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Battle in the heart of the Matrix...

Fight o the Death or KO...no BFR...who wins?

Assuming Bor and Thanos are incapable of shutting down the matrix I'll go with the veritable gods of the matrix.

I'll go with thanos. He battled the grandmaster, possibly the 2nd greatest of the elders of te universe... To a game in a virtual world of the grandmasters own design... And thanos still won.


Fear purple.

Thanos solos

Wouldn't it really depend on the nature of Thanos/Bor's powers in the Matrix? By placing the battle there, the OP is essentially saying they aren't using their real-world powers, but mental manifestations of them. This isn't a traditional feats battle, which the Marvel team would roflstomp.

Grandmaster feat is wildly overrated. But Thanos's mind is formidable. Taking Neo/Smith due to experience.

^Agreed.

Also, Smith could likely "overwrite" one of the two.

I just wonder how Bor's mind would function in this realm, would his magical abilities and energies also transfer over?

Would Agent Smith be able to hack his mind or Thanos?

Originally posted by Digi
Wouldn't it really depend on the nature of Thanos/Bor's powers in the Matrix? By placing the battle there, the OP is essentially saying they aren't using their real-world powers, but mental manifestations of them. This isn't a traditional feats battle, which the Marvel team would roflstomp.

Grandmaster feat is wildly overrated. But Thanos's mind is formidable. Taking Neo/Smith due to experience.

unless Thanos and Bor had extensive knowledge of the matrix they would IMO not realize they could exceed the limits of power they already have so more then likely they would mentally limit themselves to there real world limits.

Thanos solos. Not even close.

Thanos solos.

Originally posted by Digi
Wouldn't it really depend on the nature of Thanos/Bor's powers in the Matrix? By placing the battle there, the OP is essentially saying they aren't using their real-world powers, but mental manifestations of them. This isn't a traditional feats battle, which the Marvel team would roflstomp.

Grandmaster feat is wildly overrated. But Thanos's mind is formidable. Taking Neo/Smith due to experience.



Yes, Bor and Thanos would only be mental manifestations of themselves in the digital world...

As pertains Thanos's the Grandmaster feat, it was never a real feat in the 1st place; the Grandmaster faced a robot the entire time...not the real Thanos...Thanos even called the Grandmaster a fool for not wearing the Mind Gem during the confontation (as the Mind Gem would have alerted the Grandmaster to the deception).

Originally posted by Digi
Wouldn't it really depend on the nature of Thanos/Bor's powers in the Matrix? By placing the battle there, the OP is essentially saying they aren't using their real-world powers, but mental manifestations of them. This isn't a traditional feats battle, which the Marvel team would roflstomp.

Grandmaster feat is wildly overrated. But Thanos's mind is formidable. Taking Neo/Smith due to experience.



Yes, Bor and Thanos would only be mental manifestations of themselves in the digital world...

As pertains Thanos's Grandmaster feat, it was never a real feat in the 1st place; the Grandmaster faced a robot the entire time...not the real Thanos...Thanos even called the Grandmaster a fool for not wearing the Mind Gem during the confontation (as the Mind Gem would have alerted the Grandmaster to the deception).

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder


Yes, Bor and Thanos would only be mental manifestations of themselves in the digital world...

As pertains Thanos's Grandmaster feat, it was never a real feat in the 1st place; the Grandmaster faced a robot the entire time...not the real Thanos...Thanos even called the Grandmaster a fool for not wearing the Mind Gem during the confontation (as the Mind Gem would have alerted the Grandmaster to the deception).

It was more of a prep feat. Thanos basically out-prepped the Grandmaster, or in a sense "out-cheated" him.

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
Thanos solos. Not even close.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Thanos solos.

...wouldn't kill you to read through some dissenting opinions or provide justification. This isn't as close as it seems at first glance.

The Matrix technology is so archaic for Thanos. Thanos outsmart the complete system, escape from it, blaze his way out of there, and comeback with his own system to beat the Matrix.

Oh, and he murders Neo while doing all of this.

Originally posted by Digi
...wouldn't kill you to read through some dissenting opinions or provide justification. This isn't as close as it seems at first glance.

Just for you. Thanos has greater Tech then the Matrix, I imagine him not only good at mechanics but also in programming. He had contact to technologies which are so far beyond the Matrix that he would see it for what it is, just a code. With his experience (also the rality gem comes to mind) and willpower, he would outsmart/outshine Neo and Smith.

Originally posted by Digi
...wouldn't kill you to read through some dissenting opinions or provide justification. This isn't as close as it seems at first glance.

I always read all of the posts. It has not yet killed me.

Justification: Thanos is simply much more powerful than Neo/Smith. He humiliates people who are themselves much, much more powerful than Neo/Smith.

Neo/Smith's only hope lies in their esoteric powers. The only esoteric power that would be useful is Smith's ability to convert others into copies of himself. Even if he tried that on Thanos, I doubt it would work as he has always been highly resistant to any kind of tampering.

But that's moot, because Smith won't be touching him. Smith's best speed and durability feats show no reason to believe he doesn't get one-shotted by an energy beam a pico-second after the fight begins.

I didn't say all this earlier because I thought it was obvious.

Except the rules within the matrix are the limitations you place on yourself... no bfr and you have 2 characters who know the rule... and 2 who don't at least to start with... I think Smith overwriting thanos off the bat would win it for team 1.

Originally posted by Uriel005
Except the rules within the matrix are the limitations you place on yourself... no bfr and you have 2 characters who know the rule... and 2 who don't at least to start with... I think Smith overwriting thanos off the bat would win it for team 1.

A) Thanos isn't going to place any limitations on himself. He likely recognizes immediately that he's in the matrix due to his intelligence, his familiarity with technology, with reality warping and with being in other realities and planes of existence. If he doesn't, he assumes that he's as powerful as he normally is. Either way, Neo/Smith gain no tangible advantage here.

B) Even at their peak, Neo/Smith simply aren't up to the task. They aren't that strong, that fast or that durable compared to, say, Silver Surfer and the Forgotten One. In other words, they don't have the powers necessary to do anything to Thanos at all.

EDIT: *double post*

.....ok so I know thanos is a pesky little bugger to kill but lets say he was walking around in the matrix(assuming he's plugged in the same way anyone would be) what would happen if someone just pulled his plug out? I mean I know it kills everyone else but how would it fair against him?

won't kill him... if he were allowed to escape in this scenario I'd give him 5 minutes to get out and I'd be disappointed if it took longer than 2

what would happen to his conscience then? and what bout his body? because getting unplugged before making it out pretty much disconnects your brain from your body......

this in itself intrigues me. Not just for Thanos either....anyone that would be lets say immortal. What would happen to them?....

Thanos, easily.

Nice commentary thus far; some interesting point of views here...

Anyway, heres my take on the fight: The mental projections of Bor and Thanos should be very powerful in the Matrix as both of them are bonafide badazz's and they know it...thus their digital forms would reflect this.

On the other hand, Bor and Thanos would be facing two extremely powerful technopaths on their home turf; Neo and Smith know the Matrix very well and know which rules can be bent and which can be completely broken...

As a result I dont either side completely dominates the other here; I believe one could make a strong argument for both sides as pertains which team wins...

Originally posted by quanchi112
Thanos, easily.

Based on?

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Based on? Comics and common sense meeting up and getting married.

I just don't think we can assume Thanos's inherent knowledge of technology would cause him to override the Matrix somehow. I see this as a mental battle entirely, which won't include Thanos's traditional feats.

His formidable intellect is what would keep him in the fight, but it's because he'd manifest some comparably powerful displays in the Matrix, not because of his "real world" feats. If you think that Thanos is smart enough to manipulate the Matrix to a win, good on you, I won't argue. But my opinion is that the literal gods of the Matrix would trump him in their own universe. They're fighting in computer code, and the code is written to make Neo (and thus Smith) essentially unstoppable.

I don't understand. No character in the Matrix canon is weaker inside it than they are in real life. If you or I were plugged in tomorrow without our knowledge, would we not retain whatever physical abilities we had today?

So why would Thanos or Bor be any different? Would the matrix inherently weaken them somehow? If so, to what extent? Based on what precedent?

Team Win.

Agent cant do that much to win as he taking over the likes of Thanos and Bor

Originally posted by BlackZero30x
what would happen to his conscience then? and what bout his body? because getting unplugged before making it out pretty much disconnects your brain from your body......

this in itself intrigues me. Not just for Thanos either....anyone that would be lets say immortal. What would happen to them?....

Good question. He might just be fine, or he may be reduced to an immortal veggie.

Originally posted by Stoic
Good question. He might just be fine, or he may be reduced to an immortal veggie. i lean towards just fine

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
I don't understand. No character in the Matrix canon is weaker inside it than they are in real life. If you or I were plugged in tomorrow without our knowledge, would we not retain whatever physical abilities we had today?

So why would Thanos or Bor be any different? Would the matrix inherently weaken them somehow? If so, to what extent? Based on what precedent?

The Matrix isn't just another mind/dreamworld where anything goes if your "will is strong enough". It is grounded in reality, however those who know about the Matrix can bend some of the rules. However, what can be accomplished does have hard limits, only Neo can reach those because his unique code allows him to do so. He has that code because it is by design of the Architect. What someone can do in real life has no bearing on what they can do in the Matrix (unless you are connected to the Source like Neo is). No one can be greater than The One in the Matrix.

I'm surprised people took the debate in this direction though. In the Movie Vs Forum regarding Matrix debates, it is always stated that the opponents assume their real life powers for the sake of the argument. In that case, Thanos would solo easily. If we are arguing what would actually happen, Thanos would not retain his powers, nor would he be able to surpass Neo.

thanos needs time to learn. Smith could overwrite him immediately or Neo could erase him before Thanos learns.

Also Neo was the one because he was created to be (and not because he was a super genius).

Thanos can't die because of a virtual reality program. His avatar can die but the real thanos inside the pod can't die and so his avatar will be resurrected. Thanos is also too smart and will figure out his whereabouts and use the links which are connected to him within the pod and take over the matrix.

Humans in the pods who are unaware of the matrix when woken are = to their real selves. The people who woke from the pod are as strong as they were when they were within the Matrix. So the avatars of Bor and Thanos will have their powers within the matrix.

And if they don't, Bor knows he is a God and behave as if he was a God and this alone will allow him to bend the matrix to his will. This is without even knowing that they are in the matrix.
If he realizes that he is a God in a computer, he can wake up and destroy the hardware.
Team 2 wins easy.

Team 1 wins only if Matrix is the only reality - no computer hardware, just the virtual world. This will pit Bor and Thanos against the supreme beings of the Matrix and they will lose.

Originally posted by h1a8
thanos needs time to learn. Smith could overwrite him immediately or Neo could erase him before Thanos learns.

Also Neo was the one because he was created to be (and not because he was a super genius). No. His being the one was not a created event. Just one that was planned for, hence systemic anomaly. Intelligence has nothing to do with being the one, it is the questioning of reality and the acceptance that the reality of the matrix is false combined with x-factors

Originally posted by Placidity
The Matrix isn't just another mind/dreamworld where anything goes if your "will is strong enough". It is grounded in reality, however those who know about the Matrix can bend some of the rules. However, what can be accomplished does have hard limits, only Neo can reach those because his unique code allows him to do so. He has that code because it is by design of the Architect. What someone can do in real life has no bearing on what they can do in the Matrix (unless you are connected to the Source like Neo is). No one can be greater than The One in the Matrix.

I'm surprised people took the debate in this direction though. In the Movie Vs Forum regarding Matrix debates, it is always stated that the opponents assume their real life powers for the sake of the argument. In that case, Thanos would solo easily. If we are arguing what would actually happen, Thanos would not retain his powers, nor would he be able to surpass Neo.

tada

Originally posted by Diesldude
Thanos will...take over the matrix.

That's a relatively unfounded claim, unless you think he can matter manip the code in seconds on the fly to do exactly this while in a to-the-death battle.

The OP says the battle takes place inside the Matrix, i.e., inside the virtual reality. Even if Thanos and Bor thought of themselves as Gods/Titans, there actions would still only be code for Neo/Smith to read and manipulate. In the Matrix they are essentially reality warpers. Pretty much any attack Thanos or Bor did would be read before they did it, and could literally be blocked/stopped with a gesture (a la Neo stopping bullets in the original film and Reloaded). If Neo dives into Thanos's chest like he did Smith, or Smith somehow impales either opponent to attempt to overwrite them, it's likely going to work. I don't believe this battle is going to come down to a bullet time kung fu fight.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
The OP says the battle takes place inside the Matrix, i.e., inside the virtual reality. Even if Thanos and Bor thought of themselves as Gods/Titans, there actions would still only be code for Neo/Smith to read and manipulate. In the Matrix they are essentially reality warpers. Pretty much any attack Thanos or Bor did would be read before they did it, and could literally be blocked/stopped with a gesture (a la Neo stopping bullets in the original film and Reloaded). If Neo dives into Thanos's chest like he did Smith, or Smith somehow impales either opponent to attempt to overwrite them, it's likely going to work. I don't believe this battle is going to come down to a bullet time kung fu fight. Argument against that though is that Thanos and Bor would have the perception to manipulate the code just as well if not better. Just comes down to whether or not you think you can do it.

Originally posted by Uriel005
Argument against that though is that Thanos and Bor would have the perception to manipulate the code just as well if not better. Just comes down to whether or not you think you can do it.

I'd love to see that kind of precision manipulation with no prep and during a fight with people who are attacking you with the power of a matter (reality?)-warping god. Thanos or Bor may have a feat to this affect that convinces me...comics are crazy. But it seems a tall order even for them.

I believe, for example, that Thanos could hack or control the Matrix if given prep and outside access to his tech. I DON'T think he could from within the Matrix and no prior knowledge of his environment, opponents, or technology.

Originally posted by Digi
I'd love to see that kind of precision manipulation with no prep and during a fight with people who are attacking you with the power of a matter (reality?)-warping god. Thanos or Bor may have a feat to this affect that convinces me...comics are crazy. But it seems a tall order even for them.

I believe, for example, that Thanos could hack or control the Matrix if given prep and outside access to his tech. I DON'T think he could from within the Matrix and no prior knowledge of his environment, opponents, or technology.
Thanos was overwhelmed by thor's madness in B&T, wasn't he? I know this isn't an exact or even remotely accurate analogy but it shows what a virtual reality can do to even thanos.

Let's be realistic here.

No one is going to be superior to The One in the Matrix.

To Bor and Thanos the Matrix would be perceived as actual reality, just as it would to any other uninitiated being that's plugged in and doesn't awaken. Thor and Bor would likely perform just as they would normally in the MU, the only difference being that since their actions/power output would all occur within this virtual reality it would fall within Neo and Smith's ability to manipulate, i.e., Neo could raise his hand and stop an energy beam Thanos directed at him, and he'd see that Thanos was going to attack before Thanos actually acted simply by reading the changes in his code.

Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
Let's be realistic here.

No one is going to be superior to The One in the Matrix. the architect...

Lets say that neo and smith kill & bor before they realize that they are in the matrix. Do you guys really think that thanos will really die? I think he will wake up like it was a bad Dream and then dismantle that sh!t.

What if Thanos used telepathy to read Neo and Smith's minds to figure out they're in the matrix and what's going on? Can Bor use TP? Odin (his son) can so maybe Bor can too.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
To Bor and Thanos the Matrix would be perceived as actual reality, just as it would to any other uninitiated being that's plugged in and doesn't awaken. Thor and Bor would likely perform just as they would normally in the MU, the only difference being that since their actions/power output would all occur within this virtual reality it would fall within Neo and Smith's ability to manipulate, i.e., Neo could raise his hand and stop an energy beam Thanos directed at him, and he'd see that Thanos was going to attack before Thanos actually acted simply by reading the changes in his code.

Wow, I didn't think of that until you wrote it. But that makes alot of sense.

Question to the Matrix junkies, at the end of the series were all Agent smiths as strong as Neo's peak power by the end? They just fought one on one because Smith wanted I guess savor his victory, right?

Originally posted by Diesldude
Lets say that neo and smith kill & bor before they realize that they are in the matrix. Do you guys really think that thanos will really die? I think he will wake up like it was a bad Dream and then dismantle that sh!t.

I don't think he would die. I think he would will himself back, kinda like neo when he got shot up in the 1st one. Also I wouldn't say it be entirely impossible to eventually for thanos to figure out he is in a VR world. And then he might be able to will himself out of the matrix. If you watch some that extra stuff made from the movies or maybe it was in a comic or something but there was one kid who was suppose to be Neo's superior. He was able to simple will himself out of the matrix and wakeup. Not sure how that worked but if anyone can do it thanos should be able to if he tried hard enough.

If thanos wasen't around to tell Bor whats up I think bor would just keep on fighting and eventually "die."

At the end of Revelations when Neo and Smith fought Smith had already assimilated The Oracle and as such was pretty much on equal footing with Neo. There's a little caveat there, though. In the last film after Smith overwrites The Oracle the other Smith's that are present step back in fear at the newly created "Oracle Smith", so I'm not necessarily sure each and every Smith had the exact same power level at that point, but from what was shown in Reloaded, each person he overwrites becomes him, albeit with the memories of the person he overwrote assimilated into the collective consciousness. I think it was Oracle Smith that fought Neo in the end though (iirc, he started quoting the Oracle and then realized that it was a trap set by her and his defeat was inevitable, but he followed through and overwrote Neo anyway, which passed Neo's code to all of the other people Smith had assimilated and cause a cascade disipation of "The One" code). So there's evidence that each Smith duplicate was a copy, and also evidence that there was a "Smith Prime", if you will, that was Neo's equal.

Anyway, if Thanos realizes he's in a virtual battlefield and wakes up in the real world that would be self bfr and constitute a loss/forfeiture. His only recourse for the actual battle, given the OP stips, is to fight within the Matrix reality, and in the Matrix Neo and Smith have a significant homefield advantage given the nature of there powers in that reality.

Also, regarding telepathy on Thanos's part, within the virtual reality it would still just be a code variant in Thanos's being to be manipulated and blocked/overwritten by Neo/Smith.

Also, regarding the Kid, he wasn't Neo's superior as far as ability, he was just able to come to the realization that the Matrix was a virtual reality and awaken without needing to be extracted by Neo, Trinity, and Morpheus. Neo did, however, make contact with the kid and extraction was going to occur. His self realization simply made it unnecessary. It's all shown in the Animatrix.

Delph seems to be handling this in a way I can't match. The Matrix isn't a realm of geekdom where my knowledge could be considered comprehensive.

However, I agree with his assessment.

Just out of curiosity, how do you guys think would Hank Henshaw fare?

Originally posted by Placidity
The Matrix isn't just another mind/dreamworld where anything goes if your "will is strong enough". It is grounded in reality,

I'd like a moment to appreciate the irony in appealing to "reality" in a conversation about a comic book character inside a foreign, fictional virtual world based on the memory of a fictional Earth based on our current Earth.



Says who? Where in the Matrix canon is it shown that there exists an upper limit and that Neo reaches it? Because this sounds like supposition.



Again, sounds like supposition. Obviously the Architect didn't account for someone like Thanos, but the OP says that Thanos is there.

Let's really think about this. If Thanos does not retain his powers because the Matrix isn't programmed that way, how powerful does he get to be? Is he nerfed all the way down to standard human levels? Does he become human altogether? What about his purple skin? No one in the Matrix has purple skin. Does he turn into a white guy?

Because if we're going to arbitrarily change characters whenever they enter the Matrix, then every such fight is going to be "Neo vs. an average dude," and Neo wins by speedblitz.

EDIT: Double Post

Depends on the stipulations. If the fight takes place within the Matrix alone I'd put odds on Neo. While Hank would have his technopathy and operate as he would in the DCU, the caveat there would be he'd have control over the virtual reality machinery constructs within the reality of the Matrix, not the actual real world mainframe/machinery that produces the Matrix. If Hank was 'jacked in', it would be, for all intents and purposes, a technopath versus a reality warper. Just have to get your mind around the fact that inside of the Matrix should be treated as an actual universe with laws of physics. Like, for example, if a thread maker made a match of Mephisto Vs. Phoenix in Mephisto's realm, and you made an argument that Phoenix could just leave the realm, go to the White Hot Room, and destroy Mephisto's Realm from there, that would be considered a rule break/bfr. The Matrix is Neo/Smith's realm. Leaving it or influencing something outside of it would be off limits per forum rules.

And Dream Stuff, the answer to your question is Thanos/Bor would retain there powers as presented in the MU, they would, however, be bound by the rules of the Matrix reality, and within the Matrix Reality, Neo and Smith can manipulate reality to their will. Thanos and Bor would just be code/constructs to be manipulated in the virtual reality, albeit code with abilities most Matrix Constructs don't have. In the realm of the Matrix Neo and Smith should be treated as reality warpers, the reality just happens to be virtual.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
And Dream Stuff, the answer to your question is Thanos/Bor would retain there powers as presented in the MU, they would, however, be bound by the rules of the Matrix reality

That makes more sense.



OK. Based on feats, Neo and SMith are low level reality-warpers. Their powers primarily is used to amp their own physical attributes, especially speed. They also have telekinetically affected inanimate objects, phased small parts of their bodies, convert other's into clones of themselves, and exhibited both combat and non-combat precog.

As impressive as all that is, that puts them at low-herald level at best. Each a good match for someone like Wonder Woman on neutral territory. None of the power's they ever shown as part of their ability to manipulate the Matrix makes up for the huge difference between then and Thanos.

There is nothing Neo and Smith could do to Thanos whilst in the Matrix. Thanos undertook insane rigorous punishment whilst training himself venturing through the many different planes of reality in his earlier years.

But the fact is his physical body can't die. He will just remain in the Matrix and keep fighting and evolving. The fact that he withstood Moondragon and Cosmos attacks handidly means he can withstand mental assaults on an insane scale.

I know Neo was the perfect equation born in human form. Born to die and try again. But Thanos even if it means BFR even if he is forced out of the Matrix he would simply destroy the physical world's machines surrounding him upon awakening killing the Matrix from the outside.

Haven't read all of the previous posts but couldn't Neo just pull Thanos' heart out for a temp KO win or destroy either of his opponents from within as he did to Agent Smith?

Originally posted by MF DELPH
At the end of Revelations when Neo and Smith fought Smith had already assimilated The Oracle and as such was pretty much on equal footing with Neo. There's a little caveat there, though. In the last film after Smith overwrites The Oracle the other Smith's that are present step back in fear at the newly created "Oracle Smith", so I'm not necessarily sure each and every Smith had the exact same power level at that point, but from what was shown in Reloaded, each person he overwrites becomes him, albeit with the memories of the person he overwrote assimilated into the collective consciousness. I think it was Oracle Smith that fought Neo in the end though (iirc, he started quoting the Oracle and then realized that it was a trap set by her and his defeat was inevitable, but he followed through and overwrote Neo anyway, which passed Neo's code to all of the other people Smith had assimilated and cause a cascade disipation of "The One" code). So there's evidence that each Smith duplicate was a copy, and also evidence that there was a "Smith Prime", if you will, that was Neo's equal.

Anyway, if Thanos realizes he's in a virtual battlefield and wakes up in the real world that would be self bfr and constitute a loss/forfeiture. His only recourse for the actual battle, given the OP stips, is to fight within the Matrix reality, and in the Matrix Neo and Smith have a significant homefield advantage given the nature of there powers in that reality.

Also, regarding telepathy on Thanos's part, within the virtual reality it would still just be a code variant in Thanos's being to be manipulated and blocked/overwritten by Neo/Smith.

Also, regarding the Kid, he wasn't Neo's superior as far as ability, he was just able to come to the realization that the Matrix was a virtual reality and awaken without needing to be extracted by Neo, Trinity, and Morpheus. Neo did, however, make contact with the kid and extraction was going to occur. His self realization simply made it unnecessary. It's all shown in the Animatrix.

I thought not needing assistance made him superior but that may not be exactly true. Would have loved to see how he would perform in the matrix. Also good point about even if thanos did realize what was going on and willed himself out it would count as a BFR.

Think im gonna start calling him "Smith Prime" lol ahh... I enjoy that way too much....

Good post man!

http://lolmart.com/files/2010/07/evil-agent-smith.jpg dat smile... Thanos and Bor take off in other direction running for their lives.

Originally posted by the ninjak
There is nothing Neo and Smith could do to Thanos whilst in the Matrix. Thanos undertook insane rigorous punishment whilst training himself venturing through the many different planes of reality in his earlier years.

But the fact is his physical body can't die. He will just remain in the Matrix and keep fighting and evolving. The fact that he withstood Moondragon and Cosmos attacks handidly means he can withstand mental assaults on an insane scale.

I know Neo was the perfect equation born in human form. Born to die and try again. But Thanos even if it means BFR even if he is forced out of the Matrix he would simply destroy the physical world's machines surrounding him upon awakening killing the Matrix from the outside.


It's not a matter of Neo being more powerful than Thanos as Thanos is presented in the MU, it's a matter of, given the battlefield, Neo pretty much controls the terms of combat. In the Matrix reality, while Thanos/Bor would still exhibit the abilities they do in the MU, they would be translated as virtual representations, and as such, be within the ability of Neo and Smith to manipulate (as they would just be code, not their physical selves). It's the homefield advantage, not a matter of who is more powerful, ability for ability. Neo would know everything Thanos was about to do before he did it, and could simply gesture to stop it, or just move out of the way. He could also overwrite Thanos' virtual representation. Thano's 'real world' physical durability is a non-factor. In the Matrix he's just code with a superhuman ability set.

Also, the battle takes place inside the Matrix so the other points, while valid, are moot given the battle stips.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
Neo pretty much controls the terms of combat... be within the ability of Neo and Smith to manipulate (as they would just be code, not their physical selves). Neo would know everything Thanos was about to do before he did it, and could simply gesture to stop it, or just move out of the way. He could also overwrite Thanos' virtual representation.

I think you're overstating this a lot. Yes, Neo can manipulate the code of the matrix to an extent. We've seen what he can actually do with it. He's never demonstrated that he can use it to depower another character. There's no reason to believe he can make Thanos less durable, slower, weaker or any of the number of things he'd have to do to make this competitive.

Neo's powers have limits.

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
I think you're overstating this a lot. Yes, Neo can manipulate the code of the matrix to an extent. We've seen what he can actually do with it. He's never demonstrated that he can use it to depower another character. There's no reason to believe he can make Thanos less durable, slower, weaker or any of the number of things he'd have to do to make this competitive.

Neo's powers have limits. actually in the very 1rst movie he did... completely deconstructed smith and its what he does everytime he flies or stops a bullet... Limited by imagination.

I'm not overstating his abilities, I'm just understanding the terms of the battle differently than you are. It's just a difference in interpretations. While you are correct in the fact that Neo and Smith primarily demonstrated their reality altering via breaking physical limitations (superspeed, flight, superstrength, etc) and appeared to be low level metas, those are simply displays of the underlying main contributing factor: their ability to alter the virtual reality to suit their needs on a whim. Other examples of these abilities exist. For example, in the first film Smith, without physical contact, altered Neo's form so that his mouth was sealed shut by altering his code (this was prior to Neo's 'awakening). Another example is Neo's reaching his hands into Trinity's virtual self and removing the bullets, as well as ressurrecting her real world self after her death (albeit via cardiovascular stiumlation). There's also the trademark sequence where Neo comes to the realization that he can read the code and simply dives into Smith's body and explodes him from the inside, then causes the entire building to "ripple" by flexing. Their abilities span more than simple physical augmentation, it's just that, The Matrix series being action movies, the martial arts and fighting scenes were the primary selling points. What's overlooked is that those physical abilities displayed were the direct result of the character's control over the reality.

Regardless of Thanos or Bor's MU 'real world' representations, within the Matrix all of their actions, be it an energy blast, punch, kick, flight, teleportation, telepathy, their own bodies, etc, would be, and are, for the intents of this battle, simply code and virtual representations due to being inside the Matrix. Remember the scene where the child explains to Neo that there is no spoon and he's simply bending himself. That would apply to the form of Thanos and Bor as well. It's not Thanos and Bor's physical forms they would be combatting, it's the virtual representations of said form. In the Matrix all of their abilities and form would be exploitable by Neo and Smith. In that reality Neo and Smith can play with/break the rules, and Thanos and Bor would be within their realm to manipulate. Their real world durability isn't a factor. There is no spoon, just the code representing and displayed as the spoon.

If you consider the nature of the battlefield for a second you can understand that it's not a matter of Neo or Smith being able to bypass Thanos and Bor's durability, it's a matter of their 'real world', or actual physical durabulility, being a non factor in the virtual reality. They're just code, just like everything else in the Matrix is.

I hope that makes more sense so you can understand the position of my argument.

Originally posted by Uriel005
actually in the very 1rst movie he did... completely deconstructed smith and its what he does everytime he flies or stops a bullet... Limited by imagination.

Yes, if he can jump into someone he can do that. Since he's not fast enough to do that to Thanos, it doesn't matter.

And I've already listed the applications of his power. If that's all he can do, it isn't nearly enough. If you want to assume he can do anything he wants limited by only his imagination, let's just give him an Infinity Gauntlet and forget that we've ever heard of the no-limits fallacy.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
If you consider the nature of the battlefield for a second you can understand that it's not a matter of Neo or Smith being able to bypass Thanos and Bor's durability, it's a matter of their 'real world', or actual physical durabulility, being a non factor in the virtual reality. They're just code, just like everything else in the Matrix is.

I hope that makes more sense so you can understand the position of my argument.

I understood your position from the beginning. The problem is that it constitutes a no limits fallacy.

I admitted already that Neo/Smith have low-level reality warping powers, but you seem to think that because "it's all just code" they actually have high/unlimited reality warping powers in the matrix that they just don't use.

CIS is on, right? Even if it wasn't, high-end feats are still high-end, right?

Neo is only so fast, only so strong, has only a modicum of precog, can only freeze small things in mid-air, et cetera. His powerset may be potentially unlimited, but his ability is certainly not.

I'm not arguing a no limit's fallacy, I'm arguing that since Thanos and Bor would only be code their attacks, which would also be code, would fall under Neo and Smith's ability to read, redirect, or negate, as was shown in the films.

The fact that Thanos and Bor, outside of the Matrix, are extremely durable, doesn't matter inside of the virtual reality. In the Matrix reality Neo could dive through Thanos's virtual chest and blow his virtual representation up just as he did Smith, or raise his hand and kill the motion of an incoming blast by overriding the code. Not because of being more powerful or having unlimited power, but because of the nature of the battlefield. He and Smith can also alter the code of others (as shown in the films).

I think the disconnect we are having is that, if I'm interpreting you right, and please correct me if I'm wrong, you're taking the stance that since Thanos and Bor's MU selves are 'trans' level and up, and Neo and Smith only displayed meta level physical abilities at max, that Thanos and Bor would be outside of their ability to harm. I'm countering that argument based on the nature of the battlefield itself, and that they would all just be code, which is the nature of the Matrix reality, and as such, they (Bor and Thanos) would be open to manipulation in their code forms. The fight is in the Matrix, not on the physical realm. In the Matrix there isn't any actual physical durability because there isn't anything that is actually physical. It's all virtual representations, and Neo and Smith can alter the virtual code. It's not a no limit fallacy, it's a statement on the nature of the battlefield, and the fact that they don't need unlimited ability in altering code as Thanos and Bor have no defense against even the limited abilities shown given the nature of the battlefield and the fact their real world durability is a non-factor. For example, say Thanos raises a forcefield. Given the nature of the Matrix Neo or Smith could just stick their hands through it, or dive through it, because the forcefield doesn't really exist, and both Neo and Smith know it doesn't really exist because it's simply a virtual representation of what Thanos's forcefield would be and is in fact just Matrix code they can alter (which has a precedent in the films with Neo's diving into Smith, Neo phasing his hand into Trinity's virtual self to extract the bullets and restart her heart, and Smith sticking his fingers/hands into numerous people to overwrite them).

But anyway, I've pretty much said my piece on this topic and am pretty much repeating myself at this point, so I'm just bowing out. My position on the matter has been presented.

Thanos outcode the shit out of the Matrix. He's taking over.

Wow...

Just want to give MF DELPH a big
to his contribution to this thread...

After reading your point of view, I now firmly believe that Neo and Smith should win; good job!

Well, I took the OP to mean that while Thanos and Bor would be in the Matrix for this fight, they aren't hardwired in the same sense that unawakened people are. Hardwired people and programs are much more vulnerable to code manipulation (Smith getting exploded, Neo losing his mouth) than people who get jacked-in don't seem to be. It makes sense, and is reinforced in the text that, there would be a difference between being part of the program and visiting the program.

If Thanos is not hardwired, Neo and Smith have to physically touch him to affect his code. You could argue that, hypothetically, they don't need to touch, but I'm going by what we've seen on screen.

So, how do they touch him? Thanos has much better reflexes than them. Maybe they could, hypothetically, freeze his energy blasts in mid air (I think their ability to manipulate code is not on that scale, thus why they never stop big things) but to do so, they would have to be able to react to his firing it off at close range. Heralds can't manage that.

All the reality warping in the world doesn't help if you can't react to an attack that will one-shot you.

I'm having trouble understanding why this isn't a colossal rage stomp for the Marvel Team.

Thanos' powers are vastly above what Agent Smith and Neo are capable off. If you pluck him up and drop him in the Matrix, he'll be just as powerful as he is now (maybe even more so considering his ego and inflated sense of self worth) because in the Matrix you can do anything as long as you believe it is possible. Thanos' default setting is above the likes of Neo and Smith... his powers would be passively rewriting Matrix code without him being conscious of it in order to replicate how his powers function in reality. Like if Molecule Man was in the Matrix he would have a vastly greater control over the Matrix than Neo did... and he wouldn't even realize it. That level of control is just what he believes is normal for him.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I'm having trouble understanding why this isn't a colossal rage stomp for the Marvel Team.

The way that I understand it, it's because Neo/Smith reality warp by manipulating code. Thanos and Bor are made of code on this battlefield. Thus, Thanos' power advantage is negated. To a certain extent, this is a fine argument. For instance, Neo doens't need to be strong to hurt Thanos. Thanos' durability is irrelevant if Neo can just dive into his "being."



I was just thinking of this. I think the idea is that Neo/Smith act on the reality of the Matrix, while someone like Molecule Man, despite his greater power, would be acting on a false perception of the reality of the Matrix, they would still have an advantage. His power would still manifest in code. Whether or not that would make a "real" difference is starting to seem like a philosophical question.

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
The way that I understand it, it's because Neo/Smith reality warp by manipulating code. Thanos and Bor are made of code on this battlefield. Thus, Thanos' power advantage is negated. To a certain extent, this is a fine argument. For instance, Neo doens't need to be strong to hurt Thanos. Thanos' durability is irrelevant if Neo can just dive into his "being."



I was just thinking of this. I think the idea is that Neo/Smith act on the reality of the Matrix, while someone like Molecule Man, despite his greater power, would be acting on a false perception of the reality of the Matrix, they would still have an advantage. His power would still manifest in code. Whether or not that would make a "real" difference is starting to seem like a philosophical question.

Seems like a completely arbitrary distinction to me TBH.

Originally posted by Digi
I just don't think we can assume Thanos's inherent knowledge of technology would cause him to override the Matrix somehow. I see this as a mental battle entirely, which won't include Thanos's traditional feats.

His formidable intellect is what would keep him in the fight, but it's because he'd manifest some comparably powerful displays in the Matrix, not because of his "real world" feats. If you think that Thanos is smart enough to manipulate the Matrix to a win, good on you, I won't argue. But my opinion is that the literal gods of the Matrix would trump him in their own universe. They're fighting in computer code, and the code is written to make Neo (and thus Smith) essentially unstoppable.

Wouldn't there be a hardware and/or computing issue in this battle? The Matrix was designed to handle humans and accepts from relatively minor cheat codes. What's going to happen when Bor hits something and is supposed to level a city block? Or tries to cast a magic spell? What if Thanos tries to disintegrate Agent Smith? Do either one of them have extrasensory abilities? As far as I know, Bor's page time was pretty short lived and I don't know much about Thanos so I don't know about him. What are they going to do when Thanos can't see into the chocolate dimension anymore and Bor doesn't hear the Valkyries of Valhalla singing sweet Zep tunes? It doesn't seem like the Matrix was made to handle things like magic and whatnot.

That seems like it's either A) A dead giveaway to the Marvel team that they aren't in Kansas anymore and it gives them a much better understanding of what's going on, and thus a better chance, or B) Thanos and Bor are getting their balls clipped off and this is stupid.

Also, you know how people struggle and flop around in their internet chairs when they're doing tough stuff in the Matrix? Would Bor and Thanos blow theirs up by accident from charging themselves up in the Matrix?

Originally posted by Doctor-Alvis
Also, you know how people struggle and flop around in their internet chairs when they're doing tough stuff in the Matrix? Would Bor and Thanos blow theirs up by accident from charging themselves up in the Matrix?

Valid point.

The machines are able to restrain humans in the real world and manipulate their brain functions. I don't recall anything in the real world capable of restraining either of them. It's possible the Matrix wouldn't be able to handle the likes of Bor and Thanos manifesting their powers.

Originally posted by Uriel005
No. His being the one was not a created event. Just one that was planned for, hence systemic anomaly. Intelligence has nothing to do with being the one, it is the questioning of reality and the acceptance that the reality of the matrix is false combined with x-factors
Rewatch the Matrix 2 at the end and you will see that the Architect says he and the Queen (the Oracle) that they created Neo in order to solve the problem of the Matrix. You also see the many Neos that came before that Neo in past Matrices and learn that Neo has a unique code inside him that allows him to manipulate the Matrix while being inside it and outside it.


Originally posted by Diesldude
Thanos can't die because of a virtual reality program. His avatar can die but the real thanos inside the pod can't die and so his avatar will be resurrected. Thanos is also too smart and will figure out his whereabouts and use the links which are connected to him within the pod and take over the matrix.

Humans in the pods who are unaware of the matrix when woken are = to their real selves. The people who woke from the pod are as strong as they were when they were within the Matrix. So the avatars of Bor and Thanos will have their powers within the matrix.

And if they don't, Bor knows he is a God and behave as if he was a God and this alone will allow him to bend the matrix to his will. This is without even knowing that they are in the matrix.
If he realizes that he is a God in a computer, he can wake up and destroy the hardware.
Team 2 wins easy.

Team 1 wins only if Matrix is the only reality - no computer hardware, just the virtual world. This will pit Bor and Thanos against the supreme beings of the Matrix and they will lose.

You make a lot of sense with your first part about Thanos. But death is a win on kmc, even if someone doesn't stay dead. But you are clearly off with the Bor part. Morpheus, Trinity, and others knew that the matrix can be bent. It takes more than belief to do this. You can believe you are TOAA in the matrix and still can't achieve Morpheus level.

A big thing here is if we're going by feats or assumed power sets based on what we know. (basically PIS)

If we go by what we've seen on screen (PIS) then thanos would stomp them. Like was said we see Neo just go super fast or be super strong. When Trinity was DYING Neo didn't even teleport to her. He just flew at like super sonic speeds. He didn't snap his fingers and disintegrate the bullet, he "physically" dug it out of her.

In the fight with Smith which should have been all out, we see the collateral damage of their fight be on par with like an average showing of like thor or something.

Based on that and assuming the matrix translates their powers to the matrix (as was said before, if not that'd just be stupid and this would be a stomp for neo/smith) thanos should be able to just speed blitz and destroy neo/smith. They'd just reform and come back but we're assuming death is a win right?

Now if we go by power sets and basically take out PIS, then it's at least a fight but pretty much impossible to really gauge. Now I'm pretty sure Thanos could figure out he's in the matrix pretty quickly. And belief is at least a large part of what gives you powers in the matrix. All the people they pull out get some reality warping power and that power doesn't seem to have been designed into the matrix like the power all the neo's had. So it seems like it's possible for thanos to give himself neo like powers pretty easy. We just dont know how far he could go with it.

The movies seem to say neo could control anything he wanted in the matrix though. We never see any of this but that's his potential. I feel like we don't do potential very often on this forum so I'm still reluctant to give him the win in this scenario. But I think that's the crux of the debate. Neo is suppose to be the God of the matrix, but we just don't see it. I feel other characters discussed on this forum are treated the same way if we don't see any feats to back up what the character is suppose to be capable of.

Thanos pretty much fought in the Matrix already when he entered a guy's brain and killed him

He was doing flips and shit

nutnut

Originally posted by bobbi
A big thing here is if we're going by feats or assumed power sets based on what we know. (basically PIS)

If we go by what we've seen on screen (PIS) then thanos would stomp them. Like was said we see Neo just go super fast or be super strong. When Trinity was DYING Neo didn't even teleport to her. He just flew at like super sonic speeds. He didn't snap his fingers and disintegrate the bullet, he "physically" dug it out of her.

In the fight with Smith which should have been all out, we see the collateral damage of their fight be on par with like an average showing of like thor or something.

Based on that and assuming the matrix translates their powers to the matrix (as was said before, if not that'd just be stupid and this would be a stomp for neo/smith) thanos should be able to just speed blitz and destroy neo/smith. They'd just reform and come back but we're assuming death is a win right?

Now if we go by power sets and basically take out PIS, then it's at least a fight but pretty much impossible to really gauge. Now I'm pretty sure Thanos could figure out he's in the matrix pretty quickly. And belief is at least a large part of what gives you powers in the matrix. All the people they pull out get some reality warping power and that power doesn't seem to have been designed into the matrix like the power all the neo's had. So it seems like it's possible for thanos to give himself neo like powers pretty easy. We just dont know how far he could go with it.

The movies seem to say neo could control anything he wanted in the matrix though. We never see any of this but that's his potential. I feel like we don't do potential very often on this forum so I'm still reluctant to give him the win in this scenario. But I think that's the crux of the debate. Neo is suppose to be the God of the matrix, but we just don't see it. I feel other characters discussed on this forum are treated the same way if we don't see any feats to back up what the character is suppose to be capable of.

Neo got weaker in the 2nd and 3rd Matrix in order to keep a story. Remember that at the end of the first Matrix movie that Neo was able to easily destroy an Agent without having to fight him.

Also, it is understood that both Thanos and Bor don't take their powers with them to the matrix. They must manipulate the matrix on a higher level than Neo or Smith in order to outdo them. As far as I'm concerned Thanos and Bor lose immediately since Neo would destroy them before they properly learned how to manipulate the Matrix on Neo's level.

Yea, it's not like these guys are Doom.

He would take over the Matrix within minutes.

Originally posted by Mindset
Yea, it's not like these guys are Doom.

He would take over the Matrix within minutes.



And that's lowballing him, too.

Originally posted by Mindset
Yea, it's not like these guys are Doom.

He would take over the Matrix within minutes.

Thanos's tech, prep, intelligence and willpower feats are comparable or better to Doom's, and he has vastly more raw power.