexes and time to react like he normally does. Superman will end up spending an entire lifetime watching a move come at him that he won't be able to avoid.

Originally posted by Newjak
Honestly this is Batman's fight to lose in all situations.

The only advantage Superman's super reaction speed grants him in the chess match is the ability to look over every possible move. It still comes down to him recognizing the moves or what Batman is trying to do.

FYI this something Batman generally does in a few seconds anyway. So even if Superman could take one second to figure out every possible move Batman is trying to make Batman will still do something similar in a similar time frame. That's just something Bruce does anyway and based on comicbook niches would probably out maneuver Superman anyways.

I think the fight has been pretty much covered in that Bruce still wins.

Heck Superman might end up being weaker in a fight with his Super reaction times. His mind is going to be processing things fast but in the end his body is ever going to get one of those signals and execute it at a time. Which means he is always going to have synch up what his body is doing with the thought he wants it to do in the time fram it's in.

Also once he commits to a move that's it he won't be able to make any large adjustments after that.

So what will probably end up happening is that thanks to Batman's Superior skill and quickness he will still out perform Superman. Also once again Batman is generally fast enough to quickly read body motion in real time thanks to his training that once Superman does something Batman will still have the reflexes and time to react like he normally does. Superman will end up spending an entire lifetime watching a move come at him that he won't be able to avoid.
A likely scenario.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
So Batman isn't a good enough strategist to beat Superman in Chess in under 3 minutes and has to resort to a physical fight that he's not guaranteed to win? or how about chess has a finite number of moves and counter moves and that they are both smart enough/process fast enough to calculate every move beginning to end and that the winner will inevitably be the person with the first move advantage.

Or Batman doesn't make a move in 3 minutes of chess, then proceeds to beat the shit out of Clark in HTH

batman h2h.
superman chess.

Superman took a hell of a beating from Ali, and kept coming. He could probably last about one or two 3 minute rounds before staying down..

What happens if the chess matches end in a draw? That's basically what real life chess masters shoot for against the best chess engines...

I think Superman is being sold really short in this thread.

Originally posted by Zack Fair
batman h2h.
superman chess.



Anyway, Batman wins as he can just sit on his ass during the chess round and defeat Superman in the fight. 3 minutes should be enough time for Bats to win.