Punisher vs Gotham

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Dum Dum Dugan
How would he fair against the crime in Gotham?

Bouboumaster
I think that, ultimatly, the Joker would drop him (if Frank don't kill him first), but I say that Gotham would be a lot safer after him.

He would pepperspray the **** out of most of the Bat-rogue gallery

Dum Dum Dugan
lol Punisher interaction with Joker would be so funny.

YFZ 350
Frank would get things done.

Starscream M
Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
lol Punisher interaction with Joker would be so funny. yeah, but joker would get the last laugh

punisher would prob kill a buncha villains though before he faces joker

Cogito
I wouldn't be terribly surprised if he died after a while. Batman's rogue gallery is often underrated. I do know Arkham would be a lot less populated though.

Uriel005
Joker would die but probably have some sicko joke that kills him after. Two-face would die, as does Bane by rocket launcher. Poison Ivy gets flamethrowered. Black Mask and his men get gunned down. Killer Croc gets a harpoon in the face and depth charges flooding the sewers. Freeze might put up a fight but ultimately takes bullets to the head from a high powered sniper. Clayface probably kills Punisher though.

Flyattractor
I dunno. I wouild think the rogues would change tactic once the big players realize that it aint Batman they have to deal with.
And I don't think Frankie has the brains to deal with some of them.
Penguin for one would run circles round Punny.
And Black Mask just hires Deadshot..
Bang..No more Punisher.

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by Flyattractor
I dunno. I wouild think the rogues would change tactic once the big players realize that it aint Batman they have to deal with.
I dont know man, jason seem to do quite fine when he took over as batman.


Originally posted by Flyattractor
And I don't think Frankie has the brains to deal with some of them.
Penguin for one would run circles round Punny.
And Black Mask just hires Deadshot..
Bang..No more Punisher.

I think you very much underestimate just how smart and tactical punisher is. And he not gunna play games he just gunna track them down and kill them.


How would Penguin runs circles around Punisher?

Deadshot is a poors mans bullseye who Punisher has taken it to and beaten.

JakeTheBank
Frank would ultimately murder a great deal of the criminals in Gotham without hesitation. While he's not a detective, Frank is pretty competent when it comes to investigation work and stringing together tactical plans. Especially when the plan is to maximize causalities.

Parmaniac
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Frank would ultimately murder a great deal of the criminals in Gotham without hesitation. While he's not a detective, Frank is pretty competent when it comes to investigation work and stringing together tactical plans. Especially when the plan is to maximize causalities. The poisened bar incident comes to mind.

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by Parmaniac
The poisened bar incident comes to mind.
Is that when he tricked all the villains to meeting at a bar he had rigged to explode and then blow the hell out of the place?

Parmaniac
Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
Is that when he tricked all the villains to meeting at a bar he had rigged to explode and then blow the hell out of the place? He blew it up? I could have sworn he poisened their drinks, but yeah I'm thinking of that.

Prep-Man
Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan I dont know man, jason seem to do quite fine when he took over as batman. I think you very much underestimate just how smart and tactical punisher is. And he not gunna play games he just gunna track them down and kill them. How would Penguin runs circles around Punisher? Deadshot is a poors mans bullseye who Punisher has taken it to and beaten.

pretty much. i think ivy would crush him as well. many of gothams villains would be toast, but some could take frank.

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by Parmaniac
He blew it up? I could have sworn he poisened their drinks, but yeah I'm thinking of that.
Yea I believe he does and then he shoots rhino with a rocket launcher and unloads on the rest.

Uriel005
During Civil War arc didn't he break into the Baxter Building to get info on the superprison? I think a lot of people underestimate Frank and his resourcefulness. The man is a hardcore ex-special forces operator.

Juntai
Batman's rogues are getting underrated, they aren't just going to hop out and let Frank shoot them. lol. Batman has all the tools to beat his enemies, knows all their powers and psyches inside and out and is often still at negative odds to succeed against them. When other - even powered - superheros have tried to enter Gotham they often find themselves on the wrong end all the same. Although some of them seem corny and average, this is about as close to list villains you get in the mostly non powered bracket. Some heros stay from Gotham because Batman tells them to, others stay away for their own safety. It's a mad house and you can die any time.

Juntai
Originally posted by Uriel005
During Civil War arc didn't he break into the Baxter Building to get info on the superprison? I think a lot of people underestimate Frank and his resourcefulness. The man is a hardcore ex-special forces operator. Not sure why breaking into the Baxter building is still such a respectable feat when we've seen Wolverine, Spiderman, Frank and a number of other heros and villains do it without seemingly terribly much difficulty. Certainly nothing the guy he's attempting to replace in Gotham in this thread wouldn't be able to accomplish with ease.

animale
Frank can do the job if he acts smart and fast.

gogogadgetgo
Punisher does what Batman has been trying to do for years, clean up Gothom.

People act as if the Punhiser would go Batman style and kung fu his enemies when in fact, the Punisher would just unload hundreds of rounds on them.

Penguin, Joker etc, they all get shot dead.

Deadline
Originally posted by Juntai
Not sure why breaking into the Baxter building is still such a respectable feat when we've seen Wolverine, Spiderman, Frank and a number of other heros and villains do it without seemingly terribly much difficulty. Certainly nothing the guy he's attempting to replace in Gotham in this thread wouldn't be able to accomplish with ease.

Don't know if Frank broke into the Baxter building but it was pretty obvious that Wolverine had alot of help, maybe you would like to explain the context of what the other heroes did (might not be a big deal). By the way Wolverine is a top notch assassin.

Frank has also esacped from Castle Doom while under survillance.

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by Deadline
Don't know if Frank broke into the Baxter building but it was pretty obvious that Wolverine had alot of help


No it wasent at all. There was in fact no indication at all that he used help to break into the baxter building. He had help escaping however.






Originally posted by Deadline
, maybe you would like to explain the context of what the other heroes did (might not be a big deal). By the way Wolverine is a top notch assassin.
Agreed. Wolverine breaking in does not some how discredit Punisher doing so.

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by Juntai
Not sure why breaking into the Baxter building is still such a respectable feat when we've seen Wolverine, Spiderman, Frank and a number of other heros and villains do it without seemingly terribly much difficulty.



um Wolverine is one of the stealthiest individuals on marvel earth. So i not sure how using him helps your case at all.

Spiderman never broke into Baxter building unnoticed before.

We gunna need some evidence to back your claims.

Deadline
Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
No it wasent at all. There was in fact no indication at all that he used help to break into the baxter building. He had help escaping however.


Yea but the thing is Wolverine had already been upgraded and was funded by The Hand and Hydra, it was pretty obvious that he would have needed some tech.

SamZED
Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
um Wolverine is one of the stealthiest individuals on marvel earth. So i not sure how using him helps your case at all.

Spiderman never broke into Baxter building unnoticed before.

We gunna need some evidence to back your claims. He's right about Spider-man. Pete even did it on few various occasions. He's also sneaked passed Doom's security on another occasion. He's pretty stealthy. Spider sense helps a lot. Cant give the issue numbers right away but if you want I can look into it.

BlackZero30x
I think Frank could handle almost all of it. Villains like Hush and The Joker would eventually kill him.

Deadline
Meh well I can always go back to the fact that Doom tried to kill him and failed, was hunting him down then Frank lured Doom out. *shrug*

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by SamZED
He's right about Spider-man. Pete even did it on few various occasions. He's also sneaked passed Doom's security on another occasion. He's pretty stealthy. Spider sense helps a lot. Cant give the issue numbers right away but if you want I can look into it.
I recall him breaking in, but I dont recall it going unnotice. I remember them be surprised he broke in but knowing that he did break in. If you could get me the issue number that would be great. I just like to re read it, since I havent read it in a long while.

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by Deadline
Yea but the thing is Wolverine had already been upgraded and was funded by The Hand and Hydra, it was pretty obvious that he would have needed some tech.
Wolverine was not upgraded. Only tech he was seen having is a teleporter. Which he did not use to break in. In fact when he used it, it triggered the alarm system.


Actaully there was no indication at all that he used tech to break in.

Deadline
Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
Wolverine was not upgraded. Only tech he was seen having is a teleporter. Which he did not use to break in. In fact when he used it, it triggered the alarm system.


Actaully there was no indication at all that he used tech to break in.

I don't know mate unless he can phase through walls it could be argued that he used the tech I think I remember him using the invisibility device as well. When I say upgraded I mean he was given tech.

Sorry mate I just checked it Wolverine #22 Gorgon specifically stated that they had given Wolverine upgrades and Wolverine stated his accessories helped him to rework the alarm system. It's obvious he was given tech to help him break in.

Juntai
Thanks Dum Dum and SamZED. smile

And I'm not meaning to discredit it entirely, it's still a feat.. but the more people seem to do it, the less amazing and difficult it seems.

Think of Superman stopping Doomsday, if Wonder Woman, Green Lantern and Aquaman all did it after him, Doomsday would cease to be as amazing as he is. Same applies here.

But the key part of the statement was the final line of my post- that it's nothing Batman couldn't do with an even more casual ease, so I don't see how it helps the case much.

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by Deadline
I don't know mate unless he can phase through walls it could be argued that he used the tech

Based on what? there literally zero evidence that he used tech to break in. So your arguement is that he magically used phasing device he was not shown to have?


Originally posted by Deadline
I think I remember him using the invisibility device as well. When I say upgraded I mean he was given tech.
You are mistaken. He never used an invisibility device.



he did use intangibility device but that was during his agent of shield run and was given to him by shield.

Deadline
Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
Based on what? there literally zero evidence that he used tech to break in. So your arguement is that he magically used phasing device he was not shown to have?



You are mistaken. He never used an invisibility device.



he did use intangibility device but that was during his agent of shield run and was given to him by shield.

read my edit. Hell Gorgon even stated that they had downloaded blueprints into his brain.

Originally posted by Juntai
Thanks Dum Dum and SamZED. smile

And I'm not meaning to discredit it entirely, it's still a feat.. but the more people seem to do it, the less amazing and difficult it seems.

Think of Superman stopping Doomsday, if Wonder Woman, Green Lantern and Aquaman all did it after him, Doomsday would cease to be as amazing as he is. Same applies here.

But the key part of the statement was the final line of my post- that it's nothing Batman couldn't do with an even more casual ease, so I don't see how it helps the case much.

I suspect there are circumstances to these incidents.

Parmaniac
Originally posted by Juntai
Thanks Dum Dum and SamZED. smile

And I'm not meaning to discredit it entirely, it's still a feat.. but the more people seem to do it, the less amazing and difficult it seems. I think the Baxter Building is one of those things that should show how impressive someone is at being stealth, unfortunately if too many perform this feat it gets lame and appears to be mediocre, the Sinister Six after getting written up were also breaking into it.

EDIT: Sorry I have missed the rest of your post my bad lol

Uriel005
Civil war issue 6 I believe. He was doing it to get info on the superprison for the anti reg side. Strode in and out like a boss IIRC. Will dig up scans.

JakeTheBank
The more I think about it, the more I honestly think Frank would do a pretty good job.

The man's definitely not stupid and wouldn't arrive in Gotham and immediately blow people up. Well, maybe a few people. ermm

Anyway, he'd likely do a lot of leg work, investigating the various crime families and super criminals/Arkham inmates, getting a sense of how they work and act. It wouldn't be past Frank to get wormed inside a criminal organization acting like a hitman of sorts before ultimately turning on his would-be employer and sending them straight to hell. He'd also have various informants, both criminals and cops alike. In a way, Frank might elicit more fear than Batman himself can to a few people; most of Batman's enduring foes, while scared of him, know that he has rules he won't break, lines he won't cross. As a new player in town, Frank would be an unknown, dealing death to such a degree that it would be a definite cause for concern.

Hell, the actual Batfamily would be more of a threat to Punisher than the rogues would be, imho.

Juntai
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
The more I think about it, the more I honestly think Frank would do a pretty good job.

The man's definitely not stupid and wouldn't arrive in Gotham and immediately blow people up. Well, maybe a few people. ermm

Anyway, he'd likely do a lot of leg work, investigating the various crime families and super criminals/Arkham inmates, getting a sense of how they work and act. It wouldn't be past Frank to get wormed inside a criminal organization acting like a hitman of sorts before ultimately turning on his would-be employer and sending them straight to hell. He'd also have various informants, both criminals and cops alike. In a way, Frank might elicit more fear than Batman himself can to a few people; most of Batman's enduring foes, while scared of him, know that he has rules he won't break, lines he won't cross. As a new player in town, Frank would be an unknown, dealing death to such a degree that it would be a definite cause for concern.

Hell, the actual Batfamily would be more of a threat to Punisher than the rogues would be, imho. After he does this to one of the families or baddies, like a Riddler or Penguin let's say, then he becomes a player in the game, and the rules change for the bad guys. Remember how pissed Joker was when he thought Batman broke the rules? They wouldn't hesitate to kill then and bring all their resources to bear against him.. I'm not sure Frank survives, though Gotham will be a much different place and it would be a wicked story.

Parmaniac
Originally posted by Juntai
Remember how pissed Joker was when he thought Batman broke the rules? What kind of rules?

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by Deadline
Meh well I can always go back to the fact that Doom tried to kill him and failed, was hunting him down then Frank lured Doom out. *shrug* ... seriously? Again with this?

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by Juntai
After he does this to one of the families or baddies, like a Riddler or Penguin let's say, then he becomes a player in the game, and the rules change for the bad guys. Remember how pissed Joker was when he thought Batman broke the rules? They wouldn't hesitate to kill then and bring all their resources to bear against him.. I'm not sure Frank survives, though Gotham will be a much different place and it would be a wicked story.

I think one of the mastermind types would eventually figure out someone out there wants them dead and would see them removed from the picture, but by the time said plan was put into motion, I think Frank would have either A.) dealt way too much damage to the criminal infrastructure, or B.) Prepared for a long and bloody campaign against psychotics. Frank's horrendously underrated when it comes to getting to people and is often stopped due to plot. Castle nearly killing Osborn and getting frighteningly close to do it during Dark Reign was one such example. It took Sentry's presence to stop him, and even then, Castle did great for being surprised.

All things being equal and people being in character, I really do see Frank planning a long and drawn out war, likely months, if not more, in the waiting as he gets all the intel he needs. Naturally the involvement of Batman complicates this to a great deal, but assuming Batman doesn't interfere and stop Frank - which is doubtful - I really do think that Frank would have cleaned up a lot of the crime bosses/families in Gotham and likely taken out a few of the Arkham inmates, too. To that end, I think Frank's biggest problem is dealing with the Bat himself.

Greg Rucka would likely make this an epic cross over, however unlikely as it would be to happen.

Juntai
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I think one of the mastermind types would eventually figure out someone out there wants them dead and would see them removed from the picture, but by the time said plan was put into motion, I think Frank would have either A.) dealt way too much damage to the criminal infrastructure, or B.) Prepared for a long and bloody campaign against psychotics. Frank's horrendously underrated when it comes to getting to people and is often stopped due to plot. Castle nearly killing Osborn and getting frighteningly close to do it during Dark Reign was one such example. It took Sentry's presence to stop him, and even then, Castle did great for being surprised.

All things being equal and people being in character, I really do see Frank planning a long and drawn out war, likely months, if not more, in the waiting as he gets all the intel he needs. Naturally the involvement of Batman complicates this to a great deal, but assuming Batman doesn't interfere and stop Frank - which is doubtful - I really do think that Frank would have cleaned up a lot of the crime bosses/families in Gotham and likely taken out a few of the Arkham inmates, too. To that end, I think Frank's biggest problem is dealing with the Bat himself.

Greg Rucka would likely make this an epic cross over, however unlikely as it would be to happen. Well, I wasn't including Batman and the Bat Family, because in that case Frank straight up loses. wink

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by Juntai
Well, I wasn't including Batman and the Bat Family, because in that case Frank straight up loses. wink

I agree. Per the OP, I initially assumed it was Frank just dropped into Gotham, but without Batman present to stop him, but upon thinking about it, I'm not sure if that was the intent.

If, however, Batman isn't stopping him or is otherwise indisposed, I'm thinking that outside of the handful bonafide metahumans present in Gotham, a good deal of the criminal element in Gotham is going to get removed with the proper application of bullets. Joker will probably exercise caution once wind gets out of a vigilante killing criminals, assuming that he doesn't let his ego get the better of him and doesn't place himself in a situation where Frank could just blow his face off. Riddler would likely try to similarly lay low after realizing that Frank isn't going to play his games and would rather just kill him. Harvey will likely die regardless.

The real problem kicks in when they begin using civilian casualties to get back at Frank. In which case, it's likely going to escalate into even more mayhem.

Flyattractor
Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
I dont know man, jason seem to do quite fine when he took over as batman.




I think you very much underestimate just how smart and tactical punisher is. And he not gunna play games he just gunna track them down and kill them.


How would Penguin runs circles around Punisher?

Deadshot is a poors mans bullseye who Punisher has taken it to and beaten. Yes. But when Dick took over as Batman. He was doing it AS BATMAN! He used all the years fo training that the BATMAN tought him to use.

And I think the penguin who has been called the NAPOLEON OF CRIME is capable of "running circles" around Punny because he IS GOD DAMN ****ING SMART!
And it has been proven that Cobbelpot knows about about tactics to.
And just because some people think that "HE GONNA SHOOT EM WIT A BIG GUN" is a brilliant tactic I can think of a few who might disagree.

Me being one.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by Flyattractor
Yes. But when Dick took over as Batman. He was doing it AS BATMAN! He used all the years fo training that the BATMAN tought him to use.

And I think the penguin who has been called the NAPOLEON OF CRIME is capable of "running circles" around Punny because he IS GOD DAMN ****ING SMART!
And it has been proven that Cobbelpot knows about about tactics to.
And just because some people think that "HE GONNA SHOOT EM WIT A BIG GUN" is a brilliant tactic I can think of a few who might disagree.

Me being one.

The thing is, Frank is smart, too. Criminally underrated in that department, imo.

He has military training on top of everything else he learned when dealing with Marvel New York and fighting crime across the globe. I wouldn't back Cobblepot against Castle if the two were waging an urban war against one another.

Deadline
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
... seriously? Again with this?


Again with your strawman? Ok got it. However I did state that Kristoff was comparable (but most likely inferior being a clone) to original Doom that was incorrect, but he does seem good enough to give Reed some trouble.

Flyattractor
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
The thing is, Frank is smart, too. Criminally underrated in that department, imo.

He has military training on top of everything else he learned when dealing with Marvel New York and fighting crime across the globe. I wouldn't back Cobblepot against Castle if the two were waging an urban war against one another. I wouldn't bet on cobblepot either if they were doing some kind of silly high noon showdown either.
And I will admit that I havn't read a great deal of Punisher books either but his main tactic seems to be just walk in and shoot everything most of the time.
And other then Jigsaw I can't think if any other Punisher bad guys to really make any kind of referance with to stack up against some of the bat villians.


That and guns don't really seem to get used in gotham all that much when compared to the Punishers.

Deadline
Back to the thread. To be quite honest with you Punisher could do better than Batman, not because hes smarter but because hes more ruthless. None of the villains have got anything that Punisher hasn't faced before. Ultimately Joker is overated and not invinvible, when you got people like Jean Paul Valley psyching him out by taking the piss out of his hairstyle and Barbara and Jason exploiting his weakness (question or affect anything to do with his insanity) Punisher could outsmart him.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by Flyattractor
I wouldn't bet on cobblepot either if they were doing some kind of silly high noon showdown either.
And I will admit that I havn't read a great deal of Punisher books either but his main tactic seems to be just walk in and shoot everything most of the time.
And other then Jigsaw I can't think if any other Punisher bad guys to really make any kind of referance with to stack up against some of the bat villians.


That and guns don't really seem to get used in gotham all that much when compared to the Punishers.

In a one on one confrontation, obviously Cobblepot gets riddled with bulletholes, but even in a campaign consisting of him directing his criminal empire against Frank and Frank alone, I wouldn't bet on him. Castle's too good for that.

He usually shoots up the place if its the best and most straight forward tactic, especially if he's dealing with random gangbangers or thugs. Against hardened enemies such as mafia hitmen or mercs, he has used all sorts of tactics from sniping, sabotaging, guerrilla warfare, demolitions, etc. One such villain to use as a reference point would be Kingpin, whom Frank has taken it to before.

A popular misconception is that Punisher is just a vigilante with guns who shoots people dead. Past the surface, you find out that he's really a highly trained former soldier who's more than capable of holding his own with the best of them.

Deadline
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
In a one on one confrontation, obviously Cobblepot gets riddled with bulletholes, but even in a campaign consisting of him directing his criminal empire against Frank and Frank alone, I wouldn't bet on him. Castle's too good for that.

He usually shoots up the place if its the best and most straight forward tactic, especially if he's dealing with random gangbangers or thugs. Against hardened enemies such as mafia hitmen or mercs, he has used all sorts of tactics from sniping, sabotaging, guerrilla warfare, demolitions, etc. One such villain to use as a reference point would be Kingpin, whom Frank has taken it to before.

A popular misconception is that Punisher is just a vigilante with guns who shoots people dead. Past the surface, you find out that he's really a highly trained former soldier who's more than capable of holding his own with the best of them.

It's not just that see what it said about Punisher in WBF "I make playing dirty look good", also see the comparison of tactics between Cap and Punisher. The vietnam war made him dirty and ruthless (Greg may have retconned it to desert storm ****ing hope not).

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by Deadline
It's not just that see what it said about Punisher in WBF "I make playing dirty look good", also see the comparison of tactics between Cap and Punisher. The vietnam war made him dirty and ruthless (Greg may have retconned it to desert storm ****ing hope not).

Looks like Frank is younger according to the current series. And in one of the flashbacks, it did look like Desert Storm.

Deadline
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Looks like Frank is younger according to the current series. And in one of the flashbacks, it did look like Desert Storm.

Its possible that maybe he fought in Desert Storm as well. If it has been retconned Vietnam was an important part of his origin.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by Deadline
Its possible that maybe he fought in Desert Storm as well. If it has been retconned Vietnam was an important part of his origin.

True. Punisher, like Cap, was/is the product of the times when he was originally conceived. Unlike Cap, however, I think the core of who Frank Castle is as a character, can be shifted to better reflect the current day age. Plus he's never had the nifty plot device "frozen in the arctic" thing going for him. wink

Deadline
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Unlike Cap, however, I think the core of who Frank Castle is as a character, can be shifted to better reflect the current day age.

Um no Vietnam was part of what made him what he was. The whole thing about Vietnam was that it supposed to be pure hell...compare that to Desert Storm, it wasn't even really a war.

Shit just read what Rucka said in an interview the guy retconned his origin.... *sigh* I don't think thats gonna stick.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by Deadline
Meh well I can always go back to the fact that Doom tried to kill him and failed, was hunting him down then Frank lured Doom out. *shrug* Originally posted by OneDumbG0
He sent a Doombot (which was easily dispatched by a machine gun), a single tank, and two jetpack dudes with guns. Punisher escaped via his own jet-pack. And luring out Doom (right after running away from America) isn't what I call an amazing feat. You boil it down and Punisher essentially ran away from Doom and betted on Doom sparing his life, choosing to keep his word and honor, over his pride in losing a bet with Kingpin. Recasting that as if it were Punisher "outsmarting" Doom tactically is absurd.

Deadline
Originally posted by OneDumbG0



1. That wasn't a standard machine gun it's gone through hi-tech exoskeletons before. Eventhough Doombots vary in power let's not assume it's the weakest.

2. There were probably more than two guys, after he killed them Punisher had to hide in woods and Doom talks about his spies who saw what happened. So most likely he had to hide from other assassins in the area.

3. Sure Doom underestimated but Pun was caught in the back foot and still survived.

4. No he defintely did not merely hide. Read the comic again and I don't think I'm going to tell you again. The comic clearly shows that Doom was using tactics to find Punisher he even stated that he was factoring in possibilities, obvoulsy Punisher was using tactics to hide from as well, the fact of the matter is in the end Punisher lured him out.

Pointing out that he betted he would spare his life is silly. It was a tactical gamble that he would survive. Doom, Cap and Reed have all done tactical gambles all of a sudden in this instance it don't mean nothing.

The fact of the matter is Punisher did outsmart Doom, period. But I provided context early in on the debate. My point wasn't that Punisher was smarter than Doom my point is that he was smart enough to pit his wits against him for a relatively short time ie tactical hiding. Fact of the matter Doom was impressed.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Deadline
Back to the thread. To be quite honest with you Punisher could do better than Batman, not because hes smarter but because hes more ruthless. None of the villains have got anything that Punisher hasn't faced before. Ultimately Joker is overated and not invinvible, when you got people like Jean Paul Valley psyching him out by taking the piss out of his hairstyle and Barbara and Jason exploiting his weakness (question or affect anything to do with his insanity) Punisher could outsmart him.

How does any of that apply to Punisher?

Deadline
Originally posted by -Pr-
How does any of that apply to Punisher?

Because hes smart enough to figure out his weakness. Y'know Jean Paul Valley just took the piss out of his hair and Barbara smashed his teeth and that really pissed him off. His hair and his smile express his madness take that away and he gets angry.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by Deadline
No:

1. That wasn't a standard machine gun it's gone through hi-tech exoskeletons before. Eventhough Doombots vary in power let's not assume it's the weakest. Let's not assume it's anything impressive either. After all, you've got Doombots that fight Surfer and you've got Doombots that have been broken apart by human punches. All we know is, this one got destroyed by a machine gun.Originally posted by Deadline
2. There were probably more than two guys, after he killed them Punisher had to hide in woods and Doom talks about his spies who saw what happened. So most likely he had to hide from other assassins in the area.

3. Sure Doom underestimated but Pun was caught in the back foot and still survived. I saw two dudes with jetpacks on-panel. Let me know when you see others.

Doom underestimated Punisher and tried to take him out as if he were a cheap hood. That doesn't detract from either character but let's not make it out to be anything else than what it was. Originally posted by Deadline
4. No he defintely did not merely hide. Read the comic again and I don't think I'm going to tell you again. The comic clearly shows that Doom was using tactic to find Punisher he even stated that he was factoring in possibilities, obvoulsy Punisher was using tactics to hide from as well, the fact of the matter is in the end Punisher lured him out.

Pointing out that he betted he would spare his life is silly. It was a tactical gamble that he would survive. Doom, Cap and Reed have all done tactical gambles all of a sudden in this instance it don't mean nothing. You already noted Punisher hid. He ran to Latveria, even. And blowing up Frank's warehouses strains the creativity and resources of Doom how exactly? Punisher lured him out after seizing a portrait from his old castle while Doom wasn't even in it.

I don't see what's silly about it. That's exactly what happened. Had Doom no honor, he would have just killed Punisher after getting his portrait. Punisher successfuly gambling is just that: successfully gambling. It required no out-thinking or fooling on Frank's part.

srankmissingnin
On specifically the Penguin vs Punisher topic it's important to look at how Batman and Punisher differ in their tactics. Punisher is all about preemptive strikes... alternatively Batman waits until a problem arises before he deals with it. This difference exists because Punisher isn't trying to send criminals to jail, so he doesn't need evidence that Cobblepot is breaking the law again before he acts. Punisher doesn't separate past criminal activities from present ones, and he doesn't care about time served, if he thinks you are a threat, he's coming for you, and that's what he'll do to Cobblepot. Cobblepot doesn't hide around in a secret lair somewhere, he owns property, he has his club, he has "legitimate" business operations that he oversees, he is out in the open for everyone to see. The red tape that Police and Batman have to deal with is of no concern to Frank. Batman can't just beat up Penguin every time he gets out on parole and return him to the police with a note that says "I'm sure he was up to something!"... because they would have nothing to hold him on, but Punisher doesn't give a f@ck about that. Everyone in the city and Police Force knows Cobblepot is dirty, the fact that they might not have anything solid to hold him on, or get a warrant might stop them... but it won't stop Punisher.

Punisher just waits across the street from the Iceberg Casino and snipes Oswald. Done.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
On specifically the Penguin vs Punisher topic it's important to look at how Batman and Punisher differ in their tactics. Punisher is all about preemptive strikes... alternatively Batman waits until a problem arises before he deals with it. This difference exists because Punisher isn't trying to send criminals to jail, so he doesn't need evidence that Cobblepot is breaking the law again before he acts. Punisher doesn't separate past criminal activities from present ones, and he doesn't care about time served, if he thinks you are a threat, he's coming for you, and that's what he'll do to Cobblepot. Cobblepot doesn't hide around in a secret lair somewhere, he owns property, he has his club, he has "legitimate" business operations that he oversees, he is out in the open for everyone to see. The red tape that Police and Batman have to deal with is of no concern to Frank. Batman can't just beat up Penguin every time he gets out on parole and return him to the police with a note that says "I'm sure he was up to something!"... because they would have nothing to hold him on, but Punisher doesn't give a f@ck about that. Everyone in the city and Police Force knows Cobblepot is dirty, the fact that they might not have anything solid to hold him on, or get a warrant might stop them... but it won't stop Punisher.

Punisher just waits across the street from the Iceberg Casino and snipes Oswald. Done.

thumb up

srankmissingnin
Also Punisher's origin isn't traced back to Desert Storm anymore, it was at one point, but I think it is currently supposed to be an "unnamed desert conflict" so they don't have to keep changing his origin every 10 years.

Nietzschean
Originally posted by Juntai
Not sure why breaking into the Baxter building is still such a respectable feat when we've seen Wolverine, Spiderman, Frank and a number of other heros and villains do it without seemingly terribly much difficulty. Certainly nothing the guy he's attempting to replace in Gotham in this thread wouldn't be able to accomplish with ease. did u just lowball the FF security system? mad

srankmissingnin
My view on this is it depends on who Punisher manages to take out in the first couple of weeks before Batman's rogues have time to go to ground and change their modus operandi. The first couple of weeks will be a blood bath, and if Frank manages to take out Riddler and Joker in that time period, he should have much difficulty with the rest of Batman's rogues. If either of those two have time to adapt to the methods of Punisher, then he could be in serious trouble. I think Punisher probably has a run in with Joker early and takes him out... but Riddler? I'm not sure. Would Riddler even be concerned with Punisher? Without Batman around I'm thinking Riddler would be pretty lowkey, without someone to test his wits against he should fly pretty low on the radar... which should leave Riddler as the last criminal standing. If at which time he decides to take Punisher out to cement his rep and has significant time to plan Riddler should be able to take Frank down.

BlackZero30x
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
My view on this is it depends on who Punisher manages to take out in the first couple of weeks before Batman's rogues have time to go to ground and change their modus operandi. The first couple of weeks will be a blood bath, and if Frank manages to take out Riddler and Joker in that time period, he should have much difficulty with the rest of Batman's rogues. If either of those two have time to adapt to the methods of Punisher, then he could be in serious trouble. I think Punisher probably has a run in with Joker early and takes him out... but Riddler? I'm not sure. Would Riddler even be concerned with Punisher? Without Batman around I'm thinking Riddler would be pretty lowkey, without someone to test his wits against he should fly pretty low on the radar... which should leave Riddler as the last criminal standing. If at which time he decides to take Punisher out to cement his rep and has significant time to plan Riddler should be able to take Frank down.

I noticed in Spider-Man Vs Gotham a lot of people seemed to think peter would have lots of trouble with Clayface. How would frank handle him in your opinion?

Also lets say that Hush would catch wind of what frank was doing and wanted to take him out how do you think that fight would go down?

Sin I AM
Originally posted by BlackZero30x
I noticed in Spider-Man Vs Gotham a lot of people seemed to think peter would have lots of trouble with Clayface. How would frank handle him in your opinion?

Also lets say that Hush would catch wind of what frank was doing and wanted to take him out how do you think that fight would go down?


does frank stil have that tech upgrade from various villians

BlackZero30x
I would assume he would keep it all...like Mr. Freeze's gun for example(if thats where you were going. lol) I would think he would hang on to it lol!

Sin I AM
Originally posted by BlackZero30x
I would assume he would keep it all...like Mr. Freeze's gun for example(if thats where you were going. lol) I would think he would hang on to it lol!

no remember when he had various marvel tech...like pumkin bombs and pym particles

BlackZero30x
Originally posted by Sin I AM
no remember when he had various marvel tech...like pumkin bombs and pym particles

haha now I feel stupid. I thought you meant from villain he beat in gotham.

as far as that goes idk OP didn't state.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Deadline
Because hes smart enough to figure out his weakness. Y'know Jean Paul Valley just took the piss out of his hair and Barbara smashed his teeth and that really pissed him off. His hair and his smile express his madness take that away and he gets angry.

How would he figure out his weakness? You're describing very personal, intimate knowledge that doesn't come under the common knowledge rule.

iceman24567
Punisher has go ninja style to stay alive longer

animale
Originally posted by iceman24567
Punisher has go ninja style to stay alive longer
He will,once in Gotham he starts gathering informations before any move.

Uriel005
I just know that the mobs of stormtrooper henches presence will be reduced to a handful. Criminal organizations will be limited to leader/main rogue +1 or 2 henches...

animale
Originally posted by BlackZero30x
I noticed in Spider-Man Vs Gotham a lot of people seemed to think peter would have lots of trouble with Clayface. How would frank handle him in your opinion?

Mmm Spiderman may have problems because he holds on,but if he wants to kill him...
Peter is chemistry nerd.

Deadline
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Also Punisher's origin isn't traced back to Desert Storm anymore, it was at one point, but I think it is currently supposed to be an "unnamed desert conflict" so they don't have to keep changing his origin every 10 years.

Ok but as somebody pointed out hes been ressurected twice, so thats not neccesary. Vietnam was a really cool origin anyway.

Dum Dum Dugan
I believe his original origin has remained. Also isent he back to being in his prime? Thought he got deaged 20 years

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