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Peak Dooku; Revan.

Setting: Geonosis Arena

1. Force

2. Sabers

3. Anything goes.

Who emerges?

Revan. He is far more powerful in the force than Dooku. Dooku is good with a blade, but Revan has killed so many jedi, he would bring a lot of experience. It would not be a stomp for Revan, but Revan would win.

Revan. Dooku is not a pansy by any means, but his total force prowess doesn't match that of Revan.

While I'd personally place Revan on a power spectrum somewhere between Dooku and Yoda, Dooku has consistently demonstrated tremendous power in the Force and prodigious skill as a duelist.

Revan's best feats are his lightning absorption. Other than that though, I don't see anything that eclipses Dooku's skills with a lightsaber, or something that would let him beat Dooku with the Force.

Can you believe that today I saw a dude saying that Revan was the 2nd strongest Force User in history behind Luke? Lol, what a joke.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
While I'd personally place Revan on a power spectrum somewhere between Dooku and Yoda, Dooku has consistently demonstrated tremendous power in the Force and prodigious skill as a duelist.

I have to agree with The Tempest here. Dooku's raw swordsmanship should give him the solid edge here. It's not like Revan is so above him in the force he is going to give him the ragdoll treatment.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Revan's best feats are his lightning absorption. Other than that though, I don't see anything that eclipses Dooku's skills with a lightsaber, or something that would let him beat Dooku with the Force.

Essentially, yes.
My nigh-infallible gut and wisdom tells me Revan was clearly meant to be a prodigy whose abilities surpass even those of the formidable Count and his few showings do hint at a superior ability, but Dooku's feats are extremely impressive.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Essentially, yes.
My nigh-infallible gut and wisdom tells me Revan was clearly meant to be a prodigy whose abilities surpass even those of the formidable Count and his few showings do hint at a superior ability, but Dooku's feats are extremely impressive.

Yes, Drew obviously wanted him to be incredible with how far he surpassed Meetra and by being able to fight Vitiate, but in the end thats just empty power-scaling. Revan has little in the way of impressive feats.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes, Drew obviously wanted him to be incredible with how far he surpassed Meetra and by being able to fight Vitiate, but in the end thats just empty power-scaling. Revan has little in the way of impressive feats.

Not empty: Revan's few 'feats' are impressive and do speak of considerable mastery.

^Indeed. Dooku is also referred to by Yoda as the finest pupil he'd ever seen in the order. An impressive showing considering the prodigies that passed through the halls of the temple during Yoda's time as Grand Master.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not empty: Revan's few 'feats' are impressive and do speak of considerable mastery.
Perhaps a decade ago. But with materials like the original Clone Wars, TFU, DE, NJO Luke and KOTOR II it's not that impressive

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
^Indeed. Dooku is also referred to by Yoda as the finest pupil he'd ever seen in the order. An impressive showing considering the prodigies that passed through the halls of the temple during Yoda's time as Grand Master.

No doubt that Dooku's a beast of epic proportions and I believe it would be an extremely grueling fight either way.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
No doubt that Dooku's a beast of epic proportions and I believe it would be an extremely grueling fight either way.

I don't see how Revan can win. Dooku is the vastly superior swordsman, and Revan's edge in the force is not enough for him to win on that alone.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I don't see how Revan can win. Dooku is the vastly superior swordsman, and Revan's edge in the force is not enough for him to win on that alone.

True, true. I was simply thinking of the Force when it comes to a comparison; Revan has virtually nothing to go on by way of dueling prowess.

Revan's force feats put him above Dooku in a force battle

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Perhaps a decade ago. But with materials like the original Clone Wars, TFU, DE, NJO Luke and KOTOR II it's not that impressive

Casually deflecting lightning powerful enough to reduce to ash a woman who, in turn, was powerful enough to curbstomp the Exile and Scourge simultaneously is, in any context, an extremely impressive combat feat.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Casually deflecting lightning powerful enough to reduce to ash a woman who, in turn, was powerful enough to curbstomp the Exile and Scourge simultaneously is, in any context, an extremely impressive combat feat.

It's impressive but it doesn't even make the top 10 in terms of impressive force feats. Not when we have people destroying armies with a gesture, moving capital ships, and draining entire planets with a whisper.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
It's impressive but it doesn't even make the top 10 in terms of impressive force feats. Not when we have people destroying armies with a gesture, moving capital ships, and draining entire planets with a whisper.


I didn't know you were the sole arbiter of "top 10 force feats". At any rate, it's vastly more impressive than anything Dooku has shown with the force.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
It's impressive but it doesn't even make the top 10 in terms of impressive force feats. Not when we have people destroying armies with a gesture, moving capital ships, and draining entire planets with a whisper.

Given that none of these things occur in personal combat, whereas Revan's did, it's a moot point.

Originally posted by jdoe310
I didn't know you were the sole arbiter of "top 10 force feats". At any rate, it's vastly more impressive than anything Dooku has shown with the force.

Huh you reek of arrogant newcomer.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Huh you reek of arrogant newcomer.

Dooku!

Are we honestly thinking that Dooku can take Revan now? Revan was a Sith Master, proving that he was the strongest sith of his time. Dooku was never even close to the strongest sith of his time. And as for his dueling skills, Revan soundly defeated Malak in every lightsaber duel they ever had. Including the last one.

Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
Are we honestly thinking that Dooku can take Revan now? Revan was a Sith Master, proving that he was the strongest sith of his time.

Yeah, why not? Revan wasn't strongest sith of his time - Vitiate was.

And as for his dueling skills, Revan soundly defeated Malak in every lightsaber duel they ever had. Including the last one.

And what? Dooku was on par with Mace, and was able to hold his own, against Yoda.

Characters from games and comics are overrated.

Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
Are we honestly thinking that Dooku can take Revan now? Revan was a Sith Master, proving that he was the strongest sith of his time. Dooku was never even close to the strongest sith of his time. And as for his dueling skills, Revan soundly defeated Malak in every lightsaber duel they ever had. Including the last one.
I'll give you hint. Dooku stalemated the stronger combatant of his time in lightsaber combat and Force handled most powerful known Force user of all time on several occasions.


To be precise in film they were even. Yoda did not outperform him in any way.

Given that there were only four other Sith Lords active during the Count's lifetime, this isn't a point against him. He's at least stronger than Maul and Savage, and likely Tenebrous.

Originally posted by Arhael
Force handled most powerful known Force user of all time on several occasions.

When did Dooku fight Abeloth?



The script, novelization, and logical inference indicate otherwise.

Lol. I meant chosen one. Force handling even angered Anakin in CW should give at least some credit to him.

Visually Dooku was not driven back and he attacked Yoda even more than other way around. Film>Script+novelization+logical inference.

Originally posted by Arhael
Visually Dooku was not driven back and attack Yoda even more than otherwise. Film>Script+novelization+logical inference.

Script, novelization, logical inference > your interpretation of the film.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Script, novelization, logical inference > your interpretation of the film.
Script and novelization contradict film a lot. Logical inference is that argument is pointless. I go sleep. Good night.

Anyway, imho Dooku pawns Revan, that's what matters.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Revan's best feats are his lightning absorption. Other than that though, I don't see anything that eclipses Dooku's skills with a lightsaber, or something that would let him beat Dooku with the Force.

Can you believe that today I saw a dude saying that Revan was the 2nd strongest Force User in history behind Luke? Lol, what a joke.

Does Revan have feats now? Or is he still unknown? Other than having "charisma", I don't see nothing much from him.

There was a book about him as background for TOR. He has a few good feats.

Originally posted by Nephthys
There was a book about him as background for TOR. He has a few good feats.

About time Revan received some feats.

Originally posted by Zett
Yeah, why not? Revan wasn't strongest sith of his time - Vitiate was.
Correct. But Revan WAS the most powerful Jedi of his time.

Originally posted by Zett
And what? Dooku was on par with Mace, and was able to hold his own, against Yoda.
Now do some digging on Darth Nyriss. She put both Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik (Jedi Exile) to shame (simultaneously). And Revan, in turn, put Darth Nyriss to shame. This fight alone puts Revan above many in the mythos. And let me remind you that both Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik (Jedi Exile) themselves were EXPERT combatants and have held their own in many difficult situations (far above average).

Mace is good because of Vaapad and I do not buy this Dooku = Mace argument. Mace, during his prime, put Darth Sidious on his @ss, which Dooku could never do. Yoda is certainly BIG THING in the mythos. However, Yoda is very passive in his fighting approach. But Revan is not.

Seriously, you HAVE to be on the level of Darth Sidious or Lord Vitiate to handle Revan singlehandedly OR in a Strike Team comprised of very strong individuals.

Originally posted by Zett
Characters from games and comics are overrated.
No. KoTOR era characters do not get much screen time.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Correct. But Revan WAS the most powerful Jedi of his time.


Hero of Tython >>>>

Originally posted by Arhael
I'll give you hint. Dooku stalemated the stronger combatant of his time in lightsaber combat and Force handled most powerful known Force user of all time on several occasions.
I'll correct you here; if the stalemated guy is Master Yoda, then you are mistaken. Yes, Dooku did held his own for a while but HE KNEW that he had to FLEE or Yoda would have subdued him.

And if Anakin is the most powerful force user of all time - you are SO DEAD WRONG. Anakin had the POTENTIAL to become the most powerful but he did not got the chance to fully UNLOCK his POTENTIAL or put it to EFFECTIVE USE. Yes, Anakin did manage to use his BRUTE STRENGTH and MASSIVE RESERVES to subdue Dooku. But this does not proves that only Anakin could handle Dooku. The list isn't small actually.

Originally posted by Arhael
To be precise in film they were even. Yoda did not outperform him in any way.
You are wrong. Yoda was passive in his approach during the so-called Force contest. However, once Yoda got serious during lightsaber dueling - Dooku realized that he had to FLEE for his own good. Yoda WAS and ALWAYS HAD BEEN better then Dooku but his "passive mentality" has been his weakness.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Hero of Tython >>>>
Yes. Though this guy came much later in to the picture. 3 centuries is BIG TIME.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD


Mace is good because of Vaapad and I do not buy this Dooku = Mace argument. Mace, during his prime, put Darth Sidious on his @ss, which Dooku could never do.

A>B>C argument?

Dooku disposed of Obi-Wan with a flick of his wrist. I personally don't see Mace disposing of Obi-Wan with such ridiculous ease.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes, Anakin did manage to use his BRUTE STRENGTH and MASSIVE RESERVES to subdue Dooku. But this does not proves that only Anakin could handle Dooku.

Yes but his ridiculous amount natural power in the force did give him incredible strength and force reserves. So I also wouldn't start arguing that just because Anakin defeated Dooku in close combat, that anyone who is a powerful saber duelist in the mythos could do likewise.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes, Dooku did held his own for a while but HE KNEW that he had to FLEE or Yoda would have subdued him.



Still Yoda was the most powerful Jedi in the PT/OT era. Seemingly superior to Sidious in combat.

So I really don't think people give Dooku the credit he deserves for briefly holding his own against Yoda.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes. Though this guy came much later in to the picture. 3 centuries is BIG TIME.

Fair enough. They're in the same era though.

Have you seen the new quotes for Vitiate?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
indeed

Well, got the opportunity to flip through the newly-released The Old Republic Encyclopedia. My initial impression is that it's one of the finest reference works ever released under the Star Wars brand name; some 400 pages long and brimming with both text and images.

Some tidbits that some of you may find interesting:

Of KotOR 2's Sith triumvirate, Kreia and Sion each receive one mention in the book, with Nihilus supreme at a total of 3
The Sith Empire is said to field "millions" of troops across "thousands" of planets
The Republic Navy is said to consist of "hundreds" of fleets
The fate of both Revan and Vitiate is left ambiguous


With respect to Vitiate, he is frequently described as "supremely powerful" (an appellation he shares with ), "godlike", and an "avatar" of the dark side, not to mention "brilliant", "genius", "mastermind", etc. Page 148 explicitly refers to him as "history's most powerful dark side master." The book also claims it took a "fraction" of his powers to corrupt Revan and Malak "in mere moments."

Further details on his ritual are available: 8,000 Sith Lords gathered on Medriaas/Nathema to participate the ritual, which lasted ten days. Vitiate "orchestrated the sorcery" and the planet was "consumed by the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see." The Emperor's Voice is said to "wield the Emperor's incredible power and is capable of striking down anyone who displeases him."

Enjoy.

@Nephthys

Thanks for the share. To be honest, I am not surprised. Once again! My assessment is turning out to be correct.

TOR lore IS redefining Star Wars mythos. And this is actually a refreshment for the mythos.

I wonder! How much of a bad@ss Hero of Tython is. He may be as good as Luke or possibly better? (He certainly needs decent amout of screen time or novels)

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
A>B>C argument?

Dooku disposed of Obi-Wan with a flick of his wrist. I personally don't see Mace disposing of Obi-Wan with such ridiculous ease.
Dooku was Obi-Wan's superior in the command of the Force. Same may be true for Mace but this is open to debate. I have stated before that Vaapad makes Mace special and not his comand of the Force.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yes but his ridiculous amount natural power in the force did give him incredible strength and force reserves. So I also wouldn't start arguing that just because Anakin defeated Dooku in close combat, that anyone who is a powerful saber duelist in the mythos could do likewise.
I agree. However, Revan is not "anyone".

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Still Yoda was the most powerful Jedi in the PT/OT era. Seemingly superior to Sidious in combat.
Yoda's passive nature was his weakness.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So I really don't think people give Dooku the credit he deserves for briefly holding his own against Yoda.
I do. However, claiming that that particular duel puts Dooku on par with Yoda is ridiculous. Yoda comfortably fended off Dooku's Force attacks and then proceeded to subdue him with his lightsaber skills. Unfortunately, circumstances did not favored Yoda during this duel and Dooku fled. Yoda actually had SOFT CORNER for Dooku. To Yoda, Dooku was a promising individual and his loss was felt.

Point is that their used to be a time when Dooku looked special. However, this is no longer the case now.

I'm not sure how badass the Hero of Tython is. He defeated a weakened Emperor's Voice. While impressive, it's not as impressive as holding your own against the actual Emperor.

According to the new sourcebook the Voice wields the Emperors incredible power. And in the lightside version of the JK story the Emperor has time to recover. Plus the fight occured inside a strong darkside nexus and the Knight had to fight to get to the Emperor.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Dooku was Obi-Wan's superior in the command of the Force. Same may be true for Mace but this is open to debate. I have stated before that Vaapad makes Mace special and not his comand of the Force.

I was simply arguing the notion that just because Mace put Sidious on his ass does not necessarily dictate that Mace is above Dooku.

Just like Dooku defeating Obi-Wan with ridiculous ease doesn't necessarily mean he's more powerful than people like Anakin or Mace who would likely take much longer in defeating Kenobi.

Likewise Vapaad handles Sidious's ferocious attacks much better than Makashi would but that doesn't mean Mace with Vapaad would stomp all over Dooku's Makashi.





Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I do. However, claiming that that particular duel puts Dooku on par with Yoda is ridiculous. Yoda comfortably fended off Dooku's Force attacks and then proceeded to subdue him with his lightsaber skills. Unfortunately, circumstances did not favored Yoda during this duel and Dooku fled. Yoda actually had SOFT CORNER for Dooku. To Yoda, Dooku was a promising individual and his loss was felt.



I didn't say that they were equals. Just that for Dooku to fight him off like that says a lot about his Saber prowess considering Yoda seems to have battered even Sidious in their Saber duel (though that was not shown on screen).

And I think this "Soft Corner" thing holding Yoda back is quite speculative. Obi-Wan likely cared much more for Anakin, but I doubt anyone will argue he didn't bring his best game to their fight.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Correct. But Revan WAS the most powerful Jedi of his time.

And Dooku was second - after Yoda - of his time.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Mace is good because of Vaapad and I do not buy this Dooku = Mace argument.

It's your problem, that you don't agree with facts. Dooku beats Mace in a sparing, before he left the order. During Clone Wars, he was described, as strongest, wisest and most learned in the ways of the force Yoda's order student. He fall into dark side, and became even more powerful Sith Lord. Clearly, his force powers were beyond Mace's.
Mace in the same time, became a master of the Vaapad. And then, he was described as Dooku equals in sabers.

Once again: Dooku hold his own against Yoda twice, hold his own against Mace and Kenobi(it's a canon, right?), and was able to destroy some people, which Mace has problem with (Sora Bulq for expample).

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Mace, during his prime, put Darth Sidious on his @ss, which Dooku could never do.

In pure saber duel? I believe, he could. Mace won, because of his form advantage (I mean, Vaapad > Juyo). He hasn't this advantage against Dooku's Makashi.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
However, Yoda is very passive in his fighting approach. But Revan is not.

Yoda wasn't passive at all.

and he is not hing resembling the whirlwind of destruction that Yoda canbecome.

This whirlwind of destruction was able to disarm Sidious, was able to deflect lightning, and was the strongest jedi in TK skill.

Yeah, very passive...

Originally posted by Nephthys
According to the new sourcebook the Voice wields the Emperors incredible power. And in the lightside version of the JK story the Emperor has time to recover. Plus the fight occured inside a strong darkside nexus and the Knight had to fight to get to the Emperor.

He had companions with him so that's unknown. I'm not saying it wasn't impressive but Revan did the same thing, against a full strength Emperor.

Originally posted by Nephthys
According to the new sourcebook the Voice wields the Emperors incredible power. And in the lightside version of the JK story the Emperor has time to recover. Plus the fight occured inside a strong darkside nexus and the Knight had to fight to get to the Emperor.


This guy would laugh at whole armies.

Though their is lot more in this encounter, if analyzed properly.

Originally posted by jdoe310
He had companions with him so that's unknown. I'm not saying it wasn't impressive but Revan did the same thing, against a full strength Emperor.

He has a utility droid with him. Lol, do you think T7 was much of a factor against 'history's most powerful dark side master'? Or his defenses?

Revan lost. Against an Emperor with 300 years less Force Mastery and experience.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He has a utility droid with him. Lol, do you think T7 was much of a factor against 'history's most powerful dark side master'? Or his defenses?

Revan lost. Against an Emperor with 300 years less Force Mastery and experience.

Revan lost to the ACTUAL Emperor in the ACTUAL Emperor's body, and only when Scourge betrayed him. The Hero of Tython defeated a weakened Emperor's Voice.

According to the sourcebook and the in-game codex the Voice wields the Emperor's power. Fighting the Voice is the same as fighting the Emperor. Besides which it is still unsubstantiated that the Knight fought the Voice instead of the true Emperor.

The Knight either defeated the Emperor or the Emperor's equivalent who had 300 years extra training and dark side study on the one Revan fought. And he fought him inside an extremely potent darkside nexus and after fighting to get to him. And the Emperor(s Voice) had plenty of time to recover plus the Hero "disappated your energy saving the weak.". What the Hero did utterly eclipses what Revan did.

Besides, how do you know that Revan did not also fight the Emperor's Voice?

If you want to make a Hero of Tython vs Revan thread I'd be open to discuss this further with you. Other than that I think we're done here.

Originally posted by Nephthys
According to the sourcebook and the in-game codex the Voice wields the Emperor's power. Fighting the Voice is the same as fighting the Emperor. Besides which it is still unsubstantiated that the Knight fought the Voice instead of the true Emperor.
It's not unsubstantiated, it's outright stated that you fought the Emperor's Voice and his essence went back into his true body. Furthermore, the Emperor divides his essence among several bodies including Children, so it's highly unlikely these essences wield the Emperor's FULL power.


There's nothing indicating that the Voice is the equivalent of the Emperor, just that he wields some amount of power of the Emperor. And the Hero fought him on Dromund Kaas, just like Revan did. Revan and his companions fought their way into the throne room, just like the Hero and his companions did. Also, please indicate where this "plenty of time to recover" comes from. The Voice is repeatedly referred to as "weakened".



Because, it is stated that the Emperor started using Children and spreading around his essence because of his fight with Revan.

Yup, we're done here alright.

No qualifier is attached to the quote about the Voice wielding the Emperor's incredible power and it is dishonest for anyone to suggest otherwise.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
No qualifier is attached to the quote about the Voice wielding the Emperor's incredible power and it is dishonest for anyone to suggest otherwise. Yup

I think he's agreeing with me, jdoe.

That works both ways.

But the text makes overt comparisons between the Voice and Vitiate, from literal tone of voice to a broader statements like "to speak with the Voice is to speak with the Emperor." There is nothing that distinguishes the two and contextually, it does follow that the Voice wields the Emperor's full power.

Nephthys is correct to demand evidence of the contrary.

Oh and you're wrong. The Hero of Tython fights Vitiate in the Dark Temple. Revan fought him in the Sith Emperor's Citadel. According to the Codex, the Dark Temple:

'Hundreds of years ago, the Sith Emperor ordered the construction of the Dark Temple as a burial place for his dead and defeated enemies, "to aid them in becoming one with the Force." Little is known of what rituals the Emperor performed there, but the Dark Temple has become a nexus of powerful dark side energy, and a place where ancient weapons and ancient secrets of the Sith lay sealed away in cavernous chambers.'

The Dark Temple is an uncommonly powerful dark side nexus. I don't believe that its ever stated that Dromund Kaas is though. Even if it is, the Dark Temple surely is more powerful to warrant special mention.

Perhaps future additions to the game will shed light on the excruciatingly embarrassing outcome of their duel, but while it is reasonable to conclude that Vitiate was history's most powerful dark side Master, it is farfetched to conclude that a god would lose in spite of such overwhelming advantages against a relatively common foe. Especially in light of the fact that the cutscenes indicate that the Knight beat him fair and square.

I take issue with the Hero of Tython being a 'relatively common foe.' It's clear that s/he's incredibly powerful, as Vitiate himself notes in their duel. In light of the victory I see no reason why the Hero shouldn't logically rank with the most powerful light side masters in the mythos.

In fact, its hinted that the Hero may become the next Emperor.

But getting back to the thread topic, while my gut tells me Revan is more powerful, Dooku enjoys a superiority by way of feats from swordsmanship to general Force use.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I take issue with the Hero of Tython being a 'relatively common foe.' It's clear that s/he's incredibly powerful, as Vitiate himself notes in their duel. In light of the victory I see no reason why the Hero shouldn't logically rank with the most powerful light side masters in the mythos.

Incredibly powerful compared to a being purported to be a god? Even by the most liberal estimation, it's an incredibly lopsided match in Vitiate's favor. Which is the thrust of my point: either the Hero is much more powerful than the text suggests or Vitiate is being overhyped as hell.

Or it was a trap.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh and you're wrong. The Hero of Tython fights Vitiate in the Dark Temple. Revan fought him in the Sith Emperor's Citadel. According to the Codex, the Dark Temple:

'Hundreds of years ago, the Sith Emperor ordered the construction of the Dark Temple as a burial place for his dead and defeated enemies, "to aid them in becoming one with the Force." Little is known of what rituals the Emperor performed there, but the Dark Temple has become a nexus of powerful dark side energy, and a place where ancient weapons and ancient secrets of the Sith lay sealed away in cavernous chambers.'

The Dark Temple is an uncommonly powerful dark side nexus. I don't believe that its ever stated that Dromund Kaas is though. Even if it is, the Dark Temple surely is more powerful to warrant special mention.

Going to have to ignore this piece of evidence as it is quite contradictory. There was already a "dark temple" on dromund kaas so there are now two. And furthermore, you'll have to explain how the emperor can construct a temple which houses sith spirits much older than he was.

Which spirits?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Incredibly powerful compared to a being purported to be a god? Even by the most liberal estimation, it's an incredibly lopsided match in Vitiate's favor. Which is the thrust of my point: either the Hero is much more powerful than the text suggests or Vitiate is being overhyped as hell.

Or it was a trap.

Hence why hyperbolic descriptions are ignored. It's clear to me that the Knight is meant to be more powerful than the Emperor. Its that simple imo.

The hero was stated as having the most potential in "centuries". That compliment is hardly indicative of his stature as one of the top guys in the mythos.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Which spirits?



Hence why hyperbolic descriptions are ignored. It's clear to me that the Knight is meant to be more powerful than the Emperor. Its that simple imo. It's really not.

Which spirits? Lets start with Kallig, who was a contemporary of Tulak Hord.

'Centuries' is very ambiguous.

Maybe the Emperor moved his body into the Dark Temple, or built it on top of another structure.

Originally posted by Nephthys
'Centuries' is very ambiguous.

Maybe the Emperor moved his body into the Dark Temple, or built it on top of another structure.
Maybe the writers of bioware are stupid and therefore we cannot discuss something that is an obvious contradiction?

Maybe no. The Dark Temple doesn't suddenly disappear or cease to be a dark side nexus because of a possible continuity error that has other explanations.

Its worth noting that the codex also says that 'Although the Dark Temple grounds have always been a dangerous place for the weak-willed (the expansion of the Kaas City power grid into tunnels beneath the temple drove a thousand slaves mad)'. More proof of the Temples strong dark side energy.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Maybe no. The Dark Temple doesn't suddenly disappear or cease to be a dark side nexus because of a possible continuity error that has other explanations.
But it does bring into question if there are really two dark temples and which one it's referring to. Again, can't build a temple that houses spirits older than you.

Sure you can. Its a burial place. The Emperor could just re-bury those people in the Dark Temple. Move the spirits maybe.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sure you can. Its a burial place. The Emperor could just re-bury those people in the Dark Temple. Move the spirits maybe.

Lol, it's that kind of speculation which makes this specific conversation nothing more than guessing games.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I was simply arguing the notion that just because Mace put Sidious on his ass does not necessarily dictate that Mace is above Dooku.

Just like Dooku defeating Obi-Wan with ridiculous ease doesn't necessarily mean he's more powerful than people like Anakin or Mace who would likely take much longer in defeating Kenobi.

Likewise Vapaad handles Sidious's ferocious attacks much better than Makashi would but that doesn't mean Mace with Vapaad would stomp all over Dooku's Makashi.
I do understand the dynamic aspects of conflicts. However, I feel that you are giving too much credit to the styles. Sidious is superior to Dooku in several aspects; swordsmanship; intelligence; command of the Force. And yet he failed against Mace. What makes you think that Dooku would have succeeded in Sidious' place? Bladework alone does not makes difference. Several other attributes make difference such as speed, psychology, awareness and vice versa. And even if we consider bladework, Vaapad does not disappoints. Yes, it can be argued that without Vaapad, Mace may be outclassed by Dooku. However, Mace addressed his combat related shortcomings through his invention and command of Vaapad. Now I am not saying that Mace became unstoppable due to Vaapad. He could be bested but with a approach other then lightsaber combat - in case of a darksider. A lightsider may still take him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I didn't say that they were equals. Just that for Dooku to fight him off like that says a lot about his Saber prowess considering Yoda seems to have battered even Sidious in their Saber duel (though that was not shown on screen).
I understand. However, some do consider Dooku to be comparable to Yoda in combat prowess; just look at the posts of member Arhael as an example. This is a fallacy. Yoda's passiveness is the issue.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And I think this "Soft Corner" thing holding Yoda back is quite speculative. Obi-Wan likely cared much more for Anakin, but I doubt anyone will argue he didn't bring his best game to their fight.
Mindset is the key word. Yoda is passive in his approach to combat situations. As an example: Yoda went to face Darth Sidious and his guard down was surprisingly down even when he knew that Darth Sidious was a force to be reckoned with; Sidious unleashed a sudden burst of lightning and it caught Yoda by surprise. To further highlight the issue; if Yoda was facing Darth Nihilus in this scenario; he would have ended up dead because of his passiveness.

Of-course, when Yoda goes on the offensive - he surely gets the job done, even if for a moment. But he is not a aggressive combatant and gets serious after a while. In this manner, he grants too much opportunity to his opponent.

As far as fight between ROTS Anakin and Obi-Wan is concerned; Anakin was doomed from the start. Anakin confronted Obi-Wan on his strong point and no wonder he did not succeed. Anakin had no real advantage over Obi-Wan in his understanding of the Force and this was a big drawback for him. Obi-Wan was more patient and calculative and got the upperhand eventually (Obi-Wan is also wiser and less reckless). It can also be argued that Anakin's emotions got the better of him during this duel due to his tension with Padme but he also had no clear advantage either. In contrast, Dooku could rely on his superior command of the Force to overwhelm Obi-Wan, when he wanted to. Dooku had this advantage over Anakin as well but his own foolishness or cockiness also played some part in his demise at the hands of the latter.

Originally posted by jdoe310
Lol, it's that kind of speculation which makes this specific conversation nothing more than guessing games.

There's no guessing about the fact that those quotes exist. If you want to ignore evidence then go right ahead. Don't expect me to take you seriously though. You're seeing contradictions where none exist.

Originally posted by Zett
And Dooku was second - after Yoda - of his time.
What about Mace? Wasn't he regarded as second to Yoda among the Jedi? And if I am not mistaken, Anoon Bondara was also held in high regard.

Dooku is undoubtedly impressive but he isn't so grand when considering the entire mythos.

Originally posted by Zett
It's your problem, that you don't agree with facts. Dooku beats Mace in a sparing, before he left the order.
You don't think that Mace got better afterwards? This is logical fallacy.

Originally posted by Zett
During Clone Wars, he was described, as strongest, wisest and most learned in the ways of the force Yoda's order student. He fall into dark side, and became even more powerful Sith Lord. Clearly, his force powers were beyond Mace's.
Really?

Anakin once speculated that Obi-Wan was as wise as Master Yoda and as powerful as Mace. Was he?

And maybe you also know that what once Kriea said about Revan?

It is understood that Dooku was among the elite in his time. But an elite can get his @ss kicked by another elite.

Originally posted by Zett
Mace in the same time, became a master of the Vaapad. And then, he was described as Dooku equals in sabers.
Mace got better later on. This apparent from his duel against Sidious.

Originally posted by Zett
Once again: Dooku hold his own against Yoda twice, hold his own against Mace and Kenobi(it's a canon, right?), and was able to destroy some people, which Mace has problem with (Sora Bulq for expample).
Please drop this Yoda based argument. His passiveness is an issue. Yes, Mace may have sucked in some fights but he was learning.

Originally posted by Zett
In pure saber duel? I believe, he could. Mace won, because of his form advantage (I mean, Vaapad > Juyo). He hasn't this advantage against Dooku's Makashi.
Vaapad works against any darksider.

Originally posted by Zett
Yoda wasn't passive at all.

and he is not hing resembling the whirlwind of destruction that Yoda canbecome.

This whirlwind of destruction was able to disarm Sidious, was able to deflect lightning, and was the strongest jedi in TK skill.

Yeah, very passive...
It isn't hard to notice Yoda's passiveness. Their are moments when Yoda certainly gets serious. And when he does; Dooku flees.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Incredibly powerful compared to a being purported to be a god? Even by the most liberal estimation, it's an incredibly lopsided match in Vitiate's favor. Which is the thrust of my point: either the Hero is much more powerful than the text suggests or Vitiate is being overhyped as hell.

Or it was a trap.
My take on this particular duel is that Vitiate made a miscalculation and paid for it; he got two close to Hero of Tython to be safe from his lightsaber strikes.

I think that power was not an issue for Vitiate; even after getting struck down, he effortlessely caused the collapse of the entire Dark Temple. And even Satele Shan was reluctant to confront Vitiate directly. So power was never an issue.

But things were not good for Vitiate during this encounter. He was betrayed by his Wrath and arguably became temporarily vulnerable after disruption of his super-ritual and may have been not thinking very rationally like he normally does. Outcome was certainly embarrassing. But then even the strongest of all sometimes have low moments.

However, I also agree with member Nephthys on his perspective regarding power of the Hero of Tython. It makes sense to do so. This individual is afterall the 'prophesized champion of the Light' by Revan. And this individual is immensely powerful by Vitiate's own admission - this should be taken very seriously. You can say that this guy is like a one-man-army or something; possibly a refreshment in contrast to Luke.

Originally posted by Nephthys
There's no guessing about the fact that those quotes exist. If you want to ignore evidence then go right ahead. Don't expect me to take you seriously though. You're seeing contradictions where none exist.

I just pointed a clear one out for you. If you want to ignore it or rationalize, go ahead.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I do understand the dynamic aspects of conflicts. However, I feel that you are giving too much credit to the styles. Sidious is superior to Dooku in several aspects; swordsmanship; intelligence; command of the Force. And yet he failed against Mace. What makes you think that Dooku would have succeeded in Sidious' place?

Well in terms of skill I'd say Dooku is Sidious's superior in pure fencing. Sidious is however faster and stronger.

But since Vapaad seems to be particularly good at deflecting furious, aggressive and powerful strikes that gave Mace an advantage over Sidious in their sword fight. An advantage that may not hold up as well against Count Dooku. See how the Count handled Sora Bulq as an example.

And I'm not sure what your point is about Sidious having a greater command of the Force than Dooku, since Sidious didn't use any Force Tk against Mace. (The script and novel both have one force push in there which almost finished Mace off btw).

Every combatant has different strengths and weakness's. Who would have thought that replacing Dooku with Obi-Wan would be a worse scenario for Anakin after the complete stomping Dooku gave Obi-Wan??


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I understand. However, some do consider Dooku to be comparable to Yoda in combat prowess; just look at the posts of member Arhael as an example. This is a fallacy. Yoda's passiveness is the issue.




Well there obviously is a comparison or there would never have been a fight in AOTC. Let alone such an even looking fight.

That doesn't mean they actually are equals.

But it seems you and others when comparing Mace and Dooku want to keep bringing up Mace's defeat over Sidious but keep ignoring Dooku somewhat holding his own against a superior combatant to both Sidious and Mace.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
...See how the Count handled Sora Bulq as an example.

He handled him w/ FL if I remember correctly. That has little to do w/ Vaapad.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
He handled him w/ FL if I remember correctly. That has little to do w/ Vaapad.

He handled him in Sabers as well. Casually disarmed him off his shoto while fighting off Tholme.

Lol. I like how you adopted proffessor style talk from recently.

What is real fallasy is to see things in black and white. All characters have their weaknesses and strengths. Dooku could fight both Kenobi and Anakin simultaniously, yet, got disarmed by single swing of Opress. In turn Maul casually handled Opress and both of them couldn't defeat Kenobi.
No matter how cleverly "This is a fallasy" sounds, it still has no weight as it supported by nothing more than your opinion.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well in terms of skill I'd say Dooku is Sidious's superior in pure fencing. Sidious is however faster and stronger.
Sidious is master of all lightsaber combat forms.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But since Vapaad seems to be particularly good at deflecting furious, aggressive and powerful strikes that gave Mace an advantage over Sidious in their sword fight. An advantage that may not hold up as well against Count Dooku. See how the Count handled Sora Bulq as an example.
I wouldn't consider Sora on the level of Mace in command of Vaapad. Mace is the only individual who mastered Vaapad properly. Any combat style can be effective, if its practitioner has absolute command over it.

Of course, I am not implying that Dooku is not a match for Mace in lightsaber combat; Dooku technically might be. However, Mace eventually gained such a command of Vaapad that it helped him go toe-to-toe with one of the greatest lightsaber combatants in history, nullifying the advantage of even this kind of adversary in the process. Therefore, I am advocating caution.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And I'm not sure what your point is about Sidious having a greater command of the Force than Dooku, since Sidious didn't use any Force Tk against Mace. (The script and novel both have one force push in there which almost finished Mace off btw).
Maybe it was the location or that Mace did not give his adversary the chance.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Every combatant has different strengths and weakness's. Who would have thought that replacing Dooku with Obi-Wan would be a worse scenario for Anakin after the complete stomping Dooku gave Obi-Wan??
I fully understand the concept of strengths and weaknesses.

Check my explanation:

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
As far as fight between ROTS Anakin and Obi-Wan is concerned; Anakin was doomed from the start. Anakin confronted Obi-Wan on his strong point and no wonder he did not succeed. Anakin had no real advantage over Obi-Wan in his understanding of the Force and this was a big drawback for him. Obi-Wan was more patient and calculative and got the upperhand eventually (Obi-Wan is also wiser and less reckless). It can also be argued that Anakin's emotions got the better of him during this duel due to his tension with Padme but he also had no clear advantage either. In contrast, Dooku could rely on his superior command of the Force to overwhelm Obi-Wan, when he wanted to. Dooku had this advantage over Anakin as well but his own foolishness or cockiness also played some part in his demise at the hands of the latter.
Did you notice the term "strong point" above? This is very important factor.

Since you are talking about strengths and weaknesses; it is always UNWISE to confront an adversary on his/her strong aspects (strengths). Advantage is gained by exploiting the weak aspects (weaknesses).

Mace' command of Vaapad is his strong point. Confronting Mace at his strong point would be a gamble; success may or may not be guaranteed. Sidious attempted and failed as an example (and Sidious' proficiency in lightsaber combat needs no introduction). However, I do believe that it is possible to subdue Mace through other means. So Dooku' chances against (ROTS) Mace might be better with his command of the Force rather then his skills with the lightsaber.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well there obviously is a comparison or there would never have been a fight in AOTC. Let alone such an even looking fight.

That doesn't mean they actually are equals.
You are contradicting yourself here. Yoda is Dooku' superior in most aspects. However, Yoda is passive in his approach to things. He provided ample opportunity to Dooku to demonstrate his powers and even escape.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But it seems you and others when comparing Mace and Dooku want to keep bringing up Mace's defeat over Sidious but keep ignoring Dooku somewhat holding his own against a superior combatant to both Sidious and Mace.
I am not ignoring it. It is possible that Dooku may go toe-to-toe with (ROTS) Mace for longer period then Sidious but then their is no guarantee that the former individual may succeed. Because by the time of ROTS, Mace' command of Vaapad was exceptional/unique and he did put another noteworthy lightsaber combatant on his @ss to PROVE his skill.

Originally posted by Arhael
Lol. I like how you adopted proffessor style talk from recently.
Maybe, it is my progress in education.

Originally posted by Arhael
What is real fallasy is to see things in black and white. All characters have their weaknesses and strengths.
Trust me, I like to focus on grey areas too. I fully understand the concept of strengths and weaknesses.

Originally posted by Arhael
Dooku could fight both Kenobi and Anakin simultaniously, yet, got disarmed by single swing of Opress.
Opress' greater physical strength seems to be the reason. This is one of his strong points (strengths). In comparison, Dooku is not as physically strong as Opress, therefore this is his weakness against Opress.

Dooku, however, have overwhelmed Opress with his greater command of the Force. This is one of his strong points (strengths). In comparison, Opress is inferior in his command of the Force, therefore this is his weakness against Dooku.

Point is that advantage comes from exploiting the weaknesses.

Originally posted by Arhael
In turn Maul casually handled Opress and both of them couldn't defeat Kenobi.
I admit that I have not seen these duels so I am not in the position to comment on these at the moment. However, their would be explanations for sure.

And it is possible that Kenobi has become more powerful then both Maul and Opress.

Originally posted by Arhael
No matter how cleverly "This is a fallasy" sounds, it still has no weight as it supported by nothing more than your opinion.
Their are lot more examples that I can use to support my point. So please refrain from passing quick judgements.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD


However, I do believe that it is possible to subdue Mace through other means. So Dooku' chances against (ROTS) Mace might be better with his command of the Force rather then his skills with the lightsaber.

I'm of the opinion that with a combination of both, elegant Makashi to fend off Mace's powerful strikes and simultaneous use of Force Tk, Dooku would certainly give Mace hell.

Whether he could actually beat him or not, I don't know.






Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am not ignoring it. It is possible that Dooku may go toe-to-toe with (ROTS) Mace for longer period then Sidious

I think it would be a longer fight, due to Dooku prolonging the fight fending off his attacks instead of matching his power for power (in Sabers).


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
but then their is no guarantee that the former individual may succeed. Because by the time of ROTS, Mace' command of Vaapad was exceptional/unique and he did put another noteworthy lightsaber combatant on his @ss to PROVE his skill.

Oh no, I never actually said Dooku was the superior combatant or that he would actually defeat Mace.

I just think in a one on one they would be more on par than people usually give Dooku credit for.

Many people point to Mace beating Sidious and Anakin beating Dooku as supposed evidence that Mace would stomp Dooku. Whilst I don't believe in a one on one between them the difference would be that large at all.

In my opinion Dooku simply didn't expect his attack to be that strong. He never fought such strong opponent. After all Opress on introduction pawned pretty much everyone. Only later Kenobi and others learned to fight against him.

On the other hand Dooku demonstrated that he is more than capable to cope with strong opponents in fights with Anakin. Anakin won him because of superior power, not Form advantage. And still Anakin never outdueled him in pure saber fight. In CW he won by kicking him and in RotS - by grapling technique, he exposed Dooku's lack of unarmed combat skills.

Also, interesting fact is that Maul used Makashi to counter Opress' strength. It shows that Makashi can be one of the best options to counter opponent's strength as well.


Heh. Let me give you a bit more of brainmelting info. Maul stomped Opress, which implies that Opress is weaker combatant. Yet, Opress blocked and dodged all Kenobi's offensive lightsaber attacks, which were overwhelming even Maul. CW is really gray gray area, when it comes to determining combat and Force prowess.

Well, I didn't rush to any quick judgements. You accused my opinion of being falacy and that's why we are talking.

My opinion is based on film. There is no hint of Dooku being even slightly overwhelmed by Yoda. The only logical assumption is that, if he continued fighting, he would get tired faster because not only Yoda has greater reserves, Dooku spent energy to defeat Kenobi and Anakin as well.

Again I will refer to Dooku's fights with Anakin. Anakin wasn't weakling in sabers. In novel Dooku stated him to be as fine Djem So practitioner as he ever met. And novel said that Anakin had thousands hours of sparring with Kenobi.
If Dooku could fight so well without significant skill advantage against far more powerful Anakin, why is it so hard to believe that he could stalemate Yoda, who not only was less powerful than Anakin but had to waste a lot of his power just to overcome his physical limitations?

As you see it's all subject to interpetation. We did have prolong argument before and it led us nowhere because we both had valid feats, facts and comparisons to support our opinions. And this case is similar. We are better to avoid accusing each other of being wrong and just get over it.

Dooku's specialty is dueling and fencing (Makashi) so when he fights opponents, he usually tries to tire them out and then finish them off. This didn't work against Anakin because Anakin's ability to get stronger as fights go on. The Force can only help Dooku so long, and Anakin has vastly higher Force reserves than Dooku has. That is why Sidious wanted Anakin.