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Luke Skywalker, as of Jedi Academy against Darth Bane from Rule of Two.

Bane is not wearing Orbalisk armor, but can otherwise rely on his various skills and experiences.


Setting is Jedi Praxeum on Yavin 4.


1. Sabers

2. Force

3. All out

Kinda boring without obralisk armor. But Bane could win, if he uses help from Exar Kun spirit.

Originally posted by Arhael
But Bane could win, if he uses help from Exar Kun spirit.

Are you trying to sound stupid on purpose? confused

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Are you trying to sound stupid on purpose? confused
You gave Yavin 4 as fighting ground. You did not specify timeline.
You said that Bane "can otherwise rely on his various skills and experiences", which includes drawing power on nearest darkside nexuses with any ghosts present in them.
I gave specific circumstance in which Bane could win but otherwise it is Luke's territory, which puts Bane at disadvantage.

If you want opinion by points, then:

1. Luke
2. Draw
3. Luke

Originally posted by Arhael
You gave Yavin 4 as fighting ground. You did not specify timeline.
You said that Bane "can otherwise rely on his various skills and experiences", which includes drawing power on nearest darkside nexuses with any ghosts present in them.
I gave specific circumstance in which Bane could win but otherwise it is Luke's territory, which puts Bane at disadvantage.

If you want opinion by points, then:

1. Luke
2. Draw
3. Luke

Bane doesn't need to draw upon ghosts for victory!!

Like alot of the other veteran debators here have stated, he's basically the original genius bad ass Sith killing machine.

Bane likely has access to techniques that Luke couldn't even comprehend and is likely easily a match for him in lightsaber combat.

Personally, I see Luke getting telekinetically-flinged through stone walls, and slashed badly whilst dueling.

Bane would likely win all three scenarios, though it would be close.

Actually, Yavin 4 was the grave site of Exar Kun and Kun's spirit knocked out Luke. Yavin is both a light and dark side nexus. Both men can't beat each other, so they go to the local cantina and have a few drinks.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Actually, Yavin 4 was the grave site of Exar Kun and Kun's spirit knocked out Luke. Yavin is both a light and dark side nexus. Both men can't beat each other, so they go to the local cantina and have a few drinks.



Kun isn't involved in this fight. angel_not

What kind of techniques for example? If someone could surprise Luke, it is Bane's apprentice, she was way better at using Sith Sorcery during combat.
Agree, he is match for lightsaber.

Doubt it. Luke is exceptionally good at rooting himself in one place.

In terms of Force Bane is obviously more powerful as any Sith of his caliber supposed to be. But I said draw because Luke is proficient at defending using less effort, than attacker on offensive. He would preserve his power by dodging any heavy objects flying at him instead of stopping them with the Force and trying to overpower Bane directly. Inevitably Bane would get tired from overexertions and they would proceed to combat.

Erm, no I am also fairly certain Luke takes this. Though I'm hazy, is this before or after Shadows of Mindor?


Also, Bane makes top 20, sure, but when you think about it, the people below top 30 are a lot of nameless mooks.

Originally posted by Pwned
Erm, no I am also fairly certain Luke takes this. Though I'm hazy, is this before or after Shadows of Mindor?


Also, Bane makes top 20, sure, but when you think about it, the people below top 30 are a lot of nameless mooks.

After.

But this is the same Luke who had trouble fighting that egotistical Lizard Apprentice.

But this is the same Luke who had trouble fighting that egotistical Lizard Apprentice.
Trouble 0_o? They had the only short encounter, where Desann didn't take much chances. Jumped down, Luke followed. Force push that Luke back flipped. And lightsaber throw to topple ceiling on Luke, which didn't do anything to him. Then he runs away and Luke makes sigh.

It's really horrible example for evidence in any case.
However, if we go deeper into the subject, Desann was not a mere Apprentice, he was taught by Hetrir, gained power and got his own apprentice.
Another issue is that he is not a random Sith but Luke's past apprentice, which adds up guilt and sense of failure. Luke wouldn't go at him full mode, he would prefer passive defence and try to convince him to bring to light.

Very same thing was happening with Brakisis. Luke kept trying to bring Brakiss to the light. Even in the last battle, when Shadow Academy attacked JEdi Academy, Luke still was holding back and kept trying to persuade Brakiss to change.

Originally posted by Arhael
Trouble 0_o? They had the only short encounter, where Desann didn't take much chances. Jumped down, Luke followed. Force push that Luke back flipped. And lightsaber throw to topple ceiling on Luke, which didn't do anything to him. Then he runs away and Luke makes sigh.

It's really horrible example for evidence in any case.
However, if we go deeper into the subject, Desann was not a mere Apprentice, he was taught by Hetrir, gained power and got his own apprentice.
Another issue is that he is not a random Sith but Luke's past apprentice, which adds up guilt and sense of failure. Luke wouldn't go at him full mode, he would prefer passive defence and try to convince him to bring to light.

Very same thing was happening with Brakisis. Luke kept trying to bring Brakiss to the light. Even in the last battle, when Shadow Academy attacked JEdi Academy, Luke still was holding back and kept trying to persuade Brakiss to change.




First off, Desann was a mere Apprentice - being taught by Hethrir doesn't mean anything - I mean, the guy got beaten by a pile of Jello for ****'s sake!


And Luke admits to Kyle after recovering that he can't handle him.


Bane, Orbalisk or no, would put his foot up Luke's ass.

First off, Desann was a mere Apprentice - being taught by Hethrir doesn't mean anything - I mean, the guy got beaten by a pile of Jello for ****'s sake!
No he wasn't. He left Academy as mere apprentice. Maybe it was only 1-2 years after he left but it is more, than sufficient time to achieve full potential, especially, since "darkside gives you power".


That is quite understandable. Considering how Luke is naively kind, he would be overwhelmed by his sense of guilt and failure.


Nope. Try pre DE Luke, that would be more likely.

Originally posted by Arhael
No he wasn't. He left Academy as mere apprentice. Maybe it was only 1-2 years after he left but it is more, than sufficient time to achieve full potential, especially, since "darkside gives you power".
That is quite understandable. Considering how Luke is naively kind, he would be overwhelmed by his sense of guilt and failure.
Nope. Try pre DE Luke, that would be more likely.


Desann wasn't very well developed even with the Dark side.

Luke said he couldn't handle him, because he knew he wouldn't be able to take him in a fight.

And yeah, like some Debators have been saying around here, Pre-NJO Luke is way too overestimated.

Bane would rape any incarnation of Luke narrowly, short of NJO.

What in your opinion is developed? He was master of all skills available in game. He empowered himself with valey of the Jedi, then consumed Force nexus prior to final battle. Or to be well developed he needs to know Sith Sorcery? Then Dooku wasn't well developed in darkside either.


Which scene was it?
I didn't find it in this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcTuClbfrac

Opinion. Why would Desann run then, if Luke couldn't handle him?

I can only throw counter opinion:
"Luke was ambushed by Desann, and fought him in a fierce but brief lightsaber duel. Faced with the prospect of losing the duel, Desann escaped."



Luke during that time was in his prime. But toward NJO he started weakening from lack of training in the Force.
Nevertheless, it didn't affect his lightsaber skill as he showed in last fight with Brakiss.

Bane actually has better chance against Luke from first NJO books. Luke at that time weakened to the point that he was getting tired even with relatively small exertions and on first heavy effort, when he moved black hole, he even lost consciousness.

By the way events of Jedi Academy trilogy did make him weaker as he only got much more doubts about what is to be a Jedi and getting stressed from what some of his student became. In one post academy book he even went into self-exile.
All his mental struggles ended only, when his relationship with Mara started developing in Hand of Thrawn. In one talk she verbally raped him by pointing at every single mistake he did and why it was wrong.

Originally posted by Arhael
What in your opinion is developed? He was master of all skills available in game. He empowered himself with valey of the Jedi, then consumed Force nexus prior to final battle. Or to be well developed he needs to know Sith Sorcery? Then Dooku wasn't well developed in darkside either.




He was a big, Force-Sensitive lizard who was initially trained by a sith-wannabe and afterwards had gone through Jedi-bootcamp, that's all.

Luke's overall skills apparently weren't polished enough to halt the threat of a madman who was planning to harm thousands of people if he escaped the ship.

And I'm sure Dooku had access to esoteric disciplines that Desann didn't even know existed.






Originally posted by Arhael

Which scene was it?
I didn't find it in this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcTuClbfrac





Been a while since I've seen the game, and I was paraphrasing. But he pretty much implied it physically, after Desann held him off and rained debris down onto him.







Originally posted by Arhael

Opinion. Why would Desann run then, if Luke couldn't handle him?





Why would Luke send Kyle then, if Luke could handle him?





Originally posted by Arhael

I can only throw counter opinion:
"Luke was ambushed by Desann, and fought him in a fierce but brief lightsaber duel. Faced with the prospect of losing the duel, Desann escaped."





Desann had an army to command and plans to execute, and Luke had reinforcements on the way.


Either way a half-trained Apprentice (also trained by a guy who was pwned by a pile of Jello) who gave Luke Skywalker a hard fight, pales in comparison to the Dark Lord who founded the Rule of Two.

If Desann can give Luke a hard fight, then Bane can ream his boot up Luke's ass.

It's that simple.







Originally posted by Arhael

Luke during that time was in his prime. But toward NJO he started weakening from lack of training in the Force.
Nevertheless, it didn't affect his lightsaber skill as he showed in last fight with Brakiss.





What time are you talking about, exactly? During Jedi Academy he was training a good amount, and by the first NJO book, his skills were easily on par with Qui-Gon Jinn (In terms of feats displayed at the time).
Point is, Luke during NJO was sufficiently-skilled and well-practiced.

But before Jedi Academy, his training was likely sporadic and in small spurts of growth.







Originally posted by Arhael

Bane actually has better chance against Luke from first NJO books. Luke at that time weakened to the point that he was getting tired even with relatively small exertions and on first heavy effort, when he moved black hole, he even lost consciousness.





Uh, moving a Black Hole would cause somebody to become fatigued? Really?

I mean, that's only an energetic vortex, capable of trapping all matter and energy in the universe. doh


Luke by the beginning of NJO was probably slightly better than JA Luke, and as it get farther into the NJO series, he started to surpass Obi-Wan and then finally, Yoda.


Realistically, Bane would only lose to Luke from probably the middle of the NJO series.

But Jedi Academy Luke gets raped.







Originally posted by Arhael

By the way events of Jedi Academy trilogy did make him weaker as he only got much more doubts about what is to be a Jedi and getting stressed from what some of his student became. In one post academy book he even went into self-exile.
All his mental struggles ended only, when his relationship with Mara started developing in Hand of Thrawn. In one talk she verbally raped him by pointing at every single mistake he did and why it was wrong.



Yeah, I noticed he got weaker after JA, and got strong again right around the time of NJO.

He was a big, Force-Sensitive lizard who was initially trained by a sith-wannabe and afterwards had gone through Jedi-bootcamp, that's all.

Luke's overall skills apparently weren't polished enough to halt the threat of a madman who was planning to harm thousands of people if he escaped the ship.

And I'm sure Dooku had access to esoteric disciplines that Desann didn't even know existed.
Sith wanna be? He was Vader's apprentice, Vader wouldn't teach a weakling.

What ship? They fought outside ship and it was very short encounter and Desann wasn't weak.

Palpatine didn't give Dooku access to those disciplines.


Hard fight? Desann gave Luke surprise attack, yet, Luke blocked all his attempts. Then Dessan jumped down. Luke followed him but barely he reached the flour as Desann Force pushed him, which didn't do Luke any harm. But Desann toppled ceiling, which was clever move. Then he ran away and rightfully so as Luke is shown unharmed and shaking his head.
You see, the same story can be told from both perspectives.

Luke didn't send Kyle anywhere. Kyle had his own agenda throughout the game. After seeing fight with Desann Kyle contacted Luke but ship suddenly started to move. Luke was outside and said that Kyle must stop ship. Then Kyle reached Academy before Luke and hence Desann.


Sure, army to command is such an urging matter, that it is more important, than finishing Luke, who apparently was incapacitated by ceiling. What reinforcements? Kyle was too far away. He watched the fight from inside star destroyer and didn't even attempt to rush helping Luke.


Pawned by a pile of Jello that almost consumed Luke. Hethrir was knowledgeable Sith who had wits to foresee empire fall. Moreover he discovered himself many Force sensitives and fed them to Waru(Jelly) and only consuming Hetrir was enough for that thing to return home, which means that he like Luke was very powerful. Also, he was capable of stripping others from the Force, which, also, adds to his proficiency.

Ones again fight of Desann with Luke was too short to evaluate it as hard fight

The Dark Lord that pales in comparison to the Palpatine who toppled republic, who during RotS was on par with Windu and Yoda, who later contained in himself so much power that was blowing up on dying and who having such enormous feats happened to loose lightsaber fight to Luke.

Doesn't really matter. Before DE Luke was already in his prime. But he was still inexperienced in terms of knowledge and life in general. He tried to defeat Palpatine from within but by opening himself to darkside he got exposed to Palpatine's influence. But after re-embracing lightside he got vital experience of life after which the darkside was out of his reach. He got the confidence to take on anyone and carried that confidence through out whole Empire's End. When he confronted Kam Solusar, Kam stated that his skills in combat are much higher but Luke countered that it is not just skill but the Force that guides his moves. And that's what unique about Luke that he can trust the Force so deeply. When confronting Vader his skill and power was incomparable to Vader, yet, he was able to fight back and even at the same time learn and mirror Vader's moves.


Kyp Durron performed the same feat later and stayed conscious.
It is evident throughout NJO that at the beginning Luke is heavily out of shape but slowly he was restoring his prime.
Mara, when giving lesson to Anakin about relying not only on the Force gave Luke as example that he was mostly passively meditating.
In his first encounter with Yuuzhan Vong he used telekinesis only ones to kill third Vong with stones, other two he killed with lightsaber, yet, after he said to Jacen that he feels tired from drawing on the Force.
Before moving that black hole he was thinking that it was very long time before he did any heavy uses of the Force but finally it is time to start again.
Then he faced Lord Nyax that almost mind dominated him.
Later he did much heavier Force use, than moving black hole. He was projecting Force illusion of Mara's ship very realistic even for sensors as well as hiding real ship. The exertion was so high that his cells began burning and he started glowing. Yet, this time he didn't loose consciousness, however, his face heavily wrinkled and he had resemblance of Palpatine.
Later he performed the same feat again but this time he was in his prime and it didn't affect him so much and his face didn't become wrinkled.


The way you describe it is like character gains skill and power gradually like in an MMO game. But it doesn't work like that.
You learn new skills as well as forget them. New skills lead to new techniques as well as mistakes. You practice hard and reach top form but then relax and loose that form completely. New knowledge can strengthen as well as corrupt.

Luke didn't grow slowly and consistently, his powers and fitness were up and down throughout the story. Luke from Empire's End was in his prime and could take on anyone, however, later he started getting weaker.
Jedi Academy put great tall on him and instead of practicing and improving he spent time teaching others and struggling with his own doubts. Yet, in "I, Jedi" he fought 6 Jensarai simultaneously and not only defeated them but didn't kill any of them. All 6 are Force users, wielding lightsabers and wearing Kortosis armor. That's quite a feat.
At the beggining of NJO he retained his combat skills but in terms of power he was very weak. Only by middle or end of NJO he got back to his prime and finally stayed at that level.
In case of Desann you say he is unaccomplished apprentice. But do you think it takes very long time to achieve full potential? Jedi or Sith apprentices with constant training can achieve full potential in terms of power and combat in just 1-2 years, there are plenty of examples. They would still be inexperienced and unwise, however, they will be sufficient enough to fight their master on equal terms.