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http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/ShimrraLosesToVastor.jpg
Versus
http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/355px-KarVastor.jpg



Setting:http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/180px-Jungle_planet.jpghttp://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/4907750487_bffe873b4b.jpg

Haruun Kal - Jungle.


Kar Vastor at his Peak in Shatterpoint is walking through the Jungle, breathing in the Force and holding his twin Vibro-shields, when out of nowhere Overlord Shimrra, from The Unifying Force is warped in, holding his big Amphistaff.

Both are bloodlusted. Kar wants Shimrra dead and out of his jungle, and Shimrra is asking to get his ass kicked.


Can the puppet-leader of the poorly-imagined Villain-Sues, defeat the most powerful Lor Pelek in history, or will he wind up being expelled from Kar's bowls in six to eight hours' time?

Kar wins.


/Thread.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Kar wins.


/Thread.


I want to see proof.

And I will read shatterpoint again.

Well, I came across this thread: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t407223.html

And it seemed that people hadn't really read The Unifying Force (or Shatterpoint for that matter) in a long time, because they overestimated Shimrra and underestimated the superior fighter, Kar.

Funnily, I came across a thread with Shimrra versus Grevious, and after people were stumping for Shimrra, a wise debator reminded them with this:

(On The Unifying Force)
Originally posted by Allankles
...did you guys actually read the fight? He had every advantage on NJO Luke and he still got decapitated. First he set Luke up in a nearly impossible situation. He had his best guards fight Luke while he controlled the gravtity of the platform Luke was fighting on.

So every time Luke would have an advantage in the fight, he'd adjust the gravity and bring Luke down. Not to mention Luke had fought hundreds of Vong before facing Shimrra's elite guard.

After Luke had killed Shimrra's elite, Shimrra took him on but not without first blind siding Luke. Luke was pinned down to the platform and he still decapitated Shimraa with just about the first strike he aimed at him. Shimrra just had brute strength. Luke was exhausted when he faced Shimrra and had to deal with a huge distraction on top of that.


1. Shimrra is essentially a one-dimensional fighter that has two things going for him:

- Extremely enhanced genetic strength
- A very large and powerful Amphistaff, that was technically doing most of the work against Luke in the book, and not Shimrra himself


2. Kar Vastor is a Lor Pelek - a Witch Doctor/Warrior that has access to certain exotic techniques in the Force that even Mace Windu admitted neither Jedi nor Sith seemed to possess.
He acts as a conduit for Force energy - specifically the energy emanating from the monstrous Jungle - effectively making him an Avatar of it's Force power.

- Being a large and heavy black man, he's already physically strong - now add in his Lor Pelek training - and that fact that he was stripped naked and made to survive in Haruun Kal's Jungles by himself at a young age means that he developed himself and survived physically by taking down and eating raw, any animals that he could, by any means necessary.
Nick Rostu even exclaims at how Kar had filed his teeth down on purpose to make them sharp, and how Kar's teeth seemed to have all kinds of bacteria on them, from eating various types of meat - raw (Meaning the guy tracked down prey and killed them, like an animal)
So this is a guy, Force enhanced-strength aside, who is a physical beast with a primal Predatory-mindset.

- As mentioned before, Kar is an Avatar of the Jungle - one chapter had Mace describing Kar along the lines of, "..A beast that sat in the shadows, drawing in breath after icy breath of the Force, wafting in power" (Paraphrase)
Kar acts as a living conduit of energy - drawing in the life and death of the Jungle - feeding off of it, using it to strengthen his already ridiculously-strong body.
Even though he doesn't have as much formal technique as some Jedi Masters do, his Force reserves of energy are staggering - likely approaching those of Anakin or Dooku in a raw sense.

- Kar's damage-soak is ****ing ridiculous - during one point in his fight against Mace Windu, Mace double-fist punched him with "every erg of power he could summon" and Kar went flying end over end and landed on the back of his neck - which would ordinarily paralyze or kill a person.
Kar is so solid and tough, that he just stood up afterward and smiled. Showing his filed-down fangs/teeth.
After beating Mace in the fight, even despite Mace's Vapaad, he and Windu had a chance for a final fight at the end of the book.

- At the end of the book, Mace essentially admits that he wouldn't have a chance against Kar in a swordfight on his best day.
Mace during Shatterpoint was more or less on par with Count Dooku, who was himself a few notches below Yoda and Sidious.
It can be estimated that RotS Mace=Kar Vastor in dueling ability, since that was the peak he reached after accomplishing everything he needed to after Shatterpoint.
In other words, Mace, who was on par with Dooku, was outclassed by Kar, who was at least a few notches above.
So, mathematically, more or less you could say that Kar's swordsmanship was on par with Sidious, who Mace defeated in dueling.

Either way you mathematically cut it, Kar's dueling skills are incredible - and as with Sidious, only a fully mastered (RotS) Mace could have a chance of taking either of these two down.

Kar probably has even more feats than what I could remember, but I don't have the book with me at the moment. Even so, as you can see, Kar is more than a match for Shimrra, even if at least slightly.

Kar can handle Shimrra's strength, and is fast enough and savvy enough to avoid the Amphistaff.

The Lor Pelek has the one-dimensional mook, outclassed.



Edit: Seriously, seriously - they need to make Shatterpoint into a f*cking movie. confused

Yuuzhan Vong are void in the Force, so all those Force powers and anticipations don't play much role.

On top of that Shimra has got whole body covered by implants that give similar protection to Vonduun Crab armor, if not better.

Unless, this guy studied Yuuzhan Vong very well and fought plenty of them prior to fight, he pretty much sucks.

Yet, he could use Force lightning, which seems to be effective, although not sure.

Does he use only shields or lightsaber as well? Shields actually could be more effective, then single lightsaber against this kind of foe.

He only uses vibro shields.



And to add to the part about Mace, the dark side is stronger on Karuun Hal than most places, so Mace didn't want to use Vapaad to a greater extent than a dabble for fear of falling.
That and Vastor is inherently more powerful on Haruun Kal than most people, because he is so attuned to it from his time in the jungle. Any other planet and he is NOT on par with those high tier guys.

And I also back up the whole "void in the force" thing. Using the Force is natural to Vastor, so he ends up like Anakin when he was young, just knowing things. Against a void like a Vong, he will not be as effective due to his lack of precognition.
And he has never, EVER, fought a vong before. The amphistaff can "shapeshift" and pretty much be a new weapon. Its also sentient enough to attempt to bite foes of its own volition. That and the implants/crab armor (whatever he wore) will nullify Vastor's vibroshields AND physical strength. He would have to hit the joints, which was difficult for everybody when the Vong first showed up.
And PLEASE don't use Luke as an example for Shimrra (despite being the only one)
By that time, he was a complete Gary Stu and had been fighting the Vong for a long time. Nothing could have stopped him.

Originally posted by Pwned
He only uses vibro shields.



And to add to the part about Mace, the dark side is stronger on Karuun Hal than most places, so Mace didn't want to use Vapaad to a greater extent than a dabble for fear of falling.
That and Vastor is inherently more powerful on Haruun Kal than most people, because he is so attuned to it from his time in the jungle. Any other planet and he is NOT on par with those high tier guys.

And I also back up the whole "void in the force" thing. Using the Force is natural to Vastor, so he ends up like Anakin when he was young, just knowing things. Against a void like a Vong, he will not be as effective due to his lack of precognition.
And he has never, EVER, fought a vong before. The amphistaff can "shapeshift" and pretty much be a new weapon. Its also sentient enough to attempt to bite foes of its own volition. That and the implants/crab armor (whatever he wore) will nullify Vastor's vibroshields AND physical strength. He would have to hit the joints, which was difficult for everybody when the Vong first showed up.
And PLEASE don't use Luke as an example for Shimrra (despite being the only one)
By that time, he was a complete Gary Stu and had been fighting the Vong for a long time. Nothing could have stopped him.




Actually, I like the points you raised. Fair and balanced.

Unless I'm mistaken though, individual Vong don't act as Ysalamiri, with the Force bubble thing, but rather, they just can't be sensed in the Force, hit with some powers, etc.
Vastor's Control Force powers speed, strength and reflex should work just fine here.

With those powers, against Shimrra, it's only a matter of time before Kar beats the stuffing out of him - or, using superior martial arts ability, like he used against Mace, either submit him or knock him out.

I really love how you pointed out the issue with the Amphistaff, because you understand that Shimrra's weapon was essentially doing most of the work, and Shimrra's vaunted strength didn't come into play as often.

In regards to Shimrra's armor, apparently if I remember correctly, his head and neck were still exposed and not covered by armor?

That's pretty much all Vastor needs. And I can tell you read the Shatterpoint novel, so you know how agile and accurate Kar is with his strikes, despite being so big, heavy and strong.

In Kar's fight with Windu, Kar showed amazing prowess at calmly controlling a fight, with fueled momentum and fury.
Mace knew in a blade fight to the death, he couldn't beat him, even on his best day.


Basically, you are saying though, that lack of prep might get Kar killed, and I didn't even consider this.
I think though, if he can visually see the gaps in Shimrra's armor, after a few strikes on the crab-armor, he'll cleverly understand what the deal is and go for those gaps.


All in all, if Mace Windu says that he couldn't beat him in a sword fight, even at his very, very best - then blade to blade, Kar definitely has a good chance against Shimrra.

If comes down to an unarmed striking match, somehow. Then Shimrra is screwed - unlike Mace, he has been shown to be a completely one-dimensional opponant in hand to hand combat. Whereas Kar is good enough to defeat a top-tier Jedi Master, who is also a Master of Vapaad.

If it comes down to a ground fight, (I'm sorry to say this) like it did with Luke and Shimrra, then I have no doubts Vastor would be able to shear Shimrra's head off as well.

He might even be able to stop the Amphistaff temporarily with one or both of his Vibro-shields and take him out either by piercing his jugular (the Kar way ) or breaking his neck.


I mean, when you live on a planet full of big, strong Force-Sensitive black people and the rule of the day is kill or be killed, and you're top dog through power and skill - that says alot.

Yes, some Force powers worked on much lower scale. But the whole point is that Jedi anticipate attacks by trusting the Force, not because of their amazing reflexes.
Most Jedi couldn't handle even single Vong because of that, while they were themselves strong fighters.
Some Jedi like Luke learned to sense the void itself and anticipate attack by sensing the void instead of the Force


This is quite uncertain point. Even non-Force users proved to be able to fight back Jedi in combat or with sword. Of course those capabilities increase during fight but not to big extend, unless there are specific circumstances.

Are you MMA fan? If seriously, Yuuzhan Vong themselves are superior fighters with fast reflexes, strength beyond human, high agility, unbelievable stamina and no fear of pain. They were masters of combat. There was no such thing as beating Vong in unarmed combat even for a Jedi. Perhaps, Jedi Barabels were the only ones able to handle them. Even for Nogri - deadly in combat Yuuzhan Vong proved even deadlier.

Book didn't describe much fight with Shimmra. He joined at the last moment, when Slayers were down and almost immediately wrapped Luke with snake. Nevertheless, in Vong culture strongest rules, so by default Shimra was expert in any form of combat.

I remember that his whole body including head was covered by implants instead of armor, which is even better. Luke sliced his head with two lightsabers, so it is likely he did it same way as with snake. Can't remember.

This could be true for fight with average Yuuzhan vong. If he meets someone like Shedao Shai, who didn't even wear armor during fight with Corran Horn, Kar is screwed.

Such logic proved ineffective ins star wars. Windu is Windu. He could sense him through the Force and was more powerful.

If comes down to unarmed combat, then he is screwed even against average Yuzhan Vong warrior. He might be great martial artist but he is no Barabel. Their strength is far bigger, than human. Force user can't constantly concentrate to be stronger, it is very easy to loose concentration. Also, Vongs are never unarmed. One swing with palm and throat is split by nail implants. Not to mention multiple spikes protruding from armor.

Emm, there was no ground fight between Shimra and Luke.

In any case, I believe it is quite possible for him to defeat Shimra but for that purpose he would need to go through the whole war.

Originally posted by Arhael
Yes, some Force powers worked on much lower scale. But the whole point is that Jedi anticipate attacks by trusting the Force, not because of their amazing reflexes.
Most Jedi couldn't handle even single Vong because of that, while they were themselves strong fighters.
Some Jedi like Luke learned to sense the void itself and anticipate attack by sensing the void instead of the Force
This is quite uncertain point. Even non-Force users proved to be able to fight back Jedi in combat or with sword. Of course those capabilities increase during fight but not to big extend, unless there are specific circumstances.
Are you MMA fan? If seriously, Yuuzhan Vong themselves are superior fighters with fast reflexes, strength beyond human, high agility, unbelievable stamina and no fear of pain. They were masters of combat. There was no such thing as beating Vong in unarmed combat even for a Jedi. Perhaps, Jedi Barabels were the only ones able to handle them. Even for Nogri - deadly in combat Yuuzhan Vong proved even deadlier.
Book didn't describe much fight with Shimmra. He joined at the last moment, when Slayers were down and almost immediately wrapped Luke with snake. Nevertheless, in Vong culture strongest rules, so by default Shimra was expert in any form of combat.
I remember that his whole body including head was covered by implants instead of armor, which is even better. Luke sliced his head with two lightsabers, so it is likely he did it same way as with snake. Can't remember.
This could be true for fight with average Yuuzhan vong. If he meets someone like Shedao Shai, who didn't even wear armor during fight with Corran Horn, Kar is screwed.
Such logic proved ineffective ins star wars. Windu is Windu. He could sense him through the Force and was more powerful.
If comes down to unarmed combat, then he is screwed even against average Yuzhan Vong warrior. He might be great martial artist but he is no Barabel. Their strength is far bigger, than human. Force user can't constantly concentrate to be stronger, it is very easy to loose concentration. Also, Vongs are never unarmed. One swing with palm and throat is split by nail implants. Not to mention multiple spikes protruding from armor.
Emm, there was no ground fight between Shimra and Luke.
In any case, I believe it is quite possible for him to defeat Shimra but for that purpose he would need to go through the whole war.




When I was a teen I studied Lau Gar for 4 years, then moved and took Kenjutsu classes, and lately have been studying grappling with a friend well versed in MMA.



I've read a decent amount of the NJO books, including the first and last one, but I have never seen any indication at all that Shimrra - much less Shedao Shai or any other Vong for that matter possess the type of skill and prowess in martial arts that Kar Vastor does.

For one thing, advanced use of martial arts nullifies almost any and all types of brute strength - I should know.
Secondly, Kar without the Force is probably close to Wookiee strength, and with the Force, he's a f*cking monster.

Kar has Shimrra narrowly beat in terms of brute force, and if Shimrra fights Kar like he fought Luke, then he dies alot quicker than expected.

If Shimrra has nail impants, Kar can handle that, and he also has damage soak that would make most people wet their pants just watching.

Lastly, if Shimrra is covered by implants, rather than armor, then this is going to be a very quick fight for Kar.


And he'll get to snack on some tasty Vong flesh for dinner.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
When I was a teen I studied Lau Gar for 4 years, then moved and took Kenjutsu classes, and lately have been studying grappling with a friend well versed in MMA.

I've read a decent amount of the NJO books, including the first and last one, but I have never seen any indication at all that Shimrra - much less Shedao Shai or any other Vong for that matter possess the type of skill and prowess in martial arts that Kar Vastor does.

Secondly, Kar without the Force is probably close to Wookiee strength, and with the Force, he's a f*cking monster.

Kar has Shimrra narrowly beat in terms of brute force, and if Shimrra fights Kar like he fought Luke, then he dies alot quicker than expected.

If Shimrra has nail impants, Kar can handle that, and he also has damage soak that would make most people wet their pants just watching.

Lastly, if Shimrra is covered by implants, rather than armor, then this is going to be a very quick fight for Kar.


And he'll get to snack on some tasty Vong flesh for dinner.

He. So far I stick to Aikido. In future would like BJJ to get stamina and hips workout.

In the first book. Both Nogri died from single vong. That seems to be good indication.

From last book all I remember is that they fight, fight, fight and keep fightning with slayers. But then suddenly Shimmra approaches and Luke is already in snake grasp. I was like WTF?

Hmm, human with strength of Wookiee. That is fantastic! Actually don't remember any decent fights of wookiees with vongs. Those bastards prefered to land moon on Chubaka instead.

A bit of elaboration about damage soak, please.

Although, I, also look at starwars with logic from real life perspective, in this case it is not quite the same. While in real life too much strength reduces speed and stamina, in vong case they are very slim and tall, have a lot of stamina and speed, yet, their strength is like their are on worth steroids.

Originally posted by Arhael
He. So far I stick to Aikido. In future would like BJJ to get stamina and hips workout.

In the first book. Both Nogri died from single vong. That seems to be good indication.






The assassin that hid among refugees and tried to kill Leia, right?

I remember one of the Noghri jumping in the way of a knife, or something to that extent.

Don't remember another dying, though.

A good Vong warrior can probably kill a Noghri in a sneak-attack. Don't know about a straight fight.








Originally posted by Arhael

From last book all I remember is that they fight, fight, fight and keep fightning with slayers. But then suddenly Shimmra approaches and Luke is already in snake grasp. I was like WTF?






Yeah, James Luceno is a good writer, but they gave him shit to work with.







Originally posted by Arhael

Hmm, human with strength of Wookiee. That is fantastic! Actually don't remember any decent fights of wookiees with vongs. Those bastards prefered to land moon on Chubaka instead.



The glory of the NJO series.




Originally posted by Arhael

A bit of elaboration about damage soak, please.






The two most damaging blows I remember Kar tanking (and it's been a while since I read the book so there could be other impressive ones) are when Mace double-fist punched him with "every erg of power he could summon" and Kar went flying end over end and landed on the back of his neck - which would ordinarily paralyze or kill a person.
Kar just got up and smiled.

Then even earlier, literally when Mace and Kar first met each other, they were fighting and when Kar went to attack a civillian Harvester vehicle and jumped inside, Mace went to sneak-attack him and stood over the spot on the roof where Kar was below.
He then moved in a circle, cutting a hole in the roof with his lightsaber, until the circular durasteel plate, which looked to weigh at least a hundred pounds, came down on top of Kar's head, along with Mace above it.

Kar laid still for a moment, and then sprung up to his feet, sending the plate flying, and stood there, ready to fight.

Basically, he tanked another blow that would kill or send an ordinary person into a coma.







Originally posted by Arhael

Although, I, also look at starwars with logic from real life perspective, in this case it is not quite the same. While in real life too much strength reduces speed and stamina, in vong case they are very slim and tall, have a lot of stamina and speed, yet, their strength is like their are on worth steroids.




Yeah, I know.

But Kar, like any well-trained martial artist, is big and heavy, yet flexible and supple, so he can move as quick, or quicker than any Vong.

He outmoved Mace, who was using Vapaad ("invisible" speed against him.


You should read Shatterpoint; it's a good book.

Ye, I, also, can hardly remember anything. Lea had two bodyguards. Can't remember how first died. Yet, second Nogri attacked Vong by surprised and killed him with his knife. Yet, even being caught off guard the Vong was fast enough to slash Nogri's throat with his nails. Nogri died on Lea's hands and she was astonish of how dangerous they are that they can kill even Nogri.

Well, for me the way book was written together with its story line is among my favorites. And thinking logically Luke was already too tired after slayers, that is why Shimra managed to catch him.



Honestly, with weapons strength doesn't play very big part as lethal weapon is lethal in any case.
But for me putting human, no matter how strong and skilled he is, against Yuuzhan Vong is the same as in real life putting human vs grizzly bear. Would MMA fighter be able to apply arm bar to a bear? xD

For me Vaapad is not something giving significant advantage but suitable state of mind that allowed Windu with his dark personality fight at limits of his potential and talent.

As for reading Shatterpoint, it will take me at least 2-3 years to reach it. Currently I am half though Apocalypse, then will continue from Red Harvest and up through all books before Shatterpoint. Don't like jumping from era to era.

Originally posted by Arhael
Ye, I, also, can hardly remember anything. Lea had two bodyguards. Can't remember how first died. Yet, second Nogri attacked Vong by surprised and killed him with his knife. Yet, even being caught off guard the Vong was fast enough to slash Nogri's throat with his nails. Nogri died on Lea's hands and she was astonish of how dangerous they are that they can kill even Nogri.







Yeah - Leia was walking among a refugee camp with her Noghri bodyguards, and when a Vong assassin disguised as a refugeee suddenly attacked with a knife, one of the Noghri jumped in the way and tanked the strike for Leia, dying.

The second one got into a grapple a grapple with the Vong assassin, and they killed each other.

Hardly impressive. Killing one Noghri due to a sneak-attack and the other only because they were clinching?

If the Noghri had been moving around, I doubt it would have died at all.







Originally posted by Arhael

Well, for me the way book was written together with its story line is among my favorites. And thinking logically Luke was already too tired after slayers, that is why Shimra managed to catch him.



Yep.







Originally posted by Arhael

Honestly, with weapons strength doesn't play very big part as lethal weapon is lethal in any case.
But for me putting human, no matter how strong and skilled he is, against Yuuzhan Vong is the same as in real life putting human vs grizzly bear. Would MMA fighter be able to apply arm bar to a bear? xD





Kar could break a Vong over his knee.








Originally posted by Arhael

For me Vaapad is not something giving significant advantage but suitable state of mind that allowed Windu with his dark personality fight at limits of his potential and talent.






Vapaad allows:

1. A Force-user to take the Darkness inside him and turn it into a useful weapon, providing energy and combative-focus.

2. Allowing the Dark side energy wafting off the opponant to be collected and absorbed to give the Vapaad user yet more energy, and the ability to maintain with the opponant.

3. Brings about an incredible type of Force speed that seemingly renders the user's strikes invisible.

And much more.

You need to read Shatterpoint.









Originally posted by Arhael

As for reading Shatterpoint, it will take me at least 2-3 years to reach it. Currently I am half though Apocalypse, then will continue from Red Harvest and up through all books before Shatterpoint. Don't like jumping from era to era.





Shatterpoint is the best Star Wars novel ever written.

Real fights are rarely impressive and often are very short.


MMA fighter would break bear's palm with triangle arm bar.

All this things are achievable through the Force without Vaapad.
It wasn't Vaapad that allowed Windu to perform all those feats, it was his potential and talent.

By the way. When Windu was blocking Palpatine's Force lightning, it didn't seem to give him a lot of energy.

I'll definitely read Shatterpoint but in time.

You guys, I tried really hard to muster the nerdrage for this thread. I opened up Notepad and everything. I just don't have it in me anymore.

Here's how it is:
Kar is, at his peak on Haruund Kal, an avatar of the Force. Shimrra is basically the opposite; he is opaque to Force senses and unaffected by both metaphysical attacks (see: invisibility) and more mundane options (see: lightning arcing around slayers in Traitor).

So the only important factor will be physical attributes.Admittedly, Kar is quite large. He demonstrates damage soak on par with Caedus, which is saying something.However, he's vulnerable along every plane other than the vibroshields on his arms. Nicks, cuts, venom, and blood loss are still threats.Against a foe he cannot sense (or predict, or engage with in a familiar way) such openings will be many.Shimrra is armored, and arguably just as strong as Vastor.Shimrra's weapon is explicitly noted for its ability to bypass traditional forms of defense (prompting Luke to adopt the shoto).

Shimrra has none of Kar's disadvantages and can fight him evenly on all remaining arenas.



I'm not really sure why you're talking about Mace Windu?
(why does close all tags not work? i always thought it used to))
((Do you guys remember when people would argue about whether one form could beat another? like, Whie used form 4 so there's no way he could beat Ventress!
okay, shitty example but you get the idea
It occurs to me, though, than I dont care even a little bit (typing with my eyes closed here) about the SW universe anymore; it isn't interesting in the least, on its own merits. i mean, sure, wars are generally compelling stages for narratives to play out. but when the only way to make something interesting to audiences is by following one galactic conflict after another, compassion fatigue sets in on fictional poppeople. I mean, ME had the galaxy-wide conflict as a kind of backdrop, while the most interesting missions ("main story" were the ones which explored the allied races: Asarai (I think that's Asari but i haven't actually used the backspace key yet so let's just roll with it) / quarian%geth / Turian% Krogan relationships are all giant political things, but a little bit less than galaxy wide existential crises, and the most painful moments Mordin are those that come down to just one person. So I think that's why I am not a fan of star wars but I am a way (fan of Mass Effect. Can you name any significant emotional blows from Star Wars? At all? Scout was an interesting semi-protagonist, but I can't remember how she played into the conclusion/climax. Watching Qui Gon die was kind of ... um, long? we only had a movie to get to know him and then he was gone. And Dooku was painted as one-dimensional (on film) and short sighted (or naive, which is far more damning) on paper. So his death isn't too gripping. Palpatine, Gideon claimed, was a more nefarious villain than any other, but I'm unconvinced. Maybe more devious, but certainly not more emotionally gripping. He sits, or manipulateds. But never the protagonist (save Luke). He manipulated(s_ NPCs into making the conflict something other than what you expected. I feel like Galen
(I didn't read much of the
idgaf

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I think most of us have come to this point. Yeah.. I'm pretty sure the only people who really feel different are Gideon and to a lesser extent Beefy.

I stopped giving a shit about Star Wars.a couple years ago, truth be told.

TOR killed Star Wars for me. KotOR was, IMO, the only really interesting thing in the EU and TOR stomped all over it.

Oh yeah. I still pretend TOR doesn't exist.

TOR made Revan an even bigger Gary Stu. Why... <.<

I'm rubbing my thumbs against my index and middle finger. For the casual fanboys of course.



I don't care so much what they did to Revan, but rather what they decided the entire story would be about. Every aspect of TOR is derived from either the films, or KotOR. Lifts and allusions abound in TOR like no other piece of EU. The story is generic and boring, the main characters are lifeless and Gary Stus, and from what I've heard of the dialogue... ugh. It surpasses TFU II in insipidness.

Originally posted by ares834
TOR killed Star Wars for me. KotOR was, IMO, the only really interesting thing in the EU and TOR stomped all over it.

This is unfortunately true. TOR was amazing when the hype was there, but once I beat the SI storyline, it was kinda meh at that point. The problem with the MMO storyline focus is that it's a KotOR style story stretched out over 50-60+ hours of killing hundreds of mobs. While the combat is and was great in the game, it was too much padding. The storyline wasn't truly deep or impressive enough to really remember much of it. And there's almost no incentive to play as every class, because it requires so much going over the same levels again. It'd be like replaying KotOR I and II, but with ten times the baddies, with eight classes total. No one would joyfully do that.

Like Vene said, SW is the fast food of sci-fi these days, and Mass Effect is the five star hotel.

If Vene doesn;t like Star Wars then he can gtfo out of here, and so can you. Star Wars is awesome what else has over 1000 books written by over 7 authors and all of them selling over 1000 units? Closest is Harry Potter but that didn't even have ten books and the short stories are shit.

...

Dude's mad, bro.

Originally posted by Battlemaster

- At the end of the book, Mace essentially admits that he wouldn't have a chance against Kar in a swordfight on his best day.


I'm fairly certain that Mace Windu in no way specifies that he couldn't beat Kar Vastor in a "swordfight."

He said he couldn't beat the abnormally amped up Kar Vastor. And then he proceeds to beat him anyway....

Everyone who wants to quote that Mace "couldn't beat Vastor on his best day" always ignores the fact that 2 sentences after saying that, Mace defeated vastor in a split second.

Originally posted by Padawan Obi-Wan
If Vene doesn;t like Star Wars then he can gtfo out of here, and so can you. Star Wars is awesome what else has over 1000 books written by over 7 authors and all of them selling over 1000 units? Closest is Harry Potter but that didn't even have ten books and the short stories are shit.

1000 books by over 7 authors selling over a 1000 units?

So does each author sell 1000 apiece, or do they collaborate?

Also, say hello to Corin Tellado. She sells more books than SW and by herself. According to your assertion of awesomeness, Tellado's Spanish romance novels are better than Harry Potter riding a Millenium Falcon into the Twilight Zone.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
This is unfortunately true. TOR was amazing when the hype was there, but once I beat the SI storyline, it was kinda meh at that point. The problem with the MMO storyline focus is that it's a KotOR style story stretched out over 50-60+ hours of killing hundreds of mobs. While the combat is and was great in the game, it was too much padding. The storyline wasn't truly deep or impressive enough to really remember much of it. And there's almost no incentive to play as every class, because it requires so much going over the same levels again. It'd be like replaying KotOR I and II, but with ten times the baddies, with eight classes total. No one would joyfully do that.

Like Vene said, SW is the fast food of sci-fi these days, and Mass Effect is the five star hotel. http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f122/blaxican_templar/tiger-woods-fist-pump-o.gif

I claim this flawless victory in the name of the great ToR/GW2 war.

GW2 has a story?

Oh wait, no it has interesting combat mechanics and better graphics.

NO VICTORY FOR YOU.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Oh wait, no it has interesting combat mechanics and better graphics.
And that's why you'll still be playing it six months later. http://www.starless.dk/forum/images/smilies/troll.gif

Actually, I did just reload TOR and updated it. The patch was huge. They changed/fixed a LOT.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
I'm fairly certain that Mace Windu in no way specifies that he couldn't beat Kar Vastor in a "swordfight."





You got me! But I was speaking loosely, so forgive me.

I meant, he wouldn't be able to beat Kar blade-to-blade, so to speak.


At the time, he knew he couldn't win, because he had spent days and weeks trekking through a jungle, and was probably malnourished to an extent. Also, Depa had run him through with a Lightsaber, so that was hurting him. And he had just watched her have a nervous breakdown and try to commit suicide.

He was too tired and demoralized to stand any chance of physically taking Vastor down in any kind of duel.


Even if his physical injuries hadn't been the case, he had still lost to Vastor in unarmed Melee combat previously, and before that he had experienced Kar more or less stalemating him in blade combat.

It's been a while since I read the book, but I would guess that Mace just knew Vastor had him beat in the physical department.






Originally posted by truejedi
He said he couldn't beat the abnormally amped up Kar Vastor. And then he proceeds to beat him anyway....

Everyone who wants to quote that Mace "couldn't beat Vastor on his best day" always ignores the fact that 2 sentences after saying that, Mace defeated vastor in a split second.





Right, but only with the aid of a Force illusion.

Mace was referring to him not being able to beat Vastor in a physical fight on his best day - which is why he opted for the mental option, instead.

What "illusion."

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
What "illusion."



Have you read the book yet? I don't want to give away a spoiler.. (This is at the end of the book, after all)

it wasn't an illusion, iirc. He simply pulled a shield into him.

Originally posted by truejedi
it wasn't an illusion, iirc. He simply pulled a shield into him.



Nope, he had to throw his defense off first, so an illusion was used, as well.

Check the book if you have it handy.

Yes BM, I read the book. You'll have to provide the passage though. I don't recall anything about an illusion. I believe you're mistaken.

Yes, some badly written sentences made me think he used an illusion with the TK, so alas, it was just poorly constructed and misleading.

Even so, Mace could not physically contend with Kar, as was proven.

And also, Kar rapes Shimrra here.