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Fight to the Death or KO...no BFR...who wins?

Mar-Vell wins.

He already showed he could deal with Nova Prime trying to blitz him, which he stopped with ease so speed wont be a problem.

lord

Mar-vell wins.

Mar-vell wins.

Runner, not seen anything that impressive from Lord Mar-vell.
Runner happily humiliated Thanos, that's quite a nice feat.

Runner had the space gem and didn't do any harm to Thanos at all

Originally posted by Nihilist
He already showed he could deal with Nova Prime trying to blitz him, which he stopped with ease so speed wont be a problem.
Nova Prima is as fast as Runner ?

Runner wins and without struggling imo.

Originally posted by Kid Kurdy
Nova Prima is as fast as Runner ? yeah at flight speed whiich he tried to blitz Marvell multiple times

Originally posted by Nihilist
yeah at flight speed whiich he tried to blitz Marvell multiple times
any chance you could provide scans to back that claim up?

The Runner without the Space Gem couldn't even beat Makkari or Buried Alien in a race. He had that Gem when he was blitzing Thanos.

Lord Mar-vell kills him.

Originally posted by zopzop
The Runner without the Space Gem couldn't even beat Makkari or Buried Alien in a race. He had that Gem when he was blitzing Thanos.

Lord Mar-vell kills him.
Ah, so this isn't The Runner who bested Surfer for speed, just a much much weaker version.

In that case, they're both pretty much unimpressive. The Runner humiliated Thanos, back when he had the space gem And Mar-Vell didn't do very much, as far as I recall... a few blasts and a decent moment of "team wrecker" type action (as has been done by many high heralds)...

I revise my opinion and say they draw.

Originally posted by janus77
any chance you could provide scans to back that claim up? go read Thanos Imperative it happened in that,90% of the forum have read the comic anyway

Runner had the space gem but he wasn't actually using it against Thanos.

The space gem allows him to basically warp himself to places faster than he can even think of it, but that wasn't what he was doing against Thanos.

He was simply using his base speed to blitz him.

edit: Nova Prime is fast as phuck in flight speed. This dude literally crosses lightyears in seconds. Which amounts to millions of times above lightspeed. Just giving an idea on that front. Not sure how that compares to the Runner exactly.

Nova IS one of the faster Heralds out there. As for the fight..just like it was stated above, Mar-vell really isn't that impressive imo. He shielded himself against Nova and snuck attack Magus and damaged a Surfer that really wasn't even attacking him. If that's all it takes to be above top tier, then you need to include this ranking for Thor, Superman, Savage Hulk, and the list goes on. Runner stomps.

Originally posted by zopzop
The Runner without the Space Gem couldn't even beat Makkari or Buried Alien in a race. He had that Gem when he was blitzing Thanos.

Lord Mar-vell kills him.

yeah that's true, but it's one of the few times i'll concede pis. in his earlier appearances he traversed galaxies easily. here's one example:

http://imageshack.us/f/98/defenders14316kx4.jpg/

and yet the speed of light is somehow a big deal in that quasar arc?? the whole thing was an homage to barry imo and as such it really doesn't ring true or consistently with other appearances. runner's also got a whole host of other powers including that likeability effect that worked on ss, tp and intangibility. w/o the gem he easily dodged ss's blasts so i don't see why he couldn't dodge mar-velll at LEAST as easily. he also beat the crap out of collector who has some decent feats. i'm not entirely sure who wins--mar-vell really doesn't have many feats--but runner is certainly not an easy win imo, and based on what i've seen of the 2, i'd go with runner.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Runner had the space gem but he wasn't actually using it against Thanos.

The space gem allows him to basically warp himself to places faster than he can even think of it, but that wasn't what he was doing against Thanos.

He was simply using his base speed to blitz him.

edit: Nova Prime is fast as phuck in flight speed. This dude literally crosses lightyears in seconds. Which amounts to millions of times above lightspeed. Just giving an idea on that front. Not sure how that compares to the Runner exactly. The Runner did use the space gem against Thanos but he didnt know he was doing it, that was moving the distance he was travelling to towards him...that why he was reaching his destination quicker than normal and as soon as he thought of it(these are all the Runners own words,backed up by Thanos instruments)

Originally posted by carver9
Nova IS one of the faster Heralds out there. As for the fight..just like it was stated above, Mar-vell really isn't that impressive imo. He shielded himself against Nova and snuck attack Magus and damaged a Surfer that really wasn't even attacking him. If that's all it takes to be above top tier, then you need to include this ranking for Thor, Superman, Savage Hulk, and the list goes on. Runner stomps. What a suprise Carver lowballin facepalm

Originally posted by leonidas
yeah that's true, but it's one of the few times i'll concede pis. in his earlier appearances he traversed galaxies easily. here's one example:

http://imageshack.us/f/98/defenders14316kx4.jpg/

and yet the speed of light is somehow a big deal in that quasar arc?? the whole thing was an homage to barry imo and as such it really doesn't ring true or consistently with other appearances.

Wasn't this before he lost his Space Gem to Thanos? The cosmic race in the Quasar issue took place after he lost the Space Gem.




Again wasn't the SS encounter prior to losing the Space Gem to Thanos? His post Thanos Quest appearances are few and rather pathetic honestly.

Originally posted by zopzop


Wasn't this before he lost his Space Gem to Thanos? The cosmic race in the Quasar issue took place after he lost the Space Gem.




Again wasn't the SS encounter prior to losing the Space Gem to Thanos? His post Thanos Quest appearances are few and rather pathetic honestly.

they have been pathetic, i agree. but are you suggesting that we should assume retroactively that runner had the gem in all those earlier appearances?

i think i'd disagree with that idea. he wore the gem on his forehead. he never appeared to have it early in his career.

For what its worth, even if we assume Nova is as fast as the Runner, terrain could play a role in this battle. When Nova engaged Mar-vell at super speed it was in a relatively closed space (inside a ship) and it looked like Mar-vell was able to enclose him in some kind of containment field to stop the blitz and force Nova to face him head up in close quarters. The Runner would be fighting in an fairly open environment with the added benefit of basic knowledge, which should favor him imo.

Just my two cents.

http://www.imagebam.com/image/1a20ef97181836
http://www.imagebam.com/image/a2381497181846

Going with Lord Mar-vell, but Runner puts up a fight.

Originally posted by leonidas
but are you suggesting that we should assume retroactively that runner had the gem in all those earlier appearances?

i think i'd disagree with that idea. he wore the gem on his forehead. he never appeared to have it early in his career.

The chronology goes something like this :

Elders attack Galactus with 6 soul gems set up with six planets orbiting a dead sun. Nova destroys the sun, they get sucked into a black hole. They later emerge from the black hole and are each given back their gems (apparently the Runner got the Space Gem). This was about Dec 1988.

Then Thanos comes along and takes the Gem from Runner (this was about Oct 1990).

So he had the Gem in any of his appearances from 1988 to 1990.

The confrontation with the Surfer appears to be before he got his hands on the Space Gem, but then again, he went one on one vs the Surfer in a direct confrontation. No fancy footwork really.

What year/issue did the Moondragon scan come from?

EDIT:

It appears that the Moondragon/Runner encounter was from Defenders 143 in 1985. He wouldn't have the Space Gem yet.

It appears he was toned down majorly after his rescue by Order/Chaos in Silver Surfer 17 (November 1988). Because his appearances from that point on were sad.

Originally posted by carver9
Nova IS one of the faster Heralds out there. As for the fight..just like it was stated above, Mar-vell really isn't that impressive imo. He shielded himself against Nova and snuck attack Magus and damaged a Surfer that really wasn't even attacking him. If that's all it takes to be above top tier, then you need to include this ranking for Thor, Superman, Savage Hulk, and the list goes on. Runner stomps. Based on what ?

that's from an early defenders issue. '84 or '85. so no gem. this fight depends entirely upon how you choose to view runner. the earlier versions of the elders (champion, runner, even grandmaster to some degree though he's had some good showings more recently as well) seemed to portray the elders more powerfully. like i said, i tend to throw out that quasar bs. doing that, runner has been shown to be pretty powerful. i'd still take him over the even less well-defined mar-vell.

Originally posted by leonidas
that's from an early defenders issue. '84 or '85. so no gem. this fight depends entirely upon how you choose to view runner. the earlier versions of the elders (champion, runner, even grandmaster to some degree though he's had some good showings more recently as well) seemed to portray the elders more powerfully. like i said, i tend to throw out that quasar bs. doing that, runner has been shown to be pretty powerful. i'd still take him over the even less well-defined mar-vell.

It seems the Order/Chaos rescue in SS 17 > Thanos Quest arc was the end of the Elders as serious powers. Champion began jobbing like a loser and the Runner was never the same again.

Originally posted by zopzop


Wasn't this before he lost his Space Gem to Thanos? that was from his first appearance ever

The Runner.

the runner doesn't possess the power of death to stop lord marv

Mar-Vell.
And IMO it's not that close.

i think runner would win with space gem

Runner regardless he is one of the most powerful Elders under Ego and Grandmaster. The Runner can amp through the power primordial

Marvell wins , through various ways

Originally posted by zopzop


Wasn't this before he lost his Space Gem to Thanos? The cosmic race in the Quasar issue took place after he lost the Space Gem.




Again wasn't the SS encounter prior to losing the Space Gem to Thanos? His post Thanos Quest appearances are few and rather pathetic honestly. Imagine your shame when that was written by the same person who is the only person who seemingly wrote up your precious Starbrand (though it did nothing in that series) past what Hickman did.

Anyway, I believe Runner said he was holding back in that race past Zop, and he could have tapped into more. As well as Mak training pretty much every issue since the first race until he finally found the secret of speed.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Imagine your shame when that was written by the same person who is the only person who seemingly wrote up your precious Starbrand (though it did nothing in that series) past what Hickman did.
Obviously the Living Tribunal didn't see it your way otherwise he wouldn't have been crapping his pants as Erishkigal was toying with Master Order and Lord Chaos right up in his face and he couldn't stop her. Then she dared him to do something and he was the one that backed down and proposed they fight through proxies.

Lest you think that was an isolated occurrence, he had his chance at the end of Starblast to re-challenge the Starbrand and he backed down (he ordered Stranger to teleport the New Universe Earth back to it's multiverse but then Stranger warned him that wasn't wise because it would unleash a "hideously powerful being" into 616 multiverse and the LT rescinded his demand).

The LT himself said the Starbrand was potential peer to the abstracts. Keep in mind Erishkigal had the damn thing for LESS than a day.

If you believe Hickman's Starbrand is capable of that, I don't know what to tell you.



I don't think he was though. I never saw it mentioned on panel. The only rules of the race were that every few (hundred/thousand/forgot which) yards your feet HAD to have touched the ground otherwise you'd be disqualified from the race.

Originally posted by zopzop

Obviously the Living Tribunal didn't see it your way otherwise he wouldn't have been crapping his pants as Erishkigal was toying with Master Order and Lord Chaos right up in his face and he couldn't stop her. Then she dared him to do something and he was the one that backed down and proposed they fight through proxies.

Lest you think that was an isolated occurrence, he had his chance at the end of Starblast to re-challenge the Starbrand and he backed down (he ordered Stranger to teleport the New Universe Earth back to it's multiverse but then Stranger warned him that wasn't wise because it would unleash a "hideously powerful being" into 616 multiverse and the LT rescinded his demand).

The LT himself said the Starbrand was potential peer to the abstracts. Keep in mind Erishkigal had the damn thing for LESS than a day.

If you believe Hickman's Starbrand is capable of that, I don't know what to tell you.



I don't think he was though. I never saw it mentioned on panel. The only rules of the race were that every few (hundred/thousand/forgot which) yards your feet HAD to have touched the ground otherwise you'd be disqualified from the race. LT would have wiped the floor with her.

Because he didn't want anything from that universe interacting with the normal universe. That's like saying he was scared of the planet. LT was all about keeping the balance of power in those issues. He wouldn't even let Quasar take his quantum bands to the world with him because it would upset the balance of power in the universe.

Anyway, Gruen's Starbrand is largely featless. And it is the only Starbrand supposedly written above Hickman's... and you have a problem with Grun's Runner, but favor his depiction of Starbrand over anything else (even the original). It's rather delicious.

Basically, every other Starbrand except Grun's is "planetary" in scope. But you choose this as the favorable depiction.

He seemed pretty confident he could beat Mak:
http://i44.tinypic.com/2h7duev.jpg

Along with how non chalant he was in the race, and Mak traveling at light speed passing him... but then again, that might just be the hack writing from a guy who wrote Starbrand up. Right?

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
LT would have wiped the floor with her.
Yeah, that's why he didn't dare attack her directly and suggested they fight through proxies.


If that was the case, then why didn't he destroy the Starbrand when Erishkigal lost their bet and had to hand it over to him? He faked the funk like he was going to get rid of it but then turns around and secretly gives it back to Kayla! LOL.




Gruenwald's Starbrand has more and more impressive feats than Hickman's Starbrand just for the simple reason that Gruenwald's Brand was a prominent feature of the Quasar series, even having it's own event : Starblast.

I don't have a problem with Gruenwald's Runner seeing as how prior to this, Runner had like only ONE fight. That's it. So that could have been a high showing. Lord knows all subsequent appearances were lackluster.

Kind of like Champion. He had one or two good showings then it was all down hill from there.


Because they feared cutting loose with the power and restrained themselves. The guy that passed it on to Quasar said as much and before he gave it over he made sure Quasar was responsible enough to wield the power.


He THOUGHT he could but they never got a chance to rematch. Even Grandmaster was ready to choose Makkari as his new champion and abandoned the Runner.

Originally posted by zopzop

Yeah, that's why he didn't dare attack her directly and suggested they fight through proxies.


If that was the case, then why didn't he destroy the Starbrand when Erishkigal lost their bet and had to hand it over to him? He faked the funk like he was going to get rid of it but then turns around and secretly gives it back to Kayla! LOL.




Gruenwald's Starbrand has more and more impressive feats than Hickman's Starbrand just for the simple reason that Gruenwald's Brand was a prominent feature of the Quasar series, even having it's own event : Starblast.

I don't have a problem with Gruenwald's Runner seeing as how prior to this, Runner had like only ONE fight. That's it. So that could have been a high showing. Lord knows all subsequent appearances were lackluster.

Kind of like Champion. He had one or two good showings then it was all down hill from there.


Because they feared cutting loose with the power and restrained themselves. The guy that passed it on to Quasar said as much and before he gave it over he made sure Quasar was responsible enough to wield the power.


He THOUGHT he could but they never got a chance to rematch. Even Grandmaster was ready to choose Makkari as his new champion and abandoned the Runner. Or why she chose to kill herself instead of surrendering.

Because she wouldn't use it, and it all got sealed up away from 616. All he had to do was seal it in a shield
Although, the best explanation would be Gruen being a hack.

Assuming Gruen's is the most impressive, going completely by that notion... that doesn't help the notion of Gruen not writing it way up that goes against every pre and post showing from then on. But instead, this is the only real showing of the Starbrand you go by.

No Runner didn't. And Runner's first showing had him crossing galaxies. Under Gruen he couldn't even go light speed apparently.
I see you realize the problem here though. You have to defend both instances otherwise it makes you seem like a hypocrite.

And Runner has only had like a couple appearances since Thanos Quest anyway. The Quasar issues, and a couple panels of standing around in the Ronan tie in for Annihilation. He sure went downhill all right...

He said this under Gruenwald who wrote up the Starbrand. In the meantime the first Starbrand was like city/asteroid level, and Ellis/Hickman is planetary.

Why would he think he could beat him if he wasn't holding back? Running isn't a fight. He can't strategize it.
But then again, a guy who previously easily crosses galaxies can't even travel light speed, so maybe that was his max speed and every other appearance was wrong. If we only accept one depiction like we do with Starbrand, then why wouldn't we accept one depiction of Runner? That one issue involving Runner is the absolute depiction

Although accepting Runner only being able to travel light speed if even raises all sorts of problems on its own aside from past zop seeming to have problems with it.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Or why she chose to kill herself instead of surrendering.
Why did Grandmaster surrender Death's power back to her after he lost the bet with Hawkeye when he didn't have to seeing as how he had her powerless and had already beaten all the other Avengers and Hawkeye was in no position to do anything to him?


A) But Kayla did use it!

B) Kayla didn't have the Starbrand when the LT sealed up that world, just the fraction of it all former users have! The Starbrand was back in the New Universe multiverse with Skeletron!


Gruenwald wrote the Starbrand in almost as many issues as the original Starbrand series! Also even in the original Starbrand series it was the most powerful object in the entire New Universe.


Uhm he could go faster than light. Just like Makkari could :
http://s7.postimg.org/fpkam773r/FTL.jpg


My point was he did nothing of consequence after the Thanos Quest series. He actually had his chance to shine when the A-wave was about to overrun that world yet he did nothing and was just a spectator.


The original Starbrand was the most powerful object/thing in the entire New Universe and it was responsible for the White Event that gave that universes superhumans their powers.

Hickmans' Starbrand is nothing more than a creation of the Builders (these guys can't even handle their own space ships) and just one of the many things they made and is not responsible for the White Event.


Again, Gruenwald never said Runner was limited to light speed, just that the fastest you can go in the physical universe is limited by the speed of light. Last time I checked this was a fact.

Originally posted by zopzop

Why did Grandmaster surrender Death's power back to her after he lost the bet with Hawkeye when he didn't have to seeing as how he had her powerless and had already beaten all the other Avengers and Hawkeye was in no position to do anything to him?


A) But Kayla did use it!

B) Kayla didn't have the Starbrand when the LT sealed up that world, just the fraction of it all former users have! The Starbrand was back in the New Universe multiverse with Skeletron!


Gruenwald wrote the Starbrand in almost as many issues as the original Starbrand series! Also even in the original Starbrand series it was the most powerful object in the entire New Universe.


Uhm he could go faster than light. Just like Makkari could :
http://s7.postimg.org/fpkam773r/FTL.jpg


My point was he did nothing of consequence after the Thanos Quest series. He actually had his chance to shine when the A-wave was about to overrun that world yet he did nothing and was just a spectator.


The original Starbrand was the most powerful object/thing in the entire New Universe and it was responsible for the White Event that gave that universes superhumans their powers.

Hickmans' Starbrand is nothing more than a creation of the Builders (these guys can't even handle their own space ships) and just one of the many things they made and is not responsible for the White Event.


Again, Gruenwald never said Runner was limited to light speed, just that the fastest you can go in the physical universe is limited by the speed of light. Last time I checked this was a fact. Because Grandmaster's whole character is wagering. Which isn't in Eresh's character. And all she accomplished was "killing" herself while still giving up the powers. Hell, the fact that she tried to get rid of the power by killing herself proves she doesn't abide by her wagers. Which makes the example faulty.
If you honestly think the Starbrand could beat LT then you must have lost your mind. Quasar used all its power up to breach into 616, and it had to regenerate back even in the same series.

Yeah, to accidentally defend herself, fly, and grow her hair out.

So the Starbrand was sealed away from 616.
The only explanation for LT giving it to Kayla was he thought she wouldn't use it. Though it still makes no sense. All he had to do was seal it in a shield.
Hack writing though.

And the Hickman/Ellis Starbrand has appeared in almost as many issues as well. Though the Ellis/Hickman Starbrand is more grounded like the original
Iron Man would have been the most powerful being in that universe had the Starbrand not existed. How impressive.

Nope, he was only approaching light speed in your scan, but here is Mak becoming light:
http://i43.tinypic.com/110ly5x.jpg

According to Gruenwald light was the absolute speed. Which we know is absolutely false in Marvel. More examples of hack writing, right?

Because he only appeared in 3 comics since then. Him not doing anything isn't evidence of him going downhill. That's too stupid to even think can be true.

The White Event was the Starbrand blowing up in a ball of energy giving a bunch of people minor powers. That doesn't prove it's even close to abstract level. Especially the whole blowing up part.
Even when Gruenwald was allowed to tag along like a sidekick with John Bryne, the Starbrand blowing up destructively only caused a 50 mile diameter sphere of destruction.
It was only when Gruenwald got a hold of Starbrand exclusively, that its previous grounded-ness got shit on with a massive amount of hyperbole. But sure, let's take Gruenwald's take exclusively because it was obviously the most true take... even over Shooter's. More power = more true.

Nope. It only said that in that higher dimension that mass doesn't come with approaching light speed.
And Gladiator was traveling 100 times the speed of light on Reed's instruments. Among other examples.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Because Grandmaster's whole character is wagering. Which isn't in Eresh's character. And all she accomplished was "killing" herself while still giving up the powers. Hell, the fact that she tried to get rid of the power by killing herself proves she doesn't abide by her wagers. Which makes the example faulty.
If you honestly think the Starbrand could beat LT then you must have lost your mind. Quasar used all its power up to breach into 616, and it had to regenerate back even in the same series.
The very fact that that LT was the one that suggested they fight through proxies says it all. She dared him to attack and he did nothing. She toyed with Master Order and Lord Chaos in his presence and he did nothing. Remember what hapepened when Warlock with the IG blasted the Cosmic Court? The LT undid it with a snap of his fingers. Why didn't he snap his fingers and undo the damage Erishkigal was doing to the balance by phucking with Order and Chaos. All he did was demand she stop or he'd enlist the mighty of the multiverse to oppose her (another hint by the writer as to the power of the Starbrand) and she told him to go for it. He didn't.

And Quasar never burnt out it's power, he only thought he did because once he got into 616 reality he accidentally transferred it to Kayla. He only had a miniscule fraction (a millionth) of it's power (that allowed him to beat a imposter wielding the Q-bands, reconstruct himself after being NULLIFIED, reconstruct himself after evil Marvel Boy destroyed his spirit body, and force the Possessor out of his body).

http://s2.postimg.org/gh1gg7uh1/never_burnt_out.jpg http://s21.postimg.org/7sbsa4omr/never.jpg


And almost kill Kismet but yeah. So actually was USING the power in 616 reality (contaminating 616 reality right?) and the LT was NOWHERE to be found until the the vast majority of it was out of 616's multiverse. How convenient.


It was in a mutliverse completely SEPARATE from 616s. They didn't want to put the New Universe world back there because Skeletron with the Starbrand would find his way back to 616 multiverse. The LT chickened out and decided it was better to seal off the planet than send it back.


Except you'd be wrong. The LT stated the Starbrand, that was in the hands of a person that had it for LESS than a day, was a potential peer to the abstracts. Hickman's Starbrand is BARELY scratching high herald/low trans level.


No, it said right there on panel he was in a higher dimension where the speed of light isn't an absolute limit. There's examples of beings like the Surfer having to jump into hyperspace to go faster than light speed (unless they teleport).


Why didn't he do anything vs the A-wave then? There was his chance. The writers just had him there as a useless spectator.


The Starbrand was the most powerful object from a multiverse so alien to 616's that it wasn't possible to compare it powerwise to anything from 616. Gruenwald, who wrote it for almost as long (if not longer, I have to check) than Shooter, brung it to 616 reality and stated via the LT that it was at least a potential peer to 616's abstracts in power.


I can give you examples of Surfer jumping into hyperspace to overcome the speed of light travel limitation too. At least Gruenwald has RL physics backing him on the universal speed limit.

Originally posted by zopzop

The very fact that that LT was the one that suggested they fight through proxies says it all. She dared him to attack and he did nothing. She toyed with Master Order and Lord Chaos in his presence and he did nothing. Remember what hapepened when Warlock with the IG blasted the Cosmic Court? The LT undid it with a snap of his fingers. Why didn't he snap his fingers and undo the damage Erishkigal was doing to the balance by phucking with Order and Chaos. All he did was demand she stop or he'd enlist the mighty of the multiverse to oppose her (another hint by the writer as to the power of the Starbrand) and she told him to go for it. He didn't.

And Quasar never burnt out it's power, he only thought he did because once he got into 616 reality he accidentally transferred it to Kayla. He only had a miniscule fraction (a millionth) of it's power (that allowed him to beat a imposter wielding the Q-bands, reconstruct himself after being NULLIFIED, reconstruct himself after evil Marvel Boy destroyed his spirit body, and force the Possessor out of his body).

http://s2.postimg.org/gh1gg7uh1/never_burnt_out.jpg http://s21.postimg.org/7sbsa4omr/never.jpg


And almost kill Kismet but yeah. So actually was USING the power in 616 reality (contaminating 616 reality right?) and the LT was NOWHERE to be found until the the vast majority of it was out of 616's multiverse. How convenient.


It was in a mutliverse completely SEPARATE from 616s. They didn't want to put the New Universe world back there because Skeletron with the Starbrand would find his way back to 616 multiverse. The LT chickened out and decided it was better to seal off the planet than send it back.


Except you'd be wrong. The LT stated the Starbrand, that was in the hands of a person that had it for LESS than a day, was a potential peer to the abstracts. Hickman's Starbrand is BARELY scratching high herald/low trans level.


No, it said right there on panel he was in a higher dimension where the speed of light isn't an absolute limit. There's examples of beings like the Surfer having to jump into hyperspace to go faster than light speed (unless they teleport).


Why didn't he do anything vs the A-wave then? There was his chance. The writers just had him there as a useless spectator.


The Starbrand was the most powerful object from a multiverse so alien to 616's that it wasn't possible to compare it powerwise to anything from 616. Gruenwald, who wrote it for almost as long (if not longer, I have to check) than Shooter, brung it to 616 reality and stated via the LT that it was at least a potential peer to 616's abstracts in power.


I can give you examples of Surfer jumping into hyperspace to overcome the speed of light travel limitation too. At least Gruenwald has RL physics backing him on the universal speed limit. Which is irrelevant. LT doesn't just attack people.
And who's to say he wouldn't have? When Warlock did it, he actually did damage to everyone in a "court hearing". Starbrand was only making Chaos stronger which was reversible without LT healing the damage.
You're basing Gruenwald's Starbrand being more powerful than LT based on him not fighting it. And again, as I said before, this does nothing to go against the notion that Gruenwald's Starbrand would be an outlier in all of Starbrand's history.

Like I said, it had to regenerate back. But, if you're saying it was at full power when he gave it to Kayla, then Gruenwald wrote a full powered Starbrand getting near disintegrated by alien ships:
http://i39.tinypic.com/2dj11h.jpg
http://i39.tinypic.com/2yyzd6d.jpg

Pick your poison Zop. Either Gruenwald is a hack for having a full powered Starbrand getting disintegrated by ships, or the Starbrand pretty much burnt itself out breaching the barriers and was regenerating to full power. I'm obviously fine with either.

Also, Quasar had the time to fly to Florida (which in Gruenwald speed, is very far away) and he apparently couldn't feel the power, nor feel the power leaving him when he gave it to Kayla. Which backs up it being "burnt out" at the time, and regenerated in Kayla.


She almost killed Kismet before LT gave it back to her. I was only going by what she did afterwards. But yes, I know, how convenient.
Lucky for the Starbrand that Gruenwald is a hack who didn't stop Kayla from growing her hair.
You keep making points that don't exactly deviate from Gruenwald being hack... you realize this, don't you? This is the guy who you only use for definitive Starbrand and apparently Runner appearances.


So... you're saying it was sealed off from 616 then?
Like I said, LT can seal entire multiverses off from the Starbrand. If Gruenwald wasn't a hack, he would have just had LT seal the Starbrand within its own shield.
Yes, LT chickened out from a planet full of maybe herald level powers... this is your argument. LT could have disintegrated the world, but he treated it the same he did the New Universe. This isn't evidence of chicken-ness.


Why do you keep bringing up the hyperbole of Gruenwald's Starbrand? You realize my whole point is that Gruenwald's Starbrand was written up completely?
And what would I be wrong about? Iron Man being the most powerful being in Shooter's universe had the Starbrand not been there? Well, the only way to disprove this would be naturally to use hyperbole under Gruenwald!
And I just said Hickman/Ellis Starbrand was more grounded like the original... so saying he's barely scratching trans doesn't go against anything.


It said the speed of light held no sway, and then it went on to cite approaching it didn't give an increase in mass. It never said it wasn't the absolute limit. And when Mak actually went lightspeed, he stayed that way until Grandmaster changed him, because he was going too fast.
Surfer jumps to hyperspace to travel around the universe. Not to go above the speed of light. Hell, Surfer on panel told Genis they were about to go warp speed, and then they entered hyperspace. Surfer traveled that light year in seconds is a fancy example for this too. Or Reed watching him travel light years in a seconds works too. It's not to travel above light speed.


Because he didn't do anything against the A-Wave. That's not an example of a character being written down or going downhill. That's an example of a character not being written to do anything.
Fact of the matter is you're saying he went downhill based on one single comic. But then you're defending it by saying it was above lightspeed (which even if it was, it's not crossing galaxies in a night).
Which leaves us at, if his only feat since Thanos Quest is in your opinion traveling the fastest you can in the physical universe, then why are you using it as a low feat?


Good way of saying that you choose to ignore the original Starbrand blowing up with destructive power only leveling the city of Pittsburgh. You want to see current Starbrand raise his hand and blow up something pretty big?
Gruenwald brought it the main Marvel Multiverse and completely shit on its grounded level of power with pure hyperbole.


Don't tell me, do it.
But even so, we know people can travel faster than light in Marvel, and that's a fact. But we know for a fact that Gruenwald wrote Runner being limited to lightspeed, while he's previously crossed galaxies in short amounts of time.
But then again, Gruenwald doesn't care about the characters he writes. He just likes to shit on them, and make up his own level. And this is the guy who you choose to use as the definite version of characters.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Which is irrelevant. LT doesn't just attack people.
And who's to say he wouldn't have? When Warlock did it, he actually did damage to everyone in a "court hearing". Starbrand was only making Chaos stronger which was reversible without LT healing the damage.
You're basing Gruenwald's Starbrand being more powerful than LT based on him not fighting it. And again, as I said before, this does nothing to go against the notion that Gruenwald's Starbrand would be an outlier in all of Starbrand's history.
I never said the Starbrand was more powerful than the LT. Just powerful enough to give him fits and FAR FAR more powerful than Hickman's Failbrand. This is shown on panel and backed up by Handbook entries (yes http://www.marvunapp.com is officially recognized by Marvel) :
http://s21.postimg.org/7ru3jyn03/official.jpg




It was never burnt out, it stated so on panel AND backed up in Handbook entries.

Regarding Kayla being incinerated and regrowing, it was a direct homage to the very first Starbrand when he was a noob discovering his powers and being killed (exactly like Kayla):
http://s22.postimg.org/r5r98jzsd/starbd12.jpg
That's what good writers do. It's called "foreshadowing" giving you a hint of what was the source of her powers before the big reveal.




I'm merely pointing out the LT was full of sh|t. She was running around "contaminating" the multiverse with the FULL Starbrand and he never showed his fact to stop her.

Only after Skeletron was trapped in the New Universe Multiverse with the Full Starbrand, barring the sliver that's left over to former users, did he show up and demand the world be sealed off from 616 reality (and even then that was his second option because Stranger warned him about opening up a gate to the New Universe and unleashing Skeletron).

Skeletron was "trapped" in the New Universe in the sense that he couldn't find his way back to 616 multiverse from the New Universe Multiverse. The Starbrand does not grant omniscience.


It wasn't just Gruenwald's "hyperbole".

It was confirmed in the Handbook entries and by later writers that Eriskigal had infinite power with the Starbrand :
http://s9.postimg.org/o3lbdei9n/infinite.jpg http://s13.postimg.org/oks4aihw3/infinite2.jpg



Gruenwald NEVER said Runner couldn't move at FTL speeds, just that the speed of light was the speed limit without doing something extra like jumping into hyperspace. It's not like this is an alien concept, it's been stated before :
http://s21.postimg.org/gntuqx33n/hyperspace.jpg http://s21.postimg.org/sa8wuxk37/hyperspace2.jpg http://s21.postimg.org/ie7tvaeb7/hyperspace3.png

Also keep in mind it was a foot race with specific rules (one of which was your feet must touch the ground every few hundred or thousand yards).

Fact is, it's Hickman that's the hack. It's his idiocy that's sh|t all over Marvel continuity for the sake of his garbage story.

The Builders, guys that use ships to destroy worlds and can't even survive a direct confrontation with said ships should they be turned against them, put the phucking LT into a coma. FAIL.

The Kree and the other galactic races are supposedly no match for these "planet busting" ships yet the Kree's weapons are so powerful they have a GALAXY busting bomb in their phucking arsenal. FAIL.

Earth is in mortal danger from these "planet busters" yet there's a guy on team whose daddy is a confirmed GALAXY buster and his mom is an Elder God. FAIL.

Bonus Hickman stupidity :
Celestials withstanding a UN blast and random gun in Reed's closet >>>>>>>>>>>>>UN.

I would love to see zop's expression if the current Starbrand ends up being revealed as the one who KO'd the LT on that moon.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
I would love to see zop's expression if the current Starbrand ends up being revealed as the one who KO'd the LT on that moon.
TGK, my friend, that would make things WORSE not better.

A planet buster putting the LT into a coma is the last straw. Even Hickman wouldn't be that moronic (I hope).

At least this way he can say their ENTIRE armada of "planet busting" ships/tech laid the LT's @$$ out (as stupid as that would be it's still less stupid than a single planet buster KOing the LT).

When did "planet busting" ships put LT into coma? Scans please.

Runner with ease. Almost spite.

Originally posted by abhilegend
When did "planet busting" ships put LT into coma? Scans please.
We're talking about a hypothetical future revelation regarding that scene.

Originally posted by zopzop

I never said the Starbrand was more powerful than the LT. Just powerful enough to give him fits and FAR FAR more powerful than Hickman's Failbrand. This is shown on panel and backed up by Handbook entries (yes http://www.marvunapp.com is officially recognized by Marvel) :
http://s21.postimg.org/7ru3jyn03/official.jpg Then why are you acting like LT was terrified of it, and he would have lost?
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
LT would have wiped the floor with her. Originally posted by zopzop

Yeah, that's why he didn't dare attack her directly and suggested they fight through proxies.


Fact is, the Starbrand did absolutely nothing at all, ever in any incarnation to put it on LT's level. Not even with hyperbole which is apparently all we base it on.
LT not fighting something doesn't mean he's scared. He isn't Luke Cage who punches first and then punches second and then asks punches later. He's a thinker, he's a sense of reason. He'd rather talk something out of it before obliterating them.

Originally posted by zopzop


It was never burnt out, it stated so on panel AND backed up in Handbook entries.

Regarding Kayla being incinerated and regrowing, it was a direct homage to the very first Starbrand when he was a noob discovering his powers and being killed (exactly like Kayla):
http://s22.postimg.org/r5r98jzsd/starbd12.jpg
That's what good writers do. It's called "foreshadowing" giving you a hint of what was the source of her powers before the big reveal. Well, if it wasn't burnt out then the full power Starbrand under HyperboleWald got disinitegrated by alien ships. What a peer to the abstracts that is. That in no way proves that anything about its power was hyperbole!

Does that help your case? I'm stating that the current Starbrand is more in line with the original. Using Gruenwald ripping off Shooter Starbrand doesn't help your case.

ALTHOUGH, I find it super cute and happening fun that you have no issues with noob Shooter Brand and noob HyperboleBrand getting destroyed by random shit. Yet you raise all sorts of hell when a noob Starbrand gets beaten by ****ing Hulk, Thor, and Hyperion.
Basically, you'd only be happy if HickmanBrand got disintegrated by a random alien ship instead, is what you're saying?

Totes cute Zop. Your hypocrisy knows no bounds.


Originally posted by zopzop

I'm merely pointing out the LT was full of sh|t. She was running around "contaminating" the multiverse with the FULL Starbrand and he never showed his fact to stop her.

Only after Skeletron was trapped in the New Universe Multiverse with the Full Starbrand, barring the sliver that's left over to former users, did he show up and demand the world be sealed off from 616 reality (and even then that was his second option because Stranger warned him about opening up a gate to the New Universe and unleashing Skeletron).

Skeletron was "trapped" in the New Universe in the sense that he couldn't find his way back to 616 multiverse from the New Universe Multiverse. The Starbrand does not grant omniscience. Because Gruenwald is a hack. Gruenwald forgot he wrote LT having a problem with the Starbrand, and then whenever he remembered it again, the Starbrand was swiftly dealt with. The guy made LT give the power back to somebody within the Marvel multiverse.
You either accept that LT figured she wasn't going to "contaminate" everything, as she was the safest vessel. Or Gruenwald is Hacky Mchackerson: The Hackening

He's the one who sealed it in the first place.
You keep twisting that conversation around like LT was scared. It went something like this:
"This world should be sealed, why would you bring it here you shit head?"
"I can't place it back in its natural universe because I'm Stranger."
"I'm sealing this world."
http://i42.tinypic.com/hx7mnt.jpg
http://i39.tinypic.com/24awpb6.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/155nhms.jpg


But yes, it makes sense for LT to make a ruling, and then go back, open up the universe and punch out the entity. Because I forgot, LT is Luke Cage again. He should have hit that jive mother right in the face.
LT wouldn't even let Quasar leave the planet had he went there after it was sealed. Not because he was terrified, but because shit was going down and it wasn't natural. He treated it in the exact same way, hell he was even worried about the Quantum Bands being left on the planet because it would upset the balance. I'm sure we could twist this into some way for the LT being scared of the Quantum Bands. A universe without Quantum Bands upsets the balance. Just like a universe with the Starbrand upsets the balance.

http://i42.tinypic.com/13z0pg.jpg

For ****'s sake, LT tried to beat up Thanos with the HOTU even after he toyed with Eternity. You think he's scared of Starbrand?

Originally posted by zopzop

It wasn't just Gruenwald's "hyperbole".

It was confirmed in the Handbook entries and by later writers that Eriskigal had infinite power with the Starbrand :
http://s9.postimg.org/o3lbdei9n/infinite.jpg http://s13.postimg.org/oks4aihw3/infinite2.jpg Do you not understand what hyperbole means?

It means holy shit, it didn't actually do anything but by golly let's talk about how powerful it was!

Posting more hyperbole doesn't farther the matter. And quite frankly I'm sure I could find the same thing being referenced to Silver Surfer.

Originally posted by zopzop
Gruenwald NEVER said Runner couldn't move at FTL speeds, just that the speed of light was the speed limit without doing something extra like jumping into hyperspace. It's not like this is an alien concept, it's been stated before :
http://s21.postimg.org/gntuqx33n/hyperspace.jpg http://s21.postimg.org/sa8wuxk37/hyperspace2.jpg http://s21.postimg.org/ie7tvaeb7/hyperspace3.png

Also keep in mind it was a foot race with specific rules (one of which was your feet must touch the ground every few hundred or thousand yards). But here's the problem, you said Runner couldn't move at those speeds, and Runner has never entered hyperspace to my knowledge, and he even made note of his teleporting with the Space Gem. Unless you think Runner showed Moondragon all the cool shit in the universe in ****ing hyperspace.

Anyway, one panel does not back up Gruenwald's case. Hell, Surfer's first appearance has him riding a super nova across countless light years in the time it takes for Reed to belittle Susan. Reed has watched Surfer travel light years. The infamous Infinity Gauntlet scene. That's without hyperspace. Which has been used primarily to travel across the universe in comics, not just to go faster than light.
Then we have Gladiator traveling on panel 100 times the speed of light. Oh and this:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11/111099/2724894-silver_surfer_speed_blitzes_faster_than_light.jpg


But where are my manners, here's you saying Runner can't travel faster than light:
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Anyway, I believe Runner said he was holding back in that race past Zop, and he could have tapped into more. As well as Mak training pretty much every issue since the first race until he finally found the secret of speed. Originally posted by zopzop
I don't think he was though. I never saw it mentioned on panel. The only rules of the race were that every few (hundred/thousand/forgot which) yards your feet HAD to have touched the ground otherwise you'd be disqualified from the race. Originally posted by zopzop
He THOUGHT he could but they never got a chance to rematch. Even Grandmaster was ready to choose Makkari as his new champion and abandoned the Runner.

http://i43.tinypic.com/110ly5x.jpg

Which means you don't think Runner was holding back, and we see him get mollywhopped once Mak hits lightspeed. Runner not holding back according to you isn't lightspeed. But apparently he can travel faster than light only in hyperspace... although that begs the question of why that's relevant in forum threads. And also I believe I asked this before, but if that's the absolute limit you can go in physical space, then why are you using this as a low showing for Runner?

But for the sake of eating my butt zop, let's take a look at Runner's first appearance where he was walking on the skin of galaxies, traveling way away from Titan, etc without entering hyperspace:
http://i40.tinypic.com/21m9089.jpg
http://i43.tinypic.com/dcit3.jpg
http://i43.tinypic.com/2uf55ee.jpg

And according to Gruenwalk baby logic, he was limited to lightspeed when this happened. So, naturally, Moondragon aged many years considering all the light years they traveled? Right Zop, give me a high five for that logic!

Originally posted by zopzop
Fact is, it's Hickman that's the hack. It's his idiocy that's sh|t all over Marvel continuity for the sake of his garbage story.

The Builders, guys that use ships to destroy worlds and can't even survive a direct confrontation with said ships should they be turned against them, put the phucking LT into a coma. FAIL.

The Kree and the other galactic races are supposedly no match for these "planet busting" ships yet the Kree's weapons are so powerful they have a GALAXY busting bomb in their phucking arsenal. FAIL.

Earth is in mortal danger from these "planet busters" yet there's a guy on team whose daddy is a confirmed GALAXY buster and his mom is an Elder God. FAIL.

Bonus Hickman stupidity :
Celestials withstanding a UN blast and random gun in Reed's closet >>>>>>>>>>>>>UN. No more a hack than Gruenwald I'm afraid. Fact is Gruenwald did shit a person like you should be fuming over considering you hate everything in comics that doesn't follow up correctly. But no, you love Gruenwald like your sugar daddy. You want him to give you money and his sloppy penis. Kind of weird if you ask me.

You are literally lying about that first part. Unless you aren't, but in that case, give me thee scan that says the Builders put LT into a coma if thou wilt.
Also, they can't survive confrontation with the planet busters because the planet busters were the small fleet they were using there. The planet busters were not used to be defended against anyway

They're no match because the planet destroying ships attack out of nowhere. And apparently the Builders vastly outnumber them.
You might as well raise gripes about the Kree not using galaxy destroying bombs against the Skrulls while you're at it though. You know, the majority of their history against the Skrulls?
"Here, let's drop this galaxy destroying bomb on a handful of Builder ships while we're in our own galaxy, and it in no way will destroy our entire race "
"BRILLIANT ZOP-VELL, I CAN'T SEE A THING WRONG WITH THAT SOLUTION!"

Odin doesn't give a shit about Earth, the guy didn't even care if Surtur would have destroyed the multiverse. And Gaea doesn't even fight. Earth is in danger in its current state, not if worst comes to worst. Plus the Builders have no qualms about just blowing up a planet. It might be a little late for Thor to ask Odin to save them when the villains will just kablooey everything.

You mean the gun that fired a giant anti matter shell that bounced around inside the Celestials, and was called a Universal Entropy Gun?
How dare Anti Matter get used correctly, that had to bounce around and get fired to be effective, and apparently only worked because of their energy bleed.






Anyway, Lord Mar-Vell wins using shitty Gruenwald Runner, or true Runner regardless. Just that your logic sucks dildos.

Also, I hate the way you quote things.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
You mean the gun that fired a giant anti matter shell that bounced around inside the Celestials, and was called a Universal Entropy Gun?
How dare Anti Matter get used correctly, that had to bounce around and get fired to be effective, and apparently only worked because of their energy bleed.
The impressive thing is that a tiny pint(like milligram tiny) of anti-matter is enough to blow up a city, and a fist-sized shell only blew a (slightly bigger than) fist sized hole in the armor of that Celestial. The universal entropy thingy clearly disrupted the energy essence of the Celestial inside the armor, and the whole process must have been pretty painful based on the way Reed sadistically stated, "I hope that hurts". Not to mention Nathaniel's implication that they had been destroying the native universes of other alternate Reeds while hunting them down across the multiverse.

Damn, I forgot how awesome the Mad Celestials were in their handful of appearances. Truly one of the most powerful incarnations of a host of Celestials I've ever seen.

I'm just thinking of how LT proved his omniscience to Eriskhal in that story and then quickly picked Surfer to challenge Quasar knowing Surfer would win eventually. He had it in the bag from the beginning.

Originally posted by Sundipped
I'm just thinking of how LT proved his omniscience to Eriskhal in that story and then quickly picked Surfer to challenge Quasar knowing Surfer would win eventually. He had it in the bag from the beginning. Zop would never admit that. He loves Gruenwald like the mother who never abandoned him.

LT rarely just goes out and blasts someone though. Even Slorioth took some debating before he out and out just exiled it like a baby

LT is like Marvel's version of Alien X, except that he actually does get things done, instead of just standing around like a ****ing statue and debating for all eternity.

Originally posted by h1a8
Runner with ease. Almost spite. care to prove why?

Originally posted by Insane Titan
care to prove why? Speed kills. Mar-vell wouldn't even touch him.

Originally posted by h1a8
Speed kills. Mar-vell wouldn't even touch him. lol Marvell had no trouble stopping Nova trying to blitz him at flight, so again any proof from comics which you don't read

Originally posted by Insane Titan
lol Marvell had no trouble stopping Nova trying to blitz him at flight, so again any proof from comics which you don't read Post Nova blitzing at top speeds at Mar-vell and Mar-vell reacting. You do know that Runner is a lot faster right?

Originally posted by h1a8
Post Nova blitzing at top speeds at Mar-vell and Mar-vell reacting. You do know that Runner is a lot faster right? go read a damn comic for once you ignorant lazy bastard Thanos Imperative it's in.

At flight speed Runner is not a lot faster than Nova, you show me Runner blitzing anyone on panel other that Thsnos when he had the space gem .

surfer was able to hold his own against Runner for a while and Marvell swatted Surfer like a fly

Lord

Originally posted by Insane Titan
go read a damn comic for once you ignorant lazy bastard Thanos Imperative it's in.

At flight speed Runner is not a lot faster than Nova, you show me Runner blitzing anyone on panel other that Thsnos when he had the space gem .

surfer was able to hold his own against Runner for a while and Marvell swatted Surfer like a fly abc logic doesn't work.
I can easily weave an abc logic to show Spidey >>>>>> Thor. Just use high and low showings. NOVA DIDN'T GO THE SPEED OF LIGHT WHEN HE ATTACKED MARVELL.

Originally posted by h1a8
abc logic doesn't work.
I can easily weave an abc logic to show Spidey >>>>>> Thor. Just use high and low showings. NOVA DIDN'T GO THE SPEED OF LIGHT WHEN HE ATTACKED MARVELL. typical troll answer again