Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Who wins?

Abraxas stomps.

Can Abraxas destroy concepts under his own power? If not, he isn't beating Dream. Even temporarily.

Originally posted by Galan007
Can Abraxas destroy concepts under his own power? If not, then is isn't beating Dream. Even temporarily. Why can't he ?

dream

Abraxas destroys him. He had the ultimate concept, Multi-Eternity, in fear and begging for assistance. Multi-Eternity embodies the WHOLE Multiverse. Dream is out of his league here.

Originally posted by zopzop
Abraxas destroys him. He had the ultimate concept, Multi-Eternity, in fear and begging for assistance. Multi-Eternity embodies the WHOLE Multiverse. Dream is out of his league here.

Dream.

Originally posted by zopzop
Abraxas destroys him. He had the ultimate concept, Multi-Eternity, in fear and begging for assistance. Multi-Eternity embodies the WHOLE Multiverse. Dream is out of his league here. How in the world Eternity being scared of what Abraxas might have been able to do if left unchecked, equates to Abraxas erasing Dream on the 'conceptual plane', is entirely beyond me. ermm

Originally posted by Galan007
How in the world Eternity being scared of what Abraxas might have been able to do if left unchecked, equates to Abraxas erasing Dream on the 'conceptual plane', is entirely beyond me. ermm
Don't you know any marvel cosmic>>> any DC cosmic?

dream ftw

and this ain't the dream that dumped christina

Originally posted by abhilegend
Don't you know any marvel cosmic>>> any DC cosmic? ?

Originally posted by Galan007
How in the world Eternity being scared of what Abraxas might have been able to do if left unchecked, equates to Abraxas erasing Dream on the 'conceptual plane', is entirely beyond me. ermm

The very fact that the CONCEPTUAL BEING representing the MULTIVERSE and everything in it, was POWERLESS to stop Abraxas, tells us that Dream is getting his @$$ handed to him in this fight.

Dream.

Originally posted by zopzop
The very fact that the CONCEPTUAL BEING representing the MULTIVERSE and everything in it, was POWERLESS to stop Abraxas, tells us that Dream is getting his @$$ handed to him in this fight. In no way, shape, or form does Eternity being frightened of what Abraxas might be able to do, imply that Abraxas is capable of erasing concepts in one fell swoop.

You're letting your love for Abraxas blind you.

Originally posted by Galan007
In no way, shape, or form does Eternity being frightened of what Abraxas might be able to do, imply that Abraxas is capable of erasing concepts in one fell swoop.

You're letting your love for Abraxas blind you. Based on what does Dream win ?

i really hate abraxas. is it possible he could eliminate dream? maybe, i guess. that didn't seem to be his m.o. though. frankly, i don't know WHAT the hell he was doing. was he supposed to just walk through the whole multiverse and ...... let things collapse around him? other nullifiers exist in the multiverse. why wouldn't someone else just use it and kill him? we could speculate the 616 nullifier was somehow 'special' but there's no proof of that--or rather no proof that some other nullifier couldn't do the same thing. the whole arc was dumb and ill-conceived. if he's so great, why not just wipe out johnny before he was able to get the un? the secret location of it would have be secret forever. i actually think the arc took a turn that it was not initially supposed to. i always thought abraxas WANTED the un to use against the multiverse. then somehow, very inelegantly, we learn that he wants it to......what? keep someone else from using it against him? so, let me get this right--the un--which is some part of galactus (allegedly, and unclearly), who is a portion of eternity--can achieve something the MULTIVERSAL EMBODIMENT cannot?

terrible arc. terrible character who's basis lies mostly in narration and bios as opposed to feats. nothing he did would indicate to me he could simply eliminate a conceptual entity, but who knows? the character is so ill-conceived and ill-defined, it's impossible to say.

to reiterate--abraxas sucks.

Originally posted by leonidas
i really hate abraxas. is it possible he could eliminate dream? maybe, i guess. that didn't seem to be his m.o. though. frankly, i don't know WHAT the hell he was doing. was he supposed to just walk through the whole multiverse and ...... let things collapse around him? other nullifiers exist in the multiverse. why wouldn't someone else just use it and kill him? we could speculate the 616 nullifier was somehow 'special' but there's no proof of that--or rather no proof that some other nullifier couldn't do the same thing. the whole arc was dumb and ill-conceived. if he's so great, why not just wipe out johnny before he was able to get the un? the secret location of it would have be secret forever. i actually think the arc took a turn that it was not initially supposed to. i always thought abraxas WANTED the un to use against the multiverse. then somehow, very inelegantly, we learn that he wants it to......what? keep someone else from using it against him? so, let me get this right--the un--which is some part of galactus (allegedly, and unclearly), who is a portion of eternity--can achieve something the MULTIVERSAL EMBODIMENT cannot?

terrible arc. terrible character who's basis lies mostly in narration and bios as opposed to feats. nothing he did would indicate to me he could simply eliminate a conceptual entity, but who knows? the character is so ill-conceived and ill-defined, it's impossible to say.

to reiterate--abraxas sucks. clapclap Pretty sure it's impossible to agree with a post more.

...But I guess it shouldn't come as much of a surprise--that arc was written by Loeb, after all.

Originally posted by Galan007
In no way, shape, or form does Eternity being frightened of what Abraxas might be able to do, imply that Abraxas is capable of erasing concepts in one fell swoop.

You're letting your love for Abraxas blind you.

But I don't love Abraxas, I begrudgingly respect his power. The conceptual being representing the multiverse and everything in it was powerless to stop him and was begging for help.

Dream : the embodiment of ONE of the many aspects in ONE universe
Eternity : Embodiment of the Universe and EVERYTHING in it
Multi-Eternity : EVERY Eternity in the Multiverse (aka he represents the Multiverse and everything in it)

Multi-Eternity >>>>>>>>>>>>>Eternity>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Dream. And Abraxas was greater than Multi-Eternity!

Originally posted by zopzop
But I don't love Abraxas, I begrudgingly respect his power. The conceptual being representing the multiverse and everything in it was powerless to stop him and was begging for help.

Dream : the embodiment of ONE of the many aspects in ONE universe
Eternity : Embodiment of the Universe and EVERYTHING in it
Multi-Eternity : EVERY Eternity in the Multiverse (aka he represents the Multiverse and everything in it)

Multi-Eternity >>>>>>>>>>>>>Eternity>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Dream. And Abraxas was greater than Multi-Eternity! Though I completely disagree with this analogy, do you not see that it is possible for 'character a' to be more powerful than 'character b', without 'character a' having the power to erase 'character b' from existence?

In even simpler terms: IF Abraxas were more powerful than Dream, it doesn't mean he is capable of erasing the concept Dream embodies.

Originally posted by zopzop
But I don't love Abraxas, I begrudgingly respect his power. The conceptual being representing the multiverse and everything in it was powerless to stop him and was begging for help.

Dream : the embodiment of ONE of the many aspects in ONE universe
Eternity : Embodiment of the Universe and EVERYTHING in it
Multi-Eternity : EVERY Eternity in the Multiverse (aka he represents the Multiverse and everything in it)

Multi-Eternity >>>>>>>>>>>>>Eternity>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Dream. And Abraxas was greater than Multi-Eternity!

i don't think it follows--AT ALL--that abraxas>multi-eternity. at all. abraxas was more akin to a disease, imo, one that could not be expelled by multi, for whatever PIS reason. do we simply assume galactus>multi-eternity as well? i mean, the un did seem to be some part of him (allegedly) and we saw the un destroy and create the multi-verse. we also saw abraxas POWERLESS to prevent g from taking the un AWAY from him. so, g/un>>>>abraxas>>>multi-eternity?? please.... but we could also say that g>abraxas/un because, well, he DID take it from him and abraxas couldn't do a thing about it.

so, what do we take from this? abraxas sucks and multi-eternity is a chump who i have no doubt rulk could punch out.

Originally posted by Galan007
Do you not see that it is possible for 'character a' to be more powerful than 'character b', without 'character a' having the power to erase 'character b' from existence?

In even simpler terms: IF Abraxas were more powerful than Dream, it doesn't mean he is capable of erasing the concept Dream embodies.

His presence warps reality, I'm sure he can wipe a concept from existence.

Originally posted by zopzop
I'm sure he can wipe a concept from existence. Opinion aside, what exactly are you basing this on..?

Originally posted by Galan007
Opinion aside, what exactly are you basing this on..?

The fact that Multi-Etenrity was in fear of it's existence (no universe/no multiverse, no concept right)?

Even barring that, his presence was warping reality on a universal scale, why couldn't he erase a concept if he put his mind to it, if his mere presence was warping the fabric of reality?

Originally posted by leonidas
i don't think it follows--AT ALL--that abraxas>multi-eternity. at all. abraxas was more akin to a disease, imo, one that could not be expelled by multi, for whatever PIS reason. do we simply assume galactus>multi-eternity as well? i mean, the un did seem to be some part of him (allegedly) and we saw the un destroy and create the multi-verse. we also saw abraxas POWERLESS to prevent g from taking the un AWAY from him. so, g/un>>>>abraxas>>>multi-eternity?? please.... but we could also say that g>abraxas/un because, well, he DID take it from him and abraxas couldn't do a thing about it.

so, what do we take from this? abraxas sucks and multi-eternity is a chump who i have no doubt rulk could punch out.

Additionally, Galactus isn't one to not acknowledge a credible threat--his entire character history has proven that much.... Yet he didn't hesitate in the slightest to call Abraxas "nothing." That one statement holds more weight than most would like to admit, imo.

Originally posted by zopzop
why couldn't he erase a concept if he put his mind to it, if his mere presence was warping the fabric of reality? Because nothing he did on panel alludes to such?

Originally posted by leonidas
i don't think it follows--AT ALL--that abraxas>multi-eternity. at all. abraxas was more akin to a disease, imo, one that could not be expelled by multi, for whatever PIS reason. do we simply assume galactus>multi-eternity as well? i mean, the un did seem to be some part of him (allegedly) and we saw the un destroy and create the multi-verse. we also saw abraxas POWERLESS to prevent g from taking the un AWAY from him. so, g/un>>>>abraxas>>>multi-eternity?? please.... but we could also say that g>abraxas/un because, well, he DID take it from him and abraxas couldn't do a thing about it.

so, what do we take from this? abraxas sucks and multi-eternity is a chump who i have no doubt rulk could punch out.

The embodiment of the MULTIVERSE was powerless before Abraxas. I don't care how you want to look at it, that's what was shown on panel.

Galactus' role was snatching the UN away from Abraxas and that's what was used to destroy him and undo the things he did to the multiverse.

Being beaten by Galactus using the UN isn't a low showing at all. In that story it was stated that he had a special bond with the UN and considered it a part of him, that's how he was able to snatch it from Abraxas' hands. Nothing else they tried in that entire arc worked. It took Franklin and Valeria burning out their powers to resurrect Galactus and for him to steal the UN from Abraxas to win the day.

Originally posted by zopzop
The embodiment of the MULTIVERSE was powerless before Abraxas. I don't care how you want to look at it, that's what was shown on panel.

Galactus' role was snatching the UN away from Abraxas and that's what was used to destroy him and undo the things he did to the multiverse.

Being beaten by Galactus using the UN isn't a low showing at all. In that story it was stated that he had a special bond with the UN and considered it a part of him, that's how he was able to snatch it from Abraxas' hands. Nothing else they tried in that entire arc worked. It took Franklin and Valeria burning out their powers to resurrect Galactus and for him to steal the UN from Abraxas to win the day.

but he wasn't beaten by galactus using the un.

abraxas had it in his hands and g was able to casually take it from him while calling him 'nothing'. a regular old human, with no special connection to the un, ended abraxas. since the un is part of g (allegedly) g>>>>multi-eternity as well. were abraxas LITERALLY more powerful than the embodiment of the entire multiverse i doubt he would have walked around just letting things 'warp' or merge, or whatever the hell was happening. people are powerless against cancer. does that mean a single cancer cell>>>>>a human being? that's always been my view of abraxas.

Originally posted by leonidas
but he wasn't beaten by galactus using the un.

abraxas had it in his hands and g was able to casually take it from him while calling him 'nothing'. a regular old human, with no special connection to the un, ended abraxas. since the un is part of g (allegedly) g>>>>multi-eternity as well. were abraxas LITERALLY more powerful than the embodiment of the entire multiverse i doubt he would have walked around just letting things 'warp' or merge, or whatever the hell was happening. people are powerless against cancer. does that mean a single cancer cell>>>>>a human being? that's always been my view of abraxas. Galactus summoned it to himself and then Reed used it to defeat him. The un would also defeat Dream so really you don't have a point or a caps key apparently.

Originally posted by leonidas
but he wasn't beaten by galactus using the un.

abraxas had it in his hands and g was able to casually take it from him while calling him 'nothing'. a regular old human, with no special connection to the un, ended abraxas. since the un is part of g (allegedly) g>>>>multi-eternity as well. were abraxas LITERALLY more powerful than the embodiment of the entire multiverse i doubt he would have walked around just letting things 'warp' or merge, or whatever the hell was happening. people are powerless against cancer. does that mean a single cancer cell>>>>>a human being? that's always been my view of abraxas. Wurd. He's a lot like Bubonicus in that sense.

Originally posted by Galan007
Wurd. He's a lot like Bubonicus in that sense.

Not really. Bubonicus, infected ONE Eternity. The rest of the multiverse was fine. Also Bubonicus' diseases were so powerful they affected : abstracts, cosmic forces, heralds, demons, and even machines. But for all his power he was only ever a threat to a single Eternity.

Abraxas had MULTI-Eternity in fear and begging for help and causing multiverse wide chaos.

Huge difference.

Originally posted by leonidas
but he wasn't beaten by galactus using the un.

abraxas had it in his hands and g was able to casually take it from him while calling him 'nothing'. a regular old human, with no special connection to the un, ended abraxas. since the un is part of g (allegedly) g>>>>multi-eternity as well. were abraxas LITERALLY more powerful than the embodiment of the entire multiverse i doubt he would have walked around just letting things 'warp' or merge, or whatever the hell was happening. people are powerless against cancer. does that mean a single cancer cell>>>>>a human being? that's always been my view of abraxas.

A 'regular old human'? Reed? Are you serious? That "regular old human" beat the LT and a bunch of other cosmics by redirecting their own power at them. That "regular old human" is basically OMNISCIENT since he used the UN to wipe out the damage Abraxas did to the multiverse. I call Reed "omniscient" because if you are aware of how the UN works, it would take nothing less than that to use it the way Reed did.

Regarding cancer vs a human being. You know how that ends right? And for all our medicinal knowledge and tech we can't do jack sh|t against it. Bad analogy.

Originally posted by Galan007
Wurd. He's a lot like Bubonicus in that sense. No, it isn't like that at all.

Originally posted by zopzop
Not really. Bubonicus, infected ONE Eternity. The rest of the multiverse was fine. Also Bubonicus' diseases were so powerful they affected : abstracts, cosmic forces, heralds, demons, and even machines. But for all his power he was only ever a threat to a single Eternity.

Abraxas had MULTI-Eternity in fear and begging for help and causing multiverse wide chaos.

Huge difference. Good lord you're on quite an Abraxas kick today. srsly

I didn't say he and Bubonicus were the exact same, I said they were 'a lot alike'. ie. Bubonicus was able to infect universes with his cancer-like power, and Abraxas was able to do much the same type of thing. Not the same thing, just similar.

That is all.

Originally posted by Galan007
Good lord you're on quite an Abraxas kick today. srsly

I didn't say he and Bubonicus were the exact same, I said they were 'a lot alike'. ie. Bubonicus was able to infect universes with his cancer-like power, and Abraxas was able to do much the same type of thing. THAT is the similarity they have with one another.

Infecting something with a terminal disease and warping reality by your mere presence couldn't be more different.

EDIT -

One sec give me a chance to find relevant scans. They are in my older posts regarding Abraxas and Phoenix IX.

Originally posted by zopzop
Infecting something with a terminal disease and warping reality by your mere presence couldn't be more different.

EDIT -

One sec give me a chance to find relevant scans. They are in my older posts regarding Abraxas and Phoenix IX. Galan is dead wrong. Not alike in any regard.

Originally posted by zopzop
Infecting something with a terminal disease and warping reality by your mere presence couldn't be more different. facepalm

They both infect realities in a manner of speaking, fella. That's all I was getting at. It wasn't a jab at Abraxas, so you don't need to get so defensive.


Save the scans. I've seen them. Multiple times.

Originally posted by zopzop
A 'regular old human'? Reed? Are you serious? That "regular old human" beat the LT and a bunch of other cosmics by redirecting their own power at them. That "regular old human" is basically OMNISCIENT since he used the UN to wipe out the damage Abraxas did to the multiverse. I call Reed "omniscient" because if you are aware of how the UN works, it would take nothing less than that to use it the way Reed did.

Regarding cancer vs a human being. You know how that ends right? And for all our medicinal knowledge and tech we can't do jack sh|t against it. Bad analogy.

huh? it doesn't always end badly..... and the analogy fits well enough to make my point that you don't necessarily need to be more powerful than something to be able to 'kill' it.

in the grand scheme of things reed is exactly a regular old human. and now you're calling reed omniscient? yeah.... i'll pass on believing that.

and quan--stay in your lane with the other c-list debaters. with only one sentence uttered on this page you've already displayed your ignorance of the proceedings brilliantly! understand what's being discussed before offering your meaningless opinion on something. that should preclude you being involved in any debate. ever. oh, and i don't use caps because i know it bothers you as evinced by the fact that you seem unable to wait to bring it up. you're like a little puppy wagging it's tongue bouncing around my ankles--'no caps!' pant-pant 'no caps! pant-pant 'no caps!' but i don't expect more from you. i know it's the extent of your debating ability.

Originally posted by Galan007
facepalm

They both infect realities in a manner of speaking, fella. That's all I was getting at. It wasn't a jab at Abraxas, so you don't need to get so defensive.


Save the scans. I've seen them. Multiple times.

amen.

Originally posted by leonidas
huh? it doesn't always end badly..... and the analogy fits well enough to make my point that you don't necessarily need to be more powerful than something to be able to 'kill' it.

in the grand scheme of things reed is exactly a regular old human. and now you're calling reed omniscient? yeah.... i'll pass on believing that.

and quan--stay in your lane with the other c-list debaters. with only one sentence uttered on this page you've already displayed your ignorance of the proceedings brilliantly! understand what's being discussed before offering your meaningless opinion on something. that should preclude you being involved in any debate. ever. oh, and i don't use caps because i know it bothers you as evinced by the fact that you seem unable to wait to bring it up. you're like a little puppy wagging it's tongue bouncing around my ankles--'no caps!' pant-pant 'no caps! pant-pant 'no caps!' but i don't expect more from you. i know it's the extent of your debating ability. The comparison made by Galan with regards to drawing parallels between Bubonicus and Abraxas is both inaccurate, misleading, and a poor attempt at downplaying Abraxas with a character from an alternate reality as opposed to a character who was traversing the multiverse and by his mere existence was causing problems for reality in general.

He wasn't a cancer like Bubonicus was and I resent your personal remarks. I tease you for two reasons. First off it is in nature to do so. Secondly, it's a laziness I kind of detest in posters who take shortcuts by using u instead of you. It shows your character and my debating is leaps and bounds above yours. It always has been and always will be. I hope and pray you improve so you can see things from my level. One can dream.

Originally posted by Galan007
facepalm

They both infect realities in a manner of speaking, fella. That's all I was getting at. It wasn't a jab at Abraxas, so you don't need to get so defensive.


Save the scans. I've seen them. Multiple times.

I understand, but Quan and I were saying it's not as simple as that.

Back on the Abraxas vs Dream topic :

This is who Abraxas punked :

Who is 'regular' Eternity? According to the LT - The unchallenged lord of all there is -
http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/3741/et1kb7.th.jpg

Who is "multi-"Eternity? The embodiment of the boundless multiverse. And according to Dormammu "Worlds within worlds. Dimensions folding into themselves. Entire universes being born and collapsing into ruin. And yet I sense all this is but the merest fraction of what Eternity is" -
http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/4986/530048multieternity16do.th.jpg http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/4813/12219597.th.jpg

That was the guy that was powerless before Abraxas. Dream is so far out of his league here it's not even funny.

Originally posted by leonidas
huh? it doesn't always end badly..... and the analogy fits well enough to make my point that you don't necessarily need to be more powerful than something to be able to 'kill' it.

in the grand scheme of things reed is exactly a regular old human. and now you're calling reed omniscient? yeah.... i'll pass on believing that.



The odds of "beating" cancer are in it's favor even with all the tech and science we have. So yes, the analogy was bad.

In the grand scheme of things, he's (Reed's) so far beyond even abstracts it's not even funny. How many 'regular old humans' have beaten the LT and a good portion of the cosmic hierarchy using nothing but his own tech and without outside help? How many 'regular old humans' have such a complete knowledge of the multiverse and how it functions that they can fire off the UN and achieve the desired results. Because you MUST be aware that one of the key things about the Nullifier and the way it works is, you must have a complete understanding of your target for the UN to achieve what you desire. That's why I called Reed "omniscient".

Originally posted by quanchi112
The comparison made by Galan with regards to drawing parallels between Bubonicus and Abraxas is both inaccurate, misleading, and a poor attempt at downplaying Abraxas with a character from an alternate reality as opposed to a character who was traversing the multiverse and by his mere existence was causing problems for reality in general.

He wasn't a cancer like Bubonicus was and I resent your personal remarks. I tease you for two reasons. First off it is in nature to do so. Secondly, it's a laziness I kind of detest in posters who take shortcuts by using u instead of you. It shows your character and my debating is leaps and bounds above yours. It always has been and always will be. I hope and pray you improve so you can see things from my level. One can dream.

"it is in nature to do so?" is that even english? i may not use caps but at least i can string together a coherent sentence. you know why i tease you? cuz you're an idiot.

and the chronic quan overcompensation tactic, used ad nauseum when your limited intellect fails. how unimaginative and pathetically predictable. i wonder if we did a poll who the forum would think is the better debater......? but it wouldn't matter anyway, since it wouldn't change the way you see things in that intelligence black hole you call a brain. stick to debates that don't involve adults. you're dismissed.

Originally posted by zopzop
In the grand scheme of things, he's (Reed's) so far beyond even abstracts it's not even funny.

stopped reading, sorry zop. you're calling reed beyond abstract. there really isn't anything more to discuss i'm afraid.

Originally posted by leonidas
"it is in nature to do so?" is that even english? i may not use caps but at least i can string together a coherent sentence. you know why i tease you? cuz you're an idiot.

and the chronic quan overcompensation tactic, used ad nauseum when your limited intellect fails. how unimaginative and pathetically predictable. i wonder if we did a poll who the forum would think is the better debater......? but it wouldn't matter anyway, since it wouldn't change the way you see things in that intelligence black hole you call a brain. stick to debates that don't involve adults. you're dismissed. Yes, in my nature means it's well within my behavior to fire away on someone who is too lazy to hit a simple button. It's in your nature to hit the report to moderator button. I realize english isn't everyone's first language so I will let this slide.

I actually enjoy the give and take of an intellectual debate while you seem to enjoy insulting someone and letting a debate fall into the realm of flaming. I get it that you are threatened but mask it better you make it so obvious.


The analogy given was garbage and had nothing in common to Bubonicus. You championed it because you piggyback on other debaters and have for years. Come up with your own thoughts every once in a while. Ok.

Abraxas wins.

Originally posted by leonidas
stopped reading, sorry zop. you're calling reed beyond abstract. there really isn't anything more to discuss i'm afraid.

It's ok. Since you stopped reading, how about looking at a picture?
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/10/101268/1916551-img013.jpg

Reed, using nothing but his own intellect and tech, REFLECTED ALL that power back on the abstracts. See whose in that pic? The LT, the IB, Order, Chaos, Shaper of Worlds, the Gardener, and the Collector.

Originally posted by leonidas
you know why i tease you? cuz you're an idiot.

Dream of Endless ( Gaiman version ) is a anthropomofic personifications entity. Marvel concept beings are like superheroes shooting lasers from their hands. Abraxas is a Galactus level being.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes, in my nature means it's well within my behavior to fire away on someone who is too lazy to hit a simple button. It's in your nature to hit the report to moderator button. I realize english isn't everyone's first language so I will let this slide.

I actually enjoy the give and take of an intellectual debate while you seem to enjoy insulting someone and letting a debate fall into the realm of flaming. I get it that you are threatened but mask it better you make it so obvious.


The analogy given was garbage and had nothing in common to Bubonicus. You championed it because you piggyback on other debaters and have for years. Come up with your own thoughts every once in a while. Ok.

Abraxas wins.

ohhhh, in MY nature..... see, when you don't give up you CAN put a coherent sentence together! well done champ, i knew you had it in you.

and no, i enjoy insulting YOU. guess that's in MY nature. and.....everyone else on the forums'.

and once again, as per the norm, your ignorance is on grandiose display--i'm the one who made the disease analogy so i guess i....piggy-backed myself? and if you read carefully, i didn't say anything at all about galan's analogy, though it was apt enough, as was my original analogy, for what i was discussing with zop.

now run along and find some thanos thread to troll.

Originally posted by zopzop
It's ok. Since you stopped reading, how about looking at a picture?
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/10/101268/1916551-img013.jpg

Reed, using nothing but his own intellect and tech, REFLECTED ALL that power back on the abstracts. See whose in that pic? The LT, the IB, Order, Chaos, Shaper of Worlds, the Gardener, and the Collector.

so.....that makes reed beyond abstract. c'mon zop...... the reed thing was bad enough, but the true deathknell of your position was sounded as soon as quanch made it known he supported you.

Originally posted by leonidas
so.....that makes reed beyond abstract. c'mon zop...... the reed thing was bad enough, but the true deathknell of your position was sounded as soon as quanch made it known he supported you.

Who else aside from Thanos with the Hotu and the Protege have owned the LT? I'll wait for your answer.

the fact that you are saying reed pwn'd lt is only driving this further into the realm of nonsense. i suppose you think doom>>>>>classic beyonder as well? that would make doom what? beyond BEYOND abstract? so everytime a human does something pis/retarded with prep or a weapon they are beyond someone? IM is beyond surfer? you generally make more sense than this zop.

Dream of The Endless I would say. Abraxas killing other Galactus's which caused the their universes to begin merging with 616 (warping the multiverse). Another thing the dead Galactus head with a hole in space and time caused Uatu to become comatose! Abraxas does not just get closer to universes and they collapse, thats not how it happens... If thats true then how was the Earth still able to not be destroyed with Abraxas on it?? lol. He is the cause of all this multiversal destruction true. Anyone can see Abraxas flinch when he thought Galactus was attacking him, all Big G was doing was taking the UN away from him! Not saying Abraxas isn't powerful, he mainly gets respect from what people think he is and they say he's done.. Stuff we haven't seen on panel.

Personally i think Abraxas is overrated.

Eternity not acting doesnt reflect a lack of power in comparison to Abraxas, for those who did act were beneath Eternity in power.

It would be a bit of a shitty story if the top dogs just stepped in and resolved the issue from the offset. Its similar to how Eternity didnt act against the Chaos King during Chaos War (despite the threat to his being) and left it up to the heroes to save him.

Furthermore by feat Abraxas did nothing impressive. His top feats were taking out some alternate reality Galactus' off panel and therefore by unknown means and within unknown circumstances. The editorial in one of the comics in that story arc even ranked his power at Galactus level. I can get hold of the scan if my word alone isnt trusted lol. He also wasnt warping reality on a universal scale, he was like a cancer to dimensional barriers. As he approached a barrier his presence would erode the dimensional wall which saw denizens from alternate realities passing through into other realities in localized areas, so he wasnt warping reality in a Scarlet Witch sense and the affect wasnt universal. It was sporadic and localized. Abraxas merely eroded any dimensional barrier he approached.

Originally posted by leonidas
"it is in nature to do so?" is that even english? i may not use caps but at least i can string together a coherent sentence. you know why i tease you? cuz you're an idiot.

and the chronic quan overcompensation tactic, used ad nauseum when your limited intellect fails. how unimaginative and pathetically predictable. i wonder if we did a poll who the forum would think is the better debater......? but it wouldn't matter anyway, since it wouldn't change the way you see things in that intelligence black hole you call a brain. stick to debates that don't involve adults. you're dismissed.

OUCH! This sounds like something i'd write. I love it!

^

you know you're my inspiration!

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Personally i think Abraxas is overrated.

Eternity not acting doesnt reflect a lack of power in comparison to Abraxas, for those who did act were beneath Eternity in power.

It would be a bit of a shitty story if the top dogs just stepped in and resolved the issue from the offset. Its similar to how Eternity didnt act against the Chaos King during Chaos War (despite the threat to his being) and left it up to the heroes to save him.

Furthermore by feat Abraxas did nothing impressive. His top feats were taking out some alternate reality Galactus' off panel and therefore by unknown means and within unknown circumstances. The editorial in one of the comics in that story arc even ranked his power at Galactus level. I can get hold of the scan if my word alone isnt trusted lol. He also wasnt warping reality on a universal scale, he was like a cancer to dimensional barriers. As he approached a barrier his presence would erode the dimensional wall which saw denizens from alternate realities passing through into other realities in localized areas, so he wasnt warping reality in a Scarlet Witch sense and the affect wasnt universal. It was sporadic and localized. Abraxas merely eroded any dimensional barrier he approached.

Originally posted by leonidas
ohhhh, in MY nature..... see, when you don't give up you CAN put a coherent sentence together! well done champ, i knew you had it in you.

and no, i enjoy insulting YOU. guess that's in MY nature. and.....everyone else on the forums'.

and once again, as per the norm, your ignorance is on grandiose display--i'm the one who made the disease analogy so i guess i....piggy-backed myself? and if you read carefully, i didn't say anything at all about galan's analogy, though it was apt enough, as was my original analogy, for what i was discussing with zop.

now run along and find some thanos thread to troll. I wish I could say the same about you and that mysterious caps lock button that seems to be missing from your keyboard.

I love it when someone postures like you're clearly doing here.

What have I stated which is ignorant ? Cite specific examples and make some sense out of all of these personal attacks. That means I am deep inside your head. Stick to the topic, leon.

I post in various thread next time actually try to argue the thread topic don't let your feelings bleed into the thread like they did here. You claim to be better than that but I know better.

dream is simply on another lvl

dark man loses here

I remember Franklin Richards seeing Abraxas in a dream.So maybe he does have power overs dreams at least.Although as Leonidas pointed out, why didn't Abraxas just kill Johnny?This doesn't discredit Abraxas's power.It just shows that Abraxas may lack intelligence in coming up strategy and tactics.Why did UN's from other universe wasn't used to kill Abraxas?Well the Abraxas saga showed that the 616 Universe is the prime reality.Galactus of 616 was according to Franklin "The first Galactus!"This would make Galactus of 616 as Abraxas's jailer.It might also say that 616 is the most important reality in the Marvel Universe.I think Abraxas also lacks cosmic awareness.If he has CA he wouldn't have needed Nova to be an under cover agent for locating the UN.

Abraxas wins!Unless Dream has his own version of an Ultimate Nullifier.

Originally posted by leonidas
the fact that you are saying reed pwn'd lt is only driving this further into the realm of nonsense. i suppose you think doom>>>>>classic beyonder as well? that would make doom what? beyond BEYOND abstract? so everytime a human does something pis/retarded with prep or a weapon they are beyond someone? IM is beyond surfer? you generally make more sense than this zop.

But it was explained how Doom "beat" the Beyonder. The retcon was that the power was drawn to the person that wanted it more (Spider-man & the Secret War).

Reed pwning all those abstracts was done using nothing but his tech. Reed using the UN on that level (multiversal) is proof he has a COMPLETE understanding of the multiverse, otherwise he would have failed. That kind of understanding requires omniscience. He's far from a "normal" person.

My head hurts now lol.....

So when Reed pulls something out of the bag, he has a complete understanding of the multiverse...

But if, say, Batman does it to someone like Darkseid, its either PIS or its showing up Darkseid for the chump he truly is? I mean, he has with prep defeated Darkseid 3 times that I can remember - Final Crisis, Rock of Ages and in Superman/Batman. Does that make him more devious/clever than the Ultimate Evil?

I'm not equating Darkseid to the Beyonder or anything like those people in the scan zopzop posted - I am just wondering how do people see things when normal human heroes take on abstract entities and evil alien gods.

Abraxas.
Saying that, Galactus with the un (which is supposed to be a part of him) would beat Dream too, I imagine.

Morpheus.

Originally posted by zopzop
But it was explained how Doom "beat" the Beyonder. The retcon was that the power was drawn to the person that wanted it more (Spider-man & the Secret War).

Reed pwning all those abstracts was done using nothing but his tech. Reed using the UN on that level (multiversal) is proof he has a COMPLETE understanding of the multiverse, otherwise he would have failed. That kind of understanding requires omniscience. He's far from a "normal" person.

ok, so doom is beyond whom....odin? galactus? having an 'understanding' of something in NO WAY AT ALL equates to being omniscient. wtf? he saw the multi entity and was TOLD how the multiverse was set up. how that means he is "omniscient" (seriously???) i have no idea. the whole argument is one of the worst i've ever heard postulated. good luck convincing even a single person anywhere that reed is now among the omniscients of the multiverse.

as for the thread--abraxas could win i suppose, but i saw no proof anywhere that his powers function in that way, and based upon the ill-defined nature of his powers that's about as fas as i'm willing to go.

and quan-- your initial comment attributed something to galan that i brought up, and you claimed i supported his stance when i never addressed his stance at all. well done and fine comprehension as usual. i know these big people discussions are hard for you to follow and probably give you terrible headaches but you need to really try and do better. and more overcompensation? sigh..... 'everyone knows i'm no smarter than a salamander so i'll tell everyone i am great!'

and i'm posturing. yep. the forum knows you're the bottom of the food chain but you've served your purpose and made me laugh. well done.

Originally posted by leonidas


and quan-- your initial comment attributed something to galan that i brought up, and you claimed i supported his stance when i never addressed his stance at all. well done and fine comprehension as usual. i know these big people discussions are hard for you to follow and probably give you terrible headaches but you need to really try and do better. and more overcompensation? sigh..... 'everyone knows i'm no smarter than a salamander so i'll tell everyone i am great!'

and i'm posturing. yep. the forum knows you're the bottom of the food chain but you've served your purpose and made me laugh. well done. I'm pretty sure you said pretty much agreeing with his entire post. I guess you are a bit of flip flopper. This doesn't come as a surprise at all to me. Don't call yourself a big person when you haven't used a cap since the 80's.

The personal attacks don't deter me. Just separate yourself from the emotions you are experiencing and come back ready for a debate. You aren't a funny person either and I expected to laugh by now but this seems very juvenile to me.

Abraxas.

Originally posted by kevdude

Abraxas killing other Galactus's which caused the their universes to
begin merging with 616 (warping the multiverse).

Another thing the dead Galactus head with a hole in space and time
caused Uatu to become comatose!

Abraxas does not just get closer to universes and they collapse, thats
not how it happens...
There's too much bullshit in this thread to point it all out.

But this is blatant, deliberate 100% bull shit

Literally, I'm calling you a liar on this one,
cause I schooled you on this fallacy you pulled in another thread,
and now you're here posting the same bullshit

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=560438&pagenumber=2

Nice try.
Originally posted by kevdude

If thats true then how was the Earth still able to not be destroyed with Abraxas on it?? lol.

Uhm, 616 was falling apart as Abraxas strode by.

Originally posted by Mr Master
There's too much bullshit in this thread to point it all out.

But this is blatant, deliberate 100% bull shit

Literally, I'm calling you a liar on this one,
cause I schooled you on this fallacy you pull in another thread,
and now you're here posting the same bullshit

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=560438&pagenumber=2

Nice try.

Uhm, 616 was falling apart as Abraxas strode by.

Originally posted by Igniz

I remember Franklin Richards seeing Abraxas in a dream.

So maybe he does have power overs dreams at least.
... Abraxas entered Franklin's dream state, and toyed with him in it.
Originally posted by Igniz

Although as Leonidas pointed out, why didn't Abraxas just kill Johnny?
This doesn't discredit Abraxas's power.
It just shows that Abraxas may lack intelligence in coming up strategy and tactics.
Or the story has to end at some point and when dealing with a power on this scale,
nothing other than pis/cis will do the trick.

Abraxas kills Johnny, the UN is never found the story never ends,
or it does end with Abraxas as the lone God of the Omniverse.

Which isn't gonna happen cause a Marvel Universe has to continue,
as is, across a wide variety of characters with their own books.

This is why Abraxas did not kill Johnny,
just like how both Abraxas & Reed were able to job a bit
before Reed clicked the button.
Originally posted by Igniz

Why did UN's from other universe wasn't used to kill Abraxas?
Well the Abraxas saga showed that the 616 Universe is the prime
reality.Galactus of 616 was according to Franklin "The first
Galactus!"This would make Galactus of 616 as Abraxas's jailer.It
might also say that 616 is the most important reality in the Marvel
Universe.I think Abraxas also lacks cosmic awareness.If he has CA
he wouldn't have needed Nova to be an under cover agent for
locating the UN.

Abraxas wins! Unless Dream has his own version of an Ultimate Nullifier.

Originally posted by leonidas
ok, so doom is beyond whom....odin? galactus? having an 'understanding' of something in NO WAY AT ALL equates to being omniscient. wtf? he saw the multi entity and was TOLD how the multiverse was set up. how that means he is "omniscient" (seriously???) i have no idea. the whole argument is one of the worst i've ever heard postulated. good luck convincing even a single person anywhere that reed is now among the omniscients of the multiverse.

But he'd have to be omniscient to use the Nullifier in the way that he did. The whole point of the Nullifier is to have complete understanding of your intended victim/target for it to function as you want it too. For Reed to undo the multiversal damage Abraxas did requires omniscience.

Then there's the fact that Reed owned the LT and a bunch of other cosmics.

Then there's the fact that the Rogue Celestials were rampaging in "Reed Space" and were killing off IG (they ONE SHOTTED TWO Infinity Gauntlet Reeds) users and crushing Starbrand Reeds. Then Reed Richards pulls out a GUN FROM HIS CLOSET and offs one of the Rogue Celestials and they flee!

To recap : repairing multiversal wide damage with the UN (that requires complete understanding of the intended target), owning the second in command of creation (the LT) and his friends, owning the Rogue Celestials that were OFFING IG USERS. Reed >>>>>all!

Sans TOAA, LT is the only 'truly' omniscient being in Marvel continuity. I can't help but chuckle at the notion that Reed's intellect is on par with his.

Originally posted by Galan007
Sans TOAA, LT is the only 'truly' omniscient being in Marvel continuity. I can't help but chuckle at the notion that Reed's intellect is on par with his.

Using nothing but his own intellect he OWNED the LT and a bunch of other Cosmics. I guess TOAA is really just another name for Reed Richards.

About multi-eternity or whatever scared of abraxas, wasn't tiamut shuddering by just sensing the ascension of seth? So seth>>>tiamut.

Originally posted by abhilegend
About multi-eternity or whatever scared of abraxas, wasn't tiamut shuddering by just sensing the ascension of seth? So seth>>>tiamut.

At least Tiamut had the excuse of being DEPOWERED and IMPRISONED at the time. Multi-Eternity was neither.

On one end Galan is asking for a specific showing and on the other hand he is ignoring Reed's showing. What a hypocrite.

Originally posted by Mr Master
There's too much bullshit in this thread to point it all out.

But this is blatant, deliberate 100% bull shit

Literally, I'm calling you a liar on this one,
cause I schooled you on this fallacy you pulled in another thread,
and now you're here posting the same bullshit

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=560438&pagenumber=2

Nice try.

Uhm, 616 was falling apart as Abraxas strode by.

The ego you have is amazing MM!! You didn't school me at anything but go ahead and think that way! You are a liar as well! See thats easy to demean others.. I thought you was above this stuff....

That answer is the WRITER. It has the ability to retcon any entity in the Ominverse. It even made Beyonder who was once the ball park of the Multiverse now been written into a cosmic cube. Originally posted by zopzop
Who else aside from Thanos with the Hotu and the Protege have owned the LT? I'll wait for your answer.

Originally posted by lilshogun
That answer is the WRITER. It has the ability to retcon any entity in the Ominverse. It even made Beyonder who was once the ball park of the Multiverse now been written into a cosmic cube.

That's nice, but that's not what I was asking.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Dream.

Originally posted by kevdude

The ego you have is amazing MM!!
stoned
Originally posted by kevdude

You didn't school me at anything but go ahead and think that way!
Actually, I updated you in this thread: (on the page the link opens up to)

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=560438&pagenumber=2

Concerning the fallacy you was pushing about the "Galactus Head"
being the culprit of Uatu's memory loss and/or comatose state,
and the Space-Time imbalance that was phucking up the Multiverse.

That was all Abraxas' doing, yet you tried to take that away from him,
by giving the credit to the "Galactus Head" which is just ridiculous
and not even in the most remote way even plausible.

Originally posted by kevdude

You are a liar as well!
See thats easy to demean others..
I thought you was above this stuff....
Heh, you call me that but what proof do you got for that accusation?

I wasn't demeaning you, I was pointing out a fact.
You know damn well that "Galactus Head" had absolutely nothing to
do with anything other than being a homing beacon for Abraxas to
find 616 in the endless sea of Universes that make up the Omniverse.

Yet, I find you posting the same fallacy after I cleared that up for you.

What else is that? Unless you forgot in that case, my bad.

Originally posted by zopzop

But he'd have to be omniscient to use the Nullifier in the way that
he did. The whole point of the Nullifier is to have complete
understanding of your intended victim/target for it to function as you
want it too. For Reed to undo the multiversal damage Abraxas did
requires omniscience.


I always thought mr plot device could do anything.

He's turned Galactus into a human, he was directing the war plans
which succeeded in reverting Galactus to his natural state (conscious death)

He's become an Eternity.

Tech (his version of the UN) that can destroy the Omniverse.

He and his close friends met and conversed
with one of the true "Gods" of Marvel that make up TOAA.

I think though,
what really depicted Reed's understanding/intellect/knowledge which seemed cosmic in nature,
was when the Alien Entity needed to use his mind as a guide to re-
create the entire Marvel Universe and all its history.

Originally posted by Mr Master

I think though,
what really depicted Reed's understanding/intellect/knowledge which seemed cosmic in nature,
was when the ALien Entity needed to use his mind a guide to re-
create the entire Marvel Universe and all its history.

OMG. LOL so it seems LordofMurder and I were right, Reed Richards is the Avatar of TOAA!

Back on topic, Mr. M, I find it laughable that some posters on this thread believe ONE aspect out of the multitudes that make up the universe (Dream) would fare better against Abraxas than the EMBODIMENT of the freaking Multiverse and EVERYTHING in it (Mult-Eternity). Multi-Eternity was powerless against Abraxas yet Dream would beat him?

Originally posted by zopzop
But he'd have to be omniscient to use the Nullifier in the way that he did. The whole point of the Nullifier is to have complete understanding of your intended victim/target for it to function as you want it too. For Reed to undo the multiversal damage Abraxas did requires omniscience.

Then there's the fact that Reed owned the LT and a bunch of other cosmics.

Then there's the fact that the Rogue Celestials were rampaging in "Reed Space" and were killing off IG (they ONE SHOTTED TWO Infinity Gauntlet Reeds) users and crushing Starbrand Reeds. Then Reed Richards pulls out a GUN FROM HIS CLOSET and offs one of the Rogue Celestials and they flee!

To recap : repairing multiversal wide damage with the UN (that requires complete understanding of the intended target), owning the second in command of creation (the LT) and his friends, owning the Rogue Celestials that were OFFING IG USERS. Reed >>>>>all!


ok, let's take this in pieces. first off, where does it say somewhere that you need a complete and total understanding of your target in order to use the un the way you intend?

and quanch m'man, i'm sure your post above had something to do with me but.....i didn't bother reading it. i had some fun at your expense but as happens with toys they get boring and predictable and outgrown. continue to troll if you must, continue to add....less than nothing to any thread you haunt. it's in your nature. heh and nice shot at galan btw. way to man up and address him via someone else's post. you really are as great as you claim.

Originally posted by zopzop

Back on topic, Mr. M, I find it laughable that some posters on this
thread believe ONE aspect out of the multitudes that make up the
universe (Dream) would fare better against Abraxas than the
EMBODIMENT of the freaking Multiverse and EVERYTHING in it (Mult-
Eternity).

Multi-Eternity was powerless against Abraxas yet Dream would beat him?
Or comparing Bubonicus to Abraxas, that was really funny.

Anyway, Abraxas was able to manipulate mighty Franklin's dreams effortlessly.

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/10274762_A3.jpg http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/10274763_A4.jpg

Mind you, Abraxas is NOT at all in 616 at this point,
so he's performing this feat from UniverseS away.

We know this is really him cause he has half of Uatu's emblem,
which he also took from Uatu while also wiping his memory
and then comatose his ass.

Again, he was not in 616 at this point.

So basically he performed this incredible feat from outside 616,
which means his ability to affect targets across Universes wasn't
isolated to humans like Reed, but even a cosmic like Uatu the Watcher.

Although I still think it's very impressive he was able to
simultaneously kill off all of Reed's alternates across the Omniverse
while enjoying 616 Reed himself die slowly.

That aside, all the other Concepts are beneath Abraxas.

Originally posted by leonidas
ok, let's take this in pieces. first off, where does it say somewhere that you need a complete and total understanding of your target in order to use the un the way you intend?


I believe it was in an issue of Quasar (where Thanos gives him the Nullifier to get rid of Magus and Quasar goes off to that library planet Rus to research the UN). And again in an issue of the Fantastic Four. I'll have to find the scans.

^^ .. and other situations to strengthen that truth.

Originally posted by leonidas

where does it say somewhere that you need a complete and total
understanding of your target in order to use the un the way you
intend?
Wut up Leo, ....

... the kid is right on this one.

Originally posted by zopzop
I believe it was in an issue of Quasar (where Thanos gives him the Nullifier to get rid of Magus and Quasar goes off to that library planet Rus to research the UN). And again in an issue of the Fantastic Four. I'll have to find the scans.

i await eagerly.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Wut up Leo, ....

... the kid is right on this one.

yo,

he says he has the proof so i wait patiently......

(though i know what he's planning on showing..... )

Originally posted by leonidas
yo,

he says he has the proof so i wait patiently......

(though i know what he's planning on showing..... )

Quasar's (limited) understanding of how it works :
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/580/quasar.jpg/

Korvac's (alt reality) true understanding of how it works :
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/857/korvacnullify.jpg/

The above incident confirmed in Korvac's handbook entry :
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/12/confirmedf.jpg/

I'm trying to remember the FF issue where it confirmed that this is how it works (total understanding of the subject you wish to Nullify).

PS I'd use thumbnails but Imageshack is acting up.

Originally posted by zopzop
Quasar's (limited) understanding of how it works :
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/580/quasar.jpg/

Korvac's (alt reality) true understanding of how it works :
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/857/korvacnullify.jpg/

The above incident confirmed in Korvac's handbook entry :
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/12/confirmedf.jpg/

I'm trying to remember the FF issue where it confirmed that this is how it works (total understanding of the subject you wish to Nullify).

PS I'd use thumbnails but Imageshack is acting up.

a what if?

after some have been discussing the unique (allegedly) nature of the "616" version of the un, you try and use a what if for some proof?

i'll keep waiting.

Originally posted by leonidas
a what if?

after some have been discussing the unique (allegedly) nature of the "616" version of the un, you try and use a what if for some proof?

i'll keep waiting.

The incident was confirmed in his handbook entry. He used his cosmic awareness to completely understand the universe and how it works, once he had that total understanding he fired off the UN and destroyed the universe.

And supposedly the 616 version is more powerful than that. Reed used it to undo MULTIVERSAL wide damage caused by Abraxas. Korvac needed cosmic awareness to achieve his goals for a single universe, Reed did it on a multiversal scale.

In fact what Reed did required more skill and understanding than what Korvac did. Korvac just wanted to destroy his entire universe (and used his cosmic awareness to study it down to the most minute detail), Reed wanted to repair the freaking multiverse and used nothing but his own 'regular old human' mind to get it done.

so wait, your saying is that you actually think reed somehow did exactly what korvac did--he envisioned the entire multiverse, every aspect of it without any cosmic awareness or anything--and that he was required to do so because korvac focused on the universe in a what if? all quasar says is the target needs to be focused on without extraneous thought (and quasar returned from being nullified you kow, right...?). and yet you somehow want me to believe that reed is TRULY OMNISCIENT?

your claim is soooooooooooooooooooooo ludicrous i don't know where to begin with it zop. he's omniscient but he can't what--cure ben? cure johnny when he was unable to control his flame???

i am truly astounded that you want to continue this. had someone else used a what if (which is AGAINST forum rules for a reason) you'd be all over them for it. a what if to support that reed is omnisicent. THAT is what you're telling me? you seriously gotta be kidding.

Once Abraxas dreams, Morpheus will just dream him away. Like the endless, he is a multiverse level being or concept. He is one of the building blocks of creation. Morpheous can even chit chat with non living things like planets, stars, galaxies, etc etc. Plus Dream will just manifest itself again.

Originally posted by zopzop
Abraxas destroys him. He had the ultimate concept, Multi-Eternity, in fear and begging for assistance. Multi-Eternity embodies the WHOLE Multiverse. Dream is out of his league here.

Originally posted by lilshogun

Once Abraxas dreams, Morpheus will just dream him away.
I didn't know Abraxas slept let alone dreamt, but ok.
Originally posted by lilshogun

Like the endless, he is a multiverse level being or concept.

He is one of the building blocks of creation.
Abraxas is the anti-thesis to the power of the Multiversal Space-Time Continuum.

He is the storm that smashes through that building of blocks.
Originally posted by lilshogun

Morpheous can even chit chat with non living things like planets, stars, galaxies, etc etc.
Now that should help.
Originally posted by lilshogun

Plus Dream will just manifest itself again.
If there is no sentient being left to dream, then concept of Dream becomes non-existent.

Originally posted by leonidas
so wait, your saying is that you actually think reed somehow did exactly what korvac did--he envisioned the entire multiverse, every aspect of it without any cosmic awareness or anything--and that he was required to do so because korvac focused on the universe in a what if? all quasar says is the target needs to be focused on without extraneous thought (and quasar returned from being nullified you kow, right...?). and yet you somehow want me to believe that reed is TRULY OMNISCIENT?

your claim is soooooooooooooooooooooo ludicrous i don't know where to begin with it zop. he's omniscient but he can't what--cure ben? cure johnny when he was unable to control his flame???

i am truly astounded that you want to continue this. had someone else used a what if (which is AGAINST forum rules for a reason) you'd be all over them for it. a what if to support that reed is omnisicent. THAT is what you're telling me? you seriously gotta be kidding.

Quasar, as shown in that very arc, had a limited understanding of how the UN truly functions. Even Epoch needed more time to research it. And you realize that Quasar came back because of the residual power of the Starbrand that he had right?

The "What If" was confirmed in the characters handbook entry. How many times does that happen? Here is another relevant scan from that issue :
http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/1238/korvac2.th.jpg

Korvac in Captain America's mind : "Concentrate on your enemy, visualize every aspect of him. When your consciousness is filled with the concept of him and him alone press the Nullifier"

The fact remains, Reed managed to do, using nothing but his own "regular old human' intellect what it took Korvac and his cosmic awareness/omniscience to do.

as we know i don't 'debate' i admire the experts here my peers always shine

just pointing out as a 44 year old 'nerd' understand the concept of dream

powerful, don't count out because we don't realize his power

carry on friends

Originally posted by zopzop
Quasar, as shown in that very arc, had a limited understanding of how the UN truly functions. Even Epoch needed more time to research it. And you realize that Quasar came back because of the residual power of the Starbrand that he had right?

The "What If" was confirmed in the characters handbook entry. How many times does that happen? Here is another relevant scan from that issue :
http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/1238/korvac2.th.jpg

Korvac in Captain America's mind : "Concentrate on your enemy, visualize every aspect of him. When your consciousness is filled with the concept of him and him alone press the Nullifier"

The fact remains, Reed managed to do, using nothing but his own "regular old human' intellect what it took Korvac and his cosmic awareness/omniscience to do.

i can't really get over this. you're saying reed is TRULY omniscient. and moreover, you're using feats from a NON-616 reed and a WHAT IF to support your stance???

okay, so, other than your (illegal) what if "support", what proof do you have? because (the non-616 reed) temporarily displaced lt with weapon he created? oh, and if we're using that what if it's not much of a feat for alternate reed since his ultimate attack could only conjure a supernova..... if he were actually omniscient, wouldn't he have been able to come up with a way to KILL lt for good? oh, wait, is the non-616 omniscient too? i assumed since you used him to support OUR reed being omnniscient.... or couldn't ONE of them, you know, cure ben? or cure banner? or do....any of the million other things he doesn't know how to do!

i utterly DEFY you to open up any ff book aside from this un nonsense, and show me PROOF that reed is OMNISCIENT. do you know what that word even means? or are you claiming that in this one instance he miraculously BECAME omniscient? somehow. even though quasar says you really only need to FOCUS on the target (just SLIGHTLY different from requiring omniscience......) maybe that's it because he certainly/absolutely/positively/1000% is NOT omniscient all the time.

your stance makes absolutely ZERO sense and is without a doubt the most ludicrous claim i've ever heard made on the forum. so.... congrats.

So let me see here about what I said about the Galactus head, Abraxas kills another universe's Galactus, and sends his skull to Earth-616, he then uses the skull as a homing beacon. This causes a disturbance in the space-time continuum, allowing people from other universes to come through the gap left by the head, including another Nova. This also seems to be controlled by Abraxas who is able to control who is coming in and out of the hole left by the head. The Law Enforcement Squad is there one second and gone the next with Abraxas writing "I am coming", Franklin wakes up sensing Abraxas is nearer.

Then and before that Eternity (with the help of Captain Universe) shows the FF who and what Abraxas is. When the Fantastic Four seeks the counsel of the Watcher, they find that he has forgotten who he was, and then he becomes comatose. He seems to have gotten mixed up and confused because space and time are messed up and the more destruction and havok in the 616 universe he becomes comatose. Is it not Uatu's job to keep a record of everything happening?? If all this is messed up how can he possibly do this?

Originally posted by leonidas
i can't really get over this. you're saying reed is TRULY omniscient. and moreover, you're using feats from a NON-616 reed and a WHAT IF to support your stance???

okay, so, other than your (illegal) what if "support", what proof do you have? because (the non-616 reed) temporarily displaced lt with weapon he created? oh, and if we're using that what if it's not much of a feat for alternate reed since his ultimate attack could only conjure a supernova..... if he were actually omniscient, wouldn't he have been able to come up with a way to KILL lt for good? oh, wait, is the non-616 omniscient too? i assumed since you used him to support OUR reed being omnniscient.... or couldn't ONE of them, you know, cure ben? or cure banner? or do....any of the million other things he doesn't know how to do!

How is it illegal if it's confirmed in his official handbook entry? How many times has a "What if" been confirmed in a characters official bio? Korvac needed cosmic awareness to accomplish something Reed did using nothing but his own intellect.

Since there is only ONE LT throughout the multiverse his What if showings are valid. And I don't believe the displacement was temporary. The weapon was created to get rid of Galactus and the thread he posed to Earth. What would be the point of a temporary BFR?
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/213/reedgun.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/841/reedgun2.jpg/



Quasar had little to no understanding on the true function of the UN. That entire arc made it plain. Even his mentor, Epoch, needed more time to research the UN.

Reed has owned the LT, Reed has used the UN to repair multiversal wide damage, Reed pulled out a weapon that he made himself that caused Rogue Celestials to retreat (these guys were one shotting IG users and laughing off the power of the Starbrand).

Originally posted by zopzop

Since there is only ONE LT throughout the multiverse his What if showings are valid. And I don't believe the displacement was temporary. The weapon was created to get rid of Galactus and the thread he posed to Earth. What would be the point of a temporary BFR?
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/213/reedgun.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/841/reedgun2.jpg/ Zop, you do realize this feat occurred in the MC2 universe, right? It doesn't apply to 616 Reed in the slightest.

Originally posted by Galan007
Zop, you do realize this feat occurred in the MC2 universe, right? It doesn't apply to 616 Reed in the slightest.

i...... don't know what else to say. it seems mr m also supported zop's 'theory' that reed is omniscient.

the hell is happening around here??

zop, i have no clue how many what if occurences are listed in handbooks. could be dozens for all i know. but............... IT DOESN'T MATTER. handbook evidence is notoriously weak to begin with and WHAT IFs ARE ILLEGAL ON THE FORUM. are you kidding? so lt's biggest attack IS a supernova? dude, i like you. you even recently taught me something i hadn't known before. but step away from this omniscient thing. seriously. it's beyond ridiculous into the purely assinine.

using an alternate reed's feat with support from a what if to confirm that 616 reed is omniscient? that could CERTAINLY warrant a warning from a mod if one of them happened along to read this disasterously poor reasoning.

chock it up to booze or.....something WAY stronger and just leave it be. hell, even if you DID find proof that someone had to know 'everything' about a target to use the un properly--you'd STILL look ridiculous with your claim. it would be simply chalked up to PIS, or some effect of the un, but even if you found the proof you

I'd argue it very much depends on where the fight takes place...

In the Dreaming, Morpheus wins hands down.

In the outside, it's much more even.

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
I'd argue it very much depends on where the fight takes place...

In the Dreaming, Morpheus wins hands down.

In the outside, it's much more even.

i can see morpheus winning in dream as well. walking into frank's dream, when he isn't using any powers, really isn't much proof at all that abraxas could beat morpheus in the dream world.

Originally posted by leonidas
i can see morpheus winning in dream as well. walking into frank's dream, when he isn't using any powers, really isn't much proof at all that abraxas could beat morpheus in the dream world.

The dream world is The Dreaming, when sentient things dream that's where their conciousness exists.

The fact that Morpheus is essentially the entire realm is the reason why he's basically omnipotent there.

Originally posted by leonidas
ok, let's take this in pieces. first off, where does it say somewhere that you need a complete and total understanding of your target in order to use the un the way you intend?

and quanch m'man, i'm sure your post above had something to do with me but.....i didn't bother reading it. i had some fun at your expense but as happens with toys they get boring and predictable and outgrown. continue to troll if you must, continue to add....less than nothing to any thread you haunt. it's in your nature. heh and nice shot at galan btw. way to man up and address him via someone else's post. you really are as great as you claim. Concession accepted. We both knew it was coming down to this.

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
The dream world is The Dreaming, when sentient things dream that's where their conciousness exists.

The fact that Morpheus is essentially the entire realm is the reason why he's basically omnipotent there.

Pretty much.

Originally posted by Galan007
Zop, you do realize this feat occurred in the MC2 universe, right? It doesn't apply to 616 Reed in the slightest.

The feat is valid because there's only ONE LT throughout the multiverse. Reed Richards, even if it's the MC2 one, defeated the LT and a host of other cosmics. In all Marvel that's only occurred like twice : Thanos with the HotU and the Protege.

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
The dream world is The Dreaming, when sentient things dream that's where their conciousness exists.

The fact that Morpheus is essentially the entire realm is the reason why he's basically omnipotent there.

And what happens when you wipe out all sentient beings in the universe (along with the universe and everything in it)?

Originally posted by leonidas
i...... don't know what else to say. it seems mr m also supported zop's 'theory' that reed is omniscient.

the hell is happening around here??

zop, i have no clue how many what if occurences are listed in handbooks. could be dozens for all i know. but............... IT DOESN'T MATTER. handbook evidence is notoriously weak to begin with and WHAT IFs ARE ILLEGAL ON THE FORUM. are you kidding? so lt's biggest attack IS a supernova? dude, i like you. you even recently taught me something i hadn't known before. but step away from this omniscient thing. seriously. it's beyond ridiculous into the purely assinine.

using an alternate reed's feat with support from a what if to confirm that 616 reed is omniscient? that could CERTAINLY warrant a warning from a mod if one of them happened along to read this disasterously poor reasoning.

chock it up to booze or.....something WAY stronger and just leave it be. hell, even if you DID find proof that someone had to know 'everything' about a target to use the un properly--you'd STILL look ridiculous with your claim. it would be simply chalked up to PIS, or some effect of the un, but even if you found the proof you

No I was using the alt universe feats for Reed because it shows that Reed Richards, even an alt universe one, did what only occurred twice in all Marvel history. He beat the LT (along with other cosmics).

The omniscient thing comes into play in how he used the UN to undo multiversal wide damage. I even provided scans showing why he'd basically have to be omniscient to have pulled that feat off. The resetting of reality was done by 616 Reed.

Then there's the time he whipped out a gun from his closet and OWNED Rogue Celestials that were rampaging in the Council of Reeds pocket universe. These Rogue Celestials ONE SHOTTED TWO IG users and were no selling attacks from a Reed with the power of the Starbrand! This was 616 Reed too.

Mr. Master isn't agreeing with me in Reed LITERALLY being omniscient but he's laughing at the whole incident (of the resetting of the multivese by Reed using the UN) because there's no way a human being should have been able to do what he did in that issue.

For all the talk on how Reed used the UN so well, only means he has extensive knowledge on how Marvel's Multiverse works at least.

http://imageshack.us/f/137/22584438ke1.jpg/

Reed Richards of 616 even has a scanner that tells if a dead Galactus skull is from 616 or from an alternate reality.I remember Reed stating, " In order to realign all that is, we needed to end all that was" after he used the UN on Abraxas.That alone makes me think that he knows how Marvel's Multiverse works.That also mean he knows how to use the UN properly.

I still say Abraxas wins this.

I'm seeing some horrible logic in this thread. Really, really horrible. Its origins can be traced back to Mr Masters hyping of this Abraxas character and unfortunately too many people swallowed his sh*t without any analysis of the story arc themselves.

I think i may have to read the story arc again so im fully equipped to come back and resolve this predicament.

I'm coming y'all!

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I'm seeing some horrible logic in this thread. Really, really horrible. Its origins can be traced back to Mr Masters hyping of this Abraxas character and unfortunately too many people swallowed his sh*t without any analysis of the story arc themselves.

I think i may have to read the story arc again so im fully equipped to come back and resolve this predicament.

I'm coming y'all!

GS, Mr. M wasn't BSing. Even if, for some reason, you don't put much weight in the fact that the Embodiment of the Multiverse being powerless to stop Abraxas is a sign of Abraxas' power, you can't ignore what happened between him and Franklin Richards.

Franklin didn't dare attack Abraxas directly and was in fear of him. You have Rogue Celestials (that were one shotting IG users and brushing off attacks from a Starbrand wielder) in panic of Franklin calling him "beyond Omega level" and a "universal level Shaper". All that power and he feared the "Dark Man".

I can't see Abraxas losing this fight (vs Dream).

Originally posted by zopzop
Then there's the time he whipped out a gun from his closet and OWNED Rogue Celestials that were rampaging in the Council of Reeds pocket universe. These Rogue Celestials ONE SHOTTED TWO IG users and were no selling attacks from a Reed with the power of the Starbrand! This was 616 Reed too.

why would he need a gun when sue has already demolished EXITAR.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u43/Galan007/f43.jpg

and doom could do the same thing. with prep strange has held his own and beaten some big guys. who cares? reed's brain is a pis machine. everyone knows that.

NO ONE thinks he's omniscient. because he is manifestly NOT.



a human with an understanding of how things work DID do it. reed was SHOWN IN THAT ARC how the multiverse was set up. he used the knowledge and did what he did. sure it's impressive but it in no way at all means he was omniscient. at all.

i fall on gs and galan's side of the abraxas issue. i have never been overly impressed with him as i've always felt his feats were vague and ill-defined in that arc and for all the narration and bios he never really did anything in that arc.

Originally posted by zopzop
GS, Mr. M wasn't BSing. Even if, for some reason, you don't put much weight in the fact that the Embodiment of the Multiverse being powerless to stop Abraxas is a sign of Abraxas' power, you can't ignore what happened between him and Franklin Richards.


Franklin didn't dare attack Abraxas directly and was in fear of him. You have Rogue Celestials (that were one shotting IG users and brushing off attacks from a Starbrand wielder) in panic of Franklin calling him "beyond Omega level" and a "universal level Shaper". All that power and he feared the "Dark Man".

I can't see Abraxas losing this fight (vs Dream).

Nah i understand why youre saying what you are, but think about Franklin as a whole character as opposed to just his power set when making the assessment.

Franklins what. about 7 or 8, hes not a very experienced fighter, hes not experienced in the use of his powers because for the majority of his life they have been suppressed, most of the great stuff he has done has been subconsciously. As a 7 or 8 year old kid, running away from some nightmare figure that was haunting you in your dreams is understandable. That instance cant then be used as an indicator for Abraxas' power.

If it was an experienced, battle ready Franklin in full command of his power fighting Abraxas, losing and running away, then your point would be solid. However in this case when you take all points into consideration, a child running away from a boogeyman is not good enough evidence to make the point youre trying to. Im a grown man, however i hate spiders, they spark an irrational fear in me and i will evacuate a house if a big one comes near me, thats in spite of me being very physically capable of squashing it like its nothing. So think about the character, not just his powerset.

As for Eternity, i mentioned the Chaos War incident for a reason. The top tiers not getting involved despite a threat to themselves is standard. It would make for a boring story if they stomped a threat in two panels. Again, if Eternity had faced off against Abraxas and lost or made a comment pertaining to his power being dwarfed by Abraxas' then your point would be solid, but in Marvel there is a precedence for the top tiers to leave the heroes to do the work and save the day because it is them that we buy comic books to read about

Originally posted by zopzop
And what happens when you wipe out all sentient beings in the universe (along with the universe and everything in it)?

You'd need to wipe out every single thinking thing that could possibly Dream (in the Vertigoverse, this includes stars, planets, gods etc) in the entirity of creation to Destroy Dream that way.

But considering the fight is just Abraxas vs Dream, he can't leave the battle to kill an unknown number of universes, especially with Dream actively trying to stop him...

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nah i understand why youre saying what you are, but think about Franklin as a whole character as opposed to just his power set when making the assessment.

Franklins what. about 7 or 8, hes not a very experienced fighter, hes not experienced in the use of his powers because for the majority of his life they have been suppressed, most of the great stuff he has done has been subconsciously. As a 7 or 8 year old kid, running away from some nightmare figure that was haunting you in your dreams is understandable. That instance cant then be used as an indicator for Abraxas' power.

If it was an experienced, battle ready Franklin in full command of his power fighting Abraxas, losing and running away, then your point would be solid. However in this case when you take all points into consideration, a child running away from a boogeyman is not good enough evidence to make the point youre trying to. Im a grown man, however i hate spiders, they spark an irrational fear in me and i will evacuate a house if a big one comes near me, thats in spite of me being very physically capable of squashing it like its nothing. So think about the character, not just his powerset.

As for Eternity, i mentioned the Chaos War incident for a reason. The top tiers not getting involved despite a threat to themselves is standard. It would make for a boring story if they stomped a threat in two panels. Again, if Eternity had faced off against Abraxas and lost or made a comment pertaining to his power being dwarfed by Abraxas' then your point would be solid, but in Marvel there is a precedence for the top tiers to leave the heroes to do the work and save the day because it is them that we buy comic books to read about

in regards to franklin his power has increased

galactus doesn't want to face em

the celestials still regard him as a peer

so he's not running from anyone

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
You'd need to wipe out every single thinking thing that could possibly Dream (in the Vertigoverse, this includes stars, planets, gods etc) in the entirity of creation to Destroy Dream that way.
What do you mean, "the entirety of creation"? You trying to tell me the Endless are multiversal entities? Cause I call BS on that.

How on Earth do you see ONE ASPECT of the universe, Dream, doing better than the conceptual being representing the ENTIRE MULTIVERSE and EVERYTHING IN IT. Does that make ANY sense?



Dream? "Stopping" Abraxas from doing ANYTHING?!

Originally posted by abhilegend

Originally posted by abhilegend


I second this.

Originally posted by zopzop

What do you mean, "the entirety of creation"? You trying to tell me the Endless are multiversal entities? Cause I call BS on that.

How on Earth do you see ONE ASPECT of the universe, Dream, doing better than the conceptual being representing the ENTIRE MULTIVERSE and EVERYTHING IN IT. Does that make ANY sense?



Dream? "Stopping" Abraxas from doing ANYTHING?!
Do you have any proof that morpheus isn't multiversal other than your objects that "LOL, he isn't"? Yes endless are multiversal, there is only one Death in DC as shown in Action comics 894. You are severaly underestimating dream here. He put down Ultimator, a being made of EVERYTHING in creation in past, present and future when even mxy and entire 5th dimension were helpless against it. Yeah abraxas scared some type of eternity (jobberking in all comicdom, seriously tell me a fight where eternity won) in MU and booed a child in his dreams, who gives a shit? What has he done on-panel that you are laughing at the idea of dream posing any kind of threat to abraxas?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Do you have any proof that morpheus isn't multiversal other than your objects that "LOL, he isn't"? Yes endless are multiversal, there is only one Death in DC as shown in Action comics 894. You are severaly underestimating dream here. He put down Ultimator, a being made of EVERYTHING in creation in past, present and future when even mxy and entire 5th dimension were helpless against it. Yeah abraxas scared some type of eternity (jobberking in all comicdom, seriously tell me a fight where eternity won) in MU and booed a child in his dreams, who gives a shit? What has he done on-panel that you are laughing at the idea of dream posing any kind of threat to abraxas?

Ok, so you have ZERO proof he's multiversal. Got it.

Dream is just ONE of the many conceptual beings that make up a universe. Multi-Eternity, NOT ETERNITY (the "jobber king", MULTI-ETERNITY is entirety of the multiverse and EVERYTHING in it. This being was powerless against Abraxas. I don't get what's so hard to understand. Dream is just one of MANY conceptual beings that exist within a universe. Multi-Eternity is the MULTIVERSE and everything in it. This is stated on panel.

Regarding the "7 year old". This "7 year old" was holding off Rogue Celestials. These beings were in a panic and called him "beyond Omega level" and a "universal level Shaper". These same beings were ONE SHOTTING Infinity Gauntlet users and ignoring attacks from a Starbrand user.

Dream is completely out of his league here.

i'm not sure about morpheus's sphere of influence. comparing cosmics in marvel and dc doesn't always work because the cosmology is different. pretty sure there was a time where vertigo was considered a separate universe from dc main, but characters like dream and destiny have bounced back and forth. but i could be wrong about the dc/vertigo division. they may have merged. dc's universal boundaries have always been much more difficult to gauge. what is 'universal' or 'multiversal' in marvel may not translate exactly.

Actually, all the LT's in every multiverse are his avatars. LT is Omnipresent. Like Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet, he can exist in multiple locations at the same time. Where as LT can exist in every multiverse at the same time.Originally posted by zopzop
The feat is valid because there's only ONE LT throughout the multiverse. Reed Richards, even if it's the MC2 one, defeated the LT and a host of other cosmics. In all Marvel that's only occurred like twice : Thanos with the HotU and the Protege.

Originally posted by zopzop
Ok, so you have ZERO proof he's multiversal. Got it.

Dream is just ONE of the many conceptual beings that make up a universe. Multi-Eternity, NOT ETERNITY (the "jobber king", MULTI-ETERNITY is entirety of the multiverse and EVERYTHING in it. This being was powerless against Abraxas. I don't get what's so hard to understand. Dream is just one of MANY conceptual beings that exist within a universe. Multi-Eternity is the MULTIVERSE and everything in it. This is stated on panel.

Regarding the "7 year old". This "7 year old" was holding off Rogue Celestials. These beings were in a panic and called him "beyond Omega level" and a "universal level Shaper". These same beings were ONE SHOTTING Infinity Gauntlet users and ignoring attacks from a Starbrand user.

Dream is completely out of his league here.
So you are just ignoring whatever anyone says. Endless are multiversal as they have no counterparts in any other universe like spectre and LT. Lulz, morpheus ACTUALLY beat a guy who was made of everything in creation, ULTIMATOR. Alternate reality versions, you are acting like they were using 616 IG and UN. Where did you got that they were panicked, all franklin did was warp an attack in flowers and currently is fleeing from them. Franklin was scared shitless and unable to do anything against onslaught while onslaught was using his power, so let me guess onslaught is a celestial level threat. What you aren't understanding that for all his power franklin was still a small child and could get scared easily. If abraxas ignored franklin's powers while he was using them, you would've had a point. In reality, all he did was to scare a child. You are declaring "abraxas wins" like it's anything more than your opinion.

Disagree, The Endless beings like Dream have shown to have sway over the entire multiverse. Death herself has ended universes. This is established in Sandman cannon. Has Abraxas ever fought other abstract forces? cus in Marvel, they have dozens of so called multiverse type beings. Liek I said, if Abraxas is really causing alot of commotion in MU, he would be on LT's radar.
Originally posted by zopzop
Ok, so you have ZERO proof he's multiversal. Got it.

Dream is just ONE of the many conceptual beings that make up a universe. Multi-Eternity, NOT ETERNITY (the "jobber king", MULTI-ETERNITY is entirety of the multiverse and EVERYTHING in it. This being was powerless against Abraxas. I don't get what's so hard to understand. Dream is just one of MANY conceptual beings that exist within a universe. Multi-Eternity is the MULTIVERSE and everything in it. This is stated on panel.

Regarding the "7 year old". This "7 year old" was holding off Rogue Celestials. These beings were in a panic and called him "beyond Omega level" and a "universal level Shaper". These same beings were ONE SHOTTING Infinity Gauntlet users and ignoring attacks from a Starbrand user.

Dream is completely out of his league here.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

I'm seeing some horrible logic in this thread. Really, really horrible.

Its origins can be traced back to Mr Masters hyping of this Abraxas
character and unfortunately too many people swallowed his sh*t
without any analysis of the story arc themselves.
Dude, seriously, can you get off my d*ck!

I don't go around spitting your name without you involved in your lunacy.

You're a *****
to be besmirching my name without me being related to the discussion.

I have no respect for at all for you from now on, we have our wars,
but your disrespect has crossed the line.

Go phuck yourself ... seriously, no need for stupid smilies on this one,
go ... phuck ... yourself!

As for the thread ...

Unless Dream is more powerful than the embodiment
of DC's Multiversal Space-Time Continuum ... Dream loses.

Simple.
Originally posted by zopzop

MULTI-ETERNITY is entirety of the multiverse and EVERYTHING
in it. This being was powerless against Abraxas. I don't get what's
so hard to understand. Multi-Eternity is the MULTIVERSE
and everything in it. This is stated on panel.

Regarding the "7 year old". This "7 year old" was holding off Rogue
Celestials. These beings were in a panic and called him "beyond
Omega level" and a "universal level Shaper". These same beings
were ONE SHOTTING Infinity Gauntlet users and ignoring attacks
from a Starbrand user.

***********

The power of the Multiversal Space-Time Continuum does this:

***********

http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/3607110_etpf1.jpg

"Wolds within Worlds, Dimensions folding into themselves,
Entire UniverseS being born, and collapsing into ruin,
and yet I sense that ALL This -- is but a fraction of what Eternity is,

the core, the Heart of Eternity's being ... here All Energy, All Matter, lies,
I will detonate Eternity's Heart --- triggering another Creation event,
Re-Birthing every being and thing in All the UniverseS"


Yet it was hopeless against Abraxas.

---------------------------------------------


http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/10271747_A6.jpg http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/10271748_A7.jpg http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/10271749_A8.jpg

The dead Galactuses
represent a plethora of Realities that have already fallen to Abraxas.

This scene isn't of Abraxas standing in one universe with bodies around him,
this is Eternity showing Reed what Abraxas has already done across creation.

----------------------------------------------

... and how was Abraxas causing "the Multiverse ...
... to shift as constantly as the ocean crashes on a sand of castle?" (as Reed put it)

Also, the Multiverse is continually "shifting" cause UniverseS
continue to merge as Abraxas makes his way pass them towards 616.

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/10271759_A21.jpg


Anyway, so how?

The only way possible, the way he was created to do it:

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/10271725_A5.jpg

Exactly. By merging UniverseS together (folding them) with his presence, which leads to collapse.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------


All that and finally we got Abraxas' own bio in his Power descriptions:

"Abaraxs ... power enabling him to traverse and manipulate Dimensions at will,
restructure matter ... "

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/10271783_A20.jpg


--------

AB - FF Ultimate Guide bio:

Restructuring Reality is nothing to Abraxas!

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/792539_Ab6.jpg

"He can restructure matter and convert physical matter into pure energy ...
he has destroyed entire PLANES of Reality"



http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/792403_Ab.jpg

"We're dealing with a being of Godlike powers, BENDING Reality means nothing to him"

---------------------------------------------


Reed Richards said that with certainty
when he was not only shown in a cosmic theatre by Eternity,

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/10279927/AAA.jpg.html

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/10279928/A9.jpg.html

... but he himself certified this fact via his instrumentation
when they registered alternate realities merging across the Multiverse:

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/10279936/AAA3.jpg.html

Originally posted by abhilegend
So you are just ignoring whatever anyone says. Endless are multiversal as they have no counterparts in any other universe like spectre and LT. Lulz, morpheus ACTUALLY beat a guy who was made of everything in creation, ULTIMATOR. Alternate reality versions, you are acting like they were using 616 IG and UN. Where did you got that they were panicked, all franklin did was warp an attack in flowers and currently is fleeing from them. Franklin was scared shitless and unable to do anything against onslaught while onslaught was using his power, so let me guess onslaught is a celestial level threat. What you aren't understanding that for all his power franklin was still a small child and could get scared easily. If abraxas ignored franklin's powers while he was using them, you would've had a point. In reality, all he did was to scare a child. You are declaring "abraxas wins" like it's anything more than your opinion.

Good call on Ultimater. He's certainly more powerful than Abraxas.

Originally posted by abhilegend
So you are just ignoring whatever anyone says. Endless are multiversal as they have no counterparts in any other universe like spectre and LT. Lulz, morpheus ACTUALLY beat a guy who was made of everything in creation, ULTIMATOR. Alternate reality versions, you are acting like they were using 616 IG and UN. Where did you got that they were panicked, all franklin did was warp an attack in flowers and currently is fleeing from them. Franklin was scared shitless and unable to do anything against onslaught while onslaught was using his power, so let me guess onslaught is a celestial level threat. What you aren't understanding that for all his power franklin was still a small child and could get scared easily. If abraxas ignored franklin's powers while he was using them, you would've had a point. In reality, all he did was to scare a child. You are declaring "abraxas wins" like it's anything more than your opinion.

Dude, Dream is JUST ONE OF THE MANY CONCEPTS that make up a universe. Even IF he's multiversal (no proof offered as of yet but whatever), he's not the TOTALITY of the multiverse. He's just one aspect out of many.

Multi-Eternity is the TOTALITY of the MULTIVERSE and EVERYTHING in it. Is that so hard to understand?

Those Rogue Celestials were in fear of him. You saw the scans and you still arguing?

And what did Dream do to Ultimator? He talked him to sleep after Mxy tped him into Dream's realm. Then Mxy sealed him up. Some feat.

What is DC's Embodiment of Multiversal Space Time Continuum? Dream does not adhere to time continuum. Dream is a freeking primal concept. You are talking about a guy that Lucifer Morningstar respects.Originally posted by Mr Master
As for the thread ...

Unless Dream is more powerful than the embodiment
of DC's Multiversal Space-Time Continuum ... Dream loses.

Simple.

The Endless beings like Dream are the cream of the crop. DC states they are the aspects of DC 's creation. You cannot destroy what is an idea. Also says The Endless are as old as the concepts that they represent. Originally posted by zopzop
Dude, Dream is JUST ONE OF THE MANY CONCEPTS that make up a universe. Even IF he's multiversal (no proof offered as of yet but whatever), he's not the TOTALITY of the multiverse. He's just one aspect out of many.

Multi-Eternity is the TOTALITY of the MULTIVERSE and EVERYTHING in it. Is that so hard to understand?

Those Rogue Celestials were in fear of him. You saw the scans and you still arguing?

And what did Dream do to Ultimator? He talked him to sleep after Mxy tped him into Dream's realm. Then Mxy sealed him up. Some feat.

Originally posted by zopzop
Dude, Dream is JUST ONE OF THE MANY CONCEPTS that make up a universe. Even IF he's multiversal (no proof offered as of yet but whatever), he's not the TOTALITY of the multiverse. He's just one aspect out of many.

Multi-Eternity is the TOTALITY of the MULTIVERSE and EVERYTHING in it. Is that so hard to understand?

Those Rogue Celestials were in fear of him. You saw the scans and you still arguing?

And what did Dream do to Ultimator? He talked him to sleep after Mxy tped him into Dream's realm. Then Mxy sealed him up. Some feat.
Proof? There is only one death in DC multiverse, only one dream in dc multiverse. Alternate reality celestials beating alt IG users,whoop de doo. Galactus is going to take on them soon, you would find that how powerful they are. Well ultimator was the embodiment of ALL THERE IS and morpheus beat him on-panel. What did abraxas do besides scaring some jobber and a child and some other off-panel shit?

Originally posted by lilshogun

The Endless beings like Dream are the cream of the crop.
DC
states they are the aspects of DC 's creation.
You cannot destroy what is an idea.
Also says The Endless are as old as the concepts that they
represent.
Eternity/Infinity are the cream of the crop.
Marvel states (and presents on panel) they are the aspects of Marvel's creation.
You can destroy an idea in Marvel,
too bad if you can't in DC which is not true anyway..
Also know Eternity/Infinity are as old as the concepts that they
represent.

Originally posted by abhilegend

What did abraxas do besides scaring some jobber
and a child and some other off-panel shit?
Abraxas was casually warping entire universes across the Multiverse without effort.

Abraxas mind wiped Uatu, (a Watcher)
stole half his emblem
and comatose him from universeS away.
He also incinerated Surfer from universeS away.

Abraxas killed a specific target (every alternate Reed)
across all realities with a thought, while simultaneously killing 616 Reed slowly.

Abraxas also killed an unknown number of alternate Galactuses across the Multiverse.

Abraxas had universal warper Franklin terrified and helpless,
he also had the power of the Multiversal Space-Time Continuum afraid
and helpless.

*** In the story,
it was also a fact that nothing short of UN-like power could stop Abraxas.

Abraxas being the anti-thesis
to the power of the Multiversal Space-Time Continuum (Eternity/Infinity)
it makes perfect sense why a weapon that can erase and re-create anew the 616 Multiverse
was need to defeat him.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Proof? There is only one death in DC multiverse, only one dream in dc multiverse. Alternate reality celestials beating alt IG users,whoop de doo. Galactus is going to take on them soon, you would find that how powerful they are. Well ultimator was the embodiment of ALL THERE IS and morpheus beat him on-panel. What did abraxas do besides scaring some jobber and a child and some other off-panel shit?

Even IF Dream is multiversal, he's still but one of MANY concepts that comprise the multiverse. Do you get that? He's not the totality of the muliverse given form. He's just one of many!

Multi-Eternity is the multiverse and EVERYTHING in it. Not just Time, or Dream, or Chaos, or Order, or Space, or Time, or Desire, or Hate, etc.. He's EVERYTHING. All that was powerless against Abraxas.

Deam is out of his league here.

Edit :

All he did was BORE Ultimator to sleep after Mxy tped him into Dream's realm. WTF kind of feat is that?

^Better than anything abraxas did. Well I'm going to bed now, its 5 am here.

Originally posted by abhilegend
^Better than anything abraxas did. Well I'm going to bed now, its 5 am here.

Not really. Boring someone to sleep isn't much of a feat.
http://imageshack.us/f/185/mx2mm8.jpg/

Plus there's reason to believe it was all a made up story told by Mxy :
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/842/1248433newyearsevilmrmx.jpg/

Originally posted by zopzop
The feat is valid because there's only ONE LT throughout the multiverse. Reed Richards, even if it's the MC2 one, defeated the LT and a host of other cosmics. In all Marvel that's only occurred like twice : Thanos with the HotU and the Protege. Kay. Still doesn't apply to 616 Reed in any way/shape/form.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Dude, seriously, can you get off my d*ck!

I don't go around spitting your name without you involved in your lunacy.

You're a *****
to be besmirching my name without me being related to the discussion.

I have no respect for at all for you from now on, we have our wars,
but your disrespect has crossed the line.

Go phuck yourself ... seriously, no need for stupid smilies on this one,
go ... phuck ... yourself!



What a hypocrite.

But whatever chick.

It really isnt that serious.

Originally posted by Galan007
Kay. Still doesn't apply to 616 Reed in any way/shape/form.

Oh I know. That's why I included 616 Reed feats like using the UN to reshape/restore the entire multiverse and having personal tech that accomplishes what alt reality IGs and Starbrands failed to do.

Originally posted by zopzop
Oh I know. Okay, cool. Just seemed like you were trying to apply that feat to 616 Reed.

Put it this way Death, Oblivion, Epiphany, Enmity, Eulogy, Expediency, Empathy , and last Eternity are what they say is equivalent to the Endless. As for Eternity, Abraxas is a poop that came out from him.

Dunno about that based what I see, Reed just restored a Universe not the whole entire MU. So they are a universe within a universe. However that is more hyperbole than anything.

Originally posted by zopzop
Oh I know. That's why I included 616 Reed feats like using the UN to reshape/restore the entire multiverse and having personal tech that accomplishes what alt reality IGs and Starbrands failed to do.

616 Reed is just a tool. Anyhow, Abraxas is pretty much on the level of Galactus, not Eternity/Infinity. The Resurrection of Galactus arc was very odd and disjointed. Not a very good read for not a very good villain. Abraxas top feats were off panel killings of Galactus'.
Originally posted by Galan007
Kay. Still doesn't apply to 616 Reed in any way/shape/form.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Abraxas was casually warping entire universes across the Multiverse without effort.

Abraxas mind wiped Uatu, (a Watcher)
stole half his emblem
and comatose him from universeS away.
He also incinerated Surfer from universeS away.

Abraxas killed a specific target (every alternate Reed)
across all realities with a thought, while simultaneously killing 616 Reed slowly.

Abraxas also killed an unknown number of alternate Galactuses across the Multiverse.

Abraxas had universal warper Franklin terrified and helpless,
he also had the power of the Multiversal Space-Time Continuum afraid
and helpless.

*** In the story,
it was also a fact that nothing short of UN-like power could stop Abraxas.

Abraxas being the anti-thesis
to the power of the Multiversal Space-Time Continuum (Eternity/Infinity)
it makes perfect sense why a weapon that can erase and re-create anew the 616 Multiverse
was need to defeat him.

some of the above points i would disagree with, or at least interpret differently than you have, like i'd disagree with that dormammu scan you posted. we've been over this before, but i do not in any way see that as multi-eternity, but rather just the same eternity that dormammu faced previously.

abraxas was clearly meant to be uber. just how uber was not clearly defined imo. i don't think he has any real place in forum fights.

Originally posted by leonidas

some of the above points i would disagree with, or at least
interpret differently than you have, like i'd disagree with that
dormammu scan you posted. we've been over this before, but i do
not in any way see that as multi-eternity, but rather just the same
eternity that dormammu faced previously
It's always the same Eternity concerning 616,
since the consciousness of 616 Eternity spreads across every Eternity
that makes up its totality.

That aside, yes, we been through this before, and I'm still 100%
confident it was the power of the Multiversal Space-Time Continuum that
Dormy witnessed.

It's not the first time we see Eternity presented in such a grandiose state.

Strange also witnessed Eternity holding entire UniverseS,
Past, Present & Future in one hand:

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1582628_etisuni2copysh4.jpg


He knows well:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/721893_etrw0.jpg

"Eternity IS A GOD! He is ...
the complete embodiment of everyone and everything ...
... on All levels of Creation"

pretty sure i'm the one that showed you that first strange scan. you asked me where i got it. and yeah, that was regular old eternity in that scan, NOT multi-eternity as it was before multi was even thought of.

the second scan merely reiterates the first. in that defenders arc, eternity even mentions having met dormammu before. still don't see how you take 2 such disparate arcs as that defenders arc and that ff arc and come up with the same character being in each. especially when multi eternity is never named in that defenders arc. in fact, outside that ff arc, HAS the term multi-eternity ever been used....?

Originally posted by leonidas
the second scan merely reiterates the first. in that defenders arc, eternity even mentions having met dormammu before. still don't see how you take 2 such disparate arcs as that defenders arc and that ff arc and come up with the same character being in each. especially when multi eternity is never named in that defenders arc. in fact, outside that ff arc, HAS the term multi-eternity ever been used....?

Even though Dormammu mentions seeing Universes inside Eternity?

And even if Dormammu said that this is but the merest of fraction of what Eternity is?

Originally posted by Igniz
Even though Dormammu mentions seeing Universes inside Eternity?

the first scan ALREADY confirms that eternity (singular) is comprised of universeS.....



well, i could turn that question around--if he were actually speaking of multi-eternity and said that, would the comment make anymore sense? i think it would make even less. what more COULD there be if he were referencing multi-eternity?

just look at the evidence:

(a) we know eternity (singular) is made of universeS. (on panel)
(b) we know dormmy once confronted eternity, and this meeting is actually REFERENCED by eternity in that same arc.
(c) dormmy actually (through pis) CONQUERED the eternity entity in that arc
(d) multi is never mentioned by name

now we're supposed to just suppose that the entity is multi, and that he remembers dormmy because one infinitesimally small portion of him once confronted him? we're also supposed to ignore the fact that multi was never mentioned and simply except (without a shred of proof) that dormmy ACTUALLY took over the ENTIRE MULTIVERSE (ruled all alternate dimensions, etc)? only to lose--again--to strange and the defenders.

yeah, i'm afraid that is something that i will NEVER be convinced of.