Lord Vitiate vs Gauntlet

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Rogue Gladiator
(Hello, I'm new here. Long time SW fan.)



Ever since the Revan novel came out, there has been raging amongst the internet about the awe-inspiring capabilities of Lord Vitiate. Here is a gauntlet to test exactly how powerful he really is, in relation to the SW mythos.

Full rest. The battle takes place in the Senate Pod chamber.


1. Anakin (III)
2. Darth Tyrannus
3. Exar Kun
4. Darth Bane (Rule of Two novel)
5. Darth Caedus
6. Darth Sidious (III)
7. Darth Sidious (Dark Empire clone)
8. Luke Skywalker (New Jedi Order)
9. Luke Skywalker (Legacy of the Force)
10. Abeloth
11. Clears

Personally, I would say that Vitiate is defeated at six. Why? Because Sidious is still canonically the most powerful sith lord of all time. You could break suspension of disbelief and say that those sources were written before Vitiate was conceived, but that would not explain the Plageus quote on the back of the hardcover, which lists Plageuis as the "most powerful sith lord who ever lived". The obvious rationalization between this quotation and those attributing the same to Palpatine would be that Plageuis was the most powerful sith before Sidious. Meaning that Palpatine would be at one, and Plageuis at two, for the most powerful sith in the mythos.

Additionally, many of Vitiate's allegedly amazing feats are...overhyped. Nyriss admits that his enslave-hundreds-of-sith-at-once feat is an unverifiable legend. After all, if he enslaved and annihilated all life on the planet, which indeed did happen, how does anybody know of it? For all we know, he could have wiped the sith out from orbit, and then have performed the ritual. Additionally, he was disarmed by the Exile. Yes, he was taken by surprise, but Scourge notes that Meetra could have easily enough killed Vitiate, had she not instintually protected Revan instead. Of course, against I-can-destroy-fleets-with-teraton-level-shields-and-ravage-planets Wankatine, there is really no comparison. But this is merely IMHO.

axel_jovan
Anakin, if in teh ZoNe, can take him down. smokin'

Rogue Gladiator
Originally posted by axel_jovan
Anakin, if in teh ZoNe, can take him down. smokin'

But if Anakin were in teh ZoNe, he would be above Dooku, correct?

Lord Lucien
Yes. He's also likely above Kun. Unless he has his amulets.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Personally, I would say that Vitiate is defeated at six. Why? Because Sidious is still canonically the most powerful sith lord of all time. You could break suspension of disbelief and say that those sources were written before Vitiate was conceived, but that would not explain the Plageus quote on the back of the hardcover, which lists Plageuis as the "most powerful sith lord who ever lived". The obvious rationalization between this quotation and those attributing the same to Palpatine would be that Plageuis was the most powerful sith before Sidious. Meaning that Palpatine would be at one, and Plageuis at two, for the most powerful sith in the mythos.
You are playing with hyperboles. Their is no definite answer for the claim of the strongest Sith Lord any more and neither is your assertion valid.

Most powerful ever DOES NOT means most powerful up to a point. Common sense.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Additionally, many of Vitiate's allegedly amazing feats are...overhyped. Nyriss admits that his enslave-hundreds-of-sith-at-once feat is an unverifiable legend.
No, you need to read the novel. She made that statement earlier. It is only applicable to the story of Vitiate' rise to power. But do keep in mind that Vitiate did killed Lord Dramath and was recognized as the ruler of Nathema by Marka Ragnos himself.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
After all, if he enslaved and annihilated all life on the planet, which indeed did happen, how does anybody know of it?
Because some individuals investigated that planet afterwards. Meetra Surik also did so after the events of KoTOR II.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
For all we know, he could have wiped the sith out from orbit, and then have performed the ritual.
He destroyed all life on Nathema. End of story.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Additionally, he was disarmed by the Exile. Yes, he was taken by surprise, but Scourge notes that Meetra could have easily enough killed Vitiate, had she not instintually protected Revan instead.
You cannot consider this as an argument. Vitiate was preoccupied with Revan at that moment.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Of course, against I-can-destroy-fleets-with-teraton-level-shields-and-ravage-planets Wankatine, there is really no comparison. But this is merely IMHO.
Vitiate is immortal and capable of unleashing the full power of the dark side. He is among the TOP.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
Anakin, if in teh ZoNe, can take him down. smokin'
Not possible. Anakin will not get a chance to initiate a lightsaber duel. He is done with in this contest.

Rogue Gladiator
Presumably, you are referring to Anakin, if you are responding to me. Uh, BTW, my response was an attempt on sarcasm, on my part. Obviously, Super Saiyan Anakin would be above Dooku because...he looks cooler. Hence, his placement below Dooku implies that he is not "in teh zone". He would also be above not only Kun, but possibly Yoda, given that he handed Dooku his ass far faster than Yoda did.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You are playing with hyperboles. Their is no definite answer for the claim of the strongest Sith Lord any more and neither is your assertion valid.


No, really, it isn't. To say one of the most powerful simply defines the person as incredibly powerful. THE most powerful is quite too blunt of a statement here.



No, it isn't "common sense". Your statement assumes that the narrator is not only 3rd person omniscient, but that the PoV is beyond time, looking back on all of SW past, present and future. An assumption that has little basis, and, if we go by it, creates a clear contradiction between it and various sources attributing the same to Sidious. Going by my interpretation, there is no contradiction.



My god...

Yes, you are right. She made the statement in the middle of her story because Scourge interrupted and questioned its validity. It does not imply that the part of her story after the completely arbitrary point that she made her disclaimer is magically 100% fact. Had Scourge made his comment at the end of the story, she would have said the same thing. You might as well argue that a TV disclaimer that "this tale is a work of fiction" only applies to the title screen that came before it.

Her same reasoning for admitting that it is not verifiable; that there are no witnesses, is just as valid, if not moreso, in the latter portion of her tale.



I kept that in mind, and dismissed it because it was completely irrelevant. Nathema was stated to have been a rather unimportant planet anyway, and this "feat" is completely unquantifiable.




Yes, but how is the question. Nowhere can the "he dominated their minds through his own raw power!" statement ever be verified, because the only witnesses are dead. There is no possible way that Nyriss could have learned of this factually.



Of course. I stated this myself. But he well knew that there was more than one assassin out to get him, so a lack of battlefield awareness does not speak well about his combat experience.



Completely irrelevant. He is immortal to aging (and even then, this isn't absolute, probably, given that he "slowly" feeds off of a finite set of stolen Force energy), but unless if the battle lasts for decades, I don't see your point here.



WTF is this? "capable of unleashing the full power of the dark side"? rolling on floor laughing

Am I getting trolled here?

ares834
I'm liking this new guy.

Anyway, I'd say he stops at 6.

S_W_LeGenD

Rogue Gladiator
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes, you are. Their is no definite answer for the claim of the most powerful Sith Lord any more. The 'most powerful ever' label can be valid for only one individual and not for several. Since more then one individual have been labelled as such, therefore, my point is valid.


No, your point involves the dismissal of several OOU sources because they contradict one another. Mine contains no contradictions. No dismissal of canon is needed. The best theory fits with the facts. Next.



Ah. So when Kas'im was suggested to be the most skilled swordsman ever in PoD, this obviously means that he is better than Yoda and Skywalker. Got it.

And we should certainly sue AT&T for claiming in one of their commercials that their phones are their fastest ever. Or Jeep, for calling one of their products the most rewarded of its class in history. After all, we know that this claim equates to past, present and future!






And yet she states that Vitiate does not want his secret to be revealed. And that she discovered it herself. Translation: Vitiate told no-one. Nyriss discovered it herself, and then heard about Vitiate's life story from somewhere other than Vitiate himself.

Pg 131, Hardcover version, Star Wars: Revan

The Emperor erased Nathema from the history books and the astrogation charts to hide all evidence of his crimes.

...The journey is long, and we must be certain that the Emperor never finds out. Traveling to Nathema is punishable by death.

Obviously, Vitiate just openly shared Nathema's story with the Dark Council...yet made traveling to it punishable by death, including by members of the Council. If you actually read the book, you clearly didn't understand it.



...

Let's examine my statement again:



Now, either you are being brutally dishonest, or your grasp of the English language is horribly lacking. Let's presume that Vitiate did actually kill Dramath (likely, although I fail to see how Revan would know any more than Nyriss on this), and that he did get named ruler of Nathema by Ragnos (certain). It's still irrelevant. He killed a no-name sith and was made ruler of an explicitly stated unimportant planet. Palpatine killed three celebrated swordsmen of the Order in seconds, and was the first sith Emperor to rule over the entire galaxy. Random sith vs powerful Jedi, and later (partially) Yoda. Ruler of Nathema vs ruler of the galaxy.


Pg 155:

Remember, he was not the Emperor back then. He was merely Lord Vitiate, ruler of a single planet of no particular importance.

You're just digging your own grave here.


What, you think she sat down with Vitiate to drink some tea while he revealed his greatest secret? Like, the on that Nyriss stated Vitiate did not want anyone knowing?

Additionally, your argument is a strawman. It cannot be confirmed nor dismissed, unless if more information becomes known, at the moment. That was my point. If it cannot be confirmed, it cannot be used as evidence. Point.



OHMEGOD! He has demonstrated "plenty of mind dominating feats during KoTOR period"! I concede the debate. You win.



Sidious was dying in Empire's End. IIRC, he wasn't aware of Solo's presence, either (although I may be wrong on this). Vitiate had his lightsaber drawn.



Of course he does. But now you're backtracking from making a completely irrelevant statement just to juice up the guy's resume.



Oh my god! He unleashed the full power of the Force "against the defenseless droid"! And Revan waz teh heart o teh Force, and Obi Wan was a vessel of teh Force!

By the way, have you wondered where that quote likely got its inspiration from? Watch the confrontation between Palpatine and Yoda again. When Sidious first blasts Yoda at the beginning, listen carefully to what he is saying.



Somebody help me here. Either you are an idiotic douche, or you're trolling me, in which case you're still an idiotic douche.

Arhael
I wouldn't say that Vitiate's powers were over-hyped, if we approach it logically, it all makes sense.

He was born on Sith planet with strong darkside presence, it allowed him to develop much earlier. At the same time he was Force gifted with consuming life energy of others like Nihilus and mind influence, which is lethal mix of talents that gave him power beyond his potential.

The Stih Lords he called for ritual were heartbroken and scared making it much easier to bend their will. Palpatin was able to twist mind even of the Chosen one, so it is not something overly incredible.
Those Sith were actually helping him to perform ritual thinking that it was for their benefit.
For thousand years he lived on Dromund Kaas. The very planet was consumed by darkness that belonged to him, so it is another reason for him to be so much stronger.

Again he was able to mind dominate Revan and Malak because they were already too exposed to darkside.

I doubt that he would win Kun as he, also, was heavily imbued beyond his potential and on top of that could use lightsaber.
Caedus has versatility to defeat him.
I think he would win Sidious prior to Mace fight but after order 66 with exhilaration of victory Palpatine became much stronger. Luke is out of question, he was designed to fight overpowered foes.
Don't see him standing any chance without lightsaber against Abeloth.

Stealth Moose
Ragnos solos.

S_W_LeGenD

Rogue Gladiator
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What is the fact? Your opinion? I don't think so.


No, it's called Occam's Razor, combined with the fundamental principle that the best theory is the one that best fits with the facts. Really, I'm not making this idea up.



So when wikipedia lists Everest as the tallest land mountain in the world, it's obviously hyperbole. Because blatant statements as to somebody being the most powerful are obviously "hyperbole". And this "hyperbole" was used in the same manner by various different authors in various different sources.

Yet obviously, "unleashed the full power of the dark side" is completely literal.



No, none actually confirm this. But various, canon, some OOU sources confirm Sidious to be the "most powerful sith who ever lived". Fact. Canon.



Point being that the statement involving Kas'im was clearly not referring to, say, Jedi that lived a thousand years after him.



Oh, many Jeeps are indeed the most decorated in their class ever. Of course, using your definition of "ever", this would be incorrect, as it would mean "the most decorated jeep past, present and future". By the second definition (read: of the rest of the world), it would simply mean up until the PoV of the narrator. Which in this case is an advertiser with no knowledge of the future.



...that's my entire point. Vitiate did not tell Nyriss of his actions, and therefore the fact that she was on the Dark Council and told secrets from the Emperor is, once again, an irrelevant fact on your part.



Ah, so a single portion of the story being correct must mean that the entire story is. Because Achilles possibly did exist, that must have meant that he was dipped in a magical river in the underworld.



So then what exactly was the relevance to mentioning that Nyriss was given information by the Emperor that none others receive, being on the Dark Council? If that information does not include information on Nathema, which it does not, then you just blurted out an irrelevant point.



Nowhere do I openly dismiss it. You're the one who regarded it as fact. Next.



I was attempting to sarcastically convey my point, but clearly such means are ineffective with you. Let's examine your statement:


Also, Vitiate has demonstrated plenty of mind dominating feats during KoTOR period.

So all you state here is that he has demonstrated "plenty of mind dominating feats during KoTOR period". At no point do you explain what they are and how they are above Palpatine's.

So let me actually do your own work for you. Vitiate dominated the minds of pre KOTOR Revan and Malak without stirring from his chair. Impressive, probably the most impressive mind-control feat in the mythos. Although, IIRC, Palpatine almost succeeded in dominating Marek a similar way, had it not been for Kota. Yet nothing indicates that Vitiate could mind dominate Palpatine, who turned an entire planet into a barren, dark side infested planet, clouded the minds of ten thousand Jedi and contained such an influence on the minds of the imperial fleet, the fleet at Endor collapsed and went crazy after he died.



Sure I can. Sidious was dying as of Empire's End.

Additionally, Vitiate also launched lightning bolts at Revan, who batted one back at him, and it hit him in the chest. Apparently, he didn't have the reflexes to dodge his own attack.



Feel free to elaborate on how exactly it "reflects on Vitiate's power in the grand picture". Like, you know, how powerful it will make him compared to Palpatine. Because Scourge also became immortal at the end of the novel; does this make him stronger than Palpatine?



My god, once again, your ability to read into subtle hints is hilariously bad. Sidious says to Yoda:

Your arrogance blinds you Master Yoda. Now you will experience the full power of the dark side.

So Sidious can do the obviously very literal, and very quantifiable "full power of the dark side" power.



rolling on floor laughing

Herbert Spencer
I hate to be the Larry David and curb your enthusiasm, but your opponent is deeply, irretrievably rooted in his belief that Nyriss's account of Vitiate's origin myth is absolutely unassailable and completely accurate. Against such conviction, logic cannot prevail.

Though I commend you for your well reasoned arguments and persistence.

Herbert Spencer
**With a caveat to that, I have to take issue with your faith in the quote from the Darth Plagueis back cover. I would caution you against relying overly on back covers and publisher's summaries, which are surprisingly dubious sources of information and aren't exactly part of the source's content.

Nephthys
I agree, commendable job new guy.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
No, you are being exposed;

A tremor rippled through the air as the Emperor unleashed the full power of the Force against the defenseless droid. (Source: SWTOR - Revan)

A-are you actually suggesting that we take this quote literally? That Vitiate is concentrating the Full Power, i.e. the entire might, of the Force aganst a freaking droid?

God god man! Thats crazy even for you!

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
I hate to be the Larry David and curb your enthusiasm, but your opponent is deeply, irretrievably rooted in his belief that Nyriss's account of Vitiate's origin myth is absolutely unassailable and completely accurate. Against such conviction, logic cannot prevail.
My point is that Nyriss is currently the best source we have for background account of Vitiate. Whether it is 100% true or not is another topic. However, parts of her story have been supported by other sources; investigation of Nathema by other characters and their findings.

Therefore, it is not wise to outright dismiss the account of Nyriss. It is logical fallacy unless a canonical source comes out and overrules Nyriss' account. We have to work with what we have got.

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
Though I commend you for your well reasoned arguments and persistence.
Yeah! Very well reasoned, indeed. Most of his comments are based on absolute dismissal of Nyriss' narrations. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Originally posted by Nephthys
I agree, commendable job new guy.
His arguments appeal to only those who are PT/OT and later era fanboys. wink

Originally posted by Nephthys
A-are you actually suggesting that we take this quote literally? That Vitiate is concentrating the Full Power, i.e. the entire might, of the Force aganst a freaking droid?

God god man! Thats crazy even for you!
The intended message of this statement is that Vitiate is immensely powerful in the Force. Just take this statement in this sense.

Nephthys
Theres a reason why we don't treat hyperbole as solid proof or any kind of proof at all really, because its very hard to gauge in scale. What does 'unleashing the full power of the Force' actually mean? Nothing really. Its just a fanciful way of saying that the attack was 'powerful.' Great.

In other words, that you champion Vitiates hyperbole while dismissing Sidious being the Most Powerful Ever for being hyperbole is laughably two-faced of you.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
No, it's called Occam's Razor, combined with the fundamental principle that the best theory is the one that best fits with the facts. Really, I'm not making this idea up.
Best theory? You are taking a hyperbolic statement very seriously. Star Wars and LOGIC don't complement each other very often. It is science fiction. Take it as such.

Now what has plagueis done that puts him above Vitiate? Any amazing combat feats?

Just watch the ownage Vitiate extends to 4 powerful Jedi simultaneously;

voh2VOb-B0w

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
So when wikipedia lists Everest as the tallest land mountain in the world, it's obviously hyperbole. Because blatant statements as to somebody being the most powerful are obviously "hyperbole". And this "hyperbole" was used in the same manner by various different authors in various different sources.
Genius, Everest is CONFIRMED as tallest mountain in the world. This is the difference. Their is no hyperbole in this statement.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Yet obviously, "unleashed the full power of the dark side" is completely literal.
It gives you some 'reality check' about Vitiate' command of the Force.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
No, none actually confirm this. But various, canon, some OOU sources confirm Sidious to be the "most powerful sith who ever lived". Fact. Canon.
Listen genius, all of those sources are OLD. Plagueis novel is relatively new and he is claimed to be as such as well - hmm! I get the picture. So which source we should trust?

Why do you think that their is no OFFICIAL ranking of Jedi and Sith on the OFFICIAL Star Wars website?

In SW-TCE; Yoda is still stated to be the strongest Jedi even when updated information of Luke is in it (up to LOTF period, I believe). Should we all accept that Yoda > Luke?

Their was a time, when Sidious got the label of the strongest Sith Lord ever. However, now more are getting similar labels - this is not even funny.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Point being that the statement involving Kas'im was clearly not referring to, say, Jedi that lived a thousand years after him.
Then choice of words are wrong or hyperbolic, as I am pointing out.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Oh, many Jeeps are indeed the most decorated in their class ever. Of course, using your definition of "ever", this would be incorrect, as it would mean "the most decorated jeep past, present and future". By the second definition (read: of the rest of the world), it would simply mean up until the PoV of the narrator. Which in this case is an advertiser with no knowledge of the future.
Yes, POV of the narrator is the thing here. POV can differ from person to person. While POV of narrator has merit; we have to focus on the BIG PICTURE by ourselves.

Do you believe that when authors are writing novels, they take a good look at other materials? They don't usually. This is why we have contradictions in Star Wars mythos.

It should be made mandatory that if an author is writing a Star Wars novel, he or she should check all relevant materials properly. Unfortunately, this does not happens usually.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
...that's my entire point. Vitiate did not tell Nyriss of his actions, and therefore the fact that she was on the Dark Council and told secrets from the Emperor is, once again, an irrelevant fact on your part.
But Nyriss investigated Nathema. She can't dig out some information on her own? This is where you are wrong.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Ah, so a single portion of the story being correct must mean that the entire story is. Because Achilles possibly did exist, that must have meant that he was dipped in a magical river in the underworld.
Not single but several parts of the account given by Nyriss have been validated by other sources.

For example:

- Marka Ragnos granted the title of Lord Vitiate to Tenebrae.
- Tenebrae became the ruler of Nathema.
- Revan' findings confirm that Vitiate killed Lord Dramath during his rise to power.
- Meetra Surik' investigation confirms that Tenebrae did invite many Sith Lords to Nathema.

And you know the rest.

So if several parts of the account are being validated, then what is the issue here? Yes, not every bit of the account is confirmed but nonetheless, we have some information from Nyriss to consider (as she got that information from somewhere). It is logical fallacy to outright reject/dismiss her account.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
So then what exactly was the relevance to mentioning that Nyriss was given information by the Emperor that none others receive, being on the Dark Council? If that information does not include information on Nathema, which it does not, then you just blurted out an irrelevant point.
We don't know exactly what information Vitiate shared with Dark Council members. However, Nyriss investigated his past on her own. Being a member of the Dark Council, she would have access to sources that other individuals wouldn't unless they are members of the Dark Council too. Get the memo?

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Nowhere do I openly dismiss it. You're the one who regarded it as fact. Next.
This;

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
I kept that in mind, and dismissed it because it was completely irrelevant. Nathema was stated to have been a rather unimportant planet anyway, and this "feat" is completely unquantifiable.

You are clearly dismissing supportive material of Nyriss account - even if it only confirms a part of it.

And you have also dismissed the 'entire account' as unverified legend;

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Yes, you are right. She made the statement in the middle of her story because Scourge interrupted and questioned its validity. It does not imply that the part of her story after the completely arbitrary point that she made her disclaimer is magically 100% fact. Had Scourge made his comment at the end of the story, she would have said the same thing. You might as well argue that a TV disclaimer that "this tale is a work of fiction" only applies to the title screen that came before it.

Her same reasoning for admitting that it is not verifiable; that there are no witnesses, is just as valid, if not moreso, in the latter portion of her tale.

This is what I find troublesome. Parts of her account have been verified through other sources. Their is equal likelihood that the remaining part of her account is also true. Nyriss is not sure but she shares what she knows. (Us) readers are not in the position to dismiss her account outright, when we can notice that parts of her account have been verified and we don't have any other source that contradicts or overrules Nyriss' findings as a whole. Get the point?

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
I was attempting to sarcastically convey my point, but clearly such means are ineffective with you. Let's examine your statement:


Also, Vitiate has demonstrated plenty of mind dominating feats during KoTOR period.

So all you state here is that he has demonstrated "plenty of mind dominating feats during KoTOR period". At no point do you explain what they are and how they are above Palpatine's.
I have my share of lengthy debates on this subject.

Sidious has never demonstrated the capability to turn a powerful opponent in to his mental slave during combat situation. Period.

In contrast, Vitiate has.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
So let me actually do your own work for you. Vitiate dominated the minds of pre KOTOR Revan and Malak without stirring from his chair. Impressive, probably the most impressive mind-control feat in the mythos. Although, IIRC, Palpatine almost succeeded in dominating Marek a similar way, had it not been for Kota.
No, Sidious did not mind dominate Marek.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Yet nothing indicates that Vitiate could mind dominate Palpatine, who turned an entire planet into a barren, dark side infested planet, clouded the minds of ten thousand Jedi and contained such an influence on the minds of the imperial fleet, the fleet at Endor collapsed and went crazy after he died.
Sidious certainly has great command of mind tricks. On sheer scale, he may trump all others. However, his mind dominating capabilities have been mostly effective against weak individuals and not so on strong individuals.

Here is another evidence of Vitiate' mind domination:

0wXo9UR48l8

Warren Sedoru is one of the 4 Jedi and that Vitiate overwhelmed with his powers (first video provided above). Vitiate mind dominated all of them in the process as well.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Sure I can. Sidious was dying as of Empire's End.
Sidious was not dying. His cloned body was decaying and he was still strong enough to fight. Their is difference. And even in weakened state, getting owned by Han Solo does not bodes well for the supposedly all-powerful Sith. Once again! Don't use surprise factor as an argument.

If this is the case then you should know that Vitiate can create illusions of combatants with the Force. He can fool his opponents by doing so and take advantage. Get the point?

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Additionally, Vitiate also launched lightning bolts at Revan, who batted one back at him, and it hit him in the chest. Apparently, he didn't have the reflexes to dodge his own attack.
Sidious got kicked by Mace Windu during his duel and lost his balance. Very sad for the supposedly lightning fast Sith who cannot even avoid a kick. Don't give lame arguments.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Feel free to elaborate on how exactly it "reflects on Vitiate's power in the grand picture". Like, you know, how powerful it will make him compared to Palpatine. Because Scourge also became immortal at the end of the novel; does this make him stronger than Palpatine?
Vitiate made Scourge immortal. Also, Vitiate will not die even when his physical body is destroyed unless his essense itself is contained.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
My god, once again, your ability to read into subtle hints is hilariously bad. Sidious says to Yoda:

Your arrogance blinds you Master Yoda. Now you will experience the full power of the dark side.

So Sidious can do the obviously very literal, and very quantifiable "full power of the dark side" power.



rolling on floor laughing
Genius, that is Sidious' personal opinion.

In contrast, similar assertion for Vitiate is from author' POV, which has more merit.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Nephthys
Theres a reason why we don't treat hyperbole as solid proof or any kind of proof at all really, because its very hard to gauge in scale. What does 'unleashing the full power of the Force' actually mean? Nothing really. Its just a fanciful way of saying that the attack was 'powerful.' Great.

In other words, that you champion Vitiates hyperbole while dismissing Sidious being the Most Powerful Ever for being hyperbole is laughably two-faced of you.
No, I don't champion any hyperbole. I give these examples, when others resort to using hyperboles regarding Sidious and now even Plagueis to support their arguments. Your reasoning should extend to Rogue Gladiator too.

Rogue Gladiator
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Best theory? You are taking a hyperbolic statement very seriously. Star Wars and LOGIC don't complement each other very often. It is science fiction. Take it as such.

If such is fact, please stop your "debating" right now. After all, a universe in which logic cannot be taken into account clearly cannot be logically analyzed. Good day to you.



I have not read the book yet. He was stated to be more powerful than any sith. Now it has been pointed out that such a statement cannot be taken as completely irrefutable fact, but it's still a canon statement. But wait, he cannot unleash the full power of the dark side against a defenseless droid!



If I had the privledge, I could post a video of Palpatien owning three "powerful Jedi" within seconds. After all, we know that "powerful Jedi" is such a quantifiable turn. I can show you a video of Jango Fett owning a "powerful Jedi" in AotC with a few shots as well.



So if you had never heard of Everest, and a reliable, intelligent person told you that it was "the tallest mountain in the world", your obvious response would be "ah, he's just exaggerating. Mount Rushmore is so much taller."



...

...

Wait, what the fvk are you saying?




So I suppose that Darth Vader never killed Obi-Wan, because A New Hope is just so old.



Hey, there is no official ranking of the shortest Jedi on the Council in RotS either; so Yoda cannot be stated as such. Additionally, in an interview on TFU.net, the answer to the question of the most powerful sith was "Palpatine at his peak". Next.



Which again brings up the question of whether "strongest" means "strongest in context" or "STRONGEST EVAR!!!! PAST AND FUTURE!" Funny thing is, your example simply lends credence to the interpretation that such statements are contextual, an interpretation that does not involve throwing away sources because they are "old".



The honest approach to this would be to rationalize the sources, rather than dismissing them as "old".



Or, the word "EVER" perhaps has a different meaning than "PAST PRESENT AND FUTURE!!!!". Really, who in the galaxy uses this definition of the word?



Ah, so you are breaking Suspension of Disbelief here. Tell me, do you think that the author fully considered the meaning of "full power of the dark side", or was he just coming up with (or copying) a metaphor from his arse? Does this really mean that Vitiate has the ability to summon the FULL POWER of the dark side (read: enough to make the Death Star "insignificant"wink, but only ever uses it once, against "the defenseless droid"?

Really, tell me now.



Of course she did. She even said it herself. My point being that your "she was on the Dark Council and had access to secrets!" point was completely irrelevant (again).



The same thing can be applied to Achille's tale as well. After all, much archaeological evidence suggests that Troy really did exist. By your logic, it means that Apollo really did magically protect Hector's body from decay as he was dragged around by Achilles (who looked like Brad Pitt).



No, the burden of proof lies on actually substantiating the claim. Could it be true? Yes, it could. But we don't know for sure, and to do what you are doing; to claim that the legend is fact, is...um, incorrect.



That's not what you originally said. Again, you are backtracking. I don't understand what you are attempting to "prove" that Nyriss investigated Nathema herself when she quite obviously did. She stated it herself.



No, I misunderstood the purpose of your statement. I thought that you were trying to provide feats in Vitiate's name. But now, I realize that you are simply making completely irrelevant pieces of "information" to perpetuate the fallacy that a part of a story being true means that all of it is. Did you know that professional liars do exactly that; mix strands of truth into their lies? You would be a horrible interrogator.



There is a likelihood that it is true, if not only for the (breaking SoD) common cliche that all legends in a fictional universe are true. But it still cannot be proven.



...



I already said; in sheer power, Vitiate is probably the most impressive telepath in the mythos. But unless if you can prove that such a technique would work on Palpatine, or Luke Skywalker, it's pretty irrelevant.



Against pre KoTOR Revan and Malak, yes. But a redeemed Revan resisted it. And even Revan and Malak, although corrupted by the dark side, twisted his own orders into their own ends, and managed to purge his involvement from their memory. Ie, in the long run, they partially broke free of it, even if they were corrupted.



None of them have demonstrated anything putting them in the same tier as Palpatine.

Really, one would question why Vitiate does not simply mind control the entire Dark Council. He obviously does not, given that a large portion of it was secretly plotting against him.

Rogue Gladiator
(cont)


Really, nothing that you have said gives Vitiate the victory over RotS Sidious. Yes, he has powerful mind domination feats. No, this is not likely to work against Palpatine. No, he has never shown the prowess with a lightsaber to defeat three powerful Jedi in seconds, nor to match Yoda in a duel.

Against DE Palpatine, even Nyriss's legend, taken as complete fact, would not be enough to give him a victory. Palpatine could destroy fleets of NR ships capable of withstanding insane amounts of firepower, and render planets uninhabitable.

And against Luke... roll eyes (sarcastic)

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
If such is fact, please stop your "debating" right now. After all, a universe in which logic cannot be taken into account clearly cannot be logically analyzed. Good day to you.
The debate will continue until you prove your point. Just relying on a single hyperbolic statement is not enough.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
I have not read the book yet. He was stated to be more powerful than any sith. Now it has been pointed out that such a statement cannot be taken as completely irrefutable fact, but it's still a canon statement. But wait, he cannot unleash the full power of the dark side against a defenseless droid!
Opinion of a character about himself is also canon, if it is mentioned in a canonical material. Does this makes any difference? It is important to focus on the context.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
If I had the privledge, I could post a video of Palpatien owning three "powerful Jedi" within seconds. After all, we know that "powerful Jedi" is such a quantifiable turn.
He accomplished that with a lightsaber.

I am talking about Force based domination. And among those 4 Jedi downed, one is a Champion of the Light like Yoda and Revan.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
I can show you a video of Jango Fett owning a "powerful Jedi" in AotC with a few shots as well.
That Jedi was powerful? roll eyes (sarcastic)

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
So if you had never heard of Everest, and a reliable, intelligent person told you that it was "the tallest mountain in the world", your obvious response would be "ah, he's just exaggerating. Mount Rushmore is so much taller."
No. I would focus on the established fact.

Don't try to judge me. It is you who needs to be corrected here.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator

...

...

Wait, what the fvk are you saying?
Clearly you are not intelligent enough to understand even simple english.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
So I suppose that Darth Vader never killed Obi-Wan, because A New Hope is just so old.
This is illogical example. I am not talking about validity of events. I am talking about validity of statements. The distinction is very clear.

Also, new information tends to override old information. Simple.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Hey, there is no official ranking of the shortest Jedi on the Council in RotS either; so Yoda cannot be stated as such. Additionally, in an interview on TFU.net, the answer to the question of the most powerful sith was "Palpatine at his peak". Next.
I will not be surprised, if the response would be "Yoda at his peak" in case of similar question regarding Jedi, genius.

Point is that these topics are open to debate.

Also, how old is this interview?

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Which again brings up the question of whether "strongest" means "strongest in context" or "STRONGEST EVAR!!!! PAST AND FUTURE!" Funny thing is, your example simply lends credence to the interpretation that such statements are contextual, an interpretation that does not involve throwing away sources because they are "old".
You completely missed the point. Why Yoda was stated to be the greatest practitioner of the Light when Luke Skywalker surpassed him? Answer this please.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
The honest approach to this would be to rationalize the sources, rather than dismissing them as "old".
Yes. Feats wise, Sidious > Plagueis. So he is more suitable candidate for the infamous title OR the latter?

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Or, the word "EVER" perhaps has a different meaning than "PAST PRESENT AND FUTURE!!!!". Really, who in the galaxy uses this definition of the word?
No, it does not. Ever is for 'any time'.

In contrast, 'Until now' is more suitable choice of phrase. And also the CORRECT one.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Ah, so you are breaking Suspension of Disbelief here. Tell me, do you think that the author fully considered the meaning of "full power of the dark side", or was he just coming up with (or copying) a metaphor from his arse? Does this really mean that Vitiate has the ability to summon the FULL POWER of the dark side (read: enough to make the Death Star "insignificant"wink, but only ever uses it once, against "the defenseless droid"?

Really, tell me now.
You should consult Drew for this question. The intended message is that Vitiate had enormous command of the Force. This is how I perceive this statement.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Of course she did. She even said it herself. My point being that your "she was on the Dark Council and had access to secrets!" point was completely irrelevant (again).
So what is the relevant point, genius?

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
The same thing can be applied to Achille's tale as well. After all, much archaeological evidence suggests that Troy really did exist. By your logic, it means that Apollo really did magically protect Hector's body from decay as he was dragged around by Achilles (who looked like Brad Pitt).
Trying to play smart with me here? Now relate the example of background account of Vitiate to this example and then explain your point.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
No, the burden of proof lies on actually substantiating the claim. Could it be true? Yes, it could. But we don't know for sure
Yes. This my point whole of the time. Your outright dismissal of the legend is the issue that I pointed out. And now I see you backtracking from your original stance.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
and to do what you are doing; to claim that the legend is fact, is...um, incorrect.
No, I did not claimed that the whole legend is proven. My point is that some parts of the whole legend have been verified, which lends credence to the information gathered by Nyriss. And it is possible that the non-verified parts are also true, given that not a single point of Nyriss has been proven wrong till now.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
I am not saying that the whole Legend
That's not what you originally said. Again, you are backtracking. I don't understand what you are attempting to "prove" that Nyriss investigated Nathema herself when she quite obviously did. She stated it herself.
I am not backtracking, genius. You are backtracking from your original stance; you dismissed the validity of the entire legend in the first place. And when I pointed out that parts of the legend have already been verified, you have dismissed them too by declaring them as 'irrelevant' and you are trying hard to diverge from the topic by giving silly examples.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
No, I misunderstood the purpose of your statement. I thought that you were trying to provide feats in Vitiate's name. But now, I realize that you are simply making completely irrelevant pieces of "information" to perpetuate the fallacy that a part of a story being true means that all of it is. Did you know that professional liars do exactly that; mix strands of truth into their lies? You would be a horrible interrogator.
I am posting relevant materials, dumb.

PARTS of the legend have already been verified through other sources. Revan' account is just one of them. These verifications lend credence to the account by Nyriss. It may not be perfect, but their is no dismissal from any other canonical source either till now. We should work with what we have got. Get the memo?

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
There is a likelihood that it is true, if not only for the (breaking SoD) common cliche that all legends in a fictional universe are true. But it still cannot be proven.
Doesn't matters. We should work with what we have got.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
I already said; in sheer power, Vitiate is probably the most impressive telepath in the mythos. But unless if you can prove that such a technique would work on Palpatine, or Luke Skywalker, it's pretty irrelevant.
If it can work on 4 powerful Jedi simultaneously (one of them arguably being on Yoda level), it can also work on single powerful individual.

Even Revan was not immune to his power. And he is also a Champion of the Light like Yoda.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Against pre KoTOR Revan and Malak, yes. But a redeemed Revan resisted it.
He did not resisted it. He STOPPED Vitiate from continuing his assault.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
None of them have demonstrated anything putting them in the same tier as Palpatine.
Vitiate has some feats and well-developed abilities of his own.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Really, one would question why Vitiate does not simply mind control the entire Dark Council. He obviously does not, given that a large portion of it was secretly plotting against him.
It is his choice. Dark Council members are his handpicked advisors. He will not want to turn them in to mindless zombies.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Really, nothing that you have said gives Vitiate the victory over RotS Sidious. Yes, he has powerful mind domination feats. No, this is not likely to work against Palpatine.
And can you prove your assertion? Their is no guarantee that Palpatine would be able to successfully resist Vitiate' telepathic assault.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
No, he has never shown the prowess with a lightsaber to defeat three powerful Jedi in seconds, nor to match Yoda in a duel.
He did not needed it. Such was the level of his power.

Revan is also a very powerful Force-user. And he failed to get close enough to Vitiate to stab him with his lightsaber. This should be sufficient evidence.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Against DE Palpatine, even Nyriss's legend, taken as complete fact, would not be enough to give him a victory. Palpatine could destroy fleets of NR ships capable of withstanding insane amounts of firepower, and render planets uninhabitable.
Palpatine will kill himself in the process too.

Also, Vitiate can destroy the clone body of Palpatine.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
And against Luke... roll eyes (sarcastic)
In your opinion only.

Vitiate can handle Luke with the Force. He destroyed 9 Dark Council members by himself (confirmed by Scourge).

Herbert Spencer
It was the Force.Net, which isn't a canonical source.

Arhael
Seriously?

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Arhael
Seriously?
Yes, you think that Luke is untouchable?

I will not be surprised if DE Sidious can kill Luke too.

Lot of hype surrounds Luke these days. He is very powerful but not invincible. His duel with Caedus is sufficient evidence.

Arhael
Yes, you think that Luke is untouchable?
No I don't think that he is untouchable. But what I know is that Luke displayed on multiple accounts that he can counter stronger Force manipulations with less effort. You said that he can handle Luke with the Force. But I say that you don't need to have equal power to counter someone's Force attack. And Luke himself proved it on multiple accounts.


That's how it should be. After reading all books with him I am not surprised about it. big grin

Caedus himself is no ordinary foe. But there is much more evidence that he is not invincible and that is what makes the story interesting.

Rogue Gladiator
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The debate will continue until you prove your point. Just relying on a single hyperbolic statement is not enough.

This response has jack shit to do with my post, which was a response to your statement that logic does not apply to Star Wars. Yet you still attempt to debate logically. It does not take an intelligent person, even, to understand the grand stupidity in this.



That's my entire point. Jesus, you are a ****ing dumbass.



"one is a Champion of Light like Yoda and Revan".

(sigh). Do I need to explain how this vague, semantic-obsessed and irrelevant statement is stupid?



Those Jedi of yours were powerful? roll eyes (sarcastic)



Good job, disciple of circular logic. And amazing comeback.



What? That it puts "reality" into Vitiate's powers? What kind of vague, semantical, flowery bullshit is that supposed to mean? How powerful does unleashing the "full power of the dark side against the defenseless droid" make him? Qui Gon? RotS Kenobi? Dooku? Palpatine? The Entire Dark Side?

How is the quote quantifiable in the slightest?



Illogical? By your own decree, logic does not apply in Star Wars. Please, stop contradicting yourself.

And events in 3rd person limited (ie, the Revan novel) are statements of events that occured from a character's PoV. There's the same thing.





Of course, you do have a canonical statement substantiating your claim. I just know that you wouldn't pull shit out of your arse, right?



I will not be surprised, if you not being surprised at a hypothetical occurence is irrelevant.



No, really?



Why does it matter? (BTW, Herbert, thank you, but I am fairly certain that TFU.net asked somebody with authority in Lucasfilms. I will try to find the source.)



He was the greatest practitioner of light in his time. This isn't that hard to decipher; only if we use your ridiculous interpretation of the words "history" and "ever".



Of course he is more suitable for the title. That's my point. Plagueis is the most powerful sith of all time until Sidious. This interpretation fits together the various statements without any contradictions. Your "interpretation" involves dismissing these sources as "hyperbole". Basic principle, again: the best theory fits with the facts. End.



So again, feel free to explain why historians call the Mongolian Empire "the largest continuous land Empire in history (or ever)". Are they wrong? Should they say "in the past"? Or "until now" to satisfy your obsession with semantics?



No fvking shit!! Guess what? "enormous command of the Force" =/= beating Palpatine. You used the quote as evidence for calling him "TOPS" and that he could clear the gauntlet. How does enormous command of the Force equate to more enormous command of the Force than Palpatine, or even Dooku? Agen Kolar and Kit Fisto were among the most celebrated swordsmen in the order; can they outduel Palpatine? May-oh, wait.



The relevant point is that your rebuttal stated a completely irrelevant fact. That Nyriss was on the Dark Council and privvy to secrets had no contribution to her knowledge of the Emperor's past; she found it herself, and would have been executed had she been caught.



What, you seriously fail to understand such a simple analogy? Your logic is this:

a) Nyriss told a story she admitted was unverifiable.
b) Some of Nyriss's story was confirmed to be true.
c) Therefore, Nyriss's story is true.

Which can be applied in similar ways to Achilles:

a) Homer told a story about Achilles and the Battle of Troy.
b) There is evidence that Troy and Achilles really did exist.
c) Therefore, the Illiad is pure truth!.

a) The internet makes numerous claims.
b) Some of these claims are true.
c) The internet is pure truth.



I don't outright dismiss the legend. I have admitted that it could very well be true multiple times in this debate, but your reading skills are extremely selective.



Proven wrong? It has to be proven wrong? When there is nothing to prove it right, it is unsubstantiated.



I already explained my dismissal of them, dumbass. To borrow an analogy I read from this board, the fact that babies exist does not lend credence to the theory that storks delivered them.



We should work with what we have got? Even if it is unverified legend? Even when there is a host of (pretty impressive) feats in Vitiate's name that are verifiable?



Crap logic. Being the only evidence does not magically give something validity.



More crap logic. Because Sidious can fry 50 (relatively) weak clonetroopers, it must be able to work on a single powerful individual. After all, no need to quantify how powerful "powerful" is and how it relates to the single powerful individual. Because Palpatine can saber-kill 3 powerful jedi in seconds, he can obviously do it to a single powerful sith. It's not like as if "powerful" is relative or anything.



You can't be serious with using "champion of light" as an argument, can you?



Yes, and he also stated before the fight his confidence of being able to resist Vitiate.



Ah. "some feats and well-developed abilities" is obviously enough to defeat Palpatine.



Mindless? Revan didn't lose his tactical genius when he was enslaved did he? I remember him nearly conquering the Republic. Hardly seems mindless to me.

Arhael
Revan champion of light? YOUMAD? he was using darkside powers. Weren't you making a big argument about him achieving equilibrium between light and dark???

Rogue Gladiator
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And can you prove your assertion? Their is no guarantee that Palpatine would be able to successfully resist Vitiate' telepathic assault.


You would be the one who would have to prove the contrary. His mind domination only partially worked on Revan and Malak, and failed against a more powerful Revan. Sidious is in the top three among the most powerful telepaths in Canon. By your own admission, the sheer scale of his mind-control surpasses even Vitiate's.



You mean that he didn't need it when Revan put him on his ass from his own attack? Or when Vitiate would have been killed had Exile aimed for him instead of his lightsaber? He didn't need it, yet uncertainty showed for a moment on his face when he was disarmed? Really?



Stop it with this "very powerful" vague nonsense. Revan is more powerful, but he is not as powerful as Sidious. An analysis of the fight would indicate that Revan could possibly have gotten to Vitiate had he made some better tactical decisions. I don't have the book with me now. When I do, I can explain it to you.

But, for example, Luke Skywalker has displayed speed feats far superior to Vitiate's (well, because he has none). In as early as The Shadows of Mindor, he ran 2 kilometers in 2 minutes.




Blantant lie. He could do it fine in Dark Empire without dying.



WTF is this shit? He could destroy the clone body of Palpatine? Yeah, and Skywalker could destroy the body of Vitiate, you moron.



I actually read the novel, so there is no need to Make Shit Up. They entered the Emperor's citadel and never returned. No indication that Vitiate encountered them personally, rather than trapping them in a room and gassing them to death. Nor have the members of the dark council ever shown themselves to be particularly powerful.

Skywalker, on the other hand, killed a thousand Yuuzhan Vong warriors and, as I recall and defeated half a dozen Vong slayers (one, infected with the Alpha Red virus, fought Kyp Durron to a standstill) right after this. When he was fighting his way to the palace, he was described as looking though he were wielding twenty lightsabers at once. So in sabers, Skywalker is clearly the superior, especially given that Vitiate, by your own admission, is not the saber expert.

In the Force, Luke Skywalker has knocked over a crippled AT-AT in the force (superior TK). He has instantly killed a slayer through its lightsaber resistant armor (superior lightning). He has rooted himself in the Force so that a supermassive black hole could not move him, and thereby defeated a person with the combined Force potential of an entire species.

And...how the **** does Vitiate defeat Abeloth?

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Arhael
No I don't think that he is untouchable. But what I know is that Luke displayed on multiple accounts that he can counter stronger Force manipulations with less effort. You said that he can handle Luke with the Force. But I say that you don't need to have equal power to counter someone's Force attack. And Luke himself proved it on multiple accounts.
Any examples?

Originally posted by Arhael
That's how it should be. After reading all books with him I am not surprised about it. big grin
No, their should be a limit to hype. It distracts from facts and logical reasoning.

Originally posted by Arhael
Caedus himself is no ordinary foe. But there is much more evidence that he is not invincible and that is what makes the story interesting.
I did not said that Caedus is an ordinary foe. He exposed the limits of Luke. A more powerful opponent (for Luke) will logically and relatively pose greater challenge and danger to him. smile

Herbert Spencer
My skepticism aside, good luck. That "source" has been floating around the internet for many years and no one has actually found it.

Arhael
Any examples?
Luke vs C'baot clone.
Luke vs reborn Palpatine.
Luke vs Lord Nyax.
Luke vs Unu'thul and Lumi Plo empowered by millions of killiks.
Luke vs Abeloth
In all above examples enemies had much more power, than Luke, yet, non of them managed to Force handle him.

Luke vs Baron Do master - this is the brightest example. Of course the master wasn't more powerful but Luke used much less Force exertions to counter him, in other words much more wisely.

One time Abeloth managed to wrap around him. She was multiple times more powerful, yet, he was able to resist.

After encounter with Abeloth, while being Force exhausted, fought together with Ben and Vestara against 20+ sith sabers attacking them with Force and lightsabers simultaneously.

The hype was born because of all the facts and logical conclusions. big grin

Not really. No one else managed to make Luke as reckless as Jacen during fight. And no one else managed to fight as cleverly as Jacen, imho it was the best opponent EU could offer combat wise.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
This response has jack shit to do with my post, which was a response to your statement that logic does not apply to Star Wars. Yet you still attempt to debate logically. It does not take an intelligent person, even, to understand the grand stupidity in this.
Here is my original statement:

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Star Wars and LOGIC don't complement each other very often.

This is simply my observation regarding Star Wars lore. However, I am not saying that the debate on Star Wars related stuff should not be based on logical reasoning and facts either.

It seems like you are arguing here just for the sake of argument. Try to grasp the intended point instead. If you are not capable of doing so, then simply ask me to elaborate.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
That's my entire point. Jesus, you are a ****ing dumbass.
Your assumptions indicate otherwise.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
"one is a Champion of Light like Yoda and Revan".

(sigh). Do I need to explain how this vague, semantic-obsessed and irrelevant statement is stupid?
Here is a hint: This Jedi impressed even Revan when they met.

In addition, Revan' (centuries earlier) prophesy: It is inevitable that a champion of the light will one day rise to oppose him.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Those Jedi of yours were powerful? roll eyes (sarcastic)
They were experienced Jedi Masters.

One of them - Tol Braga - stalemated a Dark Council member in a duel.

Another one - Warren Sedoru - posed some challenge to the main Jedi hero (whom we play in the game).

Don't know much about the 3rd one.

However, none of them sucked as much as Coleman Trebor, who could not even deflect blaster fire from such a close distance.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Good job, disciple of circular logic. And amazing comeback.
I base my assumptions on logical reasoning and established facts.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
What? That it puts "reality" into Vitiate's powers? What kind of vague, semantical, flowery bullshit is that supposed to mean? How powerful does unleashing the "full power of the dark side against the defenseless droid" make him? Qui Gon? RotS Kenobi? Dooku? Palpatine? The Entire Dark Side?
That attack shattered the droid in to a million pieces. Sounds better now?

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
How is the quote quantifiable in the slightest?
The disturbance (in the air) and the damage it caused to the opponent.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Illogical? By your own decree, logic does not apply in Star Wars. Please, stop contradicting yourself.
Covered above. Stop embarracing yourself.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
And events in 3rd person limited (ie, the Revan novel) are statements of events that occured from a character's PoV. There's the same thing.
The (most powerful Sith Lord ever) statement is part of the written story of the Plagueis novel? Or on the back cover?

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Of course, you do have a canonical statement substantiating your claim. I just know that you wouldn't pull shit out of your arse, right?
Your point is?

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
I will not be surprised, if you not being surprised at a hypothetical occurence is irrelevant.
Another example of arguing just for the sake of argument from you. Your point is?

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
No, really?
Are they not?

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Why does it matter? (BTW, Herbert, thank you, but I am fairly certain that TFU.net asked somebody with authority in Lucasfilms. I will try to find the source.)
Yes, it matters. And when you present an authoritarian example like this one, make sure that it is not misleading or you have full knowledge of it.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
He was the greatest practitioner of light in his time. This isn't that hard to decipher; only if we use your ridiculous interpretation of the words "history" and "ever".
Dumb person;

In Star Wars The Complete Encylopedia - Yoda is still stated to be the strongest Jedi regardless of updated information of Luke Skywalker in it (up to Legacy of the Force based content). Why is this? Luke supposedly surpassed Yoda by New Jedi Order based content, correct?

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Of course he is more suitable for the title. That's my point. Plagueis is the most powerful sith of all time until Sidious. This interpretation fits together the various statements without any contradictions. Your "interpretation" involves dismissing these sources as "hyperbole". Basic principle, again: the best theory fits with the facts. End.
This is how you perceive the meaning of that quote. It has not been explicitly stated that Plagueis is the most powerful Sith Lord until Sidious. Get the memo?

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
So again, feel free to explain why historians call the Mongolian Empire "the largest continuous land Empire in history (or ever)". Are they wrong? Should they say "in the past"? Or "until now" to satisfy your obsession with semantics?
No real historian would say that. British Empire is considered to be largest in size and rightfully so. You need to revisit history lessons too.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
No fvking shit!! Guess what? "enormous command of the Force" =/= beating Palpatine. You used the quote as evidence for calling him "TOPS" and that he could clear the gauntlet. How does enormous command of the Force equate to more enormous command of the Force than Palpatine, or even Dooku? Agen Kolar and Kit Fisto were among the most celebrated swordsmen in the order; can they outduel Palpatine? May-oh, wait.
The sentence - full power of the Force - is canonical and is presented in 3rd party narration form. Deal with it.

The power of Count Dooku and others have not been described with this kind of narration. Your point is moot.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
The relevant point is that your rebuttal stated a completely irrelevant fact. That Nyriss was on the Dark Council and privvy to secrets had no contribution to her knowledge of the Emperor's past; she found it herself, and would have been executed had she been caught.
The whole argument is about the validity of Nyriss' account. My argument is that parts of her account have already been verified by other sources and I mentioned them. This suggests that Nyriss' account (as a whole) is not unsubstantiated legend, as you originally claimed. Nothing is irrelevant in my argument.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
What, you seriously fail to understand such a simple analogy? Your logic is this:

a) Nyriss told a story she admitted was unverifiable.
b) Some of Nyriss's story was confirmed to be true.
c) Therefore, Nyriss's story is true.

Which can be applied in similar ways to Achilles:

a) Homer told a story about Achilles and the Battle of Troy.
b) There is evidence that Troy and Achilles really did exist.
c) Therefore, the Illiad is pure truth!.

a) The internet makes numerous claims.
b) Some of these claims are true.
c) The internet is pure truth.
Read this: "Those who witnessed the events no longer live to verify them. But if you had ever met the Emperor in person, you would not be so hesitant to accept the tale as fact."

Critics typically ignore this part. Not surprised.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
I don't outright dismiss the legend. I have admitted that it could very well be true multiple times in this debate, but your reading skills are extremely selective.
Good. And my reading is not extremely selective.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Proven wrong? It has to be proven wrong? When there is nothing to prove it right, it is unsubstantiated.
This is Nyriss' point of view. Their can be ways to verify the legend. Vitiate' own writings is one method. wink

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
I already explained my dismissal of them, dumbass. To borrow an analogy I read from this board, the fact that babies exist does not lend credence to the theory that storks delivered them.
Can you please focus on explaining your original points instead of adding more silly examples in to the equation?

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
We should work with what we have got? Even if it is unverified legend? Even when there is a host of (pretty impressive) feats in Vitiate's name that are verifiable?
Then don't bring the legend part in to the debate. If you are not willing to believe in it. Simple.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Crap logic. Being the only evidence does not magically give something validity.
It is not crap logic. Nyriss' account is the most detailed we have for the background history of Vitiate thus far. Their is no valid reason to dismiss it she herself did not made all of that up regardless of what she said about its validity.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
More crap logic. Because Sidious can fry 50 (relatively) weak clonetroopers, it must be able to work on a single powerful individual. After all, no need to quantify how powerful "powerful" is and how it relates to the single powerful individual. Because Palpatine can saber-kill 3 powerful jedi in seconds, he can obviously do it to a single powerful sith. It's not like as if "powerful" is relative or anything.
Those 4 Jedi were not like clonetroopers. Each had different strengths and weaknesses. Two of them were very strong at least. None of them could resist Vitiate' mind dominating powers regardless of personal strength. And simultaneously dominating them would have required more effort on part of Vitiate. Get the memo?

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
You can't be serious with using "champion of light" as an argument, can you?
This is how he is perceived by others.

For example:

The Revan I know is a hero. A champion of the light. (Bastilla Shan)

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Yes, and he also stated before the fight his confidence of being able to resist Vitiate.
Because he knew what he could do this time.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Ah. "some feats and well-developed abilities" is obviously enough to defeat Palpatine.
Yes.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Mindless? Revan didn't lose his tactical genius when he was enslaved did he? I remember him nearly conquering the Republic. Hardly seems mindless to me.
Revan was very powerful and managed to overcome his mental grip.

However, look at the case of Warren Sedoru.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Arhael
Luke vs C'baot clone.
Luke vs reborn Palpatine.
Luke vs Lord Nyax.
Luke vs Unu'thul and Lumi Plo empowered by millions of killiks.
Luke vs Abeloth
By phrase; Force manipulation - do you assume 'mind domination' or 'Force powers'?

Originally posted by Arhael
In all above examples enemies had much more power, than Luke, yet, non of them managed to Force handle him.
C'boath; Luke was stronger then him.

Palpatine; Luke succeeded in defeating Palpatine in a lightsaber duel once and this two with aid from Leia via 'Force harmony' technique. In terms of Force powers, their was no comparison. Palpatine had much greater command of the Force. In short, circumstances favored Luke.

Nyax; Luke did not killed this individual or am I missing something? confused

Unu'Thul; while this individual was no ordinary Force-user; he is still an overhyped piece of shit. Luke is considerably stronger then him.

Abeloth; this is the only decent opponent besides Sidious and Caedus for Luke. And abeloth is far more powerful then him. She actually made a joke out of him in combat situations. Her greatest limitation is the bodies which she possesses. She can kill Luke, if she wants to but wastes chances.

Originally posted by Arhael
Luke vs Baron Do master - this is the brightest example. Of course the master wasn't more powerful but Luke used much less Force exertions to counter him, in other words much more wisely.
Interesting.

Originally posted by Arhael
One time Abeloth managed to wrap around him. She was multiple times more powerful, yet, he was able to resist.
He did resisted to the best of his efforts but succeeded on few occasions. Abeloth got ample opportunity to kill him too. But this did not happen because of the story arc. In one of such cases, Vestara helped Luke. wink

Originally posted by Arhael
After encounter with Abeloth, while being Force exhausted, fought together with Ben and Vestara against 20+ sith sabers attacking them with Force and lightsabers simultaneously.
They faced some guards who were killed by StealthX aircraft. Correct me, if I am reading another incident.

Originally posted by Arhael
The hype was born because of all the facts and logical conclusions. big grin
No. They were born out of fanboyism and misleading information presented by fanboys. Not accusing you of anything though.

Originally posted by Arhael
Not really. No one else managed to make Luke as reckless as Jacen during fight. And no one else managed to fight as cleverly as Jacen, imho it was the best opponent EU could offer combat wise.
Being clever is not enough. This is one of Solo' methods for overcoming his shortcomings.

However, Vitiate is more powerful and dangerous then Caedus. He can exploit Luke' mental condition in a manner that no other can do. He can use this to his advantage.

Rogue Gladiator
Oh my god...



The British Empire is the largest continuous land empire in history? You are a brilliant example of the failure of our public schools.




Oh my god! A Jedi impressed Revan! This somehow matters! Did you know that Yoda "holds you in such high esteem". This must mean that AotC Obi-Wan is superior to Palpatine. Or, Luke Skywalker was impressed how Vestara Khai's bladework in Backlash, so this must put the 16 year old sith girl above Darth Sidious as well.



Assuming that you take "million pieces" literally (despite being one of the most common figure of speeches in the English language, and despite the dubious assumption that Revan, whose PoV it was from, could instantly recognize a droid in millions of pieces from thousands), this means that Lord Vitiate can destroy the defenseless droid!

...




You don't think that Count Dooku has been described in the same flowery language? What about Yoda "most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known?" The statement "enormous command of the Force" is no more descriptive or relevant than your rebuttal. Agen Kolar was also described as a celebrated swordsman; could he beat Vitiate in a lightsaber duel?



So the conclusion that you get from this reasoning is that Vitiate can mind dominate Sidious. Really, this train of thought is so unbelievably stupid, I can scarcely believe you are being serious.

1. Vitiate mind dominated four powerful Jedi.
2. "Each had different strengths and weaknesses"
3. "Two of them were very strong at least"
4. He dominated them at once, so that's impressive.
...
5. Therefore, he could dominate Sidious!

Where did you get to point five? How powerful in relation to Sidious are these four jedi? 50%? 60%? How powerful is "powerful"? By this same logic...

1. Sidious defeated three of the greatest duelists in the Order in a matter of seconds
2. Each of these swordsmen had "different strengths and weaknesses.
3. They were all "very strong", at least.
4. Sidious did them to all of them sequentially, effectively at once.
...
5. Therefore, Sidious could pwn Vitiate within seconds!

...




So anybody with "some feats" and "well-developed abilities" can defeat Palpatine. Let's see...AotC Anakin has "some feats" (jumping off of a moving airspeeder, falling thousands of meters and grabbing onto another, timing it exactly, and not dying, for one), and "well-developed abilities (we see plenty of screen time with him, plus we have the novels and various EU sources around that time).

So, obviously, Anakin in Attack of the Clones can defeat Palpatine.





In case if this isn't getting through to you, my point is that "very powerful" and "enormously powerful" are not good indicators of power relative to other powerful beings. "Powerful" could range from an above average Jedi Master to Luke Skywalker. All you have proven in all of your various flowery quotes is that Lord Vitiate is one powerful mother. But never do you explain how this allows him to defeat RotS Sidious, or DE Sidious, or Luke, or Abeloth.



Ah, what do we have you? I not so subtly ask you to substantiate your claim that newer sources override older ones, and you completely miss the ridiculously simplistic question, and answer with your point is?

I'll take this as a concession that you don't have evidence to support your claim, and that you were just pulling shit out of your arse. The alternative is that your reading comprehension is terrible enough so that you can't read into implied questions to even the slightest extent.



Hey look; I ask you to quantify a statement, and you respond by...mentioning that there is a "disturbance (in the air)" and the "damage it caused to the opponent". Funny how making a "disturbance (in the air)" puts you above Palpatine, who turned an entire planet into a dark side infested wasteland, or how causing "damage" satisfies the request of quantifying the quote.


Just among some of the stupid shit in your response. I'll respond to the rest later. And you feel the need to flame somebody who just joined the board yesterday, without cause. How welcoming of you. What's more, I didn't really nitpick most of these. I literally chose random statements you made, and they were all stupid. Amazing.

Herbert Spencer
Dear God, why?
I know some of this must be because I'm ancient in KMC-years, but your tenacity is exhausting to even me, the reader.

If you keep this up, you'll blow your load on SWL and end up jaded and embittered and flirting with Nephthys.

Do not make the mistakes of others, my son. You have conquered your adversary, that much is obvious.

Arhael
By phrase; Force manipulation - do you assume 'mind domination' or 'Force powers'? Anything what possibly can go. Defending against Force does not have to involve fighting it directly. Sometimes, it is more convenient to jump away.

In terms of potential of course. But at that time Luke still had much to learn, C'baot had much more power. Darksiders are in general more powerful. Towards the end madness empowered him so much that there was huge tornado, which Luke and Mara couldn't counter in any way.

Emm. Force harmony was after lightsaber duel to cut off his channeling. During duel she was just watching and see it as straggle of light and dark, the whole credit goes to Luke for that.
Lea only helped Luke understand his mistake. Then Luke cast of darkside and after Palpatine had no control over him and would never have again.

That is why I put him as example. Palpatine's power didn't help him in winning light saber duel.

Nyax's mind controlling was even stronger than Vitiate's. Plus, Luke was much weaker at that time because for many years he used Force only passively.

This is getting ridiculous. I assume you didn't read those books.

That is why I put her as example. Was she able to mind dominate him? Nope. She even tried to play on his feelings for Callista, which failed as well. Luke even allowed their minds to merge, then he not only didn't get consumed but reaped Callista's spirit off her. If Abeloth couldn't mind dominate him, no one could.


The only joke would be changing bodies but in combat she was getting her limbs chopped. Yes, she did waste couple of chances, so did Luke.

It's other way around. He succeeded on many occasions and lost on few.

I guess you are. It happened on the planet with Death Seed. Vestara killed Tsil crystal in order to stun all those Sith and escape. Luke was Force drained after reaping Callista's spirit out of Abeloth essence.


I red each book with Luke and, seriously, he is described there as the most powerful in EU and by far.

Being clever is not the only thing. For starters he is Skywalker blood, which means that he, also, has got immense potential. The only his shortcoming was that he relied only on his inner power, unlike other Sith drawing on emotions of enemy and draining life energy. Yet, he explored his potential to its limits, became the most versatile Jedi/Sith of all time and gave Luke more problems, than all those Sith with much greater power.

Exploiting mental condition? After Palpatine's failure this subject is closed, since he was same Vitiate but with lightsaber. It would be possible with Luke from first NJO books as he was much weaker in power.
Abeloth failed, which by default makes Vitiate fail.
Luke is no Revan with all that nonsense about balancing between light and dark. He even refused to Force choke Welk, while his lightsaber was broken. There is no darkness inside him, Vititate has nothing to expose. Luke's mind is simply out of Vitiate's reach.

Herbert Spencer
Arhael
I red each book with Luke and, seriously, he is described there as the most powerful in EU and by far.

No.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
Dear God, why?
I know some of this must be because I'm ancient in KMC-years, but your tenacity is exhausting to even me, the reader.

If you keep this up, you'll blow your load on SWL and end up jaded and embittered and flirting with Nephthys.

There are worse fates. :3

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
The British Empire is the largest continuous land empire in history? You are a brilliant example of the failure of our public schools.
Now this debate is expected to move towards educational credentials. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Yes, Mongol Empire is the largest continuous land empire in history. I accept the error on my part in understanding your statement.

Now can we discuss Star Wars?

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Oh my god! A Jedi impressed Revan! This somehow matters! Did you know that Yoda "holds you in such high esteem". This must mean that AotC Obi-Wan is superior to Palpatine. Or, Luke Skywalker was impressed how Vestara Khai's bladework in Backlash, so this must put the 16 year old sith girl above Darth Sidious as well.
Meaning of word 'esteem'; respect and admiration

A person can be respected and admired for a variety of reasons and not just skills.

Anyways, my intended point is that this Jedi Knight is very powerful too and Bioware intends to promote him/her as such. His case is similar to that of Revan.

Revan' fans faced lot of blacklash for promoting him as one of the most powerful individuals in the mythos. I am not surprised that same story may repeat with this new Jedi. You are already a critic.

Get the memo?

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Assuming that you take "million pieces" literally (despite being one of the most common figure of speeches in the English language, and despite the dubious assumption that Revan, whose PoV it was from, could instantly recognize a droid in millions of pieces from thousands), this means that Lord Vitiate can destroy the defenseless droid!
Your silly assumptions is the ISSUE here.

You wanted quantification of the quote - I provided the canonical statement to give you an idea. Focus on the CONTEXT of the points. Don't try to ASSUME my THOUGHTS.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
You don't think that Count Dooku has been described in the same flowery language? What about Yoda "most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known?" The statement "enormous command of the Force" is no more descriptive or relevant than your rebuttal. Agen Kolar was also described as a celebrated swordsman; could he beat Vitiate in a lightsaber duel?
Have they all been stated to unleash full power of the Force?

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
So the conclusion that you get from this reasoning is that Vitiate can mind dominate Sidious. Really, this train of thought is so unbelievably stupid, I can scarcely believe you are being serious.

1. Vitiate mind dominated four powerful Jedi.
2. "Each had different strengths and weaknesses"
3. "Two of them were very strong at least"
4. He dominated them at once, so that's impressive.
...
5. Therefore, he could dominate Sidious!

Where did you get to point five? How powerful in relation to Sidious are these four jedi? 50%? 60%? How powerful is "powerful"? By this same logic...
You are asking a STUPID question.

Do you think that Sidious' defensive capabilities would be relatively greater then the defensive capabilities of all those Jedi put together? This is not necessary regardless of his power.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
1. Sidious defeated three of the greatest duelists in the Order in a matter of seconds
2. Each of these swordsmen had "different strengths and weaknesses.
3. They were all "very strong", at least.
4. Sidious did them to all of them sequentially, effectively at once.
...
5. Therefore, Sidious could pwn Vitiate within seconds!

...
How does killing opponents with a lightsaber equates to immunity to Force powers. genius? roll eyes (sarcastic)

By all means, your example proves that Sidious is fast and deadly with a lightsaber. It does not proves that he is immune to Force powers too.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
So anybody with "some feats" and "well-developed abilities" can defeat Palpatine. Let's see...AotC Anakin has "some feats" (jumping off of a moving airspeeder, falling thousands of meters and grabbing onto another, timing it exactly, and not dying, for one), and "well-developed abilities (we see plenty of screen time with him, plus we have the novels and various EU sources around that time).

So, obviously, Anakin in Attack of the Clones can defeat Palpatine.
I am talking about VITIATE. Not EVERYBODY.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
In case if this isn't getting through to you, my point is that "very powerful" and "enormously powerful" are not good indicators of power relative to other powerful beings. "Powerful" could range from an above average Jedi Master to Luke Skywalker. All you have proven in all of your various flowery quotes is that Lord Vitiate is one powerful mother. But never do you explain how this allows him to defeat RotS Sidious, or DE Sidious, or Luke, or Abeloth.
Vitiate killed 9 Dark Council members by himself (confirmed by Scourge). This alone is sufficient indication of his combat capabilities.

Vitiate has demonstrated exceptional command of mind tricks. He can use his mind dominating powers as a weapon in combat situations, which can take any unsuspecting opponent by surprise. Vitiate can sow confusion and fear in to the minds of his opponents or demoralize them. He can even create illusions of combatants with the Force. These abilities can grant Vitiate early advantage in combat situations.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Ah, what do we have you? I not so subtly ask you to substantiate your claim that newer sources override older ones, and you completely miss the ridiculously simplistic question, and answer with your point is?

I'll take this as a concession that you don't have evidence to support your claim, and that you were just pulling shit out of your arse. The alternative is that your reading comprehension is terrible enough so that you can't read into implied questions to even the slightest extent.
Ever heard about RETCONNING?

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Hey look; I ask you to quantify a statement, and you respond by...mentioning that there is a "disturbance (in the air)" and the "damage it caused to the opponent". Funny how making a "disturbance (in the air)" puts you above Palpatine, who turned an entire planet into a dark side infested wasteland, or how causing "damage" satisfies the request of quantifying the quote.
Nihilus destroyed an entire planet too. Does this proves that he is the most lethal combatant in a close range fight?

Sidious certainly possesses the power to kill any opponent. However, things are not so simple in a close range combat situation.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Just among some of the stupid shit in your response. I'll respond to the rest later. And you feel the need to flame somebody who just joined the board yesterday, without cause. How welcoming of you. What's more, I didn't really nitpick most of these. I literally chose random statements you made, and they were all stupid. Amazing.
You hurled lot more insults at me then I did so. What an arrival.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
Do not make the mistakes of others, my son. You have conquered your adversary, that much is obvious.
Do not discourage him.

Yes, I have faced criticism for my perceptions but a lot of my points have been proven by now.

And this member (Rogue Gladiator) has conquered no one. His logic is extremely flawed and his claims are filled with errors. You youself pointed out one such error. And I thank you for this.

Herbert Spencer
No, you've been beaten as thoroughly and consistently as a redneck's wife, complete with the characteristic denial. I pity our newcomer for the time he'll waste arguing with you.

Arhael
What combat capabilities are you talking about? He didn't have lightsaber.

He probably electrocuted them. Even strong Lords are mostly unable to defend against Force lightning. (Proved by Scourge and Naryss)
The Sith are cowards by nature. Even if some of them were powerful enough to fight him, they simply would piss their pants and defenselessly numb in one place. Scourge was pissing his pants entire novel.
They are certainly were caught offguard. Even Yoda couldn't absorb Force lightning at the begging of the fight.

Palpatine himself was mind dominating people and even Jedi. Kam Solusar mind dominated, until Luke have broken the spell. Luke himself was mind dominated just before final fight.

There are plenty of evidence that Palpatine is as powerful as Vitiate (imho more powerful).

The only difference is that Vitiate managed to make himself immortal. But Palpatine's power became so immense and destructive that his body and all subsequent clone bodies started failing and decaying. His original body he managed to sustain by draining life of millions beings from Byss planet. Towards DE his power was much more destructive, than Vitiate's.

Assuming that Vitiate would mind dominate Palpatine is just pathetic.

Arhael
No.
Apologies. I wanted to say strongest. In terms of power it goes to Sith.

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
No, you've been beaten as thoroughly and consistently as a redneck's wife, complete with the characteristic denial. I pity our newcomer for the time he'll waste arguing with you.
I am actually enjoying it. big grin

It is one of those contests TOR vs book reader. starwars

Stealth Moose
I haven't seen broken Bold coding like that since Lightsnake.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
No, you've been beaten as thoroughly and consistently as a redneck's wife, complete with the characteristic denial. I pity our newcomer for the time he'll waste arguing with you.
If skills with the lightsaber equates to immunity against Force powers - then yes, your claim is valid. roll eyes (sarcastic)

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Arhael
Anything what possibly can go. Defending against Force does not have to involve fighting it directly. Sometimes, it is more convenient to jump away.
Interesting point.

For mind domination;

Luke never had exposure to mind dominating powers-as effective-as from Vitiate. In most of the cases, he faced Dun Moch.

Sidious is the only individual who managed to break Luke' will once but this happened after Luke had fallen and was subdued in a duel. Luke lost his confidence in these circumstances.

But Vitiate brings this game to a whole new level. Luke will be taken by surprise. At the very least, Vitiate can seriously mess up Luke' mental condition IMO.

Originally posted by Arhael
In terms of potential of course. But at that time Luke still had much to learn, C'baot had much more power. Darksiders are in general more powerful. Towards the end madness empowered him so much that there was huge tornado, which Luke and Mara couldn't counter in any way.
Can you provide details?

Originally posted by Arhael
Emm. Force harmony was after lightsaber duel to cut off his channeling. During duel she was just watching and see it as straggle of light and dark, the whole credit goes to Luke for that.
Leia was empowering him the whole time or am I missing something? Because in a previous (fair) duel, Sidious clearly subdued Luke.

Originally posted by Arhael
Lea only helped Luke understand his mistake. Then Luke cast of darkside and after Palpatine had no control over him and would never have again.
Yes, I know this. She gave him hope and courage to overcome his demons.

Originally posted by Arhael
That is why I put him as example. Palpatine's power didn't help him in winning light saber duel.
But it is important to consider that Luke could not defeat Sidious without external help. wink

Originally posted by Arhael
Nyax's mind controlling was even stronger than Vitiate's. Plus, Luke was much weaker at that time because for many years he used Force only passively.
You need to prove that Nyax' mind controlling is more effective.

Originally posted by Arhael
This is getting ridiculous. I assume you didn't read those books.
I have read books. Unu'Thul used Dun Moch against Luke and it did not work. Luke overpowered him and forced his opponent to obey him - sort of like what Sidious did to Luke long ago.

People often confuse Dun Moch with (offensive) telepathic powers. Bad assumption.

Originally posted by Arhael
That is why I put her as example. Was she able to mind dominate him? Nope. She even tried to play on his feelings for Callista, which failed as well. Luke even allowed their minds to merge, then he not only didn't get consumed but reaped Callista's spirit off her. If Abeloth couldn't mind dominate him, no one could.
Abeloth could influence minds of those individuals who had prolonged exposure to her. She kept many individuals in the Maw to consume and use, when necessary. The attempts to dominate her will failed actually.

No where, did I get the impression (while reading Vortex) that she could use her telepathic powers to instantly break the will of any opponent during combat situation like Vitiate.

Originally posted by Arhael
The only joke would be changing bodies but in combat she was getting her limbs chopped. Yes, she did waste couple of chances, so did Luke.
Luke failed to kill Abeloth because of her transfer essense capability. When one body gets destroyed, she possesses another. This is exactly what Vitiate is also capable of doing. To actually kill her, her essense has to be contained or destroyed.

Originally posted by Arhael
It's other way around. He succeeded on many occasions and lost on few.
This is because the bodies that Abeloth possessed were getting destroyed in fights.

Originally posted by Arhael
I guess you are. It happened on the planet with Death Seed. Vestara killed Tsil crystal in order to stun all those Sith and escape. Luke was Force drained after reaping Callista's spirit out of Abeloth essence.
Direct quote will be appreciated.

Originally posted by Arhael
I red each book with Luke and, seriously, he is described there as the most powerful in EU and by far.
Again, direct quote with be appreciated.

Originally posted by Arhael
Being clever is not the only thing. For starters he is Skywalker blood, which means that he, also, has got immense potential. The only his shortcoming was that he relied only on his inner power, unlike other Sith drawing on emotions of enemy and draining life energy. Yet, he explored his potential to its limits, became the most versatile Jedi/Sith of all time and gave Luke more problems, than all those Sith with much greater power.
Seriously? Sidious proved to be a much greater headache for Luke to begin with.

Originally posted by Arhael
Exploiting mental condition? After Palpatine's failure this subject is closed, since he was same Vitiate but with lightsaber. It would be possible with Luke from first NJO books as he was much weaker in power.
You need to understand that it is not necessary for Palpatine to be as proficient in mind tricks as Vitiate is, regardless of how strong he is. Did not get the point? Some examples;

- Nihilus demonstrated greatest proficiency in Force Drain. It came natural to him.

- Vitiate demonstrated greatest proficiency in mind controlling powers. He shaped such powers in to (offensive) telepathic weapons of combat.

- Palpatine demonstrated greatest proficiency in Force Storms. He absolutely mastered this power.

And vice versa.

Originally posted by Arhael
Abeloth failed, which by default makes Vitiate fail.
Because of story arc. She possesses the power to kill Luke. Nuff said.

Originally posted by Arhael
Luke is no Revan with all that nonsense about balancing between light and dark. He even refused to Force choke Welk, while his lightsaber was broken. There is no darkness inside him, Vititate has nothing to expose.
Luke is also not above emotions. He can be exploited as Caedus showed.

Originally posted by Arhael
Luke's mind is simply out of Vitiate's reach.
Poor assumption.

Nephthys
Unuthul did attempt to mentally dominate Luke in the first book iirc. And although Luke struggled, he resisted him.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Nephthys
Unuthul did attempt to mentally dominate Luke in the first book iirc. And although Luke struggled, he resisted him.
Any details?

Nephthys
Its the first time they meet him when Luke, Leia and Han check out the Kiliks. At one point Unuthul looks at Luke and he feels an intense mental pressure that he barely resists. IIRC its ambiguous if he would have been successful if Unuthul had kept it up. I remember it because it made me sit up and see Unuthul as a legitimate threat.

Arhael
Lord Nyax almost mind dominated Luke, Mara and Tahiri simultaneously without even trying to find weaknesses in their emotions. All three were pure lightsiders at the time, which makes it much harder to dominate them, than already corrupted Revan and Malak.

Obviously Palpatine couldn't mind dominate him just like that. Vitiate was able to dominate Revan and Malak because they were close to darkness already.

What level? There is no way to dominate powerful Jedi, if he hasn't got doubts, fear or other mental weaknesses.

Are you expecting me to search quotes from the book? 0_o

You are missing the fact that she wasn't Jedi to learn such advance technique to empower someone, which not even majority of masters could perform. She simply helped him to break from Sidious control by convincing him on mental level. Then she was just watching. And only then they made twin harmony concentration to counter Palpatine's storm. It was Luke on his own defeating Palpatine in combat.

That fight was in no way fair as Luke was consumed by darkness and his emotions were in mess. This fight and fight after brings the whole point of star wars moral that "You can't defeat darkness by darkness".


Unu'Thul tried to bend his will directly with help of heave-mind. In turn Luke imposed his own will and was using Thul's own power against him. Kind of Aikido way and another example of overcoming more powerful foe.

These things are interlaced. Revan was dominated because his emotions were in mess after war, otherwise it would be much harder.

She didn't get any opportunity to try that. Each time she was outnumbered. She was gonna mind dominate Grand Lord of the Sith but after Luke reaped Callista out of her, he was able to expose that weakness and save his sanity that way.

Like she could fight as a spirit. big grin

How many injuries Luke had after fight with Palpatine? Exactly, non. How many he had after Jacen? Hard to count.



Vitiate and Palpatine both were as comfortable as Nihilus at draining life energy with difference that they weren't dependent on it. Vitiate was able to perform that ritual because of draining life ability he naturally possessed.

Palpatine like Vitiate had plenty of mind-dominated minions and Sith. Luke is one of the most powerful Jedi of all time, it obviously wasn't easy task to mind dominate him straight away.

Family member torturing his son is as bad as it could get. But who Vitiate is for him? I hope he wouldn't try something like "Luke, I am your father!"

Poor assumption of you to think that Vitiate can mind dominate any Jedi including son of chosen one simply because he was able to mind dominate and own your favorite Revan.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Nephthys
Its the first time they meet him when Luke, Leia and Han check out the Kiliks. At one point Unuthul looks at Luke and he feels an intense mental pressure that he barely resists.
I will check this out.

Unu'Thul has demonstrated proficiency in probing the minds of his opponents. When he did so to Luke, it took the combined might of several Jedi in preventing him from doing so.

However, from what I have been reading - Unu'Thul is not as proficient as Vitiate in using mind dominating powers to crush the will of others. Not even close. As an example, just a minor mental brush from Vitiate put Scourge on his knees who is also no ordinary Sith.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Arhael
Lord Nyax almost mind dominated Luke, Mara and Tahiri simultaneously without even trying to find weaknesses in their emotions. All three were pure lightsiders at the time, which makes it much harder to dominate them, than already corrupted Revan and Malak.
This is lame argument. Nyax almost dominated the minds of these Jedi and then what happened? How the Jedi resisted his telepathic assault - Through combined efforts or on individual basis?

Also, provide evidence of your arguments.

Originally posted by Arhael
Obviously Palpatine couldn't mind dominate him just like that. Vitiate was able to dominate Revan and Malak because they were close to darkness already.
Revan and Malak are not the only examples. Vitiate succeeded in crushing the wills of many other individuals. In one case, he did so to 4 Jedi simultaneously and none of them were close to darkness. Play the game and you will get more insight.

Originally posted by Arhael
What level? There is no way to dominate powerful Jedi, if he hasn't got doubts, fear or other mental weaknesses.
No human being is devoid of emotions.

Originally posted by Arhael
Are you expecting me to search quotes from the book? 0_o
Yes. It clears doubt.

Originally posted by Arhael
You are missing the fact that she wasn't Jedi to learn such advance technique to empower someone, which not even majority of masters could perform. She simply helped him to break from Sidious control by convincing him on mental level.
Leia was a Jedi by this time. She learned Battle Meditation, Force Harmony and similar techniques, which could empower individuals.

Originally posted by Arhael
Then she was just watching. And only then they made twin harmony concentration to counter Palpatine's storm. It was Luke on his own defeating Palpatine in combat.
If your assertion is true then it is safe to assume that Luke matched Palpatine' skills with the lightsaber at least. This also affirms the dynamic nature of Star Wars. In one duel, Palpatine subdued Luke. In the other, tables turned.

Originally posted by Arhael
That fight was in no way fair as Luke was consumed by darkness and his emotions were in mess. This fight and fight after brings the whole point of star wars moral that "You can't defeat darkness by darkness".
Luke was emotionally stable during this duel. He lost to a stronger opponent which is not surprising. And I don't buy this "You can't defeat darkness by darkness" based assertion. A dark sider cannot defeat another dark sider? Nonsense.

Originally posted by Arhael
Unu'Thul tried to bend his will directly with help of heave-mind. In turn Luke imposed his own will and was using Thul's own power against him. Kind of Aikido way and another example of overcoming more powerful foe.
Unu'Thul was using Dun Moch. Objective is to erode the will of the opponent or demoralize the opponent. Luke was doing the same too in response. It was a test of wills of both.

Originally posted by Arhael
These things are interlaced. Revan was dominated because his emotions were in mess after war, otherwise it would be much harder.
Their are several techniques to influence the mind of the opponent. Some are more effective then others. Revan was not the only individual who was dominated.

Originally posted by Arhael
She didn't get any opportunity to try that. Each time she was outnumbered. She was gonna mind dominate Grand Lord of the Sith but after Luke reaped Callista out of her, he was able to expose that weakness and save his sanity that way.
Now you are being honest. I appreciate this. smile

Originally posted by Arhael
Like she could fight as a spirit. big grin
No, but she could fight another day. big grin

Originally posted by Arhael
How many injuries Luke had after fight with Palpatine? Exactly, non. How many he had after Jacen? Hard to count.
Palpatine could kill Luke, if he wanted to.

Originally posted by Arhael
Vitiate and Palpatine both were as comfortable as Nihilus at draining life energy with difference that they weren't dependent on it. Vitiate was able to perform that ritual because of draining life ability he naturally possessed.
Yes. Agreed. smile

Originally posted by Arhael
Palpatine like Vitiate had plenty of mind-dominated minions and Sith. Luke is one of the most powerful Jedi of all time, it obviously wasn't easy task to mind dominate him straight away.
True to some extent. But Vitiate has shown greater proficiency in comparison. Dominating the wills of several powerful adversaries simultaneously during combat situation is not a joke.

Originally posted by Arhael
Family member torturing his son is as bad as it could get. But who Vitiate is for him? I hope he wouldn't try something like "Luke, I am your father!"
Hahaha! laughing out loud

Imagine the SHOCK Luke will get, if Vitiate makes this statement. big grin

Luke to Vitiate; You too? evil face

Anyways, Vitiate can forge telepathic links with his targets. After doing this, he can know all about them.

Originally posted by Arhael
Poor assumption of you to think that Vitiate can mind dominate any Jedi including son of chosen one simply because he was able to mind dominate and own your favorite Revan.
Being son of the chosen one is not an argument. It means nothing when the father himself was very vulnerable to manipulation and other things.

Also, Revan is just one individual. Their are many in Vitiate' list.

Rogue Gladiator
You mean how he forged a link with Scourge and learned of his plot, killing him before Revan and the Exile could confront him?

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
You mean how he forged a link with Scourge and learned of his plot, killing him before Revan and the Exile could confront him?
Vitiate did not forged any link with Scourge. Vitiate gave him a minor glimpse of his telepathic powers. He wanted Scourge to know that he can extract truth from him without much effort and what horrors he is capable of committing, if he wants to.

"If your information proves false, however," the Emperor added, "you will suffer a fate more terrible than anything you can imagine."

As he spoke, the dark circles of his eyes seemed to fill with a swirling red mist, and for a brief instant the Emperor gave Scourge a glimpse of his true self.

Scourge cried out in anguish as the Emperor's mind brushed against his, then he collapsed to the floor, shaking like a child. The touch lasted
less than a second, but in that time he witnessed indescribable horrors that dwarfed anything the dark side could conjure even in his worst
nightmares. And beneath the formless terrors lurked the unbearable Void, the pure emptiness of total annihilation.

In short, Vitiate was basically testing Scourge.

However, Vitiate did forged a telepathic link with Revan to probe him.

My point is that this is one of the useful methods to get the basic knowledge about the unknown opponent at least, if not every bit of detail early on.

Nephthys
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I will check this out.

Unu'Thul has demonstrated proficiency in probing the minds of his opponents. When he did so to Luke, it took the combined might of several Jedi in preventing him from doing so.

However, from what I have been reading - Unu'Thul is not as proficient as Vitiate in using mind dominating powers to crush the will of others. Not even close. As an example, just a minor mental brush from Vitiate put Scourge on his knees who is also no ordinary Sith.

Scourge is more or less a Sith Juggernaut iirc and in the novel is shown to focus mainly on the martial aspects of lightsaber combat. I doubt he has much experience against telepathic assaults at all. A similar case would be Raskta Lsu who focused on lightsaber combat to the detrement of her Force defenses.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Revan and Malak are not the only examples. Vitiate succeeded in crushing the wills of many other individuals. In one case, he did so to 4 Jedi simultaneously and none of them were close to darkness. Play the game and you will get more insight.

Proof that he did it simultaneously? What happens in the game is that he subdues them with lightning and then you cut to months later as you've been forced to work for the Emperor. He isn't shown mentally dominating them to my knowledge.

Arhael
This is lame argument. Nyax almost dominated the minds of these Jedi and then what happened? How the Jedi resisted his telepathic assault - Through combined efforts or on individual basis? For you everything is lame, which doesn't favor your beliefs. They managed to resist him with combined effort. I am not going to search quotes for you, open wookieepedia, it perfectly describes each situation and powers of those individuals.

Nice try. I don't play game, yet, I saw video, where he incapacitated them with Force lightning, not mind domination. Plus, as it is game, everything is over-hyped and much more visually effective.


And Jedi like Luke are masters at controlling their emotions and how to use positive emotions and believes to resist whatever influence is to come.


Awkward times, when missing facepalm smiley thumb up

Lightside offers inner balance and noble reason of fighting selflessly to protect others, which gives far greater strength, than constant drilling combat skills and abusing Force powers.

Another fail. Stop making up stuff. He was anything but not emotionally stable.

It was only a few days of Luke's apprenticeship. He certainly didn't enjoy it. He completely lost confidence in himself. He was uncertain, he was scared. All his strength was coming from lightside and by giving in to darkside he lost it all. Nonsense to assume Luke with no experience and knowledge in Sith ways could win most powerful Sith with decades of experience and far superior power. He was less experienced in combat and much weaker in power but it was the lightside that gave him greater self-control, moral strength, pure clarity and Force perception to defeat Palpatine.

Your points never stop amazing me. Dun Moch is a Sith thing. Thul wasn't Sith, he was part of killik mind and was thinking in very same bug way, there is no way he would use something like that. It was plain attempt to mind dominate Luke with use of combined power from millions killiks. And saying that Luke did the same to him in response is totally wrong. He used his will in very different way aimed at breaking killik's control over him, of teacher giving hand to his old student.

Sigh..

Give me at least on example, where he mind dominated someone during combat. Every time it happened before any fight could start. You are describing it as if he instead of Force pushes was throwing mind dominating ultra ballz. sorcerer

Pff. Seriously?

Having father's potential without his weaknesses weights a lot and unlike father Luke showed himself superior among Jedi to ever live. You are trying to prove that Vitiate can mind dominate Luke, when he couldn't dominate Jedi Knight. Argument is finished.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Arhael
For you everything is lame, which doesn't favor your beliefs. They managed to resist him with combined effort. I am not going to search quotes for you, open wookieepedia, it perfectly describes each situation and powers of those individuals.
Everything is not lame for me. I appreciate your input.

You just ended this debate with your answer. In this contest, Luke is alone. Do the math now.

Originally posted by Arhael
Nice try. I don't play game, yet, I saw video, where he incapacitated them with Force lightning, not mind domination. Plus, as it is game, everything is over-hyped and much more visually effective.
1. You cannot grasp these events by just looking at a single video. You need to play the game or watch more videos.
2. Vitiate mind-dominated all 4 Jedi simultaneously and turned them in to his mental servants. Recheck that video and pay attention to what Vitiate says after he incapacited them. Later on, the main hero (Jedi Knight) broke free from Vitiate' mental grip with help from a Force Ghost (or something similar) of one of the Jedi Masters who was immensely skilled in these matters.
3. Visual appeal is not the point here. Events shown in the cutscenes are canon.

Originally posted by Arhael
And Jedi like Luke are masters at controlling their emotions and how to use positive emotions and believes to resist whatever influence is to come.
You don't get the point - do you? No where I have stated that Luke is not a master at controlling his emotions. Most powerful Jedi are. Revan was also immensely good at controlling his emotions.

Vitiate' command of the dark side is immense and goes beyond normal Sith practices. This is why he is able to perform feats that most Sith cannot. Vitiate is UNNATURAL - an ABOMINATION. Try to comprehend this.

Originally posted by Arhael
Awkward times, when missing facepalm smiley thumb up
It is my general assessment of her.

Originally posted by Arhael
Lightside offers inner balance and noble reason of fighting selflessly to protect others, which gives far greater strength, than constant drilling combat skills and abusing Force powers.
Yes. Luke will be certainly a formidable opponent for Vitiate too. He is for any opponent. smile

Originally posted by Arhael
Another fail. Stop making up stuff. He was anything but not emotionally stable.
He wasn't broke during this time. Just prior to the duel, he was doing what he intended to do originally - understand the weakness of Palpatine and destroy his life support (cloned bodies). Sidious fought and broke him during the process. It is just that he had relatively less command of the dark side and lost.

Originally posted by Arhael
It was only a few days of Luke's apprenticeship. He certainly didn't enjoy it. He completely lost confidence in himself. He was uncertain, he was scared. All his strength was coming from lightside and by giving in to darkside he lost it all. Nonsense to assume Luke with no experience and knowledge in Sith ways could win most powerful Sith with decades of experience and far superior power. He was less experienced in combat and much weaker in power but it was the lightside that gave him greater self-control, moral strength, pure clarity and Force perception to defeat Palpatine.
Luke made a blunder. He thought that he could conquer the dark side from within but he was wrong. However, Luke lost his confidence after Sidious broke him. Try to understand the difference.

Originally posted by Arhael
Your points never stop amazing me. Dun Moch is a Sith thing. Thul wasn't Sith, he was part of killik mind and was thinking in very same bug way, there is no way he would use something like that. It was plain attempt to mind dominate Luke with use of combined power from millions killiks. And saying that Luke did the same to him in response is totally wrong. He used his will in very different way aimed at breaking killik's control over him, of teacher giving hand to his old student.
Your grasp of these things is inadequate. Unu'Thul was trying to dissuade Luke in his attempt to reach his position. Luke was trying to redeem Unu'Thul in response. It was a test of wills of both and taunts and words were being exchanged in the process - as it happens with Dun Moch. In the end, Luke overpowered Unu'Thul in combat and forced his will upon the defeated foe - very similar to what Sidious did to him long ago. Their was no telepathic bombardment.

And Jedi do not necessarily restrict themselves to light side powers only. Remember Electric Judgement?

Revan also uses Dun Moch; "I am Revan reborn," he said to Nyriss. "And before me you are nothing."

Originally posted by Arhael
Sigh..
I am correct.

Originally posted by Arhael
Give me at least on example, where he mind dominated someone during combat. Every time it happened before any fight could start. You are describing it as if he instead of Force pushes was throwing mind dominating ultra ballz. sorcerer
This shows your ignorance. Vitiate uses his telepathic powers like a weapon in combat. Those powers typically succeed in crushing the will of the opponent to fight him early on.

Originally posted by Arhael
Pff. Seriously?
Yes. He does so with Revan.

Also, read this:

"If your information proves false, however," the Emperor added, "you will suffer a fate more terrible than anything you can imagine."

As he spoke, the dark circles of his eyes seemed to fill with a swirling red mist, and for a brief instant the Emperor gave Scourge a glimpse of his true self.

Scourge cried out in anguish as the Emperor's mind brushed against his, then he collapsed to the floor, shaking like a child. The touch lasted less than a second, but in that time he witnessed indescribable horrors that dwarfed anything the dark side could conjure even in his worst nightmares. And beneath the formless terrors lurked the unbearable Void, the pure emptiness of total annihilation.

This was just a minor mental brush from Vitiate. If Vitiate had exerted more power, Scourge would be speaking everything.

Originally posted by Arhael
Having father's potential without his weaknesses weights a lot and unlike father Luke showed himself superior among Jedi to ever live. You are trying to prove that Vitiate can mind dominate Luke, when he couldn't dominate Jedi Knight. Argument is finished.
See above. This argument finishes in my favor. Thank you.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Scourge is more or less a Sith Juggernaut iirc and in the novel is shown to focus mainly on the martial aspects of lightsaber combat. I doubt he has much experience against telepathic assaults at all. A similar case would be Raskta Lsu who focused on lightsaber combat to the detrement of her Force defenses.
Good point. However, Vitiate just gave him a minor glimpse of himself. The purpose of this example is to reveal that how potent are the mental powers of Vitiate. He can exert much more power to break an opponent whose command of the Force would be significantly above then that of Scourge.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Proof that he did it simultaneously? What happens in the game is that he subdues them with lightning and then you cut to months later as you've been forced to work for the Emperor. He isn't shown mentally dominating them to my knowledge.
Recheck the video and pay attention to what Vitiate was saying after he incapacitated all of them. Of course, you will not see mental powers in action during the duel. wink

And their are other videos which prove my point. One of them is of Warren Sedoru, which I also provided.

Nephthys
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Good point. However, Vitiate just gave him a minor glimpse of himself. The purpose of this example is to reveal that how potent are the mental powers of Vitiate. He can exert much more power to break an opponent whose command of the Force would be significantly above then that of Scourge.

Indeed. Though I personally don't see it as impressive given how vulnerable to mental assualt Scourge would logically be and how theres nothing suggesting he could adequately defend himself. It's you who allways requests proof of a combatants mental prowess in a Vitiate vs match, is it not? No matter how powerful the person is. Power is meaningless if you can't actually use it.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Recheck the video and pay attention to what Vitiate was saying after he incapacitated all of them. Of course, you will not see mental powers in action during the duel. wink

And their are other videos which prove my point. One of them is of Warren Sedoru, which I also provided.

It appears we have suffered some miscommunication. I believed you meant he dominated them at the same time i.e. 'simultaneously', as in during his speech he used telepathy on all of them at once. But it appears you just meant that they were mentally subjugated to him in the same time period. Which is of course correct.

Rogue Gladiator
No fvking shit. That was my point, laced in very transparent sarcasm that was neverthless far too complex for you to understand.



You lie. Scourge dismissed the idea that the Emperor could easily extract any information from anyone, because if this were true, he would have easily have uncovered the plot against him.

If the Emperor could have easily extracted the truth from Scourge, he would have done so. Instead, he actually hast to analyze the datacard himself.



Yes, and Revan resisted him for three centuries, and influenced the Emperor along the way more than vice versa. Do you think that this helps your argument that "Anyways, Vitiate can forge telepathic links with his targets. After doing this, he can know all about them"?

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
No fvking shit. That was my point, laced in very transparent sarcasm that was neverthless far too complex for you to understand.
You need to calm down. Tossing insults at me will do you no good.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
You lie. Scourge dismissed the idea that the Emperor could easily extract any information from anyone, because if this were true, he would have easily have uncovered the plot against him.

If the Emperor could have easily extracted the truth from Scourge, he would have done so. Instead, he actually hast to analyze the datacard himself.
You fail to understand the plot. Vitiate was testing Scourge for his loyality. He was not trying to probe Scourge' mind.

Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Yes, and Revan resisted him for three centuries, and influenced the Emperor along the way more than vice versa. Do you think that this helps your argument that "Anyways, Vitiate can forge telepathic links with his targets. After doing this, he can know all about them"?
My point is that he was capable of probing the minds of his targets. Very simple.

S_W_LeGenD
Supporting evidence:

"It's true," Revan assured her. "When the Emperor broke my will, he looked into my mind, and I was able to see the reflection of his own evil." (Source: SWTOR - Revan)

Rogue Gladiator

Arhael
You just ended this debate with your answer. In this contest, Luke is alone. Do the math now. I am talking not about unexperienced Luke from dark empire who still had much to learn. Nevertheless, he defeated Palpatine after learning his lesson and understood his mistakes.
Post DE Luke had much more trials, which made him much stronger mentality. He was immune to Abeloth who is beyond Vitiate in every way, the math works pretty well.


I grasped enough to understand that it wasn't "mind-dominating 4 Jedi simultaneously in combat". He incapacitated them and then did whatever rituals and sessions were required.

So was Palpatine, so was Nyax, so was Lomi Plo, so is Abeloth and many others that were beyond of what feats normal Sith could perform including Vitiate. And I am not talking just about Luke, there are other Jedi that would be capable mind resisting your Vitiate.

Which is not only wrong but hilarious.

He was. He tried to win using darkside, which is against all his believes and morals. It is called broken as you can't fight properly, when there is mess in your head.

Luke lost his confidence the day he met him. Otherwise he would fight him instead of submitting to apprenticeship.

My grasp is perfectly adequate. Thul telepathically attacked him using overwhelming power given by millions of killiks. Didn't work. Then he mustered same overwhelming power to Force push Luke(Or Force blast in its raw form as you prefer to call it). Didn't work. Then he tried engaging in combat. Didn't work. You are trying arguing with me about things that you don't know. And Luke did not overpower him, please, don't use this word like that on Luke.

Jedi absolutely necessary restrict themselves from darkside powers, they sometimes loose control but is another matter.
Power nature is determined by emotions. Force lightning is darkside power because it is mustered by channeling anger. Electric Judgment is not darkside power as it is not created by negative emotions and nowhere it is described as darkside power. Jedi restrict themselves from anger, hence, whatever they produce is lightside based.

rock


Fine, if you think so. wink

When?

Scourge was coward and scared. Yes, he would speak, which would only prove his weak will, lack of confidence and cowardice submission but it would never be the same for Jedi.

The argument will finish with everyone left with their own opinions as it was right at the beginning. No general SW book fun will follow your game based delusions.

Which only proves that he was able to do it only after mind dominating Revan. After capturing Revan again, he couldn't break his will and had no clue about what was happening in republic. Moreover, Vitiate got influenced himself. Such an embarrassment for "all powerful abomination".

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Arhael
I am talking not about unexperienced Luke from dark empire who still had much to learn. Nevertheless, he defeated Palpatine after learning his lesson and understood his mistakes.
Post DE Luke had much more trials, which made him much stronger mentality. He was immune to Abeloth who is beyond Vitiate in every way, the math works pretty well.
Yes, I accept that Luke would be challenging to dominate mentally but is it impossible? Vitiate has element of surprise in this aspect.

Also, we have been though the Abeloth part already. Don't bring it up again and again.

Originally posted by Arhael
I grasped enough to understand that it wasn't "mind-dominating 4 Jedi simultaneously in combat". He incapacitated them and then did whatever rituals and sessions were required.
You need to support you arguments with evidence.

Originally posted by Arhael
So was Palpatine, so was Nyax, so was Lomi Plo, so is Abeloth and many others that were beyond of what feats normal Sith could perform including Vitiate. And I am not talking just about Luke, there are other Jedi that would be capable mind resisting your Vitiate.
That is a bold claim, genius. Vitiate would have destroyed the entire Galaxy, if given a chance. He was such an abomination that even Sith began to resent him.

Originally posted by Arhael
Which is not only wrong but hilarious.
She doesn't know those powers?

Originally posted by Arhael
He was. He tried to win using darkside, which is against all his believes and morals. It is called broken as you can't fight properly, when there is mess in your head.
Your understanding is messed-up. When Luke embraced the dark side, he was no longer a pure Jedi. He went against his beliefs. One doesn't get broke by embracing the dark side. Look up in the canonical sources, if you cannot understand my point.

Originally posted by Arhael
Luke lost his confidence the day he met him. Otherwise he would fight him instead of submitting to apprenticeship.
Again, your understanding is messed-up. Luke embraced the dark side with his own will. He wanted to learn about Palpatine. He did not loose his confidence until he was subdued in a duel.

Originally posted by Arhael
My grasp is perfectly adequate. Thul telepathically attacked him using overwhelming power given by millions of killiks. Didn't work. Then he mustered same overwhelming power to Force push Luke(Or Force blast in its raw form as you prefer to call it). Didn't work. Then he tried engaging in combat. Didn't work. You are trying arguing with me about things that you don't know. And Luke did not overpower him, please, don't use this word like that on Luke.
You need to support you arguments with evidence.

Originally posted by Arhael
Jedi absolutely necessary restrict themselves from darkside powers, they sometimes loose control but is another matter.
Power nature is determined by emotions. Force lightning is darkside power because it is mustered by channeling anger. Electric Judgment is not darkside power as it is not created by negative emotions and nowhere it is described as darkside power. Jedi restrict themselves from anger, hence, whatever they produce is lightside based.
Yes. However, your original claim that Jedi don't use Dun Moch is flawed. Jedi do use Dun Moch (often dubbed as inverse Dun Moch).

Originally posted by Arhael
rock
It validates my point.


Originally posted by Arhael
Fine, if you think so. wink
It is valid point. Concede.

Originally posted by Arhael
When?
Provided evidence already. Look it up.

Originally posted by Arhael
Scourge was coward and scared. Yes, he would speak, which would only prove his weak will, lack of confidence and cowardice submission but it would never be the same for Jedi.
Cowardice is not a valid argument. He wasn't immune to Force powers. Simple.

Originally posted by Arhael
The argument will finish with everyone left with their own opinions as it was right at the beginning. No general SW book fun will follow your game based delusions.
Their are no delusions. Only delusion is that fans of Luke consider him to be invincible.

Originally posted by Arhael
Which only proves that he was able to do it only after mind dominating Revan. After capturing Revan again, he couldn't break his will and had no clue about what was happening in republic. Moreover, Vitiate got influenced himself. Such an embarrassment for "all powerful abomination".
Don't underestimate Revan. It is not necessary that what Revan accomplished - others can do so too. These events show the dynamic nature of Star Wars. Luke' fans fail to understand this and rely on static set of assumptions. Does not works with me.

Arhael
Yes, I accept that Luke would be challenging to dominate mentally but is it impossible? Vitiate has element of surprise in this aspect. Yes, it is impossible because he is Jedi. Vitiate has no element of surprise. Meaningless walking darkside nexus like many others Luke already encountered including Palpatine and Abeloth.

I will bring aeloth part as much as needed as she is beyond your Vititate in every way. She proved that she can mind dominate by invading Grand Lord dream. She was not just mind dominating, she was consuming essences and she couldn't consume Luke, though she was in physical contact with him more than ones.


You support me with evidence that they were mind dominated in combat simultaneously.


Over hyping. If it was that easy, he would start by dominating Sith minds, then unanimously perform ritual on each Republic planet. But that would demonstrate his Sith sorcery skills, not his immense power.
Abeloth was such an abomination that Jedi and Sith allied together. Killiks stated that end of the galaxy is coming.

Yes, she deosn't have those power and unlikely will. Battle meditation in Revan time was demonstrated only by Bastilla. In Luke's time only by Jacen. Mind meld, which was invented much later, than DE was allowing Jedi to work perfectly as team but was not empowering Jedi in any way. Luke was the only person to demonstrate it by empowering Jaina. Moreover, Lea at DE time had struggles to lift even small objects. During Luke's combat with Palpatine she was described both in comics and audio book as seeing light and dark confronting each other, there was not a single mention about her empowering him in any way. You made that up entirely. And even, if she could empower him, are you saying that it would be enough to overpower Palpatine? Impossible, because Palpatine's power was more, than both twins together. And more important is that Luke won not by overpowering but by winning combat, so power is irrelevant.

You are messed up. One does get broke by embracing darkside. Revan got mind dominated because of being exposed to darkside on first place.


Nope, you are messing up. He wanted to learn darkside to understand how to defeat it, not embracing it. And he chose that pass because he wasn't confident in himself. By accepting lessons from Emperor he got consumed by darkside.



My evidence is darknest book 3. It is available for you to open and read.


Agree but not in case with Thul.


What exactly it validates? Did Naryss got weaker from that? She gave lightning powerful enough to kill her.



It validates nothing. It was just a useless statement I started making fun on.



"When the Emperor broke my will, he looked into my mind". He needs to break will first. He couldn't read Revan's mind for 300 years. Which by default means he would know nothing about Luke during fight.


Cowardice is the most valid point. When I was coward, I was getting punched in face and humiliated. When I got brave, I kicked asses of the very same bullies. Same principle in star wars. Lomi Plo was kicking Luke's ass the whole trilogy until the end. She was invisible to him. She was constantly draining life from him making him weaker. One time she exposed his fear for Mara and Jacen's lives and made him freeze in one place(and this is not exaggeration). But then he got read of his doubts, restored confidence, had not fear and Lomi is suddenly visible and later in four pieces.


I have no delusions about Luke being invincible as he lost plenty of fights to much weaker foes both in skill and in power. However, you have delusion that your Vitiate will be able to mind dominate someone of Luke's caliber, which means that he could mind dominate anyone. He was fighting Jedi Knight 1x1. Why didn't he mind dominate him then?


Stop saying underestimate. I am not underestimating anyone. But at the same time I not gonna give a single more credit to Revan, then to Luke, Yoda, Exile, Jedi Knight or any other powerful individuals with strong will. And most important I won't accept your opinion of Vitiate being able to mess up mind of anyone, especially, when he ended up having his mind messed up.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Arhael
Yes, it is impossible because he is Jedi. Vitiate has no element of surprise.
So being a Jedi makes an individual immune to mental influence? Is this why Vitiate managed to mind-dominate many Jedi? roll eyes (sarcastic)

Originally posted by Arhael
I will bring aeloth part as much as needed as she is beyond your Vititate in every way. She proved that she can mind dominate by invading Grand Lord dream. She was not just mind dominating, she was consuming essences and she couldn't consume Luke, though she was in physical contact with him more than ones.
Don't confuse story arc with lack of capability. Now since you want to consider Abeloth for this debate - I have a question for you. Please do answer.

When did Abeloth attempted to dominate the mind of Luke?

Originally posted by Arhael
You support me with evidence that they were mind dominated in combat simultaneously.
No problem.

This;

"You are mine. Servants. Slaves. Weapons. And you will obey... (Vitiate to the Jedi Strike Team after defeating it)

First;

bq5X3F3g69c

Afterwards;

PrxU-vp3IyY

"The Emperor clouded your mind in darkness. Made you do terrible things. You've been the Emperor's pawn a long time." (Jedi Master to main hero - while helping him break free)

Same was the situation with the other 3 Jedi Masters who fell along side the main hero. Vitiate while bombarding the Jedi with Force Lightning Storm, also broke their will simultaneously and turned them in to his mental slaves.

Here;

vq2BuvgaV2g

For example:

"This isn't you Warren. The Emperor is controlling you." (Main hero to Warren Sedoru)

Another example:

85cAgWgOVrM

The Emperor broke you, Master Braga (Main hero to Tol Braga)

You can see how strong Tol Braga is. Four of these Jedi stood no chance against Vitiate when he bombarded them with his powers.

--------------------------------

"The Emperor has the ability to dominate and enslave the minds of those who serve him," she explained. "It's one of the reasons he has ruled for so long. Those that are transformed become fanatical zealots who live to serve; they are not capable of betraying him." She glanced back at the door behind which they had left the Jedi. "I suspect that instead of executing Revan as he publicly proclaimed, the Emperor turned him into a puppet of his will and sent him back to the Republic to gather information." (Source: SWTOR - Revan)

Now you understand that how Vitiate lasted so long? His telepathic powers were immense.

Get the picture now?

Originally posted by Arhael
Over hyping. If it was that easy, he would start by dominating Sith minds, then unanimously perform ritual on each Republic planet. But that would demonstrate his Sith sorcery skills, not his immense power.
Abeloth was such an abomination that Jedi and Sith allied together. Killiks stated that end of the galaxy is coming.
The second video above reveals the true nature of Vitiate. He is planning to repeat Nathema again and again.

"Nathema was just the beginning," Scourge agreed. "He will destroy world after world, his power and madness growing in concert until he alone is left, Emperor over an empty and lifeless galaxy." (Source: SWTOR - Revan)

These rituals were significantly boosting Vitiate' personal power. You cannot get more twisted then this.

Originally posted by Arhael
Yes, she deosn't have those power and unlikely will. Battle meditation in Revan time was demonstrated only by Bastilla. In Luke's time only by Jacen. Mind meld, which was invented much later, than DE was allowing Jedi to work perfectly as team but was not empowering Jedi in any way. Luke was the only person to demonstrate it by empowering Jaina. Moreover, Lea at DE time had struggles to lift even small objects. During Luke's combat with Palpatine she was described both in comics and audio book as seeing light and dark confronting each other, there was not a single mention about her empowering him in any way. You made that up entirely. And even, if she could empower him, are you saying that it would be enough to overpower Palpatine? Impossible, because Palpatine's power was more, than both twins together. And more important is that Luke won not by overpowering but by winning combat, so power is irrelevant.
Then how is Leia performing Force Harmony with Luke?

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/c/c3/Force-harmony.jpg

And how is Leia performing Battle Meditation?

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110508193554/starwars/images/8/88/LeiaBM.jpg

Originally posted by Arhael
You are messed up. One does get broke by embracing darkside.
Really?

By your logic, all Sith are broke because they embrace the dark side.

Originally posted by Arhael
Revan got mind dominated because of being exposed to darkside on first place.
Correction: Vitiate broke Revan. Dark side did not broke Revan.

Originally posted by Arhael
Nope, you are messing up. He wanted to learn darkside to understand how to defeat it, not embracing it. And he chose that pass because he wasn't confident in himself. By accepting lessons from Emperor he got consumed by darkside.
Actually the return of Palpatine stunned Luke. He understood that he could not challenge and defeat Palpatine by himself. Therefore, he decided to join the Sith and plot from within.

This;

No longer the impulsive youth at war with his own anger, Luke Skywalker faced a moment of great decision. He believed he had to use the Emperor's own knowledge of the dark side against him. (Source: The Essential Chronology)

Luke did embrace the dark side willingly;

Skywalker told her that his destiny had led him to the dark side, which he felt was the only path to save the Galaxy. (Source: The Essential Chronology)

And Luke was not broke. He was confident until he fought Palpatine directly.

Originally posted by Arhael
My evidence is darknest book 3. It is available for you to open and read.
Yes. I have rechecked it.

Actually Luke had past history with Unu'Thul and his family. This made it possible for him to counter the attempts of Unu'Thul to manipulate him. Each time Unu'Thul attempted to enforce his will on Luke, the Jedi made him realize about his past history with him, and Unu'Thul stopped.

Finally, when Luke and Unu'Thul met in person, they resorted to taunts.

In the start;

"It's not too late to surrender." Luke started forward at a walk.

"I'm not eager to do this."

Raynar's burn-scarred lips twitched in a faint hint of a smile. "We are."

Raynar raised his lightsaber and jumped onto the carnage heap.

Later on;

"Your days as UnuThul are done, Raynar. It's time to surrender and come home." (Luke to Unu'Thul during combat)

During the actual combat, their was no telepathic bombardment from Unu'Thul. In the end, Luke overpowered Unu'Thul and forced his will upon the latter through inverse Dun Moch.

Originally posted by Arhael
Agree but not in case with Thul.
Covered above.

Originally posted by Arhael
What exactly it validates? Did Naryss got weaker from that? She gave lightning powerful enough to kill her.
Recheck my original point:

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Their are several techniques to influence the mind of the opponent. Some are more effective then others.

And if you are talking about Nyriss, then she got owned after Revan used her own power against her.

Originally posted by Arhael
It validates nothing. It was just a useless statement I started making fun on.
Useless rant.

Originally posted by Arhael
He needs to break will first. He couldn't read Revan's mind for 300 years. Which by default means he would know nothing about Luke during fight.
Vitiate got all the answers he needed with passage of time. However, this happened very slowly because Revan put up incredible resistance. Revan' sources of strength were Meetra Surik and memories of his family.

And you cannot compare the situation of Luke with that of Revan. The latter has history with Vitiate but Luke does not.

More? You can again consider the example of Unu'Thul. Luke had history with Unu'Thul and this made it possible for him to resist attempts to dominate his will by the latter. Understand now?

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Arhael
Cowardice is the most valid point. When I was coward, I was getting punched in face and humiliated. When I got brave, I kicked asses of the very same bullies. Same principle in star wars. Lomi Plo was kicking Luke's ass the whole trilogy until the end. She was invisible to him. She was constantly draining life from him making him weaker. One time she exposed his fear for Mara and Jacen's lives and made him freeze in one place(and this is not exaggeration). But then he got read of his doubts, restored confidence, had not fear and Lomi is suddenly visible and later in four pieces.
You cannot use real life example to support your argument for Star Wars. In real life, you were not contending with any telepathic powers and neither your opponents were capable of dominating your mind with such powers. Silly analogy from you.

As far as example of Luke is concerned; it is interesting. Yes, self-control gives you focus and mental stability. However, Lomi Plo is no Vitiate when it comes to manipulating individuals. Once again, where is the telepathic bombardment?

Originally posted by Arhael
I have no delusions about Luke being invincible as he lost plenty of fights to much weaker foes both in skill and in power. However, you have delusion that your Vitiate will be able to mind dominate someone of Luke's caliber, which means that he could mind dominate anyone. He was fighting Jedi Knight 1x1. Why didn't he mind dominate him then?
You are having delusions. I have supported most of my assertions with evidence. Time for you to concede and move on. Vitiate did broke the main hero during first encounter. However, the main hero managed to break free from his influence through external help. Luke does not have this luxury in this fight. Sorry.

Originally posted by Arhael
Stop saying underestimate. I am not underestimating anyone. But at the same time I not gonna give a single more credit to Revan, then to Luke, Yoda, Exile, Jedi Knight or any other powerful individuals with strong will. And most important I won't accept your opinion of Vitiate being able to mess up mind of anyone, especially, when he ended up having his mind messed up.
Vitiate ended up with his mind messed up? Is this a joke? Dude, Vitiate invaded the Republic and also put his personal plans in motion in the background. Are you really following the story of SWTOR?

Also, it is not necessary for Luke to be exceptionally good in every aspect of life and Force. Enough with the unnecessary hype of Luke. Every character has strengths and weaknesses.

My assessment is that Vitiate can defeat Luke. However, for Luke to defeat Vitiate, he has to gain knowledge about him. Knowledge is power.

Arhael
So being a Jedi makes an individual immune to mental influence? Is this why Vitiate managed to mind-dominate many Jedi? roll eyes (sarcastic) No, but pure Jedi had much better chance to resist, than Sith. General Sith are selfish and fear more powerful oponents. If they fear, Vitiate can easily expose it. They simply wouldn't dare to confront him. Although, they could but they confront only, when they know that they are more powerful. Sith like Palpatine, Malgus, Bane .e.g are as exceptional as Vititate. While Scourge is a typical example of general Sith, who always measure strength of oponent and, if oponent is more powerful, he simply piece his pants and surrender.



Don't confuse lack of "display" of capabilities with lack of those capabilities in general.

Lake of Apparitions. It was dream, so it was on mental level. She attempted to consume his spirit and he was strong enough to break from it. Apart from that Luke touched her mind like Scourge and, frankly, didn't start crouching and convulsing on the floor like Scourge.
I assume you expect book to describe Luke straggling to resist "telepathic bombardment", well, apparently he didn't have to struggle.



Exactly, AFTER. It is much easier to mind dominate unconscious person with their mental guard down. And you can't know, if he started mind dominating at that point or not. It could be just words, which they likely are.

AHAHAHAHA rolling on floor laughing And you dare to say I am over hyping? How could you possibly know that? Simultaneously Force lightning, breaking will and mind domination? Happy Dance
You proved nothing and only made me laugh ones more.

This statement is about non-Force users in general. Sith council for instance wasn't under his spell. although, some of them could.

Ye, I get the picture of your fanaticism for Vitiate.

Twisted on what? He performed such ritual ones and never did it again over millennia. Why not to consume another 4-5 remote planets then, if it would help him so much?

It is not battle meditation, it is sensing through the Force.

By my logic Luke didn't have experience to use his anger and darkside in general to defeat Palpatine, he only exposed himself to Palpatine's mind influence and got his mind twisted very same way as Anakin. It is proved by Luke loosing duel first fight and winning second.

Vitiate broke Revan because of all dark emotions Revan had in him. When Jedi gets close to darkside, it is his most vulnerable point in life as strength coming from Jedi teachings weakens and a lot of effort is spend on controlling dark emotions instead of using them to gain strength.

Ok, agree. But Sith from Luke is same embarrassment as from Anakin.

Confidence of Sith apprentice...




"as Luke felt it, it began to press down inside, urging him to turn back." - mental pressure. If Luke was weak minded, he would simply turn and go.

"His murky presence wrenched free, and the heaviness vanished from inside Luke's chest." - it means that Luke was mentally pressured all along.

Very same analogy is evidenced in star wars, silly of you to not see that.

Lomi Plo was master of manipulating individuals in her own way. You need to see telepathic bombardment in everything?
Where is telepathic bombardment in Jedi Knight vs Vitiate? Why did Vitiate preferred your favorite Dun Moch instead?

The whole TOR happened 300 years later because of Revan. So, yes, Vitiate did get his mind messed up, confirmed by Revan personally. Republic and Sith made piece agreement, how sane is that for a Sith? xD

Yes, Luke wasn't good at everything. He couldn't defend against Force lightning with bare hands . wink I am not over hyping Luke and can name plenty of other Jedi that would be capable do defend against mind domination.

Luke has knowledge about Palpatine, while Palpatine gained knowledge about Vitiate. Moreover Luke has his own knowledge Vitiate doesn't have, so it can be other way around as well.
And what exactly new is there about Vitiate, that Luke never faced?

Arhael
Apologies for broken quotes.

Nephthys
Yeah you should be douchebage. >:C

Arhael
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah you should be douchebage. >:C
No, I will never turn to the douchebaging! angel

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Arhael
No, but pure Jedi had much better chance to resist, than Sith. General Sith are selfish and fear more powerful oponents. If they fear, Vitiate can easily expose it. They simply wouldn't dare to confront him. Although, they could but they confront only, when they know that they are more powerful. Sith like Palpatine, Malgus, Bane .e.g are as exceptional as Vititate. While Scourge is a typical example of general Sith, who always measure strength of oponent and, if oponent is more powerful, he simply piece his pants and surrender.
You are backtracking from your actual point now. You claimed that it is impossible to mind-dominate a Jedi and now you are saying that a Jedi have good chance to resist. Do me a favor, make up your mind first.

Originally posted by Arhael
Don't confuse lack of "display" of capabilities with lack of those capabilities in general.
Lame argument. Try better.

Originally posted by Arhael
Lake of Apparitions. It was dream, so it was on mental level. She attempted to consume his spirit and he was strong enough to break from it. Apart from that Luke touched her mind like Scourge and, frankly, didn't start crouching and convulsing on the floor like Scourge.
I assume you expect book to describe Luke straggling to resist "telepathic bombardment", well, apparently he didn't have to struggle.
Interesting. Provide details.

Originally posted by Arhael
Exactly, AFTER. It is much easier to mind dominate unconscious person with their mental guard down. And you can't know, if he started mind dominating at that point or not. It could be just words, which they likely are.
This is your personal opinion! Not an established fact. My understanding is that Vitiate broke them first. His statement seems to indicate so. Otherwise, he may have said that 'now I am going to turn you all in to my servants' or something on similar lines.

Originally posted by Arhael
AHAHAHAHA rolling on floor laughing And you dare to say I am over hyping? How could you possibly know that? Simultaneously Force lightning, breaking will and mind domination? Happy Dance
You proved nothing and only made me laugh ones more.
Are you a kid? You can't see telepathic powers in action.

Originally posted by Arhael
This statement is about non-Force users in general.
Not necessarily. Those who serve him - is the point here. Not normal beings. Nyriss then proceeded to give the example of Revan to support her point. Is English so hard for you to understand?

Originally posted by Arhael
Ye, I get the picture of your fanaticism for Vitiate.
He is not my favorite. Your claim has no merit.

Originally posted by Arhael
Twisted on what? He performed such ritual ones and never did it again over millennia. Why not to consume another 4-5 remote planets then, if it would help him so much?
Because he did not wanted to reveal his true nature to his followers. Remember that Nathema was forbidden to visit? However, he was going to repeat Nathema once his plans were set in motion during KoTOR period.

Originally posted by Arhael
It is not battle meditation, it is sensing through the Force.
Wookieepedia disagrees.

Originally posted by Arhael
By my logic Luke didn't have experience to use his anger and darkside in general to defeat Palpatine, he only exposed himself to Palpatine's mind influence and got his mind twisted very same way as Anakin. It is proved by Luke loosing duel first fight and winning second.
No, by your logic every Sith should be broke by embracing the dark side. Once again, make up your mind.

Originally posted by Arhael
Vitiate broke Revan because of all dark emotions Revan had in him. When Jedi gets close to darkside, it is his most vulnerable point in life as strength coming from Jedi teachings weakens and a lot of effort is spend on controlling dark emotions instead of using them to gain strength.
Revan is just one case and you cannot use this example to generalize about the whole matter. Those 4 Jedi who fell to him centuries later were not close to the dark side.

Originally posted by Arhael
Ok, agree. But Sith from Luke is same embarrassment as from Anakin.
Good.

Originally posted by Arhael
Confidence of Sith apprentice...
Elaborate please. Luke wasn't scared.

Originally posted by Arhael
"as Luke felt it, it began to press down inside, urging him to turn back." - mental pressure. If Luke was weak minded, he would simply turn and go.

"His murky presence wrenched free, and the heaviness vanished from inside Luke's chest." - it means that Luke was mentally pressured all along.
Don't play tricks with me amateur. Luke did not resisted Unu'Thul. He just put his history in front of him in response and Unu'Thul stopped in his tracks.

Originally posted by Arhael
Very same analogy is evidenced in star wars, silly of you to not see that.
No, it is not. Do those bullies have telepathic powers?

Originally posted by Arhael
Lomi Plo was master of manipulating individuals in her own way. You need to see telepathic bombardment in everything?
Vitiate can bombard his opponents with his telepathic powers. This is the difference. His powers work like weapons of combat.

Originally posted by Arhael
Where is telepathic bombardment in Jedi Knight vs Vitiate? Why did Vitiate preferred your favorite Dun Moch instead?
You can't see telepathic powers in action. They don't have colors. However, statements of several individuals who interacted with the Jedi Knight and his own actions as a pawn of Vitiate for a long time - are sufficient evidences.

Originally posted by Arhael
The whole TOR happened 300 years later because of Revan. So, yes, Vitiate did get his mind messed up, confirmed by Revan personally. Republic and Sith made piece agreement, how sane is that for a Sith? xD
No, Revan succeeded in delaying the inevitable. He was certainly adept in the arts of manipulation - this I give to him. However, Vitiate could not be dissuaded from his plans and neither he was mentally dominated. He engaged Revan for long because he wanted to learn as much about the Republic as possible before he would make his move. He did not intended to repeat the mistake of the Great Hyperspace War. He was playing safe like any intelligent leader would.

In addition, the peace agreement was a ruse. The sacking of Coruscant happened during the time of negotiations. The Sith Empire lost Aldeeran but it took Coruscant to gain leverage during the negotiations.

Originally posted by Arhael
Yes, Luke wasn't good at everything. He couldn't defend against Force lightning with bare hands . wink
Plus point for Vitiate.

Originally posted by Arhael
I am not over hyping Luke and can name plenty of other Jedi that would be capable do defend against mind domination.
None of them stand a chance 'on their own' against masters of manipulation.

Originally posted by Arhael
Luke has knowledge about Palpatine, while Palpatine gained knowledge about Vitiate. Moreover Luke has his own knowledge Vitiate doesn't have, so it can be other way around as well.
And what exactly new is there about Vitiate, that Luke never faced?
Having knowledge about Palpatine is not enough. In addition, Vitiate has incredible experience under his belt for understanding Jedi.

Nephthys
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is your personal opinion! Not an established fact. My understanding is that Vitiate broke them first. His statement seems to indicate so. Otherwise, he may have said that 'now I am going to turn you all in to my servants' or something on similar lines.


Are you a kid? You can't see telepathic powers in action.

In other words you can't prove that he telepathically dominated them in that scene. His statement doesn't imply that he did even a fraction of how much you want it to. As in it doesn't imply that at all.

I get what you're saying with the ambiguousness of the scene but you have to understand that it works both ways. You think that he did telepathically assault them in that scene? Well prove it. Because your personal opinion means bupkis in a versus thread unless you can support it with evidence.

RE: Blaxican
bupkis?

Nephthys
Its a word.

RE: Blaxican
What?

Nephthys
Its how you say 'it means all of jack ****ing shit', without going over a PG-13 rating.

Seriously, google it.

RE: Blaxican
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
What?

Nephthys
I said '**** you Blax'.

RE: Blaxican
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
What?

Nephthys
I SAID **** YOU BLAX!

****ing hell, get some glasses or something you *******.

RE: Blaxican
oh.



.. what?

Stealth Moose
Wow. Andropause?

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Nephthys
In other words you can't prove that he telepathically dominated them in that scene. His statement doesn't imply that he did even a fraction of how much you want it to. As in it doesn't imply that at all.

I get what you're saying with the ambiguousness of the scene but you have to understand that it works both ways. You think that he did telepathically assault them in that scene? Well prove it. Because your personal opinion means bupkis in a versus thread unless you can support it with evidence.
It's a bupkis?

http://www.greatfunnypictures.com/pictures/27_bang.jpg

Somebody help me please. confused

Nephthys
God damn it.


Just google it:

Noun

bupkis (uncountable)

absolutely nothing; nothing of value, significance, or substance

We searched for hours and found bupkis.


Without proof your opinion means nothing.

S_W_LeGenD
I hate you. sad

Nephthys
http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lbwrbhmlNw1qdmky3o1_500.jpg

Our furious hatemaking will be glorious.

S_W_LeGenD
Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen. sad

Arhael
You are backtracking from your actual point now. You claimed that it is impossible to mind-dominate a Jedi and now you are saying that a Jedi have good chance to resist. Do me a favor, make up your mind first. I am not backtracking. I never said "a" Jedi. I said about Jedi who are purely on lightside. In other words Jedi that overcame all their demons long ago, in other words Jedi like Luke, Yoda, Exile, Windu e.g.



You try better in convincing me that Vitiate is better, than her at least in anything. Entire fleet of Gavar Kai fell under her influence and took her side. She just broke away from imprisonment and by Apocalypse is already in charge of all Sith and is Galactic Alliance Chief of State. While your Vitiate was thinking over millenia and started war he could never win.

I am not wasting hours for digging through electronic book on my mobile phone.



How can you talk about my personal opinion if all your conclusions are based entirely on your opinion?
The only evidence video provides is that he used Force lightning to defeat them, that's it.



Exactly, I can't see but somehow you can see, since you said: "Vitiate while bombarding the Jedi with Force Lightning Storm, also broke their will simultaneously and turned them in to his mental slaves."

There are plenty of planets he could do the same thing to and than forbid to visit. Fact: Nathema was the only planet consumed and he never tried to repeat it even after his plans were set in motion.

It is evidenced neither in comics nor in audio book.


Are you gonna tell me what my logic is? And yes, people like Luke and Anakin should be broke to embrace darkside as they are good personalities by nature and as Sith they would never be as powerful as Palpatine because the good in them cannot be eradicated completely.


Yes, they weren't close to darkside, that is why he had to defeat them with Force lightning, so he could dominate them later with their mental guard down.

What else to elaborate on? Trying to win using darkside, when your experience in it is measured by days is just stupid.

Which only shows how good Luke is. Tricks? You are trying to strip Luke of all his achievements by giving lame excuses, while at the same time trying to equal Vitiate to god by giving even more lame arguments.

They had more strength(more power) wink.

Really? That's why he use Force lightning against 4 Jedi instead of his telepathic bombardment? That is why later against Jedi Knight he used, Force lightning, Force illusions and then again Force lightning and Dun Moch through whole scenario?

Yes, I can't see. What I saw is that non of them got mind dominated during combat.


Like I was saying Revan mind dominated Vitiate. You arguing nothing.

Nope. Luke is comfortable at absorbing lightning with lightsaber. Even without lightsaber a nightsister attempted to electrocute him but he started jumping around and lightning harmlessly dissipated.

Which is your opinion only. All of them stand a chance against master of manipulations as did Revan and Jedi Knight.

Palpatine had much greater understanding of Jedi as he infiltrated Goverment and was communicating with Jedi on regular basis, while your Vitiate spent whole millenia hiding on remote planet using advantage of being imbued by darkside nexus surrounding him.

All Luke needs to know is that Vitiate must be stopped. Darkside is darkside in any form, whether it is Sith or Abeloth or monkey lizard.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Arhael
I am not backtracking. I never said "a" Jedi. I said about Jedi who are purely on lightside. In other words Jedi that overcame all their demons long ago, in other words Jedi like Luke, Yoda, Exile, Windu e.g.
It might not be possible to manipulate a pure Jedi but my focus is on telepathic powers.

Tol Braga (SWTOR) was also an ideal Jedi. He was a role model for the whole Order, as apparent from his codex entry:

Respectfully referred to as "the conscience of the Jedi Order," Master Tol Braga is a thoughtful scholar, a wise strategist and an avowed pacifist. His greatest achievement as a Jedi to date was when he dueled Sith Lord Darth Sajar to a draw--and then convinced the enemy to abandon the path of darkness and train as a Jedi.

Vitiate broke even this kind of Jedi who was so deep in the Light Side, and more notably a powerful one.

Do the math now.

Originally posted by Arhael
You try better in convincing me that Vitiate is better, than her at least in anything. Entire fleet of Gavar Kai fell under her influence and took her side. She just broke away from imprisonment and by Apocalypse is already in charge of all Sith and is Galactic Alliance Chief of State. While your Vitiate was thinking over millenia and started war he could never win.
Vitiate isn't much different from Abeloth in capabilities. Like her, Vitiate is capable of creating illusions, transfer his essense, unleash blasts of energy, drain his opponents, and mentally influence his opponents.

However, Vitiate also has demonstrated the capability to unleash extremely lethal blasts of Force Lightning. I have not seen this from Abeloth yet. If I am missing any update then let me know.

Originally posted by Arhael
I am not wasting hours for digging through electronic book on my mobile phone.
Then what is point for this debate?

Originally posted by Arhael
How can you talk about my personal opinion if all your conclusions are based entirely on your opinion?
The only evidence video provides is that he used Force lightning to defeat them, that's it.
I have explained why. Simple explanation is that you cannot see telepathic powers in action. They don't have colors. You judge their impact on the basis of comments of the characters. I have provided examples. Focus on them.

Originally posted by Arhael
Exactly, I can't see but somehow you can see, since you said: "Vitiate while bombarding the Jedi with Force Lightning Storm, also broke their will simultaneously and turned them in to his mental slaves."
The comments of several characters support my point. Vitiate broke those Jedi and controlled them through his telepathic powers for a long time. If videos (provided by me) are not sufficient to convince you then consult Drew Karpyshyn in this regard.

Originally posted by Arhael
There are plenty of planets he could do the same thing to and than forbid to visit. Fact: Nathema was the only planet consumed and he never tried to repeat it even after his plans were set in motion.
Repeat of Nathema like event again and again would not have gone unnoticed for a long time. Nathema itself did not remained unnoticed. After the great hyperspace war, Vitiate was not willing to seek confrontation with the Jedi anytime soon. However, during the Great Galactic War, Vitiate was planning to conduct a Nathema like feat on Belsavis to gain more power.

Originally posted by Arhael
It is evidenced neither in comics nor in audio book.
Really?

LEIA: "I don't need a blaster. Not with what I've just learned about Jedi Battle Meditation." (Source: The Empire's End)

Originally posted by Arhael
Are you gonna tell me what my logic is? And yes, people like Luke and Anakin should be broke to embrace darkside as they are good personalities by nature and as Sith they would never be as powerful as Palpatine because the good in them cannot be eradicated completely.
Then try to explain your point better like you did now.

Your point is not valid for all; a good example is Exar Kun.

Their are similar examples of other individuals who were once Jedi but became more powerful and also accomplished more after embracing the dark side.

Originally posted by Arhael
Yes, they weren't close to darkside, that is why he had to defeat them with Force lightning, so he could dominate them later with their mental guard down.
You don't know this for sure.

Originally posted by Arhael
What else to elaborate on? Trying to win using darkside, when your experience in it is measured by days is just stupid.
Your point is good but my point is that Luke wasn't broke prior to confrontation with Sidious. He was confident.

Originally posted by Arhael
Which only shows how good Luke is. Tricks? You are trying to strip Luke of all his achievements by giving lame excuses, while at the same time trying to equal Vitiate to god by giving even more lame arguments.
No, it is a bad example for you to consider in this debate. Luke' past history with UnuThul is the key point here. But Luke has no history with Vitiate. How will Luke convince Vitiate to stop? He can't.

Originally posted by Arhael
They had more strength(more power) wink.
Not a good argument. I am talking about telepathic powers.

Originally posted by Arhael
Really? That's why he use Force lightning against 4 Jedi instead of his telepathic bombardment? That is why later against Jedi Knight he used, Force lightning, Force illusions and then again Force lightning and Dun Moch through whole scenario?
You can't pass your assumption regarding the confrontation with the Jedi Strike Team as a fact. Prove it first.

What Vitiate did during his second confrontation with the Jedi Knight is invalid example as well. Vitiate' second confrontation with Revan reveals that he can again attempt to dominate his opponent with his telepathic powers.

Originally posted by Arhael
Yes, I can't see. What I saw is that non of them got mind dominated during combat.
Your assumption. Not an established fact.

Originally posted by Arhael
Like I was saying Revan mind dominated Vitiate. You arguing nothing.
It was not mind-domination. Revan was not controlling Vitiate. Howeverm Revan did manipulate Vitiate but the latter eventually overcame him after a long struggle. And for your kind information, Revan' case is not applicable for Luke.

Originally posted by Arhael
Nope. Luke is comfortable at absorbing lightning with lightsaber. Even without lightsaber a nightsister attempted to electrocute him but he started jumping around and lightning harmlessly dissipated.
A nightsister matches the power of Vitiate? This is not even funny. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Originally posted by Arhael
Which is your opinion only. All of them stand a chance against master of manipulations as did Revan and Jedi Knight.
Prove it. Revan and the Jedi Knight themselves fell to Vitiate. They succeeded in breaking from Vitiate' grasp through external help.

Originally posted by Arhael
Palpatine had much greater understanding of Jedi as he infiltrated Goverment and was communicating with Jedi on regular basis, while your Vitiate spent whole millenia hiding on remote planet using advantage of being imbued by darkside nexus surrounding him.
Here is a hint for you; children of the Emperor. These individuals served as the eyes and ears of Vitiate. The Emperor used these individuals to learn a great deal about the Republic and also the Jedi.

Originally posted by Arhael
All Luke needs to know is that Vitiate must be stopped. Darkside is darkside in any form, whether it is Sith or Abeloth or monkey lizard.
Stopping Vitiate is the hard part though.

Arhael
It might not be possible to manipulate a pure Jedi but my focus is on telepathic powers.

Tol Braga (SWTOR) was also an ideal Jedi. He was a role model for the whole Order, as apparent from his codex entry:

Respectfully referred to as "the conscience of the Jedi Order," Master Tol Braga is a thoughtful scholar, a wise strategist and an avowed pacifist. His greatest achievement as a Jedi to date was when he dueled Sith Lord Darth Sajar to a draw--and then convinced the enemy to abandon the path of darkness and train as a Jedi.

Vitiate broke even this kind of Jedi who was so deep in the Light Side, and more notably a powerful one.
That's why he was defeated with Force lightning. Mind domination came after with his mental guard down. In case of Revan I actually need to give a lot of credit to Meetra Surik.
By the way, you don't know about power of this Jedi. Status of Master is determined by wisdom and experience, not by power and combat feats. Jedi Knight wasn't master, when he defeated Vitiate, neither was Luke, when defeated Palpatine.

Abeloth didn't create any illusions in books. Blasts of energy? Are you talking about Force pushes again? laughing Abeloth could create nuclear bomb out of alive Sith though. xD Force lightning is not news. If we compare Vitiate in terms of Force power, then Vitiate isn't much different to Palpatine in capabilities.

Honestly, I don't know. Good way to discuss Star Wars as I don't have much fan friends in real life. wink

It's ridiculous to assume that he would be capable to use Force lightning strong enough to make 4 Jedi struggle and at the same time telepathically bombard them.

I am not arguing against that. My point is that he did not mind dominate them in combat.

His plans last millenia. Happy Dance



I am proud of her. wink

you could at least mention Dooku or Jacen, Exar Kun is the worth example. Selfish and arrogant from the beginning, obsessed with hunger for knowledge to gain more power. In what way was he good personality? Anakin might have been arrogant and easy to get angered, yet, was he selfish? Was he obsessed in learning new powers? Did he have any ambitions? The only his selfishness was in fear for loosing Padme but can you blame him for it? And what love story Exar Kun had? He was bad person right from the beginning, I made effort in searching at least some goodness in his personality and you know what? I found none.

He was struggling not to be consumed by darkness completely, at least Wookieepedia says so. Otherwise we both can only assume.


He will just put up mental barrier, which is easier. In worth case he can make his Force presence smaller and dodge his mental bombardment like Verger. Or even easier, he can Force push Vitiate like Revan.


They used Dun Moch on me. wink

How is it invalid? Plenty of time to dominate Jedi Knight, while he was having fun fighting illusions.
Second confrontation with Revan reveals nothing. Revan could try resist it instead but preferred Force push.

Not assumption. Visually established fact that they fell to Force lightning. And your laughable assumption is that he was mind dominating at the same time simultaneously all of them.


You don't get it, do you?


I didn't match anything. If we talk about matching, then Luke was absorbing lightning into lightsaber from two sisters simultaneously.


Correction. Only Revan. Jedi Knight fell to Force lightning, he didn't have chance resisting mind domination like Revan.

Apparently didn't learn match over his millenia, I see no cleverness in leading open war.

Like stopping Sith Lords was ever easy. wink

Pyron_Knight
Why is Kun lower than Bane? Exar is the stronger of the two.

Dr McBeefington
Based on what exactly?

Pyron_Knight
The fact he's demonstrated more impressive uses of the Force.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
The fact he's demonstrated more impressive uses of the Force.

Other than the amulet blasts, name another thing he's demonstrated that's combat related.

UltimateAnomaly
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Now this debate is expected to move towards educational credentials. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Yes, Mongol Empire is the largest continuous land empire in history. I accept the error on my part in understanding your statement.

Now can we discuss Star Wars?



Sorry for randomly pouncing on this. The Mongol Empire was the largest contiguous empire, not continuous.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Just watch the ownage Vitiate extends to 4 powerful Jedi simultaneously;

voh2VOb-B0w


Here is another evidence of Vitiate' mind domination:

0wXo9UR48l8

Warren Sedoru is one of the 4 Jedi and that Vitiate overwhelmed with his powers (first video provided above). Vitiate mind dominated all of them in the process as well.

Wow. First time Ive seen that. Pretty damn impressive.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Leia was a Jedi by this time. She learned Battle Meditation, Force Harmony and similar techniques, which could empower individuals.




She hadn't learned any of this. They only discovered the Holocron which teaches Battle Meditation in DE2.

However it was confirmed in Empire's End that Leia naturally used "Elementary level" Battle meditation in that fight.

So it was a padawan using pre-school level BM.

And it's not even clear in what way that helped. Did it boost his power or did it just aid him in using his own potential (which is what the commentary suggests).

But either way it was clearly DE Luke doing the vast majority of the work in bringing DE Sidious down.

SIDIOUS 66
Leia had an innate ability with BM; she was naturaly good with it. That same padawan Leia also momentarily stunned a surprised Sidious with BM (Empire's End). I wouldn't exactly call that "pre-school level BM."

Was Vitiate using "pre-school level" telepathy when he mind wiped a sith lord at the age 10? Or was a 17year-old inexperienced Palpatine using the force on a pre-school level when he hid his force sensitivity and thoughts from Plagueis? Na, I would say these abilities came natural to them. The same can be said with Leia.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Leia had an innate ability with BM; she was naturaly good with it. That same padawan Leia also momentarily stunned a surprised Sidious with BM (Empire's End). I wouldn't exactly call that "pre-school level BM."

It's in Empire's End that we're told Leia was using Elementary level BM in DE1. BUt yeah she didn't learn it, she was doing it naturally.

She had began actually studying it in Empire's end before she stunned Palpatine, but considering this was the dying palaptine who got destroyed by Han Solo shooting him, that doesn't really impress me.

Also her lasting 1 second against such a weakened version of DE Palpatine further proves it must have been DE Luke doing the vast majority of the work to take down DE Sidious in his young strong body.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Was Vitiate using "pre-school level" telepathy when he mind wiped a sith lord at the age 10? Or was a 17year-old inexperienced Palpatine using the force on a pre-school level when he hid his force sensitivity and thoughts from Plagueis? Na, I would say these abilities came natural to them. The same can be said with Leia.

That's all irrelevant. We've been told on panel the level she was using it at was Elementary.

SIDIOUS 66
It was elementary BM compared to mentally coordinating an entire navy fleet in battle or leading an entire army of thousands of ground troops, yes. It's not as advanced. However, her use of this elementary BM was so good that Luke would have been defeated without it. Kinda like how he was defeated on Byss.

Soresu is not as advanced as most other lightsaber forms, and yet Obi Wan was so good with it that he was able to outduel Grievous and defeat the likes of A'Sharad Hett.

UltimateAnomaly
^^ Yup. That's true. Hell, Kit Fisto who was a master of Shii-Cho, the most basic form, which all Jedi learned from training, was able to beat Grievous, who is said to be fluent in most of the forms, if I remember correctly.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It was elementary BM compared to mentally coordinating an entire navy fleet in battle or leading an entire army of thousands of ground troops, yes. It's not as advanced.

No comparison of that nature was made though. We are just told her natural ability allowed her to do Elementary level BM without any training.

I doubt people with elementary level BM are significantly boosting the Force powers of others. Not to mention I don't think BM even does that. It aids in giving will power, clearing ones head and stuff like that. Don't get me wrong it was definetely something Luke needed at the time. His mind was getting too clouded in the Dark side.

But Iv yet to see it said anywhere that it actually boosts ones force power, but if you know something I don't feel free to post the source.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
However, her use of this elementary BM was so good that Luke would have been defeated without it. Kinda like how he was defeated on Byss.

Or maybe Luke was just that good, that he only needed a little aid to defeat DE Palps. Remember DE Palps had all the advantages on Byss being a world according to the narration "Entirely Enveloped in the Power of the Dark Side"..

It's described much in the same way Vjun is. And yet Luke was still able to compete with Sids. Still able to Force Push him against the wall (Something I highly doubt anyone below ROTS Yoda or Mace could do), still able to parry several strikes from him and even match him in strength in a Saber lock.

So it's perfectly reasonable to assume DE Luke would do much better in a more neutral setting once his mind was released from the confusion of going too deep into the Dark Side.

And very reasonable to assume that with some Basic BM help from Leia he would definetely defeat DE Palpatine.

Zampanó
Originally posted by UltimateAnomaly
^^ Yup. That's true. Hell, Kit Fisto who was a master of Shii-Cho, the most basic form, which all Jedi learned from training, was able to beat Grievous, who is said to be fluent in most of the forms, if I remember correctly.
Be careful with that; the depiction of Form 1 is wildly inconsistent:

Why teach your younglings a form that Kenobi considers dangerously primal (in use)? ((And why does every non-Stover author wish so desperately that their characters were using Vapaad?))

RE: Blaxican

UltimateAnomaly
Form I is apparently best suited to multiple opponents, from what I can remember from Kreia's words in KOTOR 2, which explains how Kit Fisto could beat Grievous in a duel. After all, having more than one lightsaber in a sense 'ticks the box' of mutiple opponents.

RE: Blaxican
Kit Fisto beat Greivous because everyone beats Greivous in TCW cartoon. He jobs in like every episode.

The events in The Cestus Deception happen within the same year (21bby) as the events in the Vassek episodes (where Kit beats greivous). They happen within the same year, yet Kit easily steamrolls Greivous in one mission, and gets handled by Assaj Ventress in the other. How is that even possible?

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Kit Fisto beat Greivous because everyone beats Greivous in TCW cartoon. He jobs in like every episode.

The events in The Cestus Deception happen within the same year (21bby) as the events in the Vassek episodes (where Kit beats greivous). They happen within the same year, yet Kit easily steamrolls Greivous in one mission, and gets handled by Assaj Ventress in the other. How is that even possible?

Asajj beat down Grievous in pure Lightsaber combat in season 4 episode 19.

She did so without any use of Force TK as well.

Btw Ashoka was clearly no match for Grievous. But it's clear most Jedi Council memebers can take him.

Ventress is a fair bit above most Council members though.

Nephthys
I guess the idea is that anyone can have a good day and anyone can have a bad one.

Of course thats bull imo. If a person is just faster, strong and more skilled than another they'll win no matter how off their game they are.

RE: Blaxican
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Asajj beat down Grievous in pure Lightsaber combat in season 4 episode 19.

She did so without any use of Force TK as well.

Btw Ashoka was clearly no match for Grievous. But it's clear most Jedi Council memebers can take him.

Ventress is a fair bit above most Council members though. And yet Greivous manages to defeat both her and Durge at the same time...

Edit- The idea I think is that canon is simply being overwritten. The Clone Wars cartoon has GL's blessing and a little bit of his direction in it, the novels and comics do not. Therefore, TCW can just shit all over pre-established continuity. Cestus Deception events? Never happened. Greivous beating Durge and Assaj simultaneously? Not canon.

etc.

UltimateAnomaly
In terms of sheer saber ability, I think Ventress' Makashi skills out-do even Fisto's amazing grasp of Shii-Cho. Since Makashi is purely for saber combat, whereas Shii-Cho seems more of a basic style, unless mastered, it has the general advantage. Then again, I don't have much knowledge on what Fisto has done in comparison to Ventress when it comes to combat feats.

DARTH POWER
^ Yes looks Council members who got tooled by Grievous in the CW Mini were probably just having very bad days!

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
And yet Greivous manages to defeat both her and Durge at the same time...

Edit- The idea I think is that canon is simply being overwritten. The Clone Wars cartoon has GL's blessing and a little bit of his direction in it, the novels and comics do not. Therefore, TCW can just shit all over pre-established continuity.

^ The EU story was clearly A bad day for Ventress stick out tongue

Yep the Animation is more canon, so we should give that version priority when it comes to power levels. Other versions are just bad days for whoever Lol

RE: Blaxican
lol.

How do we know greivous wasn't simply "having a bad day" when he lost to her?

That is literally the worst counterargument ever, I think. Any duel can be rendered invalid by "X was just having a bad day" logic.

Nephthys
Originally posted by UltimateAnomaly
In terms of sheer saber ability, I think Ventress' Makashi skills out-do even Fisto's amazing grasp of Shii-Cho. Since Makashi is purely for saber combat, whereas Shii-Cho seems more of a basic style, unless mastered, it has the general advantage. Then again, I don't have much knowledge on what Fisto has done in comparison to Ventress when it comes to combat feats.

Theres an episode of CW where Luminara calls Ventress's Makashi skills amatuarish and sloppy.

Of course 5 seconds later Ventress curbstomps her, so take that how you want.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
lol.

How do we know greivous wasn't simply "having a bad day" when he lost to her?

That is literally the worst counterargument ever, I think. Any duel can be rendered invalid by "X was just having a bad day" logic.

I just edited. Basically because like you said the T-Canon version fits Lucas's vision better. So if we want to keep believing in EU continuity Bad day is the only explanation really.

UltimateAnomaly
Grievous was probably annoyed because he didn't get a birthday card or a cake from 'Daddy Dooku' who we all know, was his great might Pimp Lord.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Nephthys
Theres an episode of CW where Luminara calls Ventress's Makashi skills amatuarish and sloppy.

Of course 5 seconds later Ventress curbstomps her, so take that how you want.

Well you can't trust what they say to each other while fighting. She's not exactly gna say mid-fight "Wow Ventress your Awsome, your so gna kill me"

She admitted to Ashoka later the same episode that she has never fought anyone like Ventress before and it was foolish of her to take her on by herself.

Nephthys

RE: Blaxican
Yeah.

Drew is a tard though. lol

UltimateAnomaly
As I type this I'm literally reading Path of Destruction. Drew is a lucky Canadian son born out of wedlock. Oh yes. Yes he is.

DARTH POWER
I just watched "Lair of Grievous again". I completely forgot Grievous killed a Jedi Knight.

Dooku said he expected that but to best a true Jedi Master is what would have been a real accomplishment.

I can bet anything if Ki-Adi-Mundi or Shaak Ti were to face GG in this animation they would prevail.

Although I have noticed Jedi usually use Force TK to best him. Apart from Kit Fisto the other Masters have struggled to best GG in a pure Saber fight.

Stealth Moose

Padawan Obi-Wan
He is wrong under no circumstances could Vader beat Revan not only can he not block the Force Storm but they would also face in lightsabers and he would die quickly and easily. Who cares about this Drew anyway does he veen work for Lucas Game Arts?

Nephthys
He was the lead writer for Kotor, and wrote the Darth Bane trilogy.

Padawan Obi-Wan
Well that's clearly not true as it was Bioware who made KoTOR and Bantam Books that wrote Dynasty of the sith and the prequels.

Nephthys
Knights of the Old Republic.

- 'Writer(s) Drew Karpyshyn'

Star Wars: Darth Bane: Path of Destruction.

- Author Drew Karpyshyn

Drew used to work for Bioware but also wrote books.

Padawan Obi-Wan
Well that doesn't make sense seeing as the only writers hired by Bioware between 2000 and 2003 were Greg Muzyka and Ray Muzka as well as David Gaider as a freelance. Drew Karpyshyn was only hired by Lucas Game Arts for the upcoming Star Wars MMORPG. Clearly you have the XBOX games made by Bioware confused with the MMORPG designed by Sonly Online Entertainment.

Nephthys
Drew was working with Bioware since before 2000, as he was working on Baldurs Gate II which released that year.

Drew Karpyshan.

Games

Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Baldur's Gate II: Throne of Bhaal
Neverwinter Nights
Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic
Jade Empire
Mass Effect
Mass Effect 2
Star Wars: The Old Republic

Novels
Forgotten Realms

Temple Hill (2001)

Baldur's Gate

Baldur's Gate II: Throne of Bhaal (novelization) (2001)

Star Wars

Star Wars - Darth Bane: Path of Destruction (2006)
Star Wars - Darth Bane: Rule of Two (2007)
Star Wars - Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil (2009)
Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan (2011)

Mass Effect

Mass Effect: Revelation (2007) (Prequel to the video game series)
Mass Effect: Ascension (2008)
Mass Effect: Retribution (2010)

Padawan Obi-Wan
not to be rude, but i dont click on links when i cannot see the web page. for all i know you could have posted anything, and why disguise it anywya?

Nephthys
If you just hover the mouse over the link it tells you the web page at the bottom of the screen. Its just a link to wikipedia.

Padawan Obi-Wan
well i use oepra and i cannot see anything, btw whyd you get so upset in the other thread just because you were wrong about bastillas age its no big deal bro?

Lord Lucien
Yeah, Neph. Why U mad, bro? Brah? No big, eh, bro?

ares834
Lol. Because Satele is clearly Bastilla's daughter....

Arhael
Originally posted by Padawan Obi-Wan
well i use oepra and i cannot see anything, btw whyd you get so upset in the other thread just because you were wrong about bastillas age its no big deal bro?
Hipster!

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