Darth Plagueis Versus Darth Caedus

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Battlemaster
http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/319px-Darth_Plagueis.jpg
VS
http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/459px-C-GA_War.jpg

SETTING:http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/51712zx2.jpg

Peak Darth Plagueis and peak Darth Caedus are wisked away through space and time, to do battle in Paplatine's Office.

They are bloodlusted, and very much want to kill each other.


1. Force

2. Sabers

3. Anything goes.



Who survives?

Battlemaster
In retrospect, this seems like it would be one HELL of a fight.. drool

axel_jovan
Originally posted by Battlemaster
In retrospect, this seems like it would be one HELL of a fight.. drool QFT


I'd venture a guess that:

1) Sabers: Caedus

2) Force: Plagueis

3) All-out: possibly Plagueis

Nephthys
Plagueis is fast, strong and skilled enough to win the lightsaber fight imo.

axel_jovan
^ Dunno. Caedus is supposed to be a beast in that department.
Winning with Katarn and giving Luke hell seems to pop in mind.

Battlemaster
I can imagine them, tearing the crap out of each other..

Nephthys
Plagueis is strong enough to punch through space-age battle-armor with his bare hands and can move so fast that a droid with advanced optics can't track him. He's pretty legit. Not saying Caedus is a slouch, but he's outgunned here imo.

axel_jovan
As I know jack-sh*t about Plageuis, except some info from this forum and Wiki, I'm gonna say...yeah, maybe. wink

Battlemaster
I wonder who Lightsnake would back.

Arhael
As it is selfish vs selfless, in terms of power by default it goes to Plagueis. However, in terms of versatility with use of the Force it goes to Caedus.

Caedus was trained by Luke and fought much more clever and dirtier, than any other character I know, so with lightsaber it easily goes to him.

Overly I would give it to Caedus but don't know much about Plagueis. It's just hard imagining anyone else fighting as clever as Caedus. How he managed to take advantage of every single Luke's mistake and kept fighting with serious wounds is just amazing.

Battlemaster
Originally posted by Arhael
As it is selfish vs selfless, in terms of power by default it goes to Plagueis. However, in terms of versatility with use of the Force it goes to Caedus.

Caedus was trained by Luke and fought much more clever and dirtier, than any other character I know, so with lightsaber it easily goes to him.

Overly I would give it to Caedus but don't know much about Plagueis. It's just hard imagining anyone else fighting as clever as Caedus. How he managed to take advantage of every single Luke's mistake and kept fighting with serious wounds is just amazing.


Didn't Luke beat Caedus like he was a piece of his property?

Board Walker
I thought Caedus and Luke ended in a stalemate, with both luke and Caedus sustaining heavy injuries (caedus more so).

Lord Lucien
God, those pictures both suck.

Arhael
Originally posted by Battlemaster
Didn't Luke beat Caedus like he was a piece of his property? In fight with Luke competency of a Sith is determined by amount of time they were able to survive. Caedus is the record holder.

Battlemaster
But how would he fare against the full might of Plagueis?

truejedi
abeloth has probably survived a bit longer. she has actually had the upper hand against luke on more than one occasion.

Zampanó
Caedus is particularly talented with a blade. Have we seen anything from Plageius that matches him?

Rogue Gladiator
Originally posted by Nephthys
Plagueis is strong enough to punch through space-age battle-armor with his bare hands and can move so fast that a droid with advanced optics can't track him. He's pretty legit. Not saying Caedus is a slouch, but he's outgunned here imo.

Actually...Caedus has done both of these. Well, at least the first (in Invincible, he shatters the lightsaber-proof beskar armor, using shatterpoint, with a tap). He has also deflected turbolasers from a Chiss dropship. That are, like, supposed to rank kilotons at full power.

Plageuis, according to the back of the hardcover, is "the most powerful sith who had ever lived", presumably before Sidious. But Caedus is exempt from this quote. I haven't actually read my Plageuis copy yet, so maybe I should wait.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by truejedi
abeloth has probably survived a bit longer. she has actually had the upper hand against luke on more than one occasion.
Abeloth has made a joke out of Luke actually.

Her greatest limitation is the human body which she posseses or transfers her essense in to.

She needs a perfect body to complement her power.

ares834
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Abeloth has made a joke out of Luke actually.

When was this?

Rogue Gladiator
Nah. Among Caedus's first musings in Fury were something akin to "Luke had beaten him. And if it were not for Ben, Caedus would be dead." Later, he labels himself the most skilled duelist in the galaxy "except perhaps Luke, who was possibly the greater swordsman there ever was" (paraphrased). Caedus is not known for his modesty.

Arhael
Originally posted by Battlemaster
But how would he fare against the full might of Plagueis?
He would partially absorb it, the rest he would embrace and draw on the pain it caused and then the question would be: How would Plagueis fare against Jacen's might that would follow?

Lets not forget that Caedus had very deep understanding of the Force and mastered even such techniques that were not even known before. He could absorb energy like Corran Horn. Together with Luke they mastered how to draw on the Force to the limits of their potential. He was the only Jedi who could be among killiks without being influenced by them.
Jaina was his equal in terms of potential and one of the strongest lightsaber fighters. Plus, she received Mandalorian training, which turned her into lethal anti-Sith weapon. Yet, he was able to fight her singlehandedly.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Actually...Caedus has done both of these. Well, at least the first (in Invincible, he shatters the lightsaber-proof beskar armor, using shatterpoint, with a tap). He has also deflected turbolasers from a Chiss dropship. That are, like, supposed to rank kilotons at full power.

Plageuis, according to the back of the hardcover, is "the most powerful sith who had ever lived", presumably before Sidious. But Caedus is exempt from this quote. I haven't actually read my Plageuis copy yet, so maybe I should wait.

As you say Caedus used Shatterpoint to do that, not strength, striking it at the precise place he needed to to easily crack it.

And I'm not much of a physicist but I don't think having a higher yield or amount of power makes a laser heavier, not that much at least. Still if you know how much a kiloton of turbolaser fire weighs and how physically hard it is to deflect, you know more than I. Also I'll point oiut that Plagueis punched through armor while dying with 2 hearts shut down.

Plagueis still has a speed advantage.

Arhael
Faster than Skywalker bloodline?

Nephthys
Yes.

Arhael
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes. mad

Herbert Spencer
Why on earth would a particular cognomen imbue a person with superior speed than a person who doesn't share it?

Feat-wise, Plagueis enjoys an advantage over Caedus in speed, but since Caedus could keep up with Luke Skywalker, I doubt that it means anything. I expect Caedus to be on par with the Muun in terms of quickness.

Battlemaster
So, Plagueis could actually handle Caedus?

Darth Truculent
Arhael,

Anakin actually had far more potential than Jaina and Jacen. Kyp stated that Anakin was the future of the order. If the writers had killed off Jaina instead of Anakin, the lightsaber fight between Anakin and now Caedus probably would have been different. The two trained against each other and Anakin was getting better each time. It can be argued that Anakin's only equal was Ganner at Jedi Knight level. Both took numerous wounds in a single fight and performed Starkiller like feats until their deaths. During the final battle in the Yuuzhan Vong War, Jaina was outclassed by the Slayers where Jacen and Luke were not. Jacen took out Nom Anor and Luke killed Shimmra - both serious heavy weights in the war.

To the fight between Luke and Caedus, Luke had to worry about Ben. Can't remember what book, but Luke humiliated Caedus pinning him to the floor without even moving. Caedus was fearful that if Luke discovered the truth that he had killed Mara, Luke would unleash hell on him and there would be no way he could survive. He didn't expect Jaina to ambush him and was terrified that Allana would be killed in the 2nd Galactic Civil War. That's why he was killed.

Arhael
Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Arhael,

Anakin actually had far more potential than Jaina and Jacen. Kyp stated that Anakin was the future of the order. If the writers had killed off Jaina instead of Anakin, the lightsaber fight between Anakin and now Caedus probably would have been different. The two trained against each other and Anakin was getting better each time. It can be argued that Anakin's only equal was Ganner at Jedi Knight level. Both took numerous wounds in a single fight and performed Starkiller like feats until their deaths. During the final battle in the Yuuzhan Vong War, Jaina was outclassed by the Slayers where Jacen and Luke were not. Jacen took out Nom Anor and Luke killed Shimmra - both serious heavy weights in the war.

To the fight between Luke and Caedus, Luke had to worry about Ben. Can't remember what book, but Luke humiliated Caedus pinning him to the floor without even moving. Caedus was fearful that if Luke discovered the truth that he had killed Mara, Luke would unleash hell on him and there would be no way he could survive. He didn't expect Jaina to ambush him and was terrified that Allana would be killed in the 2nd Galactic Civil War. That's why he was killed.

I don't really think that Anakin had more potential, although he probably did. Kyp stated that not really because of his power but personality. He was very kind and completely selfless.

In first NJO book Jacen and Anakin dueled. Anakin lost and was very disappointed because he trained much harder but for his brother combat was never priority. Ganner was no equal to Anakin or Jacen, although had great potential but his arrogance was his greatest enemy. Both Anakin and especially Ganner performed amazing feats during state of oneness, yet, Jacen's oneness during fight with Onimi was much stronger and deeper.

During final battle with Yuzhan Vong Jaina fought against Slayers as good as Jacen. If you remember, Onimi got her attention and she followed him, then he managed to outwit her by poisoning.

Luke during fight with Caedus gave out best he could. He tried to kill Caedus instantly and ruthlessly. The very first strike Jacen survived only because of his amazing reflexes, his kidney or leaver though was partially burned. If not for circumstances Luke wouldn't get that many injuries but fight itself would be much much longer.

Yes, Luke did humiliate Caedus by pinning him down. A lot of credit for that goes not just to Luke's power but his talents of using it. Plus, he caught him off guard. In the middle of the fight Luke wouldn't be able to do that.

Yes, Caedus was terrified that Allana might get killed. But my opinion is that it is the main reason he was able to give such a long fight to Jaina, otherwise she would kill him much faster. When you need to protect someone, it gives you much stronger determination and reason to win.

As for Plagueis, he was much more powerful. As I said before Caedus was using only his own potential coming from within, while Plagueis resorted to Sith Sorcery, draining emotions and life energy from others and other ways that make him much more powerful, than Luke or any other Jedi. But that's where his advantages finish. Power is not deciding factor. Jacen's capabilities in combat, the way he utilizes the Force during combat and taking advantage of fighting ground are clearly above Plagueis.

On the other hand Jacen stands no chance, if he fights Plagueis near a dark side nexus place like Sith academy. Plagueis would imbue himself farther and utilize Sith Sorcery in a way that Jacen would not be capable to counter as Sith.

In the end I don't know who would win. Both have uniquenesses and immense potential. Imho I side with Caedus for his versatility but in terms of power Plagueis as proper Sith wins by far.

Nephthys
I found a comprehensive respect thread on Plagueis. After reading it I definately think he can take Jacen.

Battlemaster
Originally posted by Nephthys
I found a comprehensive respect thread on Plagueis. After reading it I definately think he can take Jacen.

Winner, Plagueis. smile

Darth Truculent
Venamis had him beaten and Jacen/Caedus was trained by Luke himself. Now I think being trained by the most powerful Jedi Master in SW mythos is something to take into account. He was stated by the only other swordsman who could actually give Luke somewhat of a fight.

That was only the first NJO book and remember that Jacen took a vacation during the YV War where Anakin and Jaina were serving actively in combat. Jaina was nowhere near the power or skill in swordsmanship as Anakin or Jacen. For some odd reason the writers of the SW EU decided to make female Jedi less powerful and skilled. Jaina was overrun in the final battle, she nearly was forced to tap out.

Also, Caedus was stated to be more powerful than his grandfather, therefore probably close to Palpatine. He was the only Force user close to Luke's level. Jacen/Caedus powers and skills were amped up by the LoTF series to Master abilities.

Also Arhael, are you saying that Starkiller is more powerful than Anakin and Ganner cause that's a pretty bold statement.

Arhael
Jaina was nowhere near the power or skill in swordsmanship as Anakin or Jacen.
On what basis did you make this conclusion? In sword skill she was on level with Jacen, if not above.

As Jacen she fought slayers equally good.
Having her legs sticked to the floor, while Tsavong La was attacking from behind, she still was able to defend and eventually killed him.

While training with Zekk to face Jacen, she was beating him up guite easily but Jag said that she will still loose because Sith never fight fair.
And that is true, it's not lightsaber skill that makes Jacen stand out.
While clashing with lightsabers, he would kick or strike into vital body points.
What makes Jacen stand out is his ability to utilize the Force during combat.
Mara in fight had upper hand and was driving him back. When they both were on the floor at some point she got chance to kill him, yet, he managed to hold her lightsaber hand with the Force long enough to reach for poison dart in his pocket.

Before first fight between twins Jaina crippled his arm with rifle. Yet, when she approached him, the first thing that happened is heavy object smashing her down. If not Luke empowering her, that's how fight would have ended. Then, when she chopped his arm, he badly electrocuted her.
In the final fight Jacen was able to fight Jaina so long not with saber skill but by constantly using Force against her.
Even Luke has never showed such degree of using Force in combat.

Nephthys
I've never been able to get a good idea about how strong Jaina is. I mean, as a Skywalker/Solo she should be pretty damn powerful, but then she gets wtfpwned over and over again by some random ****ing Mandalorian when not using a lightsaber. She only beats Jacen with mountains of PIS on her side. She seems to train alot but I've never seen her actually legit win a fight.

Its irritating how underdeveloped she is. ****ing Ben has a better track record.

Darth Truculent
It took her to the FoTJ series to be promoted to Master. Talk about frozen rank.

Arhael
Originally posted by Darth Truculent
It took her to the FoTJ series to be promoted to Master. Talk about frozen rank.
Rank of master is not measured only by power or skill. Very deciding factor is how wise that person is and what things that person did to be considered wise. Some Jedi even with great potential don't exercise heavy Force use and hardly dedicate any time to combat training, yet, they are masters.
In Jaina's case she constantly participated in wars and flying on starfighter instead of continuing studying Jedi teachings and solving problems that would show her as wise Jedi.
She was more like soldier with Jedi training but not other way around.
During Caedus time she received Mandolorian training. She was training to become perfect killer but are Jedi supposed to be like that?
Moreover, during wars her brother and many friends died. She was constantly under psychological stress. She was hot headed and fast to react. Would all that make good master out of her? Later she had to kill her own brother, which is even more stress. Being master means taking padawan but would person like that be suitable to teach anyone, when she still got so much mess in her head?
Time before FoTJ gave her a brake, when she could finally relax and achieve piece within herself to become master.

Darth Truculent
I was being sarcastic. Of course I know the regs on becoming a Master. But remember, Luke also fought multiple wars like Jaina and became a Master. Kyp fought numerous wars too and was also possessed by Exar Kun, but he too was promoted to Master. Psychological stress has absolutely nothing to do with it because a Jedi has to control their emotions. They can't flip out during combat or over something trivial. She had no time before the FoTJ series . . . 2nd Galactic Civil War and the Joiner War. Jacen took Ben as an apprentice and he had Master level abilities. Rebutal?

Arhael
Originally posted by Darth Truculent
I was being sarcastic. Of course I know the regs on becoming a Master. But remember, Luke also fought multiple wars like Jaina and became a Master. Kyp fought numerous wars too and was also possessed by Exar Kun, but he too was promoted to Master. Psychological stress has absolutely nothing to do with it because a Jedi has to control their emotions. They can't flip out during combat or over something trivial. She had no time before the FoTJ series . . . 2nd Galactic Civil War and the Joiner War. Jacen took Ben as an apprentice and he had Master level abilities. Rebutal?
Ye, she didn't have time. I thought between Invincible and exile there is 1-2 years gap but it's actually a few weeks.
In case of Luke is is self-proclamation, so really he could become master any time big grin. After exar Kun Kyp had 14 years before Yuuzhan Vong war to become Master, while Jaina from 16 was interlaced with non-stop war. Her fate was generally harsher and I think it's also age factor that makes it longer to become master.

Raptor22
To be completely honest I've never really been that impressed with Jacen overall. As far as knowing/learning mysterious, random force powers he is probably king. As far as overall power and top tier wins not so much. He houses Kyle Katarn, valin horn and some other chumps which is impressive but none of them are even close to top tier like- Yoda, mace, Luke, dooku, palpatine, bane, Vader, etc. He's clearly above jaina, but her power and skill is even more questionable than jacens. Would u put her up there with the top tiers? Then u have his altercations with Luke. When Luke first goes to him with serious intentions he flat out embarasses jacen. Luke just pops onto his ship talks trash, pins him down in his chair so he cant even move a finger, then flatens his chair making him smack his ass on the ground like a little kid and has to listen to luke from there. The whole time jacen is narrating how scared he is that Luke not only has this kind of power but can summon it so easy out of nowhere. Their next meeting is their battle in which Luke starts off shocked and furious about what jacen did to Ben. He proceeds to beat on jacen relentlessly while overcoming his shock, fighting off dark side emotions about what happend to Ben, trying to protect Ben thru the fight. Also most of, if not all the serious blows jacen delt Luke were due to his vines, tentacles, and other weapons he used on his ship which gave jacen a huge homefield advantage, and he still only lived because luke let him and left with ben. Then later when jacen and luke squared off in space luke completly dominated him, completly dismantled his stealth x with the force and the only thing that saved jacen again was he had his daughter so luke let him go again. Not really a stellar record overall if u ask me.

Raptor22
I don't think being trained by Luke gives him any advantage here at all. Plagues was the most powerful sith master of his time, trained in the traditions of the rule of two, with most of the knowledge and training of all the sith masters that have followed their line probably back to Bane. Also Plaguies trained palpatine, and palpy prob got at least 80-90% of knowledge from plagues having been his apprentice til around the end of phantom menace.

Also for all the many strange force powers jacen knows not many of them are battle oriented powers. His power to communicate with animals, or make himself small and undetectable in the force probably won't help him much. It's not like he's gonna be flow walking anyone to death or anything, and this fight isn't on his ship so he has no vines/tentacles, or vong organisms to control, jacens daughter isn't here so he can't take her hostage (plagues wouldn't care if he did), jacen doesnt control plagues son like ben so that wont help him, and he cant rely on family sympathy (maybe he can because plagues created Vader who is jacens grandfather so he is kind of like jacens great grandpa. so maybe but prob not). that's most of jacens best tactics right there and they won't work here.

Arhael
Originally posted by Raptor22
I don't think being trained by Luke gives him any advantage here at all. Plagues was the most powerful sith master of his time, trained in the traditions of the rule of two, with most of the knowledge and training of all the sith masters that have followed their line probably back to Bane. Also Plaguies trained palpatine, and palpy prob got at least 80-90% of knowledge from plagues having been his apprentice til around the end of phantom menace.

Also for all the many strange force powers jacen knows not many of them are battle oriented powers. His power to communicate with animals, or make himself small and undetectable in the force probably won't help him much. It's not like he's gonna be flow walking anyone to death or anything, and this fight isn't on his ship so he has no vines/tentacles, or vong organisms to control, jacens daughter isn't here so he can't take her hostage (plagues wouldn't care if he did), jacen doesnt control plagues son like ben so that wont help him, and he cant rely on family sympathy (maybe he can because plagues created Vader who is jacens grandfather so he is kind of like jacens great grandpa. so maybe but prob not). that's most of jacens best tactics right there and they won't work here.
Being trained by Luke doesn't give any advantage neither Plagues gets advantage for being trained by Sith from Rule of Two. It's all about life experience, how they learn, to what conclusions they come and what unique talents they discover within themselves. Who was Luke trained by? Doesn't matter, he achieved highest level of lightsaber skill and understanding of the Force regardless. Also, saying Plagueis was the most powerful Sith of his time hardly gives any weight as he was the only Sith master of his time.
Jacen still can embrace pain. He still knows shatterpoint and can give nasty kicks or punches into vital points. He can still catch his foe off-guard with Force blast or Force lightning. He can still take advantage of what ever other ground he fights with Plagueis. Even not considering any advantages Jacen still has immense potential inherited from Chosen One.
Come on, it's not like becoming invisible to a droid with outdated microprocessor. xD

Raptor22
Originally posted by Arhael
Being trained by Luke doesn't give any advantage neither Plagues gets advantage for being trained by Sith from Rule of Two. It's all about life experience, how they learn, to what conclusions they come and what unique talents they discover within themselves. Who was Luke trained by? Doesn't matter, he achieved highest level of lightsaber skill and understanding of the Force regardless. Also, saying Plagueis was the most powerful Sith of his time hardly gives any weight as he was the only Sith master of his time.
Jacen still can embrace pain. He still knows shatterpoint and can give nasty kicks or punches into vital points. He can still catch his foe off-guard with Force blast or Force lightning. He can still take advantage of what ever other ground he fights with Plagueis. Even not considering any advantages Jacen still has immense potential inherited from Chosen One.
Come on, it's not like becoming invisible to a droid with outdated microprocessor. xD I wasn't implying plagueis had any advantage due to his training. It was more in response to someone earlier in the thread saying jacen had an advantage because he was trained by Luke. My point was that neither had an advantage in training since they were both trained well, by top tier masters. Luke was trained by obi wan, Yoda, Palpatine, and others so he's had decent teachers.

Im not sure what advantages Jacen has. He might be able to take pain a little better but not by much and plagueis might not know shatterpoint. plagueis can still deliver nasty kicks and punches to vital spots, he can take advantage of the ground their fighting on and use force pushes and lightning too. jacens potential is nice but since he didn't reach his full potential before he died it doesn't really have much impact on this fight. And him being a descendant of the chosen one prob doesn't mean that much in this fight since plagueis created the chosen one.

UltimateAnomaly
If you read the Plagueis novel, he didn't create Anakin. He and Palpatine tried to create the whole embodiment of the force, pissed off the Midichlorians who then made Anakin in retaliation.

Also bare in mind that Plagueis has NO precognitive powers due to his Master infecting him with Maxi-chlorians, therefor he cannot predict things like Jacen most likely can.

Lord Lucien
Is that no-precog disease the reason they gave for why Palps could sneak up on him?

DARTH POWER
^ Not read the novel but if he's not got pre-cog that's pretty rubbish.

UltimateAnomaly
His master had found out about long-living midichlorians, which he called Maxi-chlorians. And when he died he infected Plaguies with them, which allowed Tenebrous to use Plags' farsight to see Palpatine killing him. However he infected so many that Plag couldn't use the pre-cog anymore. And thats why he didn't predict Palps killing him.

Nephthys
Maxi-chlorians is such a stupid word.

UltimateAnomaly
I know like, it's like Friend Chicken.

Battlemaster
laughing laughing laughing

Edit: So Plagueis accomplishes his combative-feats through honed-reflex, then?

Battlemaster
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ Not read the novel but if he's not got pre-cog that's pretty rubbish.


I'd say Caedus wins this then.

Raptor22
Originally posted by UltimateAnomaly
If you read the Plagueis novel, he didn't create Anakin. He and Palpatine tried to create the whole embodiment of the force, pissed off the Midichlorians who then made Anakin in retaliation.

Also bare in mind that Plagueis has NO precognitive powers due to his Master infecting him with Maxi-chlorians, therefor he cannot predict things like Jacen most likely can. I haven't read the novel but from what I've pieced together I thought it was because of plagueis and palpatines ritual where they basicaly challenged the force and bent it to their will tipping the balance to the dark side. And the force created anakin as a last ditch effort to bring balance back. So i saw it as while plagueis didnt create anakin directly, anakin was a by-product of their ritual and the power he amassed in the darkside. I could be wrong like I said I haven't read the novel yet (hard covers are expensive am I right) just my take on it from my research.

Ya no pre-cog is a definite disadvantage for plagueis. Shit forget about pre-cog, he didn't even have the common sense to know palpatine was getting him drunk for a reason.

UltimateAnomaly
Originally posted by Raptor22
I haven't read the novel but from what I've pieced together I thought it was because of plagueis and palpatines ritual where they basicaly challenged the force and bent it to their will tipping the balance to the dark side. And the force created anakin as a last ditch effort to bring balance back. So i saw it as while plagueis didnt create anakin directly, anakin was a by-product of their ritual and the power he amassed in the darkside.

Yupski, that's pretty much it. Man, The Force is a total badass. XD. Never mess with it, or it'll seriously screw you up. Not entierly sure how it helped balance out, considering Anakin and Palps went on a Jedi killing rampage, but I'm not going to question The Force.

Lack of pre-cog sucks for Plag, for sure. Not sure if his other force powers can make up for it or no. Especially in a fight situation.

Raptor22
This is one of the quotes that led to my thinking. I saw it in another thread, I believe it's right from the novel, if not please correct me.

"The shift had been the outcome of months of intense meditation, during which Plagueis and Sidious had sought to challenge the Force for sovereignty and suffuse the galaxy with the power of the dark side. Brazen and shameless, and at their own mortal peril, they had waged etheric war, anticipating that their own midi-chlorians, the Force's proxy army, might marshal to boil their blood or stop the beating of their hearts. Risen out of themselves, discorporate and as a single entity, they had brought the power of their will to bear, asserting their sovereignty over the Force. No counterforce had risen against them. In what amounted to a state of rapture they knew that the Force had yielded, as if some deity had been tipped from its throne. On the fulcrum they had fashioned, the light side had dipped and the dark side had ascended."

UltimateAnomaly
I don't have the book on me right now, but I believe that's the part where they turn the Force towards the dark side, so it clouds the minds of the Jedi. I'll make sure to look over it as soon as I can though. I could be wrong on that one, so don't hold it to me. XD.

Raptor22
Originally posted by UltimateAnomaly
I don't have the book on me right now, but I believe that's the part where they turn the Force towards the dark side, so it clouds the minds of the Jedi. I'll make sure to look over it as soon as I can though. I could be wrong on that one, so don't hold it to me. XD. Thanks

Zampanó
Are you kidding me? Who ok'd the "maxi-chlorians"???

its just so... fanfiction-y

Battlemaster

Herbert Spencer

truejedi
Originally posted by Raptor22
This is one of the quotes that led to my thinking. I saw it in another thread, I believe it's right from the novel, if not please correct me.

"The shift had been the outcome of months of intense meditation, during which Plagueis and Sidious had sought to challenge the Force for sovereignty and suffuse the galaxy with the power of the dark side. Brazen and shameless, and at their own mortal peril, they had waged etheric war, anticipating that their own midi-chlorians, the Force's proxy army, might marshal to boil their blood or stop the beating of their hearts. Risen out of themselves, discorporate and as a single entity, they had brought the power of their will to bear, asserting their sovereignty over the Force. No counterforce had risen against them. In what amounted to a state of rapture they knew that the Force had yielded, as if some deity had been tipped from its throne. On the fulcrum they had fashioned, the light side had dipped and the dark side had ascended."

Some deity had been tipped from its throne. The father perhaps? I love how this book comes out, and mere months later, Apocalypse wipes out, or contradicts at the very least, i guess whatever your opinion is, what happened to tip the force to the dark side.

Herbert Spencer
Originally posted by truejedi
Some deity had been tipped from its throne. The father perhaps? I love how this book comes out, and mere months later, Apocalypse wipes out, or contradicts at the very least, i guess whatever your opinion is, what happened to tip the force to the dark side.

wut?

truejedi
FOTJ just came to closure. It provides insight into what tipped the balance of the force. It mentions nothing about Plageious or Sidious.

Herbert Spencer
Originally posted by truejedi
FOTJ just came to closure. It provides insight into what tipped the balance of the force. It mentions nothing about Plageious or Sidious.

There is a passage in Apocalypse from an omniscient or otherwise extremely well educated source indicating that the shifting of the Force's balance in the PT was the product of someone other than Plagueis and/or Sidious?

truejedi
Yoda/Luke/Killiks. So I mean... Pretty good sources.Not omniscient, I'll give you that. But as reliable as Sidious, who admittedly didn't truly understand the process himself. Especially together? Yeah, probably.

Herbert Spencer

Arhael
Originally posted by truejedi
FOTJ just came to closure. It provides insight into what tipped the balance of the force. It mentions nothing about Plageious or Sidious.
I finished book myself. This book raised only more questions and interpretations about what is balance in the Force, when it was tipped, how and how many times, was it restored or not and whether Anakin really restored balance. I will share my thoughts in relevant topic.

truejedi
I think Luke is the one who realizes that Anakin's rejection of the throne of Mortis let the force slip out of balance and spin towards the dark side.


His information about Mortis, came from Yoda.

Herbert Spencer
{Mine is a digital copy on Notepad, excuse the lack of page numbers.}









^ From Thuruht, there is no contradiction. Abeloth is released after the balance is tipped.

Originally posted by truejedi
I think Luke is the one who realizes that Anakin's rejection of the throne of Mortis let the force slip out of balance and spin towards the dark side.


His information about Mortis, came from Yoda.



^ Again, no contradiction in sight.

ares834

truejedi
Thank you ares: And this:

Luke nodded. "Of course," he said. "But there isn't a lot to tell. In Yoda's story, Obi-Wan and Anakin Skywalker encountered the Father when he was dying. The Son and the Daughter were at odds because the Son wanted to take the Father's place. The Father told Anakin that he had been chosen to assume the Father's place-and keep the balance between the two siblings. When Anakin refused, matters came to a head. The Ones fought, all three were slain, and their world died with them."

The book insinuates that the death of the Ones was what tipped the balance of the force to the dark side.

Arhael
Originally posted by truejedi
I think Luke is the one who realizes that Anakin's rejection of the throne of Mortis let the force slip out of balance and spin towards the dark side.


His information about Mortis, came from Yoda.
Look at it this way.
The Ones were beings of the Force. They did not exist infinitively but appeared around 100k years ago(not a fact). They experienced emotions like normal human beings. They could die and they did.
They withdrew from influencing the galaxy inside monolith, which means father did not want to affect the galaxy in any way.
So. Are they really the true keepers of the balance in entire galaxy or it is just a father trying to live in piece with his kids? Are they really gods or just another example of powerful Force beings that could reshape the galaxy the way they wanted but galaxy would live better without someone as powerful as them? And, moreover, how could their death affect the whole galaxy, if they withdrew from it anyway? And what if son just happened to be kind like sister, would that ruin the galaxy?

Was it really Anakin's destiny to take the father's place or it is just a father trying to find someone to look after his kids? Is it really destiny of the Force or just an example of someone's egoism?
Son showed Anakin his future as Darth Vader. Maybe this is the real Anakin's destiny?

See how opened all this new information to interpretation?

Herbert Spencer
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There's no real contradiction, though. Plagueis & Sidious were active participants in the ritual; Yoda's information is second hand, Luke's is third hand. The Force's imbalance was established by Mace to have occurred prior to the films in TPM and AOTC, which chronologically precede the Father's death in the Mortis trilogy.

ares834
Originally posted by Arhael
Was it really Anakin's destiny to take the father's place or it is just a father trying to find someone to look after his kids? Is it really destiny of the Force or just an example of someone's egoism?

Until Apocalypse came out I always thought the Ones didn't actually "exist". Rather they were like the Vader illusion that Luke confronts in the dark side cave. So of Anakin "stayed behind" it wouldn't be that he literally took the Father's place and lived on Mortis but rather he would give up on his worldly desires (Padme).


Originally posted by Arhael
Son showed Anakin his future as Darth Vader. Maybe this is the real Anakin's destiny?

The Jedi Covenant also have a vision of Vader almost 4000 years before. Anyway, I've always thought it was a cool idea that Anakin didn't merely bring balance to the force by destroying the Sith but also the Old Jedi Order as they had grown stagnant and ineffective. This would then allow Luke's new superior Order grow.

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by Nephthys
I found a comprehensive respect thread on Plagueis. After reading it I definately think he can take Jacen.

You post in the OBD?

Nephthys
No, I lurk.

gideongarner01

Meatpants
Plagueis takes sabers, Force and all-out.

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.