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Who is overall more powerful...

Durability
Energy output (minus God Blast)
Strength
Speed
Versatility
Combat effectiveness

Durability - Thor
Energy output (minus God Blast) - In fights, Thor, because he can multiply attacks against him back at his opponent. Without that, and minus God Blast, Surfer.
Strength - Thor
Speed - Surfer
Versatility - Oh dear. Tie. I'm slightly Thor biased, so maybe Surfer.
Combat effectiveness - This is the most speculative. I go with Thor. Arguments for Surfer are pretty much equally as valid though.

Who's overall more powerful? They're peers mostly, but if I had to pick between the two, I'd give it to Thor.

Durability - Surfer should be more invulnerable (Thor's gone up in this category so the gap is no longer as big) but the Odinson's tougher and ultimately can take a punch/energy blast just as well. Sometimes better, at least with Mjolnir.

Energy output (minus God Blast) - Standards blasts, split or maybe Surfer. Those big high end energies that Thor/Mjolnir can pull out pack more of a punch though. Mjolnir's insane energy absorption also gives it an edge.

Strength - Thor.

Speed - Surfer. He definitely has the faster flight speed feats as well but I'd bet on Mjolnir keeping pace with him.

Versatility - Closer than most would suspect but Surfer. Based on their overall history, he does the exotic more often. Wouldn't put it past Mjolnir to replicate anything the Power Cosmic can do though.

Combat effectiveness - Harder to evaluate something like this but due to personal preference and his wider comfort zone, I'm picking Thor.

Originally posted by carver9
Who is overall more powerful...

Durability
Energy output (minus God Blast)
Strength
Speed
Versatility
Combat effectiveness

Durability-Surfer
Energy output (minus Godblast)- Surfer, with Godblast then Thor
Strength-Thor
Speed- Surfer
Versatility- Surfer
Combat effectiveness- difficult to evaluate and pretty subjective id say. Surfer id say can pull more tricks and unique attacks outta the bag...but on the other hand he is more of a pacifist. Thor is a legit warrior but he does tend to go into brawl mode alot. Hence id say they are even.

Overall they are peers with different advantages over each other which makes the question of who is more powerful come down to playing favorites, though if you gave me Surfers powerset..and gave rage Thors powerset.....Rage would be dead before he could even shout...."for Odin".heh

I guess it depends on who's writing or who you ask. Overall, I pick Thor for this thread.

For everthing else, this:
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/Badabing_2006/kmcprofile/th_batman-vs-thanos-vs-brainac-vs-reed-vs-doom-vs-darkseid-4956.jpg

Originally posted by carver9
Who is overall more powerful...

Durability
Energy output (minus God Blast)
Strength
Speed
Versatility
Combat effectiveness

Durability - Small edge to Thor

Energy output (minus God Blast) - Surfer: It's what he does

Strength - Thor

Speed - Big edge to Surfer

Versatility - Surfer: he can do pretty much anything. Also, he got something over Thor: he can see both in past and in the future, and do high speed calculating

Combat effectiveness: Small edge to Thor. Surfer showed, IMO, that he can beat the shit out of an opponent with more ways that Thor, but too often he fights like a retard. Thor too, but he usually wins. So it goes to Thor.

Originally posted by Naija boy
though if you gave me Surfers powerset..and gave rage Thors powerset.....Rage would be dead before he could even shout...."for Odin".heh

I'd f*ck you up everyday of the week, and twice on Thursday's.

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/241/allmightythor.jpg

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I'd f*ck you up everyday of the week, and twice on Thursday's.

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/241/allmightythor.jpg

Heh..if you even took the fight you would find out that the dials on Zenn laa dont stop at 11 homie

Good topic!

Durability - Surfer
Surfer can tank black holes and being in the heart of stars etc etc, he's also tanked Hulk's punches, which regularly injure Thor.

Energy output (minus God Blast) - Surfer
He blasts a lot but, never with much conviction or intent, yet when a by-product of one of his blasts is a blackhole that even Thanos wants to avoid falling into, it suggests some insane power-output. That and the staggering feat of evolving a whole planet billions of years, make Surfer a clear winner with or without the GB. Also, his casual obliteration of a planet is pretty fierce.

Strength - Thor
Not too sure about this one because Surfer rarely gets into a fist-fight or any sort of physical fight but, comparing both against Hulk (the benchmark for strength) I'd say Surfer did better by some margin. Then again, compare how Thanos twatted Surfer and how Thor holds up against him ...
Overall, I think Surfer's mentality makes him a less formidable foe in physical encounters so, ultimately Thor's more likely to demonstrate higher strength.

Speed - Surfer by a huge margin
There's really no need to explain here, is there? thousands of lightyears in a second, surfing the cosmos and mapping the universe ... Surfer is clearly orders of magnitude faster than Thor.

Versatility - Surfer by a margin
Everything Thor can do, Surfer can replicate (either in effect or in form), from controlling the weather to banishing people to other dimensions, from astral attacks to physical attacks and more.
On top of all this, Surfer has the hyperverse, the microverse, power duplication, genetic manipulation, TP, TK ... he can also travel in time and he can be "everywhere" within the planet (even a snowflake)... So Surfer wins by a margin.

Combat effectiveness - draw
This depends entirely on the type of opposition they face. Against Hulk, Surfer would be far far far more effective. Against Thanos, CIS and PIS would never permit Surfer to mount an effective offensive whatsoever.

Against an armada of ships encircling a planet, Surfer would easily be the better man to deploy as he can instantly knock them out of commission through a variety of attacks.

Against high-end celestials, Surfer has good showings against T&A whilst Thor's got his showing against Glory.

Against mid-market celestials (I'm guessing we still accept that Watchers >> Skyfathers), Surfer has a victory and has been shown to be more than capable so I'd give him the nod there.
... Anyway, I'm sure Thor has his share too... so I say draw.

Summary:
Durability: Surfer
Energy Output: Surfer
Strength: Thor
Speed: Surfer
Versatility: Surfer
Combat Effectiveness: draw

Originally posted by leonidas

ditto

I definitely see things differently than a lot of you.
But, the funny thing is that everybody still seems split don the middle.


Durability- Surfer

Energy output (minus God Blast)- Surfer

Strength- Thor is definitely the more "physical" character.

Speed- Thor I think being able to open a portal to anyplace he wants is above the speed Surfer can travel.

Versatility- Thor.
It seems he is constantly using some new power or skill.
Thor has been shown to manipulate both Magic and Natural energies, where Surfer has not.
Thor also remains active in the physical universe while also completely at home in alternate dimensions, Hells, etc.
He seems to be able to do whatever it is he wants to do at any given moment, or whatever the situation needs at the time.

Combat effectiveness- Thor is obviously the more militaristic of the two and utilizes all his powers and strengths with a warriors mindset.

Thor all the way. The only category that Surfer wins is versatility and that's only because he can phase and heal and stuff.

In terms of raw energy output, strength, durability, speed and combat effectiveness it's not even close. Look at who Thor has gone up against and even if he didn't beat them he harmed/damaged them : Exitar, Glory, Galactus, the Celestials. He's withstood brutal punishment without being KOed (example vs the Celestials where he withstood MULTIPLE blasts and still wasn't knocked unconscious).

The Surfer is not in Thor's league. The Surfer is Tier A, Thor is Tier S.

Durability - I think Thor has higher showings but also lower showings than surfer. But I think surfer is more durable but thor is tougher but physically not as durable.
Energy output (minus God Blast) - Surfer
Strength - Thor, pound for pound would out muscle Surfer on most days.
Speed - Surfer, travels and imo thinks faster.
Versatility - Surfer, can do just as much combat related stuff as thor and then some but also has a bunch of other cool abilities.
Combat effectiveness - The combo of physical ability and tactical use of his exotic moves makes for better combat effectiveness. If surfer was a bit more battle hungry or a touch more ruthless i would give it to Surfer.

Edit

Durability - Surfer but it's close..
Energy output (minus God Blast) - Surfer
Strength - Thor
Speed - Surfer
Versatility - Surfer..he can do virtually anything..
Combat effectiveness - Surfer..u can't get any more effective than a guy who can do anything..

Originally posted by Naija boy
Heh..if you even took the fight you would find out that the dials on Zenn laa dont stop at 11 homie



Carver strikes again! How do you manage to repeatedly make the same thread with slightly different phrasing and still get a myriad of responses? I must know the answer to this.

Surfer has more powers, Thor is more powerful imo.

Thor.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Surfer has more powers, Thor is more powerful imo.

This is true.
In a heads up battle Thor wins
In a prep battle... Surfer has te brains and powerset to find a way to neutralize Thor if he really went rogue (like exiles surfer vs gladiator). Though it would never happen that way

Originally posted by -Pr-
Surfer has more powers, Thor is more powerful imo.

Originally posted by carver9
Who is overall more powerful...

Durability
Energy output (minus God Blast)
Strength
Speed
Versatility
Combat effectiveness

Durability=Tie (Surfer has feats were he survived being separated into pieces)
Energy output=Surfer (planet destroying anyone)
Strength=Thor but Surfer can amp and has feats that Thor can't do normally (ko Bill with a punch)
Speed=Surfer
Versatility=Surfer
Combat effectiveness=What does this mean?

These categories don't weigh the same and thus even if Thor wins more categories doesn't mean he is more powerful. Speed is the greatest category of them all. That alone makes Surfer more powerful. With that said

WHAT IS THE DEFINITION OF 'MORE POWERFUL'?

Durability: Surfer is probably more resistant to harm but Thor's threshold let's him tank attacks above what Surfer can normally handle. But I'll split this category.

Energy Output: Thor: You need a reason see Glory, Galactus, Exitar, Also see him being able to contain a bomb that was going to destroy 1/5th the universe if that doesn't take a ton of energy output I don't know what does.

Strength: Thor, I don't think this one is up for debate. Norin is not weak by any means, but Thor is his better physically

Speed: Travel speed I would say is fairly split, Thinking/Reaction speed Surfer

Versatility: There's definitely no doubt Surfer has more tricks in the bag then Thor does, but Thor is also no slouch and his hammer also gives him the versatility to pretty much deal with just about any situation you can find yourself in.

Combat Effectiveness: Thor hands down, and it has nothing to do with PIS/CIS

What it does come down to is this, besides speed Thor is tops or near tops in just about every category.

There is not a front Thor can not fight on and hold his own,

Whether it is a brawl, energy swapping match, versatility match-up he can compete and beat just about everyone in these categories.

What does this mean, it means that even if Thor can not take a certain person in one area he has such a slew of other options and ways he can take a match and fight, and not too many ways someone is going to trump him and exploit an area to beat him.

Add Magic which is something that gives most people fits, and the fact he is also a very good warrior.

I think its safe to say that in a combat situation Thor is better cause he is overall just equipped for different things.

The one thing that keeps the field kind of level against him is the fact that out of the most powerful herald level types he is also one of the slowest

Originally posted by carver9
Who is overall more powerful...

Durability
Energy output (minus God Blast)
Strength
Speed
Versatility
Combat effectiveness

Durability: almost a tie, maybe Surfer but Thor has more damage soak.
Energy output: Surfer (minus god blast).
Strength: Thor but the gap is tiny.
Speed: Surfer
Versatility: Surfer. Thor can't turn into snow. But the gap isn't that big either.
Combat effectiveness: Thor, only because he fights like a warrior, while Surfer fights like a pacifist.

I don't think Thor's more powerful, I just think that he uses his powers more aggressively in fights compared to Surfer who's always a pacifist, so it gives that illusion. If Surfer acted more aggressively he'd look just as powerful or more, but instead he acts like some sort of space faring silver Dalai Lama whenever he fights.

Originally posted by h1a8
Speed is the greatest category of them all.

Not really.

Originally posted by h1a8
Durability=Tie (Surfer has feats were he survived being separated into pieces)
Energy output=Surfer (planet destroying anyone)
Strength=Thor but Surfer can amp and has feats that Thor can't do normally (ko Bill with a punch)
Speed=Surfer
Versatility=Surfer
Combat effectiveness=What does this mean?

These categories don't weigh the same and thus even if Thor wins more categories doesn't mean he is more powerful. Speed is the greatest category of them all. That alone makes Surfer more powerful. With that said

WHAT IS THE DEFINITION OF 'MORE POWERFUL'? Your posts are fascinating and often spit in the face of common sense and logic.

Originally posted by zopzop
Thor all the way. The only category that Surfer wins is versatility and that's only because he can phase and heal and stuff.

In terms of raw energy output, strength, durability, speed and combat effectiveness it's not even close. Look at who Thor has gone up against and even if he didn't beat them he harmed/damaged them : Exitar, Glory, Galactus, the Celestials. He's withstood brutal punishment without being KOed (example vs the Celestials where he withstood MULTIPLE blasts and still wasn't knocked unconscious).

The Surfer is not in Thor's league. The Surfer is Tier A, Thor is Tier S.

It's not April Fools day yet buddy!!

Thor is more powerful then the Surfer. The only real stat they compete in is versatility since that's more up ti interpretation with the power cosmic being able to do anything.
Speed I'm actually leaning to Thor heavily now. Especially considering how he recently handled him.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
It's not April Fools day yet buddy!!
Agreed. Both are incredibly powerful but if anyone's more powerful, its not by a wide margin.

This is one matchup I generally see as a tie.

Thor's more ferocious, but he's not more powerful. Surfer's a reluctant combatant whereas Thor revels in it, so he appears more formidable. I'd say they're about even in the actual power level department, with each having certain tactical advantages/disadvantages (like Surfer's inherrent versatility vs. Thor's dependence on Mjolnir. Thor's warrior mentality vs. Surfer's pacifist existentialism. Etc.).

It's like comparing an orange to a seedless orange.

Originally posted by roughrider
This is one matchup I generally see as a tie.

Pretty much.

Well the way I see it, we have to take into account the fact that surfer is a pacifist. It changes things a lot. As much as Thor may hold back, surfer holds back even more. Thor is far more likely to be going for broke in fights so because of that, his high end showings are a bit better than surfer's. They're pretty muh equals IMO.

Originally posted by JayDaDon
As much as Thor may hold back, surfer holds back even more.

Not sure about that.

I am.

Thor is more powerful, Surfer has better versatility.

Originally posted by Mindset
I am.

Any particular reason why?

Silver Surfer is like Dr. Manhattan. If treated like a real energy + molecule manipulator he is supposed to be. He takes it. His powers are well to versatile. Surfer can microshrink himself into a microverse and that is a crazy feat.

Mjolnir can almost certainly do that as well. Just saying.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Not really. That's because you haven't envisioned the world frozen in time where you can do anything you want without anyone to stop you.

Originally posted by h1a8
That's because you haven't envisioned the world frozen in time where you can do anything you want without anyone to stop you.

I like to deal with what comics show us over unlikely scenarios based on science, physics, and logic, than frankly, means nothing to most characters, especially a space faring alien and a god of thunder.

Unless you really think that out of everything Surfer can do, it's his speed which is the most important aspect of his power set...which...yeah....

If the characters are of similar/comparable levels of power and are both resolutely attempting to 'best' each other in a fight, then the deciding factor would be speed.

That said, in comics, the story/plot subordinates logic/continuity/reason and so some characters are both stated to be capable of insane speeds and reflexes and yet continually fail to demonstrate any of it in a fight.

Surfer has total awareness over a planetary area (at the very least), he can be "everywhere" on Earth at the same time and feel/process everything instantly. He should be trans/skyfather, if he used his powers well.

Characters like Genis Vell (and his use of cosmic awareness) or Molecule Man (and his ability with matter manipulation) are examples of what the powers he controls can do, when refined and properly utilised.

Just think about how much power he must possess in order to evolve a planet billions of years or to heal a Watcher (or even Thor) from near fatal injury.

If Thor were to use his powers to his utmost ability, he'd also be Trans/Skyfather level.

And I'll be the first to concede Surfer's wider array of abilities and versatility as compared to Thor. I just don't buy into the theory that Surfer's speed is his most powerful ability at his disposal when compared to everything else he can do. Speed's important, sure, but really, comics don't support it being the be-all/end-all, even when dealing with massive levels of superspeed. I know people are prone to call PIS every time someone with speed doesn't perform the legendary combo-to-ko or use speed at their maximum efficiency, but that's just the reality of the situation. Trying to apply real world science and logic on characters, even the human ones, who routinely shit on them is an exercise in futility.

Surfer's tried rushing Thor, hit and run tactics, dodging etc. It's never won him the fight. Even against Bill his immense speed was no game ending edge.

Surfer's fast, very fast, but Thor can handle it. I think at some point a writer should toss in a panel describing Norrin's speed (Gazillion times faster than light! That's the kind of stuff that people like right?) while Thor's bashing him in the face.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Surfer's tried rushing Thor, hit and run tactics, dodging etc. It's never won him the fight. Even against Bill his immense speed was no game ending edge.

Surfer's fast, very fast, but Thor can handle it. I think at some point a writer should toss in a panel describing Norrin's speed (Gazillion times faster than light, that's the kind of stuff that some people like no?) while Thor counters it.

Right, but for some reason, in a forum fight, that should change. And it's not just Surfer/Thor, but speed in general that suddenly becomes blown completely out of proportion.

And until Thor explicitly counters or weathers a blitz which the writer specifically quantifies at x times the speed of light or something, Thor will always lose to someone with speed....

...even though he's beaten or fared very well almost virtually every speedster he battled against.

Still need to see an all out fight between the two. IMO we can't make any conclusions about the two until surfer REALLY cuts loose on Thor. I haven't seen one fight where he wasn't trying to talk thor down.

Originally posted by Naija boy
though if you gave me Surfers powerset..and gave rage Thors powerset.....Rage would be dead before he could even shout...."for Odin".heh

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I'd f*ck you up everyday of the week, and twice on Thursday's.

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/241/allmightythor.jpg

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/1/hehdv.jpg

That picture doesn't give the impression that Nate would beat anything but his dick.

lmao

The Speed Factor.

Surfer can travel through space at incredible speeds. But, I have never read even one word about his speed in battle, reflexes, etc.

Thor has been stated, again and again, to have speed feats in perception as well as reflexes, spinning the hammer and movement in battle. The speeds have been described as "speed of thought" and "twice the speed of light" and others that I'm sure have been listed in this forum.

Surfer just hasn't done anything like that.

As far as Surfers flight speed is concerned, there have been statements and feats, on panel, that show his speed might not give him an edge against Thor at all.

Ok this is getting ridiculous...thor does not have faster perceptions than surfer....not even freaking close. Thor has a very limited amount of superspeed showings which pale in comparison to those of surfer. Surfer has tracked and perceived light speed electronic signals, reacted in nano- seconds, shown the ability to think at super speeds, and performed legitimate speed blitzes on multiple opponents. They are not on the same speed level at all and to even hint at such is inane but to hint that Thor is faster is bordering on madness.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Ok this is getting ridiculous...thor does not have faster perceptions than surfer....not even freaking close. Thor has a very limited amount of superspeed showings which pale in comparison to those of surfer. Surfer has tracked and perceived light speed electronic signals, reacted in nano- seconds, shown the ability to think at super speeds, and performed legitimate speed blitzes on multiple opponents. They are not on the same speed level at all and to even hint at such is inane but to hint that Thor is faster is bordering on madness.



Someone said Thor has faster reaction time than Surfer? Who? I agree, that is silly.

I do however think at this point his speed isn't going to be a game ending power. An advantage, but if Blood and Thunder (Along with their other fights but this sticks out because he resorted to hit and run tactics) is any indication, it's not an insurmountable one.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus


Someone said Thor has faster reaction time than Surfer? Who? I agree, that is silly.

I do however think at this point his speed isn't going to be a game ending power. An advantage, but if Blood and Thunder (Along with their other fights but this sticks out because he resorted to hit and run tactics) is any indication, it's not an insurmountable one.

It was in the post directly above mine and mentioned somewhere else in this thread i believe. I certainly dont think that in character ,Surfers speed in and of itself is going to be the end of Thor but going as far as suggesting Thor has better reflexes or perceptions or whatever is nothing short of ludicrous.

Surfer is supposedly nano-seconds level in reaction time.

Thor is more like, single digit milliseconds level in reaction time.

That should be an astronomical difference, Thor may as well be a statue from Surfer's viewpoint. But this gap won't be evident in comics.

Originally posted by zopzop
. He's withstood brutal punishment without being KOed (example vs the Celestials where he withstood MULTIPLE blasts and still wasn't knocked unconscious).



and what if we take the u foes taking him down? its a DOUBLE edge sword you cant peak only the high ones which are clearly PIS

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
. I think at some point a writer should toss in a panel describing Norrin's speed (Gazillion times faster than light! That's the kind of stuff that people like right?) while Thor's bashing him in the face.

but until your fiction comes to life we got the real thor which is a dumb brick that gets owned twice by tutinax and raped by the u foes

Originally posted by JakeTheBank

...even though he's beaten or fared very well almost virtually every speedster he battled against.

even thought he got much more feats of actually getting blitzed by king hyperion, gladiator,spider-man,wolverine atc atc

jake you are a good poster but when it comes down to thor you are just as much biased and double standarded as quan with thanos , Lol at saying thor is trans/skyfather and Lol at WM Thor being a mid trans GTFO

Don't bash.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
If Thor were to use his powers to his utmost ability, he'd also be Trans/Skyfather level.

And I'll be the first to concede Surfer's wider array of abilities and versatility as compared to Thor. I just don't buy into the theory that Surfer's speed is his most powerful ability at his disposal when compared to everything else he can do. Speed's important, sure, but really, comics don't support it being the be-all/end-all, even when dealing with massive levels of superspeed. I know people are prone to call PIS every time someone with speed doesn't perform the legendary combo-to-ko or use speed at their maximum efficiency, but that's just the reality of the situation. Trying to apply real world science and logic on characters, even the human ones, who routinely shit on them is an exercise in futility.

It's only a reality in some cases because the writer knows that Character A will dominate Character B easily and refuses to allow this to happen for the sake of the story. But in other cases the writer makes known of what Character A can really do if he/she wanted.

Comics ARE built off of science and logic (or at least it tries to be at times), otherwise the suspension of disbelief fails. It's just that the science isn't always correct or discovered yet (like magic). Everyone knows how strong a character is based off the things they have lift, pulled, hit, etc... Even when using comparisons to other characters the root is still which natural feats were done at the root. Why do you think Superman is slightly stronger or equal to Thor when they have never fought or engaged in strength? Is it because of the natural lifting, pulling,... feats they have that compare? Isn't that based off science or logic?

Is it reasonable for a character to view bullets as frozen in time yet gets hits, while alert, to an attack moving at a small fraction of a bullets speed? Is it because of the character's ability that he got hit or is it because the writer chose to ignore their ability to falsely create adversity? The writer knows the truth and yet chooses what is best for the comic company, even if that means to go against logic at time.

This is the spirit of why we have the rule "Character's fight at their best ability AS SHOWN BEFORE".
There is no writer to purposely ignore a character's natural ability just because it suits the story.


IMO, it is speed that prevents Thor from being Trans level or even Skyfather level. Without speed and him using his powers at their utmost he is still only a herald level being.

Originally posted by h1a8
It's only a reality in some cases because the writer knows that Character A will dominate Character B easily and refuses to allow this to happen for the sake of the story. But in other cases the writer makes known of what Character A can really do if he/she wanted.

Comics ARE built off of science and logic (or at least it tries to be at times), otherwise the suspension of disbelief fails. It's just that the science isn't always correct or discovered yet (like magic). Everyone knows how strong a character is based off the things they have lift, pulled, hit, etc... Even when using comparisons to other characters the root is still which natural feats were done at the root. Why do you think Superman is slightly stronger or equal to Thor when they have never fought or engaged in strength? Is it because of the natural lifting, pulling,... feats they have that compare? Isn't that based off science or logic?

Is it reasonable for a character to view bullets as frozen in time yet gets hits, while alert, to an attack moving at a small fraction of a bullets speed? Is it because of the character's ability that he got hit or is it because the writer chose to ignore their ability to falsely create adversity? The writer knows the truth and yet chooses what is best for the comic company, even if that means to go against logic at time.

This is the spirit of why we have the rule "Character's fight at their best ability AS SHOWN BEFORE".
There is no writer to purposely ignore a character's natural ability just because it suits the story.


IMO, it is speed that prevents Thor from being Trans level or even Skyfather level. Without speed and him using his powers at their utmost he is still only a herald level being.

Right cause it is based on feat and logic that a man can change his clothes at the super sonic or even light speeds and the clothes not shred. Or for a man to travel and fight at supersonic or light speeds and not cause a backlash from breaking the speed of sound.

Just... No. There is nothing logical about comics.

Superman actually did that once.

To make my point clear, I have not ignored Surfers perceptions or speed.
I am simply playing "Devil's Advocate" here.
What I was addressing was the complete lack of Surfer using his speed in a physical manner during combat. His travel speed and perceptions are well known. But, in a h2h battle situation, Surfer has not taken advantage of this ability, for whatever reason.
Then, I simply went on to state that Thor has been written to show speed feats and high level perceptions of speed feats in the past. Over and over.
Personally, I always thought that this was being done as Marvel's direct attempt to have Thor "keep up" with his DC counterpart, you-know-who.
But, whatever the reason, it is a simple thing to find examples of what I am saying.
Trust me, I am actually a big Surfer fan and I have LITERALLY read, as far as I can tell, EVERY comic that has ever included him. And, I can't count how many times my jaw has dropped while I read about Surfer being beaten by somebody who had NO BUSINESS beating him. And, the one thing that always came to mind, was that he was always written as a noble, peaceful, almost child-like character with vast power. An innocent.
But, Thor has always been written as a warrior first, anything else came last.
If you want to waste a week of your life (as I probably havefacepalm2), you can search and find that many of the greatest feats one of these characters has, the other has also, or feats on similar levels. Everything from energy manipulation, matter manipulation, speed, destruction on gigantic scales, soaking up punishment, working with time, etc.

The Eternal Comparison.

Durability: Surfer
Energy output (minus God Blast): Leaning toward Thor
Strength: Thor
Speed: Surfer
Versatility: Surfer
Combat effectiveness: Leaning toward Thor, though I'm not quite sure what this means.

Originally posted by rotiart
Right cause it is based on feat and logic that a man can change his clothes at the super sonic or even light speeds and the clothes not shred. Or for a man to travel and fight at supersonic or light speeds and not cause a backlash from breaking the speed of sound.

Just... No. There is nothing logical about comics.

logic and science are two different things. Reread my post. I claimed that the science is sometimes faulty. But the logic exists otherwise the suspension of disbelief will fail.

Originally posted by Horrificus
To make my point clear, I have not ignored Surfers perceptions or speed.
I am simply playing "Devil's Advocate" here.
What I was addressing was the complete lack of Surfer using his speed in a physical manner during combat. His travel speed and perceptions are well known. But, in a h2h battle situation, Surfer has not taken advantage of this ability, for whatever reason.
Then, I simply went on to state that Thor has been written to show speed feats and high level perceptions of speed feats in the past. Over and over.
Personally, I always thought that this was being done as Marvel's direct attempt to have Thor "keep up" with his DC counterpart, you-know-who.
But, whatever the reason, it is a simple thing to find examples of what I am saying.
Trust me, I am actually a big Surfer fan and I have LITERALLY read, as far as I can tell, EVERY comic that has ever included him. And, I can't count how many times my jaw has dropped while I read about Surfer being beaten by somebody who had NO BUSINESS beating him. And, the one thing that always came to mind, was that he was always written as a noble, peaceful, almost child-like character with vast power. An innocent.
But, Thor has always been written as a warrior first, anything else came last.
If you want to waste a week of your life (as I probably havefacepalm2), you can search and find that many of the greatest feats one of these characters has, the other has also, or feats on similar levels. Everything from energy manipulation, matter manipulation, speed, destruction on gigantic scales, soaking up punishment, working with time, etc.

good post. To be honest, I don't even know what it means to be more powerful.
Does it mean to apply more damage (like to a super durable material or character), to be more unbeatable, or something else?

Originally posted by h1a8
To be honest, I don't even know what it means to be more powerful. I've always taken a simple approach, a combination of two factors:

1. Who can deliver the biggest blast.
2. Who can take the biggest blast.

Originally posted by h1a8
logic and science are two different things. Reread my post. I claimed that the science is sometimes faulty. But the logic exists otherwise the suspension of disbelief will fail.

Definition of logic:
- noun 1._science or method of reasoning

Hence failed science leads to failed logic.
Definition of science:
- noun 1._systematic knowledge, esp. of the physical world, gained through observation and experimentation

Again. I assert that comics are not logical. And btw since you assert comics have failed science applied at times, you can never again assert that superman has billions of tons of strength based upon some feats...

Wanna know why?
The science is faulty.

Ie. you hate superman

Durability: Surfer marginally
Energy output (minus God Blast): Surfer
Strength: Thor
Speed: Surfer BY FAR
Versatility: Surfer BY FAR
Combat effectiveness: Overall effectiveness - it comes down to Surfer's transmutation vs Thor's BFR - both are basically "I-Win" buttons. But due to the speed difference, one of them can pull it off faster, or try other options if Option A doesn't work. So I'll have to go with Surfer for this as well.

So overall, Silver Surfer is still more powerful. Now in a fight, most of the above points are moot because of the MASSIVE speed difference.

Originally posted by rotiart
Definition of logic:
- noun 1._science or method of reasoning

Hence failed science leads to failed logic.
Definition of science:
- noun 1._systematic knowledge, esp. of the physical world, gained through observation and experimentation

Again. I assert that comics are not logical. And btw since you assert comics have failed science applied at times, you can never again assert that superman has billions of tons of strength based upon some feats...

Wanna know why?
The science is faulty.

Ie. you hate superman

Wow! I didn't know you were that slow. By science I mean Physics. If comics are not logical then explain why the suspension of disbelief exists.

Just because some science in comics in faulty doesn't mean we can disregard all science in comics. After all, force is force. How would you know if Thor is stronger than Aquaman without science?

Does surfer have an attack as powerfull as a God blast?

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Nothing facepalm worthy about it.

If Surfer using every iota of power at his disposal to the maximum degree makes him a Trans/Skyfather level being, the same applies to Thor. And Superman, too, to boot. Especially considering Thor tapping into Warrior's Madness qualifies as a power/ability of his, and WM Thor is definitely trans. That's just reality. Obviously, none of those guys are on that level conventionally, but in terms of feats, if we want to go that route, they certainly have them of that caliber.



Yeah, Hyperion attempted a blitz...and then got owned. Gladiator used his speed to great effect...exploiting more than handful of circumstances in his favor and still lost to Thor. Spider-Man used his speed to get an advantage over Thor....Eric Masterson version, that is. Wolverine was too fast for Thor...until Thor actually grabbed him by his ankle and beat him while still holding back.

Your point: not seeing it. Thor doesn't need explicit superspeed movement in order to compete with beings with superspeed to say nothing of beating them. Thor has the reaction and reflexes to tag them, omnidirectional blasts, and a weapon which, when thrown, can home in on a target at speeds far faster than light. Speed, at best, is a general edge someone can have over Thor, but it's not a game changer. Never has been.

Yah, I'm a pretty good poster. And lol at comparing me and Thor to Quan and Thanos. Good times. I already elaborated on that Trans/Skyfather comment above. And yeah, WM Thor is definitely trans. Considering Thor already has strength able to rival Superman and Thor, multiplying that strength by ten safely pushes him out of the High Herald range.

I disagree that WM Thor is trans. It takes more than strength to enter trans. IMO, a calm normal Thor fighting at his best would beat a WM Thor every time since WM Thor would fight less effective. Also, 10x Thor's strength is still herald level strength. For example, Superman is more than 10x Thor's strength when you consider top feats. Even WBH is not trans level and his strength surpasses 10x Thor's strength.

Just because Thor competes with beings with super speed doesn't mean he can when those beings actually use their top super speed on Thor. I can compete with flash is flash doesn't operate at his top speed.

Originally posted by h1a8
I disagree that WM Thor is trans. It takes more than strength to enter trans. IMO, a calm normal Thor fighting at his best would beat a WM Thor every time since WM Thor would fight less effective. Also, 10x Thor's strength is still herald level strength. For example, Superman is more than 10x Thor's strength when you consider top feats. Even WBH is not trans level and his strength surpasses 10x Thor's strength.

Just because Thor competes with beings with super speed doesn't mean he can when those beings actually use their top super speed on Thor. I can compete with flash is flash doesn't operate at his top speed.

Who's stronger...Doomsday or Hulk. Remember, we are going by fts.

Originally posted by carver9
Who's stronger...Doomsday or Hulk. Remember, we are going by fts.

Hulk is variable and can not be argued unless you state a specific Hulk at a specific time.

Originally posted by h1a8
Hulk is variable and can not be argued unless you state a specific Hulk at a specific time.

I'm referring to WWH who is stronger than any other incarnation of the Hulk minus World Breaker.

Originally posted by Horrificus
To make my point clear, I have not ignored Surfers perceptions or speed.
I am simply playing "Devil's Advocate" here.
What I was addressing was the complete lack of Surfer using his speed in a physical manner during combat. His travel speed and perceptions are well known. But, in a h2h battle situation, Surfer has not taken advantage of this ability, for whatever reason.
Then, I simply went on to state that Thor has been written to show speed feats and high level perceptions of speed feats in the past. Over and over.
Personally, I always thought that this was being done as Marvel's direct attempt to have Thor "keep up" with his DC counterpart, you-know-who.
But, whatever the reason, it is a simple thing to find examples of what I am saying.
Trust me, I am actually a big Surfer fan and I have LITERALLY read, as far as I can tell, EVERY comic that has ever included him. And, I can't count how many times my jaw has dropped while I read about Surfer being beaten by somebody who had NO BUSINESS beating him. And, the one thing that always came to mind, was that he was always written as a noble, peaceful, almost child-like character with vast power. An innocent.
But, Thor has always been written as a warrior first, anything else came last.
If you want to waste a week of your life (as I probably havefacepalm2), you can search and find that many of the greatest feats one of these characters has, the other has also, or feats on similar levels. Everything from energy manipulation, matter manipulation, speed, destruction on gigantic scales, soaking up punishment, working with time, etc.

Surfer has used his speed in battle more than Thor has and has more as well as much better in and out of combat speed feats than Thor does (largely because Thors speed is not really even on a comparable level....). In battle, yes surfer doesnt use his speed as often as he should but he is hardly the only character guilty of this and with characters like surfer who have a new power for every day of the week there are only so many powers that can be highlighted in a specific issue before the match becomes overly lopsided. Surfer does not get beaten by people who shouldnt be beating him when he gets serious (frankly surfer deosnt often get BEATEN by people who shouldnt be beating him at all). The only times they ever last a while with him are times when he is obviously holding back and constantly begging them to stop fighting him.

I do agree with the latter part of your post though as it is true that both of these characters have feats on comparable levels.

Originally posted by h1a8
Wow! I didn't know you were that slow. By science I mean Physics. If comics are not logical then explain why the suspension of disbelief exists.

Just because some science in comics in faulty doesn't mean we can disregard all science in comics. After all, force is force. How would you know if Thor is stronger than Aquaman without science?

Dude you come with retarded answers all day long.
When it works in your favor it's right.
When it doesn't it's wrong.

I take it back, it's not your statements that are retarded.

Originally posted by h1a8
Also, 10x Thor's strength is still herald level strength. For example, Superman is more than 10x Thor's strength when you consider top feats.

Wow

thor

Originally posted by guy222
thor Thank you Guy. Support is appreciated.

Originally posted by h1a8
It's only a reality in some cases because the writer knows that Character A will dominate Character B easily and refuses to allow this to happen for the sake of the story. But in other cases the writer makes known of what Character A can really do if he/she wanted.

Comics ARE built off of science and logic (or at least it tries to be at times), otherwise the suspension of disbelief fails. It's just that the science isn't always correct or discovered yet (like magic). Everyone knows how strong a character is based off the things they have lift, pulled, hit, etc... Even when using comparisons to other characters the root is still which natural feats were done at the root. Why do you think Superman is slightly stronger or equal to Thor when they have never fought or engaged in strength? Is it because of the natural lifting, pulling,... feats they have that compare? Isn't that based off science or logic?

Is it reasonable for a character to view bullets as frozen in time yet gets hits, while alert, to an attack moving at a small fraction of a bullets speed? Is it because of the character's ability that he got hit or is it because the writer chose to ignore their ability to falsely create adversity? The writer knows the truth and yet chooses what is best for the comic company, even if that means to go against logic at time.

This is the spirit of why we have the rule "Character's fight at their best ability AS SHOWN BEFORE".
There is no writer to purposely ignore a character's natural ability just because it suits the story.


IMO, it is speed that prevents Thor from being Trans level or even Skyfather level. Without speed and him using his powers at their utmost he is still only a herald level being.



GTFOH, you are so full of sh** you make are Senators look like geniuses, you misuse feats when it suites you, your ignorance of comics is horrid, you are troll nothing more!!

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Any particular reason why? He's a pacifist and Thor is a warrior.

Originally posted by Mindset
He's a pacifist and Thor is a warrior.

That's why Thor would win more of the majority of fights with Silver Surfer, it's a mind set! Silver Surfer is a powerful being trapped in a scientist body and mind, when that change then will see a different and better SS!

Originally posted by Mindset
He's a pacifist and Thor is a warrior.

Thor is definitely more violent but I don't see know that it's enough evidence to say he conclusively holds back less than Surfer. He definitely makes angry faces more often I'll give you that.

Just to be clear, are you saying that Surfer holds back more power or more in relation to the power they have available?

Yes.

Yes......what?

I believe that's the joke.

I guessed that much.

I'm just hoping he'll actually weigh in with a legit reason (Unless his original post was just bait).

http://i42.tinypic.com/dxjo1v.jpg

Surfer's stronger, overall more powerful too. And much much much much faster.

Originally posted by rotiart
Dude you come with retarded answers all day long.
When it works in your favor it's right.
When it doesn't it's wrong.

I take it back, it's not your statements that are retarded.

I like how you were too incompetent to think of an actual response to him, and took to backing out with boastful insults.

Originally posted by janus77
Surfer's stronger,

This is as bad, if not worse, as saying Thor has faster reaction time than Surfer.

Originally posted by janus77
overall more powerful too.

Incorrect.

Originally posted by the Darkone
GTFOH, you are so full of sh** you make are Senators look like geniuses, you misuse feats when it suites you, your ignorance of comics is horrid, you are troll nothing more!! Ouch.

Originally posted by janus77
Surfer's stronger, overall more powerful too. And much much much much faster. I'm not trying to be a jerk. But, seriously, I haven't seen the speed feats used in combat.
Are there any examples? Because I have the books and can just look it up. No scans needed.
I really don't remember Surfer using speed for anything but travel. I have seen him cruise through on his board, blasting people at his crazy speeds. But, never h2h.
If I'm wrong, please show me. I am a Surfer fan anyway.
I can believe he has the potential. I just never saw it.

And, as I stated before, Thor has been shown to have combat-based speed feats as well as narrative and other character statements supporting his speed as well.

Thanks.

Originally posted by Horrificus
I'm not trying to be a jerk. But, seriously, I haven't seen the speed feats used in combat.
Are there any examples? Because I have the books and can just look it up. No scans needed.
I really don't remember Surfer using speed for anything but travel. I have seen him cruise through on his board, blasting people at his crazy speeds. But, never h2h.
If I'm wrong, please show me. I am a Surfer fan anyway.
I can believe he has the potential. I just never saw it.

And, as I stated before, Thor has been shown to have combat-based speed feats as well as narrative and other character statements supporting his speed as well.

Thanks.

Surfer is a blaster and not much of a h2h fighter. At his best he zooms around like a fly blasting up some sh!t.

This makes him more dangerous. It is easy to hit a 60mph fastball coming at you from 50 feet away but it is even harder to hit a fly buzzing around you at 5mph. Now imagine Surfer buzzing around at light speeds and beyond.

Originally posted by Horrificus
I'm not trying to be a jerk. But, seriously, I haven't seen the speed feats used in combat.
Are there any examples? Because I have the books and can just look it up. No scans needed.
I really don't remember Surfer using speed for anything but travel. I have seen him cruise through on his board, blasting people at his crazy speeds. But, never h2h.
If I'm wrong, please show me. I am a Surfer fan anyway.
I can believe he has the potential. I just never saw it.

And, as I stated before, Thor has been shown to have combat-based speed feats as well as narrative and other character statements supporting his speed as well.

Thanks.

Surfer doesnt fight strictly h2h most times though.He is a blaster and thus his superspeed displays mostly involve blasting and manoeuvring at superspeed as well as reacting,perceiving things,processing, and calculating things at superspeed. This is all in battle and so is extremely valid for combat situations. Thors combat based speed feats are really not on Surfers level at all.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
This is as bad, if not worse, as saying Thor has faster reaction time than Surfer.


Nope, the gap in strength certainly isnt as much as the gap in speed.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Nope, the gap in strength certainly isnt as much as the gap in speed.

Eh, I doubt the gap in speed would be portrayed as larger than the gap in strength. And not for a lack of use. So I'll stick by first point.

The one time it really ever provided an advantage was in their original fight. And we know what the implications of that one were. vin

^the gap in speed might not be portrayed like that in direct encounters (CIS, PIS, whatever you wanna call it) but that doesnt mean it doesnt clearly exist and outweigh the gap in strength.

I gotta disagree. Surfer has operated above Thor's level in speed and vise versa in regards to strength. I guess if we do the math (IIRC someone said Surfer should be thousands of times faster than Thor or something of the sort) then you're right but then again, I never really gave a shit about stuff like that.

I'd like to point out that all the writers in question who have written their battles know that Surfer is extremely fast (One of them gave Surfer arguably his best speed feat ever) and have him for the most part giving it his best. Even while resorting to hit and run tactics he failed during Blood and Thunder.

Not really sure why it's so hard to believe that Thor has fast reflexes. True he has his low showings (Lower than most on this level) but his always hanged with boys on his level unless there was something that gave his opponents the edge. Call them outliers if you want (It'd be fair I guess) but he steps up when shit is on the line, he always has. Like I said earlier, there needs to be a caption describing Surfer as moving at x1242953950073^1000 light speed as Thor bashes him in the face, that will probably satisfy most.

^A caption would settle everything.



I firmly believe Thor should be fast, simply based on the fact that he is extremely strong for his weight. In reality, you can't be fast without being strong, that's for sure.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I gotta disagree. Surfer has operated above Thor's level in speed and vise versa in regards to strength. I guess if we do the math (IIRC someone said Surfer should be thousands of times faster than Thor or something of the sort) then you're right but then again, I never really gave a shit about stuff like that.

I'd like to point out that all the writers in question who have written their battles know that Surfer is extremely fast (One of them gave Surfer arguably his best speed feat ever) and have him for the most part giving it his best. Even while resorting to hit and run tactics he failed during Blood and Thunder.

Not really sure why it's so hard to believe that Thor has fast reflexes. True he has his low showings (Lower than most on this level) but his always hanged with boys on his level unless there was something that gave his opponents the edge. Call them outliers if you want (It'd be fair I guess) but he steps up when shit is on the line, he always has. Like I said earlier, there needs to be a caption describing Surfer as moving at x1242953950073^1000 light speed as Thor bashes him in the face, that will probably satisfy most.

Well i was talking in a strictly mathematical sense regarding between Surfer and thors speed and Surfer and Thors strength. I know that thor has fast reflexes, but i think its pretty obvious that Surfer was not moving at a gajillion times light speed when he fought Thor, nor do i expect him to though in a forum battle.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Well i was talking in a strictly mathematical sense regarding between Surfer and thors speed and Surfer and Thors strength. I know that thor has fast reflexes, but i think its pretty obvious that Surfer was not moving at a gajillion times light speed when he fought Thor, nor do i expect him to though in a forum battle.

Stop being such a nerd (I know, the irony).

True, an excessive figure -that was the intent- but I'd have a lot of fun with it so that's enough grounds for it to happen. Look at it this way, next time Thor beats up Norrin, he won't look as bad.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
I like how you were too incompetent to think of an actual response to him, and took to backing out with boastful insults.

Incompetent?
His arguments are. Superman punched someone through an object and this has billions of tons of strength
Speed wins all things

And when you argue why the logic behind it is bad he says it's not the logic it's the science that's faulty.
And what the hell is science, the logical conclusion to a series of tested hypothesis for which the answer has been shown to logically be the same or similar..

And yet when superman struggles with certain much much lighter than billions of tons items... It's illogical.

Btw he called me slow first when he failed his argument
So nice try.

Originally posted by h1a8
Surfer is a blaster and not much of a h2h fighter. At his best he zooms around like a fly blasting up some sh!t.

This makes him more dangerous. It is easy to hit a 60mph fastball coming at you from 50 feet away but it is even harder to hit a fly buzzing around you at 5mph. Now imagine Surfer buzzing around at light speeds and beyond. OK. I agree with what you said.

But...

Once I broke 150 mph on my bike.
But, I can't fight at that speed.

Then...

If we are using "Travel Speed" as a potential speed feat, why can't we throw Thor's teleportation into that bin?

Originally posted by Horrificus
OK. I agree with what you said.

But...

Once I broke 150 mph on my bike.
But, I can't fight at that speed.

Then...

If we are using "Travel Speed" as a potential speed feat, why can't we throw Thor's teleportation into that bin?
Thor doesn't use teleportation quickly... Like cable dead pool blink...
His is more like gateway... He swirls his hammer for a minute or so the disappears... It's not instantaneous so it's combat effective is rather limited as you could see him preparing for it a mile away and he doesn't do anything else while teleporting leaving him an open duck.

Originally posted by rotiart
Thor doesn't use teleportation quickly... Like cable dead pool blink...
His is more like gateway... He swirls his hammer for a minute or so the disappears... It's not instantaneous so it's combat effective is rather limited as you could see him preparing for it a mile away and he doesn't do anything else while teleporting leaving him an open duck.

He just recently had a feat where he teleported a group of opponents so fast that they didn't even register what happened at first. No spinning required.

^that was a badass feat.

Badass ft. Thor is a monster.

Thor is more powerful while Surfer is more versatile.

Originally posted by dmills
He just recently had a feat where he teleported a group of opponents so fast that they didn't even register what happened at first. No spinning required.

There you go:
http://i709.photobucket.com/albums/ww99/Strangerinthenight/Avengersannual014.jpg
http://i709.photobucket.com/albums/ww99/Strangerinthenight/Avengersannual015.jpg
http://i709.photobucket.com/albums/ww99/Strangerinthenight/Avengersannual016.jpg
http://i709.photobucket.com/albums/ww99/Strangerinthenight/Avengersannual017.jpg

It's not the first time Thor has teleported with just a bolt of lightning or without spinning his hammer etc. It's how he usually goes about it but it's not a must. Once he even had Mjolnir teleport from his hand into another dimension and then return after a specific time automatically.

And yea, this was pretty badass.

Originally posted by rotiart
Thor doesn't use teleportation quickly... Like cable dead pool blink...
His is more like gateway... He swirls his hammer for a minute or so the disappears... It's not instantaneous so it's combat effective is rather limited as you could see him preparing for it a mile away and he doesn't do anything else while teleporting leaving him an open duck.

Missed this post. Thor usually teleports by spinning his hammer but it's not a must, teleportation is something it can do independently and it happens pretty quickly. Though I don't think Thor will really do much with it tactically in combat.

The one time I can think of something like that happening would be Dargo using it against Korvac:
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/ThorvsKorvac5.jpg
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/ThorvsKorvac6.jpg
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/ThorvsKorvac7.jpg

He could use it for battle field removal but I think his better off just using a beam of energy or something.

^^^ So much for "spinning the hammer for a few minutes".

Originally posted by dmills
^^^ So much for "spinning the hammer for a few minutes". Thor can bfr Superman any time he wants.

Has that ever actually been in doubt? If he wants, he can battle field remove Superman pretty easily truth be told, it's just not a tactic he's fond of.

Originally posted by dmills
^^^ So much for "spinning the hammer for a few minutes".

Few minutes, what the f*ck? That's nonsense. He once opened up a portal slowly during Busiek's run but that's purely because he was on a team that the writer doesn't want him doing everything for. His teleportation time often ranges in the seconds and that's with spinning portals alone.

He instantly banished Cap and Iron Man from Asgard during Ragnarok as well.

People seem to think he needs to charge up Mjolnir for his most powerful strikes, throws, lightning blasts, or to teleport, but really, he doesn't need to. It's often done for more artistic flavor, especially if he's giving one of his old school speeches.

I guess you can say seconds but whenever I see a scan of someone spinning the hammer I say it takes more than a few seconds.

And honestly the teleportation I think of as combat is like sliding and and out of space without usin a motion that someone registers so they know you are coming and going.

A Thor "bamfing" around intent on killing everyone like night crawler but without a range of distance would be fairly unstoppable to most of the herald range when you consider everything else Thor is packing

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
He instantly banished Cap and Iron Man from Asgard during Ragnarok as well.

People seem to think he needs to charge up Mjolnir for his most powerful strikes, throws, lightning blasts, or to teleport, but really, he doesn't need to. It's often done for more artistic flavor, especially if he's giving one of his old school speeches.

Yea, people seem to confuse Thor's regal way of talking and flair for the dramatic for some kind of activation period.

He may spend an entire page making a speech while he opens a portal and do it in an instant in another scene. Really depends on the situation.

Originally posted by rotiart
I guess you can say seconds but whenever I see a scan of someone spinning the hammer I say it takes more than a few seconds.

And honestly the teleportation I think of as combat is like sliding and and out of space without usin a motion that someone registers so they know you are coming and going.

A Thor "bamfing" around intent on killing everyone like night crawler but without a range of distance would be fairly unstoppable to most of the herald range when you consider everything else Thor is packing

I use this scan because it has the word second in it (Although clearly hyperbolic in nature, it obviously happened within moments):
http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa469/R-O-O/Thor/TeleportEarth3.jpg

There are faster instances imo (Including Thor not even resorting to vortex). In that arc for the record, the Odinson was able to create such a phenomenon right before they hit the Black Celestial modified Galactus:
http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa469/R-O-O/Thor/TeleportsBlackHole1.jpg
http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa469/R-O-O/Thor/TeleportsBlackHole2.jpg
http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa469/R-O-O/Thor/TeleportsBlackHole3.jpg

They were moments away and at the rate Richards time-sled was traveling at, it couldn't have taken more than like a second or two tops. I posted it mostly though because he was able to teleport without any problems so close to the event, it pays testament to Mjolnir's incredibly space warping capabilities.

For the record, I don't know of any instances (Except like one where he needed to prepare for some reason) where Thor takes more than a few seconds to create a warp in space. Even if it is one of those scenes where his being long winded, it should still be under a minute:
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/BreaksIntoNegaZone1.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/BreaksIntoNegaZone2.jpg

Technically speaking Thor very well could teleport all Nightcrawler like (Mjolnir has shown the sufficient level of space warping needed for that) but it's really not in his character to do so. I don't think his ever done anything like that except for having Mjolnir teleport and attack the enemy from another angle IIRC.

Originally posted by rotiart
Dude you come with retarded answers all day long.
When it works in your favor it's right.
When it doesn't it's wrong.

I take it back, it's not your statements that are retarded.

When science doesn't work, I apply the suspension of disbelief and accept the feat.
When science works, then we use it.

But why engage in a discussion when you are not willing to discuss (answer my questions)?

How do you know that Thor is stronger than Aquaman when the two never engaged?

Originally posted by h1a8
When science doesn't work, I apply the suspension of disbelief and accept the feat.
When science works, then we use it.

But why engage in a discussion when you are not willing to discuss (answer my questions)?

How do you know that Thor is stronger than Aquaman when the two never engaged?

How do you know that Thor is stronger than Aquaman?

Thor is stronger than Aquaman. Feats say so.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Thor is stronger than Aquaman. Feats say so.

I'm trying to do something...you are messing it up.

Originally posted by carver9
I'm trying to do something...you are messing it up.

Now you know how I feel when you post.

That's h1's point.

You can't know who's stronger without looking at feats.

And for some things, its impossible to know just from visuals alone--you have to go deeper.

If luke cage picks up a tank, and savage dragon picks up a jeep sized boulder, saying luke cage is stronger just because he picked up a far bigger object, would be wrong.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
That's h1's point.

You can't know who's stronger without looking at feats.

And for some things, its impossible to know just from visuals alone--you have to go deeper.

If luke cage picks up a tank, and savage dragon picks up a jeep sized boulder, saying luke cage is stronger just because he picked up a far bigger object, would be wrong.

Featception?

don't do this to me...

Originally posted by -Pr-
Now you know how I feel when you post.

Lol...my posts bring tears of joy to your eyes. Seriously...you are messing up what I am trying to prove to h1.

Originally posted by carver9
Lol...my posts bring tears of joy to your eyes. Seriously...you are messing up what I am trying to prove to h1.
You trying to prove something to h1? That's just a sign of coming apocalypse.

Originally posted by carver9
How do you know that Thor is stronger than Aquaman?

Because of feats. duh
All you are doing is proving my point.

Originally posted by carver9
Lol...my posts bring tears of joy to your eyes. Seriously...you are messing up what I am trying to prove to h1.

Well, you are half-right: There are tears involved.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Well, you are half-right: There are tears involved.

Originally posted by dmills
^^^ So much for "spinning the hammer for a few minutes".

Typical and baseless argument used against Thor on every one of his vs threads.

Originally posted by h1a8
When science doesn't work, I apply the suspension of disbelief and accept the feat.
When science works, then we use it.

But why engage in a discussion when you are not willing to discuss (answer my questions)?

How do you know that Thor is stronger than Aquaman when the two never engaged?

Originally posted by carver9
How do you know that Thor is stronger than Aquaman?

Stop arguing in circles lads. Its a combination of both. Feats, and how they stand up to other characters.

Originally posted by h1a8
Because of feats. duh
All you are doing is proving my point.

So you admit Thor is 10 times stronger than Darkseid and Doomsday based off of lifting fts? Is this correct?

Originally posted by carver9
So you admit Thor is 10 times stronger than Darkseid and Doomsday based off of lifting fts? Is this correct? You actually have him.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You actually have him.

Sarcasm makes my stomach hurt. Hush it Quan.

Originally posted by carver9
So you admit Thor is 10 times stronger than Darkseid and Doomsday based off of lifting fts? Is this correct? I'm 5 steps ahead of you Carv. I'm about to Heath Ledger Joker your arse.

Watch my awesome connection of logic:
1. Doomsday overpowered Superman in a test of strength when grappled up.
2. Darkseid CASUALLY bloodied Superman by smacking him and another time by punching him.
3. Superman has strength feats beyond Thor.
4. Superman isn't strong enough to CASUALLY bloody a 100% duplicate of himself in one blow.

By 1 and 3 Doomsday is stronger than Thor.
By 2, 3, and 4 Darkseid is stronger than Thor.


Remember lifting feats aren't the only thing that counts. We have hitting, pulling,... feats as well. Whether we connect the dots directly or indirectly (with comparisons) of whose stronger, the connection at root will always will be someone's natural feats.

Originally posted by Horrificus
OK. I agree with what you said.

But...

Once I broke 150 mph on my bike.
But, I can't fight at that speed.

Then...

If we are using "Travel Speed" as a potential speed feat, why can't we throw Thor's teleportation into that bin?

Not the same at all, You riding your bike is in no way comparable to surfers speed....Firstly you ride your bike in a straight line and have very little manoevrability regardless of the speed you attain. Further even when granting added manoevrability, the navigating of your bike is something directly contingent on your body movements (to a much greater extent than say the driving of a car or navigating a fighter jet and yet still to a lesser extent than that required by Surfer on his board), and thus you dont have the bodily reactions to even perform any complex manoevres at that speed at all. We havent even started talking about your lack of ability to process things or think at superspeeds

Surfer on the other hand is not only able to fly on his board at superspeed (travel speed), but is able to coordinate complex blast blitz attacks at that superspeed while manoevring in multiple directions...while in battle hence he is fighting at that speed.The reactions needed here for his level of manoevrability and control and use of superspeed in battle are astronomical and certainly considerably above anything Thor has displayed. Him having been clocked at the nanosecond reaction level further corroborates this.

Throw in the fact that surfer has legitimate superspeed perceptions and mental processing abilities and really any comparison between he and Thor speedwise falls pretty flat.

Originally posted by h1a8
I'm 5 steps ahead of you Carv. I'm about to Heath Ledger Joker your arse.

Watch my awesome connection of logic:
1. Doomsday overpowered Superman in a test of strength when grappled up.
2. Darkseid CASUALLY bloodied Superman by smacking him and another time by punching him.
3. Superman has strength feats beyond Thor.
4. Superman isn't strong enough to CASUALLY bloody a 100% duplicate of himself in one blow.

By 1 and 3 Doomsday is stronger than Thor.
By 2, 3, and 4 Darkseid is stronger than Thor.


Remember lifting feats aren't the only thing that counts. We have hitting, pulling,... feats as well. Whether we connect the dots directly or indirectly (with comparisons) of whose stronger, the connection at root will always will be someone's natural feats. WTF?

Originally posted by h1a8
I'm 5 steps ahead of you Carv. I'm about to Heath Ledger Joker your arse.

Watch my awesome connection of logic:
1. Doomsday overpowered Superman in a test of strength when grappled up.
2. Darkseid CASUALLY bloodied Superman by smacking him and another time by punching him.
3. Superman has strength feats beyond Thor.
4. Superman isn't strong enough to CASUALLY bloody a 100% duplicate of himself in one blow.

By 1 and 3 Doomsday is stronger than Thor.
By 2, 3, and 4 Darkseid is stronger than Thor.


Remember lifting feats aren't the only thing that counts. We have hitting, pulling,... feats as well. Whether we connect the dots directly or indirectly (with comparisons) of whose stronger, the connection at root will always will be someone's natural feats. You make no sense whatsoever. None. You use double standards and trip over your logic all the time.

Originally posted by h1a8
I'm 5 steps ahead of you Carv. I'm about to Heath Ledger Joker your arse.

Watch my awesome connection of logic:
1. Doomsday overpowered Superman in a test of strength when grappled up.
2. Darkseid CASUALLY bloodied Superman by smacking him and another time by punching him.
3. Superman has strength feats beyond Thor.
4. Superman isn't strong enough to CASUALLY bloody a 100% duplicate of himself in one blow.

By 1 and 2 Doomsday is stronger than Thor.
By 2, 3, and 4 Darkseid is stronger than Thor.


Remember lifting feats aren't the only thing that counts. We have hitting, pulling,... feats as well. Whether we connect the dots directly or indirectly (with comparisons) of whose stronger, the connection at root will always will be someone's natural feats.

Superman has mental blocks that holds his strength back. Do you have scans stating Superman was going all out against against either?

Originally posted by h1a8
It's only a reality in some cases because the writer knows that Character A will dominate Character B easily and refuses to allow this to happen for the sake of the story. But in other cases the writer makes known of what Character A can really do if he/she wanted.

Comics ARE built off of science and logic (or at least it tries to be at times), otherwise the suspension of disbelief fails. It's just that the science isn't always correct or discovered yet (like magic). Everyone knows how strong a character is based off the things they have lift, pulled, hit, etc... Even when using comparisons to other characters the root is still which natural feats were done at the root. Why do you think Superman is slightly stronger or equal to Thor when they have never fought or engaged in strength? Is it because of the natural lifting, pulling,... feats they have that compare? Isn't that based off science or logic?

Is it reasonable for a character to view bullets as frozen in time yet gets hits, while alert, to an attack moving at a small fraction of a bullets speed? Is it because of the character's ability that he got hit or is it because the writer chose to ignore their ability to falsely create adversity? The writer knows the truth and yet chooses what is best for the comic company, even if that means to go against logic at time.

This is the spirit of why we have the rule "Character's fight at their best ability AS SHOWN BEFORE".
There is no writer to purposely ignore a character's natural ability just because it suits the story.


IMO, it is speed that prevents Thor from being Trans level or even Skyfather level. Without speed and him using his powers at their utmost he is still only a herald level being.
Originally posted by h1a8
logic and science are two different things. Reread my post. I claimed that the science is sometimes faulty. But the logic exists otherwise the suspension of disbelief will fail.

Originally posted by h1a8
When science doesn't work, I apply the suspension of disbelief and accept the feat.
When science works, then we use it.


So we allow comparisons because of feats
And we allow feats because because they are based on logic and science.
But when logic and science works we apply it.
When the science doesn't work, we still say the feats are valid by suspending our belief in science and logic.

So again. You said when you like the feat the science applies or you disbelieved te science to give it merit.
When YOU don't like the feat, te it is illogical because the science doesn't apply.

Feat wise.. When a guardian was defeated and sent in a green lantern to do what he couldn't.. It was an obvious admission green lanterns are more powerful than guardians...

Originally posted by quanchi112
You make no sense whatsoever. None. You use double standards and trip over your logic all the time.
This post just cracks me up.. Lol

Originally posted by Ambient
This post just cracks me up.. Lol

Hey. Everyone can't be wrong all the time...

Well I quess it's just, Quan nailed it on the spot..

Originally posted by rotiart
So we allow comparisons because of feats
And we allow feats because because they are based on logic and science.
But when logic and science works we apply it.
When the science doesn't work, we still say the feats are valid by suspending our belief in science and logic.

So again. You said when you like the feat the science applies or you disbelieved te science to give it merit.
When YOU don't like the feat, te it is illogical because the science doesn't apply.

Feat wise.. When a guardian was defeated and sent in a green lantern to do what he couldn't.. It was an obvious admission green lanterns are more powerful than guardians...


You got me confused with someone else bro. I never said or implied that if a feat goes against science (Physics) that I don't like it (in recent times of course). Feats are unusable if they are PIS though. That has nothing to do with science.
If feats go against logic (not necessarily science) then I don't like it. For example, is it logical for Spider-man to beat Firelord? Is it logical for Thor to be injured by mere bullets? Is it logical for someone to see bullets in slow motion on a consistent basis but get hit, when alert, by an attack moving at a magnitude slower? Comics are built of logic or at least they try to be. But sometimes they contradict themselves (not science). This makes them illogical.

Green Lanterns are not equal. Some are high herald and some are low herald and some even border on trans when they are at their best.

Originally posted by h1a8
By science I mean Physics. If comics are not logical then explain why the suspension of disbelief exists.

Just because some science in comics in faulty doesn't mean we can disregard all science in comics. After all, force is force. How would you know if Thor is stronger than Aquaman without science?


Originally posted by h1a8
Comics are built of logic or at least they try to be. But sometimes they contradict themselves (not science). This makes them illogical.


So first you say it's that te science is flawed but the comics logical...
Second you logic can sometimes contradict itself but not the science.

And just to be clear, comics are stories, like blockbuster movies. For the story to have the impact and flow necessary it is required walking in to put logic at the door to further the story.

Captain America being able to brace up a building comes to mind. Or hurt guys like the wrecking crew who normally tank big bricks like Thor.

Let me make this clear to you: what you define as logic, others define is your opinion. Just like it is my opinion that comics are illogical fantastic works of.... "fiction". Fun, but still unrealistic.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Not the same at all, You riding your bike is in no way comparable to surfers speed....Firstly you ride your bike in a straight line and have very little manoevrability regardless of the speed you attain. Further even when granting added manoevrability, the navigating of your bike is something directly contingent on your body movements (to a much greater extent than say the driving of a car or navigating a fighter jet and yet still to a lesser extent than that required by Surfer on his board), and thus you dont have the bodily reactions to even perform any complex manoevres at that speed at all. We havent even started talking about your lack of ability to process things or think at superspeeds

Surfer on the other hand is not only able to fly on his board at superspeed (travel speed), but is able to coordinate complex blast blitz attacks at that superspeed while manoevring in multiple directions...while in battle hence he is fighting at that speed.The reactions needed here for his level of manoevrability and control and use of superspeed in battle are astronomical and certainly considerably above anything Thor has displayed. Him having been clocked at the nanosecond reaction level further corroborates this.

Throw in the fact that surfer has legitimate superspeed perceptions and mental processing abilities and really any comparison between he and Thor speedwise falls pretty flat.

If you really start wondering about things and want to open up THAT Pandora's box, I would imagine that the mechanism behind Thor's ability to just teleport all over the Multiverse, instantaneously, is comparable, or more impressive than Surfer's. Especially if you start to break it down, remembering that Asgardian "Magic" has been described as "Super-Science" that borders on the Mystic, or is mistaken for the Magical.

The Runner, (Elder of the Universe) used the Space Gem. He was considered to be faster than the Surfer and in reality, was just using the Space Gem to skip-teleport along the space-ways.

Out of Surfer and Thor, in a race, who is the first to get to the other side of the galaxy, to planet "whatever"?

Isn't it going to be Thor?

Originally posted by h1a8
It's only a reality in some cases because the writer knows that Character A will dominate Character B easily and refuses to allow this to happen for the sake of the story. But in other cases the writer makes known of what Character A can really do if he/she wanted.

Comics ARE built off of science and logic (or at least it tries to be at times), otherwise the suspension of disbelief fails. It's just that the science isn't always correct or discovered yet (like magic). Everyone knows how strong a character is based off the things they have lift, pulled, hit, etc... Even when using comparisons to other characters the root is still which natural feats were done at the root. Why do you think Superman is slightly stronger or equal to Thor when they have never fought or engaged in strength? Is it because of the natural lifting, pulling,... feats they have that compare? Isn't that based off science or logic?

Is it reasonable for a character to view bullets as frozen in time yet gets hits, while alert, to an attack moving at a small fraction of a bullets speed? Is it because of the character's ability that he got hit or is it because the writer chose to ignore their ability to falsely create adversity? The writer knows the truth and yet chooses what is best for the comic company, even if that means to go against logic at time.

This is the spirit of why we have the rule "Character's fight at their best ability AS SHOWN BEFORE".
There is no writer to purposely ignore a character's natural ability just because it suits the story.


IMO, it is speed that prevents Thor from being Trans level or even Skyfather level. Without speed and him using his powers at their utmost he is still only a herald level being.




I stopped reading your post after i read this


"Comics ARE built off science logic"

And this


"it is speed the prevents thor from being Trans level or even skyfather"

you dont need to be a speedster to be a skyfather

Originally posted by Horrificus
If you really start wondering about things and want to open up THAT Pandora's box, I would imagine that the mechanism behind Thor's ability to just teleport all over the Multiverse, instantaneously, is comparable, or more impressive than Surfer's. Especially if you start to break it down, remembering that Asgardian "Magic" has been described as "Super-Science" that borders on the Mystic, or is mistaken for the Magical.

The Runner, (Elder of the Universe) used the Space Gem. He was considered to be faster than the Surfer and in reality, was just using the Space Gem to skip-teleport along the space-ways.

Out of Surfer and Thor, in a race, who is the first to get to the other side of the galaxy, to planet "whatever"?

Isn't it going to be Thor?

Im not really doing any speculation and im only mentioning things that have been corroborated on panel and are direct displays of as well as directly related to combat speed/reflexes. Thor having the ability to teleport is nice and all but he has not shown at all to be effective in battle aside bfring his opponent. His self teleportation is not at all a good tactic for him as he hasnt shown the skill to execute it like nightcrawler etc. Addittionally he is still limited by his own speed as that teleportation needs to be activated by him physically or mentally..which are both areas that he is comparatively lacking.

The runner im pretty sure was using his own regular speed when fighting Surfer as he didnt have the space gem by then but even then its not comparable since his application of the space gem is something beyond what Thor can or will replicate....Oh Additionally, Surfer can
actually teleport himself and others as well and has even done so in battle. but thats beside the point...