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Captain Commander


http://memberfiles.freewebs.com/71/19/55041971/photos/Gotei-13/Yamamoto.jpg



vs.



Turtle Hermit


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/hr/f/f3/Master_Roshi.jpg


- to the death.
- full power.
- Roshi from DB.

i have this as Roshi from DB 'cause i assume he was better in his youth, but i suppose he's more powerful in DBZ?... whichever the case, make it Roshi at his best.

Roshi destroyed the moon. Better than anything Yamamoto ever did iirc.

Yeah... Roshi.

sure, 'cause Yama's gonna get hit by a kamehameha wave.

Roshi doesn't need a full power one to kill Yama.

Yama's fast enough to dodge any kai blast... and strong enough to shrug a weak one off.

The gap between the best thing Yama has tanked and moon busting is astronomical.

Roshi is frankly quantifiably faster.

Originally posted by NemeBro
The gap between the best thing Yama has tanked and moon busting is astronomical. as i said, Yama's too fast. in the time it would take to charge a blast powerful enough to destroy the moon, Roshi would find his head resting at his feet.

Also, on that subject, destroying the moon (a planet) is not even close to being the same thing as killing a person. planet busting feats in DB/Z are accomplished by shooting energy into the body's core which effectively detonates it. All it takes to overcome a kai blast is being stronger than said blast, that's why characters slapped 'em away all the time. planets, as you know, are defenseless.

I could be wrong, but i think Cell is the only person dumb enough to actually be destroyed by a kai blast.

Yama tanked hundreds of rapid class 100 punches so i doubt any random kai blast is gonna hurt him. Yama also contained a blast that would have completely disintegrated an entire town. Not one Kai blast EVER fired in the history of DB/Z could disintegrate a city.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Roshi is frankly quantifiably faster. lol. elaborate please.

Yeah, no.

Roshi is not faster than the Captain Commander. People like Yuroichi and Byakuya, who are known far and wide as Flash Step Masters, faster than most people, can't hold a candle to him.

And these are speeds fast enough to go from one end of a city to the other in an instant.

Roshi can't even fly, and the most speed we've ever seen from his is the after image I believe.

*eats popcorn*

I'm in for a show. Yay.

Mach 5 Byakuya/Ichigo/Ukitake < Yamamoto.

Mach 14+ Tao < Roshi.


Tao is already far faster than the any known speed feat in Bleach save for Dangai Ichigo's slash speed, who would easily blitz Yama.

And a fraction of that mountain busting wave would be above Yama's low-city durability.

1. where are you getting these numbers?
2. what episode does Roshi learn to fly?

Not sure about mach 5, but some previous calcs put Ichi bankai level speed at 3-5. Though think it was from Byakuya's 'twice as fast when I use my hands' comment. And as the best speed before that fight had Shikai Ichi barely at supersonic, his Bankai form during the fight would be at most touching hypersonic.

The 14 comes from Tao throwing a pillar at Mach 14 then jumping even faster than that to land on it. Some guy made the calc, (will find if needed) though Tao himself estimates beforehand that he'd throw it at Mach 7, still making him at the 14 mark for jumping faster than it.

Apparently some new calcs call the Bleach ones into question. Fun times.

Just the Byakuya/Ma5 one I think, making the next highest Mach 3ish.

Originally posted by marwash22
as i said, Yama's too fast. in the time it would take to charge a blast powerful enough to destroy the moon, Roshi would find his head resting at his feet.

He could just charge one powerful enough to destroy a mountain. That is easily adequate.



Hilarious.

No, that is how Freeza destroyed planet Namek. When Muten Roshi and Piccolo destroyed the moon, it was vaporised.

To be blunt, destroying the core of the moon is still easily powerful enough to kill every Bleach character.



Are you actually implying that turning a town to ash requires more power than destroying the core of a planet? haermm

Also, bullshit, Nappa disintegrated a city with a blast the size of a country with a gesture.



Roshi is stronger than Tao. Tao, who was calced at mach 14.

Monster Aizen, the second strongest character after Dangai Ichigo, was calced at mach 10.

Whoa.

"Pretty sure that mach 7 was the accepted calc." ~Guy on Yamamoto.

@ Nem.

1. Sure. And Yama's just gonna stand there while he charges. I love it when people treat a fight like it's one sided as if the fighter they aren't backing doesn't know a fight is taking place. You can't say one fighter will blitz and have the other stand there like a mouth breather. Roshi would have no answer for shunpo... save your bs calculations and show me Roshi fighting someone who can 'port miles at a time with very little effort.

2. Bullshit. That is an absurd thing to claim. The blast he fired clearly did not VAPORIZE the moon. The blast BLEW UP the moon which is completely different and shows that energy was shot through the body which caused it to explode. If it what you claimed had actually happened, there wouldn't have been chunks of moon flying, instead the entire body would have been turned into dust. stop making stuff up.

Also, dunno how many times i need to say it, but Yama isn't just gonna stand still while someone fires a blast in his direction.


3. That's not what i said and until you acknowledge the difference between blowing something up and completely vaporizing it, there's no need for me to continue the discussion.

Originally posted by marwash22
1. Sure. And Yama's just gonna stand there while he charges. I love it when people treat a fight like it's one sided as if the fighter they aren't backing doesn't know a fight is taking place. You can't say one fighter will blitz and have the other stand there like a mouth breather. Roshi would have no answer for shunpo... save your bs calculations and show me Roshi fighting someone who can 'port miles at a time with very little effort.

He doesn't need to use his most powerful blast to kill Yamamoto.

No answer for Shunpo? Why? Because you say so? Can you show me a time frame in the manga panels for how long it took them to run kilometers?

Also, lolno, calcs are valid. Without them, we would have stupid people just arguing interpretations of feats, without quantifying them.

Yamamoto is much slower than Monster Aizen, who is four machs behind Tao.



You know I frankly don't care. Either one is astronomically more powerful than Bleach's best feat, if I forgot exactly how the moon was destroyed, it doesn't matter.



You can say it however many times you like. It doesn't make you right.



Acknowledge that vaporising a town is not actually as good a feat as "blowing up" the moon.

Oh Marwash, you and your Bleach wank. Never change.

Several problems with this thread:


Toriyama did not realize what he was doing with Tao because he has no idea what math is. Feat must be disregarded as stupid trash, imo.


This would be the fighting speed of characters, not the linear speed. Fighting speed is not the same thing as jumping in a straight line.

Quantify the speed of fighting movements, not jumps or some sh*t. Then we can talk about how fast they are compared to each other.

As it goes, in Bleach, their strikes and fighting movements are faster than pre-time skip DB feats. At least IMO.

the way people act when it comes to DBZ characters and powerscaling suggests that they have cameras that can track ftl movements in the timeskip.

There are no FTL DBZ characters.

Though, recent calcs put Mystic Gohan and Buutenks at mach 20,000 reaction-time, and capable of dishing out some shit like a quintillion tons of force with a punch (Oh boy I just gave carver some fuel).

dadudemon, why is it trash?

Also, Roshi has also, after they were fired, turned around and caught hails of machine-gun fire casually and in his non-full powered mode.

And lolno, not falling into the combat vs. movement speed shit, Tao had to react to the thrown pillar, outstrip it, and land on it, which, with the mach 14 feat, puts Tao comfortably above any quantifiable Bleach speed feat short of Dangai Ichigo.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Toriyama did not realize what he was doing with Tao because he has no idea what math is. Feat must be disregarded as stupid trash, imo.


This would be the fighting speed of characters, not the linear speed. Fighting speed is not the same thing as jumping in a straight line.

Quantify the speed of fighting movements, not jumps or some sh*t. Then we can talk about how fast they are compared to each other.

As it goes, in Bleach, their strikes and fighting movements are faster than pre-time skip DB feats. At least IMO.

Why? If he is bad at maths then thats more the reason to accept the fan calc of Ma14, not his 7.

Isnt the whole movement vs combat speed thing dependant on the character or series? IMO there should be either an in-series reason or a blindingly solid one to suggest it.

Also whats the difference between combat speed and jumping speed? Theyre both similar movements with the only differemce being the range.



Ma20,000 huh? Well.. damn.

Originally posted by NemeBro
There are no FTL DBZ characters.According to you, that makes no sense.

Piccolo blew up the moon and the blast took about a second to get there.... lol, that's not lightspeed?

You are contradicting yourself unless you're admitting that Toriyama was extremely lazy, inconsistent and completely disrespectful when it came to math. If you are admitting that, then it makes your entire argument about speed nonsense.

Now, for characters to continuously dodge progressively more powerful (fast) kai blasts, it means they are indeed ftl. So either the characters ARE faster than light, or things that happen in the series can't be measured using real world math because the creator didn't give a crap about real world math or being consistent in the way he portrayed speed.

Actually the light and Piccolo's blast raced to the moon. The light won.

what?

cISA_kFfURc

3:55. what light are you talking about? The blast gets there in less than 2 seconds, the energy goes into the moon, the moon explodes.

Originally posted by NemeBro
dadudemon, why is it trash?

Mostly because it is my opinion...but partly because I said so. uhuh

Originally posted by NemeBro
Also, Roshi has also, after they were fired, turned around and caught hails of machine-gun fire casually and in his non-full powered mode.

This does not require movements any faster than Mach 1 (or far less).

I think even you explained this, before. It was not you, then I'll explain it again.

Moving your hand 1 foot to intercept bullet to bullet does not require you to move your hands at the same speed the bullets are traveling. It just requires you move your hands fast enough to move from point A to point B in the time it takes bullets A and B arrive at their destination.

Let us use the AK-47 because it is ****ing reliable and has a nice number to work with.

It fires 600 rounds per minute so it fires 10 rounds a second. Pretend the pattern is within 1 foot (meaning, consecutive bullets stay within 1 foot of each other on a "target" but no more). So you have to move your hands 1 foot, at the most, between each bullet. That means you have to move 10 feet in 1 second to keep up with the incoming bullets. I will produce an average speed for you to give you an indication of how fast he his moving his hands:

10 feet a second = 6.8 miles per hour.



Originally posted by NemeBro
And lolno, not falling into the combat vs. movement speed shit, Tao had to react to the thrown pillar, outstrip it, and land on it, which, with the mach 14 feat, puts Tao comfortably above any quantifiable Bleach speed feat short of Dangai Ichigo.

You must entertain the linear movement vs. combat speed argument. You have no choice if you choose to participate. If Tao could fight at mach 14, we would have had a much different story from him. Surely you realize this?

Additionally, training yourself to jump in the same direction as something you just threw is hardly indicative of you masterful you. We do this thing all the time as humans. We just don't do it at the speeds Tao did. He does not have to know where the pillar is, at all, in order to jump on it. It's superhuman strength and his martial arts mastery to do a very stringent action in a very perfect way (again, the same thing we as humans do in martial arts just without the super strength and perception) that allows him to jump on the pillar. This does not mean, however, that he fights at mach 14. It just means he can jump in a single direction at mach 14. It's still a shit feat because I am quite sure Toriyama didn't think about wind resistance, the forces required to accomplish that ask, and the practicality of throwing an object that hard (and the massive crater that would happen...much less the burning due to the wind resistance that would occur...man, so many shit physics related things going on).


Like I said...it is combat speed we should always measure, NOT linear jumping motions.


Notice that I have not picked a side? Regardless, I, for once, think Marawash is right about his points.



Originally posted by marwash22
...or things that happen in the series can't be measured using real world math because the creator didn't give a crap about real world math or being consistent in the way he portrayed speed.

This...

But I'd argue that some things COULD still be measured. Just not everything.

Originally posted by marwash22
what?

cISA_kFfURc

3:55. what light are you talking about? The blast gets there in less than 2 seconds, the energy goes into the moon, the moon explodes.

The moon does not shine. It reflects light from the sun. The light had been at the moon long before Piccolo's blast. vin

On another note...Gohan has a very very tiny package. No wonder he doesn't want to fight: he has not manhood to make him aggressive.

He got to bang Videl. Gotta respect him for that.

I like Videl. mmm

I like Bra. I would have so sharked her in that tube top. Let them kittens get some air, mang! lol

Originally posted by dadudemon
I like Bra. I would have so sharked her in that tube top. Let them kittens get some air, mang! lol

I do too...but how old was she? I mean, she certainly looked like a teenager but...yeah.

Originally posted by marwash22
According to you, that makes no sense.

Piccolo blew up the moon and the blast took about a second to get there.... lol, that's not lightspeed?

You are contradicting yourself unless you're admitting that Toriyama was extremely lazy, inconsistent and completely disrespectful when it came to math. If you are admitting that, then it makes your entire argument about speed nonsense.

Now, for characters to continuously dodge progressively more powerful (fast) kai blasts, it means they are indeed ftl. So either the characters ARE faster than light, or things that happen in the series can't be measured using real world math because the creator didn't give a crap about real world math or being consistent in the way he portrayed speed. I wasn't considering the anime. The manga didn't actually give a time frame, boyo.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Mostly because it is my opinion...but partly because I said so. uhuh

Nah.



No.


Afraid not.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Nah.



No.


Afraid not.

This is the best argument I have ever seen. I am swayed by your weighty logic and amend my position.

I know, right? Sometimes I surprise myself.

Though on a serious note, upon further reflection, I might have to be pressed to consider Roshi busting the moon a serious outlier at the time he did it.

Since a full power blast from Piccolo later was "only" capable of destroying a city.

Originally posted by NemeBro
I know, right? Sometimes I surprise myself.

Though on a serious note, upon further reflection, I might have to be pressed to consider Roshi busting the moon a serious outlier at the time he did it.

Since a full power blast from Piccolo later was "only" capable of destroying a city.

You're coming aboard with my reasoning, now.

It is only a matter of time before I convince you to throw out the stupid powerful, but completely illogical and factually impossible feats, feats from some comic book characters.

The Thing can demolish plateaus.

No he can't.


Edward can tear Thing apart, limb from limb. Thing would beg to have rough rock sex with Edward rather than death.

Afraid not.

Edward would punch Thing and break his fist.

Oh, fyi, the Thing is more durable than he is strong.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Afraid not.

Edward would punch Thing and break his fist.

Oh, fyi, the Thing is more durable than he is strong.

Afraid so.

Edward wouldn't be punching Thing, at all. That's not even his MO.

Oh, and, FYI, Edward would just bite through Things flesh. Or did you not know that the vampires have adamantium for teeth? (Not literally, but they are supposedly stronger than diamonds in the Twilight verse and unbreakable.)

Afraid not. Would break his little teeth and proceed to be clobbered.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Afraid not. Would break his little teeth and proceed to be clobbered.
Just read it. Steel is like clay to their teeth and their teeth are "unbreakable".

Unless Thing is made of secondary adamantium, he stands no chance against the vampires who are, and I mother ****in' quote, "thousands of time stronger than humans". I'd note that that puts their strength in the same range I have already calculated.


K, so is Master Roshi going to get his out of character and against physics and reason feats? Or are we going to throw those outliers out and go with reasonable feats? If we go reasonable, this thread become a decent match.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Just read it. Steel is like clay to their teeth and their teeth are "unbreakable".

Unless Thing is made of secondary adamantium, he stands no chance against the vampires who are, and I mother ****in' quote, "thousands of time stronger than humans". I'd note that that puts their strength in the same range I have already calculated.


K, so is Master Roshi going to get his out of character and against physics and reason feats? Or are we going to throw those outliers out and go with reasonable feats? If we go reasonable, this thread become a decent match. I really don't care what hyperbolic statements that Meyer uses to describe her vampires.

I threw out the moon-busting.

What other feats fall under that range?

Originally posted by NemeBro
I really don't care what hyperbolic statements that Meyer uses to describe her vampires.

It's okay: you are only going off of the movies. But I don't have to because I read the books (it was painful, at times...but I powered through them). The books are better at explaining the mystical nature of the vampire teeth and werewolf teeth. No surgical steel could do anything to Bella's womb because it was supposed to have turned into something like vampire flesh in hardness. Edward had to bite that shit open to get the baby out to save both the baby and Bella. It was around that moment, or something, that it was explained that the teeth were uber and into the mystical category of durability.

Originally posted by NemeBro
I threw out the moon-busting.

Cool.

Originally posted by NemeBro
What other feats fall under that range?

I honestly don't know. You're the DB expert around here. You tell me what other feats seem out of capability reach of Roshi.

But from what I can remember, his other feats are not that far as outliers. So it should be fine, now.

I haven't watched the movies either. haermm

But yes I know that Edward gives Bella a cesarian section with his teeth. crylaugh

Nothing else falls under that range that I recall.

You know, to be honest, I can't really recall a whole lot of feats of Roshi or characters before him that are that far above Yamamoto, the reaction-time and moon-busting were a decent combination, but without the moon-busting I am actually not sure if Roshi can win this.

Maybe someone who remembers more of Dragonball can help.

What about the Fry-pan mountain feat?

The time it takes to charge a Kamehameha wave gets him dead.

That attack was calced.

I forget what came out. Could look later.

Originally posted by marwash22


Also, on that subject, destroying the moon (a planet) is not even close to being the same thing as killing a person. planet busting feats in DB/Z are accomplished by shooting energy into the body's core which effectively detonates it. All it takes to overcome a kai blast is being stronger than said blast, that's why characters slapped 'em away all the time. planets, as you know, are defenseless.



The "destroy the core argument" was only necessary if the user held back the planet busting attack. Proofs are this was only presented in Freeza Arc and it was stated that Freeza held back. Unless if it was stated when Roshi and Piccolo destroyed the moon or Saiyan Arc-Vegeta was aiming to destroy the planet earth, but it wasn't. I doubt you would use the "destroy the core argument" if it wasn't presented in Freeza Arc as a plot device.


For the topic, if Yamamoto could hit Roshi fast enough before he could fire a Maximum Power Kame Hame Ha, then Yama could win.