What was Ben's and Yoda's plan?

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Charlie512
I think with the Prequels the actions of Ben and Yoda become very questionable.

The facts:

First, because of Rots they know how extremely powerful the Emperor is. He was around equal to Yoda in Rots and presumably since then up to Rotj he should be must more powerful.

Ben from his fight with Vader should have some idea of how powerful Vader is.

Ben and Yoda wait 20 years to train Luke and expect him in Rotj to take on and defeat Vader.

Why it doesn't make sense.

Ben and Yoda wait too long to train Luke.

According to how powerful the Emperor was, if Luke was every going to have a chance against him he needed to be trained from early childhood based on the power progression shown in the prequels with Anakin. Anakin started his training at age 9 and 10 years later in AOTC of formal Jedi training he wasn't anywhere near the power of the Emperor in Rotj. In fact, he was (if we can believe Anakin in Rots) half as powerful as himself in Rots. Anakin in Rots was weaker than Darth Vader at the time of the OT. Darth Vader in turn was only 80 percent as powerful as the Emperor in Rotj. Therefore, we have from the PT Anakin no where near the powerful to defeat Vader or the Emperor after 10 solid years of training, heck even after 3 more years of War experience it's doubful he could defeat Vader.

Given this was the power progression of the Chosen One, the guy who has had the largest number of midichlorians in his body ever, it would seem that this power progression speed would be a good max. It then stands to reason that if Yoda and Ben assumed Luke had the same amount of midichlorians as his father (maybe they did a test or something) that he would eventually progress at the same quickness or if given intense training at a faster rate. However, not that much faster. If we apply this and we seriously take these implications then we know Yoda and Ben's plan didn't make sense. If they reaslitically expected Luke to defeat the Sith his training should have started much earlier.

I know, I know you guys are going to say "but if they trained him it would cause ripples in the force and the empire would find them" which ok I understand but then if that's the case they should have thought of a new plan. Because realistically they were foolish to think that Luke could defeat the Sith with the amount of training they gave him. Besides this ripple theory hasn't ever been proven and there is actually evidence to the contrary. When Yoda trained Luke in ESB the Sith never sensed anything nor could they find Luke. The fear seemed unfounded.

Considering Luke's skills and power in ROTJ and what Yoda knew of the Emperor's power, they should have known that he didn't stand a chance against him. He probably didn't even stand a chance against Vader at full power. Yet they send him off telling him he was ready. Bullsh*t. They are basically sending him to his death.
They might as well have sent Mace's posse and expected them to do better. Fans will say that they were counting on Vader to turn and destroy the Emperor, but this isn't supported by what Yoda and Ben say. They say Vader is gone and that the Dark Side forever controls your destiny.In short, the PT completely destroys any validity that Ben and Yoda's plan could have had.

If they were really intent on destroying the Sith what they should have done was after Yoda had run away from defeat against the Emperor in Rots. He should have joined with Obi-Wan and then gone to try to assassinate the Sith again. Vader was severely weakened and the Emperor wasn't as strong as he would later be. Combined they could have produced a bigger threat to the Sith than Luke ever could at the time of Rotj (powerwise that is, no one counted on Luke's power of compassion).

In short, Yoda and Ben's plan doesn't make any sense at all.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Charlie512


Ben and Yoda wait 20 years to train Luke and expect him in Rotj to take on and defeat Vader.

Lol which he did.



Originally posted by Charlie512
According to how powerful the Emperor was, if Luke was every going to have a chance against him he needed to be trained from early childhood based on the power progression shown in the prequels with Anakin. Anakin started his training at age 9 and 10 years later in AOTC of formal Jedi training he wasn't anywhere near the power of the Emperor in Rotj.

Luke began his training as an adult. His training was obviously much faster than Anakin's.

And I personally dnt think anyone expected Luke to go win a sword fight against the Emporer. Wars do not really get won like that. I think the Skywalkers using their powers to be the best pilots in the galaxy was a much more useful tool against the Empire. After all that's what destroyed the Death Star.


Originally posted by Charlie512
Anakin in Rots was weaker than Darth Vader at the time of the OT. Darth Vader in turn was only 80 percent as powerful as the Emperor in Rotj. Therefore, we have from the PT Anakin no where near the powerful to defeat Vader or the Emperor after 10 solid years of training, heck even after 3 more years of War experience it's doubful he could defeat Vader.

Lol you're confused because you're wrong here. OT Vader's power level is more on par with Count Dooku's, or Darth Maul's (according to Lucas in a Rolling Stones Interview).

ROTS Anakin was considerably more powerful than that as we saw with his tooling of Count Dooku. Id actually go as far as saying ROTS Anakin was probably as powerful as the Emporer, when his head was clear that is. His main problem was the Emporer had spent 13 years messing with his head, so he was confused where his loyalties lied.

Originally posted by Charlie512


If they were really intent on destroying the Sith what they should have done was after Yoda had run away from defeat against the Emperor in Rots. He should have joined with Obi-Wan and then gone to try to assassinate the Sith again. Vader was severely weakened and the Emperor wasn't as strong as he would later be. Combined they could have produced a bigger threat to the Sith than Luke ever could at the time of Rotj (powerwise that is, no one counted on Luke's power of compassion).



It was a one off chance they had to asassinate the Sith. After that I dnt think you would catch either of them alone like that. Without an army of storm troopers, or on board a Super-Star Destroyer, Death Star e.t.c.

Like I said I doubt they expected Luke to go sword fight the Emporer. Even if he was good enough to do so, he would not have got anywhere near the Emporer (if the Emporer didn't wish it).

But even as of ESB Palpatine foresaw Luke destroying him. As Luke's powers grew the bigger threat he would be as a soldier and pilot against the Empire.

Also I think the more his prescence with the Light Side of the Force grew the more The Emporer's vision of the future would cloud, (kind of like the way the Darth Sidious clouded the Jedi's vision in the PT), which is why he didn't see his death coming. Of course that's just a theory.

ares834
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Lol you're confused because you're wrong here. OT Vader's power level is more on par with Count Dooku's, or Darth Maul's (according to Lucas in a Rolling Stones Interview).


Lucas never said that. He claims that Vader became like Dooku and Maul in that he was no longer this guy with some super potential who could have surpassed the Emperor. I other words, he is like Maul and Dooku as he can't become more powerful than the Emperor.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by ares834
Lucas never said that. He claims that Vader became like Dooku and Maul in that he was no longer this guy with some super potential who could have surpassed the Emperor. I other words, he is like Maul and Dooku as he can't become more powerful than the Emperor.

If I remember the quote exactly it went:

"From then on, he was never as powerful as the Emporer. More like a Darth Maul or a Count Dooku."

From then on was referring to from when Obi-Wan beat him up.

Also in ESB audio commentary Lucas says about Vader "He's lost a lot of power and a lot of potential to become more powerful than the Emporer" So he's referring to Vader as of ESB and comparing him to before he got beat up by Obi-Wan, i.e. ROTS.

And he wasn't just talking about potential. Because he specifically mentions Power and Potential. Both. And notice how he doesn't say he's completely lost all potential to ever match or surpass the Emporer. Just that he's lost a lot of his potential to do that.

Either way the point being OT Vader is not as Powerful as Jedi Anakin at his peak (the point when he tooled Count Dooku.)

Unless you think Anakin at his peak was still less than 80% of the Emporer in power. Which would make Dooku what? 50-60% of Sidious at most. I doubt that.

ares834
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
If I remember the quote exactly it went:

"From then on, he was never as powerful as the Emporer. More like a Darth Maul or a Count Dooku."

From then on was referring to from when Obi-Wan beat him up.

"You got it. And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

This is the exact quote. He isn't saying that Vader is as powerful as Maul or Dooku, but rather, like them, he is not "more powerful than he (Sidious) was".



Once again here is the full quote.

"At this point, Vader's motives are to convince him to come with him; join the dark side. Together, they're going to overthrow the Emperor. Which is the thematic device that's used throughout the whole movie is that in terms of Sith, two of them gang up and become the dominant Sith. Anakin would have been able to do it, if he hadn't been debilitated and now he's half machine, half man. He's lost a lot of his power of the Force, he's lost a lot of his ability to be more powerful than the Emperor. But Luke has it. Luke is Vader's hope."

Power in the force refers to, yes, potential. After all, in the movies characters say others are "strong in the force" when they are untrained and still "weak". Furthermore, at the scene Lucas is reffering to with this quote, Luke is not more powerful than Vader. So it's clear that by "power of the force" Lucas means potential. But it's a moot point as I...



Never said he was...

DARTH POWER
First of all thanks for the exact quotes.

Originally posted by ares834
From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

You see theres 2 sentences here. The first:

From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku.

That sure sounds to me like he's saying he's now not as powerful as the emporer, his power is more in the league of Maul or Dooku.

He didnt say "from then on he wasn't stronger than the emporer anymore". No he said "From then on, he wasn't as strong as the emporer."

If by power he meant potential like you say, then he wouldn't have said "as strong." Because we know Anakin's potential is like double that of the Emporer's.

Of course there is a chance Lucas all mighty has just made a grammatical error by saying "as strong" instead of "stronger". But in that case he's just saying Vader's potential is now in league with Maul's or Dooku's.



Anyway then there's this:

He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that.

Now he's clearly talking about potential. And what Vader should have been by now, but what Luke could still become. He doesn't say "Luke is that powerful" which is what he would have said if by power he meant potential like your implying.




Originally posted by ares834


Once again here is the full quote.

"At this point, Vader's motives are to convince him to come with him; join the dark side. Together, they're going to overthrow the Emperor. Which is the thematic device that's used throughout the whole movie is that in terms of Sith, two of them gang up and become the dominant Sith. Anakin would have been able to do it, if he hadn't been debilitated and now he's half machine, half man. He's lost a lot of his power of the Force, he's lost a lot of his ability to be more powerful than the Emperor. But Luke has it. Luke is Vader's hope."

Power in the force refers to, yes, potential. After all, in the movies characters say others are "strong in the force" when they are untrained and still "weak". Furthermore, at the scene Lucas is reffering to with this quote, Luke is not more powerful than Vader. So it's clear that by "power of the force" Lucas means potential.

First in the movies they do differentiate between power and potential. When they say in Episode 1 about Anakin "the Force is strong with him" but no one calls him powerful at that point.

Palpatine says to Anakin in AOTC "I see you're becoming the most powerful of all the Jedi. Even more powerful than Master Yoda." He specifically says "Becoming" not that he is already more powerful than them.

Lastly Sidious tells Yoda in ROTS "You will not stop me. Lord Vader will become more powerful than either of us."

Again "will become". Not "already is".

Now from this:

He's lost a lot of his power of the Force, he's lost a lot of his ability to be more powerful than the Emperor. But Luke has it. Luke is Vader's hope.

He's said 2 things here. 1) He's lost a lot of power, and 2) he's lost a lot of his ability to become more powerful than the Emporer (i.e potential).

Then when he says "Luke has it." Thats right after the potential part. So I dnt see at any point Lucas saying "Luke is more powerful than Vader" as of ESB. If he did then we would know he's talking about potential when he says "power"





Originally posted by ares834
Never said he was...

Ah right. I made the initial comment because the other poster claimed OT Vader was a lot more powerful than ROTS Anakin.

Charlie512
You do know the Emperor got much stronger over the break between Rots and Rotj right?

Routh estimates of Force Powers:
Max Potential Anakin 200
The Emperor Rotj - 100
Darth Vader -80
Yoda-80
Darth Sidious Rots-80
Dooku - 75
Anakin Skywalker -70
Obi-Wan 70

Anakin was far weaker than Sidious and Yoda in the force in Rots. Yoda and Sidious were throwing around Senate pods, Anakin has no such feats. He couldn't even beat Obi-Wan (who would get thrashed against Sidious) in a force push contest. The claim that Anakin is weaker than OT Vader is also supported by the fact Vader had 20+ years to train in the Dark Side, he was a "master of evil" aka of the Dark Side by ANH. He was nowhere near a master of the force circa Rots.

Darth Vader (10 years Jedi training, 3 years CW experience , 20+ years learning the Dark Side from Sidious) > Anakin Skywalker Rots

It's doubtful Anakin could even beat Dooku in a force contest, since Dooku casually took out Obi-Wan with the force when Darth Vader pre-mustafar couldn't while enraged.

Also you do realize that there is no such thing as "The Light Side" of the force right?

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Charlie512
You do know the Emperor got much stronger over the break between Rots and Rotj right?

Routh estimates of Force Powers:
Max Potential Anakin 200
The Emperor Rotj - 100
Darth Vader -80
Yoda-80
Darth Sidious Rots-80
Dooku - 75
Anakin Skywalker -70
Obi-Wan 70

Anakin was far weaker than Sidious and Yoda in the force in Rots. Yoda and Sidious were throwing around Senate pods, Anakin has no such feats. He couldn't even beat Obi-Wan (who would get thrashed against Sidious) in a force push contest. The claim that Anakin is weaker than OT Vader is also supported by the fact Vader had 20+ years to train in the Dark Side, he was a "master of evil" aka of the Dark Side by ANH. He was nowhere near a master of the force circa Rots.

Darth Vader (10 years Jedi training, 3 years CW experience , 20+ years learning the Dark Side from Sidious) > Anakin Skywalker Rots

It's doubtful Anakin could even beat Dooku in a force contest, since Dooku casually took out Obi-Wan with the force when Darth Vader pre-mustafar couldn't while enraged.

Also you do realize that there is no such thing as "The Light Side" of the force right?

Wait wait wait.. You talking about Force TK only??

In that case yes OT Vader is above ROTS Anakin. As is Count Dooku for that matter. They have a Mastery of Force TK that ROTS Anakin just doesn't seem to have.

But ROTS Jedi Anakin has the most raw power of all the above. Although we've only seen him apply that power effeciently in a sword fight.

Lucas has said it clearly Vader lost A LOT of power in the force when he got beat up by Obi-Wan.

In short OT Vader has got better force telekinesis than ROTS Anakin. But ROTS Anakin is still simply more powerful. If he fights the way he fought against Dooku, then OT Vader would not fair much better than Count Dooku did.

(Although it's a bit wierd talking about Anakin fighting Vader roll eyes (sarcastic) )

Charlie512
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Wait wait wait.. You talking about Force TK only??

In that case yes OT Vader is above ROTS Anakin. As is Count Dooku for that matter. They have a Mastery of Force TK that ROTS Anakin just doesn't seem to have.

But ROTS Jedi Anakin has the most raw power of all the above. Although we've only seen him apply that power effeciently in a sword fight.

Lucas has said it clearly Vader lost A LOT of power in the force when he got beat up by Obi-Wan.

In short OT Vader has got better force telekinesis than ROTS Anakin. But ROTS Anakin is still simply more powerful. If he fights the way he fought against Dooku, then OT Vader would not fair much better than Count Dooku did.

(Although it's a bit wierd talking about Anakin fighting Vader roll eyes (sarcastic) )
I am talking about Mastery of the force, which means being able to use the force for different powers. TK is simply one out of many powers the force gives.
And this is precisely what I am talking about since I started the thread discussing Luke's gain in force power.

I really am not considering sword fighting skills as this doesn't primarily come from Mastery of the force (ie. force knowledge).
If you want to say Anakin Skywalker was a better duelist than OT Vader than go ahead but I don't see how it's relevant.

It would only be relevant if Yoda was planning that Luke defeat Vader in a duel. However, this isn't so, as we never even see Yoda train Luke with a lightsaber but rather teach him about the force.

Thus what I have an issue with Yoda thinking Luke was powerful enough ( in the force), to take on Vader or the Emperor. Considering both of them had far surpassed Anakin Skywalker from ROTS.

And this was Anakin Skywalker with 10 years of Jedi Training and 3 years of clone wars experience.

It doesn't make sense that Yoda would plan to train Luke so late and for so little time to face up against Sith Lords that were much more powerful than the Chosen One in ROTS.

Ya dig? And you are the one that brought up Anakin fighting Vader.
roll eyes (sarcastic) I was simply comparing their power.

DARTH POWER
^ Power can be applied in different ways. A sword fight being one of the main combat applications the Jedi use.

Dooku's knowledge of the Force was a joke to Anakin in ROTS. So despite not having the same versatility with the Force Anakin was simply more powerful. And he was more powerful than OT Vader, as Lucas has said himself. Read the above quotes.

And of course Yoda had to train Luke in the Force. Lol. They Sword fight using the Force.

If Anakin was able to stomp Count Dooku, then I don't see why you can not accept that Luke could defeat Vader. You keep talking about this 10 years plus training, but does it not occur to you that maybe Luke was just a faster study than Anakin??

Also I don't think Yoda expected Luke to go face the Emporer in a sword fight as of ROTJ tbh.

queeq
To me, these problems were created mainly by the PT... there's a number of things that kinda make situations in the OT ridiculous... And I don't understand that...

DARTH POWER
^ Lol Queeq, you blaming the PT? Im shocked!!!

But yeah I admit no one thought of Luke's training as being too fast before the PT..

It was quite clear in the OT when Yoda says to Luke "No more training do you require" and when Vader says to Luke "Your skills are now complete.."

queeq
I'm not blaming the PT, I'm blaming the filmmakers who clearly began to create the SW universe as they had it ideally in mind. To me, the universe they created in 1977-1983 seemed of lesser importance.

For Lucas the starting point of SW was prior to ANH, with a universe he had in mind and a vague idea of a large story he wanted to make. He made what he could at the time... but he says the PT looks what he ALWAYS had in mind.

For us ANH, ESB and ROTJ are how and when we got to know the SW world and clearly from that POV the PT doesn't match very well. I think Lucas thinks the OT doesn't match very well with his original vision which of course predates the OT (and developed well after that, but he seems to ingore that fact). So I can understand his dissatisfaction now with the OT. On the other hand: the stories and scripts of the OT are a lot better, they seemed to try harder to make it work, it made him a fortune AND the possibility to make the PT at all... So treating the OT a bit more as canon instead of the original vision would have been nice.

DARTH POWER
True say.

queeq
So say we all.

Charlie512
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ Power can be applied in different ways. A sword fight being one of the main combat applications the Jedi use.

Dooku's knowledge of the Force was a joke to Anakin in ROTS. So despite not having the same versatility with the Force Anakin was simply more powerful. And he was more powerful than OT Vader, as Lucas has said himself. Read the above quotes.

And of course Yoda had to train Luke in the Force. Lol. They Sword fight using the Force.

If Anakin was able to stomp Count Dooku, then I don't see why you can not accept that Luke could defeat Vader. You keep talking about this 10 years plus training, but does it not occur to you that maybe Luke was just a faster study than Anakin??

Also I don't think Yoda expected Luke to go face the Emporer in a sword fight as of ROTJ tbh.
Except sword fighting skills are mainly improved by practicing well...sword fighting, not necessarily with Mastery of the Force. Just because you are stronger than the force does not mean you are good with a light saber. Just like Sidious was more powerful in the force than Mace yet still lost in a duel. Just like Vader is more powerful in the force, yet still not as good as Anakin in sword fighting. You can be a Master of the force, but if you don't practice sword fighting you can be defeated by someone who does.

Anyways...
Lol. That is plain wrong. If Dooku's knowledge in the force paled in comparison to Anakin's, then Anakin should have stomped Obi-Wan, yet he didn't. And yet Dooku did.. hmmm.
And yes Vader lost a lot of power in the force after mustafar but gained it back and surpassed his previous self in the 20 years following ROTS while studying the Dark Side.

Except, Darth Vader is more powerful than Anakin Skywalker in ROTS. Luke with that amount of training shouldn't be anywhere near Vader. Its doubtful he could even defeat someone like Kit Fisto.

But even then, if you don't agree that Vader > Anakin, which I can understand why you wouldn't. How would Ben and Yoda know how strong Vader was around the time of OT. You might say "Well Ben fought Vader in ANH...". But, this was after they had planned out the whole thing. And it doesn't explain why they waited so long to train Luke. If they didn't know how strong Vader was, why not train Luke to be the strongest?

Canonically, Vader is powerful.

Unless, you want to go simply by the OT films which portray Vader as not being that great.

But then that defeats what was given to us by the PT. confused

Inconsistencies??

Charlie512
I'll answer my own thread. The reason the plan doesn't make sense if because Luke's progression seems too fast based on what the PT establishes. However, I recognize that this isn't the case. I don't think Luke's power increases too fast (well at first I did), but instead that Anakin's power increases far too slow. Since the OT, was established before the PT, the PT has the flaw. It just messes everything up since OT and PT are both supreme canon so there is no way for one thing to trump the other. Since, they both make two halves of one story. What this ultimately does is lower the quality of the Saga as a whole.

Anakin is far too weak by AOTC. He is the Chosen One, with more midichlorians (and thus more potential, meaning higher peak and faster natural progression) than any other Jedi or Sith ever. Yet he is not anything special. His power is far too low. It's arguable that even Obi-Wan at the same level of training is more powerful. He certainly has bigger feats with killing a Sith Lord at yet still a Padwan, vs Anakin who is really incompetent at that stage.

According to how fast Luke's power grew. By ROTS, Anakin should have been far more powerful than he was. Challenging Sidious, Yoda and Mace in force power, yet he is nowhere close. Anakin should have torn up Obi-Wan with the force in their battle in Mustafar. He had a lot of raw power, he was enraged and filled with the Dark Side, he should have slaughtered Obi-Wan with the force. Yet he conveniently never uses it except to counter a force push.

Anakin should have been a prodigy in the force. He should have done things that were considered impossible. His power should have been something like Galen Marek's (maybe that's why I like him; because he's what Anakin never was in terms of power). Any way, Anakin was nerfed in the PT for some reason.

So, to answer the thread, Ben and Yoda's plan, now seems very flawed because of the prequels .

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Charlie512
Except sword fighting skills are mainly improved by practicing well...sword fighting, not necessarily with Mastery of the Force.

And Dooku had far more experience than Anakin but that did not help him? In fact going by this "it's all about experience" theory, no one should last 2 seconds against Yoda in a Sword fight. And yet both Dooku and Sidious have competed against the old Jedi.

Originally posted by Charlie512
Just because you are stronger than the force does not mean you are good with a light saber. Just like Sidious was more powerful in the force than Mace yet still lost in a duel. Just like Vader is more powerful in the force, yet still not as good as Anakin in sword fighting. You can be a Master of the force, but if you don't practice sword fighting you can be defeated by someone who does.


Mastery of the force (as far as I understand) increases one's connection to the Force. Of course having huge amounts of raw power (like Luke or Anakin) can also speed up that connection (or power in the force).

That connection/power can be applied in 2 different ways (for combat purposes), 1). Telekinesis, or 2) Power, strength, speed, reflexes to use in Saber fighting.

Remember Dooku makes this distinction in AOTC "Surely this contest can not be decided by our knowledge of the force, but by our skills with a Lightsaber"..



Originally posted by Charlie512
Anyways...
Lol. That is plain wrong. If Dooku's knowledge in the force paled in comparison to Anakin's, then Anakin should have stomped Obi-Wan, yet he didn't. And yet Dooku did.. hmmm.

No sorry that's not what I meant. I was quoting from the ROTS novel where it stated "Dooku's knowledge of the Force has become a Joke" during his fight with Anakin. In other words he does have much more knowledge of the Force than Anakin but it was just no use to him against Anakin's raw power.

Originally posted by Charlie512
And yes Vader lost a lot of power in the force after mustafar but gained it back and surpassed his previous self in the 20 years following ROTS while studying the Dark Side.

Lol it wasn't exactly proportional. Yes clearly his mastery of the force and telekinesis improved a lot over the years, but I doubt it was far beyond the likes Count Dooku's. In another quote above Lucas says Vader was "From them on never as strong as the Emporer. He was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku.."

And the quote where he's saying he's lost a lot of power since getting cut in 2, he's saying it in the Empire Strikes Back audio commentary. So he's comparing OT Vader to ROTS Anakin, saying Vader has a lot less power. Although granted he's probably talking about the Raw Power Anakin had at his disposal at the time of ROTS.

Originally posted by Charlie512
Except, Darth Vader is more powerful than Anakin Skywalker in ROTS.

Theres just nothing to suggest this. Yes he was probably better at using Telekinesis, but so was Count Dooku. And like I said the novel states all that force knowledge of his being a Joke next to Anakin's raw power.

Originally posted by Charlie512
Luke with that amount of training shouldn't be anywhere near Vader. Its doubtful he could even defeat someone like Kit Fisto.

Again Dooku had like 2 or 3 generations more experience than Anakin. And we saw what happened there. Also Yoda had centuries more experience than Sidious, and yet did not defeat him. The experience thing is clearly not directly proportional in Star Wars.

Originally posted by Charlie512
But even then, if you don't agree that Vader > Anakin, which I can understand why you wouldn't. How would Ben and Yoda know how strong Vader was around the time of OT. You might say "Well Ben fought Vader in ANH...". But, this was after they had planned out the whole thing. And it doesn't explain why they waited so long to train Luke. If they didn't know how strong Vader was, why not train Luke to be the strongest?

They were keeping Luke in hiding until "the time was right".. Im not sure exactly what their plan was, and I doubt things went exactly according to plan. I guess they thought they could make Luke or Leia powerful enough to overthrow the Emporer in like 5 to 10 years of training or something.

But just look at this: With a few days of training, Luke destroyed the Death Star. Thats more important than who wins a Force fight. So their plan wasn't completely flawed.

Also in the PT the Emporer blocked the vision off all the Jedi. Whilst in ROTJ the Emporer's vision was blocked. He couldn't see his own death and Vader's betrayal. So perhaps all that was needed was for Luke to become a Jedi, be completely on the Light Side which would cause a ripple in the Dark Side. Maybe. Just a theory. I just don't think it was all about who wins a Lightsaber fight.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Charlie512
I'll answer my own thread. The reason the plan doesn't make sense if because Luke's progression seems too fast based on what the PT establishes. However, I recognize that this isn't the case. I don't think Luke's power increases too fast (well at first I did), but instead that Anakin's power increases far too slow. Since the OT, was established before the PT, the PT has the flaw. It just messes everything up since OT and PT are both supreme canon so there is no way for one thing to trump the other. Since, they both make two halves of one story. What this ultimately does is lower the quality of the Saga as a whole. Anakin is far too weak by AOTC. He is the Chosen One, with more midichlorians (and thus more potential, meaning higher peak and faster natural progression) than any other Jedi or Sith ever. Yet he is not anything special. His power is far too low. It's arguable that even Obi-Wan at the same level of training is more powerful. He certainly has bigger feats with killing a Sith Lord at yet still a Padwan, vs Anakin who is really incompetent at that stage.

Oh Sorry for the late reply. Didn't mean for you to answer your own post.

Yes perhaps Luke was just a faster learner than Anakin. Also if I remember correctly Anakin complains about Obi-Wan and the Jedi holding him back in AOTC. Perhaps they just didn't hold Luke back. Gave him like a crash course in Jedi training. Also I do think Luke starting as an adult would speed up his training.



Originally posted by Charlie512
According to how fast Luke's power grew. By ROTS, Anakin should have been far more powerful than he was. Challenging Sidious, Yoda and Mace in force power, yet he is nowhere close. Anakin should have torn up Obi-Wan with the force in their battle in Mustafar. He had a lot of raw power, he was enraged and filled with the Dark Side, he should have slaughtered Obi-Wan with the force. Yet he conveniently never uses it except to counter a force push.

I think the dominant opinion is that Anakin's head was pretty screwed up when he fought Obi-Wan which is why he did not fight as effectively as he did against Count Dooku.

Originally posted by Charlie512
Anakin should have been a prodigy in the force. He should have done things that were considered impossible. His power should have been something like Galen Marek's (maybe that's why I like him; because he's what Anakin never was in terms of power).

I dnt think we're supposed to mention EU stuff in this forum.

But I do think you are underestimating how powerful Anakin was by ROTS. Tooling Count Dooku (a guy who we saw competing against Yoda in the previous film) was no small showing. He certainly had the raw power at his disposal, although his focus was a little twisted at times, which probably effected his combat ability.

Remember one of Qui-Gon/ Liam Neeson/ Legend's first lessons to Anakin in TPM "Always remember your focus determines your reality". He probably should have spent more time reflecting on that!

Charlie512
Originally posted by DARTH POWER

And Dooku had far more experience than Anakin but that did not help him? In fact going by this "it's all about experience" theory, no one should last 2 seconds against Yoda in a Sword fight. And yet both Dooku and Sidious have competed against the old Jedi.

Dooku may have been caught off guard by Anakin's aggressiveness sort of how Vader was caught off guard by Luke in ROTJ.
Except you are confusing what I mean, generally no one should last to long in a force contest against a 800 year old Jedi, but the way I would this would be that Yoda is very small and that although his midi concentration is high his overall midi quantity is small. Thus his long life has caused him to be able to overcome this limitation and catch up to those with lots of midis.

However, light saber combat is different , you can primarily get better at lightsaber combat with practice. And before the Sith showed up in TPM its possible the Jedi did not practice sword fighting extensively. Yoda probably doesn't practice to much since he is always sitting down sending other Jedi to missions. And Yoda is very very old, this probably has had an impact on his combat ability .



Mastery of the force (as far as I understand) increases one's connection to the Force. Of course having huge amounts of raw power (like Luke or Anakin) can also speed up that connection (or power in the force).

Mastery of the force to me means "has more force knowledge" and meditates and exercises on that knowledge to increase connection to the force (power).

That connection/power can be applied in 2 different ways (for combat purposes), 1). Telekinesis, or 2) Power, strength, speed, reflexes to use in Saber fighting.

Remember Dooku makes this distinction in AOTC "Surely this contest can not be decided by our knowledge of the force, but by our skills with a Lightsaber"..

I can only guess that Yoda was going easy on Dooku. In ROTS, Yoda was going head to head with Sidious who was more powerful in the force to Dooku.

No sorry that's not what I meant. I was quoting from the ROTS novel where it stated "Dooku's knowledge of the Force has become a Joke" during his fight with Anakin. In other words he does have much more knowledge of the Force than Anakin but it was just no use to him against Anakin's raw power.

Oh, my bad.
So, did Anakin not have this raw power in AOTC? If he did why didn't it help him much then? And where was this raw power in his fight vs Obi-Wan?


Lol it wasn't exactly proportional. Yes clearly his mastery of the force and telekinesis improved a lot over the years, but I doubt it was far beyond the likes Count Dooku's. In another quote above Lucas says Vader was "From them on never as strong as the Emporer. He was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku.."


Which even if only as powerful as Maul or Dooku, Luke circa ROTJ shouldn't stand a chance against that power.
And you have to agree that Darth Vader got far more powerful than right after mustafar, if not then why did he become a Master of the Dark Side? Not to mention he felt confident in his fight against Ben in ANH. If he wasn't as powerful as back then, why did he say he was now a master and then he was a learner? Does this not indicate he considered himself more powerful than ever before?

And the quote where he's saying he's lost a lot of power since getting cut in 2, he's saying it in the Empire Strikes Back audio commentary. So he's comparing OT Vader to ROTS Anakin, saying Vader has a lot less power. Although granted he's probably talking about the Raw Power Anakin had at his disposal at the time of ROTS.

What is Lucas definition of power?

Theres just nothing to suggest this. Yes he was probably better at using Telekinesis, but so was Count Dooku. And like I said the novel states all that force knowledge of his being a Joke next to Anakin's raw power.
I think it is held that Dooku's form of sword fighting was his downfall to Anakin. His form couldnt handle the agressiveness of Anakin. I don't think Darth Vader would have that problem.

Again Dooku had like 2 or 3 generations more experience than Anakin. And we saw what happened there. Also Yoda had centuries more experience than Sidious, and yet did not defeat him. The experience thing is clearly not directly proportional in Star Wars.

I am not talking only about experience but also of knowledge.
Sidious and Yoda had about the same amount of knowledge in the dark side and the force respectively.

They were keeping Luke in hiding until "the time was right".. Im not sure exactly what their plan was, and I doubt things went exactly according to plan. I guess they thought they could make Luke or Leia powerful enough to overthrow the Emporer in like 5 to 10 years of training or something.

What does that mean? Why not train Luke immediately??

And I just thought of would could be a potential plot hole. Given that Obi-Wan left Anakin for dead, he wouldn't have known that Anakin was alive in Vader. So why would they send the twins off and plan to train them "when the time was right" if they didn't even know Darth Vader was still alive? So was it the Emperor that they planned to defeat with the twins? But Ben never mentions the Emperor in ANH.. What was the plan again?

If it was the Emperor considering how powerful the Emperor was they should have started training as soon as possible. And Yoda should have told Luke straight up that his power was insignificant to the Emperor's, yet he said "no more training do you require". How does any of this make sense? .


But just look at this: With a few days of training, Luke destroyed the Death Star. Thats more important than who wins a Force fight. So their plan wasn't completely flawed.

Made only possible by the death star plans the rebel alliance acquired. An alliance Ben and Yoda didn't know would exist. .

Also in the PT the Emporer blocked the vision off all the Jedi. Whilst in ROTJ the Emporer's vision was blocked. He couldn't see his own death and Vader's betrayal. So perhaps all that was needed was for Luke to become a Jedi, be completely on the Light Side which would cause a ripple in the Dark Side. Maybe. Just a theory. I just don't think it was all about who wins a Lightsaber fight.
I don't really understand your theory, could you elaborate.

Charlie512
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh Sorry for the late reply. Didn't mean for you to answer your own post.

No worries, I wasn't responding to you, I was trying to answer the overall thread question.

Yes perhaps Luke was just a faster learner than Anakin. Also if I

remember correctly Anakin complains about Obi-Wan and the Jedi holding him back in AOTC. Perhaps they just didn't hold Luke back. Gave him like a crash course in Jedi training. Also I do think Luke starting as an adult would speed up his training.

Perhaps, but it still doesn't seem like enough.


I think the dominant opinion is that Anakin's head was pretty screwed up when he fought Obi-Wan which is why he did not fight as effectively as he did against Count Dooku.

I don't know. Not too screwed up because after getting his limbs chopped off, burning alive, getting left for dead and told he lost the love of his life, he seemed pretty sane to me.
If he was really screwed up he should have gone off the deep end after Mustafar.

I dnt think we're supposed to mention EU stuff in this forum.

But I do think you are underestimating how powerful Anakin was by ROTS. Tooling Count Dooku (a guy who we saw competing against Yoda in the previous film) was no small showing. He certainly had the raw power at his disposal, although his focus was a little twisted at times, which probably effected his combat ability.

Remember one of Qui-Gon/ Liam Neeson/ Legend's first lessons to Anakin in TPM "Always remember your focus determines your reality". He probably should have spent more time reflecting on that!

I don't think so. I only used EU stuff as an example trying to show what I meant. I didn't use it as evidence for anything.

I found this article which helped explain why Luke's power increase was too quick.

TV Tropes: Instant Expert

For Luke it reads:

Luke becomes a Jedi in the unspecified period of time it takes the Millennium Falcon to reach Bespin sans hyperdrive. It takes only a few minutes of screen time and no indication is given of extreme time passing. Although real Jedi apparently started training in early childhood, Luke is able to put up a good fight against Vader and use powers such as force jump by the time he leaves the planet. By Return of the Jedi, Luke, who's otherwise spent most of his time looking for Han rather than training, is now a full-blown Jedi, being able to employ mind tricks and numerous other Jedi powers with little effort. He's also a far better swordsman, able to defeat Vader this time.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Charlie512
I can only guess that Yoda was going easy on Dooku. In ROTS, Yoda was going head to head with Sidious who was more powerful in the force to Dooku.

We can guess yet it would have been very stupid and incompetent of Yoda to go easy on Dooku considering what was at stake. Obi-Wan clearly told Anakin he cant stop Dooku alone and if Anakin helps him they can stop the war right now. If not Anakin would have been expelled from the Jedi Order.

But still Yoda was clearly going to defeat Dooku before the distraction. My point being though Dooku clearly did have the strength to compete against him. Put up a fight at least, despite having centuries less combat experience.

But yes Yoda definetely went all out against Sidious. But again with centuries more experience and sword fighting practice was unable to defeat him.


Originally posted by Charlie512
Oh, my bad.
So, did Anakin not have this raw power in AOTC? If he did why didn't it help him much then? And where was this raw power in his fight vs Obi-Wan?

Well he wasn't a fully trained Knight yet, so probably could not apply/access that raw power anywhere near as effectively, if at all.



Originally posted by Charlie512
Which even if only as powerful as Maul or Dooku, Luke circa ROTJ shouldn't stand a chance against that power.

Under the assumption he's less capable than AOTC Anakin then yes he wouldn't have a chance. But if he's like Jedi Knight Anakin from CW movie (not sure if that counts as EU?? Its technically a SW Movie) then maybe he'd have a chance right??


Originally posted by Charlie512
And you have to agree that Darth Vader got far more powerful than right after mustafar, if not then why did he become a Master of the Dark Side?

No Lucas has made it clear he was far less powerful after Mustafar. Master of the Dark Side is kind of hyperbole. Nothing that was mentioned in the movies. Was his Mastery of the Force greater than the Likes of Count Dooku?? I doubt it.

Originally posted by Charlie512
Not to mention he felt confident in his fight against Ben in ANH. If he wasn't as powerful as back then, why did he say he was now a master and then he was a learner? Does this not indicate he considered himself more powerful than ever before?

Perhaps he just meant his knowledge of the force was greater. To be honest that line doesn't mean all that much. He's not exactly going to say "Im a weakling compared to what I was, so please take it easy on me.."

The fact is his younger self defeated someone considerably more powerful than Old Ben. That was Count Dooku. The fact that after all those years of Mastering the Dark Side he had trouble taking down Old Ben does not really help his case here.

Nor does the fact that in the audio commentary of that scene Lucas says this fight is not as good compared to the PT ones because Vader is mostly machine and Ben an old man.


Originally posted by Charlie512
What is Lucas definition of power?

This is a good question. Im guessing it means Raw Power at they have at their disposal. Possibly applied power.

But it certainly does not mean potential, because he's also talked about potential in the same line but in a different manner. By referring to potential he says "He's lost a lot of feasibility to become more powerful than the Emporer.."


Originally posted by Charlie512
I think it is held that Dooku's form of sword fighting was his downfall to Anakin. His form couldnt handle the agressiveness of Anakin. I don't think Darth Vader would have that problem.

I don't buy that. Dooku was a pure fencer, who has gone up against someone as powerful as Yoda. This idea that his style could not handle it comes from a line in the ROTS novel that says something like "his own elegant Makashi could not handle the striles of Djem So head on, especially while fending off another attacker.."

But as the fight becomes one on one and really heats up, the novel makes it perfectly clear the Only thing Dooku could not handle was Anakin's raw power.

And like I mentioned above.. Lucas states in ANH Audio commentary that Vader does not fight as well now because he's mostly machine. Implying he's a lot worse in terms of a Lightsaber fight at least. Less mobile, much slower, e.t.c.



Originally posted by Charlie512
I am not talking only about experience but also of knowledge.
Sidious and Yoda had about the same amount of knowledge in the dark side and the force respectively.

And again Dooku had more "Force Knowledge" than Anakin, much much more. And Sidious had more "Force Knowledge" than Mace Windu. Much more, but the latter still beat him in a Lightsaber fight.




Originally posted by Charlie512
What does that mean? Why not train Luke immediately?? And I just thought of would could be a potential plot hole. Given that Obi-Wan left Anakin for dead, he wouldn't have known that Anakin was alive in Vader. So why would they send the twins off and plan to train them "when the time was right" if they didn't even know Darth Vader was still alive? So was it the Emperor that they planned to defeat with the twins? But Ben never mentions the Emperor in ANH.. What was the plan again?

Ben says to Luke in ROTJ "The Emporer knew as well as I did, If Anakin were to have any offspring they would be a threat to him.."

In other words They had to keep them hidden. The Emporer sensed Luke's powers growing in ESB. But he was an adult by then. He was with the rebellion, able to try and escape the Empire if they came after him.

So I'm guessing they thought teaching Luke as a child would have just been far too risky. They did not want to alert the Emporer of his existence yet.



Originally posted by Charlie512
Made only possible by the death star plans the rebel alliance acquired. An alliance Ben and Yoda didn't know would exist. .

But Luke was the only one capable of making that shot. In all fights against the Empire after that the Rebellion had Force endowed pilot on their side.

That was obviously a powerful weapon they had on their side. I think that was much more useful really than being able to defeat Vader or the Emporer in a Lightsaber fight.

I think the point was there will always be flaws to exploit in technology. Which is why the Force was the real weapon and decider of who controlled the Galaxy.


Originally posted by Charlie512
I don't really understand your theory, could you elaborate.

Well in the PT The Dark side seemed to be more powerful than the Light. Sidious blocked the Jedi vision completely so they had no idea what was coming. In AOTC Mace Windu says "I think we should inform the senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished.."

And Yoda says "Only the Dark Lord of the Sith knows of our weakness"

I think Anakin's prescence in the Force having the Force so strongly with him could have tipped the balance making the Light side stronger again. But problem was he was never truly attuned to the Light side was he?

Unlike Luke, whose prescence was clearly felt by the Emporer as a Disturbance in the Focre. And then it was the Emporer who could no longer see the future. He did not forsee Vader's betrayal or his own death.

It was the whole Balance of the Force shifting which is what I believe killed the Emporer in the end.

queeq
Shifting back into balance you mean?

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by queeq
Shifting back into balance you mean?

Yeah I suppose. Due to Luke's presence in the Force.

Whilst in the PT it was the other way around. It was the Sith's presence which made the Jedi's ability to use the force useless according to Mace Windu.

Im guessing Anakin's presence in the Force did not do the same thing because well even as a Jedi Knight he wasn't really all that good was he. He has such a dark presence around him, and before he became a Jedi he murdered a whole village.

queeq
Well, Palpy wasn't losing until Vader attacked him. So I don't think Luke's presence itself made any difference.

DARTH POWER
^ In the sense that he could not forsee through the Force Vader's betrayal if he tried to kill Luke and blind to is own coming death. Much like the Jedi did not forsee the destruction of the whole Jedi order.

Remember The Emporer's line in ESB. There is a great distrubance in the Force (due to Luke). Much like the disturbance in the Force the Jedi are feeling in AOTC due to the Sith.

I just don't think it was all about beating Sidious in a Sword fight. Mace Windu already did that for all the good it achieved.

queeq
But Sidious knew he was the Son of Skywalker... the Jedi couldn't see anything with a Sith Lord standing right next to them.

DARTH POWER
Well they can only blame so much on the Force being clouded. A bit of Jedi wisdom and intellect could have helped wink

Charlie512
Originally posted by DARTH POWER

I think Anakin's prescence in the Force having the Force so strongly with him could have tipped the balance making the Light side stronger again. But problem was he was never truly attuned to the Light side was he?

Unlike Luke, whose prescence was clearly felt by the Emporer as a Disturbance in the Focre. And then it was the Emporer who could no longer see the future. He did not forsee Vader's betrayal or his own death.

It was the whole Balance of the Force shifting which is what I believe killed the Emporer in the end.

I have my own theory on balance of the force which I just came up with, I posted it on the Balance of the Force Thread in the PT section.
It reads:
Originally posted by Charlie512

Theory of the Force:

The balance of the force corresponds with Anakin Skywalker's position in the force.

Through out the PT, Anakin becomes increasingly closer and closer to the Dark Side. At the same time the Dark Side is becoming more present in the Galaxy. The Jedi can't use the force as well. Plus when Anakin slaughters the Tuskin Village, Yoda feels darkness in the force. Then in ROTS, with Anakin in the Dark, Obi-Wan says the galaxy is in darkness. Later in the OT, when Vader is conflicted and loses committment to the DS we can see it starts to fail the Emperor. If imbalance depends in the existance of the Sith (Palpatine) and it helped Palps all thought out the PT, why is it not working anymore. Is this not an indicator that Anakin was directly responsible for the balance of the force?

DARTH POWER
^ Very similar to what Im getting at. Basically we're both saying just the pesence in the Force of the Skywalkers, and the path they chose is what shifts the Balance in the Force and thereby shifts the Balance of Power in the Galaxy.

JediRobin23
wow, thats alot of argument. lucas obviously needed to connect the prequel trilogy written after 20 years

Charlie512
Originally posted by JediRobin23
wow, thats alot of argument. lucas obviously needed to connect the prequel trilogy written after 20 years

I think he did it in a poor way, though.

Charlie512
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
We can guess yet it would have been very stupid and incompetent of Yoda to go easy on Dooku considering what was at stake. Obi-Wan clearly told Anakin he cant stop Dooku alone and if Anakin helps him they can stop the war right now. If not Anakin would have been expelled from the Jedi Order.

Yes, it would be very incompetent. But look at the scene. Yoda never attacked Dooku with the force, all he did was deflect Dooku's attacks. Why wouldn't he attempt this like in his fight with Sidious (the force push)? So its not established that Dooku=Yoda in the force since Yoda never attacks back. Besides these are the prequels we are talking about characters do things that don't make sense all the time.

But still Yoda was clearly going to defeat Dooku before the distraction. My point being though Dooku clearly did have the strength to compete against him. Put up a fight at least, despite having centuries less combat experience.

Like I said. Yoda probably wasn't at his best in terms of combat power. He is old, it seems he doesn't see to much action as he just sends other Jedi to do tasks, there were no Sith before TPM so he may have slacked off on his sword training. Also there might be a peak of sword fighting skills that both he and Dooku might have reached. Dooku was a master of sword fighting its not that hard to believe he could match Yoda at that.

But yes Yoda definetely went all out against Sidious. But again with centuries more experience and sword fighting practice was unable to defeat him.

Yoda's experience means nothing because there were no Sith before, so Yoda would not have any extensive experience fighting Sith lords. You can say Sidious had as much experience in fighting Jedi than Yoda. Plus despite Yoda's age both have about the same amount of knowledge in their respective sides of the force. Therefore Yoda wouldn't hold an advantage in power. And just like you claimed Yoda was going to win against Dooku, Yoda was going to win against Sidious.


Well he wasn't a fully trained Knight yet, so probably could not apply/access that raw power anywhere near as effectively, if at all.

Neither was Luke but he had no problem accessing his raw power in Rotj.

Under the assumption he's less capable than AOTC Anakin then yes he wouldn't have a chance. But if he's like Jedi Knight Anakin from CW movie (not sure if that counts as EU?? Its technically a SW Movie) then maybe he'd have a chance right??

I don't think its officially EU. But I haven't seen it and pretty much ignore it. I wouldn't agree that we can use it here though because we are talking specifically about the films. Besides, I don't understand how Anakin goes from the incompetent guy in Aotc to a suddenly very effective war hero in such a short time between Aotc and the CW movie.

No Lucas has made it clear he was far less powerful after Mustafar. Master of the Dark Side is kind of hyperbole. Nothing that was mentioned in the movies. Was his Mastery of the Force greater than the Likes of Count Dooku?? I doubt it.

You don't know. He's been taught by Sidious for twice as long as Dooku was. Dooku was a Sith from the end of TPM to the start of Rots, that's around 13 years and I don't think they saw eadh other much since Dooku was busy with the CW . Vader had 20+ of Sith training/instruction. Plus, their force feats are similar. I don't see any reason to put Vader below Dooku.

Perhaps he just meant his knowledge of the force was greater. To be honest that line doesn't mean all that much. He's not exactly going to say "Im a weakling compared to what I was, so please take it easy on me.."
He was confident he could take Ben and even boasted his knew knowledge of the Dark Side. Why would he boast knowledge if it didn't come along with Power?

The fact is his younger self defeated someone considerably more powerful than Old Ben. That was Count Dooku. The fact that after all those years of Mastering the Dark Side he had trouble taking down Old Ben does not really help his case here.

This is done for dramatic purposes. There is no reason why a full-fledged Sith Lord should have any problems with a padawan in TPM yet it happens.

Nor does the fact that in the audio commentary of that scene Lucas says this fight is not as good compared to the PT ones because Vader is mostly machine and Ben an old man.

Which doesn't necessarily mean that they are weak it just means they have limited mobility.


I don't buy that. Dooku was a pure fencer, who has gone up against someone as powerful as Yoda. This idea that his style could not handle it comes from a line in the ROTS novel that says something like "his own elegant Makashi could not handle the striles of Djem So head on, especially while fending off another attacker.."

But as the fight becomes one on one and really heats up, the novel makes it perfectly clear the Only thing Dooku could not handle was Anakin's raw power.

I haven't really read the novel so I can't comment on that. But I think it most hold some water. If we take the even at face value and consider Anakin that powerful that powerful as to casually dispatch extremely powerful Sith lords than that elevates him to even more powerful than Sidious and Yoda, but he is clearly not yet as of the end of Rots. "Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us..."/B]

And like I mentioned above.. Lucas states in ANH Audio commentary that Vader does not fight as well now because he's mostly machine. Implying he's a lot worse in terms of a Lightsaber fight at least. Less mobile, much slower, e.t.c.


Agreed. Darth Vader is inferior to Anakin Skywalker in lightsaber combat, not necessarily less powerful overall.


And again Dooku had more "Force Knowledge" than Anakin, much much more. And Sidious had more "Force Knowledge" than Mace Windu. Much more, but the latter still beat him in a Lightsaber fight.


You are repeating the same things.
Force Knowledge /=/ Lightsaber skills. Sidious also had been too busy the whole PT to practice his lightsaber skills, while Mace had been busy using his in a war. Also note that Sidious would have defeated Windu in the force, however, Windu was able to stand a chance because he had a special form which allowed him to counter the Dark Side.



Ben says to Luke in ROTJ "The Emporer knew as well as I did, If Anakin were to have any offspring they would be a threat to him.."

In other words They had to keep them hidden. The Emporer sensed Luke's powers growing in ESB. But he was an adult by then. He was with the rebellion, able to try and escape the Empire if they came after him.

So I'm guessing they thought teaching Luke as a child would have just been far too risky. They did not want to alert the Emporer of his existence yet.

There is no evidence that training Luke would have allowed the Empire to find Luke. He trained all of ESB in Dagobah and then later presumably trained on his own between ESB and Rotj yet, Darth Vader and the Emperor are never able to find him. Plus Sidious had been training Maul before TPM without the Jedi knowing, why couldn't the Jedi do the same with Luke??


But Luke was the only one capable of making that shot. In all fights against the Empire after that the Rebellion had Force endowed pilot on their side.

That was obviously a powerful weapon they had on their side. I think that was much more useful really than being able to defeat Vader or the Emporer in a Lightsaber fight.

I think the point was there will always be flaws to exploit in technology. Which is why the Force was the real weapon and decider of who controlled the Galaxy.

Yoda and Ben never planned for Luke to join any rebellion to destroy the Empire. If they believed in an armed resistance the Empire, than they would have started one themselves. In fact, that's a good question why DIDN'T Ben and Yoda try to start some kind of armed resistance against Empire? The Jedi were willing to go to war with the Seperatists why not the Empire?


Well in the PT The Dark side seemed to be more powerful than the Light. Sidious blocked the Jedi vision completely so they had no idea what was coming. In AOTC Mace Windu says "I think we should inform the senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished.."

And Yoda says "Only the Dark Lord of the Sith knows of our weakness"

I think Anakin's prescence in the Force having the Force so strongly with him could have tipped the balance making the Light side stronger again. But problem was he was never truly attuned to the Light side was he?

Unlike Luke, whose prescence was clearly felt by the Emporer as a Disturbance in the Focre. And then it was the Emporer who could no longer see the future. He did not forsee Vader's betrayal or his own death.

It was the whole Balance of the Force shifting which is what I believe killed the Emporer in the end.


Agreed. But Yoda and Ben had no idea that the force would shift when they made their plan.

DARTH POWER
^ Maybe they did. Remember their whole hopes in the PT rested on The Chosen One restoring Balance to the Force.

In AOTC when Yoda is saying the Jedi are losing their way, even the older more experienced ones, Mace says to Obi-Wan "Remember if the Prophecy is true your apprentice is the only one who can restore balance to the Force.."

After Anakin's downfall they were hoping for Luke/Leia to do that.

queeq
You're forgetting that there is also doubt about how this prophecy is to be understood. Not all their hopes were resting on that prophecy.

DARTH POWER
Ok just re-watched ROTJ with the audio commentary and Lucas does say Luke is only half trained and not fully equipped to take on Vader..

*sigh* He's obviously just saying that to put things in line with the prequels. All the dialogue in the movie from Yoda, Vader and Luke himself suggest he was fully trained. Plus I have the original novel, and there was no hint of him not being fully trained. Quite the opposite. So again *sigh*

queeq
Yup, Lucas is changing everything after the fact.

DARTH POWER
Yeah well this one's annoyed me..

Yoda's line: No more training do you require. Vader's line: Your skills are now complete. Luke's line: Im a Jedi, like my father before me.

Every part of the novel points to the same thing..

Heck even the title of the movie says it!

Everything shows the original intention was for Luke to be a fully trained Knight.

And now that's changed. Just because.... it doesn't fit with the prequels Im assuming.

queeq
You assume well, my young apprentice.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by queeq
You assume well, my young apprentice.

Nooooooo!

queeq
Yes!

Kickballjedi
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ Lol Queeq, you blaming the PT? Im shocked!!!

But yeah I admit no one thought of Luke's training as being too fast before the PT..

It was quite clear in the OT when Yoda says to Luke "No more training do you require" and when Vader says to Luke "Your skills are now complete.."

This is true, but Yoda says this 4 years after ANH, I'm sure Luke continued his training after the duel with Vader, we see the results of that training in RoTJ, including the cut scene where he builds his new light saber.

But going back to Yoda's training in ESB, I think Yoda intended to train Luke for quite a bit longer, at least until Luke could've lifted the X-wing himself. If Yoda could've kept Luke on Dagobah for another year, for example, I'm sure he would've gone toe to toe with Vader when they next met.

And back to the OP- I don't believe Yoda and OB1 had a plan. IMO OB1 was just guarding Luke on Tatooine. I don't think he had a plan to train Luke to defeat Vader and/or the Emperor. Just keep him safe and let him live out his meager life on the dust ball planet. The rebellion, the message from Leia, the death of his adopted parents, these led to the decision to train him.

Kickballjedi
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah well this one's annoyed me..

Yoda's line: No more training do you require. Vader's line: Your skills are now complete. Luke's line: Im a Jedi, like my father before me.



I see a lot of quotes where Yoda says Luke doesn't need any more training, but as soon as Luke says "Then I am a Jedi", Yoda nearly coughs up a lung laughing at him, says something about training Jedi for 600 years, then says...

Yoda: No. Not yet. One thing remains. Vader. You must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi will you be. And confront him you will.

So by the time Luke says, "I am a Jedi like my father before me," he is a Jedi because he met Yoda's criteria by smacking down Vader.

DARTH POWER
Yeah problem is after watching the PT we know that's pretty impossible for Luke to have completed his training that quickly, especially with so little instruction.

Look a Anakin, the Chosen One, he had 10 years training under another Jedi by AOTC, and still wasn't a Jedi. Compared that to Luke's 4 years, with only a few weeks of supervision.

Makes no sense now, and Lucas has confirmed in the ROTJ commentary now that Luke wasn't fully trained.

queeq
And again: the PT ruined the OT.

Vensai
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah problem is after watching the PT we know that's pretty impossible for Luke to have completed his training that quickly, especially with so little instruction.

Look a Anakin, the Chosen One, he had 10 years training under another Jedi by AOTC, and still wasn't a Jedi. Compared that to Luke's 4 years, with only a few weeks of supervision.

Makes no sense now, and Lucas has confirmed in the ROTJ commentary now that Luke wasn't fully trained.
Where did he confirm that? It's nice to know that at least GL doesn't expect us to believe Luke could become a Knight with only some of the basics. Vader must have been seriously holding back against his son on the Death Star.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Vensai
Where did he confirm that?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Lucas has confirmed in the ROTJ commentary

Originally posted by Vensai
Vader must have been seriously holding back against his son on the Death Star. If you discount the novelization, yup.

queeq
But the novelization is canon.

Lord Lucien
F*ck the novelization. It's stupid.

He was giving it his all in the book. Makes more sense and fits in better with the emotional consistency if he wasn't.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Vensai
Where did he confirm that?

ROTJ Audio commentary in the scene where Luke visits Yoda.

Sadako of Girth
Originally posted by Vensai
Where did he confirm that? It's nice to know that at least GL doesn't expect us to believe Luke could become a Knight with only some of the basics. Vader must have been seriously holding back against his son on the Death Star.

He made the mistake of angering Luke over the Leia threat.
Luke seemed to be using the darkside, but was able to stop its flow when Vader was taken down, with his innate compassion.
Luke didnt need to be uber trained to get that far, in surviving against Vader long enough for the Emporer to start zapping him to death, provoking Anakin's return..
But the whole Luke ultimate Jedi warrior thing some fans riff on is silly and that Lucas had to spell that one out speaks volumes of their limited view of the whole saga dynamic. The picture was always bigger than that.
Luke was a piece on the board that was to draw decisive action from Anakin, forfilling the prophecy, and wasn't ever meant to be some Jedi Rambo that would single handedly kick all ass.

queeq
Well, yeah, that would be the post-PT explanation.

Vensai
Originally posted by queeq
Well, yeah, that would be the post-PT explanation.
Among other things, made the entire saga revolve around Anakin and led to various retcons to the novelisation.

Allankles
It was always obvious, if you didn't have rose tinted glasses, that after ESB Luke had almost no chance of saving the day by prowess in combat.

What Yoda gave him was enough understanding and confidence in the force to be a thorn in the side.

After ESB the rebels and Luke only had hope to fuel them, it was a huge gamble, that payed off, thanks mostly to the Force which is greater than Palps and Vader.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Allankles
It was always obvious, if you didn't have rose tinted glasses, that after ESB Luke had almost no chance of saving the day by prowess in combat.



He wasn't going to defeat the Emperor with his Lightsaber skills. Well not anytime soon anyway. That was made clear in ESB and ROTJ even before the PT.

But he clearly was a "Threat" since ANH. The guy destroyed the Death Star which people seem to keep forgetting. So even though we know the "plot device" will lead to a final Lightsaber confrontation where everything will be decided there, that wasn't the only way to be a threat to the Emperor. In the big scheme of things being a great Fencer should be pretty useless.

queeq
I dunno. He did beat Vader and Mace did beat Palpatine. They weren't unbeatable.

But of course, the whole point of Palpy's defeat is, however corny it may be, ... LOVE. Love between father and son. THat surpasses all knowledge of the Force. And actually, I always thought that was kinda neat. And not done in a corny way. I really missed that subtle touch of values in the PT.

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