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Takes place on Korriban, flat even terrain. Dooku as of RotS, SI as of the completion of TOR class storyline. Since the SI is a nebulous character personality wise, we will assume that the SI took Dark Side choices and is best known as Darth Nox; we also assume that the SI kept the five spirits under thumb instead of releasing them, reducing his power.

Sith Inquisitor imo. His Force powers are just too dominating.

Dooku wins with moderate difficulty. Tyranus simply has superior dueling feats. Lord Kallig dispatching a Dark Council Member isn't that grand considering what Dooku does to Jedi Council Members on a regular basis.

Dooku MIGHT win a duel but he'd get owned with the force.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Dooku MIGHT win a duel but he'd get owned with the force.
You must be joking. Even Yoda didn't "own" Dooku with the Force. Kallig's feats are TKing a Dark Council Member. Dooku pwnd a Jedi Council Member, and is more than capable of outright destroying the majority of the PT Council with ease.

Yoda is hardly an offensive juggernaut in the Force. In fact I don't think he's ever actually tried to overpower Dooku with the Force. Just blocked his attacks in AotC.

"Anger, fear, aggression! The dark side of The Force are they. ... A Jedi uses The Force for knowledge and defense. Never for attack."- Yoda, Empire Strikes Back.

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Probably because of this.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yoda is hardly an offensive juggernaut in the Force. In fact I don't think he's ever actually tried to overpower Dooku with the Force. Just blocked his attacks in AotC.

He's not an offensive Juggernaut? What about throwing landing crafts at each other, or sending Sidious packing with a Force Push. But he didn't try it against Dooku so that's fair. The Inquisitor's greatest feat is defeating a Dark Council member in fair combat. Dooku has pwned powerful Jedi Masters with flicks of his wrist.

Rofl

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Rofl
Again Dooku has offed people on the level of Kit Fisto and Obi-Wan casually and with minimal effort.

Okay I lied
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSDsllbo9l0&feature=related
Inquisitor rapes Dooku up the arse with the force.

Yeah, I was gonna say.

Good fight. Nos seems to have an advantage in the force but if Dooku pushes for a saber fight I'd give him a definent edge. So I'd say a split.

End-game SI can deflect lightning with his bare hands (see the Kaggath on Corellia) and TK Thanaton like a ragdoll. I don't see Dooku easily forcing the confrontation to a saber battle, but I concede that in close, Dooku likely dominates.

But he has to be -real- quick about it.

Especially given that the SI can telekinetically stop lightsabers.

Well truthfully anyone of not should be able to that. But yes it was an incredible display as he stopped Thanaton's attack and not just some random nobody. However, I would question his ability to do so with Dooku.

You'll have to explain how Dooku has a chance to get in close against this guy./

By running toward him. Now if Nox is smart about it he would likely be able to force or hold Dooku back but if he decides to engage or just shoot lightning....

Darth Nox has shown considerable TK, if Dooku tried to approach him, I could see him getting sent packing.

Mizukage Yoda
Darth Nox has shown considerable TK, if Dooku tried to approach him, I could see him getting sent packing.

Who is Darth Nox and where are his TK feats? Dooku is an enormously talented telekineticist so I'm hesitant to give this guy the nod in that department without ample proof.

Nox is the sith inquisitor.

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
Who is Darth Nox and where are his TK feats? Dooku is an enormously talented telekineticist so I'm hesitant to give this guy the nod in that department without ample proof.

Force choking and blasting a Dark Council member mid force lightning comes to mind. Darth Nox's canonical name is Lord Kallig, the Sith Inquisitor.

I'm lazy, give me time stamps. I skimmed the cutscene Yoda provided and didn't find any badass displays of telekinesis.

I imagine he means casually stopping Thanaton's lightsaber and then forcing him to his knees despite him clearly resisting.

That's in Mizukage's link?

No, its in the final confrontation. The video is at the top of the related videos section in Mizukage's link. Kallig switches to pwning with TK at around 1.20.

I'm underwhelmed, to be honest. At least with respect to Dooku's feats. It took the Inquisitor a full ten seconds to bring Thanaton to his knees and while stopping the lightsaber is rare, I'm not sure under what framework I should find it impressive. It's certainly rare, but I don't see how either feat would outclass Dooku.

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
That's in Mizukage's link?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqgIMp5WJd0
4:37

Well personally I think it demonstrates an utter dominance thats never been seen before. Sure, Yoda can 'kick Ventresses ass' by casually stealing her lightsaber. But I've never seen a powerful Sith Lord be utterly manhandled in that way before whilst actually fighting back. But I agree that in terms of raw power, theres been more devestating displays (Marek for example) and greater lifting feats (Dooku and those pillars). I don't think Kallig demonstrated enough in that scene to own Dooku telekinetically, but imo enough to stop him from engaging him in lightsabers.

But of course, neither you or I have played through the Sith Inquisitor storyline. So who knows what Kallig and Thanaton demonstrate in other scenes.

That's the point. I agree some of it is impressive, but not in a context that involves the good Count.

As far as SWTOR is concerned, I'm currently trying to find where Vitiate is supposedly pwned on Voss.

How powerful is Thanaton alleged to be, by the way?

Found the Voss video. If this is pwned, not impressed. Sure, the Emperor is put on his ass (again) and is mystically bound within the vessel to such an extent that suicide is apparently not an option, but not what I'd expected.

Though there is a reference at 6:10 about the length of the rituals, once again pointing to the accuracy of my assessment of Vitiate.

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
That's the point. I agree some of it is impressive, but not in a context that involves the good Count.

As far as SWTOR is concerned, I'm currently trying to find where Vitiate is supposedly pwned on Voss.

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This?

I guess after being killed here the Emperor gets a new Voice who is promptly killed by the Jedi Knight. Epic Fail.

The Jedi Knight seems to be the most powerful of the classes. Pwning Vitiate on a dark side nexus while exhausted? Who else in the game can compete with that?

You'll have to show examples of Dooku's superiority in the force that would give a better picture of how he's going to handle Nox. Also, the whole Voice thing, again, is an extension of the Emperor's will. Somebody post a picture of Darth Baras' death and listen to the entire thing.

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
The Jedi Knight seems to be the most powerful of the classes. Pwning Vitiate on a dark side nexus while exhausted? Who else in the game can compete with that?

Smuggler, duh.

He can kick you in the nuts!

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
You'll have to show examples of Dooku's superiority in the force that would give a better picture of how he's going to handle Nox. Also, the whole Voice thing, again, is an extension of the Emperor's will. Somebody post a picture of Darth Baras' death and listen to the entire thing.

Its unconfirmed that the being the Knight killed was the Voice.

I didn't say Dooku was superior in the Force, I said that "Nox" stopping a lightsaber and taking ten seconds to drop Thanaton doesn't come close to suggesting he's a superior telekineticist than the Count.



The Codex in front of me (which could be errant) says that the Voice's body is a receptacle for the Emperor's power and consciousness and that to have an audience with him/her is to have an audience with the Emperor himself. That seems to go above and beyond other canonical extensions of one's will, a la Palpatine's Hands and Dark Side Adepts.



I'll see what I can find on youtube.

What part of Baras's death?

The video where the Warrior walks into the dark council chamber, all up until the death.

Yes, but what part and what about it? I'd rather not watch 15 mins of game footage, son. I won't even do it for ME3, let alone this. :/

I watched it. I assume you mean the part about Baras 'asking the Emperor what to do?' Really I don't know what you think that proves.

Your dedication is impressive.

Interesting is the entry on the Dark Temple, where Vitiate and the Jedi Knight battled:



Talk about a home turf advantage, eh?

Didn't help him much.

I am so glad these thoughtful players have uploaded the contents of the Codex for people like myself. It's given me all sorts of fascinating information.

But we knew this from years ago.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
But we knew this from years ago.

yes

But nothing this concrete was ever introduced until now. Now we know that Ragnos's century reign cannot be attributed in any meaningful respect to combat prowess or Force powers, but his keen sense of strategy.

My intuition is truly formidable.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I watched it. I assume you mean the part about Baras 'asking the Emperor what to do?' Really I don't know what you think that proves.

I don't recall the Emperor ever being involved in the conversation. Baras is trying to prove that he's the Emperor's Voice and half of the council believe him while the other don't. Contrast that with an actual Voice on Voss. If the Emperor's full consciousness was transferred into those bodies, there would be no issue from the Dark Council. It would be blatantly obvious, as it was on Voss. The fact that they couldn't make up their mind makes it pretty clear that the Voice isn't as clear cut transfer essence as you're making it out to be.

?
I don't imagine that the Emperor's consciousness is within them at all times, which would explain the mixed reaction to Baras's claim.

What? That's like saying that the Emperor's Hand doesn't always have an extension of the Emperor's Will in it, when we've only seen it happen that way. None of the dark council members at any point were convinced as much as they believed Baras, without any credible proof. The Voice happened to be one individual at any given time, not multiple individuals. If the Emperor fully possessed the individual, his consciousness would be there until it decided to leave, at which point the Voice would be the new body. Therefore, there's nothing really indicating that the Voice was anything more than a title and some measure of extension of the Emperor's Will.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I don't recall the Emperor ever being involved in the conversation. Baras is trying to prove that he's the Emperor's Voice and half of the council believe him while the other don't. Contrast that with an actual Voice on Voss. If the Emperor's full consciousness was transferred into those bodies, there would be no issue from the Dark Council. It would be blatantly obvious, as it was on Voss. The fact that they couldn't make up their mind makes it pretty clear that the Voice isn't as clear cut transfer essence as you're making it out to be.

No, it just means that the Council is ignorant of some aspect of the Voice and how exactly it works.

I mean if, according to you, Lord Scourge can't tell the difference between the man he's guarded for 300 years and who he once fought in battle, and the Voice, why exactly do you assume that the Council can do a better job figuring out who is and isn't the Voice?

Also you're focusing on the wrong thing. The question has never been whether the Emperor's full consciousness is manifested in the Voice, but rather whether his power has. Nothing suggests to me that the Voice is not just as powerful as the Emperor.

And still the fact remains that the only thing declaring the person the Jedi Knight killed to be the Voice rather than the actual Emperor is an in-game e-mail. The truth of the matter has in no way been confirmed.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Therefore, there's nothing really indicating that the Voice was anything more than a title and some measure of extension of the Emperor's Will.

Except the Codex quote that you insist on ignoring.

What I'm suggesting is that the Voice is simply a vessel for the Emperor's power and consciousness, similar to Kira Carsen, not a permanent vehicle for it (which would be the Emperor's own physical body). Thus Baras's claim to the position could be contested if the Emperor weren't possessing him at the time and the Codex's words are preserved.

There's no contradiction, to my knowledge, and canon endures.

Except you choose to follow the material that better suits your goals. Also, notice how the entire dark council ceases to support Baras as soon as the Emperor's Wrath shows up. After all, if Baras was the Emperor's consciousness, then the Wrath wouldn't have shown up calling him an imposter.


It's possible but I don't recall anything ever stating that the Emperor body jumps. In fact, he stated on Voss that he can't transfer into another body until the current one dies. Whether that's part of the process or a result of Sel Makor, I don't know.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I don't recall the Emperor ever being involved in the conversation. Baras is trying to prove that he's the Emperor's Voice and half of the council believe him while the other don't. Contrast that with an actual Voice on Voss. If the Emperor's full consciousness was transferred into those bodies, there would be no issue from the Dark Council. It would be blatantly obvious, as it was on Voss. The fact that they couldn't make up their mind makes it pretty clear that the Voice isn't as clear cut transfer essence as you're making it out to be.
http://www.torhead.com/codex/2WsD667/the-voice-of-the-emperor-warrior

"In fact, to converse with the Emperor's Voice is to have an audience with the Emperor himself, whose power and consciousness have been placed within the Voice's body."
Quoted directly from the ingame codex. The Voice is holds all the power of the Emperor himself.

Beefy is well aware of that quote already.

He just ignores the **** out of it.

Just like Exodus ignores everything surrounding the quote because it would damage his argument.

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At the 0:14 mark, the Voice identifies himself as the Emperor himself, not an intermediary. Vitiate's remark that he will "not repeat" the "oversight" of being released only upon the death of the vessel strongly implies that it's the presence of Sel-Malkor that keeps him bound in such a way.

But either way, the Voice's identification of himself as Vitiate seems to comport itself with the words of the Codex and as Neph points out, there is no contradiction with their reaction to Baras's claims.

It took Yoda about ten seconds to lift a crane. This is the same Yoda who could not be overcome in the Force by Dooku.

Cherrypicking a bit here, aren't we?



Context is truly useful.

First:

The reign of Marka Ragnos might have been short-lived had he not displayed great strategic discipline. Instead of clashing directly with Sith challengers who hungered for his power, he pitted his enemies against each other to weaken and destroy them

This considerably speculative for a Codex entry. Sidious might have conquered the galaxy. Exar Kun might have run rampant through the cosmos. The Rakata might have conquered Korriban. Sure, if Marka Ragnos was dogpiled by the entire Council, he might have died. Same could be said for any Sith Lord.

Second:

Marka Ragnos defeated Simus in direct combat. Simus was the DLotS prior, a renowned magician, and powerful enough in the Force to live for a century as a head. Granted, he's blaster-bait, but Simus was a big deal and Ragnos utterly beat his ass. Furthermore, in order to show how complete his dominance was, Ragnos let him live as an example to others. Clearly, battle prowess and/or tremendous Dark Side strength existed in Ragnos, not just chess mastery.

Third:

TOR also notes that Marka Ragnos competed in a Kaggath, which is a ceremonial "**** the other guy up and wipe out his legacy". This person who was the ire of Ragnos? No one knows who he was. A Kaggath starts with eliminating the opponents' power base, and then challenging them to combat where you destroy them utterly and have their mark on the galaxy removed.

Fourth:

People like Sadow (the same Sadow who made a ship which channels the Force of others and ignites supernovas, an amulet which made Kun from wayward apprentice to premier Sith Lord of his era, and whose brilliance in alchemy is the foundation for many others well after) showed clear submission to Ragnos' spirit at the funeral. This is a guy who betrays his master, Ludo Kressh, and the Council to get what he wants because he has the access and power, but is fearful of Ragnos' ghost.

Fifth:

Odan-Urr feels the Force itself tremble when Ragnos dies. Apparently, because the Force it so happy that a mere strategist is dead. Dejarik players can now rest in peace. Tremendous Force power obviously has nothing to do with it, and combat is not a requirement for DLotS, which is why they have ceremonial combat and carry swords around.

Sixth:

ur so trollin', I just know it. But I humored you out of fun

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
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At the 0:14 mark, the Voice identifies himself as the Emperor himself, not an intermediary. Vitiate's remark that he will "not repeat" the "oversight" of being released only upon the death of the vessel strongly implies that it's the presence of Sel-Malkor that keeps him bound in such a way.

But either way, the Voice's identification of himself as Vitiate seems to comport itself with the words of the Codex and as Neph points out, there is no contradiction with their reaction to Baras's claims.

Of course there is. Unless you're claiming Vitiate can jump in and out randomly and ignoring the fact that the Voice is the Voice until the Emperor chooses a new body, then the council would have had a different reaction to Baras' claim.

Given that a lightsaber and a pillar are of suspiciously similar size, point taken.

excellent



Dooku's inability to defeat Yoda is proof of his inferiority to Nox as a telekineticist... how?



Not at all, son.

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I don't see how stopping a lightsaber and taking ten seconds to bring someone to his knees is more impressive than, say, Dooku lifting those obelisks.



It's the next sentence that I find more interesting: Ragnos avoided direct challenges from his fellow Sith.



Utterly beat his ass? Proof? And no one said that Ragnos wasn't a figure of immense power, merely that the Codex says flat out that his personal power wasn't what kept him in charge.



No one said that Ragnos didn't fight, but that it was his cunning that kept him in power, not his Force powers.



According to The Essential Atlas, the ancient Sith were defined by a cultural reverence for the dead. As you and Nai noted with Dooku and Sidious, submission isn't indicative of inferiority. Or does that somehow not apply to Ragnos?



The Force balances when Palpatine dies. uhuh



Are you asserting that the Force's reaction upon the death of Force users is indicative of their Force power? Because if so,





The reign of all Sith Lords carries with it an element of combat, but it wasn't Palpatine's powers that kept him in charge nor apparently was it Ragnos's.



Good. excellent

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
Not at all, son.

A-Ap44RMzIg

I don't see how stopping a lightsaber and taking ten seconds to bring someone to his knees is more impressive than, say, Dooku lifting those obelisks.

Just a thought, but those obelisks couldn't use the Force to resist him.

Nephthys
Just a thought, but those obelisks couldn't use the Force to resist him.

No, but can you quantify how much Force resistance Nox had to overcome from Thanaton or proof that any was even offered at all?

Ventress was able to redirect Dooku's lightsaber strike with the Force in that same episode which, while not stopping it out right, is a similar feat (with respect to manipulating physical attacks with the Force), yet I wouldn't put her or that feat on par with Dooku or his feats.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Just a thought, but those obelisks couldn't use the Force to resist him.

It could be argued that by this point Thanaton was all but depleted too.

It could be argued that your mum depleted my cock.

>:C

Originally posted by Nephthys
It could be argued that your mum depleted my cock.

>:C

I guess it's time to tell you that I'm not your daddy, that dog beat me over the fence.

That dogs been a better father to me than you ever have anyway.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That dogs been a better father to me than you ever have anyway.

What can I say? I hit it and quit it.

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
No, but can you quantify how much Force resistance Nox had to overcome from Thanaton or proof that any was even offered at all?

Ventress was able to redirect Dooku's lightsaber strike with the Force in that same episode which, while not stopping it out right, is a similar feat (with respect to manipulating physical attacks with the Force), yet I wouldn't put her or that feat on par with Dooku or his feats.

Yeah but to be fair I dnt think Dooku really wanted to kill Ventress. He tried to reason with Sidious about it, and when Ventress challenged him at the end by herself he warned her first "you're no match for me without you're monster."

On top of that Ventress probably just caught Dooku off guard with that deflect.

On the other hand when we see Yoda stop Ventress's lightsabers, that makes it pretty clear that he's light years beyond her in Force Power.

All I want to say is fvck TOR battles.

Ok so I think everyone is forgetting the fact that Darth Nox is not only incredibly strong with the Force but he/she also is insanely skilled with a double bladed lightsaber. Now I think that with that in mind in basic lightsaber combat that they would be fairly evenly matched. Though Darth Nox has the ability to use Force Shroud and come up behind Darth Tyranus. He probably could sense where Nox was but I believe that if he/she used Mind Trap, which probably wouldn't last too long but would still give a huge opening, he/she could hit Tyranus with a Thundering Blast and completely obliterate Tyranus. Though he/she wouldn't even need to go that far since he/she is so overwhelmingly strong with the Force. He/she could very easily hold him still and launch a blast of Force Lightning and incinerate him. It would be a fairly good fight but Darth Nox would easily win, hands down.

Who on earth is this? Sounds like Ant from 2 months ago.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
Ok so I think everyone is forgetting the fact that Darth Nox is not only incredibly strong with the Force but he/she also is insanely skilled with a double bladed lightsaber. Now I think that with that in mind in basic lightsaber combat that they would be fairly evenly matched. Though Darth Nox has the ability to use Force Shroud and come up behind Darth Tyranus. He probably could sense where Nox was but I believe that if he/she used Mind Trap, which probably wouldn't last too long but would still give a huge opening, he/she could hit Tyranus with a Thundering Blast and completely obliterate Tyranus. Though he/she wouldn't even need to go that far since he/she is so overwhelmingly strong with the Force. He/she could very easily hold him still and launch a blast of Force Lightning and incinerate him. It would be a fairly good fight but Darth Nox would easily win, hands down.
Agreed, apprentice. Tell me, what are you thoughts on Lord Revan the Great?

Zith inquizitor iz augmented by ghoztz... Errr hum I'm not gnna to detail the ability provided bu zuch power..... It will take monthz....

Double blade light zaber ezpecialy an experimental dezign = a big weaknezz againzt dooku...

Darth Revan zkill (ztar gorge era) humhumhum.
Take entire yearz to dezcribe.... If only we could think fazter like him...

Dooku easily