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Setting: Geonosis arena

1. Sabers

2. Force

3. All out

Pre-NJO Luke is severely overestimated most of the time.

If this is the Jedi Academy book trilogy, then Bane stomps a hole through him.

Luke lost a lightsaber duel to a novice who barely knew how to hold a lightsaber. (Gantoris)

Also, in the trilogy, Luke's knowledge and command of the Force 99% of the time was very small and basic, so in a Force duel, Bane would rape him as well.

If this is the Jedi Academy game, then Luke still loses.
He only defeated DE Sidious because of Leia's involvement, and he couldn't handle Desann, who was himself a mere apprentice.

Bane, being a Dark Lord of the Sith, and innovator of some of the deadliest Sith techniques known to man, stacks up far beyond a haughty lizard, and Leia isn't around to help Luke against Bane's Force attacks, either.

After a moderately difficult fight for Darth Bane, Luke goes down, hard.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Pre-NJO Luke is severely overestimated most of the time.

If this is the Jedi Academy book trilogy, then Bane stomps a hole through him.

Luke lost a lightsaber duel to a novice who barely knew how to hold a lightsaber. (Gantoris)

Also, in the trilogy, Luke's knowledge and command of the Force 99% of the time was very small and basic, so in a Force duel, Bane would rape him as well.

If this is the Jedi Academy game, then Luke still loses.
He only defeated DE Sidious because of Leia's involvement, and he couldn't handle Desann, who was himself a mere apprentice.

Bane, being a Dark Lord of the Sith, and innovator of some of the deadliest Sith techniques known to man, stacks up far beyond a haughty lizard, and Leia isn't around to help Luke against Bane's Force attacks, either.

After a moderately difficult fight for Darth Bane, Luke goes down, hard.


No, Luke held back on Gantoris so as to not make the situation worse - though it is true that Gantoris was successful in driving Luke back constantly, even though he was little more than a novice and also true that Luke was only able to gain the advantage again once Gantoris was distracted by a nearby animal.

But anyway, this is the Jedi Academy video game, not the Jedi Search novels, which is what I think you're referring to.

Originally posted by Rookwood

He only defeated DE Sidious because of Leia's involvement, and he couldn't handle Desann, who was himself a mere apprentice.





How much could Leia have helped though really? She was only a padawan.

And let's not forget DE Luke's Force Pressing an AT-AT Walker down to the floor.


Btw way how long after DE does Jedi Academy take place?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
How much could Leia have helped though really? She was only a padawan.






From a previous thread:

Originally posted by Dr. Styles




DE Handbook as well as pretty much EVERY other source regarding the battle says otherwise. Knowing the technique is regardless, as Liea proved.

"Together with a third force wielder stirring in her womb, Luke and Liea were able to overcome the Emperor with Lightside energy."

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=125&page=165

And before you say that was in regards to the force storm:

"Listen to me Liea...we can stop him...I've read his dark books according to his own word he cannot control the chaos he has awakened. Join your Jedi power to mine."

" I already am, Luke haven't you sensed it."

They were both bolstering him all throughout the duel, hence Liea glowing in the back ground.

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=125&page=145







Originally posted by DARTH POWER

And let's not forget DE Luke's Force Pressing an AT-AT Walker down to the floor.







He didn't press it down to the floor - it fired a blaster bolt at him, and he initially reflected it back into the cockpit, damaging it. He then used the Force to telekinetically damage the cockpit enough to bring the AT-AT down.


That's pretty decent as far as feats go - reflecting it's own beam at it with a lightsaber and telekinetically damaging the already crippled cockpit. Bane could easily do the same thing.






Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Btw way how long after DE does Jedi Academy take place?



Only four years. And if I remember, Desann basically overwhelms Luke in combat, and then buries him under a pile of rubble.
Luke then states along the lines that he can't handle him.
Desann was essentially a half-trained Apprentice.





Edit: To quote Stealth Moose..

Originally posted by Janus Marius
ESB Luke with his whole week of training- Owned.

ROTJ Luke with his whole "I had three years to sit on my ass and what seemed to be a week's worth of training in Fort Dagobah under a puppet that looked like it ate rabbit poop that it found in my napsack"= Owned.

DE Luke, "I got beat down and made Sidious' ***** and it took Han Solo and worthless Leia among with the other half of the movie cast to save my no-talent ass"- Owned.

NJO Luke- Luke suddenly can snap his fingers and Bane would drop dead.

Huh. There's your thread.

Wow, old quote is old. But still mostly true. AT-AT walkers don't have Force defense, so while crushing one makes Newton all hot and bothered, it doesn't mean shit if the other guy can avoid it or do the same back.

Or you know, just beat your ass all around the park.

Ah, the old days... Dipsit, Somebody, Nefarus, Fishy, Dubya, Traya, etc. Where have they all gone?

Originally posted by Battlemaster
From a previous thread:

Im not questioning if she helped. Im questioning how much a padawan and unborn child "could" have possibly helped. If she actually got her lightsaber out and helped Luke in the duel that would be different. But she was just standing there, focusing the force with her padawan level training.

As it was Luke must have been doing most the work imo.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
He didn't press it down to the floor - it fired a blaster bolt at him, and he initially reflected it back into the cockpit, damaging it. He then used the Force to telekinetically damage the cockpit enough to bring the AT-AT down. That's pretty decent as far as feats go - reflecting it's own beam at it with a lightsaber and telekinetically damaging the already crippled cockpit. Bane could easily do the same thing.

IIRC it did'nt say anything about the cockpit. It just said something like "remembering the words of his master size matters not, Luke presses against the walker with the Force."

That seems like some Starkiller type stuff to me.



Originally posted by Battlemaster
Only four years. And if I remember, Desann basically overwhelms Luke in combat, and then buries him under a pile of rubble.
Luke then states along the lines that he can't handle him.
Desann was essentially a half-trained Apprentice.



You realise 4 years after DE means he's had a total of 14 years of training as a Jedi by then. That's more years of training than Anakin ever had (pre-Vader).

And it includes being a Jedi Knight for the last 10 years, and a Jedi Master for the last 4.

Im not aware of exactly what happened with Desann but considering Luke was crushing AT-AT's 4 years earlier it sounds like some serious PIS.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
AT-AT walkers don't have Force defense,

Still feat wise who from the PT beats that in Raw TK Power besides Yoda and Sidious?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Im not questioning if she helped. Im questioning how much a padawan and unborn child "could" have possibly helped. If she actually got her lightsaber out and helped Luke in the duel that would be different. But she was just standing there, focusing the force with her padawan level training.

As it was Luke must have been doing most the work imo.





Not the point.

Before Leia helped, Sidious was essentially having his way with Luke.

Then when they fought a second time, Leia used Battle Meditation and focused her raw Force power with Anakin, and through writer's-fiat showed Sidious what the ever-embracing warmth of the Light side could do.

This allowed Luke to gain the upper hand, and spare himself another one-sided ass beating from the Sith Lord.








Originally posted by DARTH POWER

IIRC it did'nt say anything about the cockpit. It just said something like "remembering the words of his master size matters not, Luke presses against the walker with the Force."

That seems like some Starkiller type stuff to me.






Point is, the cockpit was specifically damaged by the bolt being deflected by the lightsaber, crippling the machine and allowing Luke's TK to do the rest.

If his TK was as powerful as you are assuming, he would have had no need to use his lightsaber in the first place.






Originally posted by DARTH POWER

You realise 4 years after DE means he's had a total of 14 years of training as a Jedi by then. That's more years of training than Anakin ever had (pre-Vader).

And it includes being a Jedi Knight for the last 10 years, and a Jedi Master for the last 4.

Im not aware of exactly what happened with Desann but considering Luke was crushing AT-AT's 4 years earlier it sounds like some serious PIS.




And..

Originally posted by Janus Marius
ESB Luke with his whole week of training- Owned.

ROTJ Luke with his whole "I had three years to sit on my ass and what seemed to be a week's worth of training in Fort Dagobah under a puppet that looked like it ate rabbit poop that it found in my napsack"= Owned.

DE Luke, "I got beat down and made Sidious' ***** and it took Han Solo and worthless Leia among with the other half of the movie cast to save my no-talent ass"- Owned.

NJO Luke- Luke suddenly can snap his fingers and Bane would drop dead.

Huh. There's your thread.



If anything was PIS, it was Luke's handling of the At-At, especially if this was before Palpy's training.

One year earlier, while fleeing Stormtroopers on one of the dreadnoughts of the Katana Fleet with Han Solo, Luke and Han stumble into a store room full of weapons and AT-PT's, which are far smaller than even AT-ST's, and Han gets the idea to have Luke pick one of them up and rest it against the doors leading into the room.

Luke tries, and even using all his power, admits he can't even get it to budge.

One year later, I'm not so sure he will have improved enough to TK an AT-AT like a toy.

In the same book where he attempted to TK the AT-PT, Luke also used the Force to reach out, and telekinetically rip up the wiring of an approaching starfighter in order to destroy it.

He succeeds with this.

As we don't actually see him crush the AT-ST, but merely bring it down, after his blaster-bolt deflection crippled the command cabin, it might be more logical to say that he used his TK to finish the job his deflection started. Just maybe.wink3







Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Still feat wise who from the PT beats that in Raw TK Power besides Yoda and Sidious?






Luke doesn't really display any blatant feats of monster-TK like Yoda and Sidious, until NJO, if memory serves.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Still feat wise who from the PT beats that in Raw TK Power besides Yoda and Sidious?

To elaborate, there were likely plenty of Jedi Masters, certainly on the Council that could reflect a blaster-bolt into a fighting machine, and TK some of it's innards to finish it off.

Not overly impressive.


Edit: And I'm sure Luke's opponent in this Thread, could do better.

Edit

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Not the point. Before Leia helped, Sidious was essentially having his way with Luke.

Then when they fought a second time, Leia used Battle Meditation and focused her raw Force power with Anakin, and through writer's-fiat showed Sidious what the ever-embracing warmth of the Light side could do.

This allowed Luke to gain the upper hand, and spare himself another one-sided ass beating from the Sith Lord.



Of course that's the point. How could Padawan Leia possibly have had significant enough training in enhancing her brother's power just by meditating?? Luke must have been doing the vast majority off the work.

As for how he did better the second time, he says my with the aid of my sister my mind has been lifted (or something to that effect, will have to check the comic again)

I think Leia did help Luke to get the upper hand the second time, but not much in the way you think. She helped him to clear his mind. He was on the brink of turning to the dark side before her intervention, and was getting very confused.

And let's not forget this was Sidious with Force Mastery way way beyond his ROTS self, but in a much younger, stronger body. So it was a huge feat for Luke.



Originally posted by Battlemaster
Point is, the cockpit was specifically damaged by the bolt being deflected by the lightsaber, crippling the machine and allowing Luke's TK to do the rest.

If his TK was as powerful as you are assuming, he would have had no need to use his lightsaber in the first place.

He only needed his lightsaber to deflect the AT-AT's fire power. That in itself is a huge feat.

There's no need to lowball that feat, IMO that was beyond the vast majority of Jedi. Could Obi-Wan do that? No way. It's beyond him. Could Mace? Possibly, although it's bigger than any Tk feat I've seen from him.


Originally posted by Battlemaster
And..

Lol Jaunus's bitching of Luke doesn't prove anything.

And I find it strange that you all seem to think Jedi Knight Luke in ROTJ was useless, and yet Padawan Leia can suddenly just sit there and significantly enhance Luke's power by staring really hard



Originally posted by Battlemaster
Luke doesn't really display any blatant feats of monster-TK like Yoda and Sidious, until NJO, if memory serves.

True but I think he was probably ahead of the likes of Mace Windu and Count Dooku in terms of his Tk.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Of course that's the point. How could Padawan Leia possibly have had significant enough training in enhancing her brother's power just by meditating?? Luke must have been doing the vast majority off the work.

As for how he did better the second time, he says my with the aid of my sister my mind has been lifted (or something to that effect, will have to check the comic again)

I think Leia did help Luke to get the upper hand the second time, but not much in the way you think. She helped him to clear his mind. He was on the brink of turning to the dark side before her intervention, and was getting very confused.

And let's not forget this was Sidious with Force Mastery way way beyond his ROTS self, but in a much younger, stronger body. So it was a huge feat for Luke.
Originally posted by Dr. Styles
DE Handbook as well as pretty much EVERY other source regarding the battle says otherwise. Knowing the technique is regardless, as Liea proved.

"Together with a third force wielder stirring in her womb, Luke and Liea were able to overcome the Emperor with Lightside energy."

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=125&page=165

And before you say that was in regards to the force storm:

"Listen to me Liea...we can stop him...I've read his dark books according to his own word he cannot control the chaos he has awakened. Join your Jedi power to mine."

" I already am, Luke haven't you sensed it."

They were both bolstering him all throughout the duel, hence Liea glowing in the back ground.

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=125&page=145









Originally posted by DARTH POWER

He only needed his lightsaber to deflect the AT-AT's fire power. That in itself is a huge feat.

There's no need to lowball that feat, IMO that was beyond the vast majority of Jedi. Could Obi-Wan do that? No way. It's beyond him. Could Mace? Possibly, although it's bigger than any Tk feat I've seen from him.






I'm not sure the writer knew much about AT-AT's, but I know that it likely wasn't using it's main cannon, because the blast effect would have surpassed the lightsabers blade.
It was likely one of the smaller cannons, and deflecting those has to do with reflex/precog, as the actual repelling of the bolt is taken care of by the lightsaber.

In any case, that in itself is not a TK feat.

And yeah, Mace and Obi-wan could deflect attacks like that while taking naps.







Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Lol Jaunus's bitching of Luke doesn't prove anything.





Jaunus is one of the finest Debators on the Forum - you could learn a thing or two from him.






Originally posted by DARTH POWER

And I find it strange that you all seem to think Jedi Knight Luke in ROTJ was useless, and yet Padawan Leia can suddenly just sit there and significantly enhance Luke's power by staring really hard







Understand something - it's not a matter of her being a Padawan or not.
Remember that Leia shares Anakin Skywalker's bloodline as well. She has latent abilities within her as well, and she demonstrated this when she saved her brother from an ass-beating at the hands of Palpatine.







Originally posted by DARTH POWER

True but I think he was probably ahead of the likes of Mace Windu and Count Dooku in terms of his Tk.




Doubt it.

Luke looses this one.
At that point it is unlikely that he knew shatterpoint to break armor or cut through it like in case with Slayers.
The armor is way too big advantage. Bane doesn't even need to block most of the attacks, he would simply answer attack with attack and Luke would have to go pure defense.


Luke lost a lightsaber duel to a novice who barely knew how to hold a lightsaber. Lost? 0_o He was simply was blocking attacks without countering. What would be the point of beating up already angered student? What would it teach other apprentices?
With same success I can give example, where Corran Horn was beating crap out of Luke in lightsaber training, even punching him in the face(I Jedi). Yet, it was the sam Corran that stated to help Luke it would be enough just to hold his cape, while Luke was comfortably handling 6 Jensarai.

There was plenty of feats from Luke from before. And why he needs to show feats at all? He was wise Jedi, not some power abusing Sith. He used Force only, when necessary. That is not what makes Jedi great.

Sith knowledge of the Force in terms how to harm someone was always wider, than Jedi. That is why they are Sith.

You are talking about cannon, yet, rely on game, where Luke and Desann had awfully represented short encounter, which can be subjected to wide speculation.


Are you serious? I'll go then and learn one or two things from S_W_Legend.

Her help was mostly psychological. She helped him to understand his mistakes and open his eyes. Then he gives whole long talk himself, proclaims that the spell is broken and engage in combat. In audio book Lea is described as watching light and darkness confronting, not by concentrating to empower Luke. Yes, Sister did make difference. But not by empowering Luke with Force. She gave him emotional ground. Battle meditation is actually all about moral spirits.

Luke defeated Palpatine by embracing lightside again, this is the whole point of the story. It is pathetic to try strip him away from this achievement.

And doesn't matter how great feats of Luke were. Demonstration of destruction with use of Force is for Sith, not Jedi. Yes, Luke did topple that AT-AT and that was cool. But the machine was already disabled after he deflected its volley, useless exertion. It was very unwise of him, which only proves how inexperienced he still was at the time.

First Dr. Styles hasn't proved anything there. It's speculation. Her saying "I already am" does not prove she was during the Lightsaber fight.

Originally posted by Battlemaster


And yeah, Mace and Obi-wan could deflect attacks like that while taking naps.

Mace Windu could.. But Obi-Wan deflect an AT-AT's firepower back at it causing it to be crippled? Nah.

And when it came to pressing the Force against the Walker Id say Mace doing it: Possible (though proof could be required)

Obi-Wan doing it: Nah, impossible.



Originally posted by Battlemaster
Jaunus is one of the finest Debators on the Forum - you could learn a thing or two from him.

I never once said I don't like the guy or he's not a good debator. He is. But that doesn't make him right all the time. Especially in this case where he himself is clearly not completely serious and is just on a frenzy attack against Luke.




Originally posted by Battlemaster
Understand something - it's not a matter of her being a Padawan or not.
Remember that Leia shares Anakin Skywalker's bloodline as well. She has latent abilities within her as well, and she demonstrated this when she saved her brother from an ass-beating at the hands of Palpatine.



Of course her being a padawan matters. Tell me this, could youngling Anakin himself have just have stood there in TPM watching Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan fight and somehow boost their power?? Of course not.

Why didn't Obi-Wan boost Qui-Gon's power while helplessly watching him fight Darth Maul solo? If TPM Obi-Wan(ready to be Knighted) had no technique for doing that then you can bet anything Padawan Leia is even less able.

Originally posted by Arhael

Her help was mostly psychological. She helped him to understand his mistakes and open his eyes. Then he gives whole long talk himself, proclaims that the spell is broken and engage in combat. In audio book Lea is described as watching light and darkness confronting, not by concentrating to empower Luke. Yes, Sister did make difference. But not by empowering Luke with Force. She gave him emotional ground. Battle meditation is actually all about moral spirits.

Luke defeated Palpatine by embracing lightside again, this is the whole point of the story. It is pathetic to try strip him away from this achievement.



Exactly

In fact the comic itself says "With Leia's help Luke is using unexplored resources within himself" or something to that effect. She was aiding him in using his own potential. The actual telekinetic help from her and baby Anakin would have been minimal.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
First Dr. Styles hasn't proved anything there. It's speculation. Her saying "I already am" does not prove she was during the Lightsaber fight.





Everyone here, including Nephys, could tell you consistently what the scans the good Doctor provided, indicate.







Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Mace Windu could.. But Obi-Wan deflect an AT-AT's firepower back at it causing it to be crippled? Nah.





So much for Obi-Wan's vaunted skill at defense.








Originally posted by DARTH POWER

And when it came to pressing the Force against the Walker Id say Mace doing it: Possible (though proof could be required)

Obi-Wan doing it: Nah, impossible.






Not so impossible - it's only pushing on the damaged command-cabin to kill the control to the rest of the machine, and Obi-wan had displayed good TK feats before, such as dragging a starfighter across a hangar bay.








Originally posted by DARTH POWER

I never once said I don't like the guy or he's not a good debator. He is. But that doesn't make him right all the time. Especially in this case where he himself is clearly not completely serious and is just on a frenzy attack against Luke.





He is pretty much always right - at least when I've seen him debate. He knows alot about Jedi/Sith lore, and his viewpoints are spot-on.

He was frustrated about people's over-hyping of early-Luke, and I share that frustration.

His viewpoints were right and correct on the matter.






Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Of course her being a padawan matters. Tell me this, could youngling Anakin himself have just have stood there in TPM watching Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan fight and somehow boost their power?? Of course not.

Why didn't Obi-Wan boost Qui-Gon's power while helplessly watching him fight Darth Maul solo? If TPM Obi-Wan(ready to be Knighted) had no technique for doing that then you can bet anything Padawan Leia is even less able.




I can tell you must be new to Star Wars.

I'll break it down for you: Some Force-users have latent powers, that even as Padawans or even Initiate's they can utilize and have surprising skill with.

Obviously, Leia had a latent talent with a form of Battle Meditation, as indicated.

Asking why Obi-wan didn't do the same thing is redundant, as he obviously didn't have the same latent talent.

Now you know.

http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/TheMoreYouKnow.gif






Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Exactly

In fact the comic itself says "With Leia's help Luke is using unexplored resources within himself" or something to that effect. She was aiding him in using his own potential. The actual telekinetic help from her and baby Anakin would have been minimal.




Okay, and without it, he would be a corpse.

/Thread.

Who's Dr. Styles and why should I know him?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Who's Dr. Styles and why should I know him?



Well, I meant you know all about the help Leia and co. provided to Luke during the fight and how that helped. :3

Yes in that regard. It just doesn't make sense otherwise how Palpatine could dominate him the first time and then lose the second time unless she was helping him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes in that regard. It just doesn't make sense otherwise how Palpatine could dominate him the first time and then lose the second time unless she was helping him.


msn-wink

It's not about if. It's about after. After that he learned valuable lesson and was ready to face Palpatine again or any other Force monster.

But since Bane has got obralisk, he wins.

/Thread.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes in that regard. It just doesn't make sense otherwise how Palpatine could dominate him the first time and then lose the second time unless she was helping him.

Makes as much sense as Dooku dominating Anakin earlier in the fight, then getting dominated himself later on in the same fight.

Luke could have been "In the Zone" in the second fight thanks to Leia lifting the cloud of the darkside from his mind.

What really wouldn't make sense is how Padawan Leia would have the ability to aid Luke in a lightsaber fight by just standing there boosting his power.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Everyone here, including Nephys, could tell you consistently what the scans the good Doctor provided, indicate.

What everyone here thinks is not canon proof.

I've been on and off on these boards for years, and even up until recently pretty much everyone here was of the opinion that Obi-Wan as of CW-ROTS would completely annihilate Darth Maul in a Saber duel, and that him tooling General Grievous was a feat that makes him a top tier saber duelist in league with Count Dooku and even Mace Windu!


Clearly the CW Animation has proven wrong on more than one occasion what everyone here thinks and what they see as indications.

There's no proof Luke had a power boost from Leia. At most he had a power boost from inside himself, but thanks to Leia aiding his mental state.


Originally posted by Battlemaster
He is pretty much always right - at least when I've seen him debate. He knows alot about Jedi/Sith lore, and his viewpoints are spot-on.

He was frustrated about people's over-hyping of early-Luke, and I share that frustration.

His viewpoints were right and correct on the matter.

No his hatred to Luke blinds him. He says in that post ROTJ Luke was Owned?? At exactly what point was he Owned? When he killed all of Jabba's guards, when he defeated Boba Fett in 2 seconds, when he chopped off Vader's hand??

Oh yeah, he got owned by Palpatine's Lightning, without the aid of his Lightsaber. Lol like he's the only one who would get owned in that situation.



Originally posted by Battlemaster
I can tell you must be new to Star Wars.

Don't mess with me kid. I was reading Dark Empire before there were Star Wars Prequels. Yes Dark Empire is that old btw. So don't expect everything to make perfect sense in line with the SW Prequels.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
I'll break it down for you: Some Force-users have latent powers, that even as Padawans or even Initiate's they can utilize and have surprising skill with.

Obviously, Leia had a latent talent with a form of Battle Meditation, as indicated.

Asking why Obi-wan didn't do the same thing is redundant, as he obviously didn't have the same latent talent.

I would prefer you not tell me what's obvious, and instead give me canon proof that Leia has the ability to boost someone's force power in a way that gives them such a HUGE Boost in Saber Combat.





Originally posted by Battlemaster
Okay, and without it, he would be a corpse.

/Thread.

Wow so the Force Power boost from a Padawan was sooo huge, that it takes Luke from not having a chance to defeating Palpatine. Yeah sure.

Either way the point is all moot. Even if he did it with a force power boost from Leia (unlikely), then still Luke with his padawan tooled the strongest and most powerful version of the Most powerful Sith Lord in history.

Not bad for someone who Jaunus basically calls a novice who got owned

There is no canon source that outright says Luke received a boost from Leia. Sometimes the narrator does not have to point out the obvious for us to see what's going on in a story, especially in comics. Leia's glowing and her stating that she was already joining her powers with Luke's, along with the fact that Luke was easily defeated by Palpatine just prior, seems like pretty good proof that Leia somehow had a hand in Luke's victory over Palpatine. Most likely it was Leia aiding Luke in tapping into is own potential, but that's kinda irrelevant in this thread.

However, DP, you are right, Luke is far from a weakling in DE. He absorbs fire power from an AT-AT walker and sends the machine crashing down with TK, he destroys war droids with the wave of his hand, and pretty much force owns just about every dark side adept he faces and even crushes two of them with a huge Vader statue that he topples over with the force.

Good to see you Sidious66. I was beginning to think everyone who used to be here had left the verses forum.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
There is no canon source that outright says Luke received a boost from Leia. Sometimes the narrator does not have to point out the obvious for us to see what's going on in a story, especially in comics. Leia's glowing and her stating that she was already joining her powers with Luke's, along with the fact that Luke was easily defeated by Palpatine just prior, seems like pretty good proof that Leia somehow had a hand in Luke's victory over Palpatine. Most likely it was Leia aiding Luke in tapping into is own potential, but that's kinda irrelevant in this thread.

I never denied any of this. And Im also inclined to think Leia was helping Luke tap into his own potential, especially from this line:

AS LEIA'S INTENSITY CONTINUES TO UNLOCK UNEXPECTED RESOURCES IN LUKE...

Also even with the aid of a Padawan, to defeat the most powerful incarnation of the most powerful sith lord in history is a HUGE feat.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
However, DP, you are right, Luke is far from a weakling in DE. He absorbs fire power from an AT-AT walker and sends the machine crashing down with TK, he destroys war droids with the wave of his hand, and pretty much force owns just about every dark side adept he faces and even crushes two of them with a huge Vader statue that he topples over with the force.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Makes as much sense as Dooku dominating Anakin earlier in the fight, then getting dominated himself later on in the same fight.

Luke could have been "In the Zone" in the second fight thanks to Leia lifting the cloud of the darkside from his mind.

What really wouldn't make sense is how Padawan Leia would have the ability to aid Luke in a lightsaber fight by just standing there boosting his power.






Exactly, Leia and Anakin helped Luke in the fight, and without it, he'd be dead. That's the main point, here.







Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What everyone here thinks is not canon proof.

I've been on and off on these boards for years, and even up until recently pretty much everyone here was of the opinion that Obi-Wan as of CW-ROTS would completely annihilate Darth Maul in a Saber duel, and that him tooling General Grievous was a feat that makes him a top tier saber duelist in league with Count Dooku and even Mace Windu!


Clearly the CW Animation has proven wrong on more than one occasion what everyone here thinks and what they see as indications.

There's no proof Luke had a power boost from Leia. At most he had a power boost from inside himself, but thanks to Leia aiding his mental state.






The point is, whether Luke had the power inside himself, unlocked by Leia, or Leia joining her Light side power with his - she is the primary reason he survived the duel, without it, Palpy would have raped him. Understand that.










Originally posted by DARTH POWER

No his hatred to Luke blinds him. He says in that post ROTJ Luke was Owned?? At exactly what point was he Owned? When he killed all of Jabba's guards,






He didn't kill all of Jabba's men single-handedly, Duh. Most of them died when the Hutt's sail-barge exploded. But it doesn't say anything for his melee-skill.







Originally posted by DARTH POWER

when he defeated Boba Fett in 2 seconds,






Luke didn't defeat Boba Fett. A half-blind Han Solo accidentally pwned him.






Originally posted by DARTH POWER

when he chopped off Vader's hand??





Due to Vader holding back.

Just imagine what Vader during TFU against Luke would have been like.







Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Oh yeah, he got owned by Palpatine's Lightning, without the aid of his Lightsaber. Lol like he's the only one who would get owned in that situation.





He couldn't have done anything, even with a lightsaber.






Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Don't mess with me kid. I was reading Dark Empire before there were Star Wars Prequels. Yes Dark Empire is that old btw. So don't expect everything to make perfect sense in line with the SW Prequels.






Well you've done a fine job of looking like a newb.

Yeah - I'll mess with you. I smell blood and your opinions smack of not having adequate knowledge of the material at hand.

I was reading Star Wars novels before any of the Prequel stuff came out as well, and I researched Jedi and Sith lore backwards and forwards for years.

If you're supposed to be knowledgeable enough to tell me to back off, then you shouldn't be arguing with my viewpoints in the first place since they make sense, and you can't figure out basic concepts, like latent Force powers and why some people have them and others don't.

It's obvious without Leia's help that Luke would have died against Palpatine - if you don't agree with that then you don't deserve to be here debating with me.

If you can agree with it, then be quiet and move on. That simple.








Originally posted by DARTH POWER

I would prefer you not tell me what's obvious, and instead give me canon proof that Leia has the ability to boost someone's force power in a way that gives them such a HUGE Boost in Saber Combat.





You've already apparently provided yourself with that proof.









Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Wow so the Force Power boost from a Padawan was sooo huge, that it takes Luke from not having a chance to defeating Palpatine. Yeah sure.

Either way the point is all moot. Even if he did it with a force power boost from Leia (unlikely), then still Luke with his padawan tooled the strongest and most powerful version of the Most powerful Sith Lord in history.

Not bad for someone who Jaunus basically calls a novice who got owned







Yeah - except one problem - you can't have those types of bragging rights when it took you and another combatant to achieve that victory.

That's not impressive for Luke and doesn't speak of his lightsaber skill.

Remove Leia from the equation - and guess what you have?

Someone who got owned.


(Drops the Mic)

Out.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Exactly, Leia and Anakin helped Luke in the fight, and without it, he'd be dead. That's the main point, here.

The point is, whether Luke had the power inside himself, unlocked by Leia, or Leia joining her Light side power with his - she is the primary reason he survived the duel, without it, Palpy would have raped him.

No one's denying this. Point is even with the aid of his padawan, he defeated the most powerful version of the most powerful sith lord in history. That's obviously no small feat, and it's serious lowballing to make out that it is.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Understand that.





Originally posted by Battlemaster
He didn't kill all of Jabba's men single-handedly, Duh. Most of them died when the Hutt's sail-barge exploded. But it doesn't say anything for his melee-skill.

Luke didn't defeat Boba Fett. A half-blind Han Solo accidentally pwned him.

Luke didn't defeat Boba Fett?
Yeah it was Boba Fett who put Luke on the floor twice right? And yeah a blind Han Solo accidentally killed him while Luke was battling the rest of Jabba's crew.. What's your point there..

You know if you and Jaunus want to make a serious case for the "Luke is a novice" argument, then you'd do well not to lowball.


Originally posted by Battlemaster
Due to Vader holding back.

In the Saber fight? Speculation.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Just imagine what Vader during TFU against Luke would have been like.

Makes Luke beating him down even more impressive.




Originally posted by Battlemaster
He couldn't have done anything, even with a lightsaber.

And what Obi-Wan Kenobi could? Could any Jedi Council member with the exception of Yoda and Mace? No. So you've got no point here.




Originally posted by Battlemaster
Well you've done a fine job of looking like a newb.

I actually like you Battlemaster. And Im not immature enough to get into a rant with you on this or all the other insults and accusations you've thrown my way in your post.

But know this: Your needless insults are a typical sign of someone either:

a) Immature. Or
b) Losing an argument.


Originally posted by Battlemaster
You've already apparently provided yourself with that proof.

Yes I did. I actually provided proof. Not baseless speculation and apparent indications.



Originally posted by Battlemaster
Yeah - except one problem - you can't have those types of bragging rights when it took you and another combatant to achieve that victory.

That's not impressive for Luke and doesn't speak of his lightsaber skill.

Remove Leia from the equation - and guess what you have?

Someone who got owned.


(Drops the Mic)

Out.

And you still haven't addressed the main issue. That even with the moral and psychological support of his padawan, Luke defeating the most powerful version of the most powerful sith lord in history is an uber feat!

You think Jedi Knight Anakin could have done that with the aid of Ashoka??! Lol

Or even Count Dooku with the aid of Ventress. And this is Ventress just being in the room meditating and giving moral support to Count Dooku LOL.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No one's denying this. Point is even with the aid of his padawan, he defeated the most powerful version of the most powerful sith lord in history. That's obviously no small feat, and it's serious lowballing to make out that it is.







You don't understand?

Requiring someone elses assistance to take down an enemy does not make you tough.

If you got into a fight with a really tough guy, and your 15-year old sister jumped into the fight and merely positioned herself behind his legs for you to push him - and you went forward and punched the guy, somewhat ineffectually, but it caused him to trip backwards over your little sister and smack the back of his skull against the pavement, knocking him out - that doesn't give you the bragging rights to raise your hands in victory and declare the defeat of a guy who would have beaten you otherwise, a great feat.

It's only a big feat if Luke is able to take Sidious alone - everyone else here understands that if he has a minion giving him power or aid otherwise that enables the win, it's not a legit win - hence Jaunus's sarcasm.






Originally posted by DARTH POWER
















Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Luke didn't defeat Boba Fett?
Yeah it was Boba Fett who put Luke on the floor twice right? And yeah a blind Han Solo accidentally killed him while Luke was battling the rest of Jabba's crew.. What's your point there..

You know if you and Jaunus want to make a serious case for the "Luke is a novice" argument, then you'd do well not to lowball.







If a blind smuggler nearly kicked Boba Fett to hell, that pretty much indicates Fett wasn't having a good day, period.








Originally posted by DARTH POWER

In the Saber fight? Speculation.






Even in a saber fight - remember, Vader wanted Luke to join him and destroy Palpatine - he was toying with Luke through the fight, not willing to actually hurt him.






Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Makes Luke beating him down even more impressive.






- No, TFU showed the true destructive prowess of Vader in melee combat, and if we placed Luke against that type of a Vader - his real self, and not his soft "I'm your daddy and I don't want to really hurt you, but I hate Sidious and want you to stand with me and take him out" self, if we placed him against his real self it would be a one-sided slaughter.
Luke would be shredded almost gorily to pieces with said pieces being TKed all over the room.

Beating down a softer version of your dad, unwilling to unleash his true power and potential is nothing but a free pass.

Kind of like you needing your sister's help to take down a tougher fighter.










Originally posted by DARTH POWER

And what Obi-Wan Kenobi could? Could any Jedi Council member with the exception of Yoda and Mace? No. So you've got no point here.








No, I believe your earlier point was that Luke could.









Originally posted by DARTH POWER

I actually like you Battlemaster. And Im not immature enough to get into a rant with you on this or all the other insults and accusations you've thrown my way in your post.

But know this: Your needless insults are a typical sign of someone either:

a) Immature. Or
b) Losing an argument.






They aren't insults. They're observations.








Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Yes I did. I actually provided proof. Not baseless speculation and apparent indications.






No, you agreed with what I had earlier said about Luke needing help to win a fight.






Originally posted by DARTH POWER

And you still haven't addressed the main issue. That even with the moral and psychological support of his padawan, Luke defeating the most powerful version of the most powerful sith lord in history is an uber feat!

You think Jedi Knight Anakin could have done that with the aid of Ashoka??! Lol

Or even Count Dooku with the aid of Ventress. And this is Ventress just being in the room meditating and giving moral support to Count Dooku LOL.






I think it was implied to be more than just moral support - as Luke had had his ass almost soundly kicked the last time.

And no, Luke needing someone elses aid in defeating an opponant who would otherwise crush him, is not impressive.

You would probably think finding a weak and hungry Hobo, getting him drunk and cutting off one of his legs, and then beating him afterwards in a fight is impressive.

None of these things are.

If you can't beat a tougher fighter by yourself, it's a free pass.

And that was pretty much the majority of Luke's life before NJO.

(Picks the Mic up and let's it drop, again.)

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Good to see you Sidious66. I was beginning to think everyone who used to be here had left the verses forum.



I still get on

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I never denied any of this. And Im also inclined to think Leia was helping Luke tap into his own potential, especially from this line:

AS LEIA'S INTENSITY CONTINUES TO UNLOCK UNEXPECTED RESOURCES IN LUKE...

Also even with the aid of a Padawan, to defeat the most powerful incarnation of the most powerful sith lord in history is a HUGE feat.

Luke's potential surpasses that of Darth Sidious, so even if we are to assume that Leia only unlocked Luke's own potential it's not surprising that he defeated Sidious. But.... it's not something Luke could have achieved on his own. In fact, that is one of Luke's most impressive feats ever and there are not many times that he's out-done himself here.

Truth is - Darth Sidious at that point was Luke's superior in every single way and Luke did not even come close to approaching him. If it wasn't for Leia helping Luke to unlock his potential he would have been annihilated. So unless circumstances are exactly the same in this thread and Luke has Leia in a corner helping him to unlock his own dormant power, Bane wins.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
You don't understand?

Requiring someone elses assistance to take down an enemy does not make you tough.

If you got into a fight with a really tough guy, and your 15-year old sister jumped into the fight and merely positioned herself behind his legs for you to push him - and you went forward and punched the guy, somewhat ineffectually, but it caused him to trip backwards over your little sister and smack the back of his skull against the pavement, knocking him out - that doesn't give you the bragging rights to raise your hands in victory and declare the defeat of a guy who would have beaten you otherwise, a great feat.

If I can take down Mike Tyson with the aid of a 9 year old girl giving me moral and psychological support that wouldn't impress you??

Yep you've so failed at this argument.

Im afraid your the one whose comprehension skills are lacking.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
It's only a big feat if Luke is able to take Sidious alone - everyone else here understands that if he has a minion giving him power or aid otherwise that enables the win, it's not a legit win - hence Jaunus's sarcasm.



Luke Skywalker Jedi Master defeating the most powerful incarnation of the most powerful sith lord in history, with the aid of his complete novice sister, is not an impressive feat??

As Obi-Wan would say: "Well then you are lost!"





Originally posted by Battlemaster
If a blind smuggler nearly kicked Boba Fett to hell, that pretty much indicates Fett wasn't having a good day, period.

This shows your complete lack of common sense. Either that or your blind arrogance and refusal to acknowledge anything ROTJ Luke did as a nice feat.

Boba was concentrating on Luke, while people were panicking and firing all around. His attention was not on the blind smuggler at all.

On the other hand with his FULL attention on Luke, twice mind you, and with Luke's attention elsewhere, Boba goes down to Luke in 2 seconds. Then he goes on to kill the rest of Jabba's guards who likely consist of some of the deadliest killers in the galaxy.

Saying it was just a bad day for him is a seriously desperate argument. Oh yeah Lulz Luke was clearly just having a bad day when he lost to the Emporer! Haha!

Prove Boba wasn't on form the 2 times he attacked Luke or bring up your game. For someone called Battlemaster I would have expected you to have brought your game up by now.




Originally posted by Battlemaster
Even in a saber fight - remember, Vader wanted Luke to join him and destroy Palpatine - he was toying with Luke through the fight, not willing to actually hurt him.

LOL @ toying with him. So when he got kicked onto his rear he was toying? Or when he got beat down to the floor and got his arm chopped off he was toying?

Do you really think he wanted his arm chopped off.. How was he going to help Luke take down the Emporer with his arm chopped off?

Just like young Obi-Wan in a moment of rage briefly matched Darth Maul, the same way young Luke with short anger bursts matched and even surpassed Darth Vader. Deal with it and move on.



Originally posted by Battlemaster
Kind of like you needing your sister's help to take down a tougher fighter.

You mean having your novice sister aid you in clearing your mind so you can go on to defeat the most powerful incarnation of the most powerful sith lord in history??

Yeah real lame that. You need to change your record. Your argument has failed on all levels. Seriously.




Originally posted by Battlemaster
They aren't insults. They're observations.

They're needless insults of a man/woman losing an argument. Grow up. Your being very childish. And that is a God's honest observation. If I wanted to insult you the whole of my last 2 posts would have been filled with them.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
I think it was implied to be more than just moral support - as Luke had had his ass almost soundly kicked the last time.

You've been explained this at least 3 times now and have been given proof! You claim to be so SW EU knowledgeable and yet have nothing to go on but baseless speculation and what you see as indications and implications.

She aided him in reaching his peak mental state and his peak connection to the force. The line in DE makes that clear. I've already posted it.


Originally posted by Battlemaster
And no, Luke needing someone elses aid in defeating an opponant who would otherwise crush him, is not impressive.

That's because your comprehension skills are lacking and you didn't understand the story.

He almost got crushed in his confused, half way to the dark side, mental state.

And how impressive the feat is depends on who it is who is aiding him. Fact is it was a complete novice padawan, who in her whole career as a Jedi never even becomes a top tier Jedi.

It was a clear headed Luke who did the vast majority of work defeating DE Sidious. Again Deal with it and move on. Try a debate you actually know something about.



Originally posted by Battlemaster
If you can't beat a tougher fighter by yourself, it's a free pass.



And here again the broken record just keeps repeating itself

If all you need is the is the aid of a complete novice padawan to defeat the most powerful incarnation of the moist powerful sith lord of all time.

And all you need them to do is just stand there and aid you in clearing your mind, and helping you reach your own potential, then yeah that is damn impressive.

Now I know you like to ignore points you have no answer to so I will ask you one last time.

Could Jedi Knight Anakin with the aid of Ashoka defeat DE Palpatine, or even ROTS Palpatine for that matter??

Could Count Dooku with the aid of Ventress(just meditating and giving him moral and psychological support lol) defeat DE Sidious, or even ROTS Sidious?? Edit: And let's not forget Ventress is far far superior to Padawan Leia in every single possible way.

If not then do you admit DE Luke is far far more impressive than both Jedi Knight Anakin and Count Dooku??

Answer the question. If you can't then stop wasting my time.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66


Luke's potential surpasses that of Darth Sidious, so even if we are to assume that Leia only unlocked Luke's own potential it's not surprising that he defeated Sidious. But.... it's not something Luke could have achieved on his own. In fact, that is one of Luke's most impressive feats ever and there are not many times that he's out-done himself here.

Of course he could. She only unlocked resources inside himself. Only aided him in achieving what he was already capable of doing.

"Always remember your focus determines your reality" Qui-Gon Jinn TPM.

And so what if it was one of Luke's most impressive feats Sidious66?(though I am glad someone here admits it was impressive)..

I remember you always arguing for Mace's CWmini force wave feats as being legit even though he never repeated anything like that again. Like ever..

The reason why Luke won second fight is much simpler. In first fight he was on dark side. How many experience has he got in the dark side comparing to Emperor's? He was beginning Sith apprentice. How suitable dark side is for his personality? Not really, he is too kind, Sith out of him is rather lame. Palpatine easily used his emotions against him. But in second fight he was on the lightside, using knowledge he learned over decade. Sidious didn't have control over lightside. Lightside is antimatter against Plapatine's powers.

Originally posted by Arhael
The reason why Luke won second fight is much simpler. In first fight he was on dark side. How many experience has he got in the dark side comparing to Emperor's? He was beginning Sith apprentice. How suitable dark side is for his personality? Not really, he is too kind, Sith out of him is rather lame. Palpatine easily used his emotions against him.

And he still managed to Force push him to the floor. I don't believe anyone but Yoda has ever done that. Says a lot about his Force Powers.

Originally posted by Arhael
But in second fight he was on the lightside, using knowledge he learned over decade. Sidious didn't have control over lightside. Lightside is antimatter against Plapatine's powers.

Yep. Luke says it at the end after learning his lesson "No one Jedi can defeat the darkside..."

He wasn't talking about the power of palpatine, but the temptation of the darkside and how it messes with your head. He needed Leia just to remind him who he is and to clear his mind.

It's not about requiring assistance. Luke was still inexperienced. You learn on your mistakes.
If every character was defeating his nemesis just like that there wouldn't be good story.

Even in Dark Nest, when Luke was long ago Grand Master in his prime, was getting his ass kicked by Lomi Plo more, than ones. But then he got read of his doubts and what next? Next *WHOOSH* *WHOOSH* and Unu'Thul without arm unconscious, then *WHOOSH* *WHOOSH* and Lomi Plo is in four pieces.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And he still managed to Force push him to the floor. I don't believe anyone but Yoda has ever done that. Says a lot about his Force Powers.



Yep. Luke says it at the end after learning his lesson "No one Jedi can defeat the darkside..."

He wasn't talking about the power of palpatine, but the temptation of the darkside and how it messes with your head. He needed Leia just to remind him who he is and to clear his mind.
Yep

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Of course he could. She only unlocked resources inside himself. Only aided him in achieving what he was already capable of doing.

He wasn't capable of doing it. That's the point. If he was capable, Leia's battle meditation would have been unnecessary.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
"Always remember your focus determines your reality" Qui-Gon Jinn TPM.

I didn't see Qui Gon bringing 9 year old Anakin along to fight Darth Maul, telling him to focus, just because he had the potential or unlocked resources to slaughter Maul.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And so what if it was one of Luke's most impressive feats Sidious66?

It doesn't make sense for Luke to easily defeat Palpatine in a less powerful incarnation and then have a hard time with Lumiya in a more powerful incarnation. It was a one time feat he acheived. Either it was an extreme case of PIS or Leia helped Luke out using battle meditation. All evidents point to her using battle meditation.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I remember you always arguing for Mace's CWmini force wave feats as being legit even though he never repeated anything like that again. Like ever..

That's something I wouldn't put past Mace Windu, no.

Windu was second only to Yoda on the council and was called the deadliest man in the galaxy in The New Essential Guide to Characters. Windu has plenty of other feats to make his showing in CWmini believable, such as using the force to easily push a separatist walker off a cliff and then later reducing several battle droids to scrap with a force push (something Savage didn't even do with his rage inhanced force wave). He also manages to defeat a sith lord who was capable of speed blitzing 3 jedi masters, who had reputations of being among the best swordsmen the order had ever produced, in seconds. Windu didn't just use one force wave to to solo the entire army on dantooine, no, he used a combination of his force powers, his speed, and his deadly skills in hand-to-hand combat to acheive his victory, which probably did take a lot longer than 5 minutes to do.

Windu was a straight up badass warrior, but that's another argument. And it can't even be compared to Luke getting his ass dropped and mind dominated by Palpatine one day and then easily defeating him the next.

Originally posted by Arhael
It's not about requiring assistance. Luke was still inexperienced. You learn on your mistakes.
If every character was defeating his nemesis just like that there wouldn't be good story.

Even in Dark Nest, when Luke was long ago Grand Master in his prime, was getting his ass kicked by Lomi Plo more, than ones. But then he got read of his doubts and what next? Next *WHOOSH* *WHOOSH* and Unu'Thul without arm unconscious, then *WHOOSH* *WHOOSH* and Lomi Plo is in four pieces.
This is a good point. Luke's power can end conflicts much too quickly, so writers have it blocked off (for the most part) by his too-restrictive level of self control. (See: Caedus/Lumiya)

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
He wasn't capable of doing it. That's the point. If he was capable, Leia's battle meditation would have been unnecessary.

People still have to provide proof Leia did any kind of battle meditation for the lightsaber fight. Her glowing a bit in a couple of scenes just doesn't cut it. That was the artisitc style. The first time Luke ignites his Lightsaber his whole body is glowing.. So what?

She was a padawan, what battle meditation did she know that could Boost Luke in a Lightsaber fight.

Oh and you will notice there is no glow when "WE KNOW" she is joining her powers with his to help stop the Force Storm.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It doesn't make sense for Luke to easily defeat Palpatine in a less powerful incarnation and then have a hard time with Lumiya in a more powerful incarnation.

You mean like it doesn't make sense for Anakin to lose to Kenobi after tooling Count Dooku?? Shit like that happens in SW, especially with the Skywalkers. As Zamano pointed out, Luke is a Jedi and doesn't exactly go all out constantly.

So there's no contradiction there.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It was a one time feat he acheived. Either it was an extreme case of PIS or Leia helped Luke out using battle meditation. All evidents point to her using battle meditation.

Theres absolutely no eveidence pointing to battle meditation. And no it wasn't PIS. DE Luke was just that powerful.



Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
That's something I wouldn't put past Mace Windu, no.

Well you've got double standards in your argument there. Mace has never shown Power on that scale again. (Force tk wise). And that is certainly a much bigger inconsistency than the one your talking about with Luke, because Mace did not do that feat on Geonosis in AOTC, which is the one time he really should have.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Windu was second only to Yoda on the council and was called the deadliest man in the galaxy in The New Essential Guide to Characters.

Lol and what do you think Luke is in his time? He's the top dog. Not no.2.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Windu has plenty of other feats to make his showing in CWmini believable, such as using the force to easily push a separatist walker off a cliff

Pushing the stationery AT-TE off a cliff hardly compares to Force waves which take out hundreds of droids in one blast LOL.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
and then later reducing several battle droids to scrap with a force push (something Savage didn't even do with his rage inhanced force wave).

Again several doesn't compare to several hundred. Like not at all.

As for Savage-this isn't the thread to compare but just do the math. Mace crushed 2 Destroyer Droids (with their shields down) and several battle droids.

Savage put down 3 Destroyer droids (with their shields up all of whom were simultaneously firing at Savage) plus several battle droids and several regular droids (also firing at him).

But what Really made Savage's Force wave impressive is it also put 2 Jedi on the floor with weapons deignited. I would be surprised if Mace Windu or Count Dooku could do just the Jedi part in one Force Push (considering who the Jedi were).

But that's for another thread.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
He also manages to defeat a sith lord who was capable of speed blitzing 3 jedi masters, who had reputations of being among the best swordsmen the order had ever produced, in seconds.

LOL That's what we're talking about! Luke did the same thing to a more powerful version of the same sith lord!

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Windu didn't just use one force wave to to solo the entire army on dantooine, no, he used a combination of his force powers, his speed, and his deadly skills in hand-to-hand combat to acheive his victory, which probably did take a lot longer than 5 minutes to do.

He took out a good 50 droids with each force wave. He's never shown anything like that again. So you can;t use the argument that we don't see Luke constantly crushing people therefore he could not have defeated DE Sidious in Lightsaber combat.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Windu was a straight up badass warrior, but that's another argument.

I never denied this. He's one of 2 people as of the Movies who can even compete with the Emporer (as per George Lucas's own words). Im talking about double standards used against DE Luke.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And it can't even be compared to Luke getting his ass dropped and mind dominated by Palpatine one day and then easily defeating him the next.

Believe it or not what happened there actually makes perfect sense. About to address it in my next post.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Not the point.

Before Leia helped, Sidious was essentially having his way with Luke.

Then when they fought a second time, Leia used Battle Meditation and focused her raw Force power with Anakin, and through writer's-fiat showed Sidious what the ever-embracing warmth of the Light side could do.

This allowed Luke to gain the upper hand, and spare himself another one-sided ass beating from the Sith Lord.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes in that regard. It just doesn't make sense otherwise how Palpatine could dominate him the first time and then lose the second time unless she was helping him.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
it can't even be compared to Luke getting his ass dropped and mind dominated by Palpatine one day and then easily defeating him the next.



Ok lads since Im probably the only one who found his old copy and read the whole of DE(and the handbook) again since this debate began I will enlighten you with something new that everyone has completely missed.

Luke and DE Sidious's first fight:

First it wasn't a complete stomp like people here are making out. You can't just look at the pictures with a Graphic Novel, it's also a novel so you have to read the words as well.

It wasn't just one blow of Sidious that put Luke down (as the pictures alone present), there were a few blow(S) that Luke parried off first, and what we do see from the picture is one of those blows was a Saber Lock in which they were both locked with what seemed to be pretty equal strength.

And then there's the fact that at the start of the fight Luke Force Smacked DE Sidious to the wall. (How many Jedi do you think are even capable of that??) It says a lot about Luke Force Powers.

So the fight did take effort from DE Sidious (the most powerful incarnation of the sith lord) and was by no means a 2 second complete stomp. But yes he clearly did win.

Now here's the part everyone has completely missed:

That first fight was on Byss, a world described by the graphic novel as being "Entirely Eveloped in the Power of the Dark Side"..

So it was much like Vjun, where Dooku challenged Yoda for a second time, and put up a MUCH better duel against the Grand Master of the Jedi.

The second fight however where Luke fought DE Sidious (again the most powerful incarnation of the most powerful sith lord ever) in a Lightsaber fight, after having Leia completely free Luke's mind from the Dark Side..

Luke won it completely fair and square! That's that. End of the story.

I know this doesn't compare to the effort Battlemaster put in (getting out old posts made by DE Luke haters on the subject) but going by the source material this is exactly what happened.

DE Luke was very very powerful. If he dyed down in power after that, it's most likely due to mental restrcitions he's put on himself.

Good job DP.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Now here's the part everyone has completely missed:

That first fight was on Byss, a world described by the graphic novel as being "Entirely Eveloped in the Power of the Dark Side"..





This detail makes a BIG difference IMHO.

Apparently DE Sids can take down Luke at a Dark Side nexus, but without the aid of it...completely different story.

EDIT

I don't think this is as incontrovertible as you are painting it. From Gideon's essay:

The Dark Side Nexus you're discussing is basically an aura of the Emperor's own machinations; it is originally his own energy!

(Frankly, I like your theory, but let's make sure to look at all of the evidence.)

Well, considering what we have seen from other Sith Lords/Dark Siders on Dark Force Nexus', I think we can fairly say that it played a very major role in the victory.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
This detail makes a BIG difference IMHO.

Apparently DE Sids can take down Luke at a Dark Side nexus, but without the aid of it...completely different story.


I would agree, except for the fact that Palpatine himself was desrcibed as dark side nexus (DE endnotes). If memory serves me correctly I believe Leia mentioned that The Eclipse Star Destroyer was very strong with the dark side. So there goes the theory that Palpatine only acheived victory on Byss because of it's strong connection to the dark side. Although Luke was very powerful, he still lacked the proper training to be on Palpatine's level. Palpatine was more powerful, more skilled, and his mastery of the force was far beyond Luke's at that time.

If Luke only needed moral support from Leia like DP is saying, then why wasn't he able to defeat Palpatine on Byss? It wasn't like he was fully consumed by the dark side at that time. He at least had the will power to outright defy Palpatine. He even had a full advantage over Palpatine during their fight on Byss. Luke managed to force push an unarmed Palpatine, who wasn't even yet fully adjusted to his new clone body, and he still got owned.

This is basically how it went down on the Eclipse(their second fight):

Leia tries to convince a lost Luke to get a hold of himself. Him and Leia have some kinda telepathic communication between each other in which Luke calls out to her for help, telling her that he is far too gone in the dark side. And then suddenly, without warning, he's Luke again. So then Palpatine blasts Luke to the floor with lightning, Leia starts to glow and is just standing their posing like she's the "virgin Mary", and then Luke gets this surge of energy and easily defeats Palpatine in a lightsaber duel.

Either that was an extreme case of PIS or Leia used battle meditation to help Luke out. Either way none of it helps him in this thread. He is alone against a sith lord who is far more experienced with the force and his far more attuned to his own power than Luke is.

(I'm only going by memory at this moment. I no longer have a copy of DE 1. Someone had broke into my old residents and stole a lot of my packed stuff, which included some of my SW litarature, while I was in the process of moving. I might consult with Gideon to see if I can find anymore evidents on the matter.)

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
If I can take down Mike Tyson with the aid of a 9 year old girl giving me moral and psychological support that wouldn't impress you??





No, that would sound like the plotline to some cheesy blockbuster.







Originally posted by DARTH POWER

I've so failed at this argument.

Im afraid my comprehension skills are lacking.






You're overlooking obvious things, so yeah.






Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Luke Skywalker Jedi Master defeating the most powerful incarnation of the most powerful sith lord in history, with the aid of his complete novice sister, is not an impressive feat??



No, Genius. Not if he needs his little sister to do it.




Originally posted by DARTH POWER

As Obi-Wan would say: "Well then you are lost!"





I heavily doubt that. Jaunus shares my viewpoints and he easily one of the top tier debators here, and much above you.

If you can't see the inherent logic in our arguments, then it is you, who are lost.










Originally posted by DARTH POWER

This shows your complete lack of common sense. Either that or your blind arrogance and refusal to acknowledge anything ROTJ Luke did as a nice feat.
Boba was concentrating on Luke, while people were panicking and firing all around. His attention was not on the blind smuggler at all.
On the other hand with his FULL attention on Luke, twice mind you, and with Luke's attention elsewhere, Boba goes down to Luke in 2 seconds. Then he goes on to kill the rest of Jabba's guards who likely consist of some of the deadliest killers in the galaxy.
Saying it was just a bad day for him is a seriously desperate argument. Oh yeah Lulz Luke was clearly just having a bad day when he lost to the Emporer! Haha!
Prove Boba wasn't on form the 2 times he attacked Luke or bring up your game. For someone called Battlemaster I would have expected you to have brought your game up by now.







I don't need to bring up a game, that already towers so far above yours.

Luke in RotJ had the lightsaber prowess of Stevie Wonder in a batting cage - something everyone here knows very well.

Most of Jabba's guards weren't among the deadliest killers in the universe - if you knew your Star Wars lore like you're fond of pretending, you would know that.

From what I understand, Boba is at least on par with his dad - and if Jango had been in that fight, he would have picked off both Luke and Solo in a very short amount of time.

If you're supposed to be one of the very deadliest bounty hunters in the galaxy, and a half-blind guy who has been frozen for the last three years takes you out of commission - you know you aren't on a good roll.

Luke in RotJ sucks. Period. If he had fought Jango, he would have never made it off the planet.

Boba getting trashed by an unarmored, partially-disabled man with a pipe, says alot, considering most Mandalorians haven't been known to lose to people like that.

Go read up some history, and then ante' up, 'Tard. angel_not







Originally posted by DARTH POWER

LOL @ toying with him. So when he got kicked onto his rear he was toying? Or when he got beat down to the floor and got his arm chopped off he was toying?
Do you really think he wanted his arm chopped off.. How was he going to help Luke take down the Emporer with his arm chopped off?
Just like young Obi-Wan in a moment of rage briefly matched Darth Maul, the same way young Luke with short anger bursts matched and even surpassed Darth Vader. Deal with it and move on.







No, you'll have to deal with logic, first.

If Vader had wanted to stop Luke, he definitely could have.

Vader is leagues above Luke in skill and power. If Luke's Spaz-attack was really that great, then by your laughably pseudo-logic Luke could have attacked, say Starkiller or perhaps the Emperor that way, and won.






Originally posted by DARTH POWER

You mean having your novice sister aid you in clearing your mind so you can go on to defeat the most powerful incarnation of the most powerful sith lord in history??Yeah real lame that. You need to change your record. Your argument has failed on all levels. Seriousy.





No, you fail even as you challenge the obvious. Leia using her power to aid Luke helps him win the fight - but it isn't an impressive win.







Originally posted by DARTH POWER

They're needless insults of a man/woman losing an argument. Grow up. Your being very childish. And that is a God's honest observation. If I wanted to insult you the whole of my last 2 posts would have been filled with them.







I'm a woman, Genius.

And I'm the one who feels like they're debating a child - you refuse to see obvious facts.

And If I need to sit here and break everything down for you - then you need to go back to learning about Star Wars. Go hit the books.

If you don't need to do that, then we're done arguing.








Originally posted by DARTH POWER

You've been explained this at least 3 times now and have been given poof! You claim to be so SW EU knowledgeable and yet have nothing to go on but baseless speculation and what you see as indications and implications.
She aided him in reaching his peak mental state and his peak connection to the force. The line in DE makes that clear. I've already posted it.





Yeah, and there are other Debators here who say otherwise, just as I do.








Originally posted by DARTH POWER

That's because your comprehension skills are lacking and you didn't unerstand the tory.
He almost got crushed his confused, half way to the dark side, mental state.
And how impressive the feat is depends on who it is who is aiding him. Fact is it was a complete novice padawan, who in her whole career as a Jedi never even becomes a top tier Jedi.
It was a clear headed Luke who did the vast majority of work defeating DE Sidious. Again Deal with it and move on. Try a debate you actually know something about.







Luke needs his little sister to win a fight? Not impressive.

I understand the story.

Luke, even after having been trained under Sidious, still can't defeat him, and suddenly needs the help of his sister.

He gets the help and wins. Without it, he'd be dead. Nothing impressive here.

Go buy a box of tissues.






Originally posted by DARTH POWER

And here again the broken record just keeps repeating itself
If all you need is the is the aid of a complete novice padawan to defeat the most powerful incarnation of the moist? powerful sith lord of all time.
And all you need them to do is just stand there and aid you in clearing your mind, and helping you reach your own potential, then yeah that is damn impressive.





No, that's not impressive, Idiot.

It's not impressive. You're in denial about something very obvious and that is if you need someone elses help to take down a foe, an impressive victory that does not make.

If you want to give props to Luke because you like him, then that's your prerogative.

But understand the position of your argument has no logic to it.










Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Now I know you like to ignore poins you have no answer to so I will ask you won last time.

Could Jedi Knight Anakin with the aid of Ashoka defeat DE Palpatine, or even ROTS Palpatine for that matter??

Could Count Dooku with the aid of Ventress(just meditating and giving him moral and psychological support lol) defeat DE Sidious, or even ROTS Sidious?? Edit: And let's not forget Ventress is far far superior to Padawan Leia in every single possible way.

If not then do you admit DE Luke is far far more impressive than both Jedi Knight Anakin and Count Dooku??

Answer the question. If you can't then stop wasting my slime.








Sure DE Sidious is more impressive than them - he didn't even need help in his fight against Luke. Which I suppose to you would be unimpressive.


Back in the early days of Star Wars, Luke and Leia were the magical wonder-twins of the Force - Leia joining her power to Luke's or giving him the win by magical-PIS win is just how things were written.

Nothing is impressive about it.

If victorious fights consisting of two people or more defeating a single person were considered highly impressive, then they would have tried that with the big Boxing fights of the 20th century.

But through common sense (which you don't seem to have) people know that isn't impressive.

Yeah, we've beaten a dead horse with this one.

You love Luke, and don't wish to give in to logic.

I've repeated the same obvious logic time and time again, and you keep going into denial.

Next you'll be saying that Luke losing to Ponda Baba in the Mos Eisley Cantina and then having Obi-wan jump in was impressive - that's fine.

We both have better things to do with our time, so you believe in what fulfills your happiness and maybe we'll see each other again in future debates. vampire

Originally posted by axel_jovan
Good job DP.





This detail makes a BIG difference IMHO.

Apparently DE Sids can take down Luke at a Dark Side nexus, but without the aid of it...completely different story.




That really damages the concept of DE Sidious truly being the "most powerful Sith Lord in History" if he can only defeat someone at DE Luke's level, and with the help of a Dark side Nexus.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
That really damages the concept of DE Sidious truly being the "most powerful Sith Lord in History" if he can only defeat someone at DE Luke's level, and with the help of a Dark side Nexus.

OR...it proves that DE Luke was more powerful than we thought.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
No, that would sound like the plotline to some cheesy blockbuster.

You're overlooking obvious things, so yeah.

No, Genius. Not if he needs his little sister to do it.


I heavily doubt that. Jaunus shares my viewpoints and he easily one of the top tier debators here, and much above you.

If you can't see the inherent logic in our arguments, then it is you, who are lost.

I don't need to bring up a game, that already towers so far above yours.

Luke in RotJ had the lightsaber prowess of Stevie Wonder in a batting cage - something everyone here knows very well.

Most of Jabba's guards weren't among the deadliest killers in the universe - if you knew your Star Wars lore like you're fond of pretending, you would know that.

From what I understand, Boba is at least on par with his dad - and if Jango had been in that fight, he would have picked off both Luke and Solo in a very short amount of time.

If you're supposed to be one of the very deadliest bounty hunters in the galaxy, and a half-blind guy who has been frozen for the last three years takes you out of commission - you know you aren't on a good roll.

Luke in RotJ sucks. Period. If he had fought Jango, he would have never made it off the planet.

Boba getting trashed by an unarmored, partially-disabled man with a pipe, says alot, considering most Mandalorians haven't been known to lose to people like that.

Go read up some history, and then ante' up, 'Tard. angel_not


No, you'll have to deal with logic, first.

If Vader had wanted to stop Luke, he definitely could have.

Vader is leagues above Luke in skill and power. If Luke's Spaz-attack was really that great, then by your laughably pseudo-logic Luke could have attacked, say Starkiller or perhaps the Emperor that way, and won.

No, you fail even as you challenge the obvious. Leia using her power to aid Luke helps him win the fight - but it isn't an impressive win.


I'm a woman, Genius.

And I'm the one who feels like they're debating a child - you refuse to see obvious facts.

And If I need to sit here and break everything down for you - then you need to go back to learning about Star Wars. Go hit the books.

If you don't need to do that, then we're done arguing.

Yeah, and there are other Debators here who say otherwise, just as I do.

Luke needs his little sister to win a fight? Not impressive.

I understand the story.

Luke, even after having been trained under Sidious, still can't defeat him, and suddenly needs the help of his sister.

He gets the help and wins. Without it, he'd be dead. Nothing impressive here.

Go buy a box of tissues.

No, that's not impressive, Idiot.

It's not impressive. You're in denial about something very obvious and that is if you need someone elses help to take down a foe, an impressive victory that does not make.

If you want to give props to Luke because you like him, then that's your prerogative.

But understand the position of your argument has no logic to it.

Sure DE Sidious is more impressive than them - he didn't even need help in his fight against Luke. Which I suppose to you would be unimpressive.


Back in the early days of Star Wars, Luke and Leia were the magical wonder-twins of the Force - Leia joining her power to Luke's or giving him the win by magical-PIS win is just how things were written.

Nothing is impressive about it.

If victorious fights consisting of two people or more defeating a single person were considered highly impressive, then they would have tried that with the big Boxing fights of the 20th century.

But through common sense (which you don't seem to have) people know that isn't impressive.

Yeah, we've beaten a dead horse with this one.

You love Luke, and don't wish to give in to logic.

I've repeated the same obvious logic time and time again, and you keep going into denial.

Next you'll be saying that Luke losing to Ponda Baba in the Mos Eisley Cantina and then having Obi-wan jump in was impressive - that's fine.

We both have better things to do with our time, so you believe in what fulfills your happiness and maybe we'll see each other again in future debates. vampire

Let's quit the ranting Battlemaster. Im just saying Id rather go by proof than speculation. Especially when a lot of the speculation on these boards comes from a biased point of view.

But you'll be happy to know you're right about Vader vs Luke. Lucas makes it clear in the audio commentary of ROTJ, that Luke is only half trained and not fully equipped to take on Vader.

You see I can be enlightened sometimes I just prefer to go by solid proof, and not speculation

Originally posted by Me


On another note reading DE2 again, they only discover a book on Ossus on how to use Battle meditation in that book. They talk about how Jedi "Used" to use this technique in the old days. Suggesting it's something that's not been known or used in a long time.

So there's no way Padawan Leia could have been using Battle meditation in DE1.

I take this part back. It was confirmed in "Empire's End" that she was using Elementary Battle Meditation against the Emporer in DE1. Hence her great interest in the subject.

Whether she was using it during Luke's lightsaber battle though, Im really not sure. It's not made clear.

All we know for sure is DE Sidious can beat Luke 1 on 1 in a Dark Side nexus but the Jedi twins together are more powerful than DE Sidious on neutral ground.

Luke needed to understand his mistake. He understood it and because of that won, that's impressive.


You consider being corrupted by darkside a positive point? Ok.

We don't know how the story would progress without it. But it is normal that mind dominated Jedi would need help to break free from the spell. And Jedi don't become all powerful just like that, there is always the story with harsh trials and ultimate revelations that make person much stronger. That was the exact story.

Like there is much logic to grasp from your speculations.

If after Palpatine everyone was piece of cake for him, it wouldn't make sense either. Fight between strong foes is never one sided. Lumya was weak in the Force, yet, she was combat expert with very unusual weapon and very clever. She effectively used civilians surrounding her to keep Luke on distance and slashed him at exact momentum, when he got distracted by hatred projected by Alima. Yet, he kept fighting her singlehandedly, while having serious injury and holes in his lung.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Let's quit the ranting Battlemaster. Im just saying Id rather go by proof than speculation. Especially when a lot of the speculation on these boards comes from a biased point of view.

But you'll be happy to know you're right about Vader vs Luke. Lucas makes it clear in the audio commentary of ROTJ, that Luke is only half trained and not fully equipped to take on Vader.

You see I can be enlightened sometimes I just prefer to go by solid proof, and not speculation






Yeah, it's just that alot of the stuff you say that makes me doh is in argument to really basic facts.

Case and point - if it took you to back check a Lucas interview on RotJ to find out Luke was definitely a half-trained fighter/well below Vader, etc, then it shows you really need to study up more before even attempting to argue with me on anything.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Jeez BM! DE Luke can not catch a break with you Lol. Either he had help from his padawan which apparently completely nullifies the feat.. Or if he did legitimately defeat him, then its because DE Sidious wasn't all that powerful


Luke only beat him in the Lightsaber duel, when they were fighting above the pinnacle base. (Similar to how Mace Windu defeated ROTS Sidious in a lightsaber battle. Similar in the sense that I doubt anyone is going to argue the fact that ROTS Sidious was still more powerful than Mace Windu. But still to defeat him we know Mace must have also been a very powerful warrior.)

Luke still needed Leia's help to defeat DE Sidious's full power of the Force though (Force storm).



I understand you like Luke alot, and I respect that.

Either way, if it turns out that the most powerful incarnation of Darth Sidious could only defeat Luke a handful of years after he skirted past a loving-Vader, and only apparently when in the presence of a Nexus - that looks unmistakably bad.

I mean, Darth Bane - the namesake opponant of this very thread, with all his skills, abilities and Orbalisk armor, could defeat DE Luke by himself, and without the need of a Nexus.

Yet, Bane isn't supposed to be as powerful as DE Sidious.

Isn't supposed to be.










Originally posted by DARTH POWER

On another note reading DE2 again, they only discover a book on Ossus on how to use Battle meditation in that book. They talk about how Jedi "Used" to use this technique in the old days. Suggesting it's something that's not been known or used in a long time.

So there's no way Padawan Leia could have been using Battle meditation in DE1.




It could have been a MacGuffin.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
OR...it proves that DE Luke was more powerful than we thought.



No. The point is that he isn't very powerful by this point.

That's why he needed Leia - and he's also fighting Palpatine, who should know and be readily capable of more than him.

Luke isn't a heavy-hitter yet, and for the most powerful incarnation of Darth Sidious to only be able to defeat him with the aid of a Nexus is kind of bad. Yeah.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
No. The point is that he isn't very powerful by this point.

That's why he needed Leia - and he's also fighting Palpatine, who should know and be readily capable of more than him.

Luke isn't a heavy-hitter yet, and for the most powerful incarnation of Darth Sidious to only be able to defeat him with the aid of a Nexus is kind of bad. Yeah.

This begs the question.

http://blog.lib.umn.edu/paldr001/myblog/Oh%20Snap.jpg

Originally posted by Battlemaster


Case and point - if it took you to back check a Lucas interview on RotJ to find out Luke was definitely a half-trained fighter/well below Vader, etc, then it shows you really need to study up more before even attempting to argue with me on anything.

Well not really. This is only something that came into question since the prequels.

Everything about the original movie, script and novel has Luke being fully trained and legitimately defeating Vader. It's not my fault Lucas is so inconsistent. That's bound to cause confusion without Lucas clearing things up.

But anyway I believe I said Luke beat Vader down in a rage and I compared it to the way TPM Obi-Wan temporarily matched Maul in a fit of rage.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
No. The point is that he isn't very powerful by this point.

That's why he needed Leia - and he's also fighting Palpatine, who should know and be readily capable of more than him.

Luke isn't a heavy-hitter yet, and for the most powerful incarnation of Darth Sidious to only be able to defeat him with the aid of a Nexus is kind of bad. Yeah.

Still not sure where your getting that DE Luke is not a heavy hitter.

This is DE Sidious, as in considerably more powerful than ROTS Sidious. So the fact is even ROTS Yoda would need help to take him down.

Also Luke force waved DE Sidious to the wall whilst on a Dark Side world (something I highly doubt anyone below ROTS Mace could do)

^Agreed.

Really, it's hard to determine the extend of DE Luke's Force powers (though he IS a top-tier IMHO), but saber-wise him fighting (and beating) DE SIdious says a lot.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well not really. This is only something that came into question since the prequels.

Everything about the original movie, script and novel has Luke being fully trained and legitimately defeating Vader. It's not my fault Lucas is so inconsistent. That's bound to cause confusion without Lucas clearing things up.






No, no it doesn't.

To the average viewer, it might seem slightly ambiguous as to just how much schooling Skywalker had.

Just watching the movies alone with keen observation let's you understand he had maybe a few days with Obi-wan and a week or so with Yoda.

I remember a while back when people were arguing about whether it was a week or a few years.

Either way, it's irrelevant. Point is, a few weeks or a few years is NOT fully-trained in Jedi terms.

Fully trained is at least spending the ten or so years with an assigned Knight or Master and then passing the Trials.

What Luke had was more or less a crash-course on how to be a Jedi. And it makes sense considering how little he knew and how clumsy he was with a saber.

Anyway, my earlier point, was that the issue of Luke's level of profiency, is one of the parts of Jedi/Sith lore that is very basic subject matter.

I could have told you instantly whether he was fully trained or not, and why, and it's easy to know.

If you have to back-check it, like it's some complex question, then that's a bad sign.




Originally posted by DARTH POWER

But anyway I believe I said Luke beat Vader down in a rage and I compared it to the way TPM Obi-Wan temporarily matched Maul in a fit of rage.




Luke didn't temporarily match Vader though. It was very clear throughout the entirety of those scenes that Vader did not want to harm or kill Luke.

Luke was right. He could sense the conflict within Vader.

Vader pretty much allowed himself to be overwhelmed by Luke's clumsy temper tantrum.


Obi-wan on the other hand, displayed a cadence of gracefully and expertly-honed movements, all fueled by controlled-fury - as opposed to a spaz-attack.






Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Still not sure where your getting that DE Luke is not a heavy hitter.

This is DE Sidious, as in considerably more powerful than ROTS Sidious. So the fact is even ROTS Yoda would need help to take him down.



You know what Darth Power? I'm not so sure anymore.

How much more powerful was DE Sidious really, if he needed to be on a Nexus to do all those things?

DE Sidious could be like Kar Vastor - awesome if he is in a certain environment - but remove him from that environment, and his power is significantly reduced.

We know that DE Sidious has greater knowledge of Dark side, thanks to his attainment of many stores of said knowledge, but his lightsaber skills wouldn't have gotten much better than they were in RotS, and apparently, the Well of his Force power is only increased when in the presence of a Nexus.

And RotS Yoda wouldn't need help to take him down in a lightsaber duel, seeing as how DE Sidious is basically the same there as his earlier incarnation.

Luke, obviously would.


I would say that Luke in DE was probably a notch or two above RotS Anakin in Force ability and lightsaber skill.

So, is that a heavy-hitter, though?

Maybe. It's still not Yoda, though.








Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Also Luke force waved DE Sidious to the wall whilst on a Dark Side world (something I highly doubt anyone below ROTS Mace could do)




He was Force pushed while arrogantly talking to Luke, the same way Yoda suddenly Force pushed him on Coruscant.

Obviously though, in neither situation did he use TK to defend himself (Root himself/disperse the TK) in the situation. In Luke's case he got lucky, since it was a free hit.

Originally posted by Battlemaster

Fully trained is at least spending the ten or so years with an assigned Knight or Master and then passing the Trials.


Where did you get this from? Iv never heard of there being a specific time period. Surely Everyone learns at different rates don't they?

Lucas makes it clear the reason he's not fully trained is that he left his training with Yoda. Implying that if he stayed he would have been fully trained by now.

Also Lucas says he was Half trained. He could have said only partly trained or a third trained, but he specifically says half trained. Despite not having spent 5 years(half of what your saying) under a Jedi Master.

Also by this condition he was never fully trained.



Originally posted by Battlemaster
Luke didn't temporarily match Vader though. It was very clear throughout the entirety of those scenes that Vader did not want to harm or kill Luke.

Luke was right. He could sense the conflict within Vader.

Vader pretty much allowed himself to be overwhelmed by Luke's clumsy temper tantrum.

Not according to the novel. Which states Vader was getting annoyed that his son was overpowering him. He was shocked how much Luke had improved since their encounter on Bespin (despite not having trained under a Master since).

In any case it makes no sense Vader allowed his hand to get chopped off. The Emporer was trying to turn Luke and have him kill Vader. So Vader would be very very stupid to leave himself open to a killing blow from Luke, and be easy pickings for the Emporer.


Originally posted by Battlemaster
Obi-wan on the other hand, displayed a cadence of gracefully and expertly-honed movements, all fueled by controlled-fury - as opposed to a spaz-attack.

Whatever skill he displayed it might as well have been swinging a bat from Maul's perspective.

Maul had Mastered Juyo, Teras Kasi and the use of the Double bladed weapon.

Maul proved himself a superior fighter to Anoon Bondara whose skills with a Saber were second to none.

Sidious himself believed Maul's skill as a warrior to be unmatched.

In comparison Obi-Wan was merely proficient in Ataro. So unless the Force suddenly boosted his technical ability, it's obvious the boost in his power drawing from his rage obviously made That much of a difference. For him to temporarily match someone far far more skilled than him in every way.



Originally posted by Battlemaster
He was Force pushed while arrogantly talking to Luke, the same way Yoda suddenly Force pushed him on Coruscant.

Obviously though, in neither situation did he use TK to defend himself (Root himself/disperse the TK) in the situation. In Luke's case he got lucky, since it was a free hit.

Point being you wouldn't catch Kit Fisto, Plo-Koon or Obi-Wan Kenobi doing that to Sidious. Especially not on a Dark Side world.

Edit- Oh and he also took a few strikes from him, and even matched him in a Saber Lock all on a Dark Side world.

Sidious even says to him "Did you really think you could conquer me here on my throne world" Further proving the advantage Palpatine has there.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Where did you get this from? Iv never heard of there being a specific time period. Surely Everyone learns at different rates don't they?

Lucas makes it clear the reason he's not fully trained is that he left his training with Yoda. Implying that if he stayed he would have been fully trained by now.

Also Lucas says he was Half trained. He could have said only partly trained or a third trained, but he specifically says half trained. Despite not having spent 5 years(half of what your saying) under a Jedi Master.

Also by this condition he was never fully trained.






Oh my God. Seriously?

Yes - there is a specific time period for tutelage under a Master.

Potential Jedi are taken at six months to be trained, they then spend their childhood as Initiates and as pre-teens are handed over to a Knight or Master to be trained until their young adulthood, when they become full-fledged Jedi.

That, or at least having the full Apprenticeship (10+years under a Knight/Master) is fully-trained in the Jedi way.

Lucas says "Half trained" implying loosely that he's nowhere near the training of an actual Knight. That's all.

Yes, duh. We know Luke wasn't fully trained. Holy crap, this is basic shit.






Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Not according to the novel. Which states Vader was getting annoyed that his son was overpowering him. He was shocked how much Luke had improved since their encounter on Bespin (despite not having trained under a Master since).





Yeah - and also in the Novel, Luke blocked/absorbed some of Palpatine's lightning with his hand.

Movies trump novels in terms of canon, and we're talking Canon here.





Originally posted by DARTH POWER

In any case it makes no sense Vader allowed his hand to get chopped off. The Emporer was trying to turn Luke and have him kill Vader. So Vader would be very very stupid to leave himself open to a killing blow from Luke, and be easy pickings for the Emporer.





Again, Vader was very confused emotionally at this time, hence leaving himself exposed.

Watch the damn movie.






Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Whatever skill he displayed it might as well have been swinging a bat from Maul's perspective.
Maul had Mastered Juyo, Teras Kasi and the use of the Double bladed weapon.
Maul proved himself a superior fighter to Anoon Bondara whose skills with a Saber were second to none.
Sidious himself believed Maul's skill as a warrior to be unmatched.
In comparison Obi-Wan was merely proficient in Ataro. So unless the Force suddenly boosted his technical ability, it's obvious the boost in his power drawing from his rage obviously made That much of a difference. For him to temporarily match someone far far more skilled than him in every way.





Yep Kenobi drew upon the Force and fueled his fury and it gave him focus, etc - that's a hell of a lot better than what RotJ Luke could have done.





Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Point being you wouldn't catch Kit Fisto, Plo-Koon or Obi-Wan Kenobi doing that to Sidious. Especially not on a Dark Side world.





If Sidious left himself unguarded as he did with Luke, one of those guys pushing him, wouldn't surprise me.

Sidius would kill their ass after he got up, though.







Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Edit- and even matched him in a Saber Lock all on a Dark Side world.





Yeah, and Obi-wan matched Dooku in a saber lock for a little while, too.








Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Sidious even says to him "Did you really think you could conquer me here on my throne world" Further proving the advantage Palpatine has there .






Yeesh. No wonder Darth Nihilus could whip DE Sidious's ass. It all makes sense now.

(Reference to an earlier Thread I was reading before I responded to this one)

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Oh my God. Seriously?

Yes - there is a specific time period for tutelage under a Master.

Potential Jedi are taken at six months to be trained, they then spend their childhood as Initiates and as pre-teens are handed over to a Knight or Master to be trained until their young adulthood, when they become full-fledged Jedi.

That, or at least having the full Apprenticeship (10+years under a Knight/Master) is fully-trained in the Jedi way.

Lucas says "Half trained" implying loosely that he's nowhere near the training of an actual Knight. That's all.

Yes, duh. We know Luke wasn't fully trained. Holy crap, this is basic shit.

I know that's the normal method showed to us by the prequels.

What I asked you is if you have a source that says you Have to train for 10 years to become a Knight. In other words could someone very talented not complete his training in 5 years for example. Or are you claiming everyone learns at exactly the same rate?


Originally posted by Battlemaster


Yep Kenobi drew upon the Force and fueled his fury and it gave him focus, etc - that's a hell of a lot better than what RotJ Luke could have done.

So you admit if one's in an extreme rage they can compete against someone far far far more skilled than themselves??

That's my point. I don't see why your arguing it tbh.


Originally posted by Battlemaster
If Sidious left himself unguarded as he did with Luke, one of those guys pushing him, wouldn't surprise me.

Sidius would kill their ass after he got up, though.

Nah I don't believe that. Sidious has naturally powerful force defenses. Anakin tries attacking Dooku with the Force in the CW movie. He gets Dooku by surprise but all it does is stagger Dooku.

Dooku does not fall.

And those guys would all go down to Sidious in one stroke. (Obi-Wan with one wave of the hand).

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Yeah, and Obi-wan matched Dooku in a saber lock for a little while, too.

Nah Not Comparable AT ALL. Dooku was toying with Obi-Wan. Dooku was smiling during that lock, whilst Obi-Wan was clearly struggling for his life.

On the contrary with DE Luke against DE Sids they were both locked equally both struggling.

Originally posted by Battlemaster




Yeah - and also in the Novel, Luke blocked/absorbed some of Palpatine's lightning with his hand.

Movies trump novels in terms of canon, and we're talking Canon here.


Again, Vader was very confused emotionally at this time, hence leaving himself exposed.

Watch the damn movie.




First of all I have the novel. And Luke ATTEMPTS to block some of Sidious's Lightning but fails miserably.

The novels based on the movies are all considered G-Canon except where they clearly contradict the movie. The novels are more canon than any other eu material believe it or not.

And talking of watching the movie? Lol! Besides the fact that I was watching that movie long long before the prequels, your still missing the basic truth.

What the original movie, novel and script all show is the same thing. That Luke was fully trained and legitimately beating Vader.

This "basic knowledge" (as you put it) of Luke not being fully trained has only come about in the last few years. Lucas retconned that after the prequels.

Yes that's canon now, but don't expect me to see that from the movie Lol.

Have you seen the movie? Did you miss Yoda saying to Luke "No more training do you require.." Or Vader telling Luke "Your skills are now complete" contrary to what he told him in ESB "The Force is with you young Skywalker, but you're not A Jedi YET.."

And then theres the novel which makes it clear Luke was legitimately defeating Vader. Even in the redrafted version of the novel which came out in 1999 (same year as TPM).

Do you see where Im coming from now? Yes It's canon now that Luke wasn't fully trained. But honestly Lucas did HAVE TO confirm that, because everything about the Original version of the movie, novel and script says the opposite.

Which is why I always took the middle ground and said Vader held back with his Force TK, but Luke in a fit of rage was able to compete and best him in the Lightsaber duel. Much like the way TPM Obi-Wan competed with Maul in a fit of rage.

Edit- And do you even know how much difference there was between TPM Obi-Wan and Maul in skill and training??

Miles and miles and miles of difference. Seriously, theres not even a comparison in skill or training there.

So if padawan Obi-Wan can compete with Maul in a rage, I don't see what's so difficult to believe that ROTJ Luke could compete with Vader whilst giving into his anger (and only purely in a Saber duel..).

Especially considering the Force was much stronger in Luke than with broken Vader. Whilst the idea of the Force being stronger in Obi-Wan than with Maul seems more unlikely now than ever (as per the continuing revelations about Maul's history from the CW series).

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I know that's the normal method showed to us by the prequels.
In other words could someone very talented not complete his training in 5 years for example. Or are you claiming everyone learns at exactly the same rate?







I know that in terms of Masterhood, at times, Jedi can skip testing for that, and proclaim themselves a Master - though that is highly frowned upon by the Council.

Traditionally speaking - all Jedi are trained from at least their pre-teens into their young adulthood. That is the way in which Jedi progress through their training, and being able to learn faster or slower has nothing to do with overall length required.






Originally posted by DARTH POWER

What I asked you is if you have a source that says you Have to train for 10 years to become a Knight.



If you have to ask me for a source, then that means you aren't already experienced enough with the material at hand.

This is basic stuff. doh

If you need more info on this, then you are a Newbie, if you are a Newbie, then I don't need to waste time debating with you.








Originally posted by DARTH POWER

So you admit if one's in an extreme rage they can compete against someone far far far more skilled than themselves??

That's my point. I don't see why your arguing it tbh.






Obi-Wan = Actual classically-trained, highly skilled Jedi Knight (Level)

Luke = Had a crash course and is clumsy and comparatively inexperienced; also has temper tantrums.


Apples; oranges.









Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Nah I don't believe that. Sidious has naturally powerful force defenses. Anakin tries attacking Dooku with the Force in the CW movie. He gets Dooku by surprise but all it does is stagger Dooku.

Dooku does not fall.

And those guys would all go down to Sidious in one stroke. (Obi-Wan with one wave of the hand).





I would think Obi-wan would last longer than the rest of those guys.

Also, both Yoda and Sidious let their guard (I.E. no shielding) down on Coruscant during the opening moments of their speeches. So it's possible for an unguarded opponent to be knocked down. Regardless of how powerful he is.








Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Nah Not Comparable AT ALL. Dooku was toying with Obi-Wan. Dooku was smiling during that lock, whilst Obi-Wan was clearly struggling for his life. On the contrary with DE Luke against DE Sids they were both locked equally both struggling.





And Sidious had just jumped into the body of a Clone that had spent it's entire incubation floating in a cylinder of gel, and had never exerted it's muscles before.

Think of Neo, when he had been taken out of his goo-filled Pod and out of the Matrix for the first time, and the others commented on how he would have trouble walking and standing, much less lifting things, because he had never used his muscles before.

After their momentarily saber-lock, Sidious then promptly disarmed Luke and had him at his mercy.


Also, I noticed the second time around, after Palpatine had been in his newer Clone body for quite some time, it was Palpatine who was over-powering Luke in the saber-lock.


(And yeah, I looked through the comic again, and damn, Leia is glowing! Like, Force Harmony glowing or Battle Meditation glowing. )

That's not how this works.

In any argument, it is exceptionally easy to make claims. (There's one right there!) Once one has made an assertion, it becomes important to substantiate said claim. It is not the responsibility of one's opponents to do the legwork to prove said claims; the onus to provide evidence is on the person taking a stand. From this thread:

For such a claim (one that is easily verifiable with a specific excerpt from a specific source) it is not unreasonable to ask for a source. And if, as you claim, this is "basic stuff" then it will certainly be a trivial matter for you to provide evidence.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
First of all I have the novel. And Luke ATTEMPTS to block some of Sidious's Lightning but fails miserably.The novels based on the movies are all considered G-Canon except where they clearly contradict the movie. The novels are more canon than any other eu material believe it or not.And talking of watching the movie? Lol! Besides the fact that I was watching that movie long long before the prequels, your still missing the basic truth.What the original movie, novel and script all show is the same thing. That Luke was fully trained and legitimately beating Vader.This "basic knowledge" (as you put it) of Luke not being fully trained has only come about in the last few years. Lucas retconned that after the prequels.Yes that's canon now, but don't expect me to see that from the movie LolHave you seen the movie? Did you miss Yoda saying to Luke "No more training do you require.." Or Vader telling Luke "Your skills are now complete" contrary to what he told him in ESB "The Force is with you young Skywalker, but you're not A Jedi YEAnd then theres the novel which makes it clear Luke was legitimately defeating Vader. Even in the redrafted version of the novel which came out in 1999 (same year as TPM).Do you see where Im coming from now? Yes It's canon now that Luke wasn't fully trained. But honestly Lucas did HAVE TO confirm that, because everything about the Original version of the movie, novel and script says the oppositeWhich is why I always took the middle ground and said Vader held back with his Force TK, but Luke in a fit of rage was able to compete and best him in the Lightsaber duel. Much like the way TPM Obi-Wan competed with Maul in a fit of rage Edit- And do you even know how much difference there was between TPM Obi-Wan and Maul in skill and training?Miles and miles and miles of difference. Seriously, theres not even a comparison in skill or training there.So if padawan Obi-Wan can compete with Maul in a rage, I don't see what's so difficult to believe that ROTJ Luke could compete with Vader whilst giving into his anger (and only purely in a Saber duel..)Especially considering the Force was much stronger in Luke than with broken Vader. Whilst the idea of the Force being stronger in Obi-Wan than with Maul seems more unlikely now than ever (as per the continuing revelations about Maul's history from the CW series).






No. You're clearly, an Idiot.

It was clear from the get-go he wasn't fully-trained. He had a week of training with one guy and maybe a few weeks to one year of training with another. That's all.

Even the most incompetent moron could understand that doesn't amount to full training in such a complex field.

Either you're slow, or you really are a Newbie, and you're just trying to pull my leg.

In simple terms Movie Canon makes it clear that Vader was emotionally-conflicted and couldn't bring himself to truly harm or kill his son.

If you're bright enough, you can intellectually connect the dots regarding Vader's experiences dealing with the likes of Starkiller, and how he gave the man hell.

Luke, using his pitiful temper tantrum still wouldn't last two seconds in a lightsaber duel against the man Vader nearly demolished.

Vader was holding back, considerably. If you're too mentally dim to see this, or you don't want to accept it. Let me know, because I have better things to do with my time, than waste it arguing with a stubborn Newbie.



And Obi-wan and his fury against Maul, and Luke and his temper-tantrum with his loving Father, are apples and oranges.

And the CW series doesn't contain "Revelations" - it's a children's show.


(Sorry for that , Nephthys, I know you like that show)

I like the old series made by the same guys who did Samurai Jack. I've only ever seen the Mortis trilogy from the CGI series.

And no need to apologise, I watch childrens shows all the time. Most of my favourite shows are childrens shows.

Edit: DARTH POWER has been a member of this forum for 4 years, he's not a newbie.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
I know, but if you give a mouse a cookie, it's going to ask for a glass of milk.

I'm not in the business of teaching Newbies anymore. It's tiring.

If he doesn't know enough about the Jedi Order, he needs to go buy the books or at least check the Wiki (and it's accompanying source) and study up.

I like to debate knowledgeable fans, not rookies.
OK, we are all in awe of your mastery of the minutia of the saga. Great. Cool.

What is the source? You'll notice that when the most recognized poster on this forum put together his comprehensive argument regarding Sidious, every single accomplishment was cited!

We are more likely to take your side if you can prove what you're saying is accurate.









Where is the 10 year minimum explicitly stated?

edit: fyi, posturing is not likely to win this dispute for you; we've been beholden to textual evidence for far too long for sophistry to get around this particular roadblock. Either provide the quote or it'll be seen as a concession.]

I've never heard of this rule either btw. A source would be nice.

Edit

Originally posted by Nephthys

Edit: DARTH POWER has been a member of this forum for 4 years, he's not a newbie.



He's doing a fantastic job of fooling me.

http://ih3.redbubble.net/work.3649000.1.fc,550x550,white.v3.jpg

Originally posted by Battlemaster
No. You're clearly, an Idiot.

It was clear from the get-go he wasn't fully-trained. He had a week of training with one guy and maybe a few weeks to one year of training with another. That's all.

Even the most incompetent moron could understand that doesn't amount to full training in such a complex field.

Either you're slow, or you really are a Newbie, and you're just trying to pull my leg.

In simple terms Movie Canon makes it clear that Vader was emotionally-conflicted and couldn't bring himself to truly harm or kill his son.

If you're bright enough, you can intellectually connect the dots regarding Vader's experiences dealing with the likes of Starkiller, and how he gave the man hell.

Luke, using his pitiful temper tantrum still wouldn't last two seconds in a lightsaber duel against the man Vader nearly demolished.

Vader was holding back, considerably. If you're too mentally dim to see this, or you don't want to accept it. Let me know, because I have better things to do with my time, than waste it arguing with a stubborn Newbie.



And Obi-wan and his fury against Maul, and Luke and his temper-tantrum with his loving Father, are apples and oranges.

And the CW series doesn't contain "Revelations" - it's a children's show.


(Sorry for that , Nephthys, I know you like that show)
http://images.mylittlefacewhen.com/media/f/img/mlfw2238-AJ_Butthurt_2.png

Originally posted by Arhael
http://images.mylittlefacewhen.com/media/f/img/mlfw2238-AJ_Butthurt_2.png




http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/1279154815841-300x225.jpg

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Alright, so I understand - are you asking me to produce a source that confirms Anakin's skipping of the Initiate-stage and going from conventional Padawan to Knight?

It wouldn't be ten solid years, but typically something around that. That's what I was implying.


I am admittedly shocked that some of the others around here don't know that.

We know proper training consists of 6 months to the age of 13 according to Canon. Typically around that time a Jedi-in-training goes to one of the Corps or is handed over to a Master or Knight for training until early adulthood.

The rough estimate would be ten years, give or take. (For the accepted minimum)

Anakin's circumstance was considered rare in the Order, and though he didn't partake in Initiate training, he still was conventionally and officially required to train from Padawan to Knight.

Anakin was around 10 when he began his Padawan training and then trained until not long after the Battle of Praesitlyn, where he was Knighted at the age of 22.

Essentially, if we aren't talking about the Pre-Ruusan Reformation, then we're going by conventional proper training, which is 6 months-13 years and from there 13 to 22-25.

Obviously, it's not a few weeks or a year.



Honestly, none of this is even remotely complicated.

I didn't speak of it to sound knowledgeable.

It would be like me stating the age of human childhood to teenage years and from there to adult years, to someone else who spoke as if they didn't know.

This is very basic stuff.


In fact, I would think that everyone that has read all the Clone Wars novels, PT novels and OT novels alike, would have a good working knowledge of this.

The tiring part in debates is when people ask you proof for retardedly basic questions, and you're like, http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/picard_facepalm2-300x226.jpg



There is no such event as the Battle of Praesitlyn

Source?

Originally posted by Rookwood
There is no such event as the Battle of Praesitlyn

Source?




...Wow.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
It wouldn't be ten solid years, but typically something around that. That's what I was implying.


I am admittedly shocked that some of the others around here don't know that.

We know proper training consists of 6 months to the age of 13 according to Canon. Typically around that time a Jedi-in-training goes to one of the Corps or is handed over to a Master or Knight for training until early adulthood.

The rough estimate would be ten years, give or take. (For the accepted minimum)

If I'm understanding you correctly you've estimated the amount of years training thats required to become a Knight and then berated a fellow member for not reading your mind and knowing about your estimation.


Wow indeed.

Originally posted by Nephthys
If I'm understanding you correctly you've estimated the amount of years training thats required to become a Knight and then berated a fellow member for not reading your mind and knowing about your estimation.


Wow indeed.




Well, Sweetheart, I honestly thought this was basic knowledge. Really.

Its not basic knowledge if you make it up.

Obviously we all know that Jedi are brought in young and all, but I've never heard anything about a requirement of 10 years before Knighthood.

^^ I second that... That I didn't know of this 10 year thing.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its not basic knowledge if you make it up.

Obviously we all know that Jedi are brought in young and all, but I've never heard anything about a requirement of 10 years before Knighthood.



http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/yet_another_picard_facepalm_flip-300x235.jpg


Anakin's case was considered rare, in that he was the oldest human brought to the Council since the old era to receive training.

They didn't even want to accept him, but in the end, he was old enough to formally enter into an Apprenticeship. (Padawan--Knight)

His case bears the official Canonical minimum requirement for a Human in the Order.


I seriously thought everyone here knew this.

So, nothing is made up. It's obvious information, I just thought everyone here knew enough of the material for me to not have to tell them.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Anakin's case was considered rare, in that he was the oldest human brought to the Council since the old era to receive training.

Nope. Rahm Kota was actually older. IIRC he was 18.



Nah. There are Jedi who were trained for far less like Jaden Korr and Nomi Sunrider.

Regardless, nothing has ever stated that you need to be trained ten years to be "fully trained". That's just some BS you made up and were called out on.

Originally posted by ares834
Nope. Rahm Kota was actually older. IIRC he was 18.



Nah. There are Jedi who were trained for far less like Jaden Korr.

Regardless, nothing has ever stated that you need to be trained ten years to be "fully trained". That's just some BS you made up and were called out on.

QFT

Good to see members still taking care of business.

Also, did a member with fewer than 300 posts call someone else a newbie?


SRSLY?

Originally posted by Battlemaster
http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/yet_another_picard_facepalm_flip-300x235.jpg


Anakin's case was considered rare, in that he was the oldest human brought to the Council since the old era to receive training.

They didn't even want to accept him, but in the end, he was old enough to formally enter into an Apprenticeship. (Padawan--Knight)

His case bears the official Canonical minimum requirement for a Human in the Order.


I seriously thought everyone here knew this.

So, nothing is made up. It's obvious information, I just thought everyone here knew enough of the material for me to not have to tell them.

Look dude, I've been polite to you, but if you keep being condescending in this manner I'm going to have to ask you to shut the **** up. Learn when to quit.

We know proper training consists of 6 months to the age of 13 according to Canon. Typically around that time a Jedi-in-training goes to one of the Corps or is handed over to a Master or Knight for training until early adulthood.

The rough estimate would be ten years, give or take. (For the accepted minimum)

Anakin's circumstance was considered rare in the Order, and though he didn't partake in Initiate training, he still was conventionally and officially required to train from Padawan to Knight.

Anakin was around 10 when he began his Padawan training and then trained until not long after the Battle of Praesitlyn, where he was Knighted at the age of 22.

A Force user can be fully trained in the Force and combat within a year, if not less. But Jedi Masters spend most of the time on teaching students philosophy, understanding the Force rather than achieving limits of its use and in general giving them experience of life that will make better person out of them. Teaching combat comes on much later stage and even then it is not the main target and little time is dedicated to it. With Sith it is different, there are no limits, they drill Force applications and combat skills right from the beginning, within a short time period they become strong enough to confront a master.

As for DARTH POWER saying about Emperor being imbued by darkside nexus of Byss planet, it looks more like he simply makes fun out of you by giving very same speculations like you saying that Lea was Force empowering Luke.
Yes, there was support from her but not something increasing physical capabilities. It is power of emotion, Lea hoped that Luke would win and Luke felt it due to natural bond. It is responsibility to protect his sister and everything he stood for driving him to limits of his potential.

Another fact is that Sith are always more practiced, more knowledgeable about offensive powers and skills and have greater power in general. Yet, lightside can give Jedi much better self-control during fight.
Jedi are guided by the Force, while Sith abuse it. It has a meaning.
Luke gave in fully to the lightside, his moves were guided by the Force. The Force itself was on his side, he became its tool.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/yet_another_picard_facepalm_flip-300x235.jpg


Anakin's case was considered rare, in that he was the oldest human brought to the Council since the old era to receive training.

They didn't even want to accept him, but in the end, he was old enough to formally enter into an Apprenticeship. (Padawan--Knight)

His case bears the official Canonical minimum requirement for a Human in the Order.


I seriously thought everyone here knew this.

So, nothing is made up. It's obvious information, I just thought everyone here knew enough of the material for me to not have to tell them.
One thing that's always fascinated me about language is the way that two people can stare at each other in dismay, each baffled at the other's inability to grasp a concept.

Battlemaster, I would encourage you to take a step back from the sort of "don't know the canon" posturing that you've adopted. I can promise that we've all seen the movies / read the books; we don't need to rehash the timeline at a glance. Given that it is best to assume better than minimal proficiency with the material, I think you should look at the kinds of statements being made.






There is an interplay between the idea of a sufficient condition (10 years will make you a Jedi, under the Old System) and a necessary condition (you can't be a Jedi until you log 10 years of training). Running basic numbers on Anakin is enough to indicate that for him, specifically, 10 years was sufficient time to become a Jedi (i.e. (∃x)(x becomes a Jedi in 10 years)). You cannot generalize, however, and say that for ALL x, it takes 10 years.

This is where the argument lies. One claim is much weaker than the other. To say that "for all (x), if x does not have more than 10 years of training then x is not a Jedi" is bold and will require substantial evidenciary support. That is what we are asking for when we ask for quotes.



You have not submitted any quote from canon indicating that there is a specific age at which the Padawan stage must come to an end. The ten year window is certainly more fluid than that, and I would say that a student as unconventional as Luke in ESB/RotJ would require something much, MUCH lower.
There are a lot of peripheral skills explored in the Kenobi/Jinn novels that Yoda didn't have to waste time with. Luke is a coordinated individual, and very powerful in the Force. These are things that have been shown to dramatically reduce learning times.

Let me ask you this: Why the HELL did Yoda bother to tell Luke about Mortis, and yet not take the time to teach him how to block lightning?

How random and forced was it that Luke knew about Mortis? Why would you say THAT to Luke, Yoda?



And RN, stop being so nice! you make us look like pansies. It's been a few years since we destroyed all new people who tried to make assumptions. we are getting out of form.

Originally posted by truejedi
Let me ask you this: Why the HELL did Yoda bother to tell Luke about Mortis, and yet not take the time to teach him how to block lightning?
Wait, this was told to him on Dagobah? WHY?? Couldn't Luke just flow-walk to see him? Or maybe go through that out-of-body thing he did where he drank at the same fountain as Caedus (or something... I'm not current at all)

BM isn't ignoring the concept of canon. So there is potential.

BM also talks earnestly about Star Wars, in the SWVS forum. We haven't accomplished that in months.

Amazing that he can still remember that 40 years later.

i know. and had never spoken of it before at all.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
No. You're clearly, an Idiot... If you're too mentally dim to see this, or you don't want to accept it. Let me know, because I have better things to do with my time, than waste it arguing with a stubborn Newbie.


Is there any need for this? Have I insulted you anywhere despite you not citing one canon source this whole debate, and yet expecting me to accept your "basic canon knowledge"




Originally posted by Battlemaster
And Obi-wan and his fury against Maul, and Luke and his temper-tantrum with his loving Father, are apples and oranges.

The principle is the same..

But Lol @ loving father. Yeah Ive never really encountered a father more loving than Darth Vader.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
And the CW series doesn't contain "Revelations" - it's a children's show.



Well so much for asking you to provide any canon evidence. The show is T-Canon (just below the movies) whether you like it or not.

And some people would argue the whole of Star Wars is for kids.

Originally posted by Rookwood
There is no such event as the Battle of Praesitlyn

Source?

http://www.theforce.net/books/images/jeditrial.jpg

This is without a doubt one of the worst Clone Wars novels, however. If you read it, you have to burn it in the country, and stay upwind.

Originally posted by Rookwood
There is no such event as the Battle of Praesitlyn

Source? Lawl. Internet fail.

Originally posted by ares834
Nope. Rahm Kota was actually older. IIRC he was 18.






I double checked and people who have discussed Kota have admitted his backstory does seem a bit spotty in terms of his induction into the Order.

But If he was at the very least 50, during the events of the game, and took a Padawan just bfore the Clone Wars, he still would have been in his late 20's, early 30's during that time. Indicating his requirement for a full conventional Padawan-Knight Apprenticeship.

Even in their blunder, some logical sense can be made of that character, after all.







Originally posted by ares834

Nah. There are Jedi who were trained for far less like Jaden Korr and Nomi Sunrider.






Before and after the Post-Ruusan Reformation, which are not the periods I'm talking about.










Originally posted by ares834

Regardless, nothing has ever stated that you need to be trained ten years to be "fully trained".







If you read carefully enough, it becomes clear. I was involved in making some Star Wars RPG's a few years back on The Force.Net and had to understand exactly how many years were required for Initiate and Padawan training, so I studied the then known Human examples during the Post-Ruusan Reformation and before the New Order.

The figure deduced for either learning period was roughly ten years.

It's all easily understood, once you've researched it. Give it a try.









Originally posted by ares834

That's just some BS you made up and were called out on.





Well, don't burn me for being a Witch just yet - go research it, and you will see that I'm right.



I remember this same thing happened back when the Lightsaber Forms were first mentioned and I told everyone that Form: I is learned by every Jedi and responsible for blaster-deflection/trained with remotes, etc.

They all wanted to burn me at the stake - and then two years later when what I had said became blatantly Canonized, they were stunned.

The funny part is, all these tidbits of knowledge are easily researchable.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Is there any need for this? Have I insulted you anywhere despite you not citing one canon source this whole debate, and yet expecting me to accept your "basic canon knowledge"







I don't have any reason to be cross with you now - apparently the others are in the dark, too.

You can't blame others for not knowing, I guess.









Originally posted by DARTH POWER

The principle is the same..

But Lol @ loving father. Yeah Ive never really encountered a father more loving than Darth Vader.






Vader held back alot on his boy and saved him. If that isn't love, I don't know what is.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
I don't have any reason to be cross with you now - apparently the others are in the dark, too.

You can't blame others for not knowing, I guess.




Just too be clear: For not knowing what you decided with your RPG buddies, amirite?

Originally posted by truejedi
Just too be clear: For not knowing what you decided with your RPG buddies, amirite?





Take it up with George Lucas. He's the one who wrote the material.
We just noticed what was written there.

If you don't like it, and prefer to bury the truth, blow the cave up.

http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/PlanetApes37.jpg

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Before and after the Post-Ruusan Reformation, which are not the periods I'm talking about.

You are talking about Luke correct?

Then he should be exempt from it as well as Obi-Wan claims he is the "first of the new" Jedi.



Sure. The majority of the Jedi trained during this time period seem to be trained for ten or more years, however that does not make it a requirement.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Vader held back alot on his boy and saved him. If that isn't love, I don't know what is.

http://legacy-cdn.smosh.com/smosh-pit/062011/dad-worst-darth.jpg

I don't have any reason to be cross with you now - apparently the others are in the dark, too.

You can't blame others for not knowing, I guess.

Priceless apology.


RPG logic doesn't work.
The whole point you bring about years required to achieve Knight or Master status is pointless for the next reasons.
It is not combat skills and ability to effectively utilize power that grants rank of Knight or Master.
"Fully trained Jedi" definition does not mean that it is Jedi that achieved full potential.
Moreover, Jedi doesn't need to be fully trained to achieve full potential in combat.

Stuff like someone having a lot of outside experience can definitely throw off training times. It certainly didn't take Kyle Katarn or Corran Horn a decade to become fully trained Jedi.

Conversely, plenty of Jedi never make Master, or do so only after much longer (Ki Adi Mundi for example).

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Take it up with George Lucas. He's the one who wrote the material.
We just noticed what was written there.

If you don't like it, and prefer to bury the truth, blow the cave up.


Well you know the audio commentary I checked where Lucas says Luke is only half trained and not fully equipped to take on Vader..

Well in the same commentary he gives the reason why he's only half trained. And the reason is because he left his training with Yoda prematurely, so it's actually his own fault.

There was no mention of requiring 10 years training. In fact Yoda was going to die the next year anyway, so it could have only been 1 year training under him max.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Actually Zampanó, I'd be agreeing with you, but the problem with the idea that training times can be hypothetically random and mixed around, is that the Jedi Order had a specific way of doing things, much like any official institution or school.


BM I think your mixing up Standard Procedure with Skill Progression of different individuals.

There may have been a 10 year standard procedure during the time of the PT, but that doesn't mean every student will learn at the same rate.

Look at Bane. Didn't he defeat Kas'im in just a few years of training??

And look at Kas'im.. The time it took him to Master every form, others may not have even mastered the one form.

You see now to me the different rates at which different Jedi can learn is just basic stuff. Because there's evidence of that all over the SWU.

Look at Savage Opress Lol. He's overpowering Obi-Wan with just a few months of training! I know there was magic involved, but the principle is there throughout the SWU.

You yourself admitted Luke was doing a Crash Course in the Jedi Arts. So clearly there was no requirement for him to follow the standard procedure of the PT era. He just had to learn as fast as he could.

Originally posted by Battlemaster



The figure deduced for either learning period was roughly ten years.

It's all easily understood, once you've researched it. Give it a try.

The funny part is, all these tidbits of knowledge are easily researchable.

BM surely if it's that easy to research you could give us one quote from a canon source which says that's a requirement to complete the skill set required of a Jedi Knight, and not just standard procedure at the time of the PT.

And btw, Maul had Mastered multiple forms and had become a warrior of unmatched skill (according to Sidious) in pretty much the same time it took Obi-Wan to complete his training and merely be proficient in the one form.

So again clearly PT Jedi Standard procedure is different to the rate at which individuals can learn.

The evidence for this is everywhere.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
http://legacy-cdn.smosh.com/smosh-pit/062011/dad-worst-darth.jpg

This made me chuckle.

Originally posted by ares834
You are talking about Luke correct?

Then he should be exempt from it as well as Obi-Wan claims he is the "first of the new" Jedi.



When the Jedi went through their Reformation, they did away with alot of ineffective practices and got rid of bad habits as an organization.

Like an official college or institution, they established an official curriculum and a reasonable time-table to learn it.

This obviously helped in many ways, such as keeping the likelihood of a Sith resurgence (Or any major Dark side resurgence) down.

Luke was the last of the old, and first of the new, but he was nowhere near fully trained as a Jedi Knight would properly be. That's the point.










Originally posted by ares834

Sure. The majority of the Jedi trained during this time period seem to be trained for ten or more years







Correct. And roughly ten years (From Padawan to Knight) tended to be the minimum.

I also noticed that Anakin Skywalker, even after becoming Kenobi's Apprentice, had still trained with the Temple's Battlemaster, Cin Drallig - possibly to add to his skills.













Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well you know the audio commentary I checked where Lucas says Luke is only half trained and not fully equipped to take on Vader..

Well in the same commentary he gives the reason why he's only half trained. And the reason is because he left his training with Yoda prematurely, so it's actually his own fault.

There was no mention of requiring 10 years training. In fact Yoda was going to die the next year anyway, so it could have only been 1 year training under him max.




Yeah, actually - if you watch Empire Strikes Back - that's implied, anyway.

Luke gets a crash-course on Force/Lightsaber basics, and then heads off to Cloud City after the vision.

And in the OT, there was also no mention of "the Sith", but we also know they did exist there.








Originally posted by DARTH POWER
There may have been a 10 year standard procedure during the time of the PT





Correct.







Originally posted by DARTH POWER

, but that doesn't mean every student will learn at the same rate.





Also correct. However, in the official Curriculum, there doesn't seem to be shortcuts.

Anakin was very talented early on, so much so that other Jedi Masters would mention it. And of course as a Padawan he even went toe to toe with the greatest swordsman of the time besides Yoda, and did a good job.

But despite Anakin's talent, and the fact that he was supposed to be a more recent addition to the Order - they did not give him a shortcut through his training time-table, not due to his recent inclusion, nor his talent.

His full Padawan to Knight Apprenticeship was still required.








Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Look at Bane. Didn't he defeat Kas'im in just a few years of training??

And look at Kas'im.. The time it took him to Master every form, others may not have even mastered the one form.

You see now to me the different rates at which different Jedi can learn is just basic stuff. Because there's evidence of that all over the SWU.

Look at Savage Opress Lol. He's overpowering Obi-Wan with just a few months of training! I know there was magic involved, but the principle is there throughout the SWU.





Yup. And they're Sith.







Originally posted by DARTH POWER

You yourself admitted Luke was doing a Crash Course in the Jedi Arts. So clearly there was no requirement for him to follow the standard procedure of the PT era. He just had to learn as fast as he could.





Sure. But Luke wasn't very talented; nor was he fully trained.









Originally posted by DARTH POWER
BM surely if it's that easy to research you could give us one quote from a canon source which says that's a requirement to complete the skill set required of a Jedi Knight, and not just standard procedure at the time of the PT.





Standard Procedure = Requirement


By the way, how many Star Wars books did you say you had read?








Originally posted by DARTH POWER

And btw, Maul had Mastered multiple forms and had become a warrior of unmatched skill (according to Sidious) in pretty much the same time it took Obi-Wan to complete his training and merely be proficient in the one form.






Yup. Maul's a Sith.

^ Point being if a Sith with far less force potential can do it there's no reason why the Jedi with the most force potential (after Anakin) can't do it in a crash course.

Standard procedure was not a requirement for Luke in his special circumstances. If it was then Luke was Never a fully trained Kinght. Not even in the NJO series. Because he never trained under a master for 10 years.

And Lol @ Luke not being a talented student.

Btw Theres a visionary comic, a "what-if" where Luke stays with Yoda to complete his training, and Yoda says to him "Never have I known a student to complete their training so quickly."

Yes I've already agreed Luke was only half trained in ROTJ, but Lucas has made it kind of clear if he stayed with Yoda from ESB to ROTJ then he likely would have been fully trained. The audio commentary of the OT Dvd's came out during filming of ROTS.

Ive had the ROTJ novel since many years before the PT. And even the 1999 re-release suggests nothing about Luke being part trained. According to Yoda and Vader's dialogue in the movie, and according to the novel and script it's clear Luke was fully trained.

But that's something that's been retconned by Lucas since the prequels.

Anakin had most potential with the Force because of the number of midichorians in his blood, but he didn;t have the most potential with a lightsabre that is either Darth Maul or Obi-Wan who were both youing when they were masters.

Erm, potential with a lightsaber? Sure, some people to have a penchant for swordplay, but the style they chose also matters.

Maul wasn't to powerful with the Force, so he went into the physical aspect of the Sith. As such, he was a beast when it came to sabers (In Bane's terms, Maul is a marauder)

Obi-Wan is NOT the best with a saber, and can not be considered such by a long shot. He just so happens to have mastered the most defensive form to its utmost extent (If that would be a correct wording, utmost extent may be false) and therefore could fight many people of the era simply because they couldn't hit him. But if he went offensive he is not nearly as proficient with that as, say, Anakin.

I think Anakin had fully mastered Djem So. As Dooku says he's as fine a user of Djem So as Dooku had ever seen.

Also as early as RODV Vader was trained in all forms of combat presumably including Juyo for which you have to be a High Level Master of multiple other forms.

So chances are Anakin by ROTS had completely mastered his chosen form and was more than proficient(possibly mastery level) in multiple other forms as well.

So No, Obi-Wan was not more talented than him in Saber abilities.

Originally posted by Pwned

Maul wasn't to powerful with the Force, so he went into the physical aspect of the Sith. As such, he was a beast when it came to sabers (In Bane's terms, Maul is a marauder)



To be fair we don't really know the extent of his Force TK. He may have just chose to physically dominate his opponents. Of course nobody can assume he was especially good with the Force until we have feats. CW series may provide some next season.

But from what we know now of Dathomir and Maul's bloodline, the Force was definetely strong with him. His biggest strength however were his Saber and Combat skills. Sort of like a Kas'im type.

Maul was probably more talented than Kas'im seeingas he was not even 20 years of age when he mastered all forms of the lightsaber, plus double bladed lghtsaber and teras Kasi.

Obi-Wan started learning Soresu at the beginning of the Clone Wars and mastered it 2 years into it, so he was the most talented Jedi when it comes to the lightsabre.

Originally posted by Padawan Obi-Wan
Maul was probably more talented than Kas'im seeingas he was not even 20 years of age when he mastered all forms of the lightsaber, plus double bladed lghtsaber and teras Kasi.

Obi-Wan started learning Soresu at the beginning of the Clone Wars and mastered it 2 years into it, so he was the most talented Jedi when it comes to the lightsabre.

Kas'im also mastered the Double bladed weapon and Jar Kai. As well as completely mastering every single form to it's apex. Age is irrelevant. Darth Maul was said to be a Warrior in his prime, never to be any better (TPM novel).

Obi-Wan began learning Soresu after TPM. It took him 12+ years to completely master one form. His chosen form. And it was the only form he ever mastered in his whole career as a Jedi.

Still impressive enough to defeat Crazy Anakin, but not even close to being the "most talented jedi with a lightsaber."

You have your tiomeline wrong and he wasn;t just a master of Soresu but the best master of Soresu, handpicked to fight Girevous.

And never to be any better because he died young. If he lvied to his 20s he would have been better than Yoda.

30s I mean sorry. Maul was just 18 eyars of age. he mastered all forms and could useJarkai and Double Bladed lightsaber, plus teras kasi. He could have just devoted 12 eyars to his force training, and learn really good force defence, plus Yoda does not use force offensively. If Maul sparred with someone of Yoda's size and shape for 12 years he would be able to beat him, no doubt there.

^ You'd be wise to Stop comparing Maul to Yoda.

Why? Maull is way better a swordsman than Yoda is Yoda just a lot smaller and quicker and mroe acrobatic. With time Maul would become more powerful in the Force. Fight is a lot closer than you think. Maull in his 30s would be twice the fighter he was when he killed Qui-Gon, probably the second most powerful Jedi pf the Order. Just think about that for a seocnd, please. yeah, thata is that i thought...

TBH The Empeor is kinda lucxky about his padawan dying in The Phantom Menace... with good enough Force defence Maul would destroy Sidious...

Yoda is a master of every lightsaber form.

Maul was a master of just Juyo.

No he is not Yoda is only master of Atari it is onyl form he ever uses and Maul has been trained in all the forms by his companion droid. ND HE IS JUST 18 EYARS OF AGE...

Yoda favors Ataru because its perfect for making up for his short(haha)comings and weaknesses, but still has complete mastery of every other Form. And while Maul was trained in the other forms I don't recall anything mentioned about mastery.

Well you need to read Darth Maul Journal then. And when Yoda trains Shaak Ti he is only able to give her some trainign in Ataru and she has to switch to Ar Valen for extra training in Makashi. Only other form he knows well is Schi Cho. Plus he is consular so he does not dedicate hismelf to the lgihtsabre like Maul does. Maul wtih good force defence probbaly the best fighter in the entire history of the old republic, except maybe some of the characters from The Knights od the Old Republic like Revan, Malak, Nihilus and Sion.

In pure lightsabre battle Obi-Wan is also up there too. He is better than the likes of Dooku, Anakin, Mace, Sidious, Grievous. His rivals would probably be Qui-Gon and Yoda, and those would probably be stalemates.

I think I'll take my own advice and ignore you. So sure, Maul is the bestest lightsaberer ever. duroll

You DO realize that Yoda was every bit of Count Dooku's superior in swordsmanship, right (even on a planet steeped in the dark side of the Force)?

You also realize that Yoda, whether you like it or not HAS INDEED mastered every form of lightsaber combat EXCEPT for the Vapaad variant of form VII,,, right?

Moreover POW, you DO realize that Dooku completely SCHOOLED Obi-Wan Kenobi in lightsaber combat when they dueled,,,,,,,,,,,, right? Please admit to these things or else go slap the shit outta yourself w/ a jagged brick.

How not? he handles Jinn (at the very elast one of the 5 best with a lightsabre in the entire order at the time, certainly on part with the others) and Obi-Wan at same time, one of the best padawans ever. That feat is almost never ehard of. Even Dooku cannot do that in Attack of the Clones. Yoda never fights multiple people. maull kileld both ANOON bondara and qui-gon two of the best jedis, and dookue only became sidious apprentice when maul died, if her was more powerful why not him in the first place hmm? Maul is probably fastest ever besides Yoda, masters all forms and is a master martial artist as wlel. With force defence, he is unstopbbale (he is also mmune to force lightning in one of the comics.)

Yoda was slightly better than Dooku, and Dooku was beating him on Vunn actually. In Revenge of the Sioth Dooku has to use the force against obi-wan. Yoda did not master all forms, read my posts.

In The Phantom Menace, Anoon Bindara was best ligthsaber duelist of the jedi, and Qui-Gon was on par with him, with Yoda probably up there as well. Those would be 3 best, with Mace and Dooku below them slightly. Well Maull destroyed the best, Anoon, his equal Wui-Gon, and was also ebating Qui-Gon when he ahd the assistance of the best jedi Padawan ever. Using just his lightsaber skills, plus in movies he was quicker than everyone apart from yoda by far, and most sound martial artist and swordsman. Maul is clearly much ebtter in lightsabers than any of the ejdi in the time. Again, possibly Obi-Wan can challenge him by revenge of the Sith who was only person who could defeat girevous (and he destroyed him) as well as beat Anakin.

Originally posted by Padawan Obi-Wan
How not? he handles Jinn (at the very elast one of the 5 best with a lightsabre in the entire order at the time, certainly on part with the others) and Obi-Wan at same time, one of the best padawans ever. That feat is almost never ehard of. Even Dooku cannot do that in Attack of the Clones. Yoda never fights multiple people. maull kileld both ANOON bondara and qui-gon two of the best jedis, and dookue only became sidious apprentice when maul died, if her was more powerful why not him in the first place hmm? Maul is probably fastest ever besides Yoda, masters all forms and is a master martial artist as wlel. With force defence, he is unstopbbale (he is also mmune to force lightning in one of the comics.)

The well is endless isn't it POW?

In no particular order; Provide the source claiming that Maul has mastered every form. Anoon died in an explosion. QGJ was well past his prime and using a style that was greatly limited by the surrounding environment. Dooku duels multiple opponents in the RotS movie AND novel, and is HANDILY beating both Kenobi AND Anakin before Anakin has his famous moment of clarity that allows him to finally overcome Dooku. And no, HELL NO, Dooku was in no way "beating" Yoda of Vjun, EVEN AFTER his pitiful distraction. Yoda was fully in control of that fight from the moment it began.

BTW Anoon being the best duelist is... laughable at the very least. I urge you to RE-examine your source before proceeding further w/ that claim.

Damn Jin...I felt that one, lol.

Jesus; This troll just doesn't give up, does he?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yoda favors Ataru because its perfect for making up for his short(haha)comings and weaknesses, but still has complete mastery of every other Form. And while Maul was trained in the other forms I don't recall anything mentioned about mastery.

I believe his mastery of Juyo, Niman, Jar Kai and Teras Kasi is confirmed. Plus of course mastery of the Saber Staff. And of course Juyo requires mastery of multiple other forms anyway.

Sidious thinks his skills as a warrior are nonpareil, and says to Maul his skill as a master swordsman is peerless.

So he is a beast when it comes to combat skills.

But of course he can't compete with Yoda, Sidious or Mace. He's not powerful enough.

Originally posted by Padawan Obi-Wan
In pure lightsabre battle Obi-Wan is also up there too. He is better than the likes of Dooku, Anakin, Mace, Sidious, Grievous. His rivals would probably be Qui-Gon and Yoda, and those would probably be stalemates.

Yes of course he is. Yoda was stupid to refuse to let Obi-Wan face Sidious. The saga could have ended in episode 3.

Wait... That's not a good thing is it??

Originally posted by Padawan Obi-Wan
No he is not Yoda is only master of Atari



Unless he's implying Yoda was some kind of video game wizard, It's safe to say this guy is just bored and burning some time by attempting to troll.

Lol'd @ Atari. Yoda be masterin' dat shit wit his sick-ass gaming skillz.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Lol'd @ Atari. Yoda be masterin' dat shit wit his sick-ass gaming skillz.


Well he is old-school, isn't he? Atari would be right up his alley.