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1) Fight in neutral universe, Odin and Cyttorak are at regular power.
2) Fight in Cyttorak's dimension with Odin in Destroyer Armour.
3) Fight in Asgard with all Asgardians assisting Odin (who is in The Destroyer Armour) and Cyttorak.
4) Fight in a Dark Dimension melded Asgard so both Odin and Cyttorak are at full power, Odin AND Cyttorak are using The Destroyer Armour.


Abraxas is angry and out to kill.


What happens?

Abraxas, the one that was imprisoned inside Galactus? He should WTFstomp in scenario 1 through 4.

Many people aren't impressed by him or say that his powers and feats were vague. I used to believe that too till I saw how Franklin was powerless and in fear of his life vs Abraxas. The same Franklin that took on multiple Rogue Celestials and was stated by them to be "beyond Omega level" and a universal level reality warper.

Team dies.

The thing about Cytorrak, is that he doesn't have any showings outside of Avatars. For all we know, in real space he could be a major multiversal threat. All we have on his history is that, if he was not imprisoned within the Crimson Cosmos that he would have destroyed all of reality. This small fact means, and implies that if Marvel launched a story on him breaching the wards that keeps him tucked away in his pocket universe, that he may be as large a threat or larger than Thanos in possession of the Infinity Gauntlet. Cain's power alone was stated on panel as being able to warp universes.

Originally posted by Stoic
The thing about Cytorrak, is that he doesn't have any showings outside of Avatars. For all we know, in real space he could be a major multiversal threat. All we have on his history is that, if he was not imprisoned within the Crimson Cosmos that he would have destroyed all of reality. This small fact means, and implies that if Marvel launched a story on him breaching the wards that keeps him tucked away in his pocket universe, that he may be as large a threat or larger than Thanos in possession of the Infinity Gauntlet. Cain's power alone was stated on panel as being able to warp universes. And Cain's power is clearly nowhere close to that.

So why should we believe that Cyttorak can destroy the multiverse?

lol at him being IG level though.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
And Cain's power is clearly nowhere close to that.

So why should we believe that Cyttorak can destroy the multiverse?

lol at him being IG level though.


Why lol at what can't be proven either way? I was just going with the only shred of evidence that may place Cytorrak above the typical High Skyfather. In other wards I was simply speculating, but any thread that concerns Cytorrak is, and has always been speculation. He could be greater, that an IG user, or less than Odin. We will never know until Marvel releases him. My thoughts? If Annihilus could have been boosted up to cause the crap that he has, I wouldn't put it past Marvel to make Cytorrak into a much larger threat.

Originally posted by Stoic
Why lol at what can't be proven either way? I was just going with the only shred of evidence that may place Cytorrak above the typical High Skyfather. In other wards I was simply speculating, but any thread that concerns Cytorrak is, and has always been speculation. He could be greater, that an IG user, or less than Odin. We will never know until Marvel releases him. My thoughts? If Annihilus could have been boosted up to cause the crap that he has, I wouldn't put it past Marvel to make Cytorrak into a much larger threat. Or Cyttorak could be KO'ed by Juggernaut

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Or Cyttorak could be KO'ed by Juggernaut

Wasn't that an Avatar of Cyttorak?

Originally posted by Stoic
Wasn't that an Avatar of Cyttorak? If Cyttorak is an avatar of Cyttorak

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
If Cyttorak is an avatar of Cyttorak


The guy that Cain beat up was an Avatar of Cytorrak from what I remember. It wasn't the real guy, as he is, and has always been tucked away in his dimension. Unless of course you believe that Cytorrak gave Cain the power to whip him, when every other depiction shows Cytorrak having the ability to strip Cain of his power.

pretty sure it was the real cyttorak.... he was also present recently in hell during the serpent incident. i'm with bran on this one......

Originally posted by Stoic
The guy that Cain beat up was an Avatar of Cytorrak from what I remember. It wasn't the real guy, as he is, and has always been tucked away in his dimension. Unless of course you believe that Cytorrak gave Cain the power to whip him, when every other depiction shows Cytorrak having the ability to strip Cain of his power. No. Cyttorak didn't create an avatar of him in his own dimension to try and trap Galactus... lol if Galactus would have actually came out of his ship.

I'm also pretty sure Juggernaut has beaten him in a mental battle too. During Onslaught I believe.

Originally posted by leonidas
pretty sure it was the real cyttorak.... he was also present recently in hell during the serpent incident. i'm with bran on this one......

The real Cytorrak that is trapped in the Crimson Cosmos, was in Hell? I did not read what it is that you are referring to, but I'll take your word on it. I just don't understand, how it was the real guy and not an Avatar, when the real guy is trapped in the Crimson Cosmos. Does that make sense to you? As for me, I've got nothing.

Originally posted by Stoic
The real Cytorrak that is trapped in the Crimson Cosmos, was in Hell? I did not read what it is that you are referring to, but I'll take your word on it. I just don't understand, how it was the real guy and not an Avatar, when the real guy is trapped in the Crimson Cosmos. Does that make sense to you? As for me, I've got nothing.

You have to understand something Stoic, for the past few decades it's Asgard >>>>>>>>>>>>>all other powers and principalities in Marvel. Only recently has Pak (?) begun to bring up other pantheons in power. For example, during the Fear Itself arc (that Sr and Leo are referring too with Cytorrak being in hell), Odin wanted to annihilate the Earth to end the Serpent. But Zeus stood up to him and prevented that plan from going through. Now it looks like they are finally giving the Olympians some respect over at Marvel. We'll see how long this lasts.

Originally posted by zopzop
You have to understand something Stoic, for the past few decades it's Asgard >>>>>>>>>>>>>all other powers and principalities in Marvel.

As it should be.

Originally posted by zopzop
You have to understand something Stoic, for the past few decades it's Asgard >>>>>>>>>>>>>all other powers and principalities in Marvel. Only recently has Pak (?) begun to bring up other pantheons in power. For example, during the Fear Itself arc (that Sr and Leo are referring too with Cytorrak being in hell), Odin wanted to annihilate the Earth to end the Serpent. But Zeus stood up to him and prevented that plan from going through. Now it looks like they are finally giving the Olympians some respect over at Marvel. We'll see how long this lasts.


Gotcha. It still does little to quell the question of how Cytorrak was in Hell, while also being trapped in the Cimson Cosmos? Is it poor writing due to an inept writer or something else? All the same. That guy who is and has always been sitting in his own pocket universe, has no physical feats based on accurate continuity. You see where I'm coming from? I'm not with or against Abraxas, or even Ironman being able to spank Cytorrak, my thing is his continuity, and how most of the stuff written about him being in the physical universe, makes absolutely no sense, when he was placed behind unbreakable wards.

Originally posted by Stoic
Gotcha. It still does little to quell the question of how Cytorrak was in Hell, while also being trapped in the Cimson Cosmos? Is it poor writing due to an inept writer or something else? All the same. That guy who is and has always been sitting in his own pocket universe, has no physical feats based on accurate continuity. You see where I'm coming from? I'm not with or against Abraxas, or even Ironman being able to spank Cytorrak, my thing is his continuity, and how most of the stuff written about him being in the physical universe, makes absolutely no sense, when he was placed behind unbreakable wards.

Oh it was craptacular writing. Fear Itself was sh|t warmed over. There were other Demon Lords that shouldn't or couldn't have been their. Let me find the pic/scan, it's out there on the net. Give me a min.

@Stoic
And here you go.
http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/cyttorak-v-insane-genis-vell/634030/?page=6
Scroll down a few posts and you'll see it, lord_oraculous016's post. Supposedly Elder Gods like Chthon and Set (? this appearance is in dispute, looks like it could be his son Sligguth instead), Cosmic Level Demons like Shuma Gorath and the Adversary, and supremely powerful Earth based demons like Satannish and Mephisto and Marduk Kurios (the guy who fought CHAOS KING) were gathered about what do do with the Serpent. A complete clusterfxxk of a story.

Now factor in how easily Odin dealt with the Serpent and his worthy before and according to Marvel Odin >>>Serpent>>>>>>>>>>>>>>all other demon lords in existence.

Originally posted by zopzop
@Stoic
And here you go.
http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/cyttorak-v-insane-genis-vell/634030/?page=6
Scroll down a few posts and you'll see it, lord_oraculous016's post. Supposedly Elder Gods like Chthon and Set (? this appearance is in dispute, looks like it could be his son Sligguth instead), Cosmic Level Demons like Shuma Gorath and the Adversary, and supremely powerful Earth based demons like Satannish and Mephisto and Marduk Kurios (the guy who fought CHAOS KING) were gathered about what do do with the Serpent. A complete clusterfxxk of a story.

Now factor in how easily Odin dealt with the Serpent and his worthy before and according to Marvel Odin >>>Serpent>>>>>>>>>>>>>>all other demon lords in existence.


Yeah I read the comments pertaining to the crap written in that book, and I can't see any reason that this would not be able to be retconned, and easily at that. Explaining how Cytorrak was anywhere other than his prison with no way out makes no sense, and I hope the writer or a writer in the future irons the assembly of demons out, but many really shouldn't be there. Cytorrak in particular can not be there physically. All of that could have been astral projections of every demon that appeared in those scans as well.

Originally posted by zopzop
@Stoic
And here you go.
http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/cyttorak-v-insane-genis-vell/634030/?page=6
Scroll down a few posts and you'll see it, lord_oraculous016's post. Supposedly Elder Gods like Chthon and Set (? this appearance is in dispute, looks like it could be his son Sligguth instead), Cosmic Level Demons like Shuma Gorath and the Adversary, and supremely powerful Earth based demons like Satannish and Mephisto and Marduk Kurios (the guy who fought CHAOS KING) were gathered about what do do with the Serpent. A complete clusterfxxk of a story.

Now factor in how easily Odin dealt with the Serpent and his worthy before and according to Marvel Odin >>>Serpent>>>>>>>>>>>>>>all other demon lords in existence. I don't see Cyttorak there, but lol at Shuma Gorath, Cthon, and Set worrying about such small affairs.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
I don't see Cyttorak there, but lol at Shuma Gorath, Cthon, and Set worrying about such small affairs.

But even more than that. Did you spot Adversary? This guy challenged and beat Roma, the Omniversal Guardian. Marduk Kurios was there in a panic and he went one on one vs Chaos King (sure he lost but hey at least he put up a fight). Hell, Jesus Christ is there!

Originally posted by zopzop
But even more than that. Did you spot Adversary? This guy challenged and beat Roma, the Omniversal Guardian. Marduk Kurios was there in a panic and he went one on one vs Chaos King (sure he lost but hey at least he put up a fight). Hell, Jesus Christ is there! Ya, I don't think that issue proves anything at all

As for Jesus... they put him in hell... I'm surprised there isn't religion freaks complaining about that.

Originally posted by zopzop
But even more than that. Did you spot Adversary? This guy challenged and beat Roma, the Omniversal Guardian. Marduk Kurios was there in a panic and he went one on one vs Chaos King (sure he lost but hey at least he put up a fight). Hell, Jesus Christ is there!

Scan?

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Scan?

http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/4442/2021092journeyintomyste.th.jpg

The very top panel has : The Adversary (beat the Omniversal Guardian Roma) Satannish and Marduk Kurios (the guy that CK took on).

The middle panel has : Kazaan (a fallen angel), Chthon! and Shuma Gorath!

The bottom panel has : Jesus Christ, Mother of Pain, and what looks like Damballah (either the Set spawn or the Voodoo God)/Sliggoth/Set.

Hilarious hysterical

PS Anyone recognize any of the other demons?

Where was Cyttorak then?

Well according to the bible, Jesus went down into hell to get the keys that would allow man to enter Heaven by faith, instead of works.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
I don't see Cyttorak there, but lol at Shuma Gorath, Cthon, and Set worrying about such small affairs.
Originally posted by janus77
Where was Cyttorak then?

Sorry, that was on page 7 of the comicvine thread, it wasn't showing up so I had to google it :
http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/5442/cytorrak.th.jpg

There goes Cyotrrak AND Dormammu! Look at the sheer number of Demon Lords all in a tizzy over the power of the Serpent (a guy Odin beat with ease)!

Originally posted by zopzop
Sorry, that was on page 7 of the comicvine thread, it wasn't showing up so I had to google it :
http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/5442/cytorrak.th.jpg

There goes Cyotrrak AND Dormammu! Look at the sheer number of Demon Lords all in a tizzy over the power of the Serpent (a guy Odin beat with ease)! Half of the people in that comic would beat up Serpent. Except Cyttorak... that guy sucks.

Ah, so it doesn't explicitly state that Cyttorak's there, just some character that looks a little like him? Doesn't Cyttorak look like Juggernaut on steroids?

Originally posted by janus77
Ah, so it doesn't explicitly state that Cyttorak's there, just some character that looks a little like him? Doesn't Cyttorak look like Juggernaut on steroids?

No that's him. You can see the Ruby on his chest and everything.

Also looks like D'spayre is there, Blackheart and Hela too.

Originally posted by zopzop
No that's him. You can see the Ruby on his chest and everything.

Also looks like D'spayre is there, Blackheart and Hela too.

But it does not prove that what we saw was anything more than an astral projection of Cytorrak. How could it be him, when he is imprisoned in the Crimson Cosmos. The same could be said of all of those demons present.

Originally posted by Stoic
But it does not prove that what we saw was anything more than an astral projection of Cytorrak. How could it be him, when he is imprisoned in the Crimson Cosmos. The same could be said of all of those demons present.

But that's secondary. The whole thing was they were in fear or at least had serious concern about the Serpent and his power, other wise why would they heed Mephisto's summons?

That's what makes the writing even more sh|tty!

Originally posted by zopzop
But that's secondary. The whole thing was they were in fear or at least had serious concern about the Serpent and his power, other wise why would they heed Mephisto's summons?

That's what makes the writing even more sh|tty!


It sure does. The writer deserves to be clapped in the back of the head. Anything, and I mean anything outside of Cytorrak being stuck in that pocket universe makes no sense, outside it being an Avy of him. his bio has yet to be retconned, and how would they go about doing that? Unless some super uber nasty sorcerer dude, breaks his ass out, he's stuck. Debating him is as harder than debating Dr. Manhattan. No feats exist if we go by canonical, and contiguous continuity.

Abraxas wins.

Originally posted by zopzop
Sorry, that was on page 7 of the comicvine thread, it wasn't showing up so I had to google it :
http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/5442/cytorrak.th.jpg

There goes Cyotrrak AND Dormammu! Look at the sheer number of Demon Lords all in a tizzy over the power of the Serpent (a guy Odin beat with ease)!

Yea, I love the big guy as much as anyone but the way he casually slaughtered everyone on the planet, and imprisoned the Serpent (I'm assuming in the process also wiped away all memories of his existence) was a bit crazy. It's true that Odin had his sword and armor but I would have argued you needed at least two high end entities (Galactus/Odin types etc.) to take him down.

He was Odin's bigger and more powerful brother (Mostly because he chose to embrace the old ways that the All Father shunned), too bad he chocked, basically everyone was shitting themselves at his arrival and Surfer (Too bad it wasn't Galactus himself) said he threatened to surpass the Power Cosmic or whatever. I hated the retcon but there was so much potential. The only explanation I can see is that killing everyone on the Aishem (The world before Earth) weakened the Serpent. Only speculation though.

just because all those demons gathered doesnt mean one of them couldnt have beat serpent solo.

Originally posted by zopzop


http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/4442/2021092journeyintomyste.th.jpg

The very top panel has : The Adversary (beat the Omniversal Guardian Roma)
I don't see anyone there that looks like Roma,
and she's not mentioned via name or title.

Are there more scans?

Originally posted by Mr Master
I don't see anyone there that looks like Roma,
and she's not mentioned via name or title.

Are there more scans?

No I meant that the Adversary was there and he was the guy that beat Roma, the Omniversal Guardian.

All of Adversary's feats come from older X-Men books.

Is Saturnyne part of the same race as Roma?

Originally posted by zopzop

No I meant that the Adversary was there and he was the guy that beat Roma, the Omniversal Guardian.
Oh, that Adversary, that was accomplished via stipulation though.

Just sayin.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

Is Saturnyne part of the same race as Roma?
Roma is not part of a race.

She's a "goddess," born of a "god" (Merlin) ...

She has no alternates other than ones she has created herself in other realities,
just like Merlin.

They're absolute and unto themselves.

No beginning explained, they just appeared one day like "Gods" in the sky and that's it.

I have Merlin in that issue saying he's like the father of creation,
and they're immortals who have always been and something to that affect.

Saturnyne isn't anything special anyway

Originally posted by Mr Master
Roma is not part of a race.

She's a "goddess," born of a "god" (Merlin) ...

She has no alternates other than ones she has created herself in other realities,
just like Merlin.

They're absolute and unto themselves.

No beginning explained, they just appeared one day like "Gods" in the sky and that's it.

I have Merlin in that issue saying he's like the father of creation,
and they're immortals who have always been and something to that affect.

Yes, yes I know, general God hype, I remember that much, it's their origins that I don't remember very well.

So Merlyn and Roma aren't part of any race/pantheon? I know Saturnyne is Roma's servant, but there's no other relation? I just don't remember any sort of divinity referenced regarding her.

all in all, fear itself was shit

that journey into mystery comic starring mephisto was dope though

Abraxas swats Odin and Cyttorak like flies.

Originally posted by zopzop
No that's him. You can see the Ruby on his chest and everything.

Also looks like D'spayre is there, Blackheart and Hela too.


the guy with the ruby in his chest is definately NOT cyttorak... if anybody in that scan was cyttorak it would be the RED OUTLINE and glowing eyes right under shuma in the top picture

Originally posted by KillAll
the guy with the ruby in his chest is definately NOT cyttorak... if anybody in that scan was cyttorak it would be the RED OUTLINE and glowing eyes right under shuma in the top picture

Oh but it is. You can even compare the picture of him in that scan to his appearance in the Uncanny X-men issue where they visit his realm!

http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/5355/uncannyxmen542.th.jpg

lol what if Odin temporarily became avatar of Cytorrak inside the destroyer armor

Cytorrak was definitely present during that meeting. Mephisto even mentions his name when calling out the Hell Lords.

i stand corrected... i wasnt aware that they changed cyttoraks appearance AGAIN...

i've been outta the comic book scene for a while lol. what happened after that scan where they told cyttorak his avatar betrayed him?

Originally posted by KillAll
i stand corrected... i wasnt aware that they changed cyttoraks appearance AGAIN...

i've been outta the comic book scene for a while lol. what happened after that scan where they told cyttorak his avatar betrayed him?

Cain Marko got excommunicated from what I remember.

Originally posted by zopzop
You have to understand something Stoic, for the past few decades it's Asgard >>>>>>>>>>>>>all other powers and principalities in Marvel. Only recently has Pak (?) begun to bring up other pantheons in power. For example, during the Fear Itself arc (that Sr and Leo are referring too with Cytorrak being in hell), Odin wanted to annihilate the Earth to end the Serpent. But Zeus stood up to him and prevented that plan from going through. Now it looks like they are finally giving the Olympians some respect over at Marvel. We'll see how long this lasts.

can I see the scans of zeus standing up to Odin buddy?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
can I see the scans of zeus standing up to Odin buddy?

Odin wanted to annihilate the Earth to stop the Serpent from drawing power from peoples fears. He's done it before (Odin wiping the Earth clean that is).

Zeus stepped in and said, not only no, but hell no. They had an "argument" and the matter was settled. He didn't wipe the Earth and the Serpent fiasco was considered an internal matter for the Asgardians.

http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/6811/1z2ps1y.th.jpg

You can clearly see they were doing more than just talking, Odin had his spear and everything. And apparently no other Skyfather jumped in. So it was strictly between Odin and Zeus.

What? The plan to wipe Earth clean didn't stop because the other Skyfathers disagreed, Odin would have done it anyways but Thor convinced him to stay his hand and let him face the Serpent first.

I know Zeus doesn't have that many feats but common.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
What? The plan to wipe Earth clean didn't stop because the other Skyfathers disagreed, Odin would have done it anyways but Thor convinced him to stay his hand and let him face the Serpent first.

I know Zeus doesn't have that many feats but common.

Wasn't it stated that after that incident, the matter would be considered an internal Asgardian problem? If so and Odin did indeed intent to go ahead and annihilate life on Earth, wouldn't he be in breach of his agreement?

Originally posted by zopzop
Wasn't it stated that after that incident, the matter would be considered an internal Asgardian problem? If so and Odin did indeed intent to go ahead and annihilate life on Earth, wouldn't he be in breach of his agreement?

I don't remember the specifics but I do know that Odin was going to go ahead and wipe away humanity anyways, his plans didn't change just because Zeus disagreed.

Without double checking, I'd say that the council sided with Odin which is why it was considered an internal Asgardian matter. The Skyfathers adhere to Odin as their leader and if it came down to a pissing contest, Olympus isn't winning.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I don't remember the specifics but I do know that Odin was going to go ahead and wipe away humanity anyways, his plans didn't change just because Zeus disagreed.

Without double checking, I'd say that the council sided with Odin which is why it was considered an internal Asgardian matter. The Skyfathers adhere to Odin as their leader and if it came down to a pissing contest, Olympus isn't winning.

Zeus only backed down when the other Godheads took Odin's side and agreed that this was an internal Asgardian affair and that if humanity was wiped as a result of it, they could always make more.

The Olypmians didn't press the issue, not because they feared Asgard but because they feared ALL the other Godheads would jump them.

http://img860.imageshack.us/img860/7858/godwar.th.jpg

Like I said, they sided with Odin. Also, why are you so sure Zeus shut his mouth (Shouldn't have gotten uppity in the first place) only because the other Godheads agreed with Odin?

For the record, Zeus followed Odin's lead as well:
http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/1588/herc5015.th.jpg

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Like I said, they sided with Odin. Also, why are you so sure Zeus shut his mouth (Shouldn't have gotten uppity in the first place) only because the other Godheads agreed with Odin?
because as the scan said because all the pantheons were sided with odin.

i hope you dont think zeus is scared of Odin.

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
because as the scan said because all the pantheons were sided with odin.

i hope you dont think zeus is scared of Odin.

I understand that the Pantheons adhered to Odin, but I don't know why his so sure it's the only reason Zeus backed down. Is there a scan that I've missed or is he only speculating?

Scared? I don't think his scared, but I know he respects Odin, could be he was simply convinced by the All-Father and so followed his lead like Hermes said.

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
because as the scan said because all the pantheons were sided with odin.

i hope you dont think zeus is scared of Odin. There's no reason to believe he's scared of Odin that's just rage's wishful thinking.