Darth Vader vs Blade

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lilshogun
Darth Vader ( older version ) vs Blade ( Wesley Snipes )
I think based on the movie version, Vader posseses
Force Choke
Force Push and Pull
Contact
Saber Throw
Mind Control (Telepathy)
Force Sense
Force Lightening
Force Jump Burst of Speed

steverules_2
You must hate blade

Robtard
Darth Blader wins.

KingD19
Originally posted by lilshogun
Darth Vader ( older version ) vs Blade ( Wesley Snipes )
I think based on the movie version, Vader posseses
Force Choke
Force Push and Pull
Contact
Saber Throw
Mind Control (Telepathy)
Force Sense
Force Lightening
Force Jump Burst of Speed

I think based on the movie version, which you're using the original suited Vader, you're wrong.

Force Choke he does possess.

Push and Pull too even though he never demonstrated them. Although the movie versions of the Force TK powers is rather unimpressive.

Contact?

Anakin never demonstrated the skill for a saber throw or even demonstrated one as far as I know.

He could sense danger, but never mind control.

Force Sense doesn't do any good.

He can't use lightning because he'd fry his cybernetic parts. Besides, Anakin never showed Force Lightning anyway.

And even though by the time of the original trilogy when Vader was used to his body. He wasn't able to do anything like Force Speed or Jump again.

Give Blade a vibroblade that can resist saber strikes, and he wins.

lilshogun
I would think the Force would edge him in favor. Darn!

Originally posted by KingD19
I think based on the movie version, which you're using the original suited Vader, you're wrong.

Force Choke he does possess.

Push and Pull too even though he never demonstrated them. Although the movie versions of the Force TK powers is rather unimpressive.

Contact?

Anakin never demonstrated the skill for a saber throw or even demonstrated one as far as I know.

He could sense danger, but never mind control.

Force Sense doesn't do any good.

He can't use lightning because he'd fry his cybernetic parts. Besides, Anakin never showed Force Lightning anyway.

And even though by the time of the original trilogy when Vader was used to his body. He wasn't able to do anything like Force Speed or Jump again.

Give Blade a vibroblade that can resist saber strikes, and he wins.

Impediment
Does Blade have all of his weapons, firearms, and Sword of the Daywalker?

Not that it matters, of course.

steverules_2
Originally posted by KingD19
Anakin never demonstrated the skill for a saber throw or even demonstrated one as far as I know.


ROTJ he did the saber throw, when Luke jumped up onto that walkway thing vader throws his saber to cut the support beams to get Luke down...I'm assuming thats what the saber throw thing is.

Blade loses this because saber > blades sword

I think Vaders amour is pretty durable as well, ESB Luke hit's vader in the arm and didn't do much damage. We saw no lasting effects or any wound. Vader gave a little scream of agony sure but it didn't do anything, plus it just seemed to piss vader off to the extent that he cut Luke's right hand off.

KingD19
Originally posted by steverules_2
ROTJ he did the saber throw, when Luke jumped up onto that walkway thing vader throws his saber to cut the support beams to get Luke down...I'm assuming thats what the saber throw thing is.

Blade loses this because saber > blades sword

I think Vaders amour is pretty durable as well, ESB Luke hit's vader in the arm and didn't do much damage. We saw no lasting effects or any wound. Vader gave a little scream of agony sure but it didn't do anything, plus it just seemed to piss vader off to the extent that he cut Luke's right hand off.


Really? I'd forgotten about that.

And usually a person is given weaponry that makes the fight not unfair, so Blade would get a Vibroblade that can swing against a saber. Which puts the fight back in his favor.

And Vader can get cut as easily as anyone else. With so few force powers, it's Blades fight to lose, as movie Vader didn't really do anything near Blades level swordplay wise.

steverules_2
Was the vibroblade ever in the movies? If not then Blade can't use it as it has to be in the movie for it to be used. Plus it may have to be stated that it can withstand a saber but I could be making up a rule there, I don't know.

KingD19
Doesn't work that way. It's feats not in the movies that can't be used; a vibroblade can block a saber, so he can use it to fight Vader. And fine, if he can't use a vibroblade, he can use an adamantium sword since he's in marvel. Either way, giving him a weapon that's gonna get sliced in half on the first sword cross is unfair. And vibroblades have always been stated and shown to block against sabers in the books and games.

Or give him a blade made of phrik, like the stun sticks that Grievous' guard droids used.

steverules_2
I'm guessing that adamantium could block a saber attack

Yeah he could also use a blade made of phrik

Psychotron
Can't Vader just grab him with the Force and do whatever he wants to him?

BruceSkywalker
this is a joke right????

KingD19
I'm honestly not sure. But from the movies the Force Push/Pull TK weren't really all that impressive.

Placidity
It might not have been impressive relative to other telekinetics we've seen, but its still adequate enough for Vader to immobilize/choke him from a distance and then saber throw for the kill.

KingD19
Vader can use the choke, but Blade seems the type to not fully be effected by it. Also, Vader hasn't shown the capability to use the choke while in the middle of a fight. He might have been able to do it as Anakin, but as Vader he lost a lot of his skill, power, and combat capability.

And, if Vader does get the choke off. Blade his a gun, and a glaive that he can chuck at him.

NemeBro
Vibroblades are no longer accepted by Star Wars canon. Lucas heard about a metal that could block sabers and said "LOLNO **** DAT SHIT".

Just saying.

KingD19
Vibroblades get used all the time. And there's tons of other metals that can block sabers. Also like I said, Blade can use an Adamantium Sword; it'll work just as fine.

ares834
Originally posted by NemeBro
Vibroblades are no longer accepted by Star Wars canon. Lucas heard about a metal that could block sabers and said "LOLNO **** DAT SHIT".

Just saying.
He said only lightsabers can block lightsabers... Cleary he forgot about his Magna-guards. Regardless the EU doesnt give a shit and vibroswords still appear.

NemeBro
Which makes all of that EU noncanon. big grin

And apparently parts of Revenge of the Sith.

KingD19
Lucas is old, he obviously forgets and makes up stuff as he goes along.

Like the Kessel Run in under 12 parsecs. When called on it and the fact that a parsec is a measurement of distance and not time. Lucas said that since the Kessel Run is near the Maw and other black holes, spatial distortion occurs, and they literally made it under 12 parsecs because they didn't technically go as far as they would have if they hadn't been near a black hole.




Blade wins.

Robtard
Force-Choke = win.

Stoic
Blade would lose this badly. Not only would Vader disallow him to move, but that light saber would cut right through his steel katana (at least I think it should). Or, as he used the force to immobilize Blade he would just cut Blade to ribbons.

KingD19
Again, this is movie Vader; in his suit.

He only briefly used Force Choke on a Moff, and that was out of battle. In battle all he did was fight, and rather stiffly and slowly. Blade's a much better duelist, and as I stated earlier, since Vader has a saber, give Blade a Cortosis Blade or Adamantium Blade(which he probably already uses since he uses one in the comic).

dadudemon
Originally posted by KingD19
Again, this is movie Vader; in his suit.

He only briefly used Force Choke on a Moff, and that was out of battle. In battle all he did was fight, and rather stiffly and slowly. Blade's a much better duelist, and as I stated earlier, since Vader has a saber, give Blade a Cortosis Blade or Adamantium Blade(which he probably already uses since he uses one in the comic).

Good points.


I don't think this fight is as one-sided as everyone thinks. I still think Vader wins.


The OP did not state Vader would fight in character. So we just have to take him at his best: CIS and PIS is off. Vader starts out with a force choke.


I think Blade can easily dodge a thrown saber. And Snipes is faster than Vader at sword skills. So if it comes down to bladed (pun?) combat, Blade would win. Same with H2H combat: Blade wins.


However, it never gets that far.

the ninjak
Vader kills or incapacitates Blade within a few steps.

Automatic projectile rounds are arguable to the Star Wars universe when it comes to Light Sabres but Vader should be able to choke hold Blade eventually.

I don't like arguing Star Wars characters. They are broken. But Blade stands a good chance.

Pwned
Ah hem: BRAIN TOSS YO ASS IN THE AIR -ERB.


Anyways, the Force gives Vader to much of an advantage. I believe he could hold his own in H2H, but Blade does take that, granted not without at least one wound.

Vader also has on a suit of armor, so Blade's blade won't necessarily cut straight through, not to mention glancing blows won't have as much of an effect.

Yes, I know Luke cut through it in ESB, but that's a lightsaber that can cut through just about any material. (Just for anyone who wants to be a dumbass and say since Luke cut it just fine so could Blade)

KingD19
Blade has access to an adamantium blade, and has enough strength to cut through Vader just fine given his feats in the movie.

And if we're using them PIS-less and CIS-less, Blade shoots him in the face to start off. A force choke won't stop someone like Blade from moving.

the ninjak
Originally posted by KingD19
Blade has access to an adamantium blade, and has enough strength to cut through Vader just fine given his feats in the movie.

And if we're using them PIS-less and CIS-less, Blade shoots him in the face to start off. A force choke won't stop someone like Blade from moving.

Not in the movie versions!!! No Adamantium here. This is the Movie Vs Forum. Blade doesn't have that. Vader showed the ability from a distance to stop laser blasts in his hands. Blasts enough to tear a large creatures guts apart.

KingD19
Originally posted by the ninjak
Not in the movie versions!!! No Adamantium here. This is the Movie Vs Forum. Blade doesn't have that. Vader showed the ability from a distance to stop laser blasts in his hands. Blasts enough to tear a large creatures guts apart.

Was it ever stated that his sword wasn't Adamantium? Even if it wasn't, giving him a blade that can't withstand a saber is spite. So it's only fair he be given either a cortosis sword, or adamantium.

And Vader held up his cybernetic hand and stopped a blaster bolt; nothing special about that. It's not like he stopped force lightning like Yoda.

And blasts enough to tear a large creatures guts apart? What are you talking about?

ares834
This is just dumb. Vader chokes Blade.

As for Han's blaster...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbhXJrAEw7Y&feature=player_embedded#at=440

KingD19
And while Vader is choking Blade, he gets shot in the face.

ares834
Ohoho... It's not like Vader hasn't done anything with guns before. Right?

KingD19
Suit Vader caught a single blaster bolt on his hand. Which as I stated and is obvious, is fully cybernetic.

Blade has full auto machine pistols with extended clips.

What's he gonna do to stop 30-50 bullets from hitting him in the face?

It was never explained in the movies because they were never used, but Force Users have a helluva hard time dealing with slug throwers.(Aka bullets) because they're faster than blaster bolts, and aren't big glowing lances of energy.

ares834
I don't recall Jedi ever having a hard time deflecting slugs in the EU. Hell, Obi-Wan seems to pretty easily deflect Durge's "machine gun" fire.

But no, I was talking about ripping a gun out of Blade's hand. And BTW, Vader blocks four bolts not one.

KingD19
Four bolts shot at his hand.

And ripping a gun out of Blades hand would be far more difficult than Han, since ya know, Blade his legitimate super strength.

And Obi-Wan at the time of facing Durge was the most skilled defensive Jedi in the history of the order. The whole point is, slugthrowers fire high speed rounds that aren't visible. Jedi can and have deflected them, but it's nowhere near as easy as with blasters.

And you honestly think Vader can block bullets going roughly 1,000 fps?

jaden101
I recall Vader force choking someone over a monitor while he was on a star destroyer and they were on the death star an untold distance away....or the other way about...definitely huge distances involved...so yeah...Vader wins.

KingD19
I never said Vader couldn't choke him. I just said he'd never choked someone in a fight; it would have been rather useful against Obi-Wan or Luke, or Han don't you think?

And despite the distance, and the choking, he won't stop those bullets.

Newjak
Well I mean suited Vader was still very powerful in the force, look what happened right after he got put in the suit in ROTS. He was able to crush all the metal objects in a room.

Blade can't use any of his guns with they have all been crushed.

Or if Blade got crushed with force choke.

Pwned
Not only that, but every time somebody was being choked, their hands went to their throat. I have a feeling there's a bit of panic when your choking, but there's nothing on your throat. Chances are Blade would try and free his throat as well.

Oh, and grip isn't the only thing Vader can do, clearly.


And as for the Blade hurting Vader just fine, I said glancing blows wouldn't have as much of an effect

dadudemon
Originally posted by ares834
This is just dumb. Vader chokes Blade.

As for Han's blaster...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbhXJrAEw7Y&feature=player_embedded#at=440

That DL-44 is an illegal arm, iirc. It also packs a stupidly powerful punch.


Additionally, compare it to a more conventional and common blaster pistol: DH-17.



Obviously, Vader's armor is ****ing durable.




I don't see Vader force pulling a gun out of Blade's hand, either.

ares834
Originally posted by Newjak
Well I mean suited Vader was still very powerful in the force, look what happened right after he got put in the suit in ROTS. He was able to crush all the metal objects in a room.

Blade can't use any of his guns with they have all been crushed.

Or if Blade got crushed with force choke.

^ Indeed.

Originally posted by KingD19
Four bolts shot at his hand.

And ripping a gun out of Blades hand would be far more difficult than Han, since ya know, Blade his legitimate super strength.

A fair point. But unless Blade is always holding on to his gun with such a grip or if he expects Vader to employ such a tactic it won't matter.



This was shortly after AotC at which point Obi-Wan was not yet the defensive master he would become. Regardless he blocked it with the Force, and Vader has shown more skill in such regard.



Reread my post.

jaden101
Originally posted by KingD19
I never said Vader couldn't choke him. I just said he'd never choked someone in a fight; it would have been rather useful against Obi-Wan or Luke, or Han don't you think?

And despite the distance, and the choking, he won't stop those bullets.

Yet the bullets would never be anywhere near him cos he'd choke Blade from thousands of miles away.

KingD19
For that he'd have to see him.

jaden101
Not the way the force is shown to work is it?

KingD19
Actually it was in that instance. He could choke him from thousands of miles away because he could see and focus on him.

To say he can just choke Blade without seeing him when we've never seen him do it is giving him abilities he wasn't shown to posses.

That's like me saying Blade can move like La Magra, although he obviously can't and was never shown doing so.

jaden101
We know you don't have to see someone to 1: be able to sense them with the force and 2: Be able to locate and use the force to communicate with people. We also know from canon EU that you don't need sight to target things (living or not) with force powers. (Rahm Kota)

dadudemon
Actually, he just has to sense him (not see him). Remember, Luke and Vader could talk to each other without seeing each other. Vader could sense Luke on ships really far away, as well (multiple kilometers).

Also, it has been ages, but Blade is immune to telepathy but I think that's only vampire telepathy. Still, Blade has a really strong will. There's no way a mind trick would work on someone like blade. I know that wasn't contested, but it was just something I thought of.


So, yes, I think that Vader could detect blade from a distance without seeing him. Anakin did it with Padme while being in the middle of an argument with Obi Wan...and he was just a Padawan, then.


Originally posted by jaden101
We know you don't have to see someone to 1: be able to sense them with the force and 2: Be able to locate and use the force to communicate with people. We also know from canon EU that you don't need sight to target things (living or not) with force powers. (Rahm Kota)

STFU, f*ggot. Your stealing my thunder with your ninja fast posts. uhuh

jaden101
Hurry up and finish that ****ing time machine then.

Utrigita
Darth Vader should win this without to much difficulty. Force Push (check), Force Pull (check), Force Crush (check), Force Choke (check) I don't really see what Blade is going to do.

Lord Shadow Z
Originally posted by KingD19
Actually it was in that instance. He could choke him from thousands of miles away because he could see and focus on him.

To say he can just choke Blade without seeing him when we've never seen him do it is giving him abilities he wasn't shown to posses.



Actually, I think that's a good point, otherwise Vader could have choked any of the rebels whenever he wanted to, and yet he didn't.

Sensing Luke from a great distance does not equate to him being able to choke him from that distance. The officer he did choke was from far away but Vader had a focal point to concentrate on in that case. If Vader could have choked the officer anytime after his foul-up, why then bring up the viewscreen? I think he needed that 'link' to direct it.

However, I don't think Blade can go anywhere within the general area to not be affected by the force choke if he's to be a threat in the contest.

The question is, would Blade be affected by the force choke? He is a vampire after all, he shouldn't be affected by lack of oxygen. Vader's force-object throwing seemed quite slow in the movies so I would imagine Blade would dodge those. Blade's sword is titanium in the movies which you would think would be useless against the lightsaber. Blade's best chance is with his firearms, yes, Vader countered against energy but is not proven against projectile weapons. If Blade somehow damages Vader's suit/breathing apparatus and/or relieves him of his lightsaber somehow I feel he has a chance.

the ninjak
Originally posted by Lord Shadow Z
Actually, I think that's a good point, otherwise Vader could have choked any of the rebels whenever he wanted to, and yet he didn't.

Sensing Luke from a great distance does not equate to him being able to choke him from that distance. The officer he did choke was from far away but Vader had a focal point to concentrate on in that case. If Vader could have choked the officer anytime after his foul-up, why then bring up the viewscreen? I think he needed that 'link' to direct it.

However, I don't think Blade can go anywhere within the general area to not be affected by the force choke if he's to be a threat in the contest.

The question is, would Blade be affected by the force choke? He is a vampire after all, he shouldn't be affected by lack of oxygen. Vader's force-object throwing seemed quite slow in the movies so I would imagine Blade would dodge those. Blade's sword is titanium in the movies which you would think would be useless against the lightsaber. Blade's best chance is with his firearms, yes, Vader countered against energy but is not proven against projectile weapons. If Blade somehow damages Vader's suit/breathing apparatus and/or relieves him of his lightsaber somehow I feel he has a chance.

Blade has proven that he needs to breathe considering after tough fights he breathes heavy. He gets winded.

Though he spent time in a vat of blood for a while but arguably that activated his inner vamp into overdrive.

His guns though are enough to mess a Jedi/Sith up. Laser beams ain;t crap compared to an modified Uzi. And knowing Blade he'll go for the chest plate which controls Vader's breathing system. A bullet in there and Vader starts choking.

Blade can also hit the air quickly and hide in the darkness like the beginning of Blade 2. Choke hold isn't so easy.

Lord Shadow Z
Originally posted by the ninjak
Blade has proven that he needs to breathe considering after tough fights he breathes heavy. He gets winded.

Though he spent time in a vat of blood for a while but arguably that activated his inner vamp into overdrive.

His guns though are enough to mess a Jedi/Sith up. Laser beams ain;t crap compared to an modified Uzi. And knowing Blade he'll go for the chest plate which controls Vader's breathing system. A bullet in there and Vader starts choking.

Blade can also hit the air quickly and hide in the darkness like the beginning of Blade 2. Choke hold isn't so easy.

I was thinking about the vat of blood in Blade 2, he had to have went without oxygen to drink it to get his strength back, that alone shows oxygen isn't a must for him because no human could do that. I'm not sure I've seen Blade breathing heavily in any of his contests through exhaustion alone, usually it was when he was injured like in the vampire archives in the first film, or when he needs the serum. Force choke doesn't do it for me, may be a hindrance but as it's a move which is based on concentration - it is very likely Blade can survive it long enough to keep breaking Vaders focus.

Well, Blade has a lot of munitions, no doubt - his automatic guns, handguns, shotgun, mini explosive devices, like he attached to Reinhardt in B2. Those would create enough damage.

Any significant damage to the breathing system like I mentioned earlier would be enough, although as long as Vader has his lightsaber Blade can't get to the other weak point - his easily removable helmet.

the ninjak
Originally posted by Lord Shadow Z
I was thinking about the vat of blood in Blade 2, he had to have went without oxygen to drink it to get his strength back, that alone shows oxygen isn't a must for him because no human could do that. I'm not sure I've seen Blade breathing heavily in any of his contests through exhaustion alone, usually it was when he was injured like in the vampire archives in the first film, or when he needs the serum. Force choke doesn't do it for me, may be a hindrance but as it's a move which is based on concentration - it is very likely Blade can survive it long enough to keep breaking Vaders focus.

Well, Blade has a lot of munitions, no doubt - his automatic guns, handguns, shotgun, mini explosive devices, like he attached to Reinhardt in B2. Those would create enough damage.

Any significant damage to the breathing system like I mentioned earlier would be enough, although as long as Vader has his lightsaber Blade can't get to the other weak point - his easily removable helmet.

There is also no proof that a Jedi/Sith can block automatic projectile gunfire.
In all the the Star Wars films they block single and slow automatic laser fire fine. But high speed bullets?

I don't see his removable helmet being a weakness in this fight though. If blade ever got close enough to do such a thing Vader can just Force Push him back.

If only Vader had the speed feats Anakin had in SWep1 he would be nearly unstoppable.

SW is very inconsistent with their feats.

Newjak
Originally posted by the ninjak
There is also no proof that a Jedi/Sith can block automatic projectile gunfire.
In all the the Star Wars films they block single and slow automatic laser fire fine. But high speed bullets?

I don't see his removable helmet being a weakness in this fight though. If blade ever got close enough to do such a thing Vader can just Force Push him back.

If only Vader had the speed feats Anakin had in SWep1 he would be nearly unstoppable.

SW is very inconsistent with their feats. The Jedi/Sith also blocked multiple shots coming from many different directions. They do have pre-cog abilities which is why Qui-Gon talks about Jedi reflexes.

the ninjak
Originally posted by Newjak
The Jedi/Sith also blocked multiple shots coming from many different directions. They do have pre-cog abilities which is why Qui-Gon talks about Jedi reflexes.

Yes but on screen they are slow as heck.

Lord Shadow Z
Originally posted by the ninjak
I don't see his removable helmet being a weakness in this fight though. If blade ever got close enough to do such a thing Vader can just Force Push him back.

If only Vader had the speed feats Anakin had in SWep1 he would be nearly unstoppable.

SW is very inconsistent with their feats.

That's the thing, he couldn't stop high speed bullets IMO. A blast of energy is highly visible, can easily be deflected off his lighsaber and stopped by his hands. It works to his advantage, but this doesn't. He never uses force push as armoured Vader only has force choke and telekinesis. With the telekinesis, removing a gun out of Solo's hand is one thing but trying that on Blade is another.

If we were talking about Anakin/Vader I still don't see how effective he will be. The addition of all his other abilties are something Blade can match as Blade has superhuman speed, strength, jumping ability and Anakin will no longer will be armoured, which would remove the breathing apparatus weakness but leave him exposed to gunfire/sword strikes.

Yes, they are very inconsistent with feats but that's GL for you.

Newjak
Originally posted by the ninjak
Yes but on screen they are slow as heck. Considering they were used and able to hit fleeing vehicles I'm gonna go with no they weren't that slow.

Look at the the droids firing in AOTC clone they were essentially laser machine guns. Now I'm not gonna make the claim they were as fast bullets, but they weren't slow.

It's not like Han Solo went oh their shooting at me. I can see the laser traveling at my face I'm gonna step to the side.

Lord Shadow Z
Originally posted by Newjak
Now I'm not gonna make the claim they were as fast bullets, but they weren't slow.



Of course but you have to remember that the laser blasts in SW follow a straight path so easier to counter; if a laser blaster fired shots at several trajectories at high speed even a Jedi/Sith couldn't keep them all out.

Newjak
Originally posted by Lord Shadow Z
Of course but you have to remember that the laser blasts in SW follow a straight path so easier to counter; if a laser blaster fired shots at several trajectories at high speed even a Jedi/Sith couldn't keep them all out. The Jedi/Sith have Precog why do you think they can no look block a blaster shot from behind like Anakin did in ROTS.

Plus bullets for the most part follow a straight path. It's not like they are gonna take a huge dip in trajectory over what is probably going to be distances involved here. I could be wrong I'm no bullet expert but I highly doubt they will.

Unless you're talking about the fact someone will shoot at different areas in which case that happened all the time in Star Wars.

Lord Shadow Z
Originally posted by Newjak
The Jedi/Sith have Precog why do you think they can no look block a blaster shot from behind like Anakin did in ROTS.

Plus bullets for the most part follow a straight path. It's not like they are gonna take a huge dip in trajectory over what is probably going to be distances involved here. I could be wrong I'm no bullet expert but I highly doubt they will.

Well I'm still not entirely sure which Vader we're meant to be discussing, armoured Vader doesn't show any precog whatsoever so that rules him out, Anakin/Vader has these things but I don't think it's likely he'll be able to follow every bullet that Blade dishes out to him. He isn't trained in dodging our deflecting projectile fire - he isn't John Preston.

I'm no gun expert either but bullets to dip and they do spread out and change trajectory with recoil and the like when fired in automatic and in the case of shotgun pellets as well. Plus Blade will be moving at speeds that will make it impossible for armoured Vader to pick up, Anakin/Vader will have an easier job but can't stop every single bullet from getting through - I can't see that myself.

the ninjak
Originally posted by Newjak
Considering they were used and able to hit fleeing vehicles I'm gonna go with no they weren't that slow.

Look at the the droids firing in AOTC clone they were essentially laser machine guns. Now I'm not gonna make the claim they were as fast bullets, but they weren't slow.

It's not like Han Solo went oh their shooting at me. I can see the laser traveling at my face I'm gonna step to the side.

Lets get real here the lasers the Jedis reflect are thick light beams. The hand can move a light sabre with precog swiftly to bounce those beams back. But with metal projectiles it's a different matter.
Originally posted by Newjak
Plus bullets for the most part follow a straight path. It's not like they are gonna take a huge dip in trajectory over what is probably going to be distances involved here. I could be wrong I'm no bullet expert but I highly doubt they will. You can hold an automatic weapon still and the bullets don't go completely straight, they move through a circular cone of influence at their target. And even if those bullets hit the lightsaber they turn to molten metal splattering into the target. Ouch!

And name a film where Vader moved that Saber with enough speed to really reflect so many bullets.

Now I'll grant the basic fact that I gave Vader the win early in this thread due to his force choke and gun grabbing feats. As should be if Blade had no idea who this guy was. Vader should win.

But if both were standing across for each other. Vader unleashes his Saber. Blade unsheathing his katana. Then suddenly Blade releases his automatic. I see a problem for Vader.
If Vader goes for a for a force choke he cops bullets. Due to Blade being undead.
If he goes for the gun grab Blade is insanely stronger than Han Solo and may just be dragged towards Vader with gun still in hand shooting.
If he tries to reflect the bullets physics states the Light Saber wouldn't be enough to withstand the random amount of bullets.
And those bullets took chunks of walls.

StarWars made the mistake of always using lasers as ammunition regardless of how poor the assailants were. And we don't know how durable that armor he wears truly is. Those buttons on his chest look mighty vulnerable.

It's an interesting argument. Star Wars has never had projectile bullets in it's canon.

Newjak
Originally posted by Lord Shadow Z
Well I'm still not entirely sure which Vader we're meant to be discussing, armoured Vader doesn't show any precog whatsoever so that rules him out, Anakin/Vader has these things but I don't think it's likely he'll be able to follow every bullet that Blade dishes out to him. He isn't trained in dodging our deflecting projectile fire - he isn't John Preston.

I'm no gun expert either but bullets to dip and they do spread out and change trajectory with recoil and the like when fired in automatic and in the case of shotgun pellets as well. Plus Blade will be moving at speeds that will make it impossible for armoured Vader to pick up, Anakin/Vader will have an easier job but can't stop every single bullet from getting through - I can't see that myself. The problem is they are still the same person, and precog was standard jedi abilities. It's why Obi-Wan blinded Luke, to teach him to use his feeling and instincts instead of sight. Anakin never would have lost it.

And I'm not saying Vader will block every bullet but at the same time the argument that the laser fire was so slow is kind of ridiculousness imo as they weren't really that slow.

Plus in the end all Vader has to do is Crush Blade's head like he did to all those 'metal' objects in ROTS

Lord Shadow Z
Originally posted by the ninjak
StarWars made the mistake of always using lasers as ammunition regardless of how poor the assailants were. And we don't know how durable that armor he wears truly is. Those buttons on his chest look mighty vulnerable.



A bit off topic but it's like Star Trek: First Contact where the Borg adapt to all the phaser modulations and Picard picks up a Tommy Gun in the holodeck and creams them - problem solved.

Regarding your other points I completely agree.

Lord Shadow Z
Originally posted by Newjak
The problem is they are still the same person, and precog was standard jedi abilities. It's why Obi-Wan blinded Luke, to teach him to use his feeling and instincts instead of sight. Anakin never would have lost it.

And I'm not saying Vader will block every bullet but at the same time the argument that the laser fire was so slow is kind of ridiculousness imo as they weren't really that slow.

Plus in the end all Vader has to do is Crush Blade's head like he did to all those 'metal' objects in ROTS

Same person in a factual sense yes, but the inherent differences of each version are enough to still confuse the issue; and I presented arguments for both anyway so there should be no problem.

No character in SW has ever used a 'head crush' technique so there's no basis for it's use. Because you can't present the conditions required for such a technique to be used if it doesn't exist. Metal has been crushed, okay, but what allows it to be crushed? Does this technique work on metal because it's inanimate, if so, why? What's the range of this metal crushing technique?

You can't answer because Vader only shows this briefly in a closed-off room in ROTS, and not at all in the OT I believe. It doesn't give a lot of information for it's effectiveness so it's pointless.

the ninjak
The reason why Jedis/Sith CAN own droids and inanimate objects without limit and NOT living creatures is simple.....

....midichlorines big grin

Newjak
Originally posted by Lord Shadow Z
Same person in a factual sense yes, but the inherent differences of each version are enough to still confuse the issue; and I presented arguments for both anyway so there should be no problem.

No character in SW has ever used a 'head crush' technique so there's no basis for it's use. Because you can't present the conditions required for such a technique to be used if it doesn't exist. Metal has been crushed, okay, but what allows it to be crushed? Does this technique work on metal because it's inanimate, if so, why? What's the range of this metal crushing technique?

You can't answer because Vader only shows this briefly in a closed-off room in ROTS, and not at all in the OT I believe. It doesn't give a lot of information for it's effectiveness so it's pointless. Because they aren't going to let someone crush someone's head like a grape in a Star Wars movie it isn't rated R.

But we have seen force choke which is just a force crush limited to the throat.

The point is that he was crushing everything in the room. So Blade's head guns all that crushed.

Lord Shadow Z
Originally posted by Newjak
Because they aren't going to let someone crush someone's head like a grape in a Star Wars movie it isn't rated R.

But we have seen force choke which is just a force crush limited to the throat.

The point is that he was crushing everything in the room. So Blade's head guns all that crushed.

Oh, come on, you're saying that SW, with it's various examples of imprisonment, torture, strangulation, executions, burning to death, dismemberments, genocide, electrocution is just a happy, playful kiddies tale? Employing that in a movie with the themes mentioned is nothing, all they'd have to do is a show a character holding his head screaming followed by a 'crack' then a body slumping to the floor;the ruined skull doesn't need to be even shown.

So, it's not a technique of Vader's (or any Sith), if he didn't use it in the movie it's not viable to this discussion IMO. Furthermore, he has also never crushed any weapons in SW either when he has had the chance so Blade's guns/sword are very safe.

Newjak
Originally posted by Lord Shadow Z
Oh, come on, you're saying that SW, with it's various examples of imprisonment, torture, strangulation, executions, burning to death, dismemberments, genocide, electrocution is just a happy, playful kiddies tale? Employing that in a movie with the themes mentioned is nothing, all they'd have to do is a show a character holding his head screaming followed by a 'crack' then a body slumping to the floor;the ruined skull doesn't need to be even shown.

So, it's not a technique of Vader's (or any Sith), if he didn't use it in the movie it's not viable to this discussion IMO. Furthermore, he has also never crushed any weapons in SW either when he has had the chance so Blade's guns/sword are very safe. Ok I'll agree they did show some hardcore stuff, but what exactly keeps Vader from doing what he did to all those machines and metal to someone's head?

We already know the force can effect living beings so that explanation is out.

And Vader can still crush all of Blade's guns easily enough. There's no evidence to say he can't.

Lord Shadow Z
Originally posted by Newjak
Ok I'll agree they did show some hardcore stuff, but what exactly keeps Vader from doing what he did to all those machines and metal to someone's head?

We already know the force can effect living beings so that explanation is out.

And Vader can still crush all of Blade's guns easily enough. There's no evidence to say he can't.

I don't think it's applicable because it's not a technique he used.

However, I'll relent for now and let's say he can do the head crush. The same methodology applies to the force choke - it takes pinpoint concentration (and we've established that Vader needs to face the target in order to do it, as all of his force chokes have that common link in the movies).

Blade can move around Vader and keep out of his vision while attacking with his guns. Vader cannot force choke/crush whilst moving around, keeping Blade at bay with his lightsaber and using telekinesis(if he drops any one of these defences Blade will move in). Blade is a vampire and should be able to resist attempts to crush his head (he soaked up a lot of damage vs Nomak), by giving Vader other things to concentrate on. Focus is the key, as we've only seen Vader do one Sith power at a time, he can't combo his abilities.

The crushing the guns/sword option can't be substantiated with just a brief scene in a small room. That gives no indication of his metal crushing ability at distance and again, it isn't a tactic of Vader's to do this. He didn't crush any gun/weapon in the OT, or in the PT either, he used other means like lightsaber or telekinesis. For example, he could have crushed Han's blaster in ESB, or Luke's lightsaber in ESB but he didn't.

Vader's moved objects at range but never crushed them, that indicates to me he can't and that should be case in this contest. Blade doesn't need to get close to use them and they can't be flipped out his hand because he's too strong for that.

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