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Both at their best who wins this and why?

kubik

Abraxas destroys him.

do u believe the dark man defeats the beyonder good friend

abraxas.

Originally posted by guy222
do u believe the dark man defeats the beyonder good friend

Yup. He (Abraxas) was doing some crazy things in that FF arc.

Abraxas wins.

and wasn't that the pre retcon beyonder kubik warped into a ball



and i love the dark man

What did Kubik do that makes you believe him to be above Abraxas?? Idk haven't read anything about Kubik.

Kubik.

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/4452/90353438.th.jpg

Originally posted by Galan007
Kubik.

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/4452/90353438.th.jpg

A Full Cube Being (Kubik) beat a half Cube Being (Beyonder) which is expected but nothing impressive. Abraxas' very presence put MULTI-Eternity into a panicked state (I think he was actually comatosed). He didn't even have to lift a finger to attack MULTI-Eternity.

Originally posted by Galan007
Kubik.

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/4452/90353438.th.jpg

thank u

Originally posted by zopzop
A Full Cube Being (Kubik) beat a half Cube Being (Beyonder) which is expected but nothing impressive. Abraxas' very presence put MULTI-Eternity into a panicked state (I think he was actually comatosed). He didn't even have to lift a finger to attack MULTI-Eternity.

that was the beyonder in his all powerful state

and he was handled

i love the dark man also

kubik's feat cannot b overlooked

Originally posted by guy222
that was the beyonder in his all powerful state

and he was handled

i love the dark man also

kubik's feat cannot b overlooked

But Guy, that's the very issue the retcon took place in. They even admit that they are not on the level of Eternity or the Living Tribunal or the other cosmics.

So basically it was a full Cube Being beating a half Cube Being.

Originally posted by zopzop
A Full Cube Being (Kubik) beat a half Cube Being (Beyonder) which is expected but nothing impressive. Abraxas' very presence put MULTI-Eternity into a panicked state (I think he was actually comatosed). He didn't even have to lift a finger to attack MULTI-Eternity. Scaring Eternity isn't a feat. All that does is tell us what Abraxas might have been capable of, if he'd of used more of his touted (imo, overrated) power on panel--which, sadly, he didn't. Opposite side of the coin, Kubik gesturely warped Beyonder's entire universe into a palm-sized sphere that he could have effortlessly crushed in his hands.

That is far and away superior to any FEATS Abraxas preformed on panel.

Originally posted by zopzop
But Guy, that's the very issue the retcon took place in. They even admit that they are not on the level of Eternity or the Living Tribunal or the other cosmics.

So basically it was a full Cube Being beating a half Cube Being.

hey buddy

i believe that was man from beyond pre retcon...i will check though

Originally posted by Galan007
Scaring Eternity isn't a feat. All that does is tell us what Abraxas might have been capable of, if he'd of used more of his touted (imo, overrated) power on panel--which, sadly, he didn't. Opposite side of the coin, Kubik gesturely warped Beyonder's entire universe into a palm-sized sphere that he could have effortlessly crushed in his hands.

That is far and away superior to any FEATS Abraxas preformed on panel.

Casually warping a "universe" created by the power of HALF a Cube Being is nice, but this is much better :
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f98/t524678.html

Multiversal scale damage and MULTI-Eternity begging for help. Kubik himself has admitted inferiority (on at least two occasions) to a SINGLE Celestial, Eternity > A Single Celestial. Multi-Eternity >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Single Celestial.

Originally posted by zopzop
Casually warping a "universe" created by the power of HALF a Cube Being is nice, but this is much better You continue reiterating "half a cube being's universe" as though it somehow diminishes the fact that Kubik gesturely warped a full-fledged universe in the palm of his hand. It doesn't.

Originally posted by zopzop
MULTI-Eternity begging for help. Again, this isn't a literal feat, but rather, a feat of implied power. To the contrary, my only point is that the feats Kubik preformed on panel are superior to the feats Abraxas preformed on panel.

Originally posted by Galan007
Scaring Eternity isn't a feat. All that does is tell us what Abraxas might have been capable of, if he'd of used more of his touted (imo, overrated) power on panel--which, sadly, he didn't. Opposite side of the coin, Kubik gesturely warped Beyonder's entire universe into a palm-sized sphere that he could have effortlessly crushed in his hands.

That is far and away superior to any FEATS Abraxas preformed on panel. Feats don't determine who is more powerful nor have they ever.

Originally posted by Galan007
You continue reiterating "half a cube being's universe" as though it somehow diminishes the fact that Kubik gesturely warped a full-fledged universe in the palm of his hand. It doesn't.

Again, this isn't a literal feat, but rather, a feat of implied power. To the contrary, my only point is that the feats Kubik preformed on panel are superior to the feats Abraxas preformed on panel.

Kubik has ONE "impressive" feat on panel vs HALF a Cube Being. And fans cling to that like white on rice.

Fact is, he beat HALF a Cube Being. Full Cube Beings like Kosmos and Kubik were crapping their pants at the impending judgement of a SINGLE no name Celestial. He's admitted on panel that they (Cube Beings) are many tiers below Celestials. No single Celestial with the exception of Scathan or the ascended Tiamut, are a match for Eternity, let alone MULTI-ETERNITy.

And this is ignoring the fact that Franklin Richards was also powerless and in fear against Abraxas. The same Franklin that the Rogue Celestials (plural) feared.

This being, Abraxas, had MULTI-Eternity sh|tting bricks and begging for help. The EMBODIMENT of the MULTIVERSE was helpless and begging for help vs Abraxas. That >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ANYTHING Kubik has ever done or will do.

Originally posted by zopzop
Fact is, he beat HALF a Cube Being. "Fact is" Kubik casually warped an entire universe into a tennis ball-sized sphere. THAT is his best feat, bud.

Originally posted by zopzop
This being, Abraxas, had MULTI-Eternity sh|tting bricks and begging for help. The EMBODIMENT of the MULTIVERSE was helpless and begging for help vs Abraxas. That >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ANYTHING Kubik has ever done or will do. I could bring up Galactus calling Abraxas "nothing". I could bring up Abraxas doing nothing to destroy Galactus.... But I won't.

Once more: Eternity being scared of Abraxas isn't an on panel feat. All it does is give us a very ambiguous degree of implied power. Deal with this, and move on.

Originally posted by Galan007
"Fact is" Kubik casually warped an entire universe into a tennis ball-sized sphere. THAT is his best feat, bud.

I could bring up Galactus calling Abraxas "nothing". I could bring up Abraxas doing nothing to destroy Galactus.... But I won't.

Once more: Eternity being scared of Abraxas isn't an on panel feat. All it does is give us a very ambiguous degree of implied power. Deal with this, and move on.

It's been dealt with. The Embodiment of the MULTIVERSE was powerless vs Abraxas. A universal scale reality warper (according to the Rogue Celestials) was powerless against Abraxas. This same universal scale reality warper had the Rogue Celestials in a panic.

ONE unnamed Celestial had TWO FULL CUBE BEINGS (Kosmos and Kubik) in fear of their lives.

Abraxas >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kubik.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Feats don't determine who is more powerful nor have they ever.

Feats are the only thing that determine who is more powerful, until you deal with featless characters (e.g. many abstracts).

IMO, Galan is correct in that Kubik's on panel feats are superior to Abraxas. That said, I think he's grossly overlooking off-panel feats.

Off panel feats are tricky to deal with. They're often hyperbolized, and commonly lack information such as who, what, where, when, how, and why. This certainly makes them less reliable as a whole. That said, we know some of Abraxas' off-panel feats. He was casually destroying universes just by approaching them. Don't really know how, or why, but that's not not hyperbolized. He's kind of like a miniature Anti-Monitor.

IMO, Abraxas wins.

Originally posted by zopzop
It's been dealt with. The Embodiment of the MULTIVERSE was powerless vs Abraxas. A universal scale reality warper (according to the Rogue Celestials) was powerless against Abraxas. This same universal scale reality warper had the Rogue Celestials in a panic.

ONE unnamed Celestial had TWO FULL CUBE BEINGS (Kosmos and Kubik) in fear of their lives.

Abraxas >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kubik. You're overlooking what I'm saying, bud. Kubik's on panel feats (ie. feats he preformed on panel) are superior to those feats Abraxas preformed on panel.

...But you're right: in a contest of implied power, Abraxas is greater.

Originally posted by Cogito
Feats are the only thing that determine who is more powerful, until you deal with featless characters (e.g. many abstracts).

IMO, Galan is correct in that Kubik's on panel feats are superior to Abraxas. That said, I think he's grossly overlooking off-panel feats.

Off panel feats are tricky to deal with. They're often hyperbolized, and commonly lack information such as who, what, where, when, how, and why. This certainly makes them less reliable as a whole. That said, we know some of Abraxas' off-panel feats. He was casually destroying universes just by approaching them. Don't really know how, or why, but that's not not hyperbolized. He's kind of like a miniature Anti-Monitor.

IMO, Abraxas wins. I'm not arguing who would win, so much as I am arguing who has the superior on panel feats... Just to be clear.

Originally posted by Galan007
You're overlooking what I'm saying, bud. Kubik's on panel feats (ie. feats he preformed on panel) are superior to those feats Abraxas preformed on panel.

...But you're right: in a contest of implied power, Abraxas is far greater.

I'm not arguing who would win, so much as I am arguing who has the superior on panel feats... Just to be clear.

Originally posted by Cogito
Feats are the only thing that determine who is more powerful, until you deal with featless characters (e.g. many abstracts).

IMO, Galan is correct in that Kubik's on panel feats are superior to Abraxas. That said, I think he's grossly overlooking off-panel feats.

Off panel feats are tricky to deal with. They're often hyperbolized, and commonly lack information such as who, what, where, when, how, and why. This certainly makes them less reliable as a whole. That said, we know some of Abraxas' off-panel feats. He was casually destroying universes just by approaching them. Don't really know how, or why, but that's not not hyperbolized. He's kind of like a miniature Anti-Monitor.

IMO, Abraxas wins. We go by comparisons. Just because Ultraman lifts a book with infinite pages that doesn't mean he's stronger than the Hulk.

Abraxas is far more formidable and powerful than Am who needed tech and the element of surprise to get away with what he did.

Originally posted by zopzop
It's been dealt with. The Embodiment of the MULTIVERSE was powerless vs Abraxas. A universal scale reality warper (according to the Rogue Celestials) was powerless against Abraxas. This same universal scale reality warper had the Rogue Celestials in a panic.

ONE unnamed Celestial had TWO FULL CUBE BEINGS (Kosmos and Kubik) in fear of their lives.

Abraxas >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kubik.

I wouldn't say Eternity was powerless vs Abraxas. Power implys more then one thing, he put things into motion that woud bring about Abraxas's downfall (or at least have a good shot at it). That is why he chose Roma, and he chose wisely I would say! Eternitys fear of him did not stop him from trying to protect himself!

Originally posted by Galan007
You're overlooking what I'm saying, bud. Kubik's on panel feats (ie. feats he preformed on panel) are superior to those feats Abraxas preformed on panel.

...But you're right: in a contest of implied power, Abraxas is greater.

I'm not arguing who would win, so much as I am arguing who has the superior on panel feats... Just to be clear.

Agreed

Originally posted by zopzop
It's been dealt with. The Embodiment of the MULTIVERSE was powerless vs Abraxas. A universal scale reality warper (according to the Rogue Celestials) was powerless against Abraxas. This same universal scale reality warper had the Rogue Celestials in a panic.

Abraxas >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kubik.


It's laughable to me how some intentionally demean Abraxas.

That aside, Kubik has better on panel feats than Abraxas ~~>
Originally posted by kevdude

I wouldn't say Eternity was powerless vs Abraxas.
Power implys more then one thing,
he put things into motion that woud bring about Abraxas's downfall
(or at least have a good shot at it).

That is why he chose Roma, and he chose wisely I would say!
Eternitys fear of him did not stop him from trying to protect himself!

The power of the Multiversal Space-Time continuum was helpless against Abraxas.

Abraxas was phucking up ALL of Eternity/Infinity from the inside.

Eternity didn't do shit to put anything into motion,
in fact, Eternity only went begging to mr plot device (Reed) for help.

Oh, and who told you Eternity chose Roma?

Merlin chose Roma to be Omniversal guardian,
and Merlin empowered himself with the Energy Matrix and took the mantle of Omniversal guardian cause he wanted to,
no one (including Eternity) chose/nominated him.

Originally posted by Mr Master
That aside, Kubik has better on panel feats than Abraxas ~~> Is it funny to you because Abraxas does have better on panel feats than Kubik? If so, mind telling me which on panel feat(s) you are referring to?

When I say 'on panel feats', I mean actual feats that occurred before our eyes, within the pages of the comics in question--this obviously does not include off panel feats, or character statements.

Did Kubik place somekind of limitations to its self like Molecule man?

Originally posted by Mr Master


It's laughable to me how some intentionally demean Abraxas.

That aside, Kubik has better on panel feats than Abraxas ~~>

The power of the Multiversal Space-Time continuum was helpless against Abraxas.

Abraxas was phucking up ALL of Eternity/Infinity from the inside.

Eternity didn't do shit to put anything into motion,
in fact, Eternity only went begging to mr plot device (Reed) for help.

Oh, and who told you Eternity chose Roma?

Merlin chose Roma to be Omniversal guardian,
and Merlin empowered himself with the Energy Matrix and took the mantle of Omniversal guardian cause he wanted to,
no one (including Eternity) chose/nominated him.

I agree with you looking more into her story(wiki) that Merlin did chose Roma instead of Eternity chosing her. I was mainly going by what I've read from this story and how Abraxas and her conversation went...

Originally posted by Galan007

Is it funny to you because Abraxas does have better on panel feats than Kubik?
Yes.

Kubik was able to battle, and ultimately defeat one reality
which was not as powerful as a single Eternity.

While Abraxas was merging many Eternities (all more powerful) and without effort,
well, he did need to approach a Universe to warp its reality. (if you call that effort)
Abraxas had caused Multiversal wide disruption,
and the actual sentience of the Multiversal Space-Time Continuum
showed Reed all the UniverseS Abraxas had merged represented
by the dead Galactuses,
and further,
how "All of Eternity's" balance was now upset because of Abraxas.

If that wasn't enough, this mighty power was helpless.

That aside,
it was clear in the story that nothing short of a power that = the UN was going to stop Abraxas.

That's an indisputable fact.

Kubik, and I know Kubik, has never demonstrated power even close to that scale.

Again, I wasn't looking for character statements, implied power, or off panel feats. Abraxas is definitely superior in those areas. I have only been referring to on panel displays of power.

That said, Abraxas blurred the walls of dimensional space, which allowed creatures of the multiverse to mix--this was confirmed in the pages of the comics in question, AND his bios. That is what we saw him do on panel. Other side of the coin, Kubik gesturely warped an entire universe into a palm-sized sphere that he could have easily crushed in his hands. That is what we saw him do on panel.

The latter, imo, is superior to the former.

Originally posted by Galan007
Again, I wasn't looking for character statements, implied power, or off panel feats. Abraxas is definitely superior in those areas. I have only been referring to on panel displays of power.

That said, Abraxas blurred the walls of dimensional space, which allowed creatures of the multiverse to mix--this was confirmed in the pages of the comics in question, AND his bios. That is what we saw him do on panel. Other side of the coin, Kubik gesturely warped an entire universe into a palm-sized sphere that he could have easily crushed in his hands. That is what we saw him do on panel.

The latter, imo, is superior to the former. Portrayal always trump feats otherwise characters like Odin should defeat characters like Galactus. Be consistent you change stances depending on who/what you're debating for or against.

You're invisible to me now, quanchi (thank god), but I can only assume your post was directed toward me in the same trollish fashion it normally is.

If that is the case (if it's not, I apologize), please understand that you are wasting your time. I won't respond to you, because your posts no longer appear on my screen... So you may as well save your typing strength to troll others. Your sad trickery is ineffectual against me now.
evillaugh

Originally posted by Galan007
You're invisible to me now, quanchi (thank god), but I can only assume your post was directed toward me in the same trollish fashion it normally is.

If that is the case (if it's not, I apologize), please understand that you are wasting your time. I won't respond to you, because your posts no longer appear on my screen... So you may as well save your typing strength to troll others. Your sad trickery is ineffectual against me now.
evillaugh You can respond to my post not just respond to tell me how I don't matter( I know you still read my posts). I am consistent in how I post you aren't. Try to be more consistent is all. I always favor portrayal over feats you seem to pick and choose tbh.

Originally posted by Galan007

Again, I wasn't looking for character statements, implied power,
or off panel feats. Abraxas is definitely superior in those areas. I
have only been referring to on panel displays of power.
So who was warping Universes across the Multiverse in the Abraxas arc, if not Abraxas?
Originally posted by Galan007

That said, Abraxas blurred the walls of dimensional space,
which allowed creatures of the multiverse to mix--

this was confirmed in the pages of the comics in question, AND his bios.

That is what we saw him do on panel.
We must be looking at different stories then.

The story that I read, and saw, displayed this on panel:

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/10271725_A5.jpg

"Our Earth (universe) seems to be merging with other Alternates." (universes)


***

Someone is warping entire UniverseS by merging them together!

***


====== We see this in his Handbook ======


"Abaraxs ... power enabling him to traverse and manipulate Dimensions at will,
restructure matter ... "

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/10271783_A20.jpg

----------------------------------------

Warping entire Universes (each an Eternity) across the Multiverse >>> Warping a single Universe not equating even to a single Eternity.

---------------------------------------

How do you think those creatures from other Universes were mixing,
you think they walked across Universes because there was no barrier stopping them?

That comedy aside, and facts at hand
they were popping out of nowhere,
because their phucking entire Universes were blending together.

Originally posted by Mr Master
So who was warping Universes across the Multiverse in the Abraxas arc, if not Abraxas?

We must be looking at different stories then.

The story that I read, and saw, displayed this on panel:

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/10271725_A5.jpg

"Our Earth (universe) seems to be merging with other Alternates." (universes)


***

Someone is warping entire UniverseS by merging them together!

***


====== We see this in his Handbook ======


"Abaraxs ... power enabling him to traverse and manipulate Dimensions at will,
restructure matter ... "

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/10271783_A20.jpg

----------------------------------------

Warping entire Universes (each an Eternity) across the Multiverse >>> Warping a single Universe not equating even to a single Eternity.

---------------------------------------

How do you think those creatures from other Universes were mixing,
you think they walked across Universes because there was no barrier stopping them?

That comedy aside, and facts at hand
they were popping out of nowhere,
because their phucking entire Universes were blending together.

Originally posted by Mr Master
"Our Earth (universe) seems to be merging with other Alternates." (universes) Reed explicitly said "our earth." How in the world you are equating "our earth" to "our universe" is entirely beyond me..? Seems like you are digging deep to try and make that feat seem better than it is.

Originally posted by Mr Master
How do you think those creatures from other Universes were mixing,
you think they walked across Universes because there was no barrier stopping them? Um, I understand you're trying to be humorous, but you seem to have overlooked my last post. I specifically said: "Abraxas blurred the walls of dimensional space, which allowed creatures of the multiverse to mix." So yeah, I know full-well that Abraxas was responsible for the above... But it's certainly not as 'uber' as you're making it out to be.

Originally posted by Galan007

Reed explicitly said "our earth." How in the world you are equating
"our earth" to "our universe" is entirely beyond me..? Seems like you
are digging deep to try and make that feat seem better than it is.


Wait so now you're bringing Abraxas down to a planetary warper?

Or wait, a planetary warper on a Multi-Universal or Multiversal scale?

Oh I see, you think Abraxas only merged planets from different Universes.


I completely disagree but as you wish.


I suppose this is why the "the Multiverse ...
... is shifting as constantly as the ocean crashes on a sand of castle?"

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/10271759_A21.jpg


Abraxas was only merging planets huh.

So Reed meant planets huh?

This is why Reed said bending Reality means nothing to him,
this is why his Handbook bio states he can manipulate UniverseS at will,
this is why the Multiversal Space-Time Continuum was afraid, helpless and went seeking help,
because of the mean "planetary warper" walking around.

Give me a phucking break, this shits gone too far.
Originally posted by Galan007

Um, I understand you're trying to be humorous, but you seem to
have overlooked my last post. I specifically said: "Abraxas
blurred the walls of dimensional space, which allowed creatures of the multiverse to mix." So yeah, I know full-well that Abraxas was
responsible for the above... But it's certainly not as 'uber' as you're
making it out to be.
Right. Warping entire UniverseS across the Multiverse is not uber at all.

Originally posted by Galan007
But it's certainly not as 'uber' as you're making it out to be.

It's pretty high end. I can recall you being impressed by less than this that's for sure. Be consistent.

Originally posted by Mr Master


Wait so now you're bringing Abraxas down to a planetary warper?

Or wait, a planetary warper on a Multi-Universal or Multiversal scale?

Oh I see, you think Abraxas only merged planets from different Universes.


I completely disagree but as you wish.


I suppose this is why the "the Multiverse ...
... is shifting as constantly as the ocean crashes on a sand of castle?"

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/10271759_A21.jpg


Abraxas was only merging planets huh.

So Reed meant planets huh?

This is why Reed said bending Reality means nothing to him,
this is why his Handbook bio states he can manipulate UniverseS at will,
this is why the Multiversal Space-Time Continuum was afraid, helpless and went seeking help,
because of the mean "planetary warper" walking around.

Give me a phucking break, this shits gone too far.

Right. Warping entire UniverseS across the Multiverse is not uber at all. Eh, wut?

You posted a scan of Abraxas randomly amalgamating various characters from different earths, and called it a universal+ feat. THAT is all I was commenting on in my last post. Please read my posts instead of consistently misconstruing them.

...As for the scan you just posted: I do not believe Abraxas was responsible for the multiverse 'constantly shifting'--or at least Reed never stated such. Imo, that scene implied that the multiverse constantly changes naturally--and considering the multiverse equates to an infinite number of universes, that is a very logical conclusion (unless you think the multiverse is completely stagnant and never changes in any way/shape/form..?)

Originally posted by zopzop
A Full Cube Being (Kubik) beat a half Cube Being (Beyonder) which is expected but nothing impressive. Abraxas' very presence put MULTI-Eternity into a panicked state (I think he was actually comatosed). He didn't even have to lift a finger to attack MULTI-Eternity.

ok, now see, THIS is wherein the problems begin.

multi-eternity was......COMATOSE???? W.T.F.

maybe abraxas does weird things to you zop, makes you say things that you don't really mean. and please, you or....ANYONE, show me where--on panel--it was shown that multi-eternity was "panicked". or where he was "scared sh!tless". PLEASE show me or STOP MAKING THIS SH!T UP. captain universe mentioned a constant balance of order and chaos in the multiverse. abraxas' arrival threw that balance out of whack. that is a hell of a lot different from saying multi-eternity was in any way AT ALL "afraid" of abraxas. did his servants rally to try and stop him? of course. but to say multi was "scared" or (un-frickin-believeably) COMATOSE!!! is nothing but the purest, unbridled speculation. comatose???? zop, you're killing me.

and, just for the record--for all the talk that the 'multiverse was powerless before him', guess what?

the MULTIVERSE WON. it figured out a way to beat him.

reed is an infinitesimally small part of.... THE MULTIVERSE. franklin and valeria? yep, you guessed it--part of the MULTIVERSE. galactus? yep. un? yep. so maybe multi-eternity didn't manifest into one SINGLE universe to actively combat him because he knew it was covered already. multi-eternity is the sum totality--all of creation exists as part of him. reed, the un, galactus--all those things are MANIFESTED PARTS of him. and THEY WON.

this is getting ridiculous.

Originally posted by Galan007
...As for the scan you just posted: I do not believe Abraxas was responsible for the multiverse 'constantly shifting'--or at least Reed never stated such. Imo, that scene implied that the multiverse constantly changes naturally--and considering the multiverse equates to an infinite number of universes, that is a very logical conclusion (unless you think the multiverse is completely stagnant and never changes in any way/shape/form..?)

that is exactly the way i interpretted that comment as well. i concede it is open to interpretation however (which is why i think this whole abraxas thing needs to be discussed as matter of OPINION instead of attempting to present everything as FACT) because, like everything else in that arc, reed's dialogue really is a little vague.

Originally posted by Galan007
Eh, wut?

You posted a scan of Abraxas randomly amalgamating various
characters from different earths, and called it a universal+ feat.
THAT is all I was commenting on in my last post.

Please read my posts instead of consistently misconstruing them.
Actually I posted a scan of Reed stating that his Reality
was merging with other alternate Realities:

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/10271725_A5.jpg

"Our Earth (universe) seems to be merging with other Alternates." (universes)

-----------------------------

If you believe that Abraxas was randomly selecting individual
characters from different earths to mix together and that was the
big deal of the story,
we have nothing further to discuss here in this particular debate friend.

Btw. I always read all the posts of any person I'm debating with.

This is what you posted prior and what I replied to:
Originally posted by Galan007

Reed explicitly said "our earth."

How in the world you are equating "our earth" to "our universe" is entirely beyond me..?

Seems like you are digging deep to try and make that feat seem better than it is.

THAT is all you were commenting on.

Peace and love.
Originally posted by Galan007

...As for the scan you just posted:
I do not believe Abraxas was responsible for the multiverse
'constantly shifting'--or at least Reed never stated such.
Imo, that scene implied that the multiverse constantly changes
naturally--and considering the multiverse equates to an
infinite number of universes, that is a very logical conclusion

(unless you think the multiverse is completely stagnant and never
changes in any way/shape/form..?)
Eh, wut?

So,
it wasn't the fact that there's an entity that's passing Universes
and as he does so he disrupts them by merging them which
ultimately leads to collapse?

So,
it wasn't what seemed logical which was since the Multiversal
Space-Time Continuum's balance was "upset" due to Abraxas
the Multiverse was "shifting as constantly as the Ocean crashing
on a sand castle."

Damn, that sounds violent

That aside, so Abraxas was not responsible for this because according to you,
the Multiverse is always shifting violently like this?

Although the whole phucking story revolved around Abraxas
being the center of all the chaos.



And, I don't add extra thoughts to unproven self-made ideas.

Like, where on panel,
or in a handbook,
does it state that the Multiverse is always shifting out of place?
That would mean there's a constant imbalance, and that's not true.

Because if that was a fact,
then no one would ever be able to find their Universe after they exit it.

The Fury found Reality 238 after jumping across UniverseS fighting MJJ,
because 238 was in the same exact location as when the Fury left.

If Universes are constantly shifting out of place then the 238 Reality
should not have been in the same place.

Or are you talking about DC facts and attempting to attribute them to Marvel?

Better yet, just show me the evidence (Marvel Comics) where this stated,
on panel or in Handbooks.

Originally posted by leonidas

and, just for the record--for all the talk that the 'multiverse was powerless before him', guess what?

the MULTIVERSE WON. it figured out a way to beat him.

reed is an infinitesimally small part of.... THE MULTIVERSE. franklin
and valeria? yep, you guessed it--part of the MULTIVERSE. galactus?
yep. un? yep. so maybe multi-eternity didn't manifest into one
SINGLE universe to actively combat him because he knew it was
covered already. multi-eternity is the sum totality--all of creation
exists as part of him. reed, the un, galactus--all those things are
MANIFESTED PARTS of him. and THEY WON.

Actually good friend you missed one person, the true saviour of the story,
the one person who is not bound to Eternity/Infinity.

Roma.

It was Roma's manipulations/prep that allowed Franky/Valeria to resurrect Galactus,
which in turn served it's purpose to retrieve the UN.

Roma, is an absolute sentience just like Merlin,
meaning they're not connected to any other alternate selves,
other than beings that they themselves have created as
representatives of themselves across the realities.

Roma is not bound by space-time and in fact can and does exist
quite comfortably outside it, under her own power, under her own
fortress overlooking the whole Omniverse from outside, above.

So, Eternity/Infinity are lucky she got their back, or Eternity would not have won.

Originally posted by leonidas
ok, now see, THIS is wherein the problems begin.

multi-eternity was......COMATOSE???? W.T.F.

maybe abraxas does weird things to you zop, makes you say things that you don't really mean. and please, you or....ANYONE, show me where--on panel--it was shown that multi-eternity was "panicked". or where he was "scared sh!tless". PLEASE show me or STOP MAKING THIS SH!T UP. captain universe mentioned a constant balance of order and chaos in the multiverse. abraxas' arrival threw that balance out of whack. that is a hell of a lot different from saying multi-eternity was in any way AT ALL "afraid" of abraxas. did his servants rally to try and stop him? of course. but to say multi was "scared" or (un-frickin-believeably) COMATOSE!!! is nothing but the purest, unbridled speculation. comatose???? zop, you're killing me.

and, just for the record--for all the talk that the 'multiverse was powerless before him', guess what?

the MULTIVERSE WON. it figured out a way to beat him.

reed is an infinitesimally small part of.... THE MULTIVERSE. franklin and valeria? yep, you guessed it--part of the MULTIVERSE. galactus? yep. un? yep. so maybe multi-eternity didn't manifest into one SINGLE universe to actively combat him because he knew it was covered already. multi-eternity is the sum totality--all of creation exists as part of him. reed, the un, galactus--all those things are MANIFESTED PARTS of him. and THEY WON.

this is getting ridiculous.

I said, "I think he was comatose" because I wasn't sure. I'll respond to the rest of the post later.

PS Mr. M, I think I got on panel proof that those universes being "warped" by Abraxas were destroyed exactly as you were arguing before. I need to reread the issue but I think you were right.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Actually good friend you missed one person, the true saviour of the story,
the one person who is not bound to Eternity/Infinity.

Roma.

It was Roma's manipulations/prep that allowed Franky/Valeria to resurrect Galactus,
which in turn served it's purpose to retrieve the UN.

Roma, is an absolute sentience just like Merlin,
meaning they're not connected to any other alternate selves,
other than beings that they themselves have created as
representatives of themselves across the realities.

Roma is not bound by space-time and in fact can and does exist
quite comfortably outside it, under her own power, under her own
fortress overlooking the whole Omniverse from outside, above.

So, Eternity/Infinity are lucky she got their back, or Eternity would not have won.

wait a second. are you contending that had the multiverse not come into existence roma would still have.....existed somehow, independent of any "creation"? if so, i'd love to hear how you think that's possible. if not, roma is still a creature of the multiverse. unique, bu still OF creation.

Originally posted by zopzop

Mr. M, I think I got on panel proof that those universes being "warped"
by Abraxas were destroyed exactly as you were arguing before.
I don't doubt it for a second.

I'm 100% certain about this fact.

.....................................................................................


(reference-Official Marvel Handbook 2006 - Abraxas bio)

......................................................................................


His Job:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/792505_Ab2.jpg

Occupation: "Dimensional Destroyer"

......................................................................................


His power"

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/10271783_A20.jpg

"Abaraxs ... power enabling him to traverse and manipulate Dimensions at will,
restructure matter ... "

......................................................................................


What he did

AB - FF Ultimate Guide bio:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/792539_Ab6.jpg

"He can restructure matter and convert physical matter into pure energy ...
he has destroyed entire PLANES of Reality"

......................................................................................


On panel, Nova confirmed that Abraxas had taken out her Universe:

http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/10271568_A11.jpg

"Brave words, CM. But words, and even deeds did little to save my Reality"


==============================

==============================


Abraxas is the embodiment of Destruction,
he destroys Universes because it's in his power to do so.

Abraxas (under his own power) is the destroyer of All that ever was, is or will be!

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/10264192_AB3.jpg

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/10264193_AB4.jpg

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/10264152_AB2.jpg

This is why the Multiversal Space-Time Continuum was needed help against Abraxas,
actually, ... could do nothing against Abraxas.

..............................................................................................


So, bull shit aside, I have a question to the wagon against Abraxas.


How was Abraxas going to shatter these UniverseS?


http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/792418_Ab3.jpg

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/792419_Ab4.jpg

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/792420_Ab5.jpg

"Imagine each of those Worlds like sand in an hourglass ...
an hourglass which Abraxas will shatter"

Originally posted by leonidas

wait a second. are you contending that had the multiverse not
come into existence roma would still have.....existed somehow,
independent of any "creation"? if so, i'd love to hear how you think
that's possible. if not, roma is still a creature of the multiverse.
unique, bu still OF creation.
Roma does not need Eternity/Infinity to exist.

I got tons of scans that prove that.

As far as Roma and/or Merlin existing without there ever having been a Multiverse
I can't answer.

I know this though, there has never been an established origin for either.

In fact, when they first appeared on panel
it was as though they were "Gods" acting on their own behalf.
"Gods" who always were,
and who have been tending to the development of reality.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Roma does not need Eternity/Infinity to exist.

I got tons of scans that prove that.

As far as Roma and/or Merlin existing without there ever having been a Multiverse
I can't answer.

I know this though, there has never been an established origin for either.

In fact, when they first appeared on panel
it was as though they were "Gods" acting on their own behalf.
"Gods" who always were,
and who have been tending to the development of reality.

so if you can't say they would have existed outside of creation (which only stands to reason) they were indeed (like reed and galactus and the un, etc....,) PART of the multiverse. which is all i said in the first place. the multiverse figured out a way to win.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Actually I posted a scan of Reed stating that his Reality
was merging with other alternate Realities:

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/10271725_A5.jpg

"Our Earth (universe) seems to be merging with other Alternates." (universes) No.

Reed explicitly stated: "our EARTH (earth) seems to be merging with other alternates (earths.)" One world's creatures melding does NOT imply that entire universes were melding.

Impose your opinion on that scene if you'd like. I'll just stick with what was stated by the "omniscient" Reed Richards.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Btw. I always read all the posts of any person I'm debating with.

This is what you posted prior and what I replied to:

THAT is all you were commenting on. Um, duh? That's what I just said.

Originally posted by Mr Master
That aside, so Abraxas was not responsible for this because according to you,
the Multiverse is always shifting violently like this? No more absurd of an idea than you suggesting that an infinite amount of universes (the multiverse) is completely stagnant and never changes in the slightest.

Additionally, the "omniscient" Reed Richards never stated Abraxas was responsible for the multiverse constantly changing. You merely assumed that's what he was referring to.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Like, where on panel,
or in a handbook,
does it state that the Multiverse is always shifting out of place?
That would mean there's a constant imbalance, and that's not true. I suggest you read the latest volume of Exiles in it's entirety. The answers you seek lie there.

Originally posted by Mr Master
..............................................................................................


So, bull shit aside, I have a question to the wagon against Abraxas.


How was Abraxas going to shatter these UniverseS?


http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/792418_Ab3.jpg

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/792419_Ab4.jpg

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/792420_Ab5.jpg

"Imagine each of those Worlds like sand in an hourglass ...
an hourglass which Abraxas will shatter"

i somehow missed this. but the question is easy, you just placed emphasis on the wrong part. the comparison was not the WORLDS to the hourglass. the worlds were compared to the SAND in the hourglass. drop the hourglass and the sand is still intact but the shell that held them in place--that kept them ordered--is gone. this simply meant (imo) that he was merging the worlds, blurring lines. and that is what was shown. each world would in effect cease to be because it would no longer exist individually. it doens't mean he was going around 'killing/destroying' universes. he was a force of chaos according to cap universe. that hourglass scene only reconfirms what was known and shown as regards abraxas imo.

Originally posted by leonidas
ok, now see, THIS is wherein the problems begin.

multi-eternity was......COMATOSE???? W.T.F.

maybe abraxas does weird things to you zop, makes you say things that you don't really mean. and please, you or....ANYONE, show me where--on panel--it was shown that multi-eternity was "panicked". or where he was "scared sh!tless". PLEASE show me or STOP MAKING THIS SH!T UP. captain universe mentioned a constant balance of order and chaos in the multiverse. abraxas' arrival threw that balance out of whack. that is a hell of a lot different from saying multi-eternity was in any way AT ALL "afraid" of abraxas. did his servants rally to try and stop him? of course. but to say multi was "scared" or (un-frickin-believeably) COMATOSE!!! is nothing but the purest, unbridled speculation. comatose???? zop, you're killing me.

and, just for the record--for all the talk that the 'multiverse was powerless before him', guess what?

the MULTIVERSE WON. it figured out a way to beat him.

reed is an infinitesimally small part of.... THE MULTIVERSE. franklin and valeria? yep, you guessed it--part of the MULTIVERSE. galactus? yep. un? yep. so maybe multi-eternity didn't manifest into one SINGLE universe to actively combat him because he knew it was covered already. multi-eternity is the sum totality--all of creation exists as part of him. reed, the un, galactus--all those things are MANIFESTED PARTS of him. and THEY WON.

this is getting ridiculous.

The Multiverse won? You mean the UN won. That was the ONLY thing (don't know why the LT didn't interfere) that stopped him and the ONLY thing he feared. And even then it had to be wielded by someone like Reed Richards who has a history of godlike shenanigans and the only UN that would work was the 616 reality one (apparently, since they would have had access to alt reality UNs if they wanted them).

A snapshot of Eternity while Roma explains what was going on :
http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/5009/sadfacem.th.jpg

He looks calm doesn't he? Add in the fact that BOTH of his helpers/caretakers (Captain Universe and Roma) were powerless before Abraxas and a picture starts forming.

Merlyn used to train under a SS in Necrom. And then used the Matrix for his power.

He was created in the multiverse, and then went to form the Braddock Corps after he rose to power.

Oddly enough, Merlyn owes Pheonix quite a bit of credit...

To what Leo was saying.

Originally posted by zopzop
The Multiverse won? You mean the UN won. That was the ONLY thing (don't know why the LT didn't interfere) that stopped him and the ONLY thing he feared. And even then it had to be wielded by someone like Reed Richards who has a history of godlike shenanigans and the only UN that would work was the 616 reality one (apparently, since they would have had access to alt reality UNs if they wanted them).

A snapshot of Eternity while Roma explains what was going on :
http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/5009/sadfacem.th.jpg

He looks calm doesn't he? Add in the fact that BOTH of his helpers/caretakers (Captain Universe and Roma) were powerless before Abraxas and a picture starts forming.

is the un part of the multiverse.....? so yeah, a power within the multiverse was great enough to defeat him. the multiverse won. you somehow disagree with this point?

and i'm not too sure what to call that expression on eternity--'scared ****less' isn't wouldn't be it though......

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Merlyn used to train under a SS in Necrom. And then used the Matrix for his power.

He was created in the multiverse, and then went to form the Braddock Corps after he rose to power.

Oddly enough, Merlyn owes Pheonix quite a bit of credit...

To what Leo was saying.

gracias. i was saving the whole merlyn thing to see what was gonna come of all this nonsense.

Originally posted by Galan007
No.

Reed explicitly stated: "our EARTH (earth) seems to be merging with other alternates (earths.)" One world's creatures melding does NOT imply that entire universes were melding.

Impose your opinion on that scene if you'd like. I'll just stick with what was stated by the "omniscient" Reed Richards.

Um, duh? That's what I just said.

No more absurd of an idea than you suggesting that an infinite amount of universes (the multiverse) is completely stagnant and never changes in the slightest.

Additionally, the "omniscient" Reed Richards never stated Abraxas was responsible for the multiverse constantly changing. You merely assumed that's what he was referring to.

I suggest you read the latest volume of Exiles in it's entirety. The answers you seek lie there.

Do you think that Reed saying "Reality" "Earths" and "Alternates" as meaning the same thing, don't you think Galan? That's how I viewed it.

Agreeing with yah about the multiverse constantly changes naturally and not Abraxas causing it, imo.

Originally posted by leonidas
is the un part of the multiverse.....? so yeah, a power within the multiverse was great enough to defeat him. the multiverse won. you somehow disagree with this point?

and i'm not too sure what to call that expression on eternity--'scared ****less' isn't wouldn't be it though......


No one even knows who or what created the UN or where it comes from. That thing, in the right hands, was powerful enough to REMAKE the multiverse. How could it be a part of the multiverse if it's powerful enough to end and then remake it?
http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/8314/doover.th.jpg

And what would you call that expression on Eternity's face? Joy? Elation? Pleasant surprise? As Roma is discussing the end of all time.

Originally posted by leonidas

so if you can't say they would have existed outside of creation (which only stands to reason) they were indeed (like reed and
galactus and the un, etc....,) PART of the multiverse. which is all i said
in the first place. the multiverse figured out a way to win.
But they do exist outside reality, and when they want to they are in reality.

What I said was, I don't know how Merlin and/or Roma came to be.

But, considering their first appearance,
it seemed as though they were gods who alway were.

Originally posted by Galan007

Reed explicitly stated: "our EARTH (earth) seems to be merging
with other alternates (earths.)" One world's creatures melding does
NOT imply that entire universes were melding.

"I could theorize we are in the wrong Reality" (Universe)

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/10271725_A5.jpg

"Our Earth" (universe) "seems to be merging with other Alternates." (universes)

yawn
Originally posted by Galan007

Impose your opinion on that scene if you'd like. I'll just stick
with what was stated by the "omniscient" Reed Richards.

He knows alot.

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/792403_Ab.jpg

"We're dealing with a being of Godlike powers, BENDING Reality means nothing to him"


Meh, he's probably talking about the numerous random individuals that Abraxas mixed.

That is "Reality bending" on a "God-like" level after all.
Originally posted by Galan007

No more absurd of an idea than you suggesting that an infinite amount of
universes (the multiverse) is completely stagnant and never changes in the
slightest.
So, you came back with your needless wit but with no proof, not a single shred of evidence.

Let me know when you got something.
Originally posted by Galan007

Additionally, the "omniscient" Reed Richards never stated Abraxas was
responsible for the multiverse constantly changing. You merely assumed that's
what he was referring to.
Like he had too when the whole phuckin story revolves around Abraxas.
Originally posted by Galan007

I suggest you read the latest volume of Exiles in it's entirety.

The answers you seek lie there.
I have all the Exiles books, and read all of them.

Bring it homie, tell me the issue and/or page.

Don't come at me trying to state something with confidence,
if you got nothing but your idealism as back up.

"I suggest you read ... " ... what? ... lmao

Originally posted by leonidas

i somehow missed this. but the question is easy, you just placed
emphasis on the wrong part. the comparison was not the WORLDS to
the hourglass. the worlds were compared to the SAND in the
hourglass. drop the hourglass and the sand is still intact but the shell
that held them in place--that kept them ordered--is gone. this simply
meant (imo) that he was merging the worlds, blurring lines. and that
is what was shown. each world would in effect cease to be because it
would no longer exist individually. it doens't mean he was going
around 'killing/destroying' universes. he was a force of chaos
according to cap universe. that hourglass scene only reconfirms what
was known and shown as regards abraxas imo.
I disagree. I did enjoy the speculation though.

Abraxas collapsed many Realities via merging them.

The writer is just again, clarifying what it is Abraxas does.

Reality destroyer!

Simple.

......................................................................................


His Job:



Occupation: "Dimensional Destroyer"

......................................................................................


His power"



"Abaraxs ... power enabling him to traverse and manipulate Dimensions at will,
restructure matter ... "

......................................................................................


What he did

AB - FF Ultimate Guide bio:



"He can restructure matter and convert physical matter into pure energy ...
he has destroyed entire PLANES of Reality"

......................................................................................

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb

Merlyn used to train under a SS in Necrom. And then used the Matrix for his power.

He was created in the multiverse,
and then went to form the Braddock Corps after he rose to power.

I know Merlin's story well, but thanx anyway.

That aside,

Show or tell me where you saw Merlin being created in the Multiverse,
or being created at all.

Or show/tell me where anything was stated concerning Merlin's origin.

I have all his appearances,
just tell me where and I'll post it for both of us.

Originally posted by zopzop

No one even knows who or what created the UN or where it comes
from. That thing, in the right hands, was powerful enough to REMAKE
the multiverse. How could it be a part of the multiverse if it's powerful
enough to end and then remake it?

And what would you call that expression on Eternity's face? Joy?
Elation? Pleasant surprise? As Roma is discussing the end of all time.

Originally posted by Mr Master
"I could theorize we are in the wrong Reality" (Universe)

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/10271725_A5.jpg

"Our Earth" (universe) "seems to be merging with other Alternates." (universes)

yawn Whole quote:
"I could theorize that we are in the wrong reality--BUT THAT IS NOT THE CASE. Our EARTH seems to be merging with other alternates."

It was clearly a planetary-level feat. Nothing more.

Originally posted by Mr Master
He knows alot.

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/792403_Ab.jpg

"We're dealing with a being of Godlike powers, BENDING Reality means nothing to him" I could warp a Pepsi into a Coke, and technically have "bent reality." You're applying to much of you own conjecture into some of the instances you're pointing out, me thinks.

Look, I'm not saying Abraxas wasn't a universal power--I'm just talking about what we SAW him do on panel.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I have all the Exiles books, and read all of them.

Bring it homie, tell me the issue and/or page. Read the last series again, then (I'm at work so I can't be bothered to post scans.) It is made quite clear that the multiverse isn't some stagnant thing that never changes... the notion that it is makes me chuckle, in fact. By it's very nature, infinity is ALWAYS changing. Arguing that fact is laughable, imo.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I know Merlin's story well, but thanx anyway.

That aside,

Show or tell me where you saw Merlin being created in the Multiverse,
or being created at all.

Or show/tell me where anything was stated concerning Merlin's origin.

I have all his appearances,
just tell me where and I'll post it for both of us. http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/merlinyn.htm

Says right there in the first two paragraphs of history that he was born of an Earth

Plus, Merlyn's Godlike power comes from inside the multiverse anyway so that's irrelevant.

Originally posted by Galan007

Whole quote:

"I could theorize that we are in the wrong reality--BUT THAT IS
NOT THE CASE. Our EARTH seems to be merging with
other alternates."

It was clearly a planetary-level feat. Nothing more.
Nah.

The reason Reed said they may be in the wrong Universe,
is because other freakin Universes just appeared as one with his.

He then follows, oh no, it's that we're in the wrong Universe,
it's that other Universes have merged with ours.

Planetary level feat? .... laughable.
Originally posted by Galan007

I could warp a Pepsi into a Coke, and technically have "bent
reality." You're applying to much of you own conjecture into some
of the instances you're pointing out, me thinks.
And of course,
bending reality on that scale or planetary for that matter
demands the attention of the Omniversal guardian, terrifies Franklin,
and causes the power of the Multiversal Space-Time Continuum to
become desperate and seek help from mr plot device because its helpless.

Also, what would you call it,
when Abraxas mind wiped and comatose Uatu (a Watcher) from somewhere in the Multiverse outside of 616.

This is the same pisless Uatu who held an alternate universe in his hands,
and placed it in his chest like a jelly bean.

Or killing all of Reed's alternates simultaneously.

How do you categorize that if he's just planetary?
Originally posted by Galan007

Look, I'm not saying Abraxas wasn't a universal power--I'm
just talking about what we SAW him do on panel.
Cool.

Abraxas > power of the Multiversal Space-Time Continuum.
Originally posted by Galan007

Read the last series again, then (I'm at work so I can't be
bothered to post scans.) It is made quite clear that the multiverse
isn't some stagnant thing that never changes... the notion that it is
makes me chuckle, in fact. By it's very nature, infinity is ALWAYS
changing. Arguing that fact is laughable, imo.
When you get out of work, post the scans I can't find in the series.

I never said Infinity is stagnant btw.

You said,
that like in the Abraxas arc, where the Multiverse was shifting violently.
like "the ocean crashing on a sand castle" ...

this happens all the time so it shouldn't be attributed to Abraxas.

Well then, when you post those scans I'll be satisfied cause I can't find em.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Nah.

The reason Reed said they may be in the wrong Universe,
is because other freakin Universes just appeared as one with his.

He then follows, oh no, it's that we're in the wrong Universe,
it's that other Universes have merged with ours.

Planetary level feat? .... laughable. Red explicitly says: "Our EARTH." I simply cannot (and will not) follow your logic that "our earth"="our universe". That train of thought makes absolutely no sense to me.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Also, what would you call it,
when Abraxas mind wiped and comatose Uatu (a Watcher) from somewhere in the Multiverse outside of 616.

This is the same pisless Uatu who held an alternate universe in his hands,
and placed it in his chest like a jelly bean. Same Uatu who was KTFO by Rulk, as well..?

Originally posted by Mr Master
Or killing all of Reed's alternates simultaneously. This is certainly a great feat--one of Abraxas' best on panel--however, I still don't think it's on par with warping an entire universe into a palm-sized sphere. /shrug

Originally posted by Mr Master
I never said Infinity is stagnant btw. Good, cuz it quite simply can't be.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Well then, when you post those scans I'll be satisfied cause I can't find em. I'll be sure to do that. I work 48 hour shifts, though, so it'll be a few days.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/merlinyn.htm

Says right there in the first two paragraphs of history that he was born of an Earth
Yea, I know about that bio, and it doesn't clarify something.

I'm surprised cause they're very thorough.

In Captain Britain Weekly #27 or 28 I believe (I'll flip pages and post the scan)
Merlin tells CB something to the effect that
he manipulated his own existence on this plane.

That sounds to me, like even if he actually had a birth body,
he was in control before said birth.

Imo.

Also, the actual Handbook bio of Merlin tells us nothing is certain:

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/10721308_Mer.jpg


In the Marvunapp bio, like I told yall before,
it also states that Merlin is unique in the Multiverse,
with no alternates that were not created by him.

The Handbook above corroborates this.

Why would a being that is intrinsically a part of Eternity/infinity
not have alternates and/or other selves like every other sentience?
Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb

Plus,
Merlyn's Godlike power comes from inside the multiverse anyway
so that's irrelevant.
While merged he seems above that, no?

He created the Celestial Crystals which embodies the life-force of the Omniverse,
with unchallenged rights to erase these Crystals nullifying Eternity/Infinity.

I agree, this is confusing, who knows what is going on.

Originally posted by Galan007

Red explicitly says: "Our EARTH."
I simply cannot (and will not)
follow your logic that "our earth"="our universe".
That train of thought
makes absolutely no sense to me.
Then you shouldn't.

As far as sense is concerned,
you're in the wrong genre if you're looking stability in that.

These are comics friend, on top of that,
I could splatter the page with scans
where the Universes are referred to as "alternate Earths."

I think I will.
Originally posted by Galan007

Same Uatu who was KTFO by Rulk, as well..?
I did say pisless Uatu. mad
Originally posted by Galan007

This is certainly a great feat--one of Abraxas' best on panel--
however, I still don't think it's on par with warping an entire
universe into a palm-sized sphere.
An entire Universe weaker than a single alternate Eternity, let's not forget that.

That aside,
so how do you categorize Abraxas simultaneously killing all of Reed's alternates?

I'm honestly interested.
Originally posted by Galan007

Good, cuz it quite simply can't be.
pfft
Originally posted by Galan007

I'll be sure to do that. I work 48 hour shifts, though, so it'll be a few days.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I could splatter the page with scans
where the Universes are referred to as "alternate Earths."

I think I will. Unless said scans are from the Abraxas arc, they really don't matter.

Reed had no problem using words like 'universe' and 'multiverse' during that arc. No reason to think he began referring to whole universes as singular planets in that one instance, and hoped the readers would understand that it was just a 'code phrase' for something vastly larger...

Originally posted by Mr Master
An entire Universe weaker than a single alternate Eternity, let's not forget that. T'was still a full-blown universe. The scale is still there.

Sidenote: where was it stated that Beyonder's universe was < Eternity? Can't remember off-hand.

Originally posted by Mr Master
That aside,
so how do you categorize Abraxas simultaneously killing all of Reed's alternates? Hard to say. I'm not really sure what level of power is required to preform a feat like that. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007

Unless said scans are from the Abraxas arc, they really don't matter.
Said scans include Reed though.
Originally posted by Galan007

Reed had no problem using words like 'universe' and 'multiverse'
during that arc. No reason to think he began referring to whole
universes as singular planets in that one instance, and hoped the
readers would understand that it was just a 'code phrase' for
something vastly larger...
The context of the panel in full is clear imo that it refers to 616
merging with other realities.

We'll agree to disagree cause no one's gonna budge.
Originally posted by Galan007

T'was still a full-blown universe. The scale is still there.
Still weaker than an alternate Eternity though.
Originally posted by Galan007

Sidenote: where was it stated that Beyonder's universe was < Eternity?
Can't remember off-hand.

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/10721924_B.jpg

Now granted, this is before Beyonder became a full Cube being,
which then he definitely became at-least =/> an alternate Eternity.

The senseless is always a prize though,
because Beyonder is still credited with erasing Death.
Originally posted by Galan007

Hard to say.
I'm not really sure what level of power is required to preform a feat like that.
Cool.

Originally posted by Mr Master
The context of the panel in full is clear imo that it refers to 616
merging with other realities.

We'll agree to disagree cause no one's gonna budge. I whole-heartedly disagree, but we may as well keep it at this.

Originally posted by Mr Master
http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/10721924_B.jpg

Now granted, this is before Beyonder became a full Cube being,
which then he definitely became at-least =/> an alternate Eternity.

The senseless is always a prize though,
because Beyonder is still credited with erasing Death. Ok, that's the one I was thinking of. It didn't seem like Owen was referring to Beyonder's universe being any different than a 'normal' universe (in overall size, at least), but rather, Beyonder himself being weaker than Eternity.

Either way, I agree that it is a ridiculous statement to make--as none of Beyonder's high-end feats in SW were retconned.

Originally posted by Galan007
Either way, I agree that it is a ridiculous statement to make--as none of Beyonder's high-end feats in SW were retconned.

They were retconned by default when this went down :

Kubik pwning the sh|t out of the Beyonder and his "universe" :
http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/633/kubik6.th.jpg

Kubik AND Kosmos (the Beyonder + Molecule Man minus the sliver that Molecule Man hid away in Marsha) vs ONE unnamed Celestial :
http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/5578/471422ckforsuper.th.jpg

Kubik and Kosmos in the grand scheme of things :
http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/7620/nothingby.th.jpg

Stating they are insignificant compared to the other powers, even if you take this as merely meaning 'as compared to the Celestials' it still proves my point.

Death > any Celestial (exceptions being Tiamut ascended and Scathan) > Kubik > half Cube Beyonder. And then there's that issue of Quasar when the Contemplater was strolling through the Dimension of Manifestations and spies on the "Trial of Death". Seems to jibe with what Kubik told Kosmos, that the powers and principalities were putting on a show to ease Beyonder's entry into existence.
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/3493/bigshowk.th.jpg

The killing Death was a show as well as the other things he did. Retconned by default.

Originally posted by zopzop

The killing Death was a show as well as the other things he did. Retconned by default. Negatory. Death's 2006 OHOTMU bio still recognizes Beyonder having erased her during SW:
http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/10722373_All-New_OHOTMU_A-Z_03_28.jpg
(boxed in red.)

ie. Beyonder killing Death is still very much canon.

Originally posted by Galan007
Negatory. Death's 2006 OHOTMU bio still recognizes Beyonder having erased her during SW:
http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/10722342_All-New_OHOTMU_A-Z_03_28.jpg
(underlined in red.)

ie. Beyonder killing Death is still very much canon.

If on panel facts contradict handbook entries it's the on panel facts that win out no?

Nothing on panel contradicts Beyonder killing Death. And since her most recent bio fully acknowledges it as FACT, there is absolutely no logical reason to disagree.

Originally posted by Galan007
Nothing on panel contradicts Beyonder killing Death. And since her most recent bio fully acknowledges it as FACT, there is absolutely no logical reason to disagree.

This isn't correct.

Pre-Retcon :

The Beyonder wanted to kill Death and not one of the powers and principalities there had the power to stop him (even though they wanted to). Among the Cosmics present were : the Living Tribunal, Eternity, and the Celestials.

Post - Retcon :

The Molecule Man admits and Kubik later acknowledges that Eternity and the Living Tribunal as well as the Celestials are ALL more powerful than evolved Cube beings like Kubik and Kosmos. These beings were present at the trial of Death.

Death's handbook entry is dead wrong post retcon (it contradicts on panel statements) since any one of the beings I mentioned at the trial could have stepped in and stopped the Beyonder from "killing" Death. Hell Death itself could have swatted him like an insect.

Originally posted by zopzop
This isn't correct.

Pre-Retcon :

The Beyonder wanted to kill Death and not one of the powers and principalities there had the power to stop him (even though they wanted to). Among the Cosmics present were : the Living Tribunal, Eternity, and the Celestials.

Post - Retcon :

The Molecule Man admits and Kubik later acknowledges that Eternity and the Living Tribunal as well as the Celestials are ALL more powerful than evolved Cube beings like Kubik and Kosmos. These beings were present at the trial of Death.

Death's handbook entry is dead wrong post retcon (it contradicts on panel statements) since any one of the beings I mentioned at the trial could have stepped in and stopped the Beyonder from "killing" Death. Hell Death itself could have swatted him like an insect. The most recent info=the most canon. The scans you posted above are all like 20+ years old. Death's bio was published in 2006.

That said, the statements made by Marvel staff in Death's most recent bio outweigh much older character statements/your opinion on the matter. Not saying I like it, but arguing with such blatantly stated facts is illogical.

Originally posted by Galan007
The most recent info=the most canon. The scans you posted above are all like 20+ years old. Death's bio was published in 2006.

That said, the statements made by Marvel staff in Death's most recent bio outweigh much older character statements/your opinion on the matter. Not saying I like it, but arguing with such blatantly stated facts is illogical.

Correct me if I'm wrong but what does the age of the ON PANEL info have to do with anything (unless there's been another retcon)? Last time I checked "on panel" info > handbooks.

Death's bio is dead wrong. If you accept it at face value, then you are saying that post retcon half Cube Beyonder that got schooled by Kubik is more powerful than the LT, Eternity, and the Celestials combined. Since they were all there at the Trial and didn't want Death killed, yet were helpless to stop the Beyonder.

We know this to be false because ON panel Kubik, who defeated the half Cube Beyonder, admitted inferiority to the Celestials (on multiple occasions) and said that the powers put on a show for the Beyonder to ease him into existence (backed up by the Quasar issue). We also have on panel statements by the Molecule Man admitting inferiority to the Living Tribunal and Eternity.

You want me to ignore all this on panel statements and accept as fact a handbook entry that's clearly wrong?

Originally posted by zopzop
You want me to ignore all this on panel statements and accept as fact a handbook entry that's clearly wrong? Wait, so you are choosing to accept statements made in Marvel-published books released 20+ years ago, but are opting to ignore statements made in a Marvel-published book released in 2006? That's... laughable, to say the least. Like I said above: the most recent info=the most canon. That's how the proverbial 'comic wheel' has ALWAYS turned.

At any rate, I can't be bothered to reply to asinine thought processes like this any further. I'm sure Mr M will get a good chuckle, though.

Originally posted by Galan007
Wait, so you are choosing to accept statements made in Marvel-published books released 20+ years ago, and are opting to ignore statements made in a Marvel-published book released in 2006?

That's... laughable, to say the least. At any rate, I can't be bothered to reply to asinine thought processes like this any further. I'm sure Mr M will get a good chuckle, though.


Why do you get pissy like this? I'm merely stating that, ON PANEL, nothing has been retconned since those scans I posted. They are valid. The handbook entry conflicts with the on panel statements and I thought we go with the on panel statements in all cases where they conflict with handbook entries.

Originally posted by zopzop
Why do you get pissy like this? If you think I was being pissy there, you haven't seen anything.

Anywho, the the most recent info=the most canon. For instance, if a pre-new 52 comic would have been released that stated Superman was no longer vulnerable to Kryptonite, then it would generally be accepted as fact (regardless of his extensive history of being extremely vulnerable to k-nite), because it would be the most current/canon info on the subject. Ya feelz me?

Doesn't make it any less ridiculous... But ridiculous and canon pretty much go hand-in-hand. ermm

Originally posted by Mr Master
I disagree. I did enjoy the speculation though.

Abraxas collapsed many Realities via merging them.

The writer is just again, clarifying what it is Abraxas does.

Reality destroyer!

Simple.

......................................................................................


His Job:



Occupation: "Dimensional Destroyer"

......................................................................................


His power"



"Abaraxs ... power enabling him to traverse and manipulate Dimensions at will,
restructure matter ... "

......................................................................................


What he did

AB - FF Ultimate Guide bio:



"He can restructure matter and convert physical matter into pure energy ...
he has destroyed entire PLANES of Reality"

......................................................................................

i'm not sure what you are disagreeing with here. do you disagree that in the analogy that was made the worlds were the SAND?

"Imagine each of those Worlds like sand in an hourglass ...
an hourglass which Abraxas will shatter"

not sure how you could disagree with that.....

also unclear on where i'm 'speculating'. we saw he was merging worlds, blurring lines. he was in effect breaking the barriers that kept worlds from worlds. when they combined, individual realities WERE destroyed--they were combined into some new, chaotic mess. iow, when the "sand" was all mixed up and the walls holding them inside were smashed, there was no way to reorder them WITHOUT starting all over again. read: nullifier. which is perfectly in line with him being (as cap universe described him) a force of chaos.

what i've said in no way at all contradicts what was in the bio or how his character was described. the hourglass (representing an orderly multiverse) needed to be rebuilt. that is what the un did--rebuilt the hourglass.

when the bio says he destroyed realities, that doesn't imply he went around "blasting them out of existence." he destroyed their individuality by merging them. that's what was shown and that was the nature of his power as depicted on panel.