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Count nefaria at his peak and best vs
1. Savage hulk
2. Wb Hulk

Who takes this and why?

Nefaria.
Hulk.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Nefaria.
Hulk.

/thread

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Nefaria.
Hulk.

1- Split
2- Green Scar and above stomp

Hulk in both.

The Nefaria overrating on other forums is because he's a Kirby creation, right?

On another forum I used to visit, it's been seriously argued by otherwise credible posters that Count Nefaria is like an evil Pre Crisis Superman.. His best strength feat is, what, lifting a skyscraper? And his speeds kind of a slow super sonic, if he's 100 times the Whirlwind.

Anyways...

1. If Iron Man in "Overdrive mode" can KO Savage Hulk, Nefaria should be able to as well, since he matched and overpowered IM while overdriving.

2. Hulk.

Nefaria wins.

No incarnation of the Hulk was able to do what Nefaria did to so many, so quickly and so easily.

Originally posted by Horrificus
Nefaria wins.

No incarnation of the Hulk was able to do what Nefaria did to so many, so quickly and so easily.

But who did he do it too?

Atlas and Wonderman were the biggest guns in the Avengers/Thunderbolts, and they weren't even in the fight. That left, who, Iron Man as the heavy hitter?

The same Iron Man Namor usually dismantles easily?

His original fight against the Avengers was more impressive, but his performance against Thor isn't beyond how Hulks done against him..

Originally posted by cdtm
But who did he do it too?

Atlas and Wonderman were the biggest guns in the Avengers/Thunderbolts, and they weren't even in the fight. That left, who, Iron Man as the heavy hitter?

The same Iron Man Namor usually dismantles easily?

His original fight against the Avengers was more impressive, but his performance against Thor isn't beyond how Hulks done against him.. Hulk has never casually palmed Thor's hammer. And he has shrugged off blows from Wonderman and Thor. Hulk cannot say the same thing.
And, this is just a description of the strength and durability advantage.

Originally posted by Horrificus
Hulk has never casually palmed Thor's hammer. And he has shrugged off blows from Wonderman and Thor. Hulk cannot say the same thing.
And, this is just a description of the strength and durability advantage.

Hulks blows seemed to hurt him.

Wonder Man couldn't hurt Thor with his best punch, either, in his first showing. The only reason he managed to knock him off his feet, is because it was a sucker punch (established by the story), yet the story made it clear he could not harm Thor.

Originally posted by Horrificus
Hulk has never casually palmed Thor's hammer. And he has shrugged off blows from Wonderman and Thor. Hulk cannot say the same thing.
And, this is just a description of the strength and durability advantage.

Do you know who.World Breaker Hulk is? Heralds attacks wasnt even causing him an inch and these are huh class Heralds...Heralds that have fts of damaging Surfer.

Originally posted by carver9
Do you know who.World Breaker Hulk is? Heralds attacks wasnt even causing him an inch and these are huh class Heralds...Heralds that have fts of damaging Surfer. I read the whole thing. He took plenty of punishment and was not as untouchable as Nefaria was. I'm just going by what was on panel.

Originally posted by Horrificus
I read the whole thing. He took plenty of punishment and was not as untouchable as Nefaria was. I'm just going by what was on panel.

Are you talking about World at War?

Originally posted by cdtm
Hulks blows seemed to hurt him.

Wonder Man couldn't hurt Thor with his best punch, either, in his first showing. The only reason he managed to knock him off his feet, is because it was a sucker punch (established by the story), yet the story made it clear he could not harm Thor. I'm not sure what you mean by his first showing, but Wonderman has NEVER been an easy fight for any heavy-weight.
I would need to see scans of Thor ignoring WM's punches the way Nefaria was able to AND Hulk being able to ignore those strikes as well.
Because, seriously, if you read the books, you will see that the word "ignore" is fitting.
You have to admit that this is kind of a big deal.

Like this for example...

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/8094152_Incredible_Hulks_632_008.jpg http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/8094154_Incredible_Hulks_632_009.jpg http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/8094156_Incredible_Hulks_632_012.jpg http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/8094158_Incredible_Hulks_632_013.jpg http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/8094162_Incredible_Hulks_632_014.jpg http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/8094165_Incredible_Hulks_632_015.jpg http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/8094167_Incredible_Hulks_632_016.jpg

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/8094184_Incredible_Hulks_632_017.jpg http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/8094185_Incredible_Hulks_632_018.jpg http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/8094186_Incredible_Hulks_632_019.jpg http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/8094188_Incredible_Hulks_632_020.jpg http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/8094189_Incredible_Hulks_632_021.jpg http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/8094193_Incredible_Hulks_632_022.jpg

Originally posted by Horrificus
Hulk has never casually palmed Thor's hammer. And he has shrugged off blows from Wonderman and Thor. Hulk cannot say the same thing.
And, this is just a description of the strength and durability advantage.


What? Rulk took a hit in the face by Thor's hammer full force, and sat there with a grin on his face. The Hulk broke Rulks ass. Nefaria would get the snot beaten out of him by present day Hulk. Savage Hulk would have a very hard time with him, and lose the majority, if and only if Nefaria is quick about taking him out.

Hulk FTW

The Hulks tend to drag their own little slice of reality around with them.

Hulk 7/10

Originally posted by cdtm
The Nefaria overrating on other forums is because he's a Kirby creation, right?

On another forum I used to visit, it's been seriously argued by otherwise credible posters that Count Nefaria is like an evil Pre Crisis Superman.. His best strength feat is, what, lifting a skyscraper? And his speeds kind of a slow super sonic, if he's 100 times the Whirlwind.

Anyways...

1. If Iron Man in "Overdrive mode" can KO Savage Hulk, Nefaria should be able to as well, since he matched and overpowered IM while overdriving.

2. Hulk.

huh? kirby didn't create nefaria....

and palming thor's hammer still ranks as one of the great feats any brick can pull off.... he also COMPLETELY no sold wonderman's punches.

http://www.supermegamonkey.net/chronocomic/entries/scans/A165_WonderManVsNefaria.JPG

that is a hell of a feat given some of simon's own showings. he's NOT pre-c supes, obviously, but that early team of avengers that finally beat him was pretty stacked--thor, IM, vision, wonderman and scarlet witch all worked together to take him out. great showing for the count, no way around it.

Originally posted by leonidas
huh? kirby didn't create nefaria....

and palming thor's hammer still ranks as one of the great feats any brick can pull off.... he also COMPLETELY no sold wonderman's punches.

http://www.supermegamonkey.net/chronocomic/entries/scans/A165_WonderManVsNefaria.JPG

that is a hell of a feat given some of simon's own showings. he's NOT pre-c supes, obviously, but that early team of avengers that finally beat him was pretty stacked--thor, IM, vision, wonderman and scarlet witch all worked together to take him out. great showing for the count, no way around it.


Hulk recently ignored guys 3 guys that punched him, and they are ranked higher than Wonderman in the strength department.

Originally posted by Stoic
Hulk recently ignored guys 3 guys that punched him, and they are ranked higher than Wonderman in the strength department. hmm i disagree with this. Wonderman is pretty beastly in strength.

Originally posted by Damborgson
hmm i disagree with this. Wonderman is pretty beastly in strength.

Wonderman isn't as strong as Savage Hulk and Bi Beast and Wendigo is just as strong as Savage Hulk.

Originally posted by Damborgson
hmm i disagree with this. Wonderman is pretty beastly in strength.


Based on the time period, Simon was never as strong as Savage Hulk, Bi-Beast, or Wendigo as Carver pointed out, nor was he ever written to be on their level in terms of strength. Wendigo was taking it to the X-Men, Savage Hulk and Sasquatch. The Savage Hulk was never able to claim a decisive victory over him, nor did he ever embarrass Bi-Beast. Simon was never able to take it to Savage Hulk for a long period of time, and was always seen as being a step above the Thing.

Fin Fang Foom, Wendigo, Bi-Beast, Arm'Cheddon, and an army of Forgotten Ones, would have been way over Wonderman, at the time that Nefaria was no selling his punches.

Originally posted by carver9
Wonderman isn't as strong as Savage Hulk and Bi Beast and Wendigo is just as strong as Savage Hulk. base level yeah. and it depends on the wendigo. some arent even as strong as gray hulk. Wonderman has been able to give Thor hell physically and even overpower him once if im correct. Thor was holding back of course and when he got serious he took him out, but the point is WM is no lightweight. He's around proffesor hulk level.

Originally posted by Damborgson
base level yeah. and it depends on the wendigo. some arent even as strong as gray hulk. Wonderman has been able to give Thor hell physically and even overpower him once if im correct. Thor was holding back of course and when he got serious he took him out, but the point is WM is no lightweight. He's around proffesor hulk level.

The Wendigo of HOTM was the original. Wonderman once attempted to show off in front of Ms. Marvel, claiming that he could lift weight that Thor routinely lifted, and was nearly crushed when he realized that he was way out of his league.

The battle that Simon had with Professor Hulk seemed almost like PIS and CIS to me. Not once was he ever able to rise to that height of power, he even had trouble with the Thing, who was far below the Prof. Hulk, and then suddenly he's giving him a hard time? There are times in comics, that certain writers are willing to ignore past events, due to their likes or dislikes of the character that they are writing. If Simon could replicate that feat a couple more times, then I would place him well within that range, but Simon has always just been one of those guys, that could take a heavy beating while keeping the big bad guy from killing everyone in sight. He's never been a team crusher or anything.

Originally posted by Stoic
The Wendigo of HOTM was the original. Wonderman once attempted to show off in front of Ms. Marvel, claiming that he could lift weight that Thor routinely lifted, and was nearly crushed when he realized that he was way out of his league.

The battle that Simon had with Professor Hulk seemed almost like PIS and CIS to me. Not once was he ever able to rise to that height of power, he even had trouble with the Thing, who was far below the Prof. Hulk, and then suddenly he's giving him a hard time? There are times in comics, that certain writers are willing to ignore past events, due to their likes or dislikes of the character that they are writing. If Simon could replicate that feat a couple more times, then I would place him well within that range, but Simon has always just been one of those guys, that could take a heavy beating while keeping the big bad guy from killing everyone in sight. He's never been a team crusher or anything. thats not entirely true. if I remember correctly wonderman was able to lift the weight all the way and them after a bit said he wasnt quite thor in strength. So he did lift it. Just not as welll as thor can.

What about his fights with thor? he's given him a good bit of trouble more thsn once. He's crushed adamantium ultrons head(could have been secondary. If you know please correct me.) And spoken of as a near equal to
thor in strength/striking.

Wouldnt be the first the thing has challenged someone he should be below physically. Its more of a showing than anything.

I wouldn't rank Simon as strong as Wendigo and Bi Beast. He's strong but not as strong as top tiers.

Originally posted by carver9
I wouldn't rank Simon as strong as Wendigo and Bi Beast. He's strong but not as strong as top tiers. I would. He's done well enough in past showings to be up there with them.

Originally posted by Damborgson
I would. He's done well enough in past showings to be up there with them.

I can't picture him matching and defeating a pissed Savage Hulk.

He probably beats savage hulk, and then gets clapped out of existence by WB

Originally posted by carver9
I can't picture him matching and defeating a pissed Savage Hulk. thats you i guess. /shrug

Originally posted by Stoic
What? Rulk took a hit in the face by Thor's hammer full force, and sat there with a grin on his face. The Hulk broke Rulks ass. Nefaria would get the snot beaten out of him by present day Hulk. Savage Hulk would have a very hard time with him, and lose the majority, if and only if Nefaria is quick about taking him out. You realize Rulk was sapping his powers right?

Originally posted by iceman24567
You realize Rulk was sapping his powers right?



Whoops, I forgot all about Rulk's siphoning of Thor. I doubt that it would matter much though with the Hulk, because Nefaria wouldn't be no selling the butt kicking that he would receive from him. The Hulk can go far beyond what Nefaria has to offer. We can go into small, medium, and large feats, in vivid detail, and Nefaria's feats fall very short of what the Hulk has done over the past 5 years.

Anybody that thinks Simon is or was a pushover, hasn't read all of the books with him in it. When he was created, he was billed, pretty much, as the first character that is on the level as Thor or Hulk, without being a God or a Monster.
He was an "everyman" character that could hang with the super-heavies.
And, no, the Hulk and Rulk never did these things:

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q253/ArealSTUPIguy/nefaria3.jpg

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q253/ArealSTUPIguy/avengersv333taintedloveys0.jpg

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q253/ArealSTUPIguy/avengers165050001uh9.jpg

Originally posted by Horrificus
Anybody that thinks Simon is or was a pushover, hasn't read all of the books with him in it. When he was created, he was billed, pretty much, as the first character that is on the level as Thor or Hulk, without being a God or a Monster.
He was an "everyman" character that could hang with the super-heavies.
And, no, the Hulk and Rulk never did these things:

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q253/ArealSTUPIguy/nefaria3.jpg

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q253/ArealSTUPIguy/avengersv333taintedloveys0.jpg

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q253/ArealSTUPIguy/avengers165050001uh9.jpg

Hulk did something better and grabbed Thor arm and used Thor own hammer and made Thor beat the hell out of himself.

As for your second scan, Hyperion did the same thing.

Originally posted by carver9
Wonderman isn't as strong as Savage Hulk and Bi Beast and Wendigo is just as strong as Savage Hulk.

Neither Bi Beast or Wendigo is as strong as Savage Hulk in general.
Remember Savage Hulk is variable in two ways:

1. Strength depends on rage
2. Writer's variance

Hulk has been beaten by both lower beings and higher beings than himself.

IMO, Wendigo and Bi Beast operate at the level Savage Hulk does when he is around 1000-10000 tons. IMO, Wonderman's strength is around a few hundred thousand tons at best (and a few thousand on average).

Originally posted by carver9
Hulk did something better and grabbed Thor arm and used Thor own hammer and made Thor beat the hell out of himself. Which is a strength feat.
I am showing Nefaria's durability by literally being completely unaffected by the Hammer Strikes and a barrage of power punches from Wonder Man.

Come on Carver, admit it. Those scans are nuts! He's just standing there!

1. Nefaria because he is more durable and probably stronger with other powers (like speed and laser vision).
2. WBH because he has HF and is much much stronger and probably as durable

Originally posted by h1a8
Neither Bi Beast or Wendigo is as strong as Savage Hulk in general.
Remember Savage Hulk is variable in two ways:

1. Strength depends on rage
2. Writer's variance

Hulk has been beaten by both lower beings and higher beings than himself.

IMO, Wendigo and Bi Beast operate at the level Savage Hulk does when he is around 1000-10000 tons. IMO, Wonderman's strength is around a few hundred thousand tons at best (and a few thousand on average).

So Bi Beast beating a Hulk that is in a RAGE isn't a ft that puts him in Savage Hulks class?

So Wendigo beating up on both Savage Hulk and Sasquash isn't a ft that puts him in the high tier bracket? Get out of here with your lame math.

You can't discredit everything because the Hulk strength varies, especially if that Hulk is pissed and shaking cities while punching you.

Bye H1.

Originally posted by Horrificus
Which is a strength feat.
I am showing Nefaria's durability by literally being completely unaffected by the Hammer Strikes and a barrage of power punches from Wonder Man.

Come on Carver, admit it. Those scans are nuts! He's just standing there!

I agree, the ft is insane bit it has been repeated by people that Hulk has trounced with 3 punches....Hyperion.

Originally posted by h1a8
Neither Bi Beast or Wendigo is as strong as Savage Hulk in general.
Remember Savage Hulk is variable in two ways:

1. Strength depends on rage
2. Writer's variance

Hulk has been beaten by both lower beings and higher beings than himself.

IMO, Wendigo and Bi Beast operate at the level Savage Hulk does when he is around 1000-10000 tons. IMO, Wonderman's strength is around a few hundred thousand tons at best (and a few thousand on average). Ok. I guess I have to start digging into Wonder Man scans.
If we got paid for all the work we do in these forums, I think we would be a wealthy bunch of comic book nerds.

For the record, if Wendigo and Bi-Beast hadn't been completely ruined in newer showings, in an attempt to make Hulk and other characters look good, they would still rank as some top-tier opponents.
They have been turned into fodder.

Originally posted by carver9
So Bi Beast beating a Hulk that is in a RAGE isn't a ft that puts him in Savage Hulks class?

So Wendigo beating up on both Savage Hulk and Sasquash isn't a ft that puts him in the high tier bracket? Get out of here with your lame math.

You can't discredit everything because the Hulk strength varies, especially if that Hulk is pissed and shaking cities while punching you.

Bye H1.
Wendigo and Bi-Beast, when not abused by writers, are seriously AWESOME opponents.
Between Wendigo's mystical attributes and Bi-Beasts brains to match his brawn, they should hold a lot more weight than they do lately.

Originally posted by Horrificus
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q253/ArealSTUPIguy/avengersv333taintedloveys0.jpg

It should be noted that while Nefaria was insanely durable, the only time he actually bounced Mjolnir off of his chest was on the cover.

I'm sure he could, but Thor arrived just as he finished running a train on the entire Avenger's line up.

Originally posted by carver9
I agree, the ft is insane bit it has been repeated by people that Hulk has trounced with 3 punches....Hyperion.

True, Hyperion has replicated it, but tbf, Thor like usual was holding back. As shown here, he drops another -I think more powerful- Hyperion with a throw (One that he also considers a love tap):
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/ThrowKnocksDownHyperion.jpg

Even a berserk Thing has shrugged off a Mjolnir throw because Thor was afraid that if he threw it with sufficient force, he'd kill him or whatever.

Like I said, Thor holds back a lot.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
It should be noted that while Nefaria was insanely durable, the only time he actually bounced Mjolnir off of his chest was on the cover.

I'm sure he could, but Thor arrived just as he finished running a train on the entire Avenger's line up.



True, Hyperion has replicated it, but tbf, Thor like usual was holding back. As shown here, he drops another -I think more powerful- Hyperion with a throw (One that he also considers a love tap):
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/ThrowKnocksDownHyperion.jpg

Even a berserk Thing has shrugged off a Mjolnir throw because Thor was afraid that if he threw it with sufficient force, he'd kill him or whatever.

Like I said, Thor holds back a lot.

Pretty much.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
It should be noted that while Nefaria was insanely durable, the only time he actually bounced Mjolnir off of his chest was on the cover.

I'm sure he could, but Thor arrived just as he finished running a train on the entire Avenger's line up.



True, Hyperion has replicated it, but tbf, Thor like usual was holding back. As shown here, he drops another -I think more powerful- Hyperion with a throw (One that he also considers a love tap):
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/ThrowKnocksDownHyperion.jpg

Even a berserk Thing has shrugged off a Mjolnir throw because Thor was afraid that if he threw it with sufficient force, he'd kill him or whatever.

Like I said, Thor holds back a lot. I concede that this happens. Sure. But, is that supposed to be a fact that should be factored into every Thor battle then? Or, would it have to be stated somewhere that he held back? Just asking.

Second, wouldn't it be more logical to assume that, although he might hold back against the likes of Hyperion and the Thing, even subconsciously, he would be less likely to be holding back against an obvious villain like Nefaria, whom, as you stated, had just beat on Thor's pals severely?

And, although I understand the point you guys are trying to make about other characters withstanding a hammer strike from Thor, I do not remember too many instances where they just casually reach up and palm it in mid swing, while conversing. And, without any type of shield or barrier.
Just through physical strength and durability and that's all.

Originally posted by Horrificus
I concede that this happens. Sure. But, is that supposed to be a fact that should be factored into every Thor battle then? Or, would it have to be stated somewhere that he held back? Just asking.

Second, wouldn't it be more logical to assume that, although he might hold back against the likes of Hyperion and the Thing, even subconsciously, he would be less likely to be holding back against an obvious villain like Nefaria, whom, as you stated, had just beat on Thor's pals severely?

And, although I understand the point you guys are trying to make about other characters withstanding a hammer strike from Thor, I do not remember too many instances where they just casually reach up and palm it in mid swing, while conversing. And, without any type of shield or barrier.
Just through physical strength and durability and that's all.

While it's true, Thor generally holds back, you misunderstood me, I was pointing out that Nefaria bouncing Mjolnir off of his chest never actually happened, it only appeared on the cover unless Busiek tried to retcon it.

Like I said, Nefaria could do it sure, but Thor saw him trounce the Avengers and wasn't going to be hitting him with love taps.

Yea, palming Mjolnir like that is an awesome showing of strength. He was created to be stronger than Thor/Hulk, at least generally.

Originally posted by Horrificus
Ok. I guess I have to start digging into Wonder Man scans.
If we got paid for all the work we do in these forums, I think we would be a wealthy bunch of comic book nerds.

For the record, if Wendigo and Bi-Beast hadn't been completely ruined in newer showings, in an attempt to make Hulk and other characters look good, they would still rank as some top-tier opponents.
They have been turned into fodder.


Look up Avengers Annual 16. Hyperion vs Wonderman. It shows the gap between Wonderman, and the true big boys.

damn, some serious underrating of ironman. i'd give him 10/10 against bi-beast, for certain. wendigo is different, and variable. some simon would beat, some maybe not, but he would do well against all of them. he scored a ko vs abomination, has wrecked ULTRON, has stalemated hercules, had thor w/o hammer on the ropes, has punked goliath numerous times, etc. he is not as strong as thor, but he's the tier below and is pretty damn close. yeah, simon is being seriously underestimated.

Originally posted by leonidas
damn, some serious underrating of ironman. i'd give him 10/10 against bi-beast, for certain. wendigo is different, and variable. some simon would beat, some maybe not, but he would do well against all of them. he scored a ko vs abomination, has wrecked ULTRON, has stalemated hercules, had thor w/o hammer on the ropes, has punked goliath numerous times, etc. he is not as strong as thor, but he's the tier below and is pretty damn close. yeah, simon is being seriously underestimated.

Was the Abomination jobbing as he did so often to everyone else? Ironman should beat Bi-Beast 10/10 and you use the word underrate? Thor struggled against Bi-Beast, and Ironman wasn't really on or near Thor's level. Ironman Ko'd the Hulk once, and every other time that they fought he ate the bottom of foot. What Ultron did he wreck? Not the one that nearly annihilated the West Coast Avengers lineup that he was also part of. Never claimed that Simon was weak, but he was also never placed in the class 100 tier in any comic power listing, except for here on KMC. Simon as I stated, is that guy that isn't weak, but will never quite reach the big boys when they cut loose. This was evident when Femtron hit the scene, and Simon was flagged off as not being capable of stepping up to this kind of challenge.

Hercules got worked by the Masters of Evil, whereas Thor put them under foot fairly easily. Comparing Simon to the Hulk is a bad idea, when you consider that the Hulk while dying, was taking on Herc, Ironman, Namor, Doc Samson, and Wonderman himself. Seriously read Avengers Annual 16, and see the difference and, what separates Simon from the big boys.

believe the count was intended to b stronger than supes

hulk is hulk

this match isn't hard to say a winner

Originally posted by Stoic
Was the Abomination jobbing as he did so often to everyone else? Ironman should beat Bi-Beast 10/10 and you use the word underrate? Thor struggled against Bi-Beast, and Ironman wasn't really on or near Thor's level. Ironman Ko'd the Hulk once, and every other time that they fought he ate the bottom of foot. What Ultron did he wreck? Not the one that nearly annihilated the West Coast Avengers lineup that he was also part of. Never claimed that Simon was weak, but he was also never placed in the class 100 tier in any comic power listing, except for here on KMC. Simon as I stated, is that guy that isn't weak, but will never quite reach the big boys when they cut loose. This was evident when Femtron hit the scene, and Simon was flagged off as not being capable of stepping up to this kind of challenge.

Hercules got worked by the Master of Evil, whereas Thor put them under foot fairly easily. Comparing Simon to the Hulk is a bad idea, when you consider that the Hulk while dying, was taking on Herc, Ironman, Namor, Doc Samson, and Wonderman himself. Seriously read Avengers Annual 16, and see the difference in what separates Simon from the big boys.

simon has worked ironman as well. thor struggled against simon. not sure which ultron, but any ultron is a beast. he is defintely cl100, not sure how you could contend that, and no, abom wasn't jobbing.....

herc who got worked by masters of evil was drugged and was STILL demolishing them until goliath attacked him from behind.

that hulk was bannerless and took it to everyone. that was the strongest hulk up until recent hulk changes. and i've read that annual but one showing doesn't define a character. hype himself has good and poor showings. seems like some lowballing happening here......

Originally posted by leonidas
simon has worked ironman as well. thor struggled against simon. not sure which ultron, but any ultron is a beast. he is defintely cl100, not sure how you could contend that, and no, abom wasn't jobbing.....

herc who got worked by masters of evil was drugged and was STILL demolishing them until goliath attacked him from behind.

that hulk was bannerless and took it to everyone. that was the strongest hulk up until recent hulk changes. and i've read that annual but one showing doesn't define a character. hype himself has good and poor showings. seems like some lowballing happening here......

With context being considered for the Ironman KO of the Hulk of course. Ironman overcharged the MK1 (or was it MK2?) to KO the Hulk, he never did that in his fight with Simon, nor would he unless Simon was deemed to be as large a threat as the Hulk was at that time.

Simon may be a class 100, but he isn't on the same level of class 100 as Thor, Hulk, Hercules, Sentry, Blue Marvel.... the list goes on and on. I never said that Simon was not strong, but he simply would not beat the big boys if they went all out, while he went all out as well. he was never meant to be that powerful.

Simon was never a match for Ultron on his own, while the Hulk crushed his frame with one strong hit, and that was primary adamantium Ultron that was damaged to the point of being rendered physically useless. This was also a weaker Hulk than the mindless one.

When Hyperion defeated Simon, it was Marvel's stance on how a battle would go if these two fought. look at the way that Gladiator dominated Simon. Thor defeated Gladiator. This is all that I am saying. Against the higher class 100's Simon gets worked. Am I really low-balling Simon, or just telling the truth about his past performances against mid to high class 100's? The scan of Nefaria no selling Simon's punches should lend power to my argument, as it is a prime example.

Originally posted by Stoic


Simon was never a match for Ultron on his own, while the Hulk crushed his frame with one strong hit, and that was primary adamantium Ultron that was damaged to the point of being rendered physically useless. West Coast Avengers vol 2 #7- Wonder Man grabs the head of Ultron 11 and shakes it so hard, it destroys him internally. Nobody else was able to do that.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/sifu1/CrushingUltron.jpg

In Avengers: Children's Crusade #3, Captain America describes Wonder Man as having "Sentry-level" strength. (I think that is a decent source.)

Also, in a fight with Namor, Namor says that WM is almost as strong as Thor. And, WM ends up knocking Namor out cold.

The truth is Wonderman after the 70's has never been the big cowardly gun he was then consistently. In Marvel presents he shreds Iron Man for the love of the Enchatress. He has defeated high ends, Avengers annual 16 like many 80's annuals suffers from being shit, e.g. Surfer V Korvac.... It really shouldn't be canon. If I remember rightly Iron Man is still referring to the armour as transistor powered in that issue. The beating of Abomination is excellent. love the knee to the head!

Originally posted by WangWins
transistor powered Ha! Yup. And this was cutting edge science talk at the time too.

Originally posted by Stoic
With context being considered for the Ironman KO of the Hulk of course. Ironman overcharged the MK1 (or was it MK2?) to KO the Hulk, he never did that in his fight with Simon, nor would he unless Simon was deemed to be as large a threat as the Hulk was at that time.

Simon may be a class 100, but he isn't on the same level of class 100 as Thor, Hulk, Hercules, Sentry, Blue Marvel.... the list goes on and on. I never said that Simon was not strong, but he simply would not beat the big boys if they went all out, while he went all out as well. he was never meant to be that powerful.

Simon was never a match for Ultron on his own, while the Hulk crushed his frame with one strong hit, and that was primary adamantium Ultron that was damaged to the point of being rendered physically useless. This was also a weaker Hulk than the mindless one.

When Hyperion defeated Simon, it was Marvel's stance on how a battle would go if these two fought. look at the way that Gladiator dominated Simon. Thor defeated Gladiator. This is all that I am saying. Against the higher class 100's Simon gets worked. Am I really low-balling Simon, or just telling the truth about his past performances against mid to high class 100's? The scan of Nefaria no selling Simon's punches should lend power to my argument, as it is a prime example.

hulk was stunned by an exploding jet when he overloaded that old armor to score that ko. never would have happened had hulk been fresh. a charged IM has handled thor in that old armor, so saying a maxed IM could hang with and maybe score a win over wm is NOT a poor showing. IM has defeated nearly everyone at one point or other.

h brought up the ko'ing of namor which i neglected.

i agree with you (and this is the second time in as many weeks i've found myself defending wm, a character i've never even really liked) in that he's not in the same tier as sentry and thor or hulk, but he is very close and can hang with all of them for extended periods of time and very very rarely gets 'worked'. you seem to put a lot into that hyperion fight. i put a lot in the thor fight. and beating namor. and ko'ing abom. and taking out ultron 1on1. look at the way he was depicted as hollywood in gotg for another take on what he was thought of. hollywood slugged it out for a time with dormammu.

i say lowballing because you're putting a lot of stock in one showing, and (seemingly) ignoring his other showings. and the good showings (vs prof hulk, thor, herc, namor, abom, ultron, etc...) outweigh the lesser ones. completely no-selling his punches was a very impressive feat imo, one no other herald-leveler could accomplish except maybe that most recent version of hulk perhaps.

anyway, not sure why we're on the topic, but......yeah.

Can I ask which battle WM had with Hyperion you guys are talking about? I only know of one and it was a "What if?".
Thanks.

he's talking about a late 80's avengers annual where hype is part of grandmaster's group of undead heroes. his team squares off against the avengers and one of the matches is hype vs wm. they stalemate for a bit, then hype smashes him and proceeds to use his speed to blitz wm straight through the planet and into the sun where they both die. very odd. anyway, several of the heroes died against their opponents--it was just that type of arc because death meant nothing. there's also the fact that hype at one time gave thor hell. a great showing? not at all. but losing to that evil version of hyperion in an arc where many of the heroes died isn't exactly awful.

in that arc thor actually battled skurge, someone else simon has had the better of....

Originally posted by leonidas
hulk was stunned by an exploding jet when he overloaded that old armor to score that ko. never would have happened had hulk been fresh. a charged IM has handled thor in that old armor, so saying a maxed IM could hang with and maybe score a win over wm is NOT a poor showing. IM has defeated nearly everyone at one point or other.

h brought up the ko'ing of namor which i neglected.

i agree with you (and this is the second time in as many weeks i've found myself defending wm, a character i've never even really liked) in that he's not in the same tier as sentry and thor or hulk, but he is very close and can hang with all of them for extended periods of time and very very rarely gets 'worked'. you seem to put a lot into that hyperion fight. i put a lot in the thor fight. and beating namor. and ko'ing abom. and taking out ultron 1on1. look at the way he was depicted as hollywood in gotg for another take on what he was thought of. hollywood slugged it out for a time with dormammu.

i say lowballing because you're putting a lot of stock in one showing, and (seemingly) ignoring his other showings. and the good showings (vs prof hulk, thor, herc, namor, abom, ultron, etc...) outweigh the lesser ones. completely no-selling his punches was a very impressive feat imo, one no other herald-leveler could accomplish except maybe that most recent version of hulk perhaps.

anyway, not sure why we're on the topic, but......yeah.


The point of the topic is Nefaria no selling Wonder Man's punch to the gut. I mentioned the Hulk no selling hits from Wendigo, Bi-Beast, and Arm'Chedon, which is more impressive than Nefaria taking a gut shot from Simon like it was nothing.

At the time that Wonder Man punched Nefaria he was categorized by Marvel as being a class 95. Wendigo, and Bi-Beast at that same period in time were classified class 100's. What we saw during Heart of the Monster, was Marvel showing us how much more powerful the Hulk was since his days of wrestling for entire issues with those guys. Adding in Arm'Cheddon broke the bank.

My point to the comparison was to show the Hulk's superior power in comparison to Nefaria's feat. I also stated that if anyone want's to compare Nefaria's feats with the Hulk, that I wished them good luck in proving that Nefaria is superior, as I don't believe that he is anywhere near. Nefaria lifted a skyscraper, the Hulk kept a planet from exploding. There is a large gap in feats.

Originally posted by Stoic
The point of the topic is Nefaria no selling Wonder Man's punch to the gut. I mentioned the Hulk no selling hits from Wendigo, Bi-Beast, and Arm'Chedon, which is more impressive than Nefaria taking a gut shot from Simon like it was nothing.

At the time that Wonder Man punched Nefaria he was categorized by Marvel as being a class 95. Wendigo, and Bi-Beast at that same period in time were classified class 100's. What we saw during Heart of the Monster, was Marvel showing us how much more powerful the Hulk was since his days of wrestling for entire issues with those guys. Adding in Arm'Cheddon broke the bank.

My point to the comparison was to show the Hulk's superior power in comparison to Nefaria's feat. I also stated that if anyone want's to compare Nefaria's feats with the Hulk, that I wished them good luck in proving that Nefaria is superior, as I don't believe that he is anywhere near. Nefaria lifted a skyscraper, the Hulk kept a planet from exploding. There is a large gap in feats.

meh, i'm not really gonna persue this much more. i get what you're saying but like i said, i don't see anyone in the heralds no-selling those shots except hulk. the recent hulk is also>>simon, so the comparison is sort of moot, though i doubt he'd no sell simon like that.

thor was also listed at cl95 at that time i think, or had only recently been updated to cl100, sooo.....

i don't think anyone is saying cn would beat the hulk as shown in hotm. most (including me) think he would beat classic, savge/incredible though.

we'll simply disagree with regards to the impressiveness of cn feat vs IM (thor's hammer also bounced off the chest of hyperion one time, but i doubt anyone would say hype>cn) and the relative strengths of bi-beast and wendigo compared to simon. my opinion is based on the full body of simon's work. bi-beast in particular has very few feats to support his being able to take simon. wendigo, is, as i said, something different.

1. Nefaria. Savage Hulk lacks the intelligence to win
2. PIS Hulk wins here. His footsteps were tearing the entire Eastern seaboard apart.

Originally posted by leonidas
meh, i'm not really gonna persue this much more. i get what you're saying but like i said, i don't see anyone in the heralds no-selling those shots except hulk.

In Ending Battle, Superman essentially nosold shots from Bizarro Superman and Mongul? ^_^;

Besides, there was a wish factor in effect. Shouldn't that make Worldbreakers feats suspect? (Like how he wanted Betty not to be killed by him, so ended up fighting Red Shulk forever..)

If memory serves me correct, Count Nefaria can manipulate all forms of radiation in which he can siphon off their energy and even control them like puppets, like he did too Atlas and Wonder Man.

Isn't that only ionic energy?

Originally posted by cdtm
Isn't that only ionic energy?

Yes, which leads to the Wonderman no sell gut punch even more suspect.

Originally posted by cdtm
In Ending Battle, Superman essentially nosold shots from Bizarro Superman and Mongul? ^_^;

Besides, there was a wish factor in effect. Shouldn't that make Worldbreakers feats suspect? (Like how he wanted Betty not to be killed by him, so ended up fighting Red Shulk forever..)

The wish doesnt make it suspect at all, since it was in no way alluded to that he was amped (if thats what u are implying) unlike in the case of betty were it was explicitly mentioned. Plus it would go against the theme of the entire story and thereby clear intentions of the author which was to show hulks full unhindered strength.

Originally posted by cdtm
Isn't that only ionic energy?
no in his bio other radiation also!

Originally posted by the Darkone
no in his bio other radiation also!


This is what his bio states.

Powers
When his body is fully charged with ionic energy, Nefaria possesses tremendous, nearly immeasurable strength and durability, high-level superhuman speed, the power of flight, and the ability to fire powerful laser beams from his eyes. In recent times, he has also proven capable of forming and manipulating crude ionic energy constructs, such as an energy strand used to lasso an opponent. If Nefaria's bodily ionic energy reserves dwindle too low, his powers start to fade and his body begins to wither and age rapidly. Nefaria periodically replenishes his energies by draining power from outside sources of ionic energy, often draining other ionic-powered super-beings like himself. If Nefaria drains too much energy too quickly, his victim will die. Like other ionic super-beings such as Atlas and Wonder Man, Nefaria has apparently developed astounding regenerative powers, enabling him to heal himself from a seemingly deceased state or even reintegrate his bodily matter after exploding.

More on Marvel.com: http://marvel.com/universe/Count_Nefaria#ixzz1kWBZ1O9z

Originally posted by Stoic
Yes, which leads to the Wonderman no sell gut punch even more suspect. At the time of Wonder Man punching Nefaria, Nefaria had not changed into an Ionic Vampire yet.

The Ionic energy from Power Man, Living Laser and Whirlwind is getting transferred to the Count by the machine created by Professor Sturdy.

They received a treatment specifically for this purpose.

Originally posted by Horrificus
At the time of Wonder Man punching Nefaria, Nefaria had not changed into an Ionic Vampire yet.

The Ionic energy from Power Man, Living Laser and Whirlwind is getting transferred to the Count by the machine created by Professor Sturdy.

They received a treatment specifically for this purpose.

But what does that have to do with him having the ability to siphon off gamma rays, or other forms of energy outside of the ionic spectrum?

Originally posted by Stoic
But what does that have to do with him having the ability to siphon off gamma rays, or other forms of energy outside of the ionic spectrum? Nothing. As a matter of fact, I don't agree with him being able to do THAT.

From what I have read, he dabbles, strictly in Ionic energy.

I was just stating that his clash with Wonder Man was at a point before he had the ability to siphon from anybody but the 3 characters that were specifically targeted.

I never saw Nefaria manipulating anything besides Ionic power.

Originally posted by Horrificus
Nothing. As a matter of fact, I don't agree with him being able to do THAT.

From what I have read, he dabbles, strictly in Ionic energy.

I was just stating that his clash with Wonder Man was at a point before he had the ability to siphon from anybody but the 3 characters that were specifically targeted.

I never saw Nefaria manipulating anything besides Ionic power.

Sorry for taking so long to reply, really busy. I can't recall the minor details of Nefaria's first appearances as a super type, so if you say that he did not siphon ion powered characters I believe you. This however does not mean that he could not drain them right? It's kind of strange, and I need to go back and check those Avengers issues, but I faintly recall there being some talk about him being able to siphon, even way back then. Gotta check it out though.

Originally posted by Stoic
Sorry for taking so long to reply, really busy. I can't recall the minor details of Nefaria's first appearances as a super type, so if you say that he did not siphon ion powered characters I believe you. This however does not mean that he could not drain them right? It's kind of strange, and I need to go back and check those Avengers issues, but I faintly recall there being some talk about him being able to siphon, even way back then. Gotta check it out though. Well, originally, the costume he wore was part of the mechanism.
Sturdy was one of the orignial team, with Zemo, that created Wonder man. So, he knew how to work with Ionic energy I guess.
Nefaria and Professor Sturdy got a hold of power man, living laser and whirlwind. Nefaria tricked them into thinking they were simply getting amp'd. In reality, the treatment amp's them, but also set them up so his machine could drain them and transfer the energy.
He didn't even want to wear the costume, but he had to, otherwise he couldn't receive the power from Sturdy's machine.

Originally posted by Horrificus
Well, originally, the costume he wore was part of the mechanism.
Sturdy was one of the orignial team, with Zemo, that created Wonder man. So, he knew how to work with Ionic energy I guess.
Nefaria and Professor Sturdy got a hold of power man, living laser and whirlwind. Nefaria tricked them into thinking they were simply getting amp'd. In reality, the treatment amp's them, but also set them up so his machine could drain them and transfer the energy.
He didn't even want to wear the costume, but he had to, otherwise he couldn't receive the power from Sturdy's machine.


Yeah I remember this, and in turn Nefaria is imbued with power in the multiples of those that were tricked into participating by a factor of I seem to forget... was it 50x?

Originally posted by Stoic
Yeah I remember this, and in turn Nefaria is imbued with power in the multiples of those that were tricked into participating by a factor of I seem to forget... was it 50x? Actually, over and over they say one hundred fold.
One Hundred times Power man, Living Laser and Whirlwind.

Originally posted by Horrificus
Actually, over and over they say one hundred fold.
One Hundred times Power man, Living Laser and Whirlwind.

Why did they pick one of the slowest speedsters?

100 times speed demons speed would mean something, but 100 times Whirlwind still makes Nefaria a relatively mediocre speedster..

Originally posted by Horrificus
Actually, over and over they say one hundred fold.
One Hundred times Power man, Living Laser and Whirlwind.

yeah, 100x it was and you're right about his being unable to absorb or siphon ionic energy back then. i never liked that change at all, tbh.

daken vs count

Originally posted by Horrificus
Actually, over and over they say one hundred fold.
One Hundred times Power man, Living Laser and Whirlwind.

The implications of Nefaria while being a powerhouse at those x100 levels, would most likely mean that the Hulk of HOTM, would grab him by his neck, and break it like a twig. Wendigo, and Bi-Beast were 1000x their base levels, and the Hulk was playing with them. This was even before he got to the Dark Dimension, and let loose.

Thor's normally >>> x1,000 more powerful then Wendigo and Bi Beast, but he holds back a lot.

Originally posted by cdtm
Thor's normally >>> x1,000 more powerful then Wendigo and Bi Beast, but he holds back a lot.


Why don't you read how well Thor did against Bi-Beast at normal base levels and then make that claim.

Originally posted by Stoic
Why don't you read how well Thor did against Bi-Beast at normal base levels and then make that claim.

He holds back a LOT.

Originally posted by cdtm
He holds back a LOT.

What does that have to do with Nefaria. He must have been holding back against Tutinax as well then? He didn't look like he was holding back against Bi-Beast by the way.

Originally posted by Stoic
Why don't you read how well Thor did against Bi-Beast at normal base levels and then make that claim. They weren't powered up by 1000 times at that point in time, and Thor's KO'ed Bi-Beast twice.

Thor would run a train on Bi-Beast if he was really pissed, a 1000 times stronger or not.

As a matter of fact, he did just that back in the day against Ulik.

Thor stops holding back and smashes Bi-Beast. The second fight he stomps him again without seeming mad at all.
Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist
Thor vs Bi-Beast
They fight for a bit, and then Thor takes him out. Pretty good, since I don't remember Hulk ever putting down BB (alone), let alone this bad.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Thor/Thor_1982_315_17.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Thor/Thor_1982_315_18.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Thor/Thor_1982_315_19.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Thor/Thor_1982_315_20.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Thor/Thor_1982_315_21.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Thor/Thor_1982_315_22.jpg

---

Iron Man/Thor vs Man-Beast/Bi-Beast
Thor starts off with MB, and then they trade off, and Thor takes out BB again. Then Thor and IM take down MB when he's trying to escape in his ship.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Thor/Thor_1982_316_17.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Thor/Thor_1982_316_18.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Thor/Thor_1982_316_19.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Thor/Thor_1982_316_20.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Thor/Thor_1982_316_21.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Thor/Thor_1982_316_22.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Thor/Thor_1982_316_23.jpg

Thor got overpowered twice in the first fight. The second fight was a good showing for Thor (even though he stated he used the full fury of his attack)...he actually koed by Bi-Beast, something that Savage Hulk has never done. Bi-Beast was stomping Thor in the first fight though.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Thor would run a train on Bi-Beast if he was really pissed, a 1000 times stronger or not.

As a matter of fact, he did just that back in the day against Ulik.

No he wouldn't.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Thor would run a train on Bi-Beast if he was really pissed, a 1000 times stronger or not.

As a matter of fact, he did just that back in the day against Ulik. let's not get too cocky, rage.

hulk accidentally vaporized that nicca and the planet he was on trying to knock out someone else

Bi Beast no sold a punch from Thor. Lol.

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Thor/Thor_1982_315_18.jpg

Originally posted by carver9
Thor got overpowered twice in the first fight. The second fight was a good showing for Thor (even though he stated he used the full fury of his attack)...he actually koed by Bi-Beast, something that Savage Hulk has never done. Bi-Beast was stomping Thor in the first fight though. He was holding back the whole time, and as soon as he got serious he destroyed Bi-Beast.

Thor holding back is a common theme in comics. Hyperion is the best example of how bad his attacks can vary when he does so.

^He would. That was easy.

Originally posted by carver9
Thor got overpowered twice in the first fight. The second fight was a good showing for Thor (even though he stated he used the full fury of his attack)...he actually koed by Bi-Beast, something that Savage Hulk has never done. Bi-Beast was stomping Thor in the first fight though.

You mean the headlock? I'd say he was outfought not overpowered, that suggests physical inferiority. First fight ended with a knock out too by the way:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Thor/Thor_1982_315_22.jpg

Hasn't Savage Hulk beaten Bi-Beast? I'm pretty sure I remember Hulk beating him, but it was more recent.

Originally posted by carver9
No he wouldn't.

Probably would.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
He was holding back the whole time, and as soon as he got serious he destroyed Bi-Beast.

Thor holding back is a common theme in comics. Hyperion is the best example of how bad his attacks can vary when he does so.

Aaaaahhhh, gotcha. Ok, Thor allowed Bi Beast to over power him twice. Thor also stated he had to fight like Savage Hulk in order to drop Bi Beast...I guess he was lying since he was holding back. Thor also stated that Bi Beast is as strong as Savage Hulk, so that would give him another reason to hold back. Gotcha.

I like that type of argument. Let me do it. Hulk held back against Thor in all of their fights. Silver Surfer held back against Thor during blood and thunder. Wait, I can do better. Hulk held back against Zeus since he wasnt there to kill him. He allowed Zeus to beat on him since he is a hero. Hulk>>>Zeus.

Thanks Bieb..I'm done here.

oh boy....

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
You mean the headlock? I'd say he was outfought not overpowered, that suggests physical inferiority. First fight ended with a knock out too by the way:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Thor/Thor_1982_315_22.jpg

Hasn't Savage Hulk beaten Bi-Beast? I'm pretty sure I remember Hulk beating him, but it was more recent.



Probably would. I don't remember Savage Hulk ever knocking out Bi-Beast on his own outside of the recent Pak story. I might be missing something, but I doubt it.

He's beat him with others however. I believe it was in the 2001 Defenders series.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
He was holding back the whole time, and as soon as he got serious he destroyed Bi-Beast.

Thor holding back is a common theme in comics. Hyperion is the best example of how bad his attacks can vary when he does so.

Doug didn't write the most powerful Thor but it's true that even under him, there was a difference between a Thor without restraint and a regular one. IIRC, he was the one who had Air-Walker gain an edge over Thor only to be one shotted once he realized that he wasn't actually alive.

I don't think he was treating him lighting or anything (Bi-Beast was considered a rival to Hulk at the time) but he didn't cut loose until near the end and in both fights he ended it.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
You mean the headlock? I'd say he was outfought not overpowered, that suggests physical inferiority. First fight ended with a knock out too by the way:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Thor/Thor_1982_315_22.jpg

Hasn't Savage Hulk beaten Bi-Beast? I'm pretty sure I remember Hulk beating him, but it was more recent.



Probably would.

I said it was a great showing for Thor since Savage Hulk failed at koing Bi Beast but the thing about this is...Bi Beast was a challenge for Thor and was strong enough to contend with Thor and looking at those scans, he appeared to be a tad stronger than Thor (Thor was the better fighter though).

Are you referring to the fight Savage Hulk and Bi Beast had where Namor was assisting Hulk? When did Savage Hulk drop Bi Beast because that fight even ended in a stalemate.

He would DIE from an amped Bi Beast. Thor already compared Bi Beast strength to Savage Hulk strength in those scans. Bi Beast was insanely increased during the time they grew a 100 ft tall. That Bi Beast would completely annihilate Thor.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
I don't remember Savage Hulk ever knocking out Bi-Beast on his own outside of the recent Pak story. I might be missing something, but I doubt it.

He's beat him with others however. I believe it was in the 2001 Defenders series.

Maybe I'm just imagining it then. Either way, no skin off my back.

Originally posted by carver9
Aaaaahhhh, gotcha. Ok, Thor allowed Bi Beast to over power him twice. Thor also stated he had to fight like Savage Hulk in order to drop Bi Beast...I guess he was lying since he was holding back. Thor also stated that Bi Beast is as strong as Savage Hulk, so that would give him another reason to hold back. Gotcha.

I like that type of argument. Let me do it. Hulk held back against Thor in all of their fights. Silver Surfer held back against Thor during blood and thunder. Wait, I can do better. Hulk held back against Zeus since he wasnt there to kill him. He allowed Zeus to beat on him since he is a hero. Hulk>>>Zeus.

Thanks Bieb..I'm done here. Are you kidding here? Even in the second fight, which you just referenced a post ago Thor stated he didn't have to hold back anymore if Bi-Beast is an android. Which was the second fight between the two... in a book later.

Hell, even in the quote you just referenced Thor stated he was going to go savage on Bi-Beast and smash him repeatidly.

Jesus. It can't get anymore clear here. I don't even need to go into any detail here, seriously. Idiotic what you're trying to argue here.

Originally posted by carver9
He would DIE from an amped Bi Beast. Thor already compared Bi Beast strength to Savage Hulk strength in those scans. Bi Beast was insanely increased during the time they grew a 100 ft tall. That Bi Beast would completely annihilate Thor. Not if he never touched Thor. Which is why Hulk beat him, because he never let Bi-Beast lay a paw on him.

It also looks like Rage is going to have to post the amped Ulik fight too... (don't have it in photobucket)

This is the Ulik fight I mentioned before:
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/ThorvsUlik70.jpg
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/ThorvsUlik71.jpg
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/ThorvsUlik72.jpg
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/ThorvsUlik73.jpg
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/ThorvsUlik74.jpg
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/ThorvsUlik75.jpg
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/ThorvsUlik76.jpg

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Are you kidding here? Even in the second fight, which you just referenced a post ago Thor stated he didn't have to hold back anymore if Bi-Beast is an android. Which was the second fight between the two... in a book later.

Hell, even in the quote you just referenced Thor stated he was going to go savage on Bi-Beast and smash him repeatidly.

Jesus. It can't get anymore clear here. I don't even need to go into any detail here, seriously. Idiotic what you're trying to argue here.

That doesn't mean Thor allowed himself to get overpowered like that...that meant Thor didn't have to worry about pulling his punches.

The second fight...Bi Beast got worked by both, Ironman and Thor...good showing for both.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Not if he never touched Thor. Which is why Hulk beat him, because he never let Bi-Beast lay a paw on him.

It also looks like Rage is going to have to post the amped Ulik fight too... (don't have it in photobucket)

Just like Thor didn't let current 100 ft tall Mangog lay a paw on him...my bad, that didnt happen. Hulk clearly overpowered both and sent both of them flying out of orbit.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
This is the Ulik fight I mentioned before:
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/ThorvsUlik70.jpg
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/ThorvsUlik71.jpg
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/ThorvsUlik72.jpg
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/ThorvsUlik73.jpg
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/ThorvsUlik74.jpg
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/ThorvsUlik75.jpg
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/ThorvsUlik76.jpg

Post that Mangog fight.

Originally posted by carver9
I said it was a great showing for Thor since Savage Hulk failed at koing Bi Beast but the thing about this is...Bi Beast was a challenge for Thor and was strong enough to contend with Thor and looking at those scans, he appeared to be a tad stronger than Thor (Thor was the better fighter though).

Are you referring to the fight Savage Hulk and Bi Beast had where Namor was assisting Hulk? When did Savage Hulk drop Bi Beast because that fight even ended in a stalemate.

He would DIE from an amped Bi Beast. Thor already compared Bi Beast strength to Savage Hulk strength in those scans. Bi Beast was insanely increased during the time they grew a 100 ft tall. That Bi Beast would completely annihilate Thor.

Bi-Beast outfighting Thor briefly after the guards interfered isn't evidence of strength superiority. Especially since he had a tendency to show a lot of restraint.

Really? Then it must just be my imagination.

You're exaggerating, Thor can most definitely succeed against that Bi-Beast, especially if uses his head like Hulk did. One large lightning bolt would probably be all he needs.

Originally posted by carver9
That doesn't mean Thor allowed himself to get overpowered like that...that meant Thor didn't have to worry about pulling his punches.

The second fight...Bi Beast got worked by both, Ironman and Thor...good showing for both. Overpowered? Because Thor was fighting like an idiot. Who cares about overpowered when Thor can drop him in 1-2 hits?

Thor was holding back his hits, which is why he got put into that position. Had he not been holding back the whole time, the fight would have been over in a page and Bi-Beast wouldn't have landed a hit.

It's not the first time Thor's been knocked around by someone he can annihilate. Doesn't prove much.

Originally posted by carver9
Post that Mangog fight.

Here you go:
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/Mangogdefeated1.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/Mangogdefeated2.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/Mangogdefeated3.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/Mangogdefeated4.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/Mangogdefeated5.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/Mangogdefeated6.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/Mangogdefeated7.jpg

Another great example of Thor cutting loose.

Originally posted by carver9
Just like Thor didn't let current 100 ft tall Mangog lay a paw on him...my bad, that didnt happen. Hulk clearly overpowered both and sent both of them flying out of orbit. I want to see this fight against a 100 foot tall Mangog.

The same Mangog, who at 10-12 feet had the reflexes to swat Mjolnir away when it's thrown at his back.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
I want to see this fight against a 100 foot tall Mangog.

The same Mangog, who at 10-12 feet had the reflexes to swat Mjolnir away when it's thrown at his back.

Mangog's actually surprisingly fast. At one point when he was beating on Thor, his punches were so fast that even the Recorder lost track.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Bi-Beast outfighting Thor briefly after the guards interfered isn't evidence of strength superiority. Especially since he had a tendency to show a lot of restraint.

Really? Then it must just be my imagination.

You're exaggerating, Thor can most definitely succeed against that Bi-Beast, especially if uses his head like Hulk did. One large lightning bolt would probably be all he needs.

Thor was already in a choke hold before the guards even showed up.

I know Thor can beat Bi Beast but in a contest of strength, Bi Beast appeared stronger.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Overpowered? Because Thor was fighting like an idiot. Who cares about overpowered when Thor can drop him in 1-2 hits?

Thor was holding back his hits, which is why he got put into that position. Had he not been holding back the whole time, the fight would have been over in a page and Bi-Beast wouldn't have landed a hit.

It's not the first time Thor's been knocked around by someone he can annihilate. Doesn't prove much.

This scan doesnt make it appear as if it was 1 or 2 hits...

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Thor/Thor_1982_315_22.jpg

The rest of the fight happened off panel.

So Thor is currently "letting" an eternal beat the hell out of him? Is this what you are telling me?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Here you go:
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/Mangogdefeated1.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/Mangogdefeated2.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/Mangogdefeated3.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/Mangogdefeated4.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/Mangogdefeated5.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/Mangogdefeated6.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/Mangogdefeated7.jpg

Another great example of Thor cutting loose.

I'm not talking about this fight...I'm talking about the fight where Wolverine stabbed Mangog in the arm. You know what fight I am talking about.

Originally posted by carver9
Thor was already in a choke hold before the guards even showed up.

I know Thor can beat Bi Beast bit in a contest of strength, Bi Beast appeared stronger.

Fair enough, they just entered the room.

I won't really argue if you think Bi-Beast came out looking stronger for the majority of the first fight but he was promptly but down when Thor cut loose. I'd wager, even without Mjolnir he would have gained the advantage in the end, Thor loves his comebacks.

Originally posted by carver9
I'm not talking about this fight...I'm talking about the fight where Wolverine stabbed Mangog in the arm. You know what fight I am talking about.

Oh, you're not talking about Thor holding back. Here you go:
http://i709.photobucket.com/albums/ww99/Strangerinthenight/tstrike_05_07.jpg
http://i709.photobucket.com/albums/ww99/Strangerinthenight/tstrike_05_08.jpg
http://i709.photobucket.com/albums/ww99/Strangerinthenight/tstrike_05_09.jpg
http://i709.photobucket.com/albums/ww99/Strangerinthenight/tstrike_05_10.jpg
http://i709.photobucket.com/albums/ww99/Strangerinthenight/tstrike_05_11.jpg
http://i709.photobucket.com/albums/ww99/Strangerinthenight/tstrike_05_12.jpg
http://i709.photobucket.com/albums/ww99/Strangerinthenight/tstrike_05_13.jpg

I'm not really sure what this -poorly written- fight is supposed to prove.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Fair enough, they just entered the room.

I won't really argue if you think Bi-Beast came out looking stronger for the majority of the first fight but he was promptly but down when Thor cut loose. I'd wager, even without Mjolnir he would have gained the advantage in the end, Thor loves his comebacks.

I agree.

Now here is the big question Rage.

Why did Thor allow Bi Beast to fling him like this when they were in arm lock if Thor was stronger?

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Thor/Thor_1982_315_20.jpg

He was already in a choke hold before this and claimed that he was as strong as Savage Hulk. Why didn't he just overpower Bi Beast in that scan?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Mangog's actually surprisingly fast. At one point when he was beating on Thor, his punches were so fast that even the Recorder lost track. Exactly.

Originally posted by carver9
This scan doesnt make it appear as if it was 1 or 2 hits...

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Thor/Thor_1982_315_22.jpg

The rest of the fight happened off panel.

So Thor is currently "letting" an eternal beat the hell out of him? Is this what you are telling me? He knocks him out in one full hit when he stops holding back in the next issue.

That one's just brutal though.

Everyone has low showings Carver. No one knows what the hells going on in that series. Especially when Thor's KO'ed Hero with his fists.

For a guy's who's fought evenly for a while, or beaten Mephisto, Odin, Shiva, Horus, Seth, Pluto, Zeus, Bor, Surtur, Buri, Ymir, Hela, Perrikus, Mangog, and Thanos, you'd think he'd stop being questioned when he holds back against lesser beings.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Exactly.

He knocks him out in one full hit when he stops holding back in the next issue.

That one's just brutal though.

Everyone has low showings Carver. No one knows what the hells going on in that series. Especially when Thor's KO'ed Hero with his fists.

For a guy's who's fought evenly for a while, or beaten Mephisto, Odin, Shiva, Horus, Seth, Pluto, Zeus, Bor, Surtur, Ymir, Hela, Perrikus, Mangog, and Thanos, you'd think he'd stop being questioned when he holds back against lesser beings.

Lol...almost every one of those fights had circumstances/amps involved. Even outside of these fts, Thor is a monster and I am not denying that. I would give Thor the nod against Bi Beast any day of the week because he is just that good but that doesn't mean Bi Beast wouldn't give him a run for his money.

Originally posted by carver9
Lol...almost every one of those fights had circumstances/amps involved. Even outside of these fts, Thor is a monster and I am not denying that. I would give Thor the nod against Bi Beast any day of the week because he is just that good but that doesn't mean Bi Beast wouldn't give him a run for his money. Only the Bor fight, only the Bor fight.

I think it's pretty obvious that Thor would wipe the floor with Bi-Beast, I'm just wondering why it's being held as some sort of a low feat for you.

Originally posted by carver9
Now here is the big question Rage.

Why did Thor allow Bi Beast to fling him like this when they were in arm lock if Thor was stronger?

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Thor/Thor_1982_315_20.jpg

He was already in a choke hold before this and claimed that he was as strong as Savage Hulk. Why didn't he just overpower Bi Beast in that scan?

The same reason Thor goes from getting beat up to owning an opponent.

Maybe Bi-Beast is stronger than a general threat Thor, I don't really care tbh, when he got mad, we saw Thor end it twice. Not sure why this is difficult.

Originally posted by carver9
Lol...almost every one of those fights had circumstances/amps involved.

Hold up, please indicate which of the fights Bran listed had circumstances or amps involved please.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Only the Bor fight, only the Bor fight.

I think it's pretty obvious that Thor would wipe the floor with Bi-Beast, I'm just wondering why it's being held as some sort of a low feat for you.

It's not a low ft because I agree...Thor would beat Bi Beast but Bi Beast would give him a run for his money just like he already did. I would give Thor the majority against almost anyone in his tier but that doesn't mean that he just walk through everyone ...especially when on panel, that isn't what happened. Thor had to beat on BB with his hammer. His initial attack with his fist didn't even budge Bi Beast.

Originally posted by carver9
It's not a low ft because I agree...Thor would beat Bi Beast but Bi Beast would give him a run for his money just like he already did. I would give Thor the majority against almost anyone in his tier but that doesn't mean that he just walk through everyone ...especially when on panel, that isn't what happened. Thor had to beat on BB with his hammer. His initial attack with his fist didn't even budge Bi Beast. Still doing it hey?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Hold up, please indicate which of the fights Bran listed had circumstances or amps involved please.

I relooked and I was wrong...no circumstances were involved with those fights. When I seen Thanos, I thought he was referring to the Thanosi Thor fought where he received the shield and other artifacts to aid him in that fight.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Still doing it hey?

No. I'm just letting you know how tuff Bi Beast is. He has shown to be equal in strength to Savage Hulk and he has shown that he can hang with top tiers for an extended amount of time.

Originally posted by carver9
I relooked and I was wrong...no circumstances were involved with those fights. When I seen Thanos, I thought he was referring to the Thanosi Thor fought where he received the shield and other artifacts to aid him in that fight.

You said almost all of the fights involved circumstances/amps.....but okay, Originally posted by carver9
It's not a low ft because I agree...Thor would beat Bi Beast but Bi Beast would give him a run for his money just like he already did. I would give Thor the majority against almost anyone in his tier but that doesn't mean that he just walk through everyone ...especially when on panel, that isn't what happened. Thor had to beat on BB with his hammer. His initial attack with his fist didn't even budge Bi Beast.

Common.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
You said almost all of the fights involved circumstances/amps.....but okay, whatever.

I was wrong on that part.

Originally posted by carver9
No. I'm just letting you know how tuff Bi Beast is. He has shown to be equal in strength to Savage Hulk and he has shown that he can hang with top tiers for an extended amount of time. I realize, and Thor getting serious absolutely molly whopped him. Twice.

Imagine if that was angry swearing Fraction Thor from when he fought Surfer. Bi-Beast would not be alive in the second page.

Originally posted by carver9
I was wrong...

Profiled.

Originally posted by carver9
I was wrong on that part.

Bravo.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
I realize, and Thor getting serious absolutely molly whopped him. Twice.

Imagine if that was angry swearing Fraction Thor from when he fought Surfer. Bi-Beast would not be alive in the second page.

Yea, not really sure why Fraction's Thor is always so angry. It seems that unless you're at the very top of the Herald food chain (Surfer etc.) or higher, you're pretty much screwed against that Thor if the battle isn't brief.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Profiled.

I take it back. I wasn't wrong. Typo.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
I realize, and Thor getting serious absolutely molly whopped him. Twice.

Imagine if that was angry swearing Fraction Thor from when he fought Surfer. Bi-Beast would not be alive in the second page.

Bi Beast did better than Surfer did against Thor during blood and thunder.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Yea, not really sure why Fraction's Thor is always so angry. It seems that unless you're at the very top of the Herald food chain (Surfer etc.) or higher, you're pretty much screwed against that Thor if the battle isn't brief. Angry Fraction Thor via matching a Hulk who could destroy primary admantium, and destroy an Asgardian hammer. Although the comments and the passing out made no sense, but still. It was a pretty decent feat in retrospect.

Fraction Thor is the highest written Thor since the 80's

Originally posted by carver9
I take it back. I wasn't wrong. Typo.

Too late.

Originally posted by carver9
Bi Beast did better than Surfer did against Thor during blood and thunder. Blood and Thunder Thor stomped Pluto...

Blood and Thunder Thor was always pissed, and would have taken down Bi-Beast in a single hit. No kidding.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Angry Fraction Thor via matching a Hulk who could destroy primary admantium, and destroy an Asgardian hammer. Although the comments and the passing out made no sense, but still. It was a pretty decent feat in retrospect.

Fraction Thor is the highest written Thor since the 80's

Thor wasn't passed out but he was pretty much exhausted. Not unreasonable, after all the other shit, trading that final blow with Nul and overpowering him was too much.

He also still had the World Tree wound so he couldn't have been at a 100%, whether it had stabilized or not (Some argue he was placating Loki which I admit would make sense).

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Thor wasn't passed out but he was pretty much exhausted. Not unreasonable, after all the other shit, colliding with Nul and overpowering him was too much.

He also still had the World Tree wound so he couldn't have been at a 100%, whether it had stabilized or not (Some argue he was placating Loki which I admit would make sense). Still, he's got better stamina than that.

When he fought Surfer he fought for like 3 issues straight under Fraction, and that included the mega hit against Galactus. He wasn't even showing signs of tiring.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Still, he's got better stamina than that.

When he fought Surfer he fought for like 3 issues straight under Fraction, and that included the mega hit against Galactus.

True, Thor's stamina is legendary and Fraction is aware of that. Besides the arc you mentioned, he had Thor fight an undying Legion for Forty Days and Forty Nights without any pause with ease in that Ancient Asgard mini. Also had him take an Asgardian weapon through the heart with no problem.

If the World Tree wound was actually affecting him, it'd make more sense. It'd also make that stretch of time one good stamina showing.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
True, Thor's stamina is legendary and Fraction is aware of that. Besides the arc you mentioned, he had Thor fight an undying Legion for Forty Days and Forty Nights without any pause with ease in that Ancient Asgard mini. Also had him take an Asgardian weapon through the heart with no problem.

If the World Tree wound was actually affecting him, it'd make more sense. It'd also make that stretch of time one good stamina showing. Ya. That's just Fraction too. He's got the Ultron Unlimited arc, fighting Hulk for an hour, the whole Blood and Thunder Arc, the Dark Gods arc, etc.

Was it ever actually explained what that did besides "Hurt"?

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Ya. That's just Fraction too. He's got the Ultron Unlimited arc, fighting Hulk for an hour, the whole Blood and Thunder Arc, the Dark Gods arc, etc.

Was it ever actually explained what that did besides "Hurt"?

Yea, Thor's got tons of stamina showings. I'd have liked it better if he had passed out from the collision instead of just wearing out.

I think it was supposed to be killing him, it started as a gash and was getting a lot worse. It seemed like a big deal in the beginning of the arc but then he fought Surfer/Galactus and he was like whatever.

I guess it's a testament to his stamina if anything. I'd find the lack of mention very suspect (The wound was only brought up at the end of Fear Itself) but Thor seemed to forget about the pain and shit it was causing him whenever he was in a fight even during the Galactus arc.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Yea, Thor's got tons of stamina showings. I'd have liked it better if he had passed out from the collision instead of just wearing out.

I think it was supposed to be killing him, it started as a gash and was getting a lot worse. It seemed like a big deal in the beginning of the arc but then he fought Surfer/Galactus and he was like whatever.

I guess it's a testament to his stamina, but it was only mentioned after Thor's death after that arc (Although Odin's comments about wounds that never healed could have been in reference to it). Fraction put the ground work for a future plot and seemed to have just forgotten about it after some highlighting. It seemed completely pointless after the initial shock. I figured Fraction tried expanding on it later. Seems I was wrong. Some beast coming out of Thor would have made sense though, or a portal. Bring Desak back through it without explanation... I could see it.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
It seemed completely pointless after the initial shock. I figured Fraction tried expanding on it later. Seems I was wrong. Some beast coming out of Thor would have made sense though, or a portal. Bring Desak back through it without explanation... I could see it.

I think he might have been sucked into the wound/consumed on his pyre but I'm not entirely sure. I kind of skimmed through that area.

Better than the dangling plot Fraction's left behind.

good lord, thor obliterates bi-beast if he wants to.....

thor>bi-beast