Exar Kun vs. Revan

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Mizukage Yoda
How does Exar Kun fare against Revan? In game character frequently said that Revan and Malak paled in comparison to Exar Kun, but recent feats have shown Revan to be very impressive. Who triumphs?

axel_jovan
Does Exar get his amulets?

Mizukage Yoda
Scenario 1: Exar with Amulets
Scenario 2: Without

Stealth Moose
You can't verify Kun without his amulets because once he becomes Sith, he always has them. And they exponentially increase his rage and Force power, which means that if he wishes to spam blasts or unleash Dark Side techniques, he's more likely to breach Revan's infamous resistance than say, a Sith who doesn't benefit from this boost.

So in a Force contest, I lean more towards Kun. In sabers, both are master swordsmen, and as we saw with Ulic neither could claim the advantage, so would this probably be the case here.

Revan's hope is that Kun is too arrogant and allows himself to be outmaneuvered. Then again, when Kun was done toying with Vodo, he obliterated the Jedi duelist in a split second, so I dunno. Kun and Revan could both benefit from a lot more exposure.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
You can't verify Kun without his amulets because once he becomes Sith, he always has them. And they exponentially increase his rage and Force power, which means that if he wishes to spam blasts or unleash Dark Side techniques, he's more likely to breach Revan's infamous resistance than say, a Sith who doesn't benefit from this boost.
I doubt he can breach Revan' infamous resistance. Kun is no Vitiate.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Scenario 1: Exar with Amulets
May go either way. Depends upon who makes smart decisions.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Scenario 2: Without
Revan in my opinion.

In this case, Kun's only chance is in a lightsaber duel. However, Revan is no pushover with a lightsaber either.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I doubt he can breach Revan' infamous resistance. Kun is no Vitiate.

http://s16.postimage.org/lxwxdfyqd/kunspower.jpg
adult image hosting

The emphasis here is on the 'hundreds of thousands of times' that Kun's rage is multiplied, which enables him to unleash powerful energies. This same amulet, both when worn by Kun and Sadow, glows when the Force it used. The implication is that it fuels and amplifies his Force powers. Even if you consider stock Kun as being slightly above average in Force power (which is an extremely conservative position), his power/rage being multiplied exponentially proves a problem for his opponents. Remember, the Dark Side is empowered by rage; we see it in Anakin, we see it in Kun, Malgus, Vitiate, Sidious, and more.

So I find your conviction, in light of the evidence, surprising.



See above. Both are master lightsaber duelist, and since neither is really well represented in live media, the best conclusion we can reach is that it could go either way. Ulic, although a weakling in the Force compared to amulet-amped Kun, was able to stalemate the Dark Lord with incredible natural fencing talent. It's logical to believe that Revan is also incredibly talented in this field; his victory over Malak in extremely unfavorable settings proves this. But there's no neutral bar to measure both parties, and no live action to better analyze their defenses and relative speeds.

As for the Force, Kun has demonstrated being peerless in his own era. Jedi Masters and Knights all fell before him. An ability specifically used to cut off Force users from the Force itself (entitled 'Wall of Light') only serves to push him back and annoy him. His suspension of the Senate and mental domination of the chancellor was incredibly impressive as a casual showing of power, and the way in which he overpowered Vodo's staff (which the old Jedi made 'stronger than a lightsaber' in resistance via the Force itself) speaks either of superior strength, or an application of the Force which can easily overpower others.

And that's not even touching some of the things he did as a mere spirit after centuries and centuries in madness and isolation.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
http://s16.postimage.org/lxwxdfyqd/kunspower.jpg
adult image hosting

The emphasis here is on the 'hundreds of thousands of times' that Kun's rage is multiplied, which enables him to unleash powerful energies. This same amulet, both when worn by Kun and Sadow, glows when the Force it used. The implication is that it fuels and amplifies his Force powers.
Let us consider Nyriss here. She could unleash powerful energies without relying on external objects. Her signature move was deadly enough to destroy 'powerful Force-users with their guard up'. But she failed to destroy Revan and got WTFpwned in response. Doesn't this gives you any hint?

Point is that how effective Kun's energies would be against Revan?

It took a person of DE Sidious' calibre to overwhelm the defenses of Revan (i.e. Vitiate).

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Even if you consider stock Kun as being slightly above average in Force power (which is an extremely conservative position), his power/rage being multiplied exponentially proves a problem for his opponents. Remember, the Dark Side is empowered by rage; we see it in Anakin, we see it in Kun, Malgus, Vitiate, Sidious, and more.
Yes, it does. But you are also forgetting that Revan is not restricted to Jedi code either. He is not a pure light side user. He uses the combination of both aspects of the Force.

Revan could call upon both the Light and Dark sides of the Force simultaneously to gather immense power; the Force in its purest form. In case of Vitiate, Revan did not channel such power against him because he was under his telepathic assault and wanted to break free ASAP.

In case of Kun, Revan would have no trouble in channeling such power against him. Now this would be interesting because the author did not ruled out this possibility.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
So I find your conviction, in light of the evidence, surprising.
As I have told you before; Kun is no Vitiate.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Both are master lightsaber duelist, and since neither is really well represented in live media, the best conclusion we can reach is that it could go either way. Ulic, although a weakling in the Force compared to amulet-amped Kun, was able to stalemate the Dark Lord with incredible natural fencing talent. It's logical to believe that Revan is also incredibly talented in this field; his victory over Malak in extremely unfavorable settings proves this. But there's no neutral bar to measure both parties, and no live action to better analyze their defenses and relative speeds.
Absolutely agreed here. smile

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
As for the Force, Kun has demonstrated being peerless in his own era. Jedi Masters and Knights all fell before him. An ability specifically used to cut off Force users from the Force itself (entitled 'Wall of Light') only serves to push him back and annoy him. His suspension of the Senate and mental domination of the chancellor was incredibly impressive as a casual showing of power, and the way in which he overpowered Vodo's staff (which the old Jedi made 'stronger than a lightsaber' in resistance via the Force itself) speaks either of superior strength, or an application of the Force which can easily overpower others.
It has been pointed out in KOTORCG that had Revan been born during Kun's era; he would have been a model Jedi for this period too. The intended message is vague but powerful; Revan may have been the best in this period too. This is what the authors have established in canonical sources for his original time.

Kun certainly is very dangerous and strong. However, Revan' command of the Force is exceptional too. Meetra' assessment solidifies this assumption as she has faced some very powerful and dangerous Sith Lords herself and survived. However, she failed against Nyriss and.......... You can get the picture now.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
And that's not even touching some of the things he did as a mere spirit after centuries and centuries in madness and isolation.
Yes, he overwhelmed DE Luke. That is certainly impressive.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Let us consider Nyriss here. She could unleash powerful energies without relying on external objects. Her signature move was deadly enough to destroy 'powerful Force-users with their guard up'. But she failed to destroy Revan and got WTFpwned in response. Doesn't this gives you any hint?

Not really. The main reason why this is a concern is because the benchmark for Revan's Force powers chiefly include "overcoming Nyriss' Force lightning". This is extremely impressive. But there's nothing to suggest Nyriss herself is anything more than a Sith Lord of high skill and mastery among Sith, as to say, Kun himself who has the power to exponentially increase his own rage and energy through the amulets. It's a bit of an artificial boost, but it exists nonetheless.

Let's look at it in a simple format:

Nyriss = high level Sith practitioner/master
Kun = above average strength Force user + novice Sith practitioner + amulets which increase his Dark Side connection and power 'hundreds of thousands' of times.

Nyriss != a hundred thousand normal pissed off Kuns. It's difficult to imagine any Force user could match up as well against Kun empowered by his amulets. Again, we assume that his powers are enhanced because the amulet reacts to Force usage, both by Kun and by Sadow in Golden Age of the Sith. The question then becomes "How many Kuns does it take to defeat Revan?" You can't easily answer how much, but you have a great idea of how many he can potentially use... thousands, even to hundreds of thousands which appears to be the threshold of the amulet's boosting powers.

Vitiate is "infinitely more powerful than Nyriss". It stands to reason Kun is similarly well beyond Nyriss' level and very likely to be well beyond Revan's as well, since Revan is unaided.



You should notice that the energy poured from Kun's hands as a result of using the amulet are enough to blow chunks in the walls of the ruin and grow in size as it distances itself from Kun, becoming man-sized and more as it carries on. Whether it's raw kinetic energy or (more likely) concentrated Dark Side energy or both is not easy to claim absolutely. However, the Force storm which Revan absorbs and redirects is noted as being full of "Dark side energy".

Conditional: IF Kun's amulets generate excessive Dark Side energy (which seems entirely reasonable) AND he can use anger to fuel this exponentially (proven) THEN it stands to reason he can simply overcome Revan through superior firepower.



You don't think a buffed up Kun is approaching DE Sidious' 'calibre'? He murders Jedi Masters with a wealth more experience than DE Luke with a gesture or a swipe of his blade, ragdolls Jedi Knights with the Force, eliminates Aleema from the equation with a wave of his hand and stalemates Ulic Qel-Droma, a master swordsman, in a quick duel.

And this is well before he mind****s half of the Jedi Academy in his disembodied form, without the benefit of the amulet since he's a spirit.



But it's debatable what bearing this would have on Kun. He's destroyed both Dark and Light side users with his own brute strength in the Force. Freedan Nadd who as a spirit can heal Kun from death, attack Vodo across the galaxy, and cause cave-ins simply through TK was obliterated the second Kun turned his amulet against him. Aleema, raised as a practitioner in Nadd's legacy, removed from combat with a single blast. Odan-Urr, who pioneered the Wall of Light ability in the Great Hyperspace War (where the Jedi essentially hunted much of the Sith on Korriban and Ziost to extinction) could not harm him and died from a gesture.

Again, what has Revan shown to surpass this? Brilliant charisma? Tactical leadership? The -one- feat against Nyriss? Even his battle against Malak was not one-sided; the Sith Lord engaged Revan in an "epic battle" (Drew K's words), meaning that it was a struggle, not a decimation. Do you really think Malak would hold a candle to Kun?



No, first using both sides of the Force has only ever demonstrated Revan overcoming Nyriss, whose standing against Kun is entirely questionable. Second, Revan attempted the -same- move against Vitiate, who possesses Force energy gleaned from "thousands" or perhaps even "millions", and was swatted about like a fly.

There's no reason to believe that Revan using his Daoism Level 3 Super Combo is going to defeat Kun who can basically manhandle every Force user in his era without breaking in his armor. Hell, it took the entire Jedi Order (thousands) above Yavin IV all channeling energy into a planetary Wall of Light that burnt large parts of the planet, to simply disrupt his ritual and bind him to Yavin IV. They didn't even cut him off from the Force or kill him.



There's an important distinction: Revan notes that the title character is the "champion of the Jedi Order", implying that he's the best Jedi of his era. Meetra calls him the most powerful Force user she's ever witnessed (which is an issue because this somehow includes Nihilus but whatever). He's -up- there, I agree. But in Kun's era, once he becomes DLotS, he has no equals. Unlike Revan who could be overcome by Vitiate, battled hard to defeat a buffed Malak, and did not possess the power to free himself from his own cell on Dromund Kaas, Exar Kun pretty much stomps all over the Jedi Order and calls all the shots from the Sith. Even Nadd, who in his time conquered the Onderon/Dxun society and installed a brutal Dark Side regime and dynasty there, could not lift a finger in his own defense.

Again, why do we assume Revan > Kun?



Exceptional, but unlikely to be exponentially better than even an above average Force user. Again, Kun's amulets put him on a buffed up tier that Revan hasn't shown similar range and abilities. I think in a saber fight, it's impossible to tell who is better; that's a given. But in Force combat? Kun dominates.

Dr McBeefington
I have a problem with "a hundred thousand normal pissed off Kuns". If this wasn't hyperbole, then Kun could have simply enraged with the amulet and at the very least, fought back against the wall of light created by a few thousand jedi. A few hundred thousand pissed off Kuns would be vastly more powerful than Vitiate or DE Sidious. Since the most impressive thing Kun demonstrates is a ritual where he silences the senate, it's hard to take that quote seriously.




Let me stop you right there. No, I don't think a buffed up Kun approaches DE Sidious. He murders masters with a wealth more experience? Wonderful. How many times in the mythos have we seen a fight where the victor is one with less experience? Not too impressive. Eliminating Aleema? She's wonderful.. With her illusions...Against non force sensitives. Stalemating Ulic was probably the most impressive thing in that sentence and even then, we have no idea how quick or how long the duel was.


Please list the number of jedi masters Kun mind ****s in your next post.




There is nothing indicating that Nadd in his spirit form comes close to Kun or anybody else, in full human form. Granted he did do some damage as a spirit, although from dark side planets. The point is, sticking your amulet through a spirit shouldn't be considered impressive on any level. His amulet blasts on aleema are nice, I suppose. His defeat of odan-urr, who was never known to be a combatant, is not impressive. We don't know the properties of the Wall of light, whether they work against superior force users, whether Kun's amulet provides a defense for such an attack, etc.


But it was star forge powered Malak, not regular Malak. It was also Malak powered by the life essences of many jedi.




By swatted like a fly do you mean "knocked the emperor on his ass then foolishly decided to try to catch a force storm with his hands like a drunk buffoon"?


I don't recall any force user in his era showing any kind of impressive combat abilities, unless you count making your stick more powerful than a lightsaber. What does that even mean btw? Is Vodo's stick going to break through a light saber? I don't recall that happening in his fight against Kun. Also, it's very misleading to say that it took the entire jedi order to defeat Kun, rather than how many they decided to use. That's like saying it took every jedi that came before, for Palpatine to finally die, and Brand somehow knowing this detail through some kind of epiphany. You don't know how many jedi it would take to stop Kun, but my guess is "less than 20". Either way, it's not something that can adequately be qualified in this type of argument.




Here's the counter to your argument. Revan's era was simply better. Revan had to also be compared to possibly the greatest force user in the mythos, as well as others from the True Sith Empire. Kun didn't have half the obstacles Revan and his era had. And you're right, Nadd's dark side spirit couldn't do anything when Kun put his amulet through him. Incredibly impressive lol. Not a good comparison.


Assuming the blasts hit Revan, or that they're continuous, or that Revan doesn't mess with Kun's mind ala Vitiate.. Many things have to go right for Kun to win but sure, it's much easier with the amulet.

Stealth Moose
Odd. Why are you challenging me?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I have a problem with "a hundred thousand normal pissed off Kuns". If this wasn't hyperbole, then Kun could have simply enraged with the amulet and at the very least, fought back against the wall of light created by a few thousand jedi. A few hundred thousand pissed off Kuns would be vastly more powerful than Vitiate or DE Sidious. Since the most impressive thing Kun demonstrates is a ritual where he silences the senate, it's hard to take that quote seriously.

Is it hyperbolic? Let's look at it again:

The narration explicitly says Kun can feel his rage multiplying, fill in the blanks times here. He becomes aware that it can focus his "Dark Rage" and he can use it as a weapon.

A similar amulet used by King Ommin has "infinite rage" and overcomes Ulic and Arca Jeth.

I'll humor you. The narration is being hyperbolic. So clearly, when they say Vitiate is "infinitely more powerful than Nyriss", he's just slightly above her. Or maybe a few semesters ahead of her, right?

I mean, after all, it's all hyperbole. Maybe the entire Jedi Order was't there over Yavin IV? Perhaps it was like fifty, but the omniscient third person narrator got confused, right?

So tell me... how am I to quantify Kun's anger/power level without the direct quote from the sole source in which the relationship of Kun's power and the amulet's boosting is referenced?



The point is, Exar Kun overcomes Jedi Masters of repute in his era. Jedi Masters with far more experience and knowledge then DE Luke. DE Luke is a reference point for DE Sidious' power; DE Sidious overcame Luke rather quickly early on, and even later Luke needed help to distract and overcome Sidious in turn. Sidious > Luke by a fair margin, right? Well, Kun > every Force user of his era by a fair margin. That's a reference point.



Thanks for dismissing. I appreciate it.



I never stated Jedi Masters; I said he mind****ed "half of the Academy". Specifically, he had indoctrinated acolytes into his own cult, incinerated a disobedient student, severed Luke from his own body, and it took a combined effort of Luke's spirit, Vodo's spirit, and others to seal him away.

And this is Kun after thousands of years of isolation and madness, and no amulet. So the conclusions are either his knowledge and/or natural strength in the Force was entirely even Luke's, or he's just a chump and everyone in that storyline was of no consequence.



You're glossing over surrounding details - Nadd's power as a spirit is greater than many we've seen in the mythos. Even spirits in TOR don't match his level of power (even Lord Kallig expends power by communicating over long distances and manifesting himself). He is a figure of significant Force strength, even deceased. Before the acquisition of the amulet, Nadd dominated Kun. Led him around, caused the cave-in, healed his body, and attacked Vodo across space. (Real quick - name a spirit who has replicated that last feat)

Kun, once he acquires the amulet and defeats the wyrm, casually turns the amulet on Nadd and destroys him utterly. This is an impressive display of power. Whether or not you feel it has bearing (or you have Revan-bias) is irrelevant.



If you recall the context, she unleashed one on him which he shrugged off, and his (which was nowhere near the size of those he used on the wyrms) knocked her out of the area and unconscious.



Translation: Vodo, although implied to be a master duelist and the saber instructor of the Jedi Order, who taught Exar Kun who himself turned out to be a MASTER SWORDSMAN, must somehow be unknown and therefore immediately of NO CONSEQUENCE.

Did I nail your dismissal down right?



No, we DO know how it works. It was perfected on Sith, the same Sith who may have had access to similar boosting amulets and items (or not. That's not really my point). Against Ulic when used by Nomi (who had never before practiced it), the effect was instantaneous and complete. Against Kun by the founder of and perfecter of the ability, it pushed him back, and ... did nothing else.

Whether or not the amulet helps is irrelevant. Sith Lord Kun -always- has his amulets.



Right, but that's the whole point. If Revan can't manhandle a Star Forge buffed Malak (who is fueled by what? Six to eight Jedi total? Also, to use your argument, UNKNOWN Jedi and therefore of NO CONSEQUENCE), why would I assume he can defeat a Sith Lord who has dominated everyone else in his era with ease and conceivably has his "DARK RAGE" boosted on a level well beyond acceptably high enough to crush normal Force users?

Funny how Revan gets excuses but Kun's accomplishments are dismissed or downplayed.



Yes. Revan did the same maneuver against Nyriss instantly and won. Against Vitiate, who is well beyond Nyriss' level, he was floored. Kun has every reason to be beyond Nyriss' level. His Dark Rage alone, which fuels Dark Side powers like - surprise! - Force Lightning, is exponentially increased. Even if you want to super "help my bias" downplay it to ten, fifteen times, it's still well beyond what an unaided Force user can accomplish.

Hell, look at the Sith Inquisitor. By having what? Three, four spirits in tow, toss Thanaton about like a handball? And Thanaton uses canonically abilities which kill Force users with a gesture? He uses genuine Force storms on the same level as Nyriss? The guy who keeps Tulak Hord's tablets in his library? Apparently, having a boost can really make or break a match.



This really really makes me think that STILL, after all these years you haven't read or reread the comics. I don't come here arguing these out of my ass. I review the comics when the debate comes up. Since you don't "recall" stuff happening, I suggest you go find out instead of going "This is all invalid because it doesn't support my pro-Revan argument, also, lol stick saber".



http://s16.postimage.org/le9gl7li9/Capture.jpg

You were saying?



Wow, that's such a good argument. Wish I had thought of that first.



Compared to the greatest Force user in the mythos? You mean, utterly destroyed at the hands of the greatest Force user in the mythos, who has exponentially more power than any normal Force user? That one? Good comparison, bro!

Also, Kun didn't have any obstacles, because he's that powerful.



Rofl. Mess with Kun's mind ala Vitiate? "I'm going to attack you with a Dark-a-Light side special attack while you're attempting to violate my mind"? That method? Also, man-sized blasts missing Revan? How far away is Revan? In orbit? Kun can apparently spam them while moving to avoid the Sith Wyrm's attacks. Revan's shown extreme proficiency in dodging two spammed lightning bolts after being flattened by TK.

Really, this is your stance? "I like Revan, all your arguments are crap, also random dismissal, lol stick saber"?

Mizukage Yoda
I'm sorry but Vitiate lost the battledome match against ROTS Sidious. He is certainly not on DE Sidious' calibre. Kun isn't on Vitiate's level either.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I'm sorry but Vitiate lost the battledome match against ROTS Sidious. He is certainly not on DE Sidious' calibre. Kun isn't on Vitiate's level either.

Okay, I submit to your greater authority and the authority of the nebulous objective measuring by which you no doubt acquired this knowledge. I acknowledge that RotS Sidious is certainly better than someone who makes Sith Lords who fry people instantly seem inferior, and likewise crushes the champion of the Jedi Order in a direct Force contest without needing to use melee weapons (just like Sidious totally vanquished Yoda without needing to resort to close combat). I fully believe that RotS Sidious is about right where DE Sidious is, including the ability to summon up Force Storms, having about 20+ less years of study of the Force and an older body, and getting disarmed by Mace Windu via a front kick. I also recognize your intentions as totally unbiased against Vitiate and Kun naturally. I'd like to point out at no point have I equated Vitiate; only noted that both Kun and Vitiate are exponentially more powerful than say, Nyriss.

Here's a new drinking game - if you sense sarcasm in my post to you, take a swig. If you're knocked out before it's over, you win.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Meetra calls him the most powerful Force user she's ever witnessed (which is an issue because this somehow includes Nihilus but whatever).

Not that much of an issue imo. Kotor 2 makes it clear that you can't feel Force Wounds well through the Force (absence in the Force yadder yadder), meaning that Meetra isn't in a position to accurately gauge Nihilus' powers.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Eliminating Aleema? She's wonderful.. With her illusions...Against non force sensitives.

IIRC she was able to reduce people to skeletons with Force Blasts, which is pretty powerful.

Herbert Spencer
You've locked yourself in a glass house with Mizukage and DS, so it would probably be in your best interest to not hurl stones. They could very easily make the argument that you're biased in favor of Kun, based on your own post history, in which case this thread devolves into an unending contest of trying to determine whose bias is greater.

Just let it go and make your case.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Odd. Why are you challenging me?
I'm not. I'm not even saying Revan would win in a fight against Kun with amulets (although it's possible). I'm challenging some of your premises regarding Kun's power.




Wouldn't an amulet possessing "infinite range" be able to do more than simply overcome Ulic and Arca?


No, this part also seemed hyperbolic. Then again, it's more believable than an amulet having "infinite rage".


Strange how you're asking me to take the narrator at his word when you intentionally question other sources with the likes of Gideon. Also, please show me where the entire Jedi Order gathered over Yavin IV. I don't think you understand the logistical nightmare specifically involved in gathering an entire jedi council for a strike on a target.


I didn't say I knew how to quantify it, I said the way you quantify it doesn't make much sense.




I understand that but then you used the fact that Kun being #1 in his era as a comparison to Revan having more difficulties being #1 in his. They aren't the same era, and Revan's era appeared a hell of a lot more difficult with more impressive force users, I'm sure you knew that.




Dismissing what? Terrible examples of power? An assumption that a duel was "quick"? In that case, you're welcome.




That was sort of my point. That he couldn't do it to any of the masters. Also, I don't recall it being half the jedi academy, you'd have to show me where it says that. Incinerating a jedi knight is pretty damn impressive though, as well as severing Luke from his own body, although it was using Kyp.


At that point he was vastly superior to Luke. You don't lose your knowledge just because you're a force spirit for thousands of years, you lose your fighting abilities as we've seen with Andeddu.




It's odd considering Nadd wasn't able to do the same when he was in the same room as Arca. Kallig is impressive because it's mentioned that he's responsible for many deaths in the sith temple. Granted, it's a dark side nexus just like korriban but if this spirit actively goes around killing sith for the past thousand years, it's more impressive than what Nadd did. Also, you're propping Kun up on a pedestal because he vanquished Nadd's spirit. You conveniently didn't add the details when all he had to do was put his amulet through the spirit.


The second you throw around the word "bias" as a defense mechanism, you start showing your Kun bias. It may be an impressive display of power by defeating the wyrm, but not vanquishing Kun's spirit.


Yes, that was nice. Although I don't recall if she used an amulet herself.




No, you pretty much engaged in a strawman in a hilarious attempt at sarcasm as a result of my better rebuttal to your weak argument. I didn't say or imply anything of the sort. Of course, you're entitled to your lightsnake-type outbursts.




So you're assuming the founder will automatically be the greatest practitioner of a skill? Also no, we do not know how it works. Nomi displayed greater force strength than Ulic so it's entirely conceivable that it would work on him if she was superior in the force. You also forgot the part where Ulic was slouched over, distracted, crying over his brother.



No, a star forge powered Malak is fueled by the entire space station. This doesn't factor in the X amount of Jedi he's also fueled by. The fact that we can't accurately quantify Malak's power in comparison to Kun's amulet means we can't really use him here. It could be more powerful than Kun or less. But it was an entire space station. Don't discount that.


Funny how they both get excuses, they both get propped up, and both of their accomplishments are dismissed or downplayed. But hey, lets be quick about playing the victim here. You see what you choose to see.




It's amusing that the only bias that has been well established here is yours, but it's amusing when you project it on me. And that wasn't even my point. You conveniently forget to bring context into a debate anytime the lack of it helps you. And then you preach about context.


Sure, but are we familiar with the properties of the force walk? Or are we speculating?

Dr McBeefington
Ah the strawman arguments continue. It's getting a little hard for me to take you seriously when you start throwing emotions around like a girl who just lost her virginity on prom night. Please start posting stuff that actually exists in the debate, not using your own bias to make yourself see something that isn't there.




The fact that the narration says "the combined force of jedi knights" and that it's KUN that says all the jedi? I wasn't aware Kun had an epiphany and knew that it was the entire Jedi council? Or maybe the amulet gave him insane speed counting abilities? Either way, your point proves mine. It's as dumb as claiming that Brand knew all the jedi that came before him would make sure Palpatine's spirit would never come back.




It's slightly better than "Kun was better in his era than Revan in his, therefore it's a testament to his superiority!"




Utterly destroyed because he made a bad judgment call against a superior force user? Yes, Revan sucks!


Or he was that powerful in comparison to the force users of his era, who weren't as impressive as the force users from Revan's era.




The fact that Revan has mind dominating powers and the fact that he was able to counter Vitiate's. Yes, Kun's amulet blasts are so incredible that we've seen him use them all of....Twice.


As opposed to "I like Kun, i'll make up arguments you clearly didn't write, I will rebut them, and I will call you biased in the process!"? Good show.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
You've locked yourself in a glass house with Mizukage and DS, so it would probably be in your best interest to not hurl stones. They could very easily make the argument that you're biased in favor of Kun, based on your own post history, in which case this thread devolves into an unending contest of trying to determine whose bias is greater.

Just let it go and make your case.

Didn't you agree not to bring that up anymore?

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Not really. The main reason why this is a concern is because the benchmark for Revan's Force powers chiefly include "overcoming Nyriss' Force lightning". This is extremely impressive. But there's nothing to suggest Nyriss herself is anything more than a Sith Lord of high skill and mastery among Sith, as to say, Kun himself who has the power to exponentially increase his own rage and energy through the amulets. It's a bit of an artificial boost, but it exists nonetheless.
Nyriss' signature lightning has been described as a swirling storm of pure dark side energy; a deadly power which could destroy even powerful Force-users with ease.

The blasts unleashed by Kun, with aid of amulet, were strong enough to damage stone and kill Massassi on contact. These feats, while being impressive, are against defenseless objects and beings, and do not prove the assumption that the blasts (in question) would be effective against elite Force-users who specialize in countering energy based attacks.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Let's look at it in a simple format:

Nyriss = high level Sith practitioner/master
Kun = above average strength Force user + novice Sith practitioner + amulets which increase his Dark Side connection and power 'hundreds of thousands' of times.

Nyriss != a hundred thousand normal pissed off Kuns. It's difficult to imagine any Force user could match up as well against Kun empowered by his amulets. Again, we assume that his powers are enhanced because the amulet reacts to Force usage, both by Kun and by Sadow in Golden Age of the Sith. The question then becomes "How many Kuns does it take to defeat Revan?" You can't easily answer how much, but you have a great idea of how many he can potentially use... thousands, even to hundreds of thousands which appears to be the threshold of the amulet's boosting powers.
There is a major flaw in your argument; the amulet significantly augments Kun' emotions (i.e. rage). He himself does not becomes a hundred thousand times stronger then his normal physical self.

The amulet grants Kun the capability to perform feats that would be possible through great command of the dark side otherwise.

The amulet provided a shortcut to great power, which otherwise would require years of study of the dark side to accomplish. Ancient Sith Lords had a penchant for these devices. Kun followed similar route.

However, with passage of time; Sith began to reduce their dependency upon the amulets and other devices to gain access to great power. They began to focus on their command of the Force at personal capacity instead.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Vitiate is "infinitely more powerful than Nyriss". It stands to reason Kun is similarly well beyond Nyriss' level and very likely to be well beyond Revan's as well, since Revan is unaided.
Sorry. Kun' case does not seems to be very convincing.

Even Nyriss had superior command of the dark side in comparison to Kun. The latter depended upon amulet to perform great feats of the dark side. But we need a concrete example of effectiveness of Kun's amulet backed blasts against elite Force-users who specialize in countering energy based attacks.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
You should notice that the energy poured from Kun's hands as a result of using the amulet are enough to blow chunks in the walls of the ruin and grow in size as it distances itself from Kun, becoming man-sized and more as it carries on. Whether it's raw kinetic energy or (more likely) concentrated Dark Side energy or both is not easy to claim absolutely. However, the Force storm which Revan absorbs and redirects is noted as being full of "Dark side energy".
Thanks for providing this information. However, it is insufficient for your argument.

Elite Force-users can muster up very effective defenses through the Force. Even a lightsaber strike can be blocked by such defenses. The lightsaber is lethal enough to cut through duracrete and durasteel objects with relative ease.

Therefore, the lightsaber based analogy should give you a hint that you have to establish more convincing evidence of effectiveness of Kun' amulet backed blasts against elite Force-users who specialize in countering energy based attacks.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Conditional: IF Kun's amulets generate excessive Dark Side energy (which seems entirely reasonable) AND he can use anger to fuel this exponentially (proven) THEN it stands to reason he can simply overcome Revan through superior firepower.
See above. Breaching of stone does not proves that those blasts can overcome defenses of elite Force-users who specialize in countering energy based attacks.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
You don't think a buffed up Kun is approaching DE Sidious' 'calibre'?
Yes.

During PT period, Sidious send Yoda to retreat.

During OT period, Sidious stopped Galen.

During DE period, Sidious was on a whole new level.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
He murders Jedi Masters with a wealth more experience than DE Luke with a gesture or a swipe of his blade
Those Jedi Masters were on par with Yoda? I doubt that they were even as good as Dooku.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
ragdolls Jedi Knights with the Force, eliminates Aleema from the equation with a wave of his hand and stalemates Ulic Qel-Droma, a master swordsman, in a quick duel.
Unfortunately, none of the opponents of Kun were on the level of Yoda. Not even close. They would be cannon fodder for DE Sidious.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
And this is well before he mind****s half of the Jedi Academy in his disembodied form, without the benefit of the amulet since he's a spirit.
Kun' spirit is not being considered for this debate.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
But it's debatable what bearing this would have on Kun. He's destroyed both Dark and Light side users with his own brute strength in the Force. Freedan Nadd who as a spirit can heal Kun from death, attack Vodo across the galaxy, and cause cave-ins simply through TK was obliterated the second Kun turned his amulet against him.
Nadd was in spirit form. This is also inadequate example.

No matter how dangerous a spirit is, it can also be contained and destroyed by using certain Force based techniques and devices.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Aleema, raised as a practitioner in Nadd's legacy, removed from combat with a single blast.
Aleema was not an elite Force-user.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Odan-Urr, who pioneered the Wall of Light ability in the Great Hyperspace War (where the Jedi essentially hunted much of the Sith on Korriban and Ziost to extinction) could not harm him and died from a gesture.
Odan-Urr was very old by that time. Exar Kun was at his prime and not an ordinary Force-user. No wonder, Kun succeeded.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Again, what has Revan shown to surpass this? Brilliant charisma? Tactical leadership? The -one- feat against Nyriss? Even his battle against Malak was not one-sided; the Sith Lord engaged Revan in an "epic battle" (Drew K's words), meaning that it was a struggle, not a decimation. Do you really think Malak would hold a candle to Kun?
Revan to Atris: "I've come closer to death than most."

Nyriss alone was strong enough to destroy any prominent opponent of Kun without aid. She tooled Scourge and Jedi Exile simultaneously, my friend. Now should I delve in to the history of both Scourge and Exile to explain to you that how good they each were on individual basis? What are you smoking?

And Malak was heavily prepared for battle on the Star Forge. He made special arrangements to last much longer then he normally would. Malak was 'nearly unstoppable' during that time. It was not a fair contest. Again, what are you smoking?

Even during normal conditions, Malak was no ordinary individual. He became very strong during his reign as the DLOTS. He was strong enough to lead a whole Sith Empire with great efficiency. Do the math.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
No, first using both sides of the Force has only ever demonstrated Revan overcoming Nyriss, whose standing against Kun is entirely questionable.
1. Revan did not used both sides of the Force against Nyriss.

2. Kun have not demonstrated the capability to block overwhelming energy based attacks. Without amulet, Kun stands no chance against her.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Second, Revan attempted the -same- move against Vitiate, who possesses Force energy gleaned from "thousands" or perhaps even "millions", and was swatted about like a fly.
As I have told you before; Vitiate is on a whole new level in comparison to majority of the characters in the Star Wars lore.

Vitiate floored 4 powerful Jedi simultaneously with his FLS. One of them was a 'champion of the light'. Does this gives you any hint?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
There's no reason to believe that Revan using his Daoism Level 3 Super Combo is going to defeat Kun who can basically manhandle every Force user in his era without breaking in his armor.
This is your wishful thinking. Revan not just knows how to counter energy based attacks but can unleash such powers himself.

You first need to establish that Kun can overcome Revan' defenses and withstand his Force powers.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Hell, it took the entire Jedi Order (thousands) above Yavin IV all channeling energy into a planetary Wall of Light that burnt large parts of the planet, to simply disrupt his ritual and bind him to Yavin IV. They didn't even cut him off from the Force or kill him.
Kun stood no chance against such power. He performed a ritual to cheat death and succeeded in doing so. The Wall of Light binded his spirit to Yavin 4 forever. Now, how is this information even relevant to combat situations?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
There's an important distinction: Revan notes that the title character is the "champion of the Jedi Order", implying that he's the best Jedi of his era. Meetra calls him the most powerful Force user she's ever witnessed (which is an issue because this somehow includes Nihilus but whatever). He's -up- there, I agree.
Good.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
But in Kun's era, once he becomes DLotS, he has no equals.
Which is absolutely wrong assumption because Vitiate existed in his time too.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Unlike Revan who could be overcome by Vitiate, battled hard to defeat a buffed Malak,
Revan faced more powerful and dangerous opponents then Kun ever did. Simple.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
and did not possess the power to free himself from his own cell on Dromund Kaas,
Because he was constantly drugged. The Sith were giving him no chance.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Exar Kun pretty much stomps all over the Jedi Order and calls all the shots from the Sith.
He might have been better then most Jedi in his time on individual basis. But Ulic stalemated him.

And Kun was lucky that he never faced Vitiate, otherwise the latter would have made him his b*t*h.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Even Nadd, who in his time conquered the Onderon/Dxun society and installed a brutal Dark Side regime and dynasty there, could not lift a finger in his own defense.
Nadd was a spirit during this time.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Again, why do we assume Revan > Kun?
Because Revan has greater command of the Force, greater experience, and accomplished much more then Kun.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Exceptional, but unlikely to be exponentially better than even an above average Force user.
Again, look at the example of Nyriss. She was among the elite of the Sith and got WTFpwned by Revan. Stop underestimating him.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Again, Kun's amulets put him on a buffed up tier that Revan hasn't shown similar range and abilities. I think in a saber fight, it's impossible to tell who is better; that's a given. But in Force combat? Kun dominates.
Wishful thinking. Covered above.

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Okay, I submit to your greater authority and the authority of the nebulous objective measuring by which you no doubt acquired this knowledge. I acknowledge that RotS Sidious is certainly better than someone who makes Sith Lords who fry people instantly seem inferior, and likewise crushes the champion of the Jedi Order in a direct Force contest without needing to use melee weapons (just like Sidious totally vanquished Yoda without needing to resort to close combat). I fully believe that RotS Sidious is about right where DE Sidious is, including the ability to summon up Force Storms, having about 20+ less years of study of the Force and an older body, and getting disarmed by Mace Windu via a front kick. I also recognize your intentions as totally unbiased against Vitiate and Kun naturally. I'd like to point out at no point have I equated Vitiate; only noted that both Kun and Vitiate are exponentially more powerful than say, Nyriss.

Here's a new drinking game - if you sense sarcasm in my post to you, take a swig. If you're knocked out before it's over, you win.
Most people agreed with my assertion that Sidious would defeat Vitiate in an all out contest but would lose the force contest by a little bit.
Sidious does make Sith Lords who fry people instantly seem inferior.
Lol so somehow not being able to vanquish the greatest master of the light side up to that point with lightning means that Vitiate>Sidious?
How about we play another game, everytime you make an argument with a fallacy in it you take a shot. Maybe it might make your arguments meaningful.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Most people agreed with my assertion that Sidious would defeat Vitiate in an all out contest but would lose the force contest by a little bit.
Sidious does make Sith Lords who fry people instantly seem inferior.
Lol so somehow not being able to vanquish the greatest master of the light side up to that point with lightning means that Vitiate>Sidious?
How about we play another game, everytime you make an argument with a fallacy in it you take a shot. Maybe it might make your arguments meaningful.

Nobody has agreed with anything you've stated. It's the people around you who presented arguments.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Nobody has agreed with anything you've stated. It's the people around you who presented arguments.
Exactly.

@ Mizukage Yoda

Go through the presented information and arguments in the associated thread again. You will notice that several people disagreed with you.

shinkoryu
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD




However, with passage of time; Sith began to reduce their dependency upon the amulets and other devices to gain access to great power. They began to focus on their command of the Force at personal capacity instead.


Don't forget that your previous Vitiate heavily relied on trinkets and rituals far more than Exar kun ever did. Oh right you don't know because you never played the game either.

That and the emperors voice(his full power and mind transfers to any body he wishes) got easily ravaged by an evil entity on voss and his avatar was completely taken over that he was trapped there and needed the emperors wrath(the sith warrior) to kill his avatar to set him free from that asylum.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by shinkoryu
Don't forget that your previous Vitiate heavily relied on trinkets and rituals far more than Exar kun ever did. Oh right you don't know because you never played the game either.
Don't recall Vitiate using trinkets and whether or not he used rituals, he is at the very top of the mythos.


Nothing indicates that it was his full power. Everything indicates it was an extension of his will. If YOU'VE played the game as a sith warrior, you'd know that Baras is trying to convince everyone that he's the new Voice. The voice is obviously a position or title with some benefit, such as the Emperor's extension. If the Emperor's full power and mind were in the Voice, the Dark Council would easily be able to tell if Baras was lying or not. Also, I'm not sure that Sel Makor is any kind of a pushover.

shinkoryu
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

Nothing indicates that it was his full power. Everything indicates it was an extension of his will. If YOU'VE played the game as a sith warrior, you'd know that Baras is trying to convince everyone that he's the new Voice. The voice is obviously a position or title with some benefit, such as the Emperor's extension. If the Emperor's full power and mind were in the Voice, the Dark Council would easily be able to tell if Baras was lying or not. Also, I'm not sure that Sel Makor is any kind of a pushover. Read the codex. It clearly states his powers and mind transfers over.

The thing im trying to point out is that despite Vitiates supremacy over the majority of SW characters, his will and mind is completely over powered by sel makor to the point where he needed his wrath to aid him.

He doesn't simply just "reach out" to his voice, he becomes the very person he puts his mind into. Kind of similar like how Sidious and his clones work. Of course i'd still argue that vitiate was at a great disadvantage seeing how he was trapped there.

As for on topic no, i don't agree Kun would "stomp" on Revan at all. In fact i'd argue that if it was the same strike team that beat Revan down, they would stomp even harder on Kun.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by shinkoryu
Read the codex. It clearly states his powers and mind transfers over.
Wonderful. So apparently you've never played the game either (despite criticizing someone else for not playing it), and you're just taking one quote as the end all be all, without understanding that everything in the game suggests something different.


It's not his will and mind. He makes it clear that he's weakened by his current body and he's only able to overcome Sel Makor if he dies, which Sel Makor won't allow. Since Voss is Sel Makor's domain, it stands to reason that it's more of a testament to the entity's power rather than Vitiate's weakness.


No, he doesn't. The Voice is an example of how Palpatine creates extensions of his will. If the Voice was the full mind and power of the Emperor, there would be no reason for the Dark Council to doubt Baras' claims. Because the Voice happens to be an extension of the Emperor's will, they can't confirm nor deny Baras' claims.

shinkoryu

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by shinkoryu
Sounds more like you didn't play the game considering your constant moaning about how bioware ignores canon etc etc and claiming how BS the game is, and then claiming that an entire party of level 42's couldnt beat Revan and had an easier time with HK.
Wonderful. So now I don't play the game because I don't take the quote as the ultimate authority when there is much more involved in the game? As opposed to you who has no idea what's going on in the game? And what does gameplay have to do with anything? Yes, HK 47 was tougher than Revan because of various factors, does that mean he's more powerful than Revan? LOL@your argument


Your arguments don't stand for the aforementioned reasons.

shinkoryu
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Wonderful. So now I don't play the game because I don't take the quote as the ultimate authority when there is much more involved in the game? As opposed to you who has no idea what's going on in the game? And what does gameplay have to do with anything? Yes, HK 47 was tougher than Revan because of various factors, does that mean he's more powerful than Revan? LOL@your argument And it seems you aren't intelligent enough to realize(funny, seeing how you always point out how unintelligent others are) that i was speaking in the context of gameplay mechanics. How can you LOL@ an argument that was never made roll eyes (sarcastic)?

But its obvious you didn't play the game, virtually nobody has ever stated that Revan was a Harder boss than HK and aren't you one of the more fanatical Revan fanboys? Well that explains why you tried to claim Revan being a hard ass boss even when above level 40 which isn't the case seeing that the whole fight with Revan was basically a tank and spank with no adds or strategy.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

Your arguments don't stand for the aforementioned reasons. Canon and facts > you. The JK beat another voice of the emperor who like the quote stated, had his full mind and powers inside, so yes, you DO lose internet tough guy.


Hell theres plenty of reason to doubt Baras, didn't you realize when one becomes the voice, his voice literally changes to good ol vitiates voice as well? There goes another of your argument down the drain.

Herbert Spencer
Originally posted by Nephthys
Didn't you agree not to bring that up anymore?

wut?

Nephthys
Janus mentioned how much it annoys him when you throw accusations about his past in his face on ROK. I thought you said you'd stop bring it up, though I might be remembering it wrong.

Herbert Spencer
No, Janus said he hated it when I referenced him to other people. Here, I'm speaking to him directly and encouraging everyone involved to not allow this discussion to devolve into hurling accusations of bias.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Most people agreed with my assertion that Sidious would defeat Vitiate in an all out contest but would lose the force contest by a little bit.

This, by the by, is an appeal to the majority and has no logical basis in whether or not your assertion was sound.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by shinkoryu
And it seems you aren't intelligent enough to realize(funny, seeing how you always point out how unintelligent others are) that i was speaking in the context of gameplay mechanics. How can you LOL@ an argument that was never made roll eyes (sarcastic)?
You were casting doubt on my credibility because I stated HK was harder to beat than Revan.


So you're going with "you didn't play the game because other people thought Revan was a harder boss"? Not that I need to argue further with you because the amount of ownage and self ownage is pretty evident here on your part, but I'm sure Janus, who also has played the game, can attest to the fact that not only did I play the game and am currently a level 50, but that HK was harder than Revan. Good try though. So to summarize your entire argument:

http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/340/5/8/facepalm_by_lord_martini-d34cce8.jpg

Herbert Spencer
Jesus H. Christ, resize that pic.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
No, Janus said he hated it when I referenced him to other people. Here, I'm speaking to him directly and encouraging everyone involved to not allow this discussion to devolve into hurling accusations of bias.

Ah.

Herbert Spencer
Originally posted by Nephthys
Ah.

For the record, I think much of Janus's argument is convincing. Though I am inclined to side with DS that the narrative claim that Kun's powers are amplified hundreds of thousands of times is hyperbolic, if only for the fact that that should have enabled him to stop the Jedi outright during their final assault on Yavin.

Nephthys
Yeah, I agree. Though personally I think Kun could probably kick Revans ass, as well as Nyris'. Maybe at the same time. His amulet is just too haxxed.

Dr McBeefington
Still having trouble understanding Exar Kun's superiority on the basis of him being the best in his era while Revan had more competition. Also, if Kun could have used those amulet blasts anytime he wanted, it's logical to assume he could have wasted Ulic and that tree jedi any time he wanted.

Nephthys
Ulic also had an amulet iirc. And given that the tree jedi survived a supernova, it probably wasn't as simple as just blasting him.

Herbert Spencer
Sedriss must be a badass to destroy Ood Bnar (sp?) with lightning if the guy survived a supernova. I forgot all about that.

Dr McBeefington
He's a tree. I'm pretty sure Kun had no idea he'd survive the supernova. It's obvious he can't use the blasts anytime he wants.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
Sedriss must be a badass to destroy Ood Bnar (sp?) with lightning if the guy survived a supernova. I forgot all about that.


Thats what I said! haermm

Herbert Spencer
By the by, I'm proud of you for reigning in the insults and providing thorough arguments. The dark times, it seems, are over.

Dr McBeefington
There's no need to insult Janus, he's a better debater than me. It would look ridiculous to insult him on this platform.

Herbert Spencer
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
There's no need to insult Janus, he's a better debater than me. It would look ridiculous to insult him on this platform.

You insulted Gideon, who is much manlier and straighter and betterer than either you or Janus.

fvck off

uhuh

Dr McBeefington
Gideon is also a rampant homosexual and that I can't abide by.

Herbert Spencer
Gideon can't help it, it's not a choice after all.

You play TOR, nerd.

uhuh

Nephthys
TOR is awesome. You should play too, person Ive never met before today.

Herbert Spencer
Your kindness is most heartwarming, stranger.

TOR is far too potent for my shitstain of a laptop.

Dr McBeefington
Buy a new one, geek.

Herbert Spencer
I lack ze sufficient funds, my son.

shinkoryu
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
You were casting doubt on my credibility because I stated HK was harder to beat than Revan.
Correction, because you claimed Revan was a harder boss than HK, christ learn to read.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

So you're going with "you didn't play the game because other people thought Revan was a harder boss"? Not that I need to argue further with you because the amount of ownage and self ownage is pretty evident here on your part, but I'm sure Janus, who also has played the game, can attest to the fact that not only did I play the game and am currently a level 50, but that HK was harder than Revan. Good try though. So to summarize your entire argument:


Yet this was what you stated :



Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Weak as a boss? We had more trouble with him than HK47. The only reason HK47 was difficult was because of the adds. We played against him as level 40-42 and he was still difficult.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=560440&pagenumber=2

Contradiction much? Talk about swlf ownage, LOL.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by shinkoryu
]Correction, because you claimed Revan was a harder boss than HK, christ learn to read.



Yet this was what you stated :





http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=560440&pagenumber=2

Contradiction much? Talk about swlf ownage, LOL.

Unfortunately for you, there is something called normal mode and then there's something called hard mode. Yup. Another brilliant rebuttal. laughing laughing

shinkoryu
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Unfortunately for you, there is something called normal mode and then there's something called hard mode. Yup. Another brilliant rebuttal. laughing laughing Unfortunately hard modes only avalible at level 50 laughing laughing. Yup, another brilliant rebuttal.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by shinkoryu
Unfortunately hard modes only avalible at level 50 laughing laughing. Yup, another brilliant rebuttal.



http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-BERa808ndhQ/TewvlTKgheI/AAAAAAAAAGw/E9pZKsSxIPg/s1600/swing-miss.jpg

shinkoryu
Ah yet here you stated :

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Weak as a boss? We had more trouble with him than HK47. The only reason HK47 was difficult was because of the adds. We played against him as level 40-42 and he was still difficult.

Wow, its no wonder you're an actual clown in this world.

1. According to you, you claimed Revan was harder than HK even at level 40-42
2. You then claim HK is harder than Revan
3.And then now you say you played that in Hardmode at level 50.
4. In either scenario, Revan was never harder than HK despite your claim.
5. If your pea of a brain fails to accept this fact and that you're wrong(as usual and you never admit it), read step 1-5 again
6. Last but not least, if you're really approaching/or past your 30's and still cant grasp this simple concept, that is already a testament to your already low IQ, your insecurity and your tendancy to "COME AT ME BRO" on the internet as an internet tough guy who claimed he benched 500lbs.

Sounds like one hell of a contradiction to me and the more im convinced you didn't even play the game considering how much you bashed the game ever since its announcement.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by shinkoryu
Ah yet here you stated :



Wow, its no wonder you're an actual clown in this world.

1. According to you, you claimed Revan was harder than HK even at level 40-42
2. You then claim HK is harder than Revan
3.And then now you say you played that in Hardmode at level 50.
4. In either scenario, Revan was never harder than HK despite your claim.
5. If your pea of a brain fails to accept this fact and that you're wrong(as usual and you never admit it), read step 1-5 again

Sounds like one hell of a contradiction to me and the more im convinced you didn't even play the game considering how much you bashed the game ever since its announcement.

Ouch.. Except you (predictably) missed a bunch of things and are now trying to cover your ass from sounding like a baboon.

1. I beat the foundry on normal mode as a level 40-something.
2. I became a level 50 and started doing hard mode, which you acknowledged is only available to level 50s, after forgetting (or more likely, incapable of reading) that I was a level 50.
3. Normal mode=/=hard mode.
4. When you're doing two different types of flashpoints, it's entirely conceivable, even expected, that the bosses won't be the same strength..

Once again.

http://215sports.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/mlb_a_shields_crisp_sq_300.jpg

shinkoryu
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Ouch.. Except you (predictably) missed a bunch of things and are now trying to cover your ass from sounding like a baboon.

1. I beat the foundry on normal mode as a level 40-something.
2. I became a level 50 and started doing hard mode, which you acknowledged is only available to level 50s, after forgetting (or more likely, incapable of reading) that I was a level 50.
3. Normal mode=/=hard mode.
4. When you're doing two different types of flashpoints, it's entirely conceivable, even expected, that the bosses won't be the same strength..

Once again.

Once more Hardmode was never relevant as you stated Revan was Harder than HK which is never the case in normal or hard mode.

If its anyone thats trying to cover their ass, its nobody else but you. In fact you tried derailing the whole argument to cover that exposed backside of yours because apparantly saving face on an internet forum means so much to you.

In fact, read this carefully this time and use what ever redneck genetic material your brain is made of to its maximum potential(not that id expect it to function any further)



No where was ever you claiming to be level 50 and playing the foundry on hardmode ever relevant, you brought that up to try to cover the fact that you were wrong.

If you truly did have difficulty against Revan with a level 40-42 party(considering how much damn easier he was compared to HK), you either must have sucked at your role and have no idea how to properly play a game without getting pwned


or

You didn't actually play the game because i have never seen anyone that bad on a level 37 flashpoint.

By the way, i didn't know i could make baboon like sounds over the INTERNET! Lulz i guess intelligence doesn't run in your family


PS have you tried enrolling for the circus? Your crude and delusional sense of humor is much needed over that.

Nephthys
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Ds0ClujeTG4/TcBNiqjBYNI/AAAAAAAAAT4/PX8BTXIQgR4/s400/CalmDown.jpg

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by shinkoryu
Once more Hardmode was never relevant as you stated Revan was Harder than HK which is never the case in normal or hard mode.

If its anyone thats trying to cover their ass, its nobody else but you. In fact you tried derailing the whole argument to cover that exposed backside of yours because apparantly saving face on an internet forum means so much to you.

In fact, read this carefully this time and use what ever redneck genetic material your brain is made of to its maximum potential(not that id expect it to function any further)



No where was ever you claiming to be level 50 and playing the foundry on hardmode ever relevant, you brought that up to try to cover the fact that you were wrong.

If you truly did have difficulty against Revan with a level 40-42 party(considering how much damn easier he was compared to HK), you either must have sucked at your role and have no idea how to properly play a game without getting pwned


or

You didn't actually play the game because i have never seen anyone that bad on a level 37 flashpoint.

By the way, i didn't know i could make baboon like sounds over the INTERNET! Lulz i guess intelligence doesn't run in your family


PS have you tried enrolling for the circus? Your crude and delusional sense of humor is much needed over that.


And this is why abortion should not only be legal, but encouraged.

shinkoryu
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
And this is why abortion should not only be legal, but encouraged. For liabilities like yourself? Sure! But hey hey hey im going too far with that abortion shit man, i still love you Happy Dance

Dr McBeefington
Ouch. After making me believe you have a hard time grasping the English language, that had to hurt.

shinkoryu
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Ouch. After making me believe you have a hard time grasping the English language, that had to hurt. Its hard to convince you anything brah. Let alone you trying to convince yourself that you're smart when you're not.

Dr McBeefington
Ouch. The words "emotional" and "insecure" come to mind.

shinkoryu
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Ouch. The words "emotional" and "insecure" come to mind. Its good to see you finally realize that about yourself wink

truejedi
Gameplay==Nothing. Hate to waste those last couple pages of impassioned arguments, but it really counts for nada.

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Exactly.

@ Mizukage Yoda

Go through the presented information and arguments in the associated thread again. You will notice that several people disagreed with you.

What part of majority do you boobs not understand?
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Don't recall Vitiate using trinkets and whether or not he used rituals, he is at the very top of the mythos.


Nothing indicates that it was his full power. Everything indicates it was an extension of his will. If YOU'VE played the game as a sith warrior, you'd know that Baras is trying to convince everyone that he's the new Voice. The voice is obviously a position or title with some benefit, such as the Emperor's extension. If the Emperor's full power and mind were in the Voice, the Dark Council would easily be able to tell if Baras was lying or not. Also, I'm not sure that Sel Makor is any kind of a pushover.
The Dark Council should also have been able to detect the lies of Baras. Also considering the Voice of the Emperor has you know the actual voice of the Emperor and sounds exactly like him, the Dark Council should have been able to tell immediately if it was him.
And if we want to use the argument
"The Dark Council would have been able to easily tell if it was the actual Emperor"
That is crap because people would be able to counter with.
"Lord Scourge should have been able to easily sense if the voice wasn't the Emperor"

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by truejedi
Gameplay==Nothing. Hate to waste those last couple pages of impassioned arguments, but it really counts for nada. Thank you. I wanted to see if he would get it..

shinkoryu
Originally posted by truejedi
Gameplay==Nothing. Hate to waste those last couple pages of impassioned arguments, but it really counts for nada. Hate to break it to you but im pointing out the fact that DS is an utter liar, NOT arguing that HK > Revan based on gameplay. Isn't it ironic how hostile you people get when someone doesn't read properly?

Show me where was i arguing that HK > Revan. He is just unintelligent to the point where he keeps bringing up a new argument without finishing the last one to cover his sorry ass.

Eminence
shifty


sad

Herbert Spencer
I WISH TO SEE MORE OF REVAN VS KUN, NOT WHY DS IS A HOMO. Janus and DS, you are expected to resume hostilities immediately....

Stealth Moose
I'm thinking about it...

No wait, TOR is calling. I must go.

Herbert Spencer
NO!

Dr McBeefington
Oh snap, I forgot that through some twisted pseudo logic, I'm a liar. I never beat the foundry, I never reached level 50, and I never played the game!

Nephthys
Well at least you can admit it. Thats the first step towards whatever.

shinkoryu
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Oh snap, I forgot that through some twisted pseudo logic, I'm a liar. I never beat the foundry, I never reached level 50, and I never played the game! Now you understand wink

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Oh snap, I forgot that through some twisted pseudo logic, I'm a liar. I never beat the foundry, I never reached level 50, and I never played the game!

Yeah, that level 50 character you have that I've run with many times certainly does not exist. I hacked the game server to put him on my friends list and doctored all those screenshots I took where he happened to be nearby.

Dr McBeefington
Rofl

Mizukage Yoda
Which server are you on Beefington? Do you have a Republic character?

Dr McBeefington
Sanctum of the Exalted and no.

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Sanctum of the Exalted and no.

The Jedi Consular has some pretty amazing feats too.

Pyron_Knight
Kun vaporizes him with one blast.

More Force Users should be smart like the Legacy-era Sith and Jedi who both commonly use Force bubbles for protection.

Sadly Revan has no bubble and he gets pasted.

Dr McBeefington
Sadly a force bubble is a basic jedi/sith technique that anybody can use, and Exar Kun doesn't go flinging around his amulet blasts at will. You're 0/2.

Nephthys
Revan uses a bubble at 4.19.

j2WmKySOA5w

Also source that any jedi/sith can use it? In Banes era the sith are taught to shield themselves automatically, but other than that....

Pyron_Knight
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Sadly a force bubble is a basic jedi/sith technique that anybody can use, and Exar Kun doesn't go flinging around his amulet blasts at will. You're 0/2.

Unfortunately you have no proof of how strong his Force bubble is. Would you say it can tank a blaster bolt? A nuke? How about the Death Star superlaser?

It has no feats therefore is it unquantifiable and useless here when compared to kun's amulet blasts which do have impressive feats of destruction.

Now Cade Skywalker, who could use the bubble to survive an entire building blowing up while he was inside, that was pretty neat.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Unfortunately you have no proof of how strong his Force bubble is. Would you say it can tank a blaster bolt? A nuke? How about the Death Star superlaser?
I didn't say a force bubble could halt the amulet blasts, I said anybody can use it because it's a basic technique. Reading comprehension ftw.


And have only been used 1 1/2 times..

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