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Pre-Crisis Superman

VS

Worldbreaker Hulk

Solar Radiation vor Gamma Radiation?

y?

Depends on what you mean by Pre-Crisis Superman. I have a feeling for the purposes of this thread, it will mean will use only PC Superman's highest feats and throw out everything else.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Depends on what you mean by Pre-Crisis Superman. I have a feeling for the purposes of this thread, it will mean will use only PC Superman's highest feats and throw out everything else.

Whatever the forum rules call for in terms of standards.

Pre-Crisis means just that. Everything up to the CRISIS reboot is valid for the debate.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Whatever the forum rules call for in terms of standards.

Pre-Crisis means just that. Everything up to the CRISIS reboot is valid for the debate.

Well, Pre-Crisis Superman ranged from everything to Mid-Herald to Trans level and beyond, so really, it depends on what agenda someone wants to serve.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Well, Pre-Crisis Superman ranged from everything to Mid-Herald to Trans level and beyond, so really, it depends on what agenda someone wants to serve.

Cast a vote good sir!

Butt hurt.

Originally posted by klux
post crisis superman would one shot world breaker hulk, let alone pre crisis

I agree...Superman can one shot a guy that tanked attacks from multiple of heralds.

Originally posted by klux
post crisis superman would one shot world breaker hulk, let alone pre crisis

Actually no.

Well, that didn't take long.

Dear God.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Depends on what you mean by Pre-Crisis Superman. I have a feeling for the purposes of this thread, it will mean will use only PC Superman's highest feats and throw out everything else.
So we should use surfer getting ktfo by a hammer to head in fights? Cool.

Originally posted by abhilegend
So we should use surfer getting ktfo by a hammer to head in fights? Cool.

Was that the one done by the Mexicans.

Originally posted by carver9
I agree...Superman can one shot a guy that tanked attacks from multiple of heralds.

Than we're all in agreement. ^_^

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Well, Pre-Crisis Superman ranged from everything to Mid-Herald to Trans level and beyond, so really, it depends on what agenda someone wants to serve.

What long running character isn't all over the place?

Trumping up high end feats is pretty much the basics of comic book debating, and not exclusive to Superman (How often does the Celestial armor smashing feat get brought up for Thor?)

Originally posted by SquallX
Was that the one done by the Mexicans.
Yeah the same. By that standard against surfer you only have to bring a brick or poisioned soup, a shotgun for thor, a python for hulk, gas station for post-crisis superman, a deer for logan and batman can beat jla by punches and kickes.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah the same. By that standard against surfer you only have to bring a brick or poisioned soup, a shotgun for thor, a python for hulk, gas station for post-crisis superman, a deer for logan and batman can beat jla by punches and kickes.

Don't forget Black Panther and his chock hold for SS.

I thought the gas explosion was Pre, not Post Superman.

Also for Spectre, we can bring Batman kicking him, and Spectre falling down, when we knew Spectre weight was suppose to be near infinite in mass.

Using average showings of both...WBH wins.

Originally posted by abhilegend
So we should use surfer getting ktfo by a hammer to head in fights? Cool.

What does that have to do with anything I said?

Originally posted by cdtm
What long running character isn't all over the place?

Trumping up high end feats is pretty much the basics of comic book debating, and not exclusive to Superman (How often does the Celestial armor smashing feat get brought up for Thor?)

I back Thor often a lot and I don't cite high end feats of his like they're the norm.

Originally posted by carver9
Using average showings of both...WBH wins.
Lulz, what would be superman's average? Dude once extinguished a star with his breath and while battling once stopped the flow of time by sheer strength.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
What does that have to do with anything I said?
Why not? It happened and its canon. It can't be PIS, right?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Why not? It happened and its canon. It can't be PIS, right?

If you don't think there's plot device, context, or outright PIS when it comes to Surfer being attacked by a group of Mexicans, I don't know what to tell you.

The truth is a lot of pre-crisis low showings are shown without context. Example: grundy koing superman in three shots. People take it like superman would get killed by a single shot of mjolnir or if anybody shouted magic in vicinity of him, he would die. What they leave out is that grundy was already tough enough to tangle with superman and he absorbed Dr. Fate and alan scott's magic while shitstomping entire JSA before that. After all any sinestro corps member would three shot post crisis superman, because cyborg did it while wearing yellow rings, right?

Originally posted by abhilegend
The truth is a lot of pre-crisis low showings are shown without context. Example: grundy koing superman in three shots. People take it like superman would get killed by a single shot of mjolnir or if anybody shouted magic in vicinity of him, he would die. What they leave out is that grundy was already tough enough to tangle with superman and he absorbed Dr. Fate and alan scott's magic while shitstomping entire JSA before that. After all any sinestro corps member would three shot post crisis superman, because cyborg did it while wearing yellow rings, right?

One of your best posts, imo.

You're right. That's why there's no substitute for first hand reading, as scans and wiki's often don't tell the entire story..

Originally posted by abhilegend
The truth is a lot of pre-crisis low showings are shown without context. Example: grundy koing superman in three shots. People take it like superman would get killed by a single shot of mjolnir or if anybody shouted magic in vicinity of him, he would die. What they leave out is that grundy was already tough enough to tangle with superman and he absorbed Dr. Fate and alan scott's magic while shitstomping entire JSA before that. After all any sinestro corps member would three shot post crisis superman, because cyborg did it while wearing yellow rings, right?

So you're trying to use an example of Surfer being felled by Mexicans as an analogue for what you feel people are doing to Superman because...?

If the Sinestro Corps member in question were already physically around Superman's league and had ten of them like Henshaw did, sure.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
If you don't think there's plot device, context, or outright PIS when it comes to Surfer being attacked by a group of Mexicans, I don't know what to tell you.
So low showings count only for pre-crisis superman, right? A guy could close a black hole with his hands and got koed by electrical fence. Sounds similiar.

Originally posted by abhilegend
So low showings count only for pre-crisis superman, right? A guy could close a black hole with his hands and got koed by electrical fence. Sounds similiar.

Did I say that?

Answer: No. And no one else is saying that. Cool your jets here.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
So you're trying to use an example of Surfer being felled by Mexicans as an analogue for what you feel people are doing to Superman because...?

If the Sinestro Corps member in question were already physically around Superman's league and had ten of them like Henshaw did, sure.
So thor can toss planets like ping-pong balls or shit stomp PC JSA? Tell me it was not a norm, tell me. Because I read it somewhere on this site that thor would kill pc superman. I wonder how was he alive for all those years?

Originally posted by abhilegend
So thor can toss planets like ping-pong balls or shit stomp PC JSA? Tell me it was not a norm, tell me. Because I read it somewhere on this site that thor would kill pc superman. I wonder how was he alive for all those years? What does that have to do with his opinion....you are asking him to answer for someone else's opinion you think is on here somewhere.

Originally posted by abhilegend
So thor can toss planets like ping-pong balls or shit stomp PC JSA? Tell me it was not a norm, tell me. Because I read it somewhere on this site that thor would kill pc superman. I wonder how was he alive for all those years?

Jesus Christ.

First of all, we know Thor can't do either of those things, so don't be thick headed and act butt hurt because people don't like Superman with as much zeal as you do.

Second of all, I've read a lot of inane bullshit on the forum including:

*Wolverine is just as much a god as Thor is.
*The Sentry is Marvel's version of the Spectre.
*Thanos could solo the Green Lantern Corps.
*Dr. Doom would lose to Lex Luthor (LOL btw)
*Superman's heat vision is inferior to Cyclops' optic blast.
*Hulk would one shot kill Odin.
*Carver is an expert on comics.

This kind of nonsense doesn't bother me nearly as much as anything anti-Superman seems to effect you. Like, you take it personally, or at least, come off like you do.

If you want to exclusively use PC Superman's high end feats, that's your prerogative.

I don't think he understands the difference between average showings and low showings.

Speak of the devil!

Originally posted by Justforaminute
I'm new here, but I don't think I'll stick around very long, because I gotta say this site has some of the most stupid individuals I've ever seen.

Goodbye and good riddance

But not me, right? I was almost recruited to Comic Vine! That must count for something...

Originally posted by Justforaminute
I don't know what comicvine is, but you seem as stupid as the rest of the users here.

.... uhuh

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Jesus Christ.

First of all, we know Thor can't do either of those things, so don't be thick headed and act butt hurt because people don't like Superman with as much zeal as you do.

Second of all, I've read a lot of inane bullshit on the forum including:

*Wolverine is just as much a god as Thor is.
*The Sentry is Marvel's version of the Spectre.
*Thanos could solo the Green Lantern Corps.
*Dr. Doom would lose to Lex Luthor (LOL btw)
*Superman's heat vision is inferior to Cyclops' optic blast.
*Hulk would one shot kill Odin.
*Carver is an expert on comics.

This kind of nonsense doesn't bother me nearly as much as anything anti-Superman seems to effect you. Like, you take it personally, or at least, come off like you do.

If you want to exclusively use PC Superman's high end feats, that's your prerogative.
If it were carver saying these things, I couldn't care less. It bothers me when galan007, one of the most respected poster and creator of pc superman respect thread lefts context
Originally posted by Galan007
as far as pre-crisis feats go, i wouldn't say sivana's was PIS at all..

after years of research, sivanna found a way to 'overpower' the wizard shazam, by placing him in a trance:
http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/9170/sivana00.jpg
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/8352/sivana0.jpg

with the wizard out of the way, sivana was free to reroute the magical energy of shazam, into himself - which birthed, "captain sivana":
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/1907/sivana1.jpg
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/853/sivana2.jpg

---

and like i've been saying, "captain sivana" was powerful enough to own..

shazam:
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/4720/sivana3.jpg
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/6070/sivana4.jpg

the marvel family:
http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/6481/sivana5.jpg

e-2 superman:
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/4521/sivana6.jpg
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/9220/sivana7.jpg

'mainstream' superman:
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/6572/sivana8.jpg


...dude was pretty uber.

He just left a small detail

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/DC_Comics_present032.jpg

I could care less about half of those things. I was just goofing around in that thread as I admitted but you even made a bait thread for me and challenged me for a battlezone and you are lecturing me on taking this too zealously. Real nice jake, real nice. Oh and doom would lose 10/10 to PC lex. He may take 1/10 against post crisis lex.shifty

Anyways...

Going with Superman.

Even without using the insane stuff, he's still heads and tails superior to most Superman clones and heralds.. Faster than Surfer, imo, and as durable as anyone, and capable of moving planets and such (That scan of Mon El moving a white dwarf star is pretty much standard PC fare for Superman...)

But it's the speed that really breaks this fight for Hulk. All of his power is essentially useless if he's a statue..

Originally posted by abhilegend
If it were carver saying these things, I couldn't care less. It bothers me when galan007, one of the most respected poster and creator of pc superman respect thread lefts context


He just left a small detail

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/DC_Comics_present032.jpg

I could care less about half of those things. I was just goofing around in that thread as I admitted but you even made a bait thread for me and challenged me for a battlezone and you are lecturing me on taking this too zealously. Real nice jake, real nice. Oh and doom would lose 10/10 to PC lex. He may take 1/10 against post crisis lex.shifty Galan leaves out crucial pieces of context all the time.

Originally posted by cdtm
Anyways...

Going with Superman.

Even without using the insane stuff, he's still heads and tails superior to most Superman clones and heralds.. Faster than Surfer, imo, and as durable as anyone, and capable of moving planets and such (That scan of Mon El moving a white dwarf star is pretty much standard PC fare for Superman...)

But it's the speed that really breaks this fight for Hulk. All of his power is essentially useless if he's a statue..

PreCrisis Supes really don't have many combat speed fts. It all revolves around his space flight.

Originally posted by abhilegend
So thor can toss planets like ping-pong balls or shit stomp PC JSA? Tell me it was not a norm, tell me. Because I read it somewhere on this site that thor would kill pc superman. I wonder how was he alive for all those years? He likes to say "Shit stomp". hehe hehe.

it never gets old.

Originally posted by Justforaminute
world breaker hulk is kinda of a joke...actually the hulk in general is a joke

I agree. Hulk wins the majority.

Originally posted by abhilegend
If it were carver saying these things, I couldn't care less. It bothers me when galan007, one of the most respected poster and creator of pc superman respect thread lefts context


He just left a small detail

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/DC_Comics_present032.jpg

I could care less about half of those things. I was just goofing around in that thread as I admitted but you even made a bait thread for me and challenged me for a battlezone and you are lecturing me on taking this too zealously. Real nice jake, real nice. Oh and doom would lose 10/10 to PC lex. He may take -1/10 against post crisis lex.shifty

Such blasphemy!shifty

Originally posted by Justforaminute
why is carver9 such a hulk dick sucker...regular superman would already break hulk in half..



http://img25.imagevenue.com/loc124/th_06507_Superman676001_122_124lo.jpghttp://img46.imagevenue.com/loc125/th_06513_Superman676016_122_125lo.jpghttp://img168.imagevenue.com/loc73/th_06516_Superman676017_122_73lo.jpghttp://img258.imagevenue.com/loc80/th_06518_Superman676018_122_80lo.jpg
http://img251.imagevenue.com/loc64/th_06520_Superman676019_122_64lo.jpg

Originally posted by Justforaminute
captain america beat hulk, so superman would one shot him.

When did Captain America fight World War Hulk or World Breaker Hulk? Scans.

Originally posted by carver9
When did Captain America fight World War Hulk or World Breaker Hulk? Scans. I don't think Cap fought Butt Breaker Hulk.

Originally posted by Justforaminute
world breaker hulk is weaker then green scar hulk who spiderman one shotted

Lol...just like I thought. Concession accepted.

Originally posted by carver9
PreCrisis Supes really don't have many combat speed fts. It all revolves around his space flight.

There's a decent enough share of feats that aren't just flying in space.

My favorite is this one:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/SuperboytheLegionofSuperheroes245-14.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/SuperboytheLegionofSuperheroes245-15.jpg

Originally posted by carver9
http://img25.imagevenue.com/loc124/th_06507_Superman676001_122_124lo.jpghttp://img46.imagevenue.com/loc125/th_06513_Superman676016_122_125lo.jpghttp://img168.imagevenue.com/loc73/th_06516_Superman676017_122_73lo.jpghttp://img258.imagevenue.com/loc80/th_06518_Superman676018_122_80lo.jpg
http://img251.imagevenue.com/loc64/th_06520_Superman676019_122_64lo.jpg
Year one superman who killed the undead in two punches.

Originally posted by cdtm
There's a decent enough share of feats that aren't just flying in space.

My favorite is this one:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/SuperboytheLegionofSuperheroes245-14.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/SuperboytheLegionofSuperheroes245-15.jpg Is that young Kal-El or young Kal-L?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Is that young Kal-El or young Kal-L?

Kal El. Stories painted Superboy as Earth 1 Superman.

Silver age supes takes this.

Originally posted by cdtm
Kal El. Stories painted Superboy as Earth 1 Superman. So no PC Superboy feats belong to Kal-L?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
So no PC Superboy feats belong to Kal-L?

Kal L didn't even exist until the 1960's. People think of Kal L as golden age Superman, but he really isn't, he's a separate character designed to explain plot holes...

Kal L didn't have Superboys (Or Earth 1 Supermans) power levels.. He had trouble handling an exploding nuke without Alan Scott and Wonder Woman's support, and still got knocked for a loop when he detonated.

Originally posted by cdtm
Kal L didn't even exist until the 1960's. People think of Kal L as golden age Superman, but he really isn't, he's a separate character designed to explain plot holes...

Kal L didn't have Superboys (Or Earth 1 Supermans) power levels.. He had trouble handling an exploding nuke without Alan Scott and Wonder Woman's support, and still got knocked for a loop when he detonated. Not that I disagree with anything you've said... but you don't think it odd that Kal-L was basically the ultimate hero during Crisis on Infinite Earths while Kal-El took second billing? Even when Kal-El was supposed to be a more mature, seasoned, powerful Superboy?

Originally posted by Justforaminute
so u agree that green scar is stronger then world breaker? cool, then u agree that captain america would beat world breaker since he beat green scar

check and mate

When did Captain America beat green scar? Scans.

OneDumbGo:

I'm talking historically.

But yes, DC's stance has been that Kal L is the original, golden age Superman, even though there's continuity holes there..

In any event, the connection between Earth 1 Superman and Superboy with the Legion of Super Heroes is pretty firm, with flashback memories and crossover stories firmly establishing which Superman that Superboy is supposed to be.

Kal L was a Justice Society member, happily married to his Lois, and didn't really do any time traveling stories or even display the ability to travel through time under his own power.

^ In your opinion then, PC Superman's best feats (which are typically PC Superboy feats) must be somewhat diminished... since by the time Crisis on Infinite Earths rolled around... Kal-El was basically, at best, on par with Kal-L? Taking into accounts their full histories anyway...

A gang of mexicans with sledgehammers show up and beat them both to death.

Originally posted by abhilegend
If it were carver saying these things, I couldn't care less. It bothers me when galan007, one of the most respected poster and creator of pc superman respect thread lefts context


He just left a small detail

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/DC_Comics_present032.jpg

I could care less about half of those things. I was just goofing around in that thread as I admitted but you even made a bait thread for me and challenged me for a battlezone and you are lecturing me on taking this too zealously. Real nice jake, real nice. Oh and doom would lose 10/10 to PC lex. He may take 1/10 against post crisis lex.shifty

So take that up with Galan, then. And for the record, most of the forum would agree that Galan knows his shit without being bias anyway. And even then, he's not infallible. Regardless, if you feel it's like your personal mission to police the forum on behalf of Superman, you're going to do what you feel like doing anyway. It's just hard to take you seriously when you're painfully transparent about it.

I made a bait thread for you? Really? What was that?

I know because Lex Luthor is Superman's archenemy you feel you must back him up in some capacity (for whatever reason) but I'd suggest you read up on Dr. Doom before you jokingly or seriously attempt to contend that Luthor has anything on him at all. PC Lex's super MacGuvyer gimmicks still fall short of the numerous times Doom's obtained damn close to omnipotent power if you want to take them at their absolute best. Post Crisis Lex isn't worth Doom's time at all.

What ODG was forgetting or ignorant is "Kryptonite nevermore".

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
So take that up with Galan, then. And for the record, most of the forum would agree that Galan knows his shit without being bias anyway. And even then, he's not infallible. Regardless, if you feel it's like your personal mission to police the forum on behalf of Superman, you're going to do what you feel like doing anyway. It's just hard to take you seriously when you're painfully transparent about it.

I made a bait thread for you? Really? What was that?

I know because Lex Luthor is Superman's archenemy you feel you must back him up in some capacity (for whatever reason) but I'd suggest you read up on Dr. Doom before you jokingly or seriously attempt to contend that Luthor has anything on him at all. PC Lex's super MacGuvyer gimmicks still fall short of the numerous times Doom's obtained damn close to omnipotent power if you want to take them at their absolute best. Post Crisis Lex isn't worth Doom's time at all.
Take that tone to somewhere else jake. It's not going to work on me. I was just giving an example. Your bait thread

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=557624

Like I said I was just goofing around and I can defend anyone I want. This is none of your damn business. Who said I was going to police this forum or galan is ignorant? Don't patronise me jake, you feel like I'm wrong about anything make a thread about it. Lulz at doom beating PC lex. IYO, that doesn't makes it a fact.

Originally posted by cyborgbill
now that'just silly, ive read hundreds of comics with doom in them, luthor may not be scientifically as good as doom but he's not far off, he recently became an abstract level being.

You do realize how many times Doom has seized ultimate power, right?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Take that tone to somewhere else jake. It's not going to work on me. I was just giving an example. Your bait thread

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=557624

Like I said I was just goofing around and I can defend anyone I want. This is none of your damn business. Who said I was going to police this forum or galan is ignorant? Don't patronise me jake, you feel like I'm wrong about anything make a thread about it. Lulz at doom beating PC lex. IYO, that doesn't makes it a fact.

Lol? What tone? You were the one who flew in here and started complaining about how other people (not sure who) want to use only low feats for Superman and then proceeded to strawman and ask inane questions because you felt that Superman gets picked on or something? I don't know the logic or reasoning behind it, but it's pretty obvious to me what your angle is. I don't have any issues with it (I can put up with Carver and Quan more often than not, after all) but don't pretend it doesn't exist.

How is that a bait thread? The longer the prep time, the more of an edge it falls to Reed and Doom. And there's certainly room for "Superman speedblitzes before they know what to do" style arguments.

Okay, you're goofing around. Yes, you can defend whomever you want; just realize you'll be called out when said defense isn't all that sturdy. It's my business, and the forum's as a whole, if you actively participate in the, well, forum. I didn't say Galan was ignorant nor did I say you said that, though that seems to be a running theme here...me apparently saying things that I never did. If you don't think Doom could beat PC Lex, I don't know what to tell you considering who Doom has beaten before. Post Crisis Lex does not bode well. At all.

Originally posted by cyborgbill
sure, but it's a feat luthor can replicate so he isn't far off from dooms level, on top of that in children's crusade he supposedly gained omnipotence but then got stripped of his power, the only reason luthor lost is because he couldnt let go of his humanity and hate for superman.

So you believe that Luthor can replicate every feat of Doom's?

Yeah...no. Sorry, Lex is good, but Doom is better. And in some cases, a lot better.

So they both lost their ultimate power due to plot device? Okay.

And Doom's track record with ultimate power is still far better than Luthor's. Even with standard resources/weapons, Doom's better off than Lex. Not sure what there is to debate about.

Originally posted by cyborgbill
i think doom could beat luthor but i feel that luthor is being underestimated, doom is better with science and has better tech, but lex is arguably a better planner, schemer than doom is.

Based on feats, Doom would beat Luthor decisively, and potentially, very horribly.

Based on what is Lex arguably a better planner/schemer than Doom?

Originally posted by cyborgbill
no, i said luthor replicated some of his best feats. luthor didnt lose his power because of a plot device, he lost it because of CIS, he never got his power stripped from him.

doom is better with science, magic, tech, luthor is arguably a better schemer, strategist then doom is.

Okay, Lex Luthor's terrible personality traits backfired and caused him to lose his power. How does that make it any better than Doom?

So Doom is definitely, iyo, better with science, magic, and tech. But Luthor is arguably, iyo, a better schemer and strategist than Doom. How?

Originally posted by cyborgbill
the whole black ring story arc was planned by luthor, without all of the tech doom has luthor planned his way to god hood.

doom has impressive feats but he has more losses then luthor does also. t'challa was able to outprep doom also.

So, Lex planned and plotted his way to godhood without use of the tech that Doom has. And this makes him equal or possibly better than Doom...how? Does Doom get penalized for having way better resources than Luthor has by far? Or are you trying to suggest that Lex can do more with less (which I heartily disagree with, but that's another discussion)? Just trying to figure out where you're coming from.

T'Challa has been humilated by Doom more often than not. And T'Challa would likely outprep Lex as well. And if you're referring to Doomwar, that does T'Challa no favors as Doom clearly had him beat through the entire arc up until the very end.

Originally posted by cyborgbill
right, because doom has no terrible personaility traits, he was practically raging in children's crusade because he couldn't get into scarlett witches pants.

luthor imo has better feats when it comes to manipulating others, he's more subtle than doom is, planning out his moves more carefully over a longer term.

I didn't say that. I still don't get how you feel that Lex's CIS stopping him is a better excuse than plot device concerning Doom losing his total power amps.

Such as?

Originally posted by cyborgbill
no, that makes him a better schemer, planner, manipulator than doom is. doom doesnt get penalized for having better tech, but the tech he used played a huge part in gaining godhood, without tech doom doesn't have as impressive feats as luthor does, although that doesn't mean doom doesn't have impressive feats since he didn't technically use any tech in children crusade

t'challa wouldn't outprep lex, and yes i am referring to doomwar when he destroyed all the processed vibrainum, even if doom was winning for the entire story, he lost in the end. point is doom does have a worse track then luthor does

What are these schemes, plans, and manipulations you're referring to if I may ask? Doom without tech is still an accomplished mage, arguably one of the most powerful on Marvel Earth at this moment. If you give them the exact same resources, Doom would accomplish more than Lex would. Even if you give Lex an edge with more prep time or more resources at his behest, Doom would still beat him. He's just that much more intelligent and outright powerful without his devices and technology.

Based on what? Doom lost because he didn't expect T'Challa to basically take his country down to hell just to win and even then, if you call that a victory for T'Challa, it's the furthest thing from a clean through and through win I've seen for a long time. He has a worse track record? How? Especially considering everything Doom has done?

Originally posted by cyborgbill
because the only person that was able to stop luthor, was luthor himself, when it came to doom he lost because wanda and wiccan stripped him of the lfe.

such as outsmarting brainiac, nearly bringing beating most of new krypton's military, he had some pretty impressive stuff in countdown also

So Lex beating himself because of his flawed personality is somehow better than Doom's power being usurped due to plot device? All that means is that Lex wasn't able to control the power he had at his disposal. Still not sure how that makes him equal to or greater than Doom from Children's Crusade. And even then, Doom's entire history when taken into account is far more impressive than Lex's.

Doom's outsmarted Reed Richards, taken over the world more than once, obtained omnipotence more than once, has better tech, etc.

Lex isn't stupid, but really, based on feats, Doom operates on a different scale than he does.

Originally posted by cyborgbill
i listed a few above, doom being a magic user has nothing to do with how well he schemes and plans, if u give them the exact same resources doom accomplishing more than lex is something very debateable, he's more intelligent when it comes to science and tech, so he hasn't done anything to suggest he's as good a planner,schemer as luthor is.

doom not expecting t'challa to destroy his greatest resource is dooms own fault, which pretty much proves my point that doom has a tendency to not think things out thoroughly as luthor does, which is why his track record is worse then lex's is.

It does, actually. His magic has played very large roles in his schemes and plots. In fact, he has several arcs focused primarily around his mysticism instead of his science. If you give two guys the same stuff, and one guy is already more powerful than the other guy, and is smarter and well versed in more areas of science and the arcane than the other guy, how is it in doubt who wins?

So Doom not expecting T'Challa to tank his own country's resources is a fault against him, but Lex's irrational hatred of Superman causing him to lose his power doesn't count against Lex?

I'm still not seeing how his record is worse than Lex when Doom's accomplished way more than Lex has on a consistent basis and has beaten more people outright or through prep feats than Lex has.

lex really can't match up to Doom

Originally posted by cyborgbill
yes, in superman's case they basically lucked out with lex, in doom's case it was simply a matter of them taking away the life force entity,

dooms history being more impressive is subjective also, he's beaten better but he's lost to worst. he's outsmarted reed and reed in return has outsmarted him, you can't just list all of dooms highest showings and ignore his lowest one's. doom's taken over the world, but taking over the world was never luthor's goal.

It wasn't really luck; it was Lex being unworthy of the power he tried to take. I'm not sure why Lex's example is better still.

It's not subjective, not really. I'm not ignoring his lower showings or his losses, either. I'm using his entire history as a character as opposed to Lex Luthor. And really, they don't compare. Doom's primary goals as follows:

-Humilate/defeat/prove his superiority over Reed Richards.
-World Domination (and beyond)
-Free his Mother's soul from Hell

He's accomplished all of those with the first two being goals he's succeeded at more than once. He loses because he's a villain and that's what villains do. How that is any different from Lex Luthor's plans to control, humilate, or destroy Superman not permanently sticking are beyond me.

Wait is this thread Doom/Lex or Hulk/Superman?

Originally posted by cyborgbill
no, i'm not saying his magic doesn't play a role in his schemes and plots,m i'm saying his magic has little to do with his ability to scheme and plot. if you give them the same tech doom might win because how well versed he is in using tech and magic but not because he can outplan lex.

yes, it's luthor's fault for being unable to let go his hate for superman, but this is a matter of superman lucking out to stop luthor, bcause if it wasn't for that there would be nothing else to stop him. on top of that luthor didn't even lose his powers, he ended up bfr'ing himself from the universe. in dooms case he lost because of someone elses actions. you can count that against luthor if you want, but it's not as bad as someone outsmarting him or stripping him of his powers, there was no external factors involved

you keep telling me that doom has so many awesone feats and has accomplished so much, but aren't acknowleding all of the losses he's had over the past 50 years in comparison to lex, his track record is worse

Except he can out plan Lex. How can Lex out plan a guy smarter than he is when it comes to virtually everything? Lex doesn't compete with an intellectual rival on a regular basis like Doom does. And Lex wouldn't be able to consistently give Richards a helluva fight mentally like Doom can. And yes, his magic enables him to scrye, explore avenues of research he wouldn't normally, and is a huge boon to him.

But Superman didn't "luck" out. He was dead to rights and Lex Luthor's personal foils beat himself. Doom lost to parties actively trying to beat him and succeeding through luck, plot device, and more than a smattering of PIS. And it's consistent with his history. The Power Cosmic, the Beyonder's Power, Vibranium Armor, the Destroyer Armor, Wanda's powers, etc. Doom loses when the plot calls for it, not due to him beating himself through personality traits. Ie. Doom doesn't beat himself because he's unworthy of the power. Either way, it's moot because villains with ultimate power ultimately lose.

That being said, Doom's accomplishments are better than those of Lex's. And Lex has been consistently losing or having his plans foiled by Superman for years, so what's your point?

Originally posted by cyborgbill
im out, the users here are too stupid for my taste

Concession accepted.

Originally posted by cyborgbill
considering there records, lex could outsmart doom, there is some serious fan wanking going on here and ignorance of the characters,

Do you really think Lex could outsmart Doom for the majority?

Jake now you're just reaching mindset's level. Doom would beat spectre, ZH parallax, COIE anti-monitor and The presence with a nanosecond of prep with bare hands, happy. Call me when he beats that pansy richards or lists better than real villains, you know like Lex, Joker, Magneto etc. What happens when "DOOM THE BESTESEST" comes to DC comics? This happens

http://www.griph.net/bp/them2.jpg

Since grant morrison is God, this is the final fate of "DOOM THE BESTESEST"./rant

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Do you really think Lex could outsmart Doom for the majority?
Why not? Leader did it and turned victor into in a drooling idiot. You are overestimating doom as usual.

Who says Morrison's god? O_o

His good stuffs really good, but there's days when he's obviously off his medication.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Jake now you're just reaching mindset's level. Doom would beat spectre, ZH parallax, COIE anti-monitor and The presence with a nanosecond of prep with bare hands, happy. Call me when he beats that pansy richards or lists better than real villains, you know like Lex, Joker, Magneto etc. What happens when "DOOM THE BESTESEST" comes to DC comics? This happens

http://www.griph.net/bp/them2.jpg

Since grant morrison is God, this is the final fate of "DOOM THE BESTESEST"./rant

Mindset is trolling. Usually. I think.

But this little rant of yours speaks loud and clear, though. Obviously, you're flustered to the point where you're rattling off names of people you think I believe Doom beats with prep in order to make some kind of point. He's already beaten Richards, so, yeah, been there done that. Not sure why you think Lex or Joker are more "real villain" material than Doom...?

God, you're acting really butt hurt over this.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Why not? Leader did it and turned victor into in a drooling idiot. You are overestimating doom as usual.

Leader sure as hell can't do it for the majority, which is what I'm asking here. But you knew that.

How am I overestimating Doom? By feats, history, and portrayal, he is consistently above Luthor by a decent degree with Lex being good enough to be problematic. At their best, Doom blows him out of the water.

Do you disagree?

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Mindset is trolling. Usually. I think.

But this little rant of yours speaks loud and clear, though. Obviously, you're flustered to the point where you're rattling off names of people you think I believe Doom beats with prep in order to make some kind of point. He's already beaten Richards, so, yeah, been there done that. Not sure why you think Lex or Joker are more "real villain" material than Doom...?

God, you're acting really butt hurt over this.
When did he beat reed? Just recently an alternate reed owned him and was moving him around like a dog. Sure anybody who beat doom can't beat him for a majority and anybody who beat him is automatically more intelligent than anyone save doom and reed, why am I surprised? Point me to the victories doom has on leader and banner. I thought you were better than this jake. So who can take a majority over doom IYO?

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Leader sure as hell can't do it for the majority, which is what I'm asking here. But you knew that.

How am I overestimating Doom? By feats, history, and portrayal, he is consistently above Luthor by a decent degree with Lex being good enough to be problematic. At their best, Doom blows him out of the water.

Do you disagree?
I think that he can take 6-7/10 against post-crisis lex. At their best without any plot device PC lex makes doom wish he was never born.

Originally posted by abhilegend
When did he beat reed? Just recently an alternate reed owned him and was moving him around like a dog. Sure anybody who beat doom can't beat him for a majority and anybody who beat him is automatically more intelligent than anyone save doom and reed, why am I surprised? Point me to the victories doom has on leader and banner. I thought you were better than this jake. So who can take a majority over doom IYO?

More than several times over the course of the history of the Fantastic Four comic book series? He's trashed the team in combat, succeeded in situations where Reed couldn't, kidnapped his family, forced Reed to admit that Doom was his superior when it came to various areas, etc. I can't believe you're seriously asking that. Does Reed beat Doom eventually? Sure, but that doesn't erase Doom's victories over Reed and his family.

I'd suggest you stop strawmanning and putting words in my mouth, too.

His feats being superior to Leader's and Banner's tech/intellect feats as a whole, as well. Feel free to compare or don't; you've already made up your mind.

Who can beat Doom? Straight up or with prep? Not Lex Luthor, that's for sure.

Originally posted by abhilegend
I think that he can take 6-7/10 against post-crisis lex. At their best without any plot device PC lex makes doom he was never born.

How does PC Lex, without plot device, makes Doom "never born"?

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
More than several times over the course of the history of the Fantastic Four comic book series? He's trashed the team in combat, succeeded in situations where Reed couldn't, kidnapped his family, forced Reed to admit that Doom was his superior when it came to various areas, etc. I can't believe you're seriously asking that. Does Reed beat Doom eventually? Sure, but that doesn't erase Doom's victories over Reed and his family.

I'd suggest you stop strawmanning and putting words in my mouth, too.

His feats being superior to Leader's and Banner's tech/intellect feats as a whole, as well. Feel free to compare or don't; you've already made up your mind.

Who can beat Doom? Straight up or with prep? Not Lex Luthor, that's for sure.
Good quan arguement jake. I will leave this conversation here jake because this isn't the right place and you are starting to enter fanboy mode. But the next time you try to bring up superman=captain marvel, try to remember this conversation so as to not sound like a hypocrite.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
How does PC Lex, without plot device, makes Doom "never born"?
CURSES, FOILED AGAIN.durhulk

Originally posted by abhilegend
Good quan arguement jake. I will leave this conversation here jake because this isn't the right place and you are starting to enter fanboy mode. But the next time you try to bring up superman=captain marvel, try to remember this conversation so as to not sound like a hypocrite.

Wow.

Just...wow.

First off all, "Quan argument"? How does that even begin to make a lick of sense here? I mean, come the hell on. Elaborate.

Secondly, I'm entering fanboy mode? Pot, kettle. This entire conversation has been diverted from the OP because of you going off on tangent about how you feel people treat Superman unfairly and want to use only his low PC showings without context over his high ones...even though no one was arguing we do that. The only reason why you're trying to argue Lex over Doom is because of his relationship to Superman, let's be honest. I could care less that you want to back up Superman till the end and all of his associated characters and elements, I really could. But be honest about it. Don't strawman or throw up red herrings and turn face with the "I was just goofing around" thing. As...questionable as Quan can be with his Thanos gimmick, he's pretty honest about it in his own way. We know what he's all about and really, it shouldn't be pissing off anyone anymore anyway.

You can bet I'll remember this convo.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Wow.

Just...wow.

First off all, "Quan argument"? How does that even begin to make a lick of sense here? I mean, come the hell on. Elaborate.



That's 100% quan quality answer. Ask him in a thread who can beat thanos.



Then what's this



He lost to leader on-panel, banner made a fool of him on-panel and you're trying to tell me to compare feats. So I guess Thor would make Tutinax his *****, afterall tutinax didn't lift midgard serpent. Why were you complaining on the first page that being PC means we only use highest showings and throw anything else. Tell me what showings we should use. How does me liking superman and his supporting cast makes any difference? Anytime I said something fanboyish in this thread was followed by a smilie meaning that I was not serious. It was you who claimed that post crisis lex wouldn't bother doom at all. Who's entering fanboy mode now? Just because you've become immune to stupidity thanks to quan and carver doesn't mean everyone else is.


Just remember this

As for thread, ya'll know PC captain marvel, the same guy who was invulnerable to physical harm has to say about superman
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/SupermanVsShazam-54.jpg

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah the same. By that standard against surfer you only have to bring a brick or poisioned soup, a shotgun for thor, a python for hulk, gas station for post-crisis superman, a deer for logan and batman can beat jla by punches and kickes.

Ill have to double check but im Pretty sure Surfer was pretending in that fight...

Originally posted by abhilegend
Good quan arguement jake. I will leave this conversation here jake because this isn't the right place and you are starting to enter fanboy mode. But the next time you try to bring up superman=captain marvel, try to remember this conversation so as to not sound like a hypocrite. Why do you insist on bringing up my name here. Just let it go.

Originally posted by abhilegend
As for thread, ya'll know PC captain marvel, the same guy who was invulnerable to physical harm has to say about superman
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/SupermanVsShazam-54.jpg

"My powers must be weaker in this universe"?

The wizard Shazam confirms this, too. Equates Cap being outside of Earth S to Superman being under a red sun.

In all honesty Superman could just fly in, grab the Hulk by his ankle and throw him into deep space for the quick win.

Originally posted by abhilegend
That's 100% quan quality answer. Ask him in a thread who can beat thanos.



Then what's this



He lost to leader on-panel, banner made a fool of him on-panel and you're trying to tell me to compare feats. So I guess Thor would make Tutinax his *****, afterall tutinax didn't lift midgard serpent. Why were you complaining on the first page that being PC means we only use highest showings and throw anything else. Tell me what showings we should use. How does me liking superman and his supporting cast makes any difference? Anytime I said something fanboyish in this thread was followed by a smilie meaning that I was not serious. It was you who claimed that post crisis lex wouldn't bother doom at all. Who's entering fanboy mode now? Just because you've become immune to stupidity thanks to quan and carver doesn't mean everyone else is.


Just remember this

Not sure what Quan has to do with anything here at all outside of you trying to bring him up to make yourself look more rational or whatnot. Quan is as Quan does; he likes Thanos a lot. No skin off my back. He sometimes claims he is Thanos. That doesn't hold any merit in what you're trying to do here, which is painfully obvious.

When Leader or Banner succeed at half of the stuff Doom has done, give me a call. They have victories over him, sure. I'm not disputing that nor am I saying they don't count. But character histories as a whole support Doom being > both of them. It's not up for debate, really, and this whole side argument is a red herring to distract (or at least attempt to distract) people from the crux of this whole thread: Superman.

We should overall histories, obviously, which is what I've been saying all this time. Don't act dense and attempt to strawman me with your rants and play it off like joking. You liking Superman and co. in of itself isn't anything worth arguing over. But when you attempt to play at some kind of agenda and act really butt hurt over something that has nothing to do with anything really (such as my off hand comment about Doom being > Lex Luthor - and he is ) it shows your colors for the forum to see.

Post Crisis Lex Luthor doesn't really have much to suggest he'd beat Doom unless you want to give Lex some kind of one sided advantage. By all means, we can compare feats and accomplishments, and then we can let impartial parties decide just who is the superior character and by how much of a degree. Makes no difference to me.

I'm not immune to stupidity; I'm engaging in this thread, aren't I?

WBH 5.9/10

how do you win .9 of a fight?
is it a points victory?


WBH 10/10.

Originally posted by janus77
how do you win .9 of a fight?
is it a points victory?


WBH 10/10. Pre-Crisis Bro.......

Originally posted by janus77
how do you win .9 of a fight?
is it a points victory?


WBH 10/10.

10 of 10?

You aren't even allowing Superman one win with the Black hole closing grip of death?

Pre-Crisis Superman Did Not Impress Me Actually

Originally posted by TheHulk
Pre-Crisis Superman Did Not Impress Me Actually

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37815/1159522-supersneezeae9og9_super.jpg

http://lounge.moviecodec.com/images/attachment/pre-crisis-superman-and-the-flash-destroy-hst-in-a-week-21691.jpg

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
10 of 10?

You aren't even allowing Superman one win with the Black hole closing grip of death?
sounds like a finishing move off of Mortal Kombat but still, Savage Hulk Smash .

Originally posted by cdtm
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37815/1159522-supersneezeae9og9_super.jpg

http://lounge.moviecodec.com/images/attachment/pre-crisis-superman-and-the-flash-destroy-hst-in-a-week-21691.jpg
Other than proving he's vulnerable to the common cold (something which Savage Hulk is not susceptible to!) and that he doesn't understand that you cannot chain-pull a solar system worth of planets. It's not impressive.

Originally posted by cdtm
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37815/1159522-supersneezeae9og9_super.jpg

http://lounge.moviecodec.com/images/attachment/pre-crisis-superman-and-the-flash-destroy-hst-in-a-week-21691.jpg He killed every living being on those planets.

indeed, callous mass-genocide!

All jokes aside, PC supes wins this.

Originally posted by TheHulk
Pre-Crisis Superman Did Not Impress Me Actually Agreed.

Originally posted by janus77
sounds like a finishing move off of Mortal Kombat but still, Savage Hulk Smash . Originally posted by janus77
Other than proving he's vulnerable to the common cold (something which Savage Hulk is not susceptible to!) and that he doesn't understand that you cannot chain-pull a solar system worth of planets. It's not impressive.
Lulz. But you are the same guy who thought surfer could solo JLA.

PC Superman beats any and every version of Hulk with ridiculous ease.

Originally posted by cdtm
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37815/1159522-supersneezeae9og9_super.jpg

http://lounge.moviecodec.com/images/attachment/pre-crisis-superman-and-the-flash-destroy-hst-in-a-week-21691.jpg My God. http://images.killermovies.com/forums/customsmilies/ermm.gif

If we use this type of strength as a standard, hulk might actually break a sweat beating the crap out of superman.

Originally posted by Damborgson
My God. http://images.killermovies.com/forums/customsmilies/ermm.gif

If we use this type of strength as a standard, hulk might actually break a sweat beating the crap out of superman.

http://oyster.ignimgs.com/wordpress/www.ign.com/291/2010/12/Im-serious-like-seriously.jpg

Originally posted by Damborgson
http://oyster.ignimgs.com/wordpress/www.ign.com/291/2010/12/Im-serious-like-seriously.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/My%20photos/Lulz/2d2fvat.gif

Originally posted by Magnon
PC Superman beats any and every version of Hulk with ridiculous ease. I don't think so.

Superman wrecks him

Originally posted by cdtm
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37815/1159522-supersneezeae9og9_super.jpg

http://lounge.moviecodec.com/images/attachment/pre-crisis-superman-and-the-flash-destroy-hst-in-a-week-21691.jpg


Not even Prime living in a star for a few hundred centuries could do this. This Superman is more or less likely to be able to take on an IG user, which is why any thread made with him due to forum rules that states "At their best", should automatically make this a spite thread against anything, or any character outside of Superman vs LT, or some very powerful Abstract. Why do people even bother to reply to these ridiculous threads?

I really don't know.

Originally posted by Stoic
Not even Prime living in a star for a few hundred centuries could do this. This Superman is more or less likely to be able to take on an IG user, which is why any thread made with him due to forum rules that states "At their best", should automatically make this a spite thread against anything, or any character outside of Superman vs LT, or some very powerful Abstract. Why do people even bother to reply to these ridiculous threads? Originally posted by cdtm
http://www.buyersmls.com/comics/hulksuperman/supermantvstuff/hulk2.jpg

http://www.buyersmls.com/comics/hulksuperman/supermantvstuff/hulk3.jpg

http://www.buyersmls.com/comics/hulksuperman/supermantvstuff/hulk4.jpg

http://www.buyersmls.com/comics/hulksuperman/supermantvstuff/hulk5.jpg

http://www.buyersmls.com/comics/hulksuperman/supermantvstuff/hulk6b.jpg

http://www.buyersmls.com/comics/hulksuperman/supermantvstuff/hulk7.jpg



it's the inconsistency of PC feats that is the issue

Originally posted by psycho gundam
it's the inconsistency of PC feats that is the issue

It's consistent.

In that it's perfectly inconsistent for everyday stories, but consistent that Superman is shown above just about any other hero head to head, or when DC editorial says so. (Say, like Mongul tearing up the Legion of Super Heroes and treating the JLA, including Supergirl and Hal, like afterthoughts, with Supes the only one to match him, or the Phantom Zone story where everyone could barely handle one Kryptonian, and Superman goes through about a half dozen like a hot knife through butter, including one or two shot KOing Zod..)

Anyways, like other posters have said, if we used this Superman as a baseline, it doesn't look good for Supermans ability to fight much, much stronger incarnations...

I still say Superman wins on his other attributes like speed, but just saying.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
it's the inconsistency of PC feats that is the issue

Everyone is saying that in this thread, but if we take into account every inconsistency from every character and factor it in, then any character (DC or Marvel) that's been around longer than 40 years goes down an entire tier or more almost immediately.

I'm not saying that the the low feats and weaknesses don't matter, but I am saying that a man that literally juggles planets every other issue is not going to get taken down by a gorilla no matter how you spin it. I'm also saying that a being that flies through stars isn't going to be beaten half to death by Mexicans with hammers..... that's why we coined the term "Plot Induced Stupidity."

towing planets is also plot induced stupidity

Originally posted by psycho gundam
towing planets is also plot induced stupidity

So is flying faster than the speed of light, or drawing power from a whale made of willpower.

not really, i'd say P.I.S. in that vain would be the invention of parallax as a reason for the yellow weakness. instead of simply removing that limitation they invented a creature based on it, yet it still doesn't really explain why things that so happen to harmlessly reflect yellow light waves render a GL aquaman (aka useless as phuck)

attributing only high end exhibitions of power only is why the forum has to endure hearing about hulk shatter a dimension ad nauseum, no matter the context or lack of actual seriousness of the writing staff. i for one knew they didn't give a shit back in the 60's

edit* superboy-prime can't do 90% of the stuff super boy did back in losh from the true PC days, it's simply a different time

Which is my point. If we're going to actually use these characters, then why neuter them for the sake of real world physics? You know how absurd it gets when people try to argue that.

Oh, and the parallax thing is just a retcon. That's really it. There's a difference between bad writing that for all intents and purposes goes along with continuity, and Plot Induced Stupidity, which is the antithesis of everything for which the character and/or plot should and does stand. i.e Pre-crisis Superman was consistently weakened by Kryptonite... not gorillas. That's how we know it's PIS.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
not really, i'd say P.I.S. in that vain would be the invention of parallax as a reason for the yellow weakness. instead of simply removing that limitation they invented a creature based on it, yet it still doesn't really explain why things that so happen to harmlessly reflect yellow light waves render a GL aquaman (aka useless as phuck)

attributing only high end exhibitions of power only is why the forum has to endure hearing about hulk shatter a dimension ad nauseum, no matter the context or lack of actual seriousness of the writing staff. i for one knew they didn't give a shit back in the 60's

edit* superboy-prime can't do 90% of the stuff super boy did back in losh from the true PC days, it's simply a different time



Ironic seeing as Aquaman once used a GL ring to take down a villain.

Originally posted by psycho gundam

attributing only high end exhibitions of power only is why the forum has to endure hearing about hulk shatter a dimension ad nauseum, no matter the context or lack of actual seriousness of the writing staff. i for one knew they didn't give a shit back in the 60's

I blame the internet, and the rise of the Comic Book Guys.

Yeah, they probably didn't give a shit, because it was about entertainment, and not the SERIOUS BUSINESS of pleasing fanboys or fanboys turned writer run amok.....

Originally posted by -Pr-


Ironic seeing as Aquaman once used a GL ring to take down a villain. i get great joy out of mocking aquaman, raoul

and yeah, PIS

Originally posted by Sirius77
Which is my point. If we're going to actually use these characters, then why neuter them for the sake of real world physics? You know how absurd it gets when people try to argue that. it'a not about comic book physics, it's the fact that he had the casual strength to move a solar system like that when in other stories he'd have issues with far less opposition far more frequently.

I like it when mocking has factual basis. Otherwise it's just petty.

gpopXL2h33U&feature

Originally posted by psycho gundam
gpopXL2h33U&feature

SA Superboy would destroy any Hulk. Never mind SA Superman.

He towed those dozens of planets together (which is actually a pretty funny pic btw), but as ridiculous a feat as that is, its obvious the writers intention to show the enormosity of his strength.

Heck take away SA Superboy's speed and flight and I still say he destroys Hulk (or any current high herald)

Originally posted by janus77
Other than proving he's vulnerable to the common cold (something which Savage Hulk is not susceptible to!) and that he doesn't understand that you cannot chain-pull a solar system worth of planets. It's not impressive. His cold was caused by Mxy. Superman is immune to sickness.

And yet, he did.

Originally posted by Juntai
His cold was caused by Mxy. Superman is immune to sickness.

And yet, he did.
Did you forget who you are addressing?

Originally posted by psycho gundam
it'a not about comic book physics, it's the fact that he had the casual strength to move a solar system like that when in other stories he'd have issues with far less opposition far more frequently.

What opposition are you referring to? Because like I said, if you're referring to the gorilla instance, then ask yourself how it makes sense to count that as anything other than inconsistent writing. Like I said, if we factor that in, then we have to do the same for every other character.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
i get great joy out of mocking aquaman, raoul

and yeah, PIS

it'a not about comic book physics, it's the fact that he had the casual strength to move a solar system like that when in other stories he'd have issues with far less opposition far more frequently.

Kind of like how Superman can cross the universe in a second, yet he can't even avoid Lex Luthers red solar energy lasers, with Luther even gloating "You're not faster than light!", and Superman agreeing with him?

Yeah, the pre crisis era was all over the place.

But even in modern times, there's things like, say, Rulk toying with Hulk, knocking out a Watcher, and beating Grandmaster to death, yet having trouble with Abomb? I wouldn't toss out the baby with the bathwater (Forgive the cliche), since as you said they were different times, and Superman being more formidable than most was his average..

Originally posted by cdtm
Kind of like how Superman can cross the universe in a second, yet he can't even avoid Lex Luthers red solar energy lasers, with Luther even gloating "You're not faster than light!", and Superman agreeing with him?



Wasnt that in the Spiderman crossover? Im no Superman expert but Im pretty sure that was Late 70's, near the end of SA, and already considerably less powerful than SA Supes at his Peak.

Superman speed-blitzes earth

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/th_272792-action_387_09supermancutsearthinhalf_super.jpg

Bump. I'm new here. But I'm surprised people here say that "SA Supes faills to impress them" all sillness aside, it was the 50's so who could blame them? (Looking at half of their usernames and profile pictures, I see why (Thehulk and Carver9). But I'm even more surprised at how people think that SA Supes loses to WB Hulk.

Also I remember seeing a battle here where people actually thought that Zoom & Flash can beat the Spectre and Phantom Stranger LMAO, when most people I know laughed at this notion (Classic Spectre was unharmed when SA Supes tried to blitz him, and this guy went faster than infinity.)

I use to log on Comic Vine fairly often and the general consensus there was that SBP >>>>> WB Hulk, and SA Supes (from feats and what not) >>>>> SBP. I may be using ABC logic here but show me what WB Hulk can even harm a guy who sneezed galaxies (this was aided by Myx or something), used his breath to blow the earth back into orbit, pulled powers out of his a__ every Thursday, went faster than infinity, could time travel and pulled planets like it was nothing.

Btw even though Supes' ridiculous feats were silly and defied logic, is a guy who gets stronger every time he's mad (anger is an emotion, shouldn't laughter be able to weaken him) and got exposed to radiation (shouldn't he have gotten cancer by now), make more sense than Supes does? It's a fictional book for crying out loud! Superpowers themselves defy the laws of physics and physics lol.

Btw, I'm ASSUMING by "Pre-Crisis Superman" you're talking about SA Supes/Earth One Supes. Unless it's Golden Age Superman, than WB Hulk stomps, UNLESS.

PC supes 10/10

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
PC supes 10/10

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Looney toons PC supes 10/10

Can current Hulk go WBHulk if he gets mad enough?

Originally posted by Supermex
Can current Hulk go WBHulk if he gets mad enough?

Savage does not possess the focus to consistently go up that high. Doc Green may be able to do this.

PC Superman

Pc Superman psycho stomps hulk 10/10

Originally posted by Supermex
Can current Hulk go WBHulk if he gets mad enough?

Don't think we will ever see World Breaker again. Pak is the ending of that, but, it appears Hulk in January will be turning into something else entirely off of his rage.

http://oyster.ignimgs.com/wordpress/stg.ign.com/2014/08/Avengers__X-Men_AXIS_4_Cover.jpg

Originally posted by carver9
Don't think we will ever see World Breaker again. Pak was the ending of that, but, it appears Hulk in January will be turning into something else entirely.

http://oyster.ignimgs.com/wordpress/stg.ign.com/2014/08/Avengers__X-Men_AXIS_4_Cover.jpg

Namely Kluh. Known as the Hulk's Hulk.

Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
Namely Kluh. Known as the Hulk's Hulk.



Think Onslaught will have a lot to do with that.