Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

So who's really 'the most devestatingly powerful foe of darkness the galaxy had ever seen'?

This is the Jedi Knight from the end of the Jedi Knight storyline in Tor after s/he defeats the Emperor(s Voice). PT Yoda, obviously.

How do TOR threads work? Since 99 percent of known information is gameplay are we gauging it by the feats of their defeated foes?

seriously? I feel like "most devastatingly powerful force the darkness had ever known" is pretty conclusive.

No! Not conclusive! Only in Yoda's mind.

Yes, this thread was made to think about that conumdrum. Because the Jedi Knight defeated a Vitiate who had time to prepare for him in an extremely potent dark side nexus with only an astromech to help him. If we automatically bump Yoda over the Knight by virtue of that quote does that mean that Yoda is also more powerful than Vitiate, and therefore Sidious is as well? Does A<B<C?

Also indeed, that quote is written from Yoda's perspective. I personally don't see it as binding.

Power is different to combat level.

Example: Sidious is more powerful than Mace but their combat level is roughly equal. Perhaps Mace is slightly above him in fact.

I think Yoda was also above the Emporer on a purely combat level. Even though he's probably not actually more powerful than him (if you get what Im saying).

Anyway "Most Devastatingly Powerful" clearly refers to Combat level power.

^ I would go with that interpretation.
Force users excell in some areas, while they can be mediocre in some others.
Yoda has an amazing TK and saber skills, Vitiate can mindfvck people and has abilty to cheat death.

Combat-wise I'll put my money on Yoda.


EDIT:
About that quote. I recall that it have been already discussed few times, like in this thread:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t501454.html

And I don't see any conclusive evidence that it is from Yoda's perspective.

Here link to the actual page when the discussion starts:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=501454&pagenumber=4

Again, it is far from obvious it is from Yoda's own musings.

^ Yes I am also not convinced that was in his mind..

The part which was in Yoda's mind was his realisation that he just doesn't have it.

"The most devastatingly powerful foe" was in between comma's to describe "He" as in who "He" is. So I see that as the narrator's description of "He" and then comes the realisation that "He" has come up with.

That's how I read it anyway. In any case as far as In Universe opinions go relating to how powerful Jedi are, I think the opinion of the 1000 year old Master has a lot of credibility to it.

That statement for Yoda represents his perception. It is similar to case of Revan. Both Yoda and Revan were convinced that they were the best; though they certainly have feats to support their perceptions. And we have canonical sources to affirm this.

However, it is unwise to assume that Yoda is the strongest Jedi after Luke. Their is no definite answer. Revan, Satele Shan, and this Jedi Knight are also among the greatest warriors. All of these have played the role of the 'champion of light' like Yoda.

I doubt that Yoda can handle Vitiate. The latter is very aggressive and has demonstrated much greater skill and power then (ROTS) Sidious during combat situations.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Most of the RotS novel is written in Third-person limited narration.



Its certainly not "most" of the novel. The style of the ROTS novel is that it goes back and forth between the narrator and third person narration. Il prove this when I get home and get my ROTS novel out.

Here is the statement:

Finally, he saw the truth.

This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known . . . just didn't have it.

This statement indicates the thought of Yoda.

^ So Yoda considers himself "the Avatar of Light" and "Supreme Master"

That's supreme arrogance. The same arrogance he was accusing a lot of the Jedi of falling into in AOTC. That's pretty unlikely.

The truth he saw was: "that he... just didn't have it."

Everything in between was the narrator's description of who "he" is.

Really?????http://gbielin.info/g.gif

"This is Obi-Wan Kenobi:

A phenomenal pilot who doesn't like to fly. A devastating warrior who'd rather not fight. A negotiator without peer who frankly prefers to sit alone in a quiet cave and meditate."

^ Theres no way that is 3rd person narrative unless you're really telling me Obi-Wan thinks of himself as a devastating warrior, phenomenal piolt and a negotiator without peer!

We know he's wayyy to humble to have such a high opinion of himself. It continues:

"Jedi Master. General in the Grand Army of the Republic. Member of the Jedi Council. And yet, inside, he feels like he's none of these things."

^ He inside feels like None of these things! So theres no way the devastating warrior, phenomenal pilot and negotiator without peer are his thoughts, or his over arrogant opinion of himself! Its the narrator talking, and its the narrator telling us who and what Obi-Wan is.

We have further proof on the next page:

" Though HE DOES NOT KNOW IT, his relationship with Anakin has molded him into the great Jedi Qui-Gon always said he might someday be.

IT IS CHARACTERISTIC OF OBI-WAN THAT HE IS ENTIRELY UNAWARE OF THIS."

^ He does not know it, and he is entirely unaware of this.. So clearly this whole description is not 3rd person narrative. Further on more proof of his humbleness:

"Being named to the Council came as a complete surprise; even now, he is sometimes astonished by the faith the Jedi Council has in his abilities, and the credit they give to his wisdom."

So this further proves the devastating warrior, phenomenal pilot and negotiator without peer are certainly not Obi-Wan's thoughts, The whole passage was clearly not 3rd person narrative, and kind of proves false this idea that most or all of the ROTS novel is in the 3rd person narrative.

If we know the "This is Obi-Wan Kenobi" is the narrator talking, then we can pretty much assume the "This is Anakin Skywalker," and "This is Count Dooku" passages were also the narrator talking and not 3rd person narrative.

And so im willing to bet that the description of Yoda as the Most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness has ever known, of Mace having Unmatched Lightsaber skills and of Agen Kolar and crewe being some of the best swordsmen in history are all facts about these characters being stated by the Narrator, and NOT 3rd person Narrative..

Apart from where it specifies "he knew", "his thoughts", "his realisation", or where we get a direct quote from their mind e.g. "Dooku felt himself blanch. Where had this come from?"

Only those are the 3rd person narratives in this novel at least.

I said most, not all. You posted snippets from a single chapter, the opening narration chapter. The rest of the novel is not like that. Check out the Dooku fight and how it switched between different perspectives, going from Dooku to Anakin. The novel is mostly written in 3rd person limited.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I said most, not all.

This sounded like you meant the whole book is like that:


Originally posted by Nephthys
The RotS novel is written in the same way, the chapters always follow a single character and are based from their perceptions.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You posted snippets from a single chapter, the opening narration chapter. The rest of the novel is not like that.

Like I said we can pretty much assume the "This is Anakin Skywalker" and "This is Count Dooku" follow the same narrative style.

And Im not sure I agree the whole rest of the novel is 3rd person narrative. I think its kind of clear when we are in the characters mind like the direct quote I posted of Dooku during the Obi-Wan/ Skywalker fight: "Dooku's felt himself blanch. Where had this come from?"

Originally posted by Nephthys
Check out the Dooku fight and how it switched between different perspectives, going from Dooku to Anakin. The novel is mostly written in 3rd person limited.

It switched from 3rd person narratives and back to the author as well. It really seems to me all the descriptions of characters were like Obi-Wan's.

I agree a lot of the novel is in the 3rd person narrative, but I feel like its quite clear when we are in a character's head like this:

"In that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do.
Decide.
So he does.
He decides to win."

Throughout the novel(even after the opening narration) there are clear instances of author narration. For instance:

Chapter 14 Free fall in the Dark:

"A chill wind scoured the Chancellor's private landing deck at the Senate Office Building. Anakin stood wrapped in his cloak, chin to his chest, staring down at the deck below his feet. He didn't feel the chill, or the wind."

^ So whom was the 3rd person narrator here? Anakin? He noticed a chill wind which he didn't even feel? Of course not. I can point out more, because they are not difficlut to find.

Point being the narrative style of the novel is clearly to switch between author and 3rd person. And its usually quite clear when the 3rd person narrative is being used like Iv already pointed out.

So people who argue that the "most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness has ever known" quote is a 3rd person narrative are free to interpret it as that, but will need better reasoning than "because most the novel is like that."

Imo it was an author narrative description of the character, of who "he" is like the Obi-Wan description at the beginning of the novel. The third person narrative was the realisation that "he" had.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
This sounded like you meant the whole book is like that:

But before then I said that 'Most of the RotS novel'.





Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Like I said we can pretty much assume the "This is Anakin Skywalker" and "This is Count Dooku" follow the same narrative style.

And Im not sure I agree the whole rest of the novel is 3rd person narrative. I think its kind of clear when we are in the characters mind like the direct quote I posted of Dooku during the Obi-Wan/ Skywalker fight: "Dooku's felt himself blanch. Where had this come from?"

3rd person limited narration is a lot more subtle than directly stating that its from the characters perspective. At no point in Harry Potter does Rowling make a point of specifying the text is from his perspective, it just is. You are correct with that last quote, the way to tell 3rd person limited is if we have sentences like 'Dooku felt himself' and we only ever have Dooku's side of the exchange in the text up till it switches perspectives..

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It switched from 3rd person narratives and back to the author as well. It really seems to me all the descriptions of characters were like Obi-Wan's.

I agree a lot of the novel is in the 3rd person narrative, but I feel like its quite clear when we are in a character's head like this:

"In that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do.
Decide.
So he does.
He decides to win."

This will be alot less complicated if we just read the actual part in question.

'There came a turning point in the clash of the light against the dark.

It did not come from a flash of lightning or slash of energy blade, though there were these in plenty; it did not come from a flying kick or a surgically precise punch, though these were traded, too.

It came as the battle shifted from the holding office to the great Chancellor's Podium; it came as the hydraulic lift beneath the Podium raised it on its tower of durasteel a hundred meters and more, so that it became a laserpoint of battle flaring at the focus of the vast emptiness of the Senate Arena; it came as the Force and the podium's controls ripped delegation pods free of the curving walls and made of them hammers, battering rams, catapult stones crashing and crushing against each other in a rolling thunder-roar that echoed the Senate's cheers for the galaxy's new Emperor.

It came when the avatar of light resolved into the lineage of the Jedi; when the lineage of the Jedi refined into one single Jedi.

It came when Yoda found himself alone against the dark.

In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force.

Finally, he saw the truth.

This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known... just-didn't-have it.

He'd never had it. He had lost before he started.

He had lost before he was born.

The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

They had become new.

While the Jedi-The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war.

The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter his light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark, when war itself had become the dark's own weapon?

He knew, at that instant, that this insight held the hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, that hope would die with him. Hmmm, Yoda thought. A problem this is . . .'


In my opinion this is definately written in 3rd person limited narration. The entire passage is concerned with Yoda's thought process and includes Yoda's direct thoughts upon this realisation. The part I highlighted is a triple reinforcement of Yoda's perspective being dominant.

wait, Vitiate isn't more powerful than Sidious. that's ridiculous. he was going to be beaten by only Revan and the Exile before Scourge's interference. Not exactly a super-formidable team...

Originally posted by truejedi
wait, Vitiate isn't more powerful than Sidious. that's ridiculous. he was going to be beaten by only Revan and the Exile before Scourge's interference. Not exactly a super-formidable team...

No sweeping generalizations here.

Would Revan and the Exile be able to defeat Sidious? mmm

Hmm... Probably not, IMO. In the book the Exile wasn't impressive and I could see her getting blitzed just as Sidious blitzed the three stooges that accompanied Mace. Revan would likely give him hell though.

Originally posted by Nephthys


It came when the avatar of light resolved into the lineage of the Jedi; when the lineage of the Jedi refined into one single Jedi.

It came when Yoda found himself alone against the dark.

In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force.

Finally, he saw the truth.

This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known... just-didn't-have it.


I see your point and it makes sense. The only thing I would point out is before we are told Yoda's truth, it seems to me the narrator has already described him as "the Avatar of Light" right above the part you've highlighted.

Which is why I think when we are told again "The Avatar of Light. Supreme Master of the Jedi.." e.t.c it seems to me to be going back to the author narrative to describe who "he" is. Then back to the 3rd person narrative to discuss the realisation "he" has had.

Because I still find it extremely hard to believe that Yoda considers himself "The Avatar of Light," and "Supreme Master of the Jedi."

Its just too arrogant a thought for him to have about himself, thereby diqualifying him as the Avatar of Light imo.

Mace's or Obi-Wan's more humble opinions of themselves would better qualify them as the Avatar of Light if that is the case.

Originally posted by ares834
Hmm... Probably not, IMO. In the book the Exile wasn't impressive and I could see her getting blitzed just as Sidious blitzed the three stooges that accompanied Mace. Revan would likely give him hell though.

Seeing as Revan couldn't do shit to the Sith Emperor I'm going with Sids.

Sidious would rip Revan a new ******* with a lightsaber alone, the force too would lean heavily in his favor.
As for this fight. Yoda takes this, he is the superior saber and force combatant. Yoda sent the most powerful lord of the Sith in history packing with a single Force Push. When has the JK ever displayed that sort of offensive TK

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I see your point and it makes sense. The only thing I would point out is before we are told Yoda's truth, it seems to me the narrator has already described him as "the Avatar of Light" right above the part you've highlighted.

Which is why I think when we are told again "The Avatar of Light. Supreme Master of the Jedi.." e.t.c it seems to me to be going back to the author narrative to describe who "he" is. Then back to the 3rd person narrative to discuss the realisation "he" has had.

Because I still find it extremely hard to believe that Yoda considers himself "The Avatar of Light," and "Supreme Master of the Jedi."

Its just too arrogant a thought for him to have about himself, thereby diqualifying him as the Avatar of Light imo.

Mace's or Obi-Wan's more humble opinions of themselves would better qualify them as the Avatar of Light if that is the case.

Its fine if you don't believe it just out of personal opinion, as long as you realise that thats just personal opinion. And you're wrong about Yoda being 'too humble' to consider himself the supreme master of the Jedi, simply because that is what he factually is. Yoda was the Grandmaster of the Jedi Order for quite some time, so clearly he does consider himself to be, frankly, the 'best' Jedi alive if he feels he's up to the task of leading them.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't think anyone would argue that they were the most powerful practitioners of the Light and Dark sides at that time. Unfortunately your quote provides no context. Are they the most powerful in all history? Because that seems to be what you're implying. Of course if you think that Leland Chee's (whose job is solely concerned with continuity) quote is binding then I guess Sidious and Yoda are the greatest practicioners of the Light and Dark in any era forevers. Luke? Pfft, **** manipulating a black hole, Leland Chee says Yoda's teh strongest ever. Abeloth vapes an entire city in a fit of rage and is stated to be 12 times as strong as Luke? Nope, Sidious is Numero Uno! :sarcasm:
No they are the most powerful up to that point. That is what I am arguing.


Oh I disagree, Yoda being able to match the most powerful Sith Lord in history blow for blow is damned impressive. As is being to catch and redirect his lightning.



Wookiepedia isn't the official stance on canon, Chee is. Yoda being the most powerful Jedi up to that point is pretty much canon. The only thing the JK would have on him would be swordsmanship and honestly even that is up in the air. Yoda is the singular greatest duelist in the "Golden Age of the Jedi Order". Great enough to send duelists like Dooku fleeing.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No they are the most powerful up to that point. That is what I am arguing.


Oh I disagree, Yoda being able to match the most powerful Sith Lord in history blow for blow is damned impressive. As is being to catch and redirect his lightning.



Wookiepedia isn't the official stance on canon, Chee is. Yoda being the most powerful Jedi up to that point is pretty much canon. The only thing the JK would have on him would be swordsmanship and honestly even that is up in the air. Yoda is the singular greatest duelist in the "Golden Age of the Jedi Order". Great enough to send duelists like Dooku fleeing.






http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e29/steph0165/gay-called-its-for-you.jpg

Ah, finally. I've been waiting for that call for hours!

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No they are the most powerful up to that point. That is what I am arguing.

Where does it say that? All it says is that they were 'the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides'. It mentions nothing about whether it was up to that point, in all of history, or just at that time.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Oh I disagree, Yoda being able to match the most powerful Sith Lord in history blow for blow is damned impressive. As is being to catch and redirect his lightning.

I remember Yoda having his lightsaber knocked out of his hand and himself getting blown backwards when he tries that actually. :O

Whereas the Jedi Knight was able to block Vitiates Lightning, which is arguably more powerful and deadly than RotS Sidious'.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Wookiepedia isn't the official stance on canon, Chee is.

I didn't quote Wookiepedia as saying anything about canon. Only about what Chee's job is. Are you saying that he isn't the 'Continuity Database Administrator'? Because if so, what is his job out of curiousity?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Ah, finally. I've been waiting for that call for hours!

I thought that ship already sailed?

I don't know what you're talking about. awewut

Rawfle mayo.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its fine if you don't believe it just out of personal opinion, as long as you realise that thats just personal opinion.

The quote is up for debate. But I can sense you dnt consider your opinion as fallible, only mine

Originally posted by Nephthys
And you're wrong about Yoda being 'too humble' to consider himself the supreme master of the Jedi, simply because that is what he factually is. Yoda was the Grandmaster of the Jedi Order for quite some time, so clearly he does consider himself to be, frankly, the 'best' Jedi alive if he feels he's up to the task of leading them.

Well being Master of the Jedi order is factual enough. But Calling himself "Supreme" Master is just adding arrogance to the table.

And what about "The Avatar of Light" which is the main point I was making. You consider that a fact as well. Because if Yoda thinks of himself as such, that would automatically disqualify him as such imo.

The true Avatar of Light would be someone more humble like Mace or Obi-Wan if that is the case.

Originally posted by Nephthys



Unfortunately Sidious isn't in this thread.



Yes but when we are told by canon sources that he is the most powerful sith lord in history, and we have seen how well Yoda stood up to him in an all out fight, sabers and force fight, then that kind of brings more validity to the statement that Yoda was also the most powerful in the history of the jedi up until that point.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Where does it say that? All it says is that they were 'the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides'. It mentions nothing about whether it was up to that point, in all of history, or just at that time.
A fair point. However all the facts on the plate point to Yoda being more powerful:
* Fighting on par with the most powerful Sith Lord in history.
* Being Grand Master of the Jedi Order during its golden age.
* The ROTS novel quote.
* Achieved Mastery of all VII forms of lightsaber combat sans Vaapad variant of Juyo.
* Sending Darth Sidious himself packing with a Force Push.
* Even the arrogant Darth Sidious, knew that it was a very good possibility that he could have lost to Yoda, and opted to retreat.
* Called by source material to be the most devastating foe darkness has ever known.
The Jedi Knight:
* Champion of the Light of his era
* Defeated Vitiate, but granted Meetra and Revan could have done the same.
* Able to resist the Emperor's Mental dominations.
* Capable of blocking the Emperor's lightning with his lightsaber.


Screen play says Yoda blocks some of his lightning before. And he doesn't lose that match up. Or did you miss Sidious groaning in agony? They were both blown back.


Arguably is operative here. From what I've seen Vitiate's charged lightning is what could even be argued to be more powerful than Sidious'. However that is never seen being used against the JK character. His non-charged lightning was being batted aside, dodged and outright redirected right back onto the Emperor by Revan.
Also Sidious' lightning almost made Mace Windu eat his own saber, killed Darth Plagueis, and was capable of incinerating legions of Stormtroopers. When has Vitiate's non-charged ever demonstrated the same?
Even better yet was even someone like Galen Marek was canonically "no match for the power of Darth Sidious". And yet his lightning could topple AT-ATs, and vaporize storm troopers.



No I am not, but Continuity Database Administrator is charged with keeping the SW universe in order.
In Lightsabers and the force Yoda seems to be superior.
The Knights only advantage being his physical strength (arguable)
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e29/steph0165/gay-called-its-for-you.jpg

Hmm the fact that you have that image ready, and your constant homophobic remarks, I'd wager you are a gay yourself.
whistling1

Oh look, an "I know you are but what am I" rebuttal!

Oh look another "I cant argue with that so instead will win the debate by implying that you are gay" response.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Sidious would rip Revan a new ******* with a lightsaber alone, the force too would lean heavily in his favor.
ROTS Sidious? No.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
As for this fight. Yoda takes this, he is the superior saber and force combatant. Yoda sent the most powerful lord of the Sith in history packing with a single Force Push.
Mace knocked out the same Sith Lord with a kick. Get the memo?

Sidious is not untouchable or invincible. Not even close.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
When has the JK ever displayed that sort of offensive TK
Because we play as JK. We don't know JK's true abilities but he or she is certainly a Champion of Light.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Debating that quote is meaningless considering this quote from the inventor of canon himself Leland Chee
"Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chambers, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two entered into a spectacular duel -- a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides. The Emperor proved too powerful to defeat. Though Yoda held his own for much of the duel, in the end, the Sith bested him. He realized that directly confronting the Sith would be doomed to failure. Defeated, Yoda slinked away into the shadows of the Senate chamber's cavernous depths, leaping into a waiting getaway speeder piloted by Bail Organa."

“Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.”(The New Essential Chronology, page 84 )

Meaning Sidious as of ROTS was the most powerful Sith Lord in history.
All of these sources are old. TOR did not existed then.

Some Star Wars authors assume that Yoda is the strongest Jedi. Even stronger then Luke at his prime. Want to accept this?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The quote is up for debate. But I can sense you dnt consider your opinion as fallible, only mine

Apologies, it seemed like your argement was that you just didn't think Yoda was arrogant enough to consider himself the Avatar of Light.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well being Master of the Jedi order is factual enough. But Calling himself "Supreme" Master is just adding arrogance to the table.

And what about "The Avatar of Light" which is the main point I was making. You consider that a fact as well. Because if Yoda thinks of himself as such, that would automatically disqualify him as such imo.

The true Avatar of Light would be someone more humble like Mace or Obi-Wan if that is the case.

Erm, what? Since when was being humble the defining characteristic of being an 'Avatar of Light?' I wasn't even aware that was a real thing instead of just a fanciful phrase.

However, at that point Yoda essentially was the 'Avatar of Light' considering that all the other Jedi were dead (to his knowledge) and that between he and Obi-Wan he represented the greater part of the Lightside. He was stronger with the Force and the Lightside than Obi-Wan and was his superior in the Order.

Anyway, the 'Avatar of Light' is not the really, really important part of that passage. That would be were Yoda says he's the most powerful foe of darkness ever, which people see as being part of an omniscient narration and thus making Yoda canonally >>>> Most everyone in the mythos. Though even then since the Knight can be Darkside that might not apply to him anyway.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yes but when we are told by canon sources that he is the most powerful sith lord in history, and we have seen how well Yoda stood up to him in an all out fight, sabers and force fight, then that kind of brings more validity to the statement that Yoda was also the most powerful in the history of the jedi up until that point.

It doesn't make Yoda automatically superior to the Jedi Knight. Despite how much I've argued against him, Vitiate is one of the most powerful Sith Lords in history, and the Jedi Knight defeated him inside a Darkside Nexus on a Darkside-rich planet after giving him time to prepare for him, while weakened.

Although he did have his trusty Astromech with him. ^_^

Also I've never actually said that I believe the Jedi Knight will win, simply that I object to that quote of Yoda's.



Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
A fair point. However all the facts on the plate point to Yoda being more powerful:
* Fighting on par with the most powerful Sith Lord in history.
* Being Grand Master of the Jedi Order during its golden age.
* The ROTS novel quote.
* Achieved Mastery of all VII forms of lightsaber combat sans Vaapad variant of Juyo.
* Sending Darth Sidious himself packing with a Force Push.
* Even the arrogant Darth Sidious, knew that it was a very good possibility that he could have lost to Yoda, and opted to retreat.
* Called by source material to be the most devastating foe darkness has ever known.
The Jedi Knight:
* Champion of the Light of his era
* Defeated Vitiate, but granted Meetra and Revan could have done the same.
* Able to resist the Emperor's Mental dominations.
* Capable of blocking the Emperor's lightning with his lightsaber.

I've never said that I believe the Knight to be better than Yoda. I just took umbridge to that quote being used as proof of Yoda's innate superiority.


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Screen play says Yoda blocks some of his lightning before. And he doesn't lose that match up. Or did you miss Sidious groaning in agony? They were both blown back.

I was just pointing out that Yoda wasn't capable of 'handling' Sidious' Force Lightning as you said he was.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Arguably is operative here. From what I've seen Vitiate's charged lightning is what could even be argued to be more powerful than Sidious'. However that is never seen being used against the JK character. His non-charged lightning was being batted aside, dodged and outright redirected right back onto the Emperor by Revan.
Also Sidious' lightning almost made Mace Windu eat his own saber, killed Darth Plagueis, and was capable of incinerating legions of Stormtroopers. When has Vitiate's non-charged ever demonstrated the same?
Even better yet was even someone like Galen Marek was canonically "no match for the power of Darth Sidious". And yet his lightning could topple AT-ATs, and vaporize storm troopers.

The Emperor issues sustained lightning against the Knight in the final battle, which should have the same effect as a 'charged' bolt of lightning. Also theres nothing indicating that Vitiate did not charge his lightning in that duel when the Knight blocked it.

Sidious killed a legion of Stormtroopers, he did not 'incinerate' them. Vitiate casually used his lightning to overpower a good 4 Jedi Masters at the same time. And his lightning was described as being 'infinately more powerful' than Nyriss (or whoever that was), whose lightning was capable of actually incinerating a being.

Marek didn't vaporise stormtroopers with lightning to my knowledge.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No I am not, but Continuity Database Administrator is charged with keeping the SW universe in order.
In Lightsabers and the force Yoda seems to be superior.
The Knights only advantage being his physical strength (arguable)

Which I suppose translates to him having the authority to issue binding statements about power-levels in off-hand conversation?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
ROTS Sidious? No.

ROTS Sidious yes.


Neither is Vitiate.


That's nice.



Old? Yes.
Inaccurate: Not until proven otherwise. Why is it that you TOR fanboys insist on galavanting around claiming how amazing the Sith Emperor and Revan and the JK are without any real feats to back it up. Your proof is pretty atrocious.
I am not quoting those authors now am I? No. So it's irrelevant.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
ROTS Sidious yes.
Sorry. Revan is not like Obi-Wan in comparison to Sidious. Revan' command of the Force is exceptional as well.

Only chance for Sidious is in a lightsaber duel. In the Force, no guarantee. What will he do? Unleash his Force Lightning on Revan? Revan will redirect Sidious' lightning back at him to make a statement. And don't give me Yoda argument in this case. Revan has demonstrated greater proficiency in tackling Force Lightning assaults. Revan has handled freaking FLS level assaults.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Neither is Vitiate.
He seems to be stronger then PT/OT Sidious.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
That's nice.
Pay attention to arguments of member Nephthys for this one.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Old? Yes.
Inaccurate: Not until proven otherwise.
This does not matters. In SW-TCE; Yoda is still stated to be the strongest Jedi, regardless of updated information of Luke. So you willing to accept this?

Why do you think that their is no OFFICIAL LIST of the strongest Jedi and Sith on the official Star Wars website? Because of different opinion of people. Some may not agree with opinion of even George Lucas. Also, new sources tend to remake the image of the characters. Get the memo?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Why is it that you TOR fanboys insist on galavanting around claiming how amazing the Sith Emperor and Revan and the JK are without any real feats to back it up. Your proof is pretty atrocious.
I am not quoting those authors now am I? No. So it's irrelevant.
I have discussed these characters in detail in other threads. You need to go through those threads and then come back to point any flaws. Thank you.

Originally posted by Nephthys

It doesn't make Yoda automatically superior to the Jedi Knight. Despite how much I've argued against him, Vitiate is one of the most powerful Sith Lords in history, and the Jedi Knight defeated him inside a Darkside Nexus on a Darkside-rich planet after giving him time to prepare for him, while weakened.
The loss of the First Son surely weakened him as well. And the giving him time to prepare is only in the LS ending.


I see no reason why, especially considering Yoda in verse would have knowledge of all other Champions of the light up to that point.




What is your position then?



Uhh he certainly was capable of handling it, it was redirecting it that posed more of a challenge.


Wrong
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq5X3F3g69c
Look at 10:03
Sure his lightning uncharged could defeat the likes of 2 Jedi Knights, but the only Master there was Tol Braga, and of course the JK character was on the level of a Jedi Master failed when he used the Charged lightning, the same charged lightning that brought blistered to Revan's hands and melted his mask.
This lightning generated instantly doesn't compare.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1ktnswRKi8&feature=related


Considering what Marek's lightning does on a regular basis, and how Sidious' is on another level I'd still put Sidious on another level.

My bad could I get that lightning quote again? I was thinking of his TK

No but Yoda being the most powerful Jedi up to that point is fairly critical for the story.

I think you guys are humoring Yoda at this point.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I think you guys are humoring Yoda at this point.

Beefington this isn't 7th grade anymore I'm not going to give you my dick with snide comments alone, you have to buy me dinner first.

Ahahaha too easy

Jedi Knight would not stand a chance. He beat Vitiate because he was "Champion of the light" and all that relevant stuff about high stakes, morals and believing in right thing. With Yoda it would just be a regular sparring between two Jedi, where Yoda outclass any Jedi Knight in every way.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The loss of the First Son surely weakened him as well. And the giving him time to prepare is only in the LS ending.

Its unsure whether the Barsen'thor killed the First Son before the Knight killed the Emperor. In fact, the general consensus seems to be that the Knights ending is the furthest along chronologically. Fair enough about the LS ending. But the Knight still defeated the Emperor in an extremely potent darkside nexus after fighting through his temple, so he was still at a disadvantage in the fight.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I see no reason why, especially considering Yoda in verse would have knowledge of all other Champions of the light up to that point.

But he hasn't watched them personally fight or actually gauged his power against theirs. He's in no position to judge his strength reletive to the Jedi Knights at all. Midichlorian tests weren't invented until 1000 bby to our knowledge.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
What is your position then?

I think the Jedi Knight is probably a good match for Yoda. While he's obviously no match in offensive Force use, Yoda rarely uses that anyway, and has expressly stated he opposes using the Force to attack in ESB. I think that despite not being as well documented, his defeat of the Emperor was an extremely impressive feat and he shouldn't be written off.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Uhh he certainly was capable of handling it, it was redirecting it that posed more of a challenge.

I didn't mean literally handling it.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Wrong
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq5X3F3g69c
Look at 10:03
Sure his lightning uncharged could defeat the likes of 2 Jedi Knights, but the only Master there was Tol Braga, and of course the JK character was on the level of a Jedi Master failed when he used the Charged lightning, the same charged lightning that brought blistered to Revan's hands and melted his mask.
This lightning generated instantly doesn't compare.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1ktnswRKi8&feature=related

Illogical. Just because it wasn't an enormous lightning storm doesn't mean the lightning in that second video was weak as opposed to highly concentrated. The two scenes are identical, the Emperor stands up, mouths off and shoots lightning. Unless the Emperor purposefully used a weaker attack than he did in the first video then I see no reason to think that the lightning he used on the Knight was any less powerful than what he used on the Knight, especially since the Knight has been prophetised to defeat him.

Also nice catch on the actual number of Masters. I havn't got that far in my Knight story and I've avoided spoilers other than the ones used in debates.

But Its still an impressive feat nontheless. Even legendary Force Users like Darth Bane struggled or couldn't overpower multiple Force users at once, and Bane wasn't fightning any Masters.


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Considering what Marek's lightning does on a regular basis, and how Sidious' is on another level I'd still put Sidious on another level.

A>B>C?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No

I agree.