Letters vs Dum Dum Dugan BattleZone

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Dum Dum Dugan
Letters will be backing Batman

Dum Dum Dugan will be backing Wolverine

This is a non prep match. The rules are standard KMC non prep rules. So they each have standard equipment, no PIS, CIS is on ect.

The Battle Zone will start at 6 pm (Mountain Time, so in 10minutes) and will last 1 Month. There is a 20 post limit each. However administrative post like for example this post are not counted in a post totals. Only debating posts.

The judges are Bada, Leo and PR

Batman vs Wolverine is a matchup that on paper, may seem to be out of the realm of possibility for Batman to win. Wolverine is a mutant with admantium skeleton a healing factor and deadly lethal claws, while Batman is only human after all. However, if we delve into Batmans true capabilities, we shall see that Batman is much more than just "only" human.

Batmans greatest weapon is his mind. In a standard arena Batman will be able to see the lethal little Wolverine has 12 inch claws and know he will have to stay away from him until he knows exactly what he's dealing with.

Considering Batmans master deductive ability he will know Wolverines full capabilities early on and be able to defeat him with skill, gadgets, and clever tactics, all in combination with each other. This will prove to be greater than Wolverines standard "swing my claws at the other guy" strategy.

Part 1: Martial Arts skills comparison

Batmans record is nearly the best for any street leveler in all of comicdom.

Batmans winning records on Top 10 martial artists and peers of the Top 10 martial artists:

Cassandra Cain
Lady Shiva
David Cain
Master Haim
Manhunter (Paul Kirkman)

Batmans even record with peers of the Top 10 and above:

Karate Kid !!! (This guy fights Daxamites and Supergirl evenly)


Batmans losing record with peers of the top 10:

Bronze Tiger - Batman has stalemated this guy twice as well. Bronze Tiger has also stalemated Deathstroke.

Wolverines record is not as stellar unfortunately

Winning record:

Iron fist- * during an exhibition match with no claws or Iron Fist while both characters were considerably holding back. Perhaps not a real win but should be mentioned nontheless.

Captain America- possibly his most impressive win, also proves that pressure points and soft tissue attacks (tendons ligaments etc.) can be damaged for extended periods of time.

And that's it. That is Wolvies winning record on peers of the Top 10

Wolverines even record:

Shang Chi- one win one loss.

Daken * Daken is prolly on the lower skill level around Punisher level, and is about equal on average with Wolverine. - Lost due to stab wounds.

Mr X- proves Logan can be knocked out.

Wolverines losing record:

Daredevil - a clear step above Wolverine. Out of 4 fights Wolvie only looked superior once.

X23- Shows Wolverine depending on his HF too much while X23 uses a clever tactic to nullify the HF

Punisher- Wolverine lost to an explosion.

Wolverines other notable showings:

Vs Elektra also proves that Wolverine can be affected by nerve strikes and neck stabs.

Vs Kitty Pride possessed by Ogun. Susceptible to stab wounds.

Vs No name black special ops guy with laser claws. Susceptible to stab wounds. Wolverine collapses due to extreme exhuastion.

As we can see, Batmans resume is far more extensive and impressive than that of Wolverines in skill comparisons with other similarly skilled opponents. And Batman doesn't have a healing factor either, we must reach the logical conclusion that Batman is a step above Wolverine in the martial arts skill department.

Now, it has also been argued for the pro Wolverine side that Logan has the potential to kill Batman in one attack. However, the same can be said about any of the street levelers that Wolverine has lost to; Daredevil, Shang Chi, Mr X, Captain America, why hasn't Wolverine killed these guys when they have fought? And they have had extensive fights.

Batman will not be so easy to put down either.

Here Batman absorbs a potential killing move while outskilling his opponent- a ninja assassin trained by Master Kirigi.



Batman absorbing potentially lethal stab wounds while fighting Zeiss.





Probably the most relevant example. Batman fights a highly skilled opponent named Feast with enhanced stats and HF very similar to Wolverines.




Here Bats absorbs another killing move while displaying superfast reflexes.



These examples prove that Batman can survive multiple stab wounds and keep on fighting AND win.

Part 2: Gadgets

Batman can immobilize Wolverine. While immobilized Batman can gain the advantage while Wolvie tries to free himself.


Batmans tazer is strong enough to KO a giant alien.




Batman carries morphine strong enough to KO Plague, one of the 4 horsemen that Black Adam fought in WW3. If the morphine does not KO Wolvie it will at least disorient him during the fight, giving Batman the advantage.




Batman destroys Doomsday clones with explosive batarangs. embarrasment


More explosive Batarangs that hurt a prototype Amazo. Also displays Batmans speed as Amazo has Flash speed here.





Batman can grapple Wolvie, throw acid in his face, then kick im!!!


Any single gadget may not be enough to stop Wolverine. However, multiple gadgets in combination with Batmans superior martial arts will prove too much for the damage soaking mutant.

Part 3: Clever Tactics

Vs Azreal. Many people know about Jean Paul Valley replacing Batman after Knightfall. Many people do not know after Bruce came back JPV mastered The System - the genetically encoded program to make him the most fomidable assassin in The Order of Saint Dumas- making him a solid midtier threat.







Batman defeats the powered up version of Azreal using knock out darts and Martial Arts skills.








Vs Zeiss

Some background info on Zeiss.



Batman defeats Zeiss with the help of a skillfull Batarang toss in combination with his skills.





Now imagine if that was an exploding Batarang in Wolverines eyeball.

More fight and gadget combos vs Vandal Savage, an immortal that literally cannot die.






Vs the JLA embarrasment







As we can see Batman is smart enough to know what he's dealing with before rushing in and fighting Wolverine hand to hand. Batman will survey the situation and use his skill and gadgets in combination to overcome him.

I will also counter any and all arguments by Dum Dum with sound logic and evidence. NONE of my counter points will include the word PIS.

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Batman may not have Wolverines blatant superhuman stats but he is close enough to keep up. He also has something Wolverine does not have, being the greatest MA in the DCU.

Here is a profile saying Batman is the greatest MA alive:

I've never seen a profile saying Wolverine is the greatest MA alive.

Since you mentioned Marvel vs DC. Here Iceman comments on Batmans speed. "Hes too fast!". Also reacts to Canonball's superspeed attack.

This is a speed feat for Sabretooth if anything as Wolverine is getting owned here.

Gambit, who is about as fast as Wolverine dodges pretty much the same attack.

There is a clear skill difference here, and Gambit isnt even a top 10er.

Batman amazes Green Arrow with his speed.

This is inconsistent with Wolverines own track record with Cyclops blasts as Cyclops has been able to blast him many times. Especially in their last fight which was a stalemate. Wolverine has only been able to defeat Cyclops with the aid of a magical sword which helped deflect the blasts.

Batman defeating super gorilla soldiers that have quasi-telekenetic abilities:

Judging how Batman performed on the second page he prolly took out those first gorillas at least as effeciently as Wolverine his humans. Also shows how tactical he is as the JLA was heading right into Grodds trap until he stops them. Then Superman screws it up lol.

Many street levelers close to Wolverines speed have hit Spiderman from Cap and DareDevil to Punisher. While impressive how about Batman proving to have better reflexes than genuine speedsters like kid flash (Wally West) and Donna Troy, while destroying Roy Harpers arrow before he can shoot?

Batman is also hypnotized/mind controlled thus making him less skilled and generally not as good. Right Dum Dum?

Batman is fast enough to react to Johnny Quick, an alternate evil version of the Flash.

While his attack fails and is nullified by Quick it proves that Batman is fast enough to react to genuine speedsters.

Did you forget about this one? Batman is fast enough to react to Flash (Barry Allen).

Batman has faster than eyeblink reaction times. Thats right. Not eyeblink reaction times. FASTER then eyeblink reaction times.

Batman literally punches a bullet out of the air.

Wonder Woman style bullet blocking.

Batman proves more than fast enough to take out a meta human who can create force fields with his mind before the meta can react or even think to form any force fields with his mind which is very fast.

There is no Cyclops comparison in the DCU however Batman has proven capable of hitting a target that was deemed impossible by the world's best assassin Deathstroke despite his super human abilities.

Batman's speed feats prove that he's more than capable of defending against and countering Logan's speed. That combined with his Batmans unmatched stealth will be enough take down Logan.

As far as Deathstroke goes, their last battle ended with Batman dominating and KOing Slade before Slade could even get the chance to use his sword so blitzing won't work under normal circumstances.

Superman and Hal Jordan have called Batman the most dangerous man in the world because of his mind as well as many other characters. There's no question that Batman is a smarter and more clever fighter which is why he's the tactical and strategic leader of the JLA.

That is just plain untrue. Batman has plenty of options from a good old fashioned hogtie (assuming he is presented with the opportunity) to drugs and chemicals and expanding capture foam to Doomsday Clone and Amazo busting explosives. Its over for Wolverine if he is incinerated as that would count as a loss, unless we are granting enough time for Wolverine to heal, which would be ridiculous.

Batman is very likely to use stealth, speed, skill, and weaponry (like using gas to block/confuse his senses) to keep his distance easily.

Wolverine has been tagged repeatedly by A-list MAs and people slower than Batman like the Punisher so even if he did get close its not like Bruce wouldn't be able to use his skill to defend himself and land damaging attacks. Like so:

Notice how a skilled placement of a bullet can hurt Wolverine and disable movement. Batman could easily replicate that with a Batarang provided the opprtunity of course. Now I am sure there are other times when Wolverine has taken worse bullets to the leg, but are any of those guys more skilled with a placement of a bullet than Punisher? (possible but probobly not)

Now if Wolverine gets close:

Notice how Punisher is able to dodge Wolverines claws and immediatly retaliate.

Not only that but Punisher didn't have to get close to Logan. Frank could have started firing from farther away giving him more of an advantage. Again provided you think Batman is skilled enough to do the same with a Batarang, explosive or otherwise.

Wolverine doesnt have the best record of dodging stuff. Here are some similar gadgets that Batman can use that Wolverine hasn't dodged.

For how skilled Wolverine is he cant read Nick Fury's moves. Hes isnt gonna have a prayer reading Batmans moves.

He cant dodge his grapple gun or Batrope.

He can't dodge his gas attack or gas bombs

Notice how the gas affects him. BLINDED! DAZED!

Notice how Wolverine cant hit Fury while affected by the gas. Batman would take major advantage here. Using nerve strikes and explosive batarangs and tranquilizers or getting on top of him getting him in a submission hold like a joint lock. The only possible way to escape it would be to break ones own bone, and since Wolverines bones cant be broken Batman can keep him in a joint lock indefinetly until the match is over.

Finally his vision is clear. He hits Fury from behind as he escapes the darkness of the shack. He states that Fury could beat him on any given day, confirming Wolverines skill level as somewhere below the top 10.

While Wolverine is using all of his skills he cant dodge Furys electrical device.

Notice how Fury gives Wolverine a chance to recover and surrender. Batman wont be doing that. He could get on top of him while he is stunned from the tazer and hold him down like so, winning the fight.

An explosion happens freeing Wolverine.

Here Wolverine confirms he was paralyzed due to Elektras nerve strikes. Elektra also highly damages Wolvies neck, something Batman could easily duplicate with a couple of Batarangs used as melee weapons.

(I only mention the Elektra fight because it displays 2 valid ways for Wolverine to be incapacitated by Batman.)

Back to the Fury fight. Wolverine cant dodge the tazer again.

Wolverine finally overpowers the tazer and destroys it due to Fury being blinded from the effect of the tazer. Wolverine wont be able to do that to Batman as he is much faster and more skilled than Fury, that and Batmans electrical devices won't have a blinding effect on its user.

Notice how Wolverine doesnt even defeat him as the the tazers feedback KO's Fury. This kind of defect would never happen to one of Batmans gadgets. Not to mention this fight would be over before that had Fury not given Wolverine the chance to recover. Batman will take advantage of the situation imediatley as he is ruthless like that, and it will be an easier fight than Nick Fury had as he has better stamina, is faster and more skilled than an old Nick Fury past his prime.

Now I am sure there are more recent examples of Logan being unaffected by gas and electricity, especially with modern performances of the HF, but we have to consider than Batmans gadgets are going to be top of the line and prolly more powerful than Fury's equipment thus possibly evening out with Wolverine's more powerful HF nowadays.

You never challenged Prometheus.

Who is on your Top Ten list for DC? And might as well give me your list for Marvel as well.


Detective Comics #734 shows Bruce defeating Cass in a sparring contest of skill as they're seen using Cain's suicide drill.

Batgirl #50 had Batman holding back but also dominating Cass in hth combat at one point before NW interfered. Batman purposely led Cass around the city so they could work out their problems and used their fight as a form of therapy (since violence is a language Cass best understands) as explained at the end of the comic.

Plus, Batman normally holds back against his Bat Family members as seen in his battles against Robin (Tim), Batgirl (Steph), and Nightwing.

Also, Batgirl and Azrael combined proved unable to physically stop a bloodlusted Batman as shown in Gotham Knights when the Key unlocked his will to kill:

Here is his superior skill showing against Batgirl:

While its true they were communicating at first thru fighting, the suicide run part was a clear display of skill to see who would go on to fight David Cain. Batman proved better.

Compare that to the Wolverine vs Iron Fist sparring match and they are at least equal showings. Batmans may be more impressive as Jim Gordons life was in danger (Two face hired Cain to kill him). Which means both Batman and Batgirl would be trying their hardest to have the best chance of defeating Cain.

Compared to the Wolvie vs IF exhibition match where there was nothing at stake and both characters stated they were holding back.


This was before the Superman Batman fight they had so this doesn't matter.

SHIVA cont.

Batman had gone through a gauntlet of super villains back to back literally alongside Superman including having just beaten Solomon Grundy who nearly drowned him (or appeared as though he almost did anyway). Right after taking down Grundy we saw Shiva sneak attacking Batman who's attention was on Grundy. Batman had zero time to recover in between fights so he wasn't in peak condition anyway so if anything Batman despite being handicapped proved he was still able to defeat Shiva.

Notice here how Batman speculates Shiva may not even be mind controlled and Batman doesn't notice a difference in her skill. Shiva is also skilled enough to kick Batman after the sucker shot. She also displays high level combat speed in classic speed blitz fashion which she has never done before showing she is still massivley skilled. http://s289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/Martial%20Arts/Battles/?action=view&current=supermanbatman3-batvshiva2.jpg

Mind controlled or not this fight proved that Bruce is capable of defeating Shiva or a fighter with Shiva's level of raw skill even if a battle between them wouldn't go down like this everytime.

I find it hilarious you are comparing young Bucky, the equivalent of a young Robin, to David Cain lol. How many Top 10ers does he have to train besides Batman and Batgirl? And he was considered a peer to Shiva and Bronze Tiger in Rais Al Ghuls original League of Assassins.

Bucky (the adult Bucky aka Winter Soldier) has gotten the upper hand on Logan by blocking his senses (rendering his sight half blind and covering his body in ink) then ambushing him (handcuffing him) and beating him down despite Logan going berserk to boot. However, Logan does manage to regain the upper hand in their battle (just barely) before Logan is taken out by sniper bullets from outside interference but Bucky looked very good in this battle:
If Batman manages to handcuff Wolverine he wont be able to break them as they have been able to restrain Cheetah:
As for Cain, feats speak louder than words.
Stalemates Batman in their first fight. Most of the fight is off panel but you can see they are both bleeding equally.
David Cain defeats Deadshot after not eating for 2 weeks straight:
Deadshot gets the drop on him and shoots him. Cain is also handcuffed. Despite all this Cain quickley defeats Deadshot.
Vs Batgirl
His most impressive melee combat showing although he does lose.
Still, Notice how fast Batman defeats Cain compared to Batgirl:
Cain stalemates Deathstroke. (Happens off panel)
I dont know how much more impressive you need for him to be to be a Top 10er.
Zeiss has 2 stalemates on Batman and enhanced speed and reflexes, just because they are artificial doesn't mean he doesnt have the speed and skill. He also prepped specifically for Batman.

Here is their 2nd to last fight.

Now, if Zeiss isnt such a threat, why would Batman need Batgirl around if he could handle him by himself? If he needed slightly more help he could have got Robin, or Nightwing, but no, he brought in Batgirl specifically just for Zeiss.

Saying all that tho I can see why you dont agree that Zeiss is a Top 10er as he doesnt have the feats nor history. Zeiss is impressive to me because he has prepped specifically in regards to Batmans skill and has bonafide superhuman reflexes/speed, and in turn so does Batman.

He is not an officially ranked Top 10 since we haven't seen Haim appear outside this story arc but it doesn't change the fact that the feats we saw from Master Haim prove that he's an MA easily on the same level as Batman and even mastered a death strike technique that only 7 people in the world knew how to use or even had knowledge of how to defend against.

At the very least we can say that Haim was equal to Batman in skill based on the fact that they were shown to be evenly matched when they fought in hth combat.
Here are his feats:
Easily catches an arrow from Merlyn who actually outperformed Green Arrow in arrow skillz in the same story.
Owns a couple of the worlds best MA's just for show.
I dont know about you, but i have never seen anystreet leveler in Marvel or DC grab and hold a sword with his 2 fingers like that. Top 10ers most times have to grab a sword by clapping their hands together.

Owns Ollie.

Haim vs Batman

I thought all Post-Crisis showings were allowed since we don't have enough Post-Flashpoint showings from Batman to draw on yet. Besides most of Batmans Pre-Crisis showings are still valid as his continuity wasnt changed much. In fact, the only thing that was changed was Batman being a student of Richard Dragon.

Has Yukio fought an A-list martial artist like Batman to a stalemate or displayed his high level of knowledge and technique/skill (probably not)? Haim easily killed two of the best MAs at the time including easily beating Green Arrow with 1 touch of his finger.


While Sensei's stamina was a factor it should be noted that Bruce did not win because he outlasted him as The Sensei was clearly still fighting all the way to the end.

Bruce didn't defeat The Sensei in hth combat but he did however outsmart The Sensei proving that his mind is his most dangerous weapon. And he did so while blind, having his arm broken and impaled thru the gut. It shows how resourceful Batman is against a blatantly more skilled opponent.

Blocking and dodging a few moves isn't what I would call a real stalemate or getting the better of Stick as you put it (I don't even know how you came to this conclusion) but is it a good showing of Logan's skill since he wasn't beaten and held his own. Plus, Stick's purpose for being there and attacking Logan wasn't to defeat him but rather help him out similar to what Elektra was doing with Logan just prior to this showing a few issues back (IIRC). If anyone was holding back it was actually Stick.

The Sensei in comparison has centuries of combat experience and was actually out for the kill against Batman yet still failed whereas Stick was clearly holding back and attempting to help Logan out.

Now since Stick has even skill with The Sensei as you have compared them, if Batman switched places with Wolverine, and Stick was going for the kill, its very possible Batman could have outsmarted Stick the same way he did The Sensei and thrown him into the fire.

How impressive would that be iyo?


Azreal has nearly 50 issues under his belt as Batman, a multipart crossover dedicated to him in which Bruce had to train with Shiva and defeat the Masters of 7 different ninja clans of the worlds best MA's just for him to be good enough to come back and defeat Azreal. And Azreal has another 100 issue solo series after that filled with blatant superhuman speed and strength showings.

I do agree that Az isn't top 10 in MA skill but would be considered to be a peer of the top 10 fighters in general due to his super human stats and his battle computer like fighting program- The System.

Azreal stalemates Slade until Slade is taken out from outside interference. Slade mentions that Azreal has no technique yet Azreal is still able to match him, even with no formal training most likely indicating that The System could compensate for any lack in skill. He is at least as strong as Slade before Azrael's last 2 power ups btw which makes it even more impressive.

Vs Bane

Had a slight upper hand on Bane even before Bane's head hit the wall and Azrael finished him off.


Hawkman hasn't fought any top tier MAs outside of Batman that I'm aware of so I can see why you wouldn't consider him a Top 10, however, Hawkman does still have nth metal in belt and boots that gives him super human stats which is what makes Batman defeating him impressive. Hawkman also got in a suckershot and Batman won while mind controlled making it even more impressive as he was significantly less skilled here, right Dum Dum?

He's also easily subdued Hawkgirl while holding back:

Here's what Lady Shiva mentions about Batman's skill as he's known around the world

Even underwater they're aware of who he is according to King Shark

In the future, his skills are said to be fabled on the ground according to Karate Kid who's the greatest MA in the universe at the time which can seen at the beginning of their brave and the bold fight. Which i will post in a bit.


Bane has defeated a pre-Rip Nightwing (who is defintely top 10) in hth combat, easily overpowered Catman, defeated Azrael, has managed to give Batman 2 tough fights (he's never beaten Bruce fairly though), and has taken out the meta human brothers Thunder and Lightning (who have given the Teen Titans a hard time) despite taking a lightning blast to boot.

And since Marvel vs DC is accepted feats, Bane manhandles Captain America into a backbreaker postion nearly defeating him (Cap only won due to a lucky sheild toss). Notice that Bane is not using venom and Captain America hasn't gone thru weeks of physical exhaustion.


lol. You are right it was Kirk Depaul. Kirk was trianed by Asano Nitobe (an old master of the DCU on par with Sensei, O'Sensei, and Master Kirigi). Manhunter was formidable enough to get the upper hand on Nightwing who fled their battle before there was a finish with DePaul looking as the superior combatant despite NW using gas with no effect due to DePaul's healing factor.

Anyway i thought id bring him up as he has superhuman stats and a healing factor, and Batman did easily defeat him.


Bruce stalemated Karate Kid (Post-Crisis Waid version) in a anti-gravity martial arts battle having to adapt on the fly (literally not being experienced in such combat as noted by KK himself) since he was ambushed by Karate Kid to begin with in mid air. The fight itself was a page long not a few panels short with them both landing attacks and countering each other's attacks which proves they were evenly matched before their fight was broken up. This is the same Karate Kid who was capable of going 1 on 1 with Ultra Boy and took out Micro Lad using just skill.

Regarding Pre-Crisis Karate Kid's "medical issue", the virus hadn't fully spread throughout his system plus he didn't show any signs of being weakened until much later on in the Countdown series. Matter of fact, in the same issue we see him get pumped full of drugs that were "strong enough to slow down Wonder Woman" and he's still able to talk which amazed the leaguers. In the same story arc, we see Val prove fast enough to even duck a lightning bolt which tells us the virus definitely had no affect on his preformance. Even more impressive, later on in Countdown we see him trash Equus who's powerful enough and specially designed to battle Superman himself despite being infected by the virus.

As far as the fight goes, we saw Batman draw blood against pre-crisis Karate Kid by landing 2 powerful punches (something that even a super powerful being like Equus couldn't do when they 1st fought), skillfully block his sneak attack after Val had just taken out Black Lightning with 1 blow, plus withstand every attack Karate Kid used against him and still wasn't defeated despite what should be a HUGE gap in skill between the two. Yet, according to Clark it wasn't that big of difference with Bruce being being rated a 12 and Karate Kid a 15 in combat ability.

How many super elite MAs like Karate Kid (either one) has Logan at least stalemated with PURE skill like Batman has?


Deathstroke is definitely top 10 he's just not top 5. If Slade wasn't a top 10 level MA he wouldn't be able to defeat fighters like Batman or Nightwing despite his physical advantages as they've beaten super humans in hth combat numerous times before. It's Slade's physical stats combined with his skill/combat training plus his ruthlessness that give him an advantage over top tier fighters like Batman in hth combat.

Slade has MA training under Natas who's the same MA master that Green Arrow trained under.

True that Slade does have a winning record against Batman in hth combat (2-1 in Slade's favor) and I admit I was incorrect about his record against Slade as you pointed out, but you are definitely leaving a lot of the details out:

You won't be able to name even one street level fighter that has done the huge amount of damage to Deathstroke that Batman did in the fight you used above. In that fight, Bruce just using his hth skill seriously hurt Deathstroke despite Slade having a healing factor and pointing out that it would take days to heal up from the wounds Batman inflicted on him in their battle. The damage done to Slade was so bad that right afterwards he couldn't even properly defend himself against a man with his hands tied up and was almost killed had he not been saved.

Batman actually wrestled Slade to the ground the last time they fought, dominated him, and then KOed him before he could even use his sword.

Outside of using Slade's rifle like a baseball bat to KO him, Batman has NEVER used his own weaponry/gadgets to take him out fairly and has still proven capable of besting Slade in melee combat as shown in the last real 1 on 1 battle. Meanwhile, Batman actually has managed to disarm Slade of his weaponry just about everytime they're fought although he's never chosen to use any of his own.

Batman has KOed Slade with a surprise attack via a kick despite his super human stats which proves how hard he hits and something no other street level combatant or many people in general meta human or otherwise have achieved against Slade.


True most of the fight was off panel and Owlman is not Top 10 on DC proper earth, he is however at the very top strategic mind in his own universe and is also the strategic leader of the Injustice Gang and has been shown to be near equal to Batman in tactical battle planning.

At the very least we can say that Batman matched someone as tactical and strategic as him, as Owlman is still above Wolverine in the combat strategy dept.


Black Widow, Storm, and Bishop have gotten the better of Logan in sparring contests (or stalemated him) that doesn't make them more skilled or better fighters then him. Also, I'm not convinced that Danny was out to prove himself as much as Logan was in that sparring contest still Logan did win fairly.

Even so, Bruce has bested Cassandra Cain in a pure skill showing with higher stakes involved and gotten the better of her when they fought one other time. We've seen Danny best Logan before in hth combat when the X-Men attacked him in his own series. However, I will acknowledge that Logan's skill level wasn't fully established yet but still it shouldn't be overlooked since Logan doesn't normally use his hth skill as much as other A-lister MAs do anyway (even so, Batman is still a superior MA).

In addition, Logan's mutant abilities and his adamantium give him an unfair advantage out the gate against all non-enhanced fighters which makes it hard to gauge what's truly skill on his part most times.

Overall imo Iron Fist is the more skilled of the two considering he fought evenly with the Gorgon recently while Wolverine has been handled by the Gorgon at least twice. Iron Fists showing against Mr X proves this as well.


Captain America was actually winning their fight in Origins and was even overpowering Logan on the ground (crushing the tendons in Logan's forearms so his claw wouldn't work) until Logan cleverly used a move to incapacitate Cap and win. Even looking at the 2nd fight they had in the next Origins issue we see Cap dominating their battle again until the pain in Cap's leg gets the better of him.

Wolverine was not engaged in a gauntlet of enemies back to back like Batman was when he fought Lady Shiva in Superman Batman and had plenty of time in between if you read the story arc. As far as Nuke goes, he was actually beaten pretty quickly with Logan suffering not much damage at all before Cap showed up. Given Logan's healing factor and how short that battle with Nuke lasted I doubt it had any effect on Logan's performance against Cap otherwise Logan would've said so.

Demon possessed Wolverine vs Dr. Strange:

Dr. Strange uses martial arts moves to block, dodge, and land attacks against a magically possessed Logan who was trying to kill Strange who in turn used a silver dagger to take him down breaking Logan's mind control.


While I agree that their first fight was more of a sparring match it was still a contest of fighting ability in which Logan lost because he was fighting like a brawler instead of a focused martial artist (which is how he beat Sabretooth). This fight only goes to show that Logan fighting in his usual furious brawler style wouldn't work against a A-list MA like Batman and that someone as smart as Bruce using the environment to his advantage can definitely gain the upper hand.

You missed the part where Logan points out how he has enhanced senses and a healing factor to boot. And his healing factor was at the highest it could be at the time as the admantium was not constantly poisoning his body as you have pointed out.

Unfortunatley this no longer matters now that the admantium is back and thus poisoning his immune system returning his healing factor to standard levels(altho it has improved since the old days).

Being such an avid Wolverine fan I am surprised you did not know this.

Anyway, regarding the last Shang Chi fight, I'd hardly call that being more skilled if we're judging things fairly. He's a better hth combatant most definitely due to obvious superior physical stats and mutant abilities on top of being highly skilled himself (which Shang points out) but a better overall MA then Shang? I'm not convinced of that at all. I'd say Batman defeating Shiva was just as impressive given the fact that Bruce had a disadvantage going into that fight which was unexpected. And Batman doesnt have enhanced senses or a healing factor that was skyrocketing at the time.


Wolverine vs DD:

This wouldn't work on Bruce who's been in tougher holds from much stronger opponents and skillfully gotten out of them or broken out through brute force despite being gang up on by a large group of super powered aliens and badly beaten up as seen here:

Besides you are missing some context with Armored DD. He was suffering from a breakdown at the time and was reckless and arguably not as fast as traditional DD

Here Stone, one of his old master comments on DD's recklessness:

Even Bushwacker notices that DD is not as fast as before:

Plus, if you look at that one showing against Daredevil as a legit win (despite Matt not being really beaten imo) then you would equally have to look at the time Black Panther (who wasn't really even interested in fighting) easily tossed Logan aside before he could react as a win as well, although there was no clear finish:

In the Enemy of the State fight Wolverine was indeed missing part of his soul(I have no idea how that would affect him physically btw as is was primarily a state of mind change), but he also had like 20 hand ninjas with him which should more than make up for any disadvantages Wolverine had. Logan was even dodging billy clubs and got in a couple hits against DD.

As for the Ennis fight with Daredevil, Ennis stated he hates em all, that proves there is no bias there. Besides, the neck chop from Daredevil isn't as PIS as you would hope.

Nick Fury thinks going for the neck would be a good idea:

That was very similar to this:

DD was more likely successful as he is more skilled and likely hits harder than Fury.

Now imagine if Batman did that to Wolverine as he can chop thru bricks with his fingers:

Gambit thinks going for the neck is a good idea:

Mystique thinks going for the neck is a good idea:

Modern Wolverine would at least be stunned by this giving Batman a slight advantage, as seen here:

And we all know that a slight advantage is all that Batman needs in most cases.

Sabretooth thinks going for the neck is a good idea:

Notice it takes him an hour to heal from the thraot rip which would be consistent with modern Wolverine being stunned by DD's neck chop for a min or so.


Punisher thinks going for the neck is a good idea. This is the entire fight as you have chosen not to post it and with good reason as it shows Punisher being nearly equal with Wolverine for the entire fight until the end. Frank did not have prep time either as he had a bag of weapons which is standard equipment anyway. The fight also starts with Frank at a disadvantage on the ground as Wolverine had the advantage of several sucker shots first.

Notice how Punisher was able to use explosives and equipment several times to get the advantage. He was also able to ambush Wolverine twice despite the fact that he was only a few feet away from him, which totally blows your point away that Wolverine couldn't detect him from 30 feet away in the Ennis story. Not only that, but the Ennis story is directly mentioned in the very beginning making it even more canon.

Thanks for pointing out this fight to me as I was not aware of it. It proves that Wolverine can indeed defeat Frank, after an extended fight that began with a sequence of sucker shots in Wolverines favor.


You do make a good point about Wolverine holding back on Daken due to him being his gay son. So if Daken vs Wolverine showings are invalid we can easily compare Daken to Punisher and also to Wolverine as they all have dead even records as you have pointed out.

Punisher vs Daken: I could not find the whole fight but here is a good chunk of it:

The device explodes "killing" Daken for a short time. I am sure Batman has similar if not better explosives.

Also while Frank had laser guns he could have stunned Daken with standard ordinance as seen here:

Crossbones prolly pulled this off because he's pretty skilled with a gun himself. Wolverine did come back and win the fight btw then got incinerated by some devil dude lol.

While its true Daken came back and defeated Frank a short time later, it should be noted that Frank started the first fight with a hole in his calf and in their second fight Frank was was injured from stab wounds to his chest as well as the leg injury. Not to mention he could have survived if SHEILD wasn't waiting for him surrounding the area and preventing his escape. If Punisher can do this good against Daken and Wolverine, Batman should be leagues more formidable.

This was a very good showing for Frank as Daken was going for the kill even if Wolverine may not have been technically going for the kill but was still trying to win in their fight you refrenced.


First fight. Wolverine seems to have mental issues while fighting Gambit, still, Gambit was able to take down Wolverine and cause him pain with a few shots.

Wolverine vs Gambit 2

Notice how Wolvie was arrogant enough to rely on his healing factor and this was after he already lost their first fight showing that Wolvie doesnt display his skill even when he should.

Notice how Gambit used an explosive playing card as a smoke bomb to gain the advantage. Batman could easily do that with a smoke bomb. Notice how a skillfull throw of low level explosives KO's Wolverine as this is the end of the fight, altho it was a sucker shot as Wolverine had his back turned. Wolverine may have 2 wins on Gambit but Batman is far more skilled and tactically smarter so it would go differently:

Gambit vs Bullseye:

Considering how well Gambit can do against Wolverine as they have an evenish record. Bullseye is someone we can directly compare.

Now it should be noted that Gambits powers were on the fritz, however that would be the perfect excuse to display his skills since his powers weren't reliable but he is not as good as Bullseye as he admits in the end.

Batman vs Bullseye:

While Bullseye was hit by Robin, he was also catching Batmans Batarang with his eyes closed and I doubt a single hit from Robin would have any great affect on Bullseye anyway. As we can see there is a clear skill difference here with someone that is evenish with Wolverine (Gambit) and someone above Gambits level (Batman).


1. The purpose for X's army was to see if Logan was worthy to fight since X heard Logan was the best and he has an obsession with wanting to beat the best. If he wanted to fight a weakened Logan he would've simply attacked Logan right after his army of assassins was defeated.

2. Logan had time to change his clothes and had to time to heal on his way to X's location (Logan walked btw) who gave him an open invitation to his place and even scheduled for them to fight one another 1 on 1 with Logan actually arriving early while X was actually expecting him a little later. If anything that actually tells us that X wanted to be sure that they were both at their best since X wanted to fight later on and not that early.

3. If Logan was weakened like you say where is it mentioned that he was? No where before, during, or after their battle does Logan mention being weakened due to previous battle wounds not being healed up so you are clearly making things up.

Here Batman fights highly skilled MA's posed as bank robbers hand-picked by Zeiss just to prep against Bats. If you compare this to MrX who did not record Wolverine(he just sent men to see if he was worthy enough to fight), it makes Batmans wins and stalemates against Zeiss that much more impressive imo:

We can assume that Both MrX's soldiers and Zeiss' MA's were of equal skill as both Batman and Wolverine comment on it.

Look at their costumes, you can actually see the skill difference (and this was before his fight with X's second wave of attackers):

Batman defeats an armed and armored team of 5 of deadliest fighters on earth that are apparenty unbeatable as a team. Batman was also clearly injured from a previous death trap.

Wolverine then beat Mister X the next two fights both times Blok had to step in to save Mister X life. So no actually Wolverine has beaten Mister X twice and Mister X was able to defeat a weaken Wolverine once.

Logan's had to go berserk to defeat X since X's telepathy can't anticipate his moves while in that state. You are ignoring the fact that Logan was badly losing in their 3rd cage fight in which X dominated Logan and easily countered his every move until Logan went berserk.

The last fight had X dominating Logan again until Logan decided the best way to "defeat" X was to not fight him at all since Logan knew that X had a counter for his berserker rage and it wouldn't work.

Also Mister X powers are tailor made to avoid getting hit, let alone mortally.

That sure didnt help him against Iron Fists Drunken Fist. Again a clear skill difference.

Other telepathic MAs that have taken Logan down:

Bloodshadow has defeated Logan with nerve cluster strikes

He lost the rematch when Logan used his berserker rage.


Wolverine had a very good fight with Psylock in her mini. At the end of the fight when Psylock gave up Wolverine was on his knees and looked in severe pain indicating Betsy may have had a slight advantage. He did get up ready to fight some more after that but a momentary advantage may be all that Batman needs. Wolverine looked good in that fight despite outside interference and everything. Other times he hasn't fared too well.

Logan has lost to Psylocke twice while she was mind controlled. While both wins were due to her psiblade it still proves she is more skilled than Logan as he should have been able to dodge it, and honestly he could win just as easily with his claws if he was skilled enough.(And since Betsy was mind controlled she was less skilled right Dum Dum?)

Psylocke has managed to take him down with nerve strike when he was possessed and wasn't seen until the end of the issue:

Here is a pure skill showing with no mind control:

Batman is easily as skilled as Psylock and could duplicate these showings.


Wolverine and Deadpool have had several extensive fights. Most of the time one or the other is holding back or Deadpool goes literally insane, gets DP vison and starts tripping out, or DP has prep and defeats Wolverine with Tranquilizers. Anyway they have a fairly even record but this is their most straight up fight with none of the other factors i mentioned involved.

Outskilled by Deadpool:

Batman could easily duplicate that with a couple of well placed Batarangs. DP even mentions how easy it was to sucker Wolvie. DP also mentions his HF working, however Batman has taken worse shots and kept fighting. This was Bone Claw Wolverine when his HF was skyrocketing making it that much more impressive.

Punisher also has a very respectable showing against Deadpool in DP issues 54 and 55, while there were many factors involved in their city wide romp Punisher outperformed Deadpool at least twice and came out on top in the end.


So it seems they are pretty even as one fight Logan didnt fight at all it seems (altho he was incapacitated by a stab wound)when another time he looked superior.

As for this fight.:

Its true he was holding back at first, however, Logan did pop his claws on the 3rd page and inidicated he was getting serious. During this time of the fight he was completely outskilled while X23 nullified his HF and she didn't get hit once. Batman with his master deductive ability and having the greatest tactical mind in the world will prolly be able to think of X23's clever plan.


First of all the cancer bullets you mentioned weren't a factor in that fight. It was straight up h2h and claw to claw.

As you have proven very well this guy had laser claws admantium skeleton and a healing factor to match Wolverine. They have nearly identical powersets. This is the perfect scope in which to gauge Wolvies skill. No-Name couldn't have been any more skilled than Punisher. Both him and Wolverine took several "mortal" wounds throughout the fight. If Wolverine was so skilled against a character he was clearly trying to kill he would have been blocking and dodging more than the No-namer and taxing the No-Name's HF. Instead Wolvie barely defeated No-Name before he collapsed a few seconds later showing they were near equals in skill.

I think Punisher vs No-namer would be a great fight considering how well he has done against the healing factor crew, especially since Frank is even with Daken when he was going for the kill


Yes it does look like Feast is going for a beatdown. I thought he had claws but i guess the blood just tricked me.

1. Feast obviously states that he's immortal at the beginning of the fight and is seen withstanding a surprise explosive from Batman (who had no problem going all out from the start of the battle) with little effect.

2. Feast is shown skilled enough to gain the upper hand on Batman but makes the mistake of not paying attention to what Bruce was setting him up for the entire time.

3. Feast is clearly shown regenerating his body at the end of their fight when Batman blew him apart as we see Bruce torturing info out of him with a mere pen and preventing him from healing up properly. After Batman is done we can see Feasts' body mostly recovered/regrown but he's still in pain laying on the ground beaten. Last I checked, damage soak does NOT do this neither would Batman be willing to use such lethal attacks/weaponry if he thought it would actually kill him.

I'm not seeing how you could deny Feasts' healing factor at work as its clear as day.

Originally posted by Letters Here Batman absorbs a potential killing move while outskilling his opponent- a ninja assassin trained by Master Kirigi. Batman absorbing potentially lethal stab wounds while fighting Zeiss.

The first example was Batmans cloth costume that wasn't even bulletproof at the time. Hell, I don't think Batmans current costume is knife proof as he has been stabbed in his current costume.

These show that Batman can take calculated risks in battle by blocking weapons with his body and setting up his opponent ftw. Much like Deadpool has done.

Batman blitzes the league of assassins trained by The Sensei:

I count 10 assassins on par with the skeleton samurai KO'd in 6 panels. Again, a clear skill difference.

Yes i apologize for the misrepresented scans as it was an honest mistake and i concede these points.

As for your thesis about ProtoAmazo, which was great btw, all i wanted to prove is that Batman has explosives strong enough to hurt him and slow him down even if they arent the deciding factor, and thats all I want to be taken into consideration. Besides, ProtoAmazo's leg and inferior Doomsday Clones are prolly more durable than Wolvies skin and muscle dont you think?

Yea Wolverine survived but did Mystique tank the explosion as well?

Batman usually has better explosives than standard military ordinance. The main difference here is that Punisher is more skilled with standard ordinance than Mystique as he has been able to disable Wolverines movement with a single bullet and render him helpless with a rocket, as well as that girl that showed up in the Bucky fight I posted who "killed" Wolverine. Wolvie is looking a little worse for wear here as well.

While that is impressive healing, Wolverine is far from fighting capacity here and this would technically be considered a KO, unless we are giving Wolverine time to heal for some reason. If Batman has an eplosive that is strong enough to incinerate Wolverine then its over.

Dang Wolverine got nailed to a tree? lol. How skilled was this Silver Samuria for him to be able to nail Wolvie to a tree like that?

The rest are good feats. Batman wont be counting on a single explosion ftw altho his explosive devices will help. We also have to take into consideration that Wolverine has been incinerated by fire while fighting Nuke before, and again that would count as a loss even if it took a few minutes for Logan to heal. Daken has also been beaten by a Punisher explosion.


I think we can agree that Batman carries Batarangs, grappling hooks, tanq darts, sonic devices, flashbombs, smoke bombs, and high-end explosives.

All of the scans I am posting show Batman using these items without prep meaning he carries these things normally.

Hardening Foam:

Although the fight was planned as you correctly say, you clearly ignored the part where Superman says that he didn't see the "string trick" coming meaning that part was not planned and cleverly made Clark believe that it was fireproof in order to keep him from using his heatvision to escape. Which is why Clark questioned Bruce about the foam trick in the first place.

Hardening foam is definitely standard gear for Batman we've seen him pull it out his belt against powerful meta humans several times before. Notable examples being against Black Canary (preventing her Canary Cry from working) and Heatstroke (preventing her from using her fire based powers to escape). However, depending on the type of foam he uses it may take a few seconds to solidify.

Another example:

This one again:

While it does take several seconds to take effect, Batman can use this after Wolverine is stunned from gas or electrical gadgets, much like he was when he fought Nick Fury.

Again we have to consider than Batmans gadgets are going to be top of the line and prolly more powerful than Fury's equipment thus possibly evening out with Wolverine's more powerful HF nowadays.


Which is different having it attached to you via surprise attack

Or trying to dodge an explosive at point blank range that's powerful enough to defeat Brick who's invulnerable and has easily withstood a boozoka blast with no damage done to him as well as having bulletproof skin

Bat-Electical Devices(real ones lol):

Bat-Suit Tazers:



We have seen electricity KO Logan before it just takes a very high amount to do so. So, if Batman can weaken him enough beforehand then pour on a lot of electricity all at once that should be a way to take him down.



Bat-Tiny Magnet:

That mercernary (known as Tommy Harper who you see at the top center of the image) only had a metal plate in his head and Batman used a magnetic ball to easily and quietly take him out so that's 3 examples of Batman using something magnetic to take out a metal based enemy.

Bat-Magnet 2:

Once Batman discovers that Wolverine has a metal skeleton this could be an instant incapacitation for him as its possible he wouldn't be able to move or defend himself thus giving Batman the win.

Yes of course, IF Wolverine is skilled enough to do so. Can you name me any Top level MA's on par with Batmans, ninja-stealth, array of equipment, and genius level tactical mind that Wolverine has cleaved the arms off of?

While impressive damage soak, and its true Wolverine did do his job and gave the Avengers time to re- *ahem* assemble, Wolverine wasn't able to defeat Clor without the help of outside interference much like Batman with ProtoAmazo. However, Batman was able to avoid nearly all of ProtoAmazos attacks and was even able to significantly damage ProtoAmazo using standard gear and his unmatched ninja-stealth.
Batman here distracts a JLA level threat while giving the JLA time to regroup.
There is a clear skill difference there.

As for Bats one on one with someone pretty close to Clor. Batman vs a demon possessed Wonder Woman:
Batman is defeated from the callapse of the structure as Demon possessed WW was unable to defeat Batman straight up. Again, a clear skill difference.

As for fighting inferior clones, here Batman defeats Inferior Doomsday Clones with an Axe:
Notice how they are powerful enough to punch Superman far away. 2 Inferior Doomsday Clones that powerful should be pretty equal to 1 Clor amirite?


Nobody Wolverine has ever fought is capable of matching Batmans ninja-stealth save Bucky who had to compensate by covering his body in ink. If Batman breaks line of sight for a moment (smoke/gas/explosives), he can ninja stealth away, and appear behind him like Bucky did gaining the upperhand against Logan for several pages. Batman is more skilled, is smarter than Bucky and has better equipment than what was used_ and would end the fight much sooner like Elektra did in EotS.

One of my favorite stealth examples:
Batman uses ninja stealth against ProtoAmazo while he's distracted. He has Supermans powerset thus also having his supersenses:
Batman could easily duplicate that while Wolverine is distracted by smoke/gas/explosives/while Wolverine attempts to escape from hardening foam.

Batman outstealths Supermans super senses with the help of a gadget:
Batman outstealths Supermans super senses (possibly without a gadget):
Out stealths Cheetah who has similar animalistic senses to Wolverine:

Counters Pre-Crisis Karate Kids ninja stealth attack:

Batman should be able to out stealth Wolverine considering less stealthy characters have been able to do so despite his super senses like Punisher, Bucky, Yukio (when she used the environent to mask her scent), and Cable.

Batmans stealth is something Wolverine has virually no defense against as Batman can break line of site at pretty much any time he wants with smoke/gas/explosives etc.
Batman puts a huge crack in a reinforced window that is able to withstand Bazooka blasts with repeated punches despite dying/weakening rapidly from poison gas:

Throws Doctor Death thru a missile proof door:

Batman kicks down a reinforced steel door:

Batman has the striking power to damage Logan imo.

BATMAN's RECORD: revised (Batman has)
Karate Kid (Post-Crisis) - 1 draw in which he had to quickly adapt to a unknown style of martial arts that he had no experience in on top of being ambushed

Karate Kid (Pre-Crisis) - 1 inconclusive with the battle in Val's favor but with Bruce blocking his stealth attack, landing 2 powerful attacks that drew blood, proving more than tough enough to withstand all Val's attacks without going down, plus cleverly distracted him so Black Lightning could sneak up from behind to take him out

Sensei- 1 win Batman outsmarted Sensei using the environment

Shiva -1 win 1 stalemate *Shiva started with a sucker shot after Batman just defeated Grundy and wasn't at 100%. Shiva may have been mind controled as Batman speculated on it, still, Batman noticed no difference in her skill
Cassandra Cain -1 win 1 stalemate *the win was a superior skill showing

David Cain -1 win 1 stalemate

Bane - 2 wins, 1 stalemate, 1 unfair loss

Bronze Tiger -2 stalemates 1 loss

Master Haim -1 win

Ra's Al Ghul - 4 wins two of which involved the use of the environment, 1 loss via lazarus pit power up, 4 stalemates

Nightwing (pre-RIP) - 1 inconclusive in favor of Bruce who was holding back

Wildcat - 1 win, 1 stalemate which Bruce was holding back against
Enhanced or Super Powered Fighters:

Azreal - 3 wins 1 loss

Slade - 1 win 2 losses

Prometheus - 1 win, 1 loss in which Prometheus was very prepared to fight Batman and defeated him off panel

Manhunter- 1 win *has a healing factor

Feast- 1 win through the use of a clever battle tactic * has a healing factor

Hawkman - 1 win *Batman won while mindcontrolled after being suckershotted

Zeiss - 2 wins, 1 stalemate, 1 inconclusive that favored Zeiss who had the slight upper hand but was prepared to fight Batman beforehand which was their 1st battle

And that's not even counting Batmans record in Marvel vs DC which should be accepted as you have mentioned it first and since they were non fan voted fights thus both companies agree how their characters should be displayed as you have pointed out here:


Stick- 1 stalemate *Stick was holding back

Captain America - 2 wins*, 1 short inconclusive battle that favored Steve before his leg gave out on him by a nerve_ strike from Wolverine, I dont think this would affect Batman as he has absorbed and countered more deadly nerve strikes before.

Iron Fist - 1 win in a contest of skill in which they were both holding back, 1 loss before his established MA history but still counts since Logan usually fights like a brawler as he did in this battle anyway

Shang Chi - 1 win, 1 loss in a melee contest of skill and use of environment
Gorgon- 2 losses 1 win

Daredevil - 2 losses 1 stalemate 1 win *1 loss Wolvie was mind controlled and had the help of 20 Hand-Ninjas.

Black Panther - 1 loss* which is counted as a win for BP since Logan's 1 win over DD is counted as legit although their was no clear finish

Shingen - 1 loss due to poisoning beforehand, 1 win

Ogun - 2 wins one via contest of skill, 1 loss via accurate use of a gun in which Logan retreated to heal up

Deadpool and Gambit both have an evenish record, as its debatable as who is ahead currently.

Punisher - 1 win, 1 loss, 2 stalemates (other one I didn't mention was in Marvel Knights Wolverine Punisher #2)

Nick Fury - 1 win due to Fury being KO'd by the feedback of his own electical device. Both characters were holding back but Wolverine was holding back less imo as Fury preffered not to fight and Logan was instigating the fight. And if Wolverine was so skilled he should have been able to dodge Fury's gadgets and go for the quick KO.

Psylock- 1 stalemate * Logan was hindered by outside interference, 1 loss via a contest of skill, 2 losses while Psylock was mind controlled altho Logan was holding back iirc

Mr X - 1 win, 2 losses, 1 inconclusive in favor of X with Logan cleverly conceding since it was the only way to beat X
Bloodshadow- 1 win 1 loss

X23- 1 win 1 loss * Logan was holding back at first but was already healed when he got serious then lost.

Echo - 1 inconclusive draw which had Echo staying ahead of him through the use of her move copying ability although her strikes were ineffective
Several telepathic MA's have been able to get the better of Logan in straight up H2H mainly due to their low level telepathy to predict Wolverines moves. Batman has very similar opponents in Batgirl and Shiva as their fighting style defines the move reading ability, and Zeiss who has superfast reflexes and recorded Batmans fighting style, specifically to predict Batmans moves while they fought, as did Prometheus. Batman has flat out performed better against similar opponents.

Echo for example, a move copier who's no where near as skilled as Shiva or Cass yet she was able to pull off an inconclusive draw against Logan. Batman has defeated Zeiss, Prometheus, and Batgirl; all who are able to copy techniques.

We should note that Cassandra and Shiva in particular are considered more skilled than most telepathic MA's like Mr X who depend on their move reading ability to compensate for their lack in skill.

Here is a top level MA who is comparable to Batman in skill handling MrX:

(Broken link edit)
Batman could duplicate that as he has deduced J'onn was a telepath in their very first meeting.

And let's not forget how formidable MrX was against Wolverines raw mutant speed:
Batman is at least as capable as Mr X as he has fought and won against more skilled opponents with a move-reading ability (Cassandra and Shiva).
I have proven sevaral MA's have been able to get the upperhand on Wolverine when he displays his average furious brawler portrayal, several with nervestrikes for the KO. None of those MA's have the extensive array of equipment that Batman has, some of which is tailor made for an easy win - Bat-Magnets for example.
I have proven lower skilled characters like Nick Fury, Punisher, Gambit, Bucky and Deadpool have all used equipment to get the upperhand on Wolverine in a fight. None of them have the tactical genius level intellect, devious trickery Batman has, nor his ninja stealth, nor the high end MA skill.__

I have also proven viable ways for Batman to win.
A combination of constant equipment use, damaging skillfull attacks like nerve strikes and mortal stab wounds, and specific equipment tailor made to defeat Wolverine- Magnets for the easy win, once Batman realizes Wolverine has a metal skeleton with his master deductive ability that is._ (If Wolverine doesn't boast about it first lol, which would be a HUGE mistake against someone as smart as Batman who would quickly use those strengths against him.)

so, is this thing over now?

Originally posted by leonidas
so, is this thing over now? I was just asking the same thing! (Sorry if I'm not supposed to talk in here)

so should i be voting on this thing now?

Yea I suppose so. I haven't heard anything fron Dum Dum about an extension. So, yes. I believe a judgement from all 3 judges is all that is needed.

I very much appreciate the time the judges have taken to read such a nerdy debate and eagerly await your responses. smile

will have my vote in this weekend. guaranteed.

Starscream M
Originally posted by leonidas
will have my vote in this weekend. guaranteed. you're taking too damn long

Originally posted by leonidas
will have my vote in this weekend. guaranteed. Same here. I didn't know what was happening with the debate.

Remind of a fight between a Snail and a cotton ball. one eye

Originally posted by Blight
Remind of a fight between a Snail and a cotton ball. one eye

lol. Come on its not that bad. smile The thread ain't going no where and I am sure the judges have lives too.

Originally posted by Starscream M
you're taking too damn long


feel free to take my place and vote on it. smile

Starscream M
Originally posted by leonidas

feel free to take my place and vote on it. smile ok, I vote for letters. done. see, simple?



Originally posted by Starscream M
ok, I vote for letters. done. see, simple?

sweet. i'm officially out of this and have given my vote to starscream. it would be nice if he elaborated a little further like any good judge does, but.....whatever. good luck to bada and pr sorting through this mess. smile

Wow this is such crapshow even judges are handing off their duties. smile

Originally posted by Starscream M
ok, I vote for letters. done. see, simple? Given you animosity toward Dum Dum, your vote doesn't count.

Originally posted by Badabing
Given you animosity toward Dum Dum, your vote doesn't count.

what? you mean i still gotta vote??

Originally posted by leonidas
what? you mean i still gotta vote?? laughing out loud

It's only a few posts.

Starscream M
Originally posted by leonidas
what? you mean i still gotta vote?? stop shirking your duty...I was trying to be a good samaratan and cover for you, but now it's on you.

Originally posted by Starscream M
stop shirking your duty...I was trying to be a good samaratan and cover for you, but now it's on you.

laughing out loud

well, not sure i can provide the same level of insight as you can, but i guess i can take up the reins again. you're prodding is annoying though, and actually makes me want to put off my vote until....i don't know, maybe next week sometime? i'll see how much time i get this weekend. smile

Starscream M
Originally posted by leonidas
laughing out loud

well, not sure i can provide the same level of insight as you can, but i guess i can take up the reins again. you're prodding is annoying though, and actually makes me want to put off my vote until....i don't know, maybe next week sometime? i'll see how much time i get this weekend. smile well, maybe I wouldn't have to prod if you had you know....done your job

as it is, your vote seems to be the sole judge vote and it will determine the victor...so I look forward to reading your final opinion

Well, this BZ kind of fell apart after the opening posts. I would have liked to see a full debate but Dum Dum went MIA. erm

The tough part about judging this sort of debate is that I have to forget everything I know about the characters and rely on the debaters.

The MA skills debate was a wash imo. They are both high end in MA skills.

The speed edge goes to Wolverine. But I don't think it's a deciding factor since Batman has displayed enough skill and had gadgets to even the field.

When I finished reading Dum Dum's posts I had him winning. I think he countered Letters' intial posts with scans and commentary. And half of Letters' scans were too small to read. Again, I have to forget everything I know about the characters and base a decision off the debate.

But then Letters comes back with 11 posts which went without a counter argument from Dum Dum. I can't really ignore that fact.

My decision goes to Letters based on Dum Dum not rebutting 11 posts. Not a great way to win, but a win is a win I guess.

This means now that Batman beats Wolverine since a mod agreed already, whoever disagrees gets banned.


Originally posted by Starscream M
well, maybe I wouldn't have to prod if you had you know....done your job

as it is, your vote seems to be the sole judge vote and it will determine the victor...so I look forward to reading your final opinion

well (A) you're not involved, so i have no idea why you care or why you think your 'prodding' will have any meaning.

(b) i signed on voluntarily, to judge when time for ME permits. i fit this around MY schedule. i've judged enough and competed enough to know that rule quite well. i've waited a lot longer then this for judges votes to come in.

and (c) for future reference--prodding leads to a LESSER willingness to do....whatever you want me to do. no expression

that said, i too vote LETTERS.

this was weird for me. all that discussion about top 10 ma's was....a useless waste of words imo. this wasn't going to be won on h2h skill. if it got to that point, bats would lose.

this came down to logan's hf vs bat's gear and his ability to temporarily incapacitate logan long enough to constitute a forum win.

dum relied on the old--logan runs through everything bats can throw at him and cuts him up. the non-rebutted portion from letters showed a lot of tech/gear that would make this very difficult though. a combo of gas/explosives and particularly the foam (which really went uncontested as standard) made me think this combo would work to incapacitate logan long enough to give bats the win here.

perhaps with further debating, dum could have convinced me. as it was, there was a lot of wasted words imo on an area that didn't mean particularly much. i needed to see more ways logan could counter the tech, and less how he could beat bats (which was evident) if it came to straight h2h. for letters parts, i think he could have focused much MORE on the tech side, since i think that is the only real way bats had a chance. as it was, he did just enough to earn my vote.

this could have been an epic bz, but..... it was what it was and i don't think it was necessarily indicative of the way another bz might go between these 2 characters. :/

Originally posted by Bentley
This means now that Batman beats Wolverine since a mod agreed already, whoever disagrees gets banned.

biscuits laughing out loud

Congrats Letters.

Cool. Thanks to all the judges for taking the time and also be serious about it. I had a lot of fun compiling and researching the info, I also tried to keep it as truthful as possible and even conceded points when proven wrong.

Its a shame Dum Dum wasn't. Able to continue for whatever reason. It may have been a weird way to win, but then again if there was a problem with my argument Dum Dum should have been able to easily address it.

I am very impressed with the non biased judges and it really shows a lot about your character.

Even if Batman may not defeat Wolverine every time, to prove it he needs a better lawyer to take on Letters- The Master of Words lol smile

Don Corleone
Originally posted by Letters
Cool. Thanks to all the judges for taking the time and also be serious about it. I had a lot of fun compiling and researching the info, I also tried to keep it as truthful as possible and even conceded points when proven wrong.

Its a shame Dum Dum wasn't. Able to continue for whatever reason. It may have been a weird way to win, but then again if there was a problem with my argument Dum Dum should have been able to easily address it.

I am very impressed with the non biased judges and it really shows a lot about your character.

Even if Batman may not defeat Wolverine every time, to prove it he needs a better lawyer to take on Letters- The Master of Words lol smile

Congrats. You should battle for the KMC street level title.

Why would dum dum ask for a battlezone and then not rebut his arguments ? Awful.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Why would dum dum ask for a battlezone and then not rebut his arguments ? Awful. He hasn't been on KMC since his last post. Maybe school, work, pc issues, personal stuff, etc.

I would have liked to see the debate go on though.

Originally posted by Badabing
He hasn't been on KMC since his last post. Maybe school, work, pc issues, personal stuff, etc.

I would have liked to see the debate go on though. To me that doesn't matter because letters gave him a chance to extend the deadline. Now look at letters bragging it's official that Batman won over Wolverine. He's bragging he beat dum dum all over the net.


^ lol

that IS funny. i find it hilarious that he proclaimed it 'official' when really all it was was 2 guys opinions on a debate that really wasn't even completed for whatever reason.

this bz will do nothing to change anyone's mind about the outcome of a battle between these characters, and it certainly doesn't make it 'official' that batman beats logan! lol

the only thing 'official' is that letters beat dum in a debate. that's it.

i mean, congrats letters, but methinks you're putting a little more stock in this thing than is warranted. but.....whatever. have fun with it i guess. smile

What's even funnier is the "win" seems to be more by default than having solid arguments.

How cute. A few other no-name socksters crawling out of the woodwork to cry some more.

Congrats, Letters, for the effort and for the match. Superman is still stronger, faster, etc. than Diana, though. thumb up smile


Originally posted by Don Corleone
Congrats. You should battle for the KMC street level title.

Thank you sir! Yea that sounds fun, maybe I will.

Originally posted by leonidas
^ lol

that IS funny. i find it hilarious that he proclaimed it 'official' when really all it was was 2 guys opinions on a debate that really wasn't even completed for whatever reason.

this bz will do nothing to change anyone's mind about the outcome of a battle between these characters, and it certainly doesn't make it 'official' that batman beats logan! lol

the only thing 'official' is that letters beat dum in a debate. that's it.

i mean, congrats letters, but methinks you're putting a little more stock in this thing than is warranted. but.....whatever. have fun with it i guess. smile

Oh I'm milking it for all its worth bro. And I wouldn't sell your opinion short, you and bada and PR are considered to be respected posters on both herochat and KMC.

Originally posted by FlyingAces
What's even funnier is the "win" seems to be more by default than having solid arguments.

You really think so? Maybe you would care to discuss it after I blow up the Batman vs Wolverine thread in the vs forum.


Originally posted by leonidas
^ lol

that IS funny. i find it hilarious that he proclaimed it 'official' when really all it was was 2 guys opinions on a debate that really wasn't even completed for whatever reason.

this bz will do nothing to change anyone's mind about the outcome of a battle between these characters, and it certainly doesn't make it 'official' that batman beats logan! lol

the only thing 'official' is that letters beat dum in a debate. that's it.

i mean, congrats letters, but methinks you're putting a little more stock in this thing than is warranted. but.....whatever. have fun with it i guess. smile Let the kid (?) have his day.

And for the record, my vote is official...LEO! durhulk

stick out tongue

Originally posted by Letters
You really think so? Maybe you would care to discuss it after I blow up the Batman vs Wolverine thread in the vs forum.

It's not a "think so" on my part. It was stated as much in the decision....."My decision goes to Letters based on Dum Dum not rebutting 11 posts. Not a great way to win, but a win is a win I guess".

He didn't say anything about weak arguments. It could also be viewed that my argument was so rock solid Dum Dum couldn't think of a plan to counter it despite being offered an open ended extension to boot. I mean, if we are going to extremes here.

I never said anything about weak arguments. All my comment said was it is funny how you are running around on the other board claiming that you have won because of your solid points, yet judgements didn't really say anything like that from what I read. It was more to how Dum Dum defaulted than anything else.

Originally posted by FlyingAces
I never said anything about weak arguments. All my comment said was it is funny how you are running around on the other board claiming that you have won because of your solid points, yet judgements didn't really say anything like that from what I read. It was more to how Dum Dum defaulted than anything else. Leave Letters alone. sneer

bada's right--bottomline is he actually SHOWED UP and PUT UP. the opportunity to shut him up was there, but fell short. his being there and repping bats in this thing is not something that should be dismissed. i didn't see anyone else willing to step up and handle his challenge.....

Originally posted by Letters
Oh I'm milking it for all its worth bro. And I wouldn't sell your opinion short, you and bada and PR are considered to be respected posters on both herochat and KMC.

laughing out loud

that cracks me up a little for some reason. it also creeps me out. no expression

Originally posted by leonidas
laughing out loud

that cracks me up a little for some reason. it also creeps me out. no expression

I just meant several posters dropped yous guys' names as non biased respected posters to consider as judges lol

Originally posted by FlyingAces
I never said anything about weak arguments. All my comment said was it is funny how you are running around on the other board claiming that you have won because of your solid points, yet judgements didn't really say anything like that from what I read. It was more to how Dum Dum defaulted than anything else.

Again, if you would like to continue this discusion about my argument you are more than welcome to continue on the Batman vs Wolverine thread in the vs forum. Just quote my responses and post your counter points. I am genuinely interested in a genuine Wolverine fans opinion on the matter, since Dum Dum wasn't able to respond for whatever reason. (I do hope nothing serious happened to the guy btw sad )

Congrats on your win, Letters.

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