Count Dooku Versus Revan

Battlemaster

Originally posted by Arhael
Revan didn't manage but was "reprogrammed". After that with no memories and spell from Vitiate he just acted like any person with good personality and sense of moral.

It goes beyond that.

Remember, after being reprogrammed by the Council and sent with Bastilla, Revan still had to face all the Darkness he himself had fostered in the known galaxy, and had to face his own dark past as Dork Lord of the Sith.
He was even given a chance to reclaim that mantle, and resisted the Dark side from within and without, and stayed to the light.

Dooku went through similar trials, symbolically, and failed where Revan succeeded.

Originally posted by Arhael

In terms of Force Revan is on Yoda level or maybe above.
But with lightsaber Dooku most likely takes it.

Not so sure. The Force does enhance a person's ability to wield a lightsaber to a degree, and Malak was enhanced by the Star Forge, and yet Revan still defeated him.

If we could say that Malak is at least even with RotS Anakin or slightly better, Revan still defeats Dooku.

Originally posted by Arhael

Also, Revan has got weakness. He uses both light and dark side powers. Although, it gives him several advantages, yet, it limits him from what true Jedi could be.

Hit the nail on the head here. It's actually a very insightful point.

Arhael

Originally posted by Battlemaster
It goes beyond that.

Remember, after being reprogrammed by the Council and sent with Bastilla, Revan still had to face all the Darkness he himself had fostered in the known galaxy, and had to face his own dark past as Dork Lord of the Sith.
He was even given a chance to reclaim that mantle, and resisted the Dark side from within and without, and stayed to the light.
During mandalorian war Revan killed a lot of people, it corrupted him and brought closer to dark side. Yet, he had high morals and would not be simply influenced by a Sith. Vitiate did not influence him, he mind dominated him and things Revan done during war made it much easier for him. So Revan didn't turn to dark side voluntarily.

With Dooku it is completely different case. He was a Jedi with decades of experience. He lost fate in republic system, weighted all ups and downs and chose darkside voluntarily. He didn't become Sith because of lust for power or seeking self-proclamation, he wanted a galaxy with strict order. So there is no weakness in his decision to become Sith lord, it's a matter of ideals.

It does but on a more thin level. It depends on emotional state, on how Force user draws on it, on how deeply he is attuned to it and how he understands the Force in general. Your example with Malak being enhanced by Star Forge just proves it. A Sith can become walking nexus of darkside power like Palpatine or Vitiate and still loose to a jedi knight.

You can't defeat darkness by darkness...

Battlemaster

Originally posted by Arhael
During mandalorian war Revan killed a lot of people, it corrupted him and brought closer to dark side. Yet, he had high morals and would not be simply influenced by a Sith. Vitiate did not influence him, he mind dominated him and things Revan done during war made it much easier for him. So Revan didn't turn to dark side voluntarily.

But he turned back to the light voluntarily.

Originally posted by Arhael

With Dooku it is completely different case. He was a Jedi with decades of experience. He lost fate in republic system, weighted all ups and downs and chose darkside voluntarily. He didn't become Sith because of lust for power or seeking self-proclamation, he wanted a galaxy with strict order. So there is no weakness in his decision to become Sith lord, it's a matter of ideals.

No, Dooku became a Sith to infiltrate the Order and kill off Darth Sidious.
His primary goal was the destruction of the Sith, from within, and if he had been powerful enough before Anakin killed him, he would have assassinated Sidious.

Like Ulic before him, when Dooku aligned himself with the Dark side, he ultimately became lost within it - even going so far as to turn away the advances of his old friend and Master Yoda, who had tried to turn him back to the light.

Dooku succumbed to the Darkness ultimately - where Revan emerged from it, back into the Light.

Originally posted by Arhael

It does but on a more thin level. It depends on emotional state, on how Force user draws on it, on how deeply he is attuned to it and how he understands the Force in general. Your example with Malak being enhanced by Star Forge just proves it. A Sith can become walking nexus of darkside power like Palpatine or Vitiate and still loose to a jedi knight.

Revan was a Jedi Master, and former Dark Lord of the Sith - no mere "Jedi Knight".

Revan defeated a incredibly powered and enhanced Malak because he was deadlier. Period.

Originally posted by Arhael

You can't defeat darkness by darkness...

Tell that to the folks who created the Riddick franchise. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Lord Lucien

Originally posted by Battlemaster
But he turned back to the light voluntarily.No, he didn't. He chose to stay on the Light Side once he was already there, but the catalyst for his redemption wasn't anywhere remotely of his own doing.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
No, Dooku became a Sith to infiltrate the Order and kill off Darth Sidious.
His primary goal was the destruction of the Sith, from within, and if he had been powerful enough before Anakin killed him, he would have assassinated Sidious.

Like Ulic before him, when Dooku aligned himself with the Dark side, he ultimately became lost within it - even going so far as to turn away the advances of his old friend and Master Yoda, who had tried to turn him back to the light.

Dooku succumbed to the Darkness ultimately - where Revan emerged from it, back into the Light.That has absolutely no bearing on combat prowess or strength in the Force. Strength of character maybe, but that's it. This is like saying that Vitiate, Nihilus, Bane, or Palpatine are weaker in power than Bastila, Juhani, and Maris Brood simply because they didn't swing the moral pendulum.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Revan was a Jedi Master, and former Dark Lord of the Sith - no mere "Jedi Knight".

Revan defeated a incredibly powered and enhanced Malak because he was deadlier. Period. And given every indication within the EU, Dooku is deadlier than either of them. Period.

Arhael

No, Dooku became a Sith to infiltrate the Order and kill off Darth Sidious.
His primary goal was the destruction of the Sith, from within, and if he had been powerful enough before Anakin killed him, he would have assassinated Sidious.
"Following the death of Qui-Gon at the hands of Darth Maul, Dooku finally left the Order and spoke to Palpatine about his plans to become Count of Serenno and to seek a potential alliance with the Sith, as he believed that they shared his aim to reforge the galaxy. Dooku had given some thought to hunting down the hidden second Sith in revenge for Qui-Gon's death, but concluded that even eliminating both Sith would not halt what he felt was the inevitable advance of the dark side."

"Shortly after their meeting on Coruscant, Dooku was approached directly by Darth Sidious. They had a long discussion, and Dooku found that Palpatine's goals were not dissimilar to his own."

Quotes from wookieepedia. Probably it's not very reliable but could you, please, show any source, where it says that Dooku infiltrated Sith Order to eliminate it from within? His turn to dark side was logical conclusion backed up by long experience, nothing to do with lust for power and selfishness. He wasn't anything like Palpatine or other ancient Sith. Even, when he incapacitated Kenobi and Anakin, there was no hint of enjoying it, he even looked sad.

Lucien already answered it...

And ultimately failed against Vitiate with his fancy practicing of both light and dark powers. It was Revan's opinion that Sith Emperor will be defeated by "Champion of the light side". Saying that Revan was more powerful than Malak imbued by Star Forge is as absurd as saying that Jedi knight was more powerful than Vitiate imbued by millions of lives consumed from his home planet. It's not power that grands victory.

Battlemaster

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
No, he didn't. He chose to stay on the Light Side once he was already there, but the catalyst for his redemption wasn't anywhere remotely of his own doing.

Arguable.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien

That has absolutely no bearing on combat prowess or strength in the Force. Strength of character maybe, but that's it. This is like saying that Vitiate, Nihilus, Bane, or Palpatine are weaker in power than Bastila, Juhani, and Maris Brood simply because they didn't swing the moral pendulum.

True. But it's just part of our discussion.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien

And given every indication within the EU, Dooku is deadlier than either of them. Period.

Speculation.

Lord Lucien

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Arguable.Inarguable. Unless you think Revan was having a change of heart prior to Malak's betrayal, Bastila's assault, and the Council's decision to re-program his mind. Or are you saying that those were all his decisions?

Originally posted by Battlemaster
True. But it's just part of our discussion.And a herring of tree-chopping proportions.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Speculation. Factulation. Revan's still quite the Unknown. The novel and game hasn't given us much else to work on.

Battlemaster

Originally posted by Arhael
"Following the death of Qui-Gon at the hands of Darth Maul, Dooku finally left the Order and spoke to Palpatine about his plans to become Count of Serenno and to seek a potential alliance with the Sith, as he believed that they shared his aim to reforge the galaxy. Dooku had given some thought to hunting down the hidden second Sith in revenge for Qui-Gon's death, but concluded that even eliminating both Sith would not halt what he felt was the inevitable advance of the dark side."

"Shortly after their meeting on Coruscant, Dooku was approached directly by Darth Sidious. They had a long discussion, and Dooku found that Palpatine's goals were not dissimilar to his own."

Quotes from wookieepedia. Probably it's not very reliable but could you, please, show any source, where it says that Dooku infiltrated Sith Order to eliminate it from within? His turn to dark side was logical conclusion backed up by long experience, nothing to do with lust for power and selfishness. He wasn't anything like Palpatine or other ancient Sith. Even, when he incapacitated Kenobi and Anakin, there was no hint of enjoying it, he even looked sad.

Wookieepedia isn't very reliable.

The PT movies themselves made it pretty clear that Dooku had been tainted by the need for power and selfishness, and as I think some veteran debators here likely know, Dooku had plans to off Sidious as soon as he had enough power and the right timing to do so.

In the beginning, Dooku might have been motivated by political ideals - however, this particular drive did not last long. Dooku ultimately found a need to gain more power within the Force, and crush the Sith.

Originally posted by Arhael

Lucien already answered it...

Revan's willingness to stick to the light, lends to his moral discipline, amongst other things - something Dooku, even with help from Yoda, failed to have.

That's the point.

Originally posted by Arhael

And ultimately failed against Vitiate with his fancy practicing of both light and dark powers. It was Revan's opinion that Sith Emperor will be defeated by "Champion of the light side". Saying that Revan was more powerful than Malak imbued by Star Forge is as absurd as saying that Jedi knight was more powerful than Vitiate imbued by millions of lives consumed from his home planet. It's not power that grands victory.

If Revan hadn't been more powerful than a Star Forge-enhanced Malak, then there wouldn't be a novel about his current exploits.

It is true that power does not grant victory - but rather how said power, is used.

Revan is evidenced to be a savvy fighter, with both a lightsaber and the Force.

As another well-seasoned debator already pointed out previously here, Revan could easily handle Dooku's lightning and other powers.

Battlemaster

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Inarguable. Unless you think Revan was having a change of heart prior to Malak's betrayal, Bastila's assault, and the Council's decision to re-program his mind. Or are you saying that those were all his decisions?

I'm speaking of after the fact.

Revan faced the demons he had knowingly created during his time as Dark Lord, and during his quest to locate the Star Forge had opportunities to fall back to the Dark side, but didn't

Originally posted by Lord Lucien

Factulation. Revan's still quite the Unknown. The novel and game hasn't given us much else to work on.

Except that he has Force powers that apparently put him on par with Yoda, in the eyes of many great debators here.

Lord Lucien

Originally posted by Battlemaster
I'm speaking of after the fact.

Revan faced the demons he had knowingly created during his time as Dark Lord, and during his quest to locate the Star Forge had opportunities to fall back to the Dark side, but didn't And that's what I said: "He chose to stay on the Light Side once he was already there, but the catalyst for his redemption wasn't anywhere remotely of his own doing." Something he himself admitted.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Except that he has Force powers that apparently put him on par with Yoda, in the eyes of many great debators here. To some. Others also put Marka Ragnos' powers on par with no one. Fact is, Revan's got a lot of story, and lots of gameplay mechanics, but few specifics in his combative abilities. Dooku's got much more and it's a very impressive resume.

Arhael

Wookieepedia isn't very reliable.
Any sources to support your points? So far I red over 70 novels and wookieepedia described them surprisingly reliably.

This is absolutely normal for Sith and is actually part of Rule of Two philosophy.

Did he use any Sith sorcery to increase his powers like Palpatine? Did he take joy in killing innocents just for fun sake? He was ruthless but he killed and did other horrible things only, when necessary and without pleasure.

Ah? Revan is more powerful, than Malak but, not, when imbued by Star Forge.

This is basically explanation of why Revan won.

Absorbing lightning is simply a Force technique, which is a very rare talent but does not indicate how powerful user is.

Ones again, he didn't have choice to become Sith, he was mind dominated. And he didn't have choice to abandon Sith ways, he was memory wiped. While retracing Star Forge he had choice of who he is to be. In novel he remembered everything but darkside taking over was out of question, since he had pregnant wife waiting for him at home.

Dr McBeefington

Dooku may win with sabers but he gets wtfpwned with the force.

S_W_LeGenD

Count Dooku is outgunned. Revan will destroy him.

Also, no need to underestimate Revan in lightsaber combat either. He is very acrobatic and his precognition abilities are amazing.

Nephthys

Well that certainly puts him on Dooku's level. no expression

Battlemaster

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
And that's what I said: "He chose to stay on the Light Side once he was already there, but the catalyst for his redemption wasn't anywhere remotely of his own doing." Something he himself admitted.

True. My apologies. It was the morning; I was tired.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien

To some. Others also put Marka Ragnos' powers on par with no one. Fact is, Revan's got a lot of story, and lots of gameplay mechanics, but few specifics in his combative abilities. Dooku's got much more and it's a very impressive resume.

Perhaps. Perhaps not.

Battlemaster

Originally posted by Arhael
Any sources to support your points? So far I red over 70 novels and wookieepedia described them surprisingly reliably.

Don't be too proud of that technological terror they've constructed.

Originally posted by Arhael

This is absolutely normal for Sith and is actually part of Rule of Two philosophy.

Mhm, I know.

Originally posted by Arhael

Did he use any Sith sorcery to increase his powers like Palpatine? Did he take joy in killing innocents just for fun sake? He was ruthless but he killed and did other horrible things only, when necessary and without pleasure.

I remember a few times he seemed to enjoy punishing people.

He was also proud; self-righteousness is actually a subtle trait derived from evil.

Originally posted by Arhael

Ah? Revan is more powerful, than Malak but, not, when imbued by Star Forge.

That must be why Revan lost to him.

Originally posted by Arhael

This is basically explanation of why Revan won.

Mhm.

Originally posted by Arhael

Absorbing lightning is simply a Force technique, which is a very rare talent but does not indicate how powerful user is.

A person's capabilities do demonstrate how powerful they are.

Originally posted by Arhael

Ones again, he didn't have choice to become Sith, he was mind dominated. And he didn't have choice to abandon Sith ways, he was memory wiped. While retracing Star Forge he had choice of who he is to be. In novel he remembered everything but darkside taking over was out of question, since he had pregnant wife waiting for him at home.

Revan had Bastilla to be his anchor, and Dooku had Yoda, and knew it.

And Dooku still failed where Revan succeeded.

Battlemaster

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Count Dooku is outgunned. Revan will destroy him.

Also, no need to underestimate Revan in lightsaber combat either. He is very acrobatic and his precognition abilities are amazing.

I think it would be a close fight, but Revan would definitely overcome him.

It would be a great fight to see. wink

Batman-Prime

Dooku, one of the very best.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Dooku, one of the very best.

thumb up

Good man!

Arhael

I remember a few times he seemed to enjoy punishing people.

He was also proud; self-righteousness is actually a subtle trait derived from evil.
Any examples, where he "enjoyed" punishing? He was ruthless and merciless. And he punished for failures to make an example out of them and to insure their competence. Very same way as Vader was Force choking mofs.

It is true, when it comes to lifting objects and other heavy concentrations. Otherwise person's capabilities show how talented they are and how they can use power they have and I can give you dozens of examples proving it.
The very concept of being Jedi is not overpowering others but be in total self-control, clear-headed and in harmony with the Force. And that is why Jedi can confront enemies that seem to have limitless power.

Didn't know that Dooku had crush on Yoda...

Their personalities and circumstances of their stories are too different even to consider what is failure and what is success.

Battlemaster

Originally posted by Arhael
Any examples, where he "enjoyed" punishing? He was ruthless and merciless. And he punished for failures to make an example out of them and to insure their competence. Very same way as Vader was Force choking mofs.

Killing and punishing with apathetic indifference is just as bad as taking joy in it.

But thank you for proving my point, in any case.

Originally posted by Arhael

It is true, when it comes to lifting objects and other heavy concentrations. Otherwise person's capabilities show how talented they are and how they can use power they have and I can give you dozens of examples proving it.
The very concept of being Jedi is not overpowering others but be in total self-control, clear-headed and in harmony with the Force. And that is why Jedi can confront enemies that seem to have limitless power.

Correct.

Originally posted by Arhael

Didn't know that Dooku had crush on Yoda...

Just imagine how dirty their porno would be. stick out tongue

In all seriousness, I had not played KotoR in ages, and I forgot about the Force Bond thing between Revan and Bastilla.

Her staunched connection to the light helped him to not fall back to the Dark side.

With Dooku and Yoda, Yoda had made attempts to forgive Dooku and bring him back to the light, and for a long time refused to give up on the chance he could be redeemed.

When the little green Grandmaster is pulling for you - it's hard to do otherwise. wink

Originally posted by Arhael

Their personalities and circumstances of their stories are too different even to consider what is failure and what is success.

I would say Revan is a stronger person, overall.

I haven't read the new Novel, yet. But from what I've heard, it sounds as if he really is pacifistic, after everything he has been through.

- When the hitmen cornered him, he even tried to talk them out of fighting, as a non-violent solution.

Considering they were still alive to even corner him at that point, it's a good bet he probably tried to not kill them, if possible.

The other thing that gets me, is why people don't seem to understand why Revan is called "The Heart of the Force" and how he actually is the Heart of the Force.

Revan is the Force's expression of desiring balance, and even Revan's hesitation to kill shows the Force's compassion in matters.

Though, considering how Lucas has weaved things, this obscure truth might be difficult for most fans to sort out, when looking for the answer.

A good friend of mine plays ToR and she related to me that Revan's true identity and personality seemed very unremarkable.

But I would have to say otherwise - where they could have made Revan into some Gung-ho swaggering hero with insane amounts of power at his disposal - instead they made a small, deadly humble little man, with the great ability to kill, but a heart unwilling to make the unnecessary transgression.

Arhael

I didn't try to say that it is less horrible. What I mean is that Sith like Palpatie by torturing people enjoy and feed on their suffering and fear making himself more powerful that way. Dooku did that only as necessity. He was described as humanocentrist . Palpatine is evil by nature but Dooku is an opposing politician who happened to have Force powers.

Revan is simply more suited to be Jedi and much kinder person. Both Revan and Dooku wanted better galaxy but because of difference in their personalities they chose opposite ways.

Nah, he is activist all his life. He went against Order and chose violent solution to end Mandalorian war. In novel he kept seeing in his dreams a planet from his erased memories and went to unexplored regions to fight evil on his own.

Could you, please, elaborate on that?

That is how any Jedi supposed to behave or any kind hearted person would hestiate.

Partially Revan got much closer to what true Jedi should be. Specifically, he was above all other Jedi because he believed that for Jedi to embrace love is as important as for Sith - hatred.
But it was his flaw to believe that it is normal to use both light and darkside powers. The darkside brings unbalance. Such Force understanding reminds of Verger teachings and she was Sith. That is the main reason he lost to Vitiate. In terms of power he is in the top list but he couldn't embrace himself fully in light, when it was most needed.

Battlemaster

Originally posted by Arhael
I didn't try to say that it is less horrible. What I mean is that Sith like Palpatie by torturing people enjoy and feed on their suffering and fear making himself more powerful that way. Dooku did that only as necessity. He was described as humanocentrist . Palpatine is evil by nature but Dooku is an opposing politician who happened to have Force powers.

Ki-Adi-Mundi believed that too, initially.

He turned out to be very wrong.

Originally posted by Arhael

Revan is simply more suited to be Jedi and much kinder person. Both Revan and Dooku wanted better galaxy but because of difference in their personalities they chose opposite ways.

Dooku succumbed to his situation, whereas Revan rose above it, albeit with some help.

Originally posted by Arhael

Nah, he is activist all his life. He went against Order and chose violent solution to end Mandalorian war. In novel he kept seeing in his dreams a planet from his erased memories and went to unexplored regions to fight evil on his own.
Originally posted by Battlemaster
it sounds as if he really is pacifistic, after everything he has been through.

Originally posted by Arhael

Could you, please, elaborate on that?

Read what I had to say about it, until the concept sinks in.

Originally posted by Arhael

That is how any Jedi supposed to behave or any kind hearted person would hestiate.

No.

Even when facing a group of foes, the Grandmaster of the Order, Yoda, did not hesitate to kill them.

Don't downplay Revan's revelation.

Originally posted by Arhael

Partially Revan got much closer to what true Jedi should be. Specifically, he was above all other Jedi because he believed that for Jedi to embrace love is as important as for Sith - hatred.
But it was his flaw to believe that it is normal to use both light and darkside powers. The darkside brings unbalance. Such Force understanding reminds of Verger teachings and she was Sith. That is the main reason he lost to Vitiate. In terms of power he is in the top list but he couldn't embrace himself fully in light, when it was most needed.

Incorrect. The Dark side does not bring unbalance - the Force needs the presence of the Dark side in the universe to remain balanced.

But the Force does what It will to further It's plans.

Arhael

Dooku succumbed to his situation, whereas Revan rose above it, albeit with some help.
And again it is about different ideals, which has nothing to do with weakness. Dooku became Sith as logical conclusion, not by having his mind twisted or deceived. Dooku reminds me more about Jacen Solo, who wasn't weak person at all and was looking at things from very major scale, he was too pragmatic.

Emm, I hope you are not talking about situation with clones. There are different situations, where they have a chance to talk and where they don't. I can give you lots of examples, when Yoda gives plenty of chances before fighting but I find it pointless. Saying that Yoda is more ruthless and less pacifistic is just pathetic.
Yoda was way more pacifistic. He preferred to hide at Dagobar, when Revan always ran into deep of the fight without consulting others or against their agreement. Although, in novel there was big tension between him and Jedi council, yet, he didn't even attempt to share his worries with them and try to persuade them to form an expedition or any other solution He preferred to take this tall on his own, which kind of shows him as being reckless.
I, also, forgot to mention what he has done at Malachor V, while being Jedi, which was not only not pacifistic but was against everything that Jedi believed in.
Ah and in novel there is a cool moment, when he got his memories fully back. Phrase to member of Sith council: "I am Revan Reborn and for me you are nothing". Very pacifistic and non-provoking!

"The presence of the dark side corrupts and destroys this natural balance, and the Jedi viewed it as their duty to restore it."
"It would later come to pass that Anakin Skywalker would fulfill the prophecy of the Chosen One by temporarily killing one of the last of the Sith in 4 ABY"
Quotes are from here: Chosen one

Now here is my explanation. Force balance - it is, when things go as they should without interference, it is natural way of life.
Jedi use Force as guidance, they trust the Force and do according to its will.
Sith on the other hand use the Force for their own benefit. They abuse it and by their actions cause huge disturbances in the Force. They don't follow the will of the Force, they follow their ambition, which results in natural balance being toppled.

Battlemaster

Originally posted by Arhael
And again it is about different ideals, which has nothing to do with weakness. Dooku became Sith as logical conclusion, not by having his mind twisted or deceived. Dooku reminds me more about Jacen Solo, who wasn't weak person at all and was looking at things from very major scale, he was too pragmatic.

And yet Dooku knew the Sith were intrinsically evil and wrong.

At some point, it became somewhat obvious that he had been sucked in to their ways, and he died because of it.

Revan, rose.

Originally posted by Arhael

Emm, I hope you are not talking about situation with clones. There are different situations, where they have a chance to talk and where they don't. I can give you lots of examples, when Yoda gives plenty of chances before fighting but I find it pointless. Saying that Yoda is more ruthless and less pacifistic is just pathetic.
Yoda was way more pacifistic. He preferred to hide at Dagobar, when Revan always ran into deep of the fight without consulting others or against their agreement. Although, in novel there was big tension between him and Jedi council, yet, he didn't even attempt to share his worries with them and try to persuade them to form an expedition or any other solution He preferred to take this tall on his own, which kind of shows him as being reckless.
I, also, forgot to mention what he has done at Malachor V, while being Jedi, which was not only not pacifistic but was against everything that Jedi believed in.
Ah and in novel there is a cool moment, when he got his memories fully back.

I'm speaking of the events of the ToR game, which are after KotoR and the novel, where he has clearly experienced an epiphany and is seemingly more reluctant to take a life.

Also, it's "Dagobah" not "Dagobar", and Yoda only went there to escape being killed - not because he was pacifistic.

Originally posted by Arhael

Phrase to member of Sith council: "I am Revan Reborn and for me you are nothing". Very pacifistic and non-provoking!

He's just stating who he is. wink

Originally posted by Arhael

"The presence of the dark side corrupts and destroys this natural balance, and the Jedi viewed it as their duty to restore it."
"It would later come to pass that Anakin Skywalker would fulfill the prophecy of the Chosen One by temporarily killing one of the last of the Sith in 4 ABY"
Quotes are from here: Chosen one

Now here is my explanation. Force balance - it is, when things go as they should without interference, it is natural way of life.
Jedi use Force as guidance, they trust the Force and do according to its will.
Sith on the other hand use the Force for their own benefit. They abuse it and by their actions cause huge disturbances in the Force. They don't follow the will of the Force, they follow their ambition, which results in natural balance being toppled.

I think you're overlooking some things.

The specific "imbalance" does not pertain to the Dark side's relationship with the Force in general - but of the occurrence in which Plagueis and Palpatine did their little ritual to set the Force off-keel, in favor of the Dark side.

The Dark side's presence does not automatically mean or generate imbalance within the Force - and in contrast, if the Light side were too strong in the galaxy, that would cause an imbalance.

Generally, a very evil Sith utilizing the Dark side of the Force to fullfil his own ends might cause a disturbance in the Force - that is, a ripple.
But it wouldn't cause an imbalance like your thinking.

Anakin's prophecy was to correct the imbalance to the Force that Palpatine and Plagueis had caused. That's all.

Don't confuse this with other Dark side disturbances that had happened previously in the galaxy.

DARTH POWER

^ This is where the eu is messed up. Lucas made it clear bringing balance to the force was getting rid of the dark side.

Battlemaster

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ This is where the eu is messed up. Lucas made it clear bringing balance to the force was getting rid of the dark side.

Right - essentially ending the Sith, once and for all.

Then they brought about the One Sith garbage, which completely defeats the point of Anakin's rise and fall, etc.

Very Retarded. Lucas has pretty much sold Star Wars out, now.

Arhael

Revan, rose.
Nope. Revan got mind dominated and consumed by darkness. Then broke free from Vitiate's spell but started his own agenda. He failed to turn back to light himself and as the result later got mind wiped. So they both failed to turn back to light. It's just Revan's different circumstances gifted him second chance.

Still doesn't prove that he is more pacifistic, than Yoda. If you want a real example of pacifistic Jedi, then it is Dorsk 83. He knew that he was going to be killed, could easily take that person down even without killing but he just allowed being killed.

Agree, the darkside presence does not cause imbalance automatically. But you said that "the Force needs the presence of the Dark side in the universe to remain balanced". No the Force doesn't need it. The darkside exists regardless of will of the Force like crime, corrupted politicizations, conflicts, wars and other negative stuff. There were more darksiders apart from Vader and Palpatine at the time, yet, it was them dominating the Galaxy, making it suffer, creating chaos and therefore imbalance.

If it causes majority of galaxy suffering - that is imbalance.

That is impossible. Jedi can maximum achieve balance but they can't change people to be good, when they are bad by nature. There will always be countless conflicts and other bad things happening in the galaxy no matter what Jedi do, you can't enforce piece. However, Sith by dominating can increase galaxy suffering to enormous level, which affect balance of normal day to day life. Because of darkside such people like Plagueis and Palpatine existed, that is why I said it creates imbalance.

Don't you realize that piece ones and for all is an utopia? The point of Anakins's rise and fall is not defeated, it's just nothing lasts forever.

Battlemaster

Originally posted by Arhael
Nope. Revan got mind dominated and consumed by darkness. Then broke free from Vitiate's spell but started his own agenda. He failed to turn back to light himself and as the result later got mind wiped. So they both failed to turn back to light. It's just Revan's different circumstances gifted him second chance.

Sure.

Originally posted by Arhael

Still doesn't prove that he is more pacifistic, than Yoda. If you want a real example of pacifistic Jedi, then it is Dorsk 83. He knew that he was going to be killed, could easily take that person down even without killing but he just allowed being killed.

roll eyes (sarcastic)

Originally posted by Arhael

Agree, the darkside presence does not cause imbalance automatically. But you said that "the Force needs the presence of the Dark side in the universe to remain balanced". No the Force doesn't need it. The darkside exists regardless of will of the Force like crime, corrupted politicizations, conflicts, wars and other negative stuff. There were more darksiders apart from Vader and Palpatine at the time, yet, it was them dominating the Galaxy, making it suffer, creating chaos and therefore imbalance.

You really don't understand the concept of the nature of the imbalance Palpatine and Plageuis had created, do you?

General suffering wrought in the galaxy by Dark siders, does not create the imbalance we're talking about.

And it was Plageuis and Palpatine that created that imbalance - not Vader.

Originally posted by Arhael

No the Force doesn't need it.

Yes, it does.

The Force needs both sides to exist and be in balance.

You really need to learn more about the Force.

Originally posted by Arhael

If it causes majority of galaxy suffering - that is imbalance.

But not the kind of specific imbalance to the Force we're talking about.

Originally posted by Arhael

That is impossible. Jedi can maximum achieve balance but they can't change people to be good, when they are bad by nature. There will always be countless conflicts and other bad things happening in the galaxy no matter what Jedi do, you can't enforce piece.

I was speaking a hypothetical. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Originally posted by Arhael

However, Sith by dominating can increase galaxy suffering to enormous level, which affect balance of normal day to day life. Because of darkside such people like Plagueis and Palpatine existed, that is why I said it creates imbalance.

No, they created the specific actual type of imbalance we're discussing, through a ritual, and not by increasing suffering of people.

You really need to learn more about the Force.

I feel like I'm discussing this with a neophyte.

Originally posted by Arhael

Don't you realize that piece ones and for all is an utopia? The point of Anakins's rise and fall is not defeated, it's just nothing lasts forever.

How old are you?

Nephthys

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Sure.

He's actually right. Its all in Revan, the novel.

In fact, for your information the last time we see Revan in SWTOR he's raving like a lunatic and attempting to genocide the citizens of the Empire. How the mighty hath fallen.

Battlemaster

Originally posted by Nephthys
He's actually right. Its all in Revan, the novel.

In fact, for your information the last time we see Revan in SWTOR he's raving like a lunatic and attempting to genocide the citizens of the Empire. How the mighty hath fallen.

I thought he had been cornered by those Mercs and vanished with the aid of Fold Space?

EDIT: Now he'll be like, "Ha, u see? now me gots u. Y don pecerpate me Anakim in Dagobar wit Yoda n Reven."

roll eyes (sarcastic)

Lord Lucien

Originally posted by Battlemaster
I thought he had been cornered by those Mercs and vanished with the aid of Fold Space?

EDIT: Now he'll be like, "Ha, u see? now me gots u. Y don pecerpate me Anakim in Dagobar wit Yoda n Reven."

roll eyes (sarcastic)

Don't give Bioware any ideas. They've already Yoda'd up the KotOR era with Vandar and Oteg, give 'em half a chance and I'm sure some canon-hating writer at the office will petition Lucas for access to Anakin.

Battlemaster

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Don't give Bioware any ideas. They've already Yoda'd up the KotOR era with Vandar and Oteg, give 'em half a chance and I'm sure some canon-hating writer at the office will petition Lucas for access to Anakin.

Oh, I know. Those writers are seriously ****ing idiots.

Star Wars doesn't have a soul anymore.confused

Lord Lucien

Its soul was dented with TPM, buffed out by Jedi Outcast, re-dented by AotC, buffed and shined with Jedi Academy and KotOR, spat on by RotS, cracked by Legacy and TFU, splintered by The Clone Wars and TFU II, and now finally shattered by TOR and FotJ.

Good times, good times...

Arhael

You really don't understand the concept of the nature of the imbalance Palpatine and Plageuis had created, do you?

General suffering wrought in the galaxy by Dark siders, does not create the imbalance we're talking about.

And it was Plageuis and Palpatine that created that imbalance - not Vader.
Yes, I don't understand "the concept". Because by ritual they created Anakin, not imbalance. Any source stating that it was actually their dark ritual that created imbalance? I didn't find any.

Vader restored balance. How? By killing the Sith. Why? Because they were the cause of imbalance.

Ones again, the darkside is not something the Force needs. It is when an evil person starts using Force to commit evil things. The darkside creates imbalance by giving evil beings the power to cause chaos.

After reading over 70 books I know more, than enough about the Force. Prove your points before criticizing someones knowledge.

Your feelings betray you. And I still have no clue, where you got information that it is "a ritual" causes imbalance.

Enough old to invite you for a date wink

Lord Lucien

12 year olds are "enough old" to ask for dates.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Arhael Nope. Revan got mind dominated and consumed by darkness.
Revan already got immense exposure to the dark side prior to meeting Vitiate. Hint: Malachor V.

Originally posted by Arhael Then broke free from Vitiate's spell but started his own agenda.
Yes.

Originally posted by Arhael He failed to turn back to light himself and as the result later got mind wiped.
He had plans against the True Sith. Hint: KOTOR 2.

Originally posted by Arhael So they both failed to turn back to light. It's just Revan's different circumstances gifted him second chance.
Revan rejected the Sith philosophy during revelation phase after his mind wipe. He again rejected Bastilla's offers of joining the Sith, even though he was in love with her. This shows his self-control. Even during his captivity on Dromund Kaas, Revan maintained great self-control despite being heavily drugged and tortured. Time and again, Revan proved that he was not the one to be controlled or manipulated for long, which is unlike the case of Count Dooku.

Revan planned his own game. He was neither a lapdog of Jedi and nor the Sith.

Battlemaster

Originally posted by Arhael
Yes, I don't understand "the concept". Because by ritual they created Anakin, not imbalance. Any source stating that it was actually their dark ritual that created imbalance? I didn't find any.

I believe it's from Palpy's novel. Granted I haven't graced its pages myself, but I've found various knowledgeable debators around these parts, quoting from it.

Originally posted by Arhael

Vader restored balance. How? By killing the Sith. Why? Because they were the cause of imbalance.

Yeah - Palpatine at that point, specifically. For the imbalance he and his Master created, and not any Sith before or after.

Originally posted by Arhael

Ones again, the darkside is not something the Force needs. It is when an evil person starts using Force to commit evil things. The darkside creates imbalance by giving evil beings the power to cause chaos.

You keep tripping over the same erroneous statement.

The Dark side does not create the imbalance we're talking about through mere chaos. The imbalance we're talking about, stems from Palpy and co. use of Sith bullshittery against the Force.

Originally posted by Arhael

After reading over 70 books I know more, than enough about the Force. Prove your points before criticizing someones knowledge.

How about proving through your posts that your above statement can hold it's water.

Which you've proven, it can't.

Originally posted by Arhael

Your feelings betray you. And I still have no clue, where you got information that it is "a ritual" causes imbalance.

So much for the 70 books' worth of book learnin'.

All the study in the world of a certain topic doesn't help, if you can't interpret it correctly.

Originally posted by Arhael

Enough old to invite you for a date wink

.

I'd probably go out with Nepthys, seeing as how he's so sweet.

(And no, I don't mean that sarcastically.)

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Revan rejected the Sith philosophy during revelation phase after his mind wipe. He again rejected Bastilla's offers of joining the Sith, even though he was in love with her. This shows his self-control. Even during his captivity on Dromund Kaas, Revan maintained great self-control despite being heavily drugged and tortured. Time and again, Revan proved that he was not the one to be controlled or manipulated for long, which is unlike the case of Count Dooku.

Revan planned his own game. He was neither a lapdog of Jedi and nor the Sith.

This.

Arhael

I believe it's from Palpy's novel. Granted I haven't graced its pages myself, but I've found various knowledgeable debators around these parts, quoting from it.
So it is your point of view, not the fact.

The prophecy was foretold long before that, which puts in question, when exactly balance was broken.
"It was this conscious choice that fulfilled the Prophecy and brought a temporary balance to the Force. Skywalker killed Sidious at the cost of his own life, and in doing so, fulfilled the prophecy by destroying the Sith leadership, his Master's original body and himself"
Wookiepedia is, also, based on knowledgeable debaters, which makes my arguments equal to yours in weight.

Palpy exists because of darkside. "Sith bullshittery against the Force" was done using the darkside by the darksider. How darkside is not responsible? Balance was restored by removing Sith as they were the source of imbalance. If it was ritual, then killing Sith wouldn't sort the problem. And it is stated that Luke is to maintain the balance, which means that it can be easily broken and ritual is not an easy thing to perform.

We are just people with different opinions sharing our views. At least I understand that it would be rude judging someones knowledge simply because their opinion is different.

Glad that I was catalyst to your small confession. )

As if I don't know it. My point was that after being consumed by darkside with broken spell he hadn't refused it.

So? Does it change the fact that he was consumed by darkness?

What was offering that "Sith Philosophy? Only pointless lust for power and meaningless war and destruction. Compare it to how Palpatine, Vergere and Lumya were able to manipulate and influence. Kreya was the only Sith to sound logical and convincing in Old Republic, others were just typical "Join the darkside, it will give you power" boys. In case with Dooku he wasn't controlled or manipulated, he was convinced and then planned his own agenda like Revan.

Nor the Sith? blink

Nephthys

"The shift had been the outcome of months of intense meditation, during which Plagueis and Sidious had sought to challenge the Force for sovereignty and suffuse the galaxy with the power of the dark side. Brazen and shameless, and at their own mortal peril, they had waged etheric war, anticipating that their own midi-chlorians, the Force's proxy army, might marshal to boil their blood or stop the beating of their hearts. Risen out of themselves, discorporate and as a single entity, they had brought the power of their will to bear, asserting their sovereignty over the Force. No counterforce had risen against them. In what amounted to a state of rapture they knew that the Force had yielded, as if some deity had been tipped from its throne. On the fulcrum they had fashioned, the light side had dipped and the dark side had ascended."

- The Unbalancing of the Force.

Plagueis and Sidious used a ritual to place the Dark side in ascendancy.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Arhael
As if I don't know it.
You mention the whole point. It spares us needless exertions.

Originally posted by Arhael
My point was that after being consumed by darkside with broken spell he hadn't refused it.
Revan was young at that time. He still had much to learn.

Originally posted by Arhael
So? Does it change the fact that he was consumed by darkness?
Any your point is? Don't just focus on his reign as the Lord of the Sith.

Focus on what he did later on when he was more mature; the time of revelation and afterwards.

Can you imagine the anger of being used as a tool and by those whom you care about? You realize that you were once a big name in the Galaxy and immensely feared and now you are nothing but a pawn? This was the mental state of Revan during the time of revelation. Revan had choice: re-embrace his former identity or start fresh. He chose the latter. But the game was not over yet. The very person he loved turned to the dark side and wanted him to embrace it again. Then their was the STAR FORGE whose power would have corrupted or seduced any individual. But Revan rejected all of these temptations. This is the example you should be focusing on.

Originally posted by Arhael
What was offering that "Sith Philosophy? Only pointless lust for power and meaningless war and destruction. Compare it to how Palpatine, Vergere and Lumya were able to manipulate and influence. Kreya was the only Sith to sound logical and convincing in Old Republic, others were just typical "Join the darkside, it will give you power" boys.
Sith philosophy have been the same since its beginning.

This is the code that every Sith abides by:

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

Sith philosophy is about power and personal ambitions - in case you forgot. In contrast, Jedi are selfless.

Malak was true to the Sith ideals. He was ruthless and wanted to rule the Galaxy. Sidious also had similar ambitions but his tactics were different in the beginning.

Kriea was an idiot. She wanted to destroy the Force.

Vergere was manipulative but she was not the Galaxy ruling type material.

Originally posted by Arhael
Nor the Sith? blink

He proclaimed himself Sith Lord and Malak his apprentice. He raged war against republic in attempt to establish full control over it. He created Sith holocron, which Bane found more useful and logical, than entire Sith history. Even his soldiers were called Sith soldiers. I am sorry but I find this statement absurd. Yes, he wasn't just the Sith, he was beginner of new generation of Stih that were able to use brain.
Yes, Revan was once an ideal Sith. However, we need to focus on his decisions and self-control after he became more mature.

Originally posted by Arhael
In case with Dooku he wasn't controlled or manipulated, he was convinced and then planned his own agenda like Revan.
Count Dooku was controlled and manipulated. Till his very death, he didn't realize that he was being used by another Lord of the Sith (Sidious) and that the history of Sith is filled with treachery. He was not very careful.
I mean, Anakin' fall is understandable as he was young and reckless. However, Count Dooku was old and mature and YET.......

Nephthys

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Kriea was an idiot. She wanted to destroy the Force.

http://www.soshichan.org/g/src/132828588854.png

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Nephthys
http://www.soshichan.org/g/src/132828588854.png
I know you would. I can feel your anger. It give you focus... makes you stronger. evil face

Nephthys

**** you. Kriea is awesome. Your tiny brian is only rivalled by how much your retarded opinion actually matters.

g_serious

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Nephthys
**** you. Kriea is awesome. Your tiny brian is only rivalled by how much your retarded opinion actually matters.

g_serious
I'm looking forward to completing your training. In time you will call *me* master. evil face

Lord Lucien

My God, I think Legend has absorbed Gideon in to his being.

On the plus side, I suddenly want to play KotOR again.

Nephthys

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I'm looking forward to completing your training. In time you will call *me* master. evil face

http://nooooooooooooooo.com/vader.jpg

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
My God, I think Legend has absorbed Gideon in to his being.
http://www.beanbagcentral.com/ccosas/img/042305palpatine.jpg

Originally posted by Nephthys
http://nooooooooooooooo.com/vader.jpg
It is unavoidable. It is your destiny. You, like your father, are now mine. evil face

Arhael

Any your point is? Don't just focus on his reign as the Lord of the Sith.
My original point was plain and simple both Dooku and Revan failed to refuse darkness after being consumed by it.

Focused and was quite able to understand his personality from novel. And what I found is that, though now mature and very experienced, he continued making unwise decisions.
He didn't even attempt to tell Jedi Council about his nightmares and worries. Instead of attempting to persuade Council to help and possibly form up an expedition he decided to go into unknown regions by himself and without any means to track him down in case, if something happened.
Even in fight with Vitiate he had to try to absorb the strongest burst of lightning with bare hands, when it would be easier with lightsaber.

Yes, he realized he was a tool but he, also, realized that there were good reasons for that. He didn't care about big name because he wasn't selfish, nor was Dooku. Re-embrace identity as Sith Lord for what? He saw with his own eyes what Sith were doing to Republic, how people were suffering for no reason. How cruel and heartless were Sith. Enemy was clear and distinct - Sith armada trying to dominate the galaxy.

What Dooku saw is flawed and corrupted government. Random and pointless wars rising. Countless civil wars rising inside the goverment. The whole galaxy shattering in pieces that needs a change in the way it is run.

It only more convinced him of how wrong it is to choose darkside as he saw what it turned Bastilla into. Personally I wouldn't want my girlfriend to suddenly turn into a an angry and uncontrollable *****.

The point is that Sidious and others I mentioned didn't explain Sith Philosophy openly in its true form. They used completely different much more subtle methods to turn person to darkside, they were giving valid and logical reasons to disillusion. When in Revan's time Sith ravaged open war and it was clear that their ways are just wrong. Kreya was the most clever Sith in the whole Kotor. She was the only one to realize that it is far more effective to become friend of Jedi and subtly convince and push him towards darkside, than blatantly give out same old stuff about power and galaxy domination, which only weak minded and selfish would fall for.

Manipulated? Yes but not on Force level. Controlled? No. He wasn't weak minded and his reasons for being Sith were very different but perfectly sound to his ideals.

Sidious exposed Old Order flaw with attachments. In this case Sidious heavily mind influenced Anakin.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Arhael
My original point was plain and simple both Dooku and Revan failed to refuse darkness after being consumed by it.
Difference is that Count Dooku was much older and mature in comparison.

Originally posted by Arhael
Focused and was quite able to understand his personality from novel. And what I found is that, though now mature and very experienced, he continued making unwise decisions.
He didn't even attempt to tell Jedi Council about his nightmares and worries. Instead of attempting to persuade Council to help and possibly form up an expedition he decided to go into unknown regions by himself and without any means to track him down in case, if something happened.
Revan was not in good terms with the Jedi Council. He was forbidden to even have a student. Sadly even after Revan' role in downfall of the Sith Empire led by Darth Malak, the Jedi Council resented Revan and did not take him back. You cannot blame Revan for not seeking help from the Jedi Council in this situation.

Originally posted by Arhael
Even in fight with Vitiate he had to try to absorb the strongest burst of lightning with bare hands, when it would be easier with lightsaber.
Their is no definite answer for this one. We don't know if Lightsaber would have worked. It may have or may not have.

Originally posted by Arhael
Yes, he realized he was a tool but he, also, realized that there were good reasons for that. He didn't care about big name because he wasn't selfish, nor was Dooku. Re-embrace identity as Sith Lord for what? He saw with his own eyes what Sith were doing to Republic, how people were suffering for no reason. How cruel and heartless were Sith. Enemy was clear and distinct - Sith armada trying to dominate the galaxy.
The lure of the dark side is too strong. Even Luke could not break free without help. Also, Revan was young at that time. Once he matured, he demonstrated great self-control.

Originally posted by Arhael
What Dooku saw is flawed and corrupted government. Random and pointless wars rising. Countless civil wars rising inside the goverment. The whole galaxy shattering in pieces that needs a change in the way it is run.
And he thought that by becoming a Sith Lord, he can solve these problems? How genius of him.

Originally posted by Arhael
It only more convinced him of how wrong it is to choose darkside as he saw what it turned Bastilla into. Personally I wouldn't want my girlfriend to suddenly turn into a an angry and uncontrollable *****.
Yes. It is a sign of his great self-control that he gained with passage of time.

Originally posted by Arhael
The point is that Sidious and others I mentioned didn't explain Sith Philosophy openly in its true form. They used completely different much more subtle methods to turn person to darkside, they were giving valid and logical reasons to disillusion.
Yes. But sooner or later, the truth would eventually come to light as the target person would embrace Sith ideals. Was Count Dooku blind to the damage done by Clone Wars?

Originally posted by Arhael
When in Revan's time Sith ravaged open war and it was clear that their ways are just wrong.
Actually the discovery of the Sith came as a surprise to Revan. It was believed that the Sith have been exterminated during the time of Exar Kun. It was unfortunate for Revan that he had to contend with a hidden threat so big that it would trump Exar Kun' rebellion in comparison.

Originally posted by Arhael
Kreya was the most clever Sith in the whole Kotor. She was the only one to realize that it is far more effective to become friend of Jedi and subtly convince and push him towards darkside, than blatantly give out same old stuff about power and galaxy domination, which only weak minded and selfish would fall for.
Traya was adept in the art of manipulation but she was far from an ideal Sith. She gave rise to abominations in the first place; Darth Nihilus being a prime example. Then she was betrayed and sought revenge, which resulted in the destruction of the Sith Triumvirate. And she eventually dug her own grave by tutoring Meetra Surik. She even hated the Force.

When you talk about great Sith Lords of KoTOR period; look no further then Darth Revan and Lord Vitiate.

Originally posted by Arhael
Manipulated? Yes but not on Force level. Controlled? No. He wasn't weak minded and his reasons for being Sith were very different but perfectly sound to his ideals.
And yet he became the monster which he originally despised? Please accept that Count Dooku had much less self-control in comparison to Revan. Qui-Gon was a critic of the Jedi order too but he did not went as far as Count Dooku to register his protest.

Originally posted by Arhael
Sidious exposed Old Order flaw with attachments. In this case Sidious heavily mind influenced Anakin.
Yes. Sidious was smart and his tactics worked. I also blame the Jedi order of being complacent because of a 1000 years of relative peace.

Rogue Gladiator

The new Revan novel pretty much removes Revan and Malak of all cupability for turning dark. They were enslaved. I've only read the first page, so I apologize if this is random.

Um, Revan's utter annihilation of Nyriss means that he wins the Force fight quite handily fatal to Force users, and Revan turned it on her effortlessly, turning her into a charred husk). Sabers? Quite frankly, it's impossible to say.

Arhael

Difference is that Count Dooku was much older and mature in comparison. Maturit and age can be a negative thing as well. When you start thinking to much and consider things on bigger scale, it creates problem. I find Dooku to have a lot of common with Jacen Solo.

They actually accepted him back but, yes, there was a lot of resentment, it was said somewhere in the book. You confirm it yourself by saying that he was forbidden to have a student, which implies that they had control over him. Also, he had free access to Jedi library, which, also, proves that he was considered part of Jedi.

Yes, I can and I will. You can't discard solutions because of disagreements, especially when it comes to something potentially serious. It is, also, wrong to take too much on yourself.

Since Jedi did not do anything and were puppets of Counselor of that corrupted government, it suddenly doesn't look like such a bad solution.

What should he see from that war? It was initiated by different governments. The war started because Republic failed to satisfy the planets that went into rebellion and to insure stability of the majority of the galaxy in general. Who is right and who is wrong?

I am talking about point, when he woke up on a ship attacked by Sith. Sith are attackers. Planet is occupied by Sith. Everyone's life is miserable because of Sith. Everything is black and white.

Did I talk about Sith idealism? She is the only one who was capable to turn good and selfless person to darkside. Others just sucked in this art. Malak instead of convincing Bastilla was simply electrocuting her and bending her will, not very artful. Not surprised that Revan was able to convince her turn back to light as there was no substantial reason to hold to.

Nope stick out tongue

But he wasn't interested in politics and had his own conclusions.

Me too.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Arhael
Maturit and age can be a negative thing as well. When you start thinking to much and consider things on bigger scale, it creates problem. I find Dooku to have a lot of common with Jacen Solo.
How maturity can be negative thing? A mature individual would make smart decisions and not experiment much.

Originally posted by Arhael
They actually accepted him back but, yes, there was a lot of resentment, it was said somewhere in the book. You confirm it yourself by saying that he was forbidden to have a student, which implies that they had control over him. Also, he had free access to Jedi library, which, also, proves that he was considered part of Jedi.
They did not had any control over him.

Revan reached a compromise with the Jedi Council;

In the end a compromise was reached. The Jedi would not speak out against his marriage to Bastila. Officially, both would still be recognized as Jedi in good standing, with all corresponding rights and privileges. In exchange, Revan promised not to spread his heresy to other members of the Order. (Source: SWTOR - Revan)

Originally posted by Arhael
Yes, I can and I will. You can't discard solutions because of disagreements, especially when it comes to something potentially serious. It is, also, wrong to take too much on yourself.
Your understanding is flawed. Revan' memories were slowly recovering in the form of visions. He started an investigation to uncover the facts. He also wanted to find Meetra Surik. Unfortunately, he got captured during the process. He did not get time to plan something big.

Originally posted by Arhael
Since Jedi did not do anything and were puppets of Counselor of that corrupted government, it suddenly doesn't look like such a bad solution.
It WAS a bad decision. Better option was to leave the Order to register his protest in front of the Jedi Council and start a movement to support his cause. Funds were not an issue for him as he was rich.

Originally posted by Arhael
What should he see from that war? It was initiated by different governments. The war started because Republic failed to satisfy the planets that went into rebellion and to insure stability of the majority of the galaxy in general. Who is right and who is wrong?
It was a huge farse.

Droid armies were being assembled by so-called separatists and led to peaceful worlds to spread voilence and instability. Republic had no option but to respond with overwhelming force. However, the supreme chancellor of the Republic also happened to be the leader of the separatist movement. Do you believe that Count Dooku did not knew this?

Originally posted by Arhael
I am talking about point, when he woke up on a ship attacked by Sith. Sith are attackers. Planet is occupied by Sith. Everyone's life is miserable because of Sith. Everything is black and white.
Malak' acts were similar to those of Palpatine. Destroying whole worlds just to send a message. On the outside, Sith were ruthless. On the inside, politics and manipulation were common occurences.

Originally posted by Arhael
Did I talk about Sith idealism? She is the only one who was capable to turn good and selfless person to darkside. Others just sucked in this art.
Which good and selfless person, she turned to the dark side?

Originally posted by Arhael
Malak instead of convincing Bastilla was simply electrocuting her and bending her will, not very artful.
Malak preferred torture over manipulation. Being artful or not - is a matter of personal opinion. smile

Originally posted by Arhael
Not surprised that Revan was able to convince her turn back to light as there was no substantial reason to hold to.
Bastilla was granted important position in the Sith Empire. It was sufficient reason for her to stick to her new position.

However, this changed the situation;

But Revan had seen its redemptive powers firsthand. It was his love that had brought Bastila back to the light; their emotional bond had wrought salvation for both of them. (Source: SWTOR - Revan)

Originally posted by Arhael
Nope stick out tongue

Available evidence supports my point of view.

Originally posted by Arhael
But he wasn't interested in politics and had his own conclusions.
He demonstrated inadequate self-control for his age.

Originally posted by Arhael
Me too.
Good. smile

Battlemaster

Originally posted by Nephthys
"The shift had been the outcome of months of intense meditation, during which Plagueis and Sidious had sought to challenge the Force for sovereignty and suffuse the galaxy with the power of the dark side. Brazen and shameless, and at their own mortal peril, they had waged etheric war, anticipating that their own midi-chlorians, the Force's proxy army, might marshal to boil their blood or stop the beating of their hearts. Risen out of themselves, discorporate and as a single entity, they had brought the power of their will to bear, asserting their sovereignty over the Force. No counterforce had risen against them. In what amounted to a state of rapture they knew that the Force had yielded, as if some deity had been tipped from its throne. On the fulcrum they had fashioned, the light side had dipped and the dark side had ascended."

- The Unbalancing of the Force.

Plagueis and Sidious used a ritual to place the Dark side in ascendancy.

Thank you.

Arhael

How maturity can be negative thing? A mature individual would make smart decisions and not experiment much. With maturity ideals change. Experience people get through their life often change their opinions and not always in positive way. Jacen Solo was kidnapped twice. Ones by Hetrir. Second time by Shadow Academy. In both cases he was tortured and thought Sith ways. Yet, darkside didn't lure him. With maturity his ideals changed. He went through a lot, he started thinking on bigger scale, he started thinking politically. He accepted Sith ways as it suited his ideals. And most notably he was selfless even as Sith, darkside did not consume him, it was his convenient tool. Even after death he did not regret it, yet, he didn't hold any anger on Jaina or anybody else.

Then why are you contradicting yourself? Obviously they couldn't enforce him to do anything but they still required him to follow certain rules. Control doesn't have to be like in empire.

My understanding is flawed? I red the book as well and know the content. There was no time limit what so ever. He got captured in process of following his vision, not Meetra Surik. And still he did not attempt to share worries with Jedi Council and he was quite close to them as he attended Jedi library.

Your logic is surprisingly one sided. How many politicians supported totalitarian regime? Were they all bad? No, they were exactly same people with different political views. How many planets enjoyed their life under Galactic Empire? And how many of those planets were suffering because of rebellion and later New Republic?
Pellaeon was one of the key figures leading Empire against New Republic. Was he a bad person? No. He had strong morals, he was noble and respected person. He died as hero and was remember as hero both by the whole galaxy. But why hero, if he was leading war against Republic? You see what I am implying on?

Separatists started war because they were unhappy with the way republic treated them. It was obviously wrong. Yet, it was, also, Republic's fault for being so weak in terms of military, otherwise no one would dare to fight Republic. In TPM republic didn't have overwhelming forces in case you forgot.

At the time of TPM he didn't.

How is it relevant at all? Did Dooku leave at that time?

She was very close to turning Mitra.

Not really sufficient for selfless person. He bent her will, twisted her mind. But there was no good reason for her to stay.

So does mine.

What exactly do you mean by that? He was perfectly self-controlled, when fighting Kenobi and Anakin first time. He didn't even relish victory over them and looked surprisingly sad. Didn't see him even ones succumbing to his anger.

He wasn't selfish and he did not succumb to darkside but used it as convenient tool.

Arhael

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Thank you.

I already started missing you. big grin

That ritual still does not prove that it was the only time Force was unbalanced. Neither it proves that Force wasn't farther unbalanced after.

Here is nice article supported by Lucas comments describing that balance in the Force is the balance without darkside:
http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=12176359

Here is cut from old neighborhood wookieepedia:
Many fans incorrectly assume that balance refers to an equal mix of both light and dark side users. However, as George Lucas explains in the introductory documentary for the VHS version A New Hope, Special Edition, this is not the case:
"The first film starts with the last age of the Republic, which is it's getting tired, it's old, it's getting corrupt.
There's the rise of the Sith, who are becoming a force, and in the backdrop of this we have Anakin Skywalker, a young boy who is destined to be a significant player in bringing balance back to the Force and to the Republic...
Then in the second film we get into more of that turmoil. It's the beginning of the Clone Wars, it's the beginning of the end of democracy in the Republic, sort of the beginning of the end of the Republic. And it's Anakin Skywalker beginning to deal with some of his more intense emotions of anger, hatred, sense of loss, possessiveness, jealousy, and the other things he has to cope with.
And then we will get to the 3rd film where he is seduced to the dark side..
Which brings us up to the films 4, 5, and 6, in which Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe..."

In an interview, Lucas compared the difference between the light and dark sides as being like the difference between a symbiotic relationship and a cancer. A symbiotic relationship is one which benefits both parties and in which neither is harmed, whereas a cancer takes without giving back, eventually causing the death of both parties."

In other words balance in the Force is when both good and bad people manage to leave in harmony. While darkside is "cancer" making both good and bad people suffer. Darksiders don't follow the will of the Force, they abuse it, hence destroying the balance.

Nephthys

If you look at what Lucas actually says its very iffy thats what he intended to imply.

Herbert Spencer

In light of the Mortis trilogy, the most sensible interpretation of what shall heretofore be referred to as The Lucasian Balance seems to be equilibrium that is achieved with the destruction of the Sith. It isn't the presence of the dark side that is problematic, but rather the presence of particular dark siders who aggravate the balance.

Arhael

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
In light of the Mortis trilogy, the most sensible interpretation of what shall heretofore be referred to as The Lucasian Balance seems to be equilibrium that is achieved with the destruction of the Sith. It isn't the presence of the dark side that is problematic, but rather the presence of particular dark siders who aggravate the balance.
That is very true. And I am surprised that you made such conclusion out of Mortis trilogy, where Son and Daughter represented 50/50 balance between light and dark. thumb up

Battlemaster

Originally posted by Arhael
That is very true. thumb up

So you concede to your earlier statements about the subject to be false.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Arhael
With maturity ideals change. Experience people get through their life often change their opinions and not always in positive way. Jacen Solo was kidnapped twice. Ones by Hetrir. Second time by Shadow Academy. In both cases he was tortured and thought Sith ways. Yet, darkside didn't lure him. With maturity his ideals changed. He went through a lot, he started thinking on bigger scale, he started thinking politically. He accepted Sith ways as it suited his ideals. And most notably he was selfless even as Sith, darkside did not consume him, it was his convenient tool. Even after death he did not regret it, yet, he didn't hold any anger on Jaina or anybody else.
A dark sider is not necessarily a Sith. Keep this in mind.

Originally posted by Arhael
Then why are you contradicting yourself? Obviously they couldn't enforce him to do anything but they still required him to follow certain rules. Control doesn't have to be like in empire.
This is not control. This is agreement.

Originally posted by Arhael
My understanding is flawed? I red the book as well and know the content. There was no time limit what so ever. He got captured in process of following his vision, not Meetra Surik. And still he did not attempt to share worries with Jedi Council and he was quite close to them as he attended Jedi library.
Remember the behavior of Atris?

And how Revan would have attempted to share his worries with the Jedi Council during captivity?

Also, remember the case of Mandalorians? When Revan approached the Jedi Council on this issue, it refused to act. The trust factor was shaken during that very moment.

Originally posted by Arhael
Your logic is surprisingly one sided. How many politicians supported totalitarian regime? Were they all bad? No, they were exactly same people with different political views. How many planets enjoyed their life under Galactic Empire? And how many of those planets were suffering because of rebellion and later New Republic?
Pellaeon was one of the key figures leading Empire against New Republic. Was he a bad person? No. He had strong morals, he was noble and respected person. He died as hero and was remember as hero both by the whole galaxy. But why hero, if he was leading war against Republic? You see what I am implying on?
So joining the Sith was the correct path to address the issues at hand?

Originally posted by Arhael
Separatists started war because they were unhappy with the way republic treated them. It was obviously wrong. Yet, it was, also, Republic's fault for being so weak in terms of military, otherwise no one would dare to fight Republic. In TPM republic didn't have overwhelming forces in case you forgot.
How the separatists were being treated?

And Republic did not had an enormous military during that time because it was a time of peace. When the civil war began, the need for enormous military also arose.

Originally posted by Arhael
At the time of TPM he didn't.
Sidious was actually giving instructions to Vice Roy Nute Gunray.

Originally posted by Arhael
How is it relevant at all? Did Dooku leave at that time?
This point is not for Count Dooku. Try to follow the argument or don't respond.

Originally posted by Arhael
She was very close to turning Mitra.
She wasn't. She was using Meetra.

Originally posted by Arhael
Not really sufficient for selfless person. He bent her will, twisted her mind. But there was no good reason for her to stay.
Being chosen as the apprentice to the Dark Lord himself and grant of special position on the Star Forge were not sufficient reasons to stay?

Originally posted by Arhael
So does mine.
You should have no problem in convincing me then.

Originally posted by Arhael
What exactly do you mean by that? He was perfectly self-controlled, when fighting Kenobi and Anakin first time. He didn't even relish victory over them and looked surprisingly sad. Didn't see him even ones succumbing to his anger.
You are not getting my point. Dooku was seduced by the Sith Lord to join him and he easily fell for the false promises just like Anakin. Didn't he learn to not trust the Sith during his tenure as a Jedi? Hell, he was a Jedi Master and still demonstrated such a low self-control.

Originally posted by Arhael
He wasn't selfish and he did not succumb to darkside but used it as convenient tool.
This;

Count Dooku knows that he has been deceived not just today, but for many, many years. That he has never been the true apprentice. That he has never been the heir to the power of the Sith. He has been only a tool.

His whole life-all his victories, all his struggles, all his heritage, all his principles and his sacrifices, everything he's done, everything he owns, everything he's been, all his dreams and grand vision for the future Empire and the Army of Sith-have been only a pathetic sham, because all of them, all of him, add up only to this. (Source: ROTS book)

Very convenient tool indeed. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Board Walker

So the Son who was the darkside manifested, was not evil, or a sith right?

This is very interesting to me, because it means the lightside and the darkside is not inherently good and evil, but rather just tool seperate pools of power that depend entirely upon the individual to decide how they are used?

Bc it seemed the son wanted to help anakin destroy the sith who were misusing the dark side?

Arhael

A dark sider is not necessarily a Sith. Keep this in mind.
Ok wink

Atris wasn't the Jedi Council and in Kotor 2 she proved to be unwise and turned to darkside, he just randomly met her in library. Yes, I remember him approaching Council and being refused. It, also, proved wrong for him to go against Order's. And as more mature and experienced Jedi he should have understood his mistake. Also, his memories were still not recovered to have any grudge about that matter.

It wasn't but from many perspectives it looked correct and perfectly sound.

It's a common thing that remote planets suffer, while central planets blossom. And government was indeed overwhelmingly corrupted.

I was talking about Dooku's time, when Sith were unknown and in hiding. When there was a lot of uncertainties, random conflicts, instability and no clear enemy. And suddenly you jump 20 years ahead, where Palpatine didn't need to hide anymore and republic is no more. You follow argument.

Ones again it is selfish thing, which Bastilla was never interested in and never will. She was very good person with pure heart as selfless as Jedi could be. Revan wouldn't love her otherwise.

I will give five to anybody on this forum, who will be able to convince you in anything.

And you don't get my point. He lost his fate in Jedi and their philosophy before Sidius. Developed his own views and ideals. There was no Sith during his time as a Jedi. There is, also, saying don't judge a person by actions of others. Palpatine didn't need to seduce him. They had normal conversation and there was indeed a lot of common in their plans. The difference was in motives and, indeed it was stupid of him to underestimate treachery of Sith but he couldn't know how self-centering Palpatine was.

Nice source. It shows that he had aim in life. That it wasn't just stupid lust for power, his goal of forming better government stayed the same but he got betrayed. Anakin on the other hand lost any meaning in his life with death of Padme. He was suffering his whole Vader time consumed by his aimless anger.

Arhael

Originally posted by Battlemaster
So you concede to your earlier statements about the subject to be false. No. Did I say that darkside needs to be eliminated entirely? You said that the Force itself needs darkside, which I disagree. It is impossible to illuminate it completely, there will always be darkness luring. Palpatine and Vader were actively participating and distorting the balance, until Anakin fulfilled the prophecy. And that is why there was Luke as galaxy needed Jedi to maintain balance by protecting galaxy from more darkness that was to come.

Arhael

So the Son who was the darkside manifested, was not evil, or a sith right? He was actually very evil. He tried to kill them right at the beginning. He was dreaming to take father's place and then leave the planet to dominate the galaxy.

That is very typical to give promises to bend someone's will smile

It actually shows that there can't be perfect balance between light and dark. Father was managing to keep his son at bay but inevitably Son ruined everything. He confronted his father. He killed his sister. He made his family suffer as well as himself. He was cancer that brought the end to everything.
Father can be considered as incarnation of the Force. And his children as it's light and dark side. Father didn't want his son to be like that, he resented him, he wanted him to change. But Son went against his "will". The will to leave together in harmony.

Battlemaster

Originally posted by Arhael
No. Did I say that darkside needs to be eliminated entirely? You said that the Force itself needs darkside, which I disagree. It is impossible to illuminate it completely, there will always be darkness luring. Palpatine and Vader were actively participating and distorting the balance, until Anakin fulfilled the prophecy. And that is why there was Luke as galaxy needed Jedi to maintain balance by protecting galaxy from more darkness that was to come.

Everything you agreed to, goes against all your earlier opinions.

Look up and read your posts, and then his.

Arhael

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Everything you agreed to, goes against all your earlier opinions.

Look up and read your posts, and then his.
My argument was that The Force doesn't need darkside. And that darkside brings unbalance. Don't see any contradiction. In RotJ Palpatine and Vader were sources of unbalance and darkside is the reason for their existence. And new Jedi Order maintained balance by preventing any other Sith dominating the galaxy and creating chaos.

DARTH POWER

^ To be fair you're never going to be able to match Lucas's statement on bringing balance and events of the SWEU.

Lucas didn't write any of the EU, and he has no issues in contradicting EU material.

Arhael

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ To be fair you're never going to be able to match Lucas's statement on bringing balance and events of the SWEU.

Lucas didn't write any of the EU, and he has no issues in contradicting EU material.

Agree. But instead of accepting that we just have different views she started saying that I don't have enough knowledge about Force, which kind of triggered me.

So, Battlemaster, forgive me. Lets maintain balance in the forum and live in harmony. ;D

Battlemaster

Originally posted by Arhael
Agree. But instead of accepting that we just have different views she started saying that I don't have enough knowledge about Force, which kind of triggered me.

So, Battlemaster, forgive me. Lets maintain balance in the forum and live in harmony. ;D

http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/7bd8232e-f88e-4f39-9e8c-22d31a50ff96.jpg

Arhael

Now every time I see a pink pony, it will remind me of you. wink

Padawan Obi-Wan

It is the second one battlemaster, also i thought you would know to speak more politely to girls arhael.

Stealth Moose

Originally posted by Battlemaster
http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/EPIC.jpg
VS
http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/Duh.jpg

Peak Dooku; Revan.

Setting: Geonosis Arena

1. Force

2. Sabers

3. Anything goes.

Who emerges?

Dooku's an amazing saber expert, but Revan's top tier of his own era. His victory against Malak, Yusanis, Mandalore, etc. are meant to emphasis this without showing us canon saber fights in a player-controlled environment. In TOR, Revan's chief strength is in his god-awful ridiculous Force powers. At one point, he pretty much brings down debris orbiting the meteor-space station on which you fight him to crush the player party, uses Force lightning storms and TK which can kill you with one hit (which it did me once. It shoots you the entire length of the arena and into the abyss if you're not lucky.). Then you have his "Hey Darth Nyriss, NO U" attack, and it's clear that while Dooku is powerful in his own right, Revan outstrips him in sheer power and Sith Lore.

Sabers, tough call. Want to lean towards Dooku because of established Makashi mastery, but if Anakin Skywalker can give him fits (which the show and ROtS indicate is the case) I don't see why Revan can't do likewise.

Force powers, it's really all about Revan here. He has shown a greater understanding of ancient lost techniques and especially Sith Techniques, and a greater range of power.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Sabers, tough call. Want to lean towards Dooku because of established Makashi mastery, but if Anakin Skywalker can give him fits (which the show and ROtS indicate is the case) I don't see why Revan can't do likewise.

Maybe because Anakin is legitimately one of the best duelists of the era and the mythos whereas Revan kind of isn't?

Stealth Moose

Let's see who beat Revan in saber combat in his era:

.........

Let's see who beat Anakin Skywalker in saber combat in his era:

Dooku
Obi-Wan Kenobi

If you want to pull the "of all time" card, Anakin has far more failures and lower showings alonig with one considerably awesome and unprecedented win than Revan, who basically dominated everyone but Lord "I eat planets and crap thunder" Vitiate.

Seems like Anakin's "greatness" is entirely relative too. Funny how that works.

Nephthys

Did he dominate them in lightsaber combat? Because if not I hardly see how thats relevent.

RE: Blaxican

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Let's see who beat Revan in saber combat in his era:

.........

Let's see who beat Anakin Skywalker in saber combat in his era:

Dooku
Obi-Wan Kenobi

If you want to pull the "of all time" card, Anakin has far more failures and lower showings alonig with one considerably awesome and unprecedented win than Revan, who basically dominated everyone but Lord "I eat planets and crap thunder" Vitiate.

Seems like Anakin's "greatness" is entirely relative too. Funny how that works. ... How does that argument make sense? That's like saying Muhammed Ali's claim for being the greatest boxer ever is invalidated by me being undefeated while he isn't. I might be undefeated, while he has actual losses, but on the other hand I've never had to fight George Foreman.

Furthermore, I've seen you personally argue that Obi-Wan's victory over Anakin wasn't legitimate, and we all know that Jedi Master Dooku beating 16 year old padawan Anakin is hardly worth mentioning.

Herbert Spencer

KingD19

The Old Republic reveals that Revan fought with the immortal Sith Emperor. Anakin can't compare to that.

RE: Blaxican

Originally posted by KingD19
The Old Republic reveals that Revan fought with the immortal Sith Emperor. Anakin can't compare to that. Unless he survived due to his bladework, and nothing else, that isn't really relevant, lol.

ares834

Originally posted by KingD19
The Old Republic reveals that Revan fought with the immortal Sith Emperor. Anakin can't compare to that.

The only reason he survived was because the Emperor wanted him alive... At the end of the duel, Revan was completely at Vitate's mercy.

Stealth Moose

Rereading that post, it isn't very clear where I -was- going with it. I was overtired and multi-tasking, so I beg pardon for not making a formidable point.

Battlemaster

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Rereading that post, it isn't very clear where I -was- going with it. I was overtired and multi-tasking, so I beg pardon for not making a formidable point.

I've been there, too.

In any case, you did bring up some great points. I would definitely agree with Revan beating Dooku through the Force, at least.

Stealth Moose

Just playing the battle with him in TOR and reading Revan, the Force edge definitely seems in his favor.

Nephthys

Gameplay isn't canon. Does he do anything in cutscenes?

ares834

I don't remember him doing anything other than potentially teleporting... But that could also be him dying in a fashion similar to Palps.

Still, reducing that one Dark Lord to ash with a blast of lightning is helluva impressive.

Battlemaster

Originally posted by ares834
I don't remember him doing anything other than potentially teleporting... But that could also be him dying in a fashion similar to Palps.

Still, reducing that one Dark Lord to ash with a blast of lightning is helluva impressive.

If Revan did that in a fight with a Dark Lord, then that trumps any Force Lightning attack Dooku has ever pulled, against a Force User.

That is something considerable.

Stealth Moose

Originally posted by Nephthys
Gameplay isn't canon. Does he do anything in cutscenes?

Revan has an entirely unique ability to generate Force lightning storms of considerable power during the fight. This is also referenced by the Rakata at Lehon. Secondly, he's the only character in the game to use TK to pull debris the size of Buicks on top of the player characters. You can argue it didn't happen in cutscene, but the fact remains that they deliberately scripted and made graphics and sounds for this specific event which is replicated nowhere else.

The intention of the game creators seems to be "Revan is fokkin' badass with the Force." Therefore, unless I was completely biased against Revan, I'd be inclined to consider this as representative of his power in relation to other Force users.

UltimateAnomaly

I always thought the 'Revan' teleport was the Fold Space ability that Luke and Jacen learned from that force clan.

Arhael

The Old Republic reveals that Revan fought with the immortal Sith Emperor. Anakin can't compare to that.
Anakin subdued The Son and The Daughter during Father's test. Revan can't compare to that.

Force lightning is generated by anger. As long as Revan is a Jedi, his anger will be limited, hence, his Force lightning will always suck and will be nothing comparing to what equally powerful Sith can muster. Also, in game Force lightning ability could be skipped entirely.

In any case Dooku himself has great command of the Force. Yoda in both encounters had to proceed to lightsaber combat. In CW Anakin is shown to be better combatant, than Dooku, yet, he is always able to take advantage by his offensive use of the Force.

Nephthys

Actually Revan seems pretty ****ing pissed off in TOR.

KingD19

It was a different application than what Luke and Ben learned from the Aing-Tii. As he vanished in a flash of light. But people do think it's the same thing, although they don't know where he'd have learned it from. Since he was never documented as having met any Aing-Tii.

Nephthys

If Darth Jadus can teleport I don't see Revan being able to as out of the question.

KingD19

Revan did teleport. It's just not clear how he did it. As Fold Space is the only known Force Teleportation ability, and only the Aing-Tii know it. So either he made up his own, or he learned it from the Aing-Tii at one point.

Nephthys

We don't know if he did. Its ambiguous for a reason.

KingD19

Hey!!! Let me believe, dammit!!! -sobs-

UltimateAnomaly

Revan was pretty annoyed. Hell. Programming robots for 98.7% effective genocide of an entire species. Not to mention his whole 'I was Sith, I am Jedi!' rantfest.

Stealth Moose

He claims to be Jedi, but then claims to have power over both sides. Really, he's just ****ing insane at this point. But his lightning is still BA.

KingD19

He was a Jedi, and he did have power over both halves of the Force. As he'd been a Sith Lord for a large amount of time, and a Jedi Knight/Master. He finally found the perfect unification point between the 2.

UltimateAnomaly

He's like Jaden or Kyle on steroids.. And having a steroid withdrawal in terms of TOR.

Herbert Spencer

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Revan has an entirely unique ability to generate Force lightning storms of considerable power during the fight. This is also referenced by the Rakata at Lehon. Secondly, he's the only character in the game to use TK to pull debris the size of Buicks on top of the player characters. You can argue it didn't happen in cutscene, but the fact remains that they deliberately scripted and made graphics and sounds for this specific event which is replicated nowhere else.

Was any of this at all depicted in a cutscene?

I'm not sure basing arguments on creative intent is a wise decision. Think of all the arguments we could make about other characters. Sounds like a slope of unparalleled slipperiness*.

*obligatory joke about Neph's mom

Stealth Moose

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
Was any of this at all depicted in a cutscene?

I'm not sure basing arguments on creative intent is a wise decision. Think of all the arguments we could make about other characters. Sounds like a slope of unparalleled slipperiness*.

*obligatory joke about Neph's mom

None of the battle takes place via cutscene. Therefore, I can only either say "not enough info to be conclusive" (which would apply to pretty much any media out of the movies era) or "I believe based on the deliberate showcasing of his Force abilities, the hearsay from KotOR, and the prose of Revan and the Bane novels that Revan's Force mastery appears to excel Dooku's. It's almost certainly greater in scope."

I realize that doesn't fit your worldview, but lump it.

truejedi

turning a dark lord to ash IS more impressive than anything ever done by dooku.

Arhael

Revan was admitting by himself that he didn't mind using both light and dark powers.
The book description of that blast of power in its purest form is rather horrible. Where light powers came from, what was the source of dark powers at that moment? It was left unknown. In all other books emotions are described instead but that writer was writing from game perspective, where light and dark are just measurable bars on display. Really, it's hard to make assessment of his capabilities.
After reading book I was left with opinion that, if he fully merged himself in light instead, he would well stand a chance. It's like, when Yoda at beginning couldn't absorb Palpatine's lightning but in the midst of battle he fully merged in lightside and was well absorbing even stronger lightning.

Zampan�

And this is why Drew shouldn't be trusted with anything.

Nephthys

Drew does good writing on video games. He wrote Mass Effect 1 afterall, he must have some talent.

(And I'm finding his work on the Jedi Knight storyline in TOR surprisingly fun)

Arhael

I actually liked Revan book. The storyline is amazing. I rethought all content and generally Scourge's emotional side is shown very well and representation of what general Sith are about. Saw critics of Darth Bane books that they are like game storyline progressions but Revan book storyline was perfectly fine. That flaw in representation of Revan's Force blast is hardly enough to label the book bad and I didn't give it much consideration until all those debates about Revan's powers began.

darthshade

dooku can not even touch revan...the only star wars character who can beat revan is lord vitiate himself, revan has never been beat by anybody else in history!!!!

dooku had a hard time throwing little parts at yoda!

Battlemaster

Originally posted by darthshade
dooku can not even touch revan...the only star wars character who can beat revan is lord vitiate himself, revan has never been beat by anybody else in history!!!!

dooku had a hard time throwing little parts at yoda!

I think Dooku could put up a good fight.

But he'd get his ass kicked.

Revan would beat him pretty decently in the Force, and surpass him in swordsmanship at least narrowly.

Herbert Spencer

That's unfortunate.

I'd say the former is something we can both agree on. And while I may be inclined to agree with the latter (or at least with the idea that Revan's Force strength is greater than Dooku's), I remain skeptical of the idea that we should assess characters based on creative intent... unless we applied that framework to all characters, not just Revan.

Stealth Moose

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
That's unfortunate.

I'd say the former is something we can both agree on. And while I may be inclined to agree with the latter (or at least with the idea that Revan's Force strength is greater than Dooku's), I remain skeptical of the idea that we should assess characters based on creative intent... unless we applied that framework to all characters, not just Revan.

At first glance, that appears to be fairness, but in reality the idea of applying it to Revan is an attempt to bridge a huge medium gap. We simply don't have live footage of Revan dueling anyone. We're left to draw our own conclusions, and that injects a lot of subjectivity on behalf of the observer to determine his ranking. The intent of the game creators is "Revan is boss of his era". The only being that conclusively defeats Revan is a Force God who cannot be measured as anything but vastly superior to everyone else at this point. Meanwhile, you have him not just defeating but dominating opponents like Malak (foremost Sith of his era besides Revan, warhero, Jedi Guardian of exceptional talent), Yusanis (foremost echani duelist, echani have a precedent of defeating Jedi in melee), Mandalore (high ranking enemy warrior, lifelong combatant, Mandalorians are among the most dangerous opponents in the galaxy), and Nyriss (Sith Lord of exceptional strength and standing, head and shoulders above Scourge at this point, considerable lightning skills imply considerable Force talent).

A lot of extrapolation there, but it's not wrong to draw conclusions with evidence to bridge the gap. Either you bridge the gap and make a conclusion or you say it can't be bridged and you void the fight.

Dooku hasn't shown us Force mastery on Revan's level. Revan is not a mid-tier or novice fighter. His own record of victories supports this. The implication seems that he's top-tier or best of his era. Revan even goes so far as to call him the best champion of the Jedi at this point. In PT era, a comparable record of mastery and prowess would be like Mace Windu, who is at least a peer of Dooku's.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
A lot of extrapolation there, but it's not wrong to draw conclusions with evidence to bridge the gap. Either you bridge the gap and make a conclusion or you say it can't be bridged and you void the fight.

Not thaat this is a reflection of my personal belief on the matter, but isn't this exactly why theres a rule against using Unknown combatants?

Stealth Moose

No, that was chiefly an attempt to stifle activity by Rex/Ush. Don't be fooled.

Herbert Spencer

All of which point to the conclusion that Revan was a prodigious and uncommonly powerful Force user, which is an idea that isn't contested by anyone I'm aware of. It's the idea that this extrapolation can be refined so precisely as to indicate obvious superiority over Dooku that you begin to lose me.

He hasn't? With the exception of Revan's ability to "channel light and dark side" powers into an explosive burst of telekinesis, I'm unsure of anything that Dooku hasn't equaled in terms of power. In fact, I wouldn't hesitate to say that Dooku's telekinetic powers outstrip Revan's own in terms of scale and control. If I'm leaving out canonical feats from the game, feel free to remind me.

Of course not, no one has suggested otherwise.

The implication is likewise that the good Count is top tier of his era, too, rivaling Mace Windu and second only to Yoda and Sidious, in the timeframe that Lucas refers to as "the golden age of Jedi."

While not necessarily false, Revan was written in third person limited, meaning that this accolade comes from Revan's own mind.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
No, that was chiefly an attempt to stifle activity by Rex/Ush. Don't be fooled.

My mistake. I can't believe I'm still underestimating their depravity.

Herbert Spencer

He hasn't? With the exception of Revan's ability to "channel light and dark side" powers into an explosive burst of telekinesis, I'm unsure of anything that Dooku hasn't equaled in terms of power. In fact, I wouldn't hesitate to say that Dooku's telekinetic powers outstrip Revan's own in terms of scale and control. If I'm leaving out canonical feats from the game, feel free to remind me.

With respect to this claim, consider the following:

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^ At the 0:17 mark.

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^ At the 0:14 mark.

I don't have access to the comics and books, but hopefully that will do for now.

Arhael

I gonna back up Herbert here. Dooku was extremely skilled in offensive Force use. In last encounter with Obi-Wan he defeated him with Force alone. Yoda was extremely powerful in the Force, he snatched off lightsabers from Ventress, who was very powerful herself engaging other council members on equal terms, yet, Yoda had to engage Dooku in lightsaber combat as not able to defeat him with Force alone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Oh13eBEtu4
On this video Anakin entered "angry mode" not giving a f*** about paralysing spear of Magnaguard and showed himself better with lightsaber, yet, Dooku succesfully countered him with the Force.

DARTH POWER

^ Anakin was clearly overpowering Dooku in Sabers there, and I don't even think he was In The Zone in that fight. Just angry.

Not sure why on Earth Dooku thought he would be capable of handling both Obi-Wan and Anakin by ROTS.

Arhael

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ Anakin was clearly overpowering Dooku in Sabers there, and I don't even think he was In The Zone in that fight. Just angry.

Not sure why on Earth Dooku thought he would be capable of handling both Obi-Wan and Anakin by ROTS.
When that In the zone actually happened and what it is about? I meant he entered similar state as in RotS in their encounter.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Arhael
When that In the zone actually happened and what it is about? I meant he entered similar state as in RotS in their encounter.

The Zone is when in the ROTS novel he's described as having achieved a perfect clarity. Being completely focused.

In that moment he was able to defeat Count Dooku instantly.

He seemed to have had a similar moment on Mortis when he overpowered 2 Force wielders. That would easily be the equivalent of him overpowering Yoda and Sidious together.

The way he's fighting in that above video though is probably more akin to the way he was in his fight against Obi-Wan (but probably less confused).

Herbert Spencer

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He seemed to have had a similar moment on Mortis when he overpowered 2 Force wielders. That would easily be the equivalent of him overpowering Yoda and Sidious together.

That's actually a very astute point. Mortis is a Force nexus, of course, "an amplifier" in the words of ghost!Qui-Gon, but naturally the Son and Daughter's powers would have been bolstered by it as well.

DARTH POWER

^ The Father actually says that "Only" the Chosen One could be capable of such.

In other words(according to him) neither Yoda nor Sidious could have replicated that feat, even if they were on the same Force Nexus.

Herbert Spencer

I didn't suggest that they could.

Arhael

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The Zone is when in the ROTS novel he's described as having achieved a perfect clarity. Being completely focused.

In that moment he was able to defeat Count Dooku instantly.

He seemed to have had a similar moment on Mortis when he overpowered 2 Force wielders. That would easily be the equivalent of him overpowering Yoda and Sidious together.

The way he's fighting in that above video though is probably more akin to the way he was in his fight against Obi-Wan (but probably less confused).
Well, it is not something miraculous to experience it only ones in a lifetime. In both cases Dooku was trolling and constantly driven back and Sidious relish Anakin succumbing to his anger. The only difference is that in first case he got chance to save situation with Force lightning, while in second his hands were chopped off suddenly and unexpectedly.

Yes, he was amplified by Force nexus, yet, it is still miraculous one time achievement. The only thing Son and Daughter were restrained from is using offensive powers but they certainly were allowed to defend against the Force.
Logically, that Force amplifier would at most make him equal to Son or Daughter alone.
But the circumstances were very specific. He had to save Obi-Wan and Asoka, he had desire to protect the ones he cared for. This is kind of situation that can drive Jedi beyond his limits. Because of that he not only managed to wield that nexus power (which he never learned to on first place) but overpower both of them. Considering Son's nature, he would certainly not hold back and put most effort to prevent that kind of humiliation.
And after that Anakin wasn't able to use nexus power even in the slightest, when confronting Son, which only proves that it was rare moment of oneness with the Force.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
I didn't suggest that they could.

I know. Wasn't arguing. Was just adding what the Father said.

Originally posted by Arhael
Well, it is not something miraculous to experience it only ones in a lifetime. In both cases Dooku was trolling and constantly driven back and Sidious relish Anakin succumbing to his anger. The only difference is that in first case he got chance to save situation with Force lightning, while in second his hands were chopped off suddenly and unexpectedly.

The first fight(in your video) was a lot longer. And Dooku's Force powers seemed to be the only thing holding Anakin at bay.

In the ROTS one, according to the novel, he chopped his hands off in that moment of clarity. The hands went off as soon as Anakin decided to win.

Hence the decisive victory. Not giving his opponent the chance to use any force powers.

Arhael

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

In the ROTS one, according to the novel, he chopped his hands off in that moment of clarity. The hands went off as soon as Anakin decided to win.

Hence the decisive victory. Not giving his opponent the chance to use any force powers.
Interesting concept. I guess I need to be patient before I reach the novel myself. Wondering how Dooku could get so smug thinking he could defeat Anakin in pure lightsaber fight and why he didn't attempt to use Force. My assumption is that there was no objects to grasp and Force pushing would only delay time and tire him up. Also, apparently, Anakin's Force defenses were too good to get Force choked like Obi-Wan.
Actually, my thoughts are useless, since they clearly come from EU perspective and CW wasn't even planned at the time.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Arhael
Interesting concept. I guess I need to be patient before I reach the novel myself. Wondering how Dooku could get so smug thinking he could defeat Anakin in pure lightsaber fight and why he didn't attempt to use Force. My assumption is that there was no objects to grasp and Force pushing would only delay time and tire him up. Also, apparently, Anakin's Force defenses were too good to get Force choked like Obi-Wan.
Actually, my thoughts are useless, since they clearly come from EU perspective and CW wasn't even planned at the time.

Some of the ROTS version of the fight needs to be ignored.

For instance Dooku not knowing what form Anakin prefers. After 3 fights in CW (so far), that's pretty unlikely.

I really don't think Dooku could have done anything to Anakin with the Force in their final confrontation. I used to think he could. But after seeing the fight in "Crisis on Naboo" it seems like Anakin can take all Dooku's Force attacks.

So when he had that state of clarity in ROTS, it's probable Dooku's force attacks would not have had much effect at all.

So yes your right, Skywalker's natural force defenses must be very good.

Now the real brain teaser is how the heck Ventress managed to Force Choke him?! Even if she was in some temporary rage boost, surely that couldn't have made her more powerful in the force than Count Dooku!

Edit- Perhaps Skywalker is more powerful in season 4 than he was in season 3. Or perhaps he gained confidence, hence becoming more powerful on a consistent basis, after his trip to Mortis.

Arhael

Now the real brain teaser is how the heck Ventress managed to Force Choke him?! Even if she was in some temporary rage boost, surely that couldn't have made her more powerful in the force than Count Dooku!

I don't think Ventress was much less powerful, than Dooku. It's just Dooku could utilize his powers much more effectively.

And actually, anger can give very huge power boost. If we think about it, anger cannot be amplified willingly, it's an emotion that gets stronger depending on circumstances.
Before Ventress fought them, Dooku said that she failed and that she is no longer his apprentice and shall die. At the same time her hatred for Jedi increased even more as they were the reason of her failure, that they kept spoiling her plans and then Obi-Wan didn't help the matter by giving taunts.
It's not a typical encounter, she experienced far greater anger, than usually.
Same with Opress. Both Ventress and Dooku treated him like a smear, chiding him and telling what to do. He got enraged and as the result unleashed it on them, then on Obi-Wan and Anakin and finally giving that Force blast knocking everyone over.

I read book The Old Republic: Deceived and it shows very well how anger can greatly amplify power.
On Alderaan on negotiation about piece treaty between Republic and empire Aryn Leneer - a Jedi Knight felt death of her master. Two Sith sitting and smirking at front of her became target of her rage. She gave immense Force blast, Sith blocked it but still were pushed against the wall, however, two statues on sides got shattered into pieces. Then one of the Sith took out lightsaber but she simply yanked it of with the Force. She didn't even want to take out lightsaber, she wanted to quash them with Force alone but fight was interrupted.

In another scene Malgus came to medical center on blockaded Corruscant by Empire. As he walked outside he felt how people despised and feared him. His anger started increasing and he was absorbing their fear and suffering. He clapped his hands and gave Oppress like Force blast that turned cars upside down, injured/killed people and broke windows. And he wasn't described to make a particularly big effort in performing this feat.

In first fight with Malgus Aryn gave in to her rage completely(he killed her master). Whole fight she was on offensive, successfully blocked his lightning and seriously injured him with lightsaber. But fight was interrupted and she decided to fly away as killing him in anger would lead to darkside.
In their second fight she tried to fight without anger, she wasn't as offensive anymore and failed to block Force lightning with lightsabers like last time and as the result lost fight.

Malgus after fight was angered about a lot of things. Then he killed Twilek girl he truly loved, which can be referenced to a Sith saying: "He will sacrifice his love". It caused him enormous pain and far greater anger. After he totally dominated a Sith Lord he rivaled and the implication of that fight was that Malgus's anger was far stronger.
It's a great book. Strongly advice to read it.

Apart from these situations there are far more examples showing what enraged Force user can do. For instance Galen Marek's feats were achieved not just because of his potential but because he was psycho.

DARTH POWER

^ Point being if an enraged Ventress can choke Obi-Wan and Anakin together, then surely Count Dooku should be able to Force Choke Anakin in a one on one (assuming Anakin doesn't go into his Crystal clear state of mind).

Arhael

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ Point being if an enraged Ventress can choke Obi-Wan and Anakin together, then surely Count Dooku should be able to Force Choke Anakin in a one on one (assuming Anakin doesn't go into his Crystal clear state of mind).
Well, Dooku is surprisingly stable minded. And by nature of his Makashi style he relies on precision and self-control during fight. He is unlikely to experience that kind of rage Opress and Ventress did at the moment of Force choking.
The only example of him being truly enraged is, when Ventress with two nightsisters assassinated him, when he electrocuted and threw out of window all three of them.
Ventress and Opress did it only ones, they certainly wouldn't be able to do that in normal circumstances.

DARTH POWER

^ I understand Ventress can't do that any time she likes.

But what I'm saying is Dooku is so far ahead of Ventress in the force that she would need an absolutely huge boost to match/surpass him.

So I still think if Ventress can choke both Anakin and Obi-Wan in a bit of rage, then surely Count Dooku should be able to choke just Anakin in a one on one.

Arhael

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ I understand Ventress can't do that any time she likes.

But what I'm saying is Dooku is so far ahead of Ventress in the force that she would need an absolutely huge boost to match/surpass him.

So I still think if Ventress can choke both Anakin and Obi-Wan in a bit of rage, then surely Count Dooku should be able to choke just Anakin in a one on one.
If the circumstances were right for him to get much angrier, than usually, then why not. But in his last two encounters with Anakin he wasn't really angry.

Another fact to consider is that before Ventress Force choked Anakin, he wasn't angry and as focused. It's quite noticeable that with Obi-Wan present Anakin restrains himself and controls his emotions. Otherwise Obi-Wan would sense his anger and chide him for that. While, when Anakin fought Dooku alone, he was clearly amplified by anger and more focused.
Also, there was a factor of surprise as they Force pinned Ventress to the floor and considered her defeated, so presumably their guard was more or less down.

By the way Dooku did Force choke Anakin in one of the episodes, although, Anakin was tired up by magnaguards.

DARTH POWER

Yeah your right, he did choke him in Shadow Warrior.

Anakin's just too inconsistent though. Yes your right he clearly was holding back when he fought Ventress with Obi-Wan, but Eariler that same season he battled Ventress alone to pretty much a stalemate.

Im assuming he's getting more powerful each season, and I doubt Ventress would stalemate or get the better off him again.

Perhaps he gained more confidence in his abilities after Mortis.

Arhael

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah your right, he did choke him in Shadow Warrior.

Anakin's just too inconsistent though. Yes your right he clearly was holding back when he fought Ventress with Obi-Wan, but Eariler that same season he battled Ventress alone to pretty much a stalemate.

Im assuming he's getting more powerful each season, and I doubt Ventress would stalemate or get the better off him again.

Perhaps he gained more confidence in his abilities after Mortis. Ye, inconsistent but it is good as with consistency is boring smile

.
I am of opinion that with each season he was becoming not necessary more powerful but skilled in combat and use of Force as he wasn't really shown making any huge Force exertions. He was sorting things out mostly with lightsaber instead.
However, after Mortis he certainly should be much more powerful. Specifically in that situation, when he subdued Son and Daughter, it was kind of Force exertion, where he went beyond his limits. Naturally such feat should make him more attuned to the Force and set higher limits, hence making him more powerful.