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Team Lucifer must stop some of Marvel's bad cosmics from taking over.
Lucifer
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/9116/710629-luciferrachel_large.jpg
Michael
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/9116/691654-lucifer44_large.png
Gabriel
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/26506/507150-hellblazer_064_04_large.jpg

vs

Abraxas
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/35698/1670020-abraxas1_large.jpg
Chaos King
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/57606/1518439-chaos_king_large.jpg
Zom
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/57606/1616020-more006_large.jpg

Team 1

Angels

Team 2. Chaos King or Abraxas solo.

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
Team 1

Isn't Gabriel on Lucifers level? I heard they battled.

Team 1. WTF at Chaos King or Abraxas soloing.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Team 1. WTF at Chaos King or Abraxas soloing.

What do you mean, WTF? Who have Lucifer, Micheal, or Gabriel fought against? Chaos King by himself devoured 98% of the multiverse before he was BFRed into another universe where he finally got his wish.

Abraxas was likewise causing multiversal wide destruction and was only stopped by the UN wielded by Reed Richards (he was so effective with it that he destroyed and recreated the multiverse).

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Isn't Gabriel on Lucifers level? I heard they battled.

Going by narration and such it seems that Gabriel is just slightly less powerful than Lucifer/Michael, but is still greater than everyone else in the universe...

In a flashback in one of the last Lucifer issues we see Gabriel and Lucifer fighting in a big battle, but that's the only time we really see Gabriel fight...

In Hellblazer it was stated that Gabriel would stomp the First of the Fallen in a battle, with John saying "He was never in your league, so I reckon you'll breeze it"

The characters from the Vertigo series aren't meant for typical "battlezone" feats. But given their accomplishments and displays of power and where they stand in the universe, I don't see how Chaos King or Abraxas are soloing anything.

Michael effortlessly dismissed the Spectre twice and his power is described as second only to God. If for some reason Michael does bite the dust here, he undoes all of Creation with him.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
The characters from the Vertigo series aren't meant for typical "battlezone" feats. But given their accomplishments and displays of power and where they stand in the universe, I don't see how Chaos King or Abraxas are soloing anything.

Michael effortlessly dismissed the Spectre twice and his power is described as second only to God. If for some reason Michael does bite the dust here, he undoes all of Creation with him.

So basically they have zero fighting feats? What are their accomplishments then? Or displays of power?

Regarding Michael and the Spectre : How many people have owned the Spectre? I've lost count.

Originally posted by zopzop
So basically they have zero fighting feats? What are their accomplishments then? Or displays of power?

Regarding Michael and the Spectre : How many people have owned the Spectre? I've lost count.

Being second only to God, having the ability to undo Creation, creating multiverses, etc.

If you want to lowball Spectre, go for it.

Yeah, this was the most powerful of the Spectre's, IIRC. and Michael easily dismissed him.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Being second only to God, having the ability to undo Creation, creating multiverses, etc.

If you want to lowball Spectre, go for it.

Yeah but that means nothing. Chaos King all by himself DEVOURED 98% of the multiverse with NO SIGNS of slowing down. They only "beat" him by giving him what he wanted.

Michael had to die to create a multiverse and Lucifer DOES NOT have the power to create one on his own (hence why he needed his brother's power by sacrificing his life).

CK owns them. I'm betting Abraxas could too.

Originally posted by zopzop
Yeah but that means nothing. Chaos King all by himself DEVOURED 98% of the multiverse with NO SIGNS of slowing down. They only "beat" him by giving him what he wanted.

Michael had to die to create a multiverse and Lucifer DOES NOT have the power to create one on his own (hence why he needed his brother's power by sacrificing his life).

CK owns them. I'm betting Abraxas could too.

How does being the mightiest being in all of creation second only to its creator mean nothing?

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
How does being the mightiest being in all of creation second only to its creator mean nothing?

Because DC's "God" is failsauce, that's why. Barring that, Michael's best "feats" were dismissing Spectre ( ) and dying in order to create a multiverse. Lucifer's best "feat" is surviving that multiversal blast (which wasn't intended to destroy anything at all but in fact CREATE, so it's debatable as to how impressive standing there was).

CK wtfpwned entire pantheons (including their Skyfathers) and hell realms (including their Hell Lords in their place of power) throughout the universe/multiverse , was beyond Super God Herc (who RESTORED 98% of the multiverse that CK devoured) and his team, devoured/absorbed 98% of the universe/multiverse and was only "beaten" by being given what he wanted.

He absolutely crushes Team 1. Abraxas is more debatable but I think he can do it to.

Originally posted by zopzop
Yeah but that means nothing. Chaos King all by himself DEVOURED 98% of the multiverse with NO SIGNS of slowing down. They only "beat" him by giving him what he wanted.

Michael had to die to create a multiverse and Lucifer DOES NOT have the power to create one on his own (hence why he needed his brother's power by sacrificing his life).

CK owns them. I'm betting Abraxas could too.

No, Michael was dying anyway, but his own power would leak out if he died and destroy everything.

He can use this power whilst alive as welle- as seen when he drove a huge part of Lucifer's army out of heaven in a flashback, and when he was renewing creation instant by instant after the Presence left...

And just because Lucifer can't "create" doesn't mean he doesn't have power. Inside an existing creation Lucifer can do anything, and hell, even in the Void he still retains his power. It's just that to make a kind of "reality" in the Vertigoverse, you need the Dermiugic power.

And to show an example of destructive power, Lucifer caused the Mansions of Silence to collapse simply by walking into that dimension...

Originally posted by zopzop
Because DC's "God" is failsauce, that's why. Barring that, Michael's best "feats" were dismissing Spectre ( ) and dying in order to create a multiverse. Lucifer's best "feat" is surviving that multiversal blast (which wasn't intended to destroy anything at all but in fact CREATE, so it's debatable as to how impressive standing there was).

CK wtfpwned entire pantheons (including their Skyfathers) and hell realms (including their Hell Lords in their place of power) throughout the universe/multiverse , was beyond Super God Herc (who RESTORED 98% of the multiverse that CK devoured) and his team, devoured/absorbed 98% of the universe/multiverse and was only "beaten" by being given what he wanted.

He absolutely crushes Team 1. Abraxas is more debatable but I think he can do it to.

The Spectre Michael owned >> Marvel skyfathers

To show the difference between the angels and everyone else:
Dream made it abundantly clear that he would have defeated the assembly of gods (along with Chaos/Order lords, demons and others) and that included Skyfathers, and it's been said that Lucifer is FAR more powerful than Dream...

edit

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
No, Michael was dying anyway, but his own power would leak out if he died and destroy everything.

He can use this power whilst alive as welle- as seen when he drove a huge part of Lucifer's army out of heaven in a flashback, and when he was renewing creation instant by instant after the Presence left...

And just because Lucifer can't "create" doesn't mean he doesn't have power. Inside an existing creation Lucifer can do anything, and hell, even in the Void he still retains his power. It's just that to make a kind of "reality" in the Vertigoverse, you need the Dermiugic power.

Team Angel's best involves releasing energies from a dying being to create a multiverse and Lucifer being in the middle of all that creative power while it's doing it's thing.

Again, CK owned entire pantheons and hell realms and devoured 98% of the multiverse. So he has both fights and feats to his credit. He was never beaten by being overpowered (though the "good guys" had a Super God capable of restoring 98% of the multiverse on their team) only by being given what he wanted.

CK destroys them.



Meaningless since Abraxas was causing the ENTIRE MULTIVERSE to collapse just by "walking" between various universes in it. Yet no on on this board gave Abraxas any respect for that. I don't see why Lucifer gets credit while Abraxas doesn't.

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
The Spectre Michael owned >> Marvel skyfathers

To show the difference between the angels and everyone else:
Dream made it abundantly clear that he would have defeated the assembly of gods (along with Chaos/Order lords, demons and others) and that included Skyfathers, and it's been said that Lucifer is FAR more powerful than Dream...

It's been said isn't good enough. Did they ever go at it on panel?

And unless I'm mistaken Marvel's skyfathers > DC versions. Odin and Seth by themselves rocked the multiverse, caused long dead galaxies to shatter and ignited dying stars throughout the universe. That's just TWO skyfather level beings fighting.

CK went through entire PANTHEONS like he was eating candy.

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
Team 1

hey eternal friend

Team 2

Team 1 uhuh

Team 1 Wins. We have not even mentioned the fact that Lucifer is by far the smartest figure on the battlefield and could probably trick Team 2 in to fighting each other if he wants.

Team DC Angels for the win.

It would take them almost no effort at all to repeat the tactic how CK was defeated. They could also erase Abraxas even easier than UN did. And Zom is just a no-factor.

chaos king is a piece of garbage

lmao @ Zom being included in this list.

The Beyonder ftw

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish Going by narration and such it seems that Gabriel is just slightly less powerful than Lucifer/Michael, but is still greater than everyone else in the universe... In a flashback in one of the last Lucifer issues we see Gabriel and Lucifer fighting in a big battle, but that's the only time we really see Gabriel fight... In Hellblazer it was stated that Gabriel would stomp the First of the Fallen in a battle, with John saying "He was never in your league, so I reckon you'll breeze it"

bad ass. gabriel seems pretty uber in the dc cosmic hierarchy.

Lol...Gabriel kills them. Pure beast.

Originally posted by zopzop
It's been said isn't good enough. Did they ever go at it on panel?

And unless I'm mistaken Marvel's skyfathers > DC versions. Odin and Seth by themselves rocked the multiverse, caused long dead galaxies to shatter and ignited dying stars throughout the universe. That's just TWO skyfather level beings fighting.

CK went through entire PANTHEONS like he was eating candy.
The spectre that michael owned beats all of marvel's skyfathers combined, easily.

Originally posted by abhilegend
The spectre that michael owned beats all of marvel's skyfathers combined, easily.

If you say so.

Originally posted by zopzop
If you say so.
Damn right.sneer

Originally posted by abhilegend
Damn right.sneer

http://thoughtsontherun.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/TalkToHand.jpg

Team 1 stomps so hard its not even funny

Originally posted by psycho gundam
chaos king is a piece of garbage

Originally posted by zopzop
http://thoughtsontherun.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/TalkToHand.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/My%20photos/Lulz/BestGif.gif

i think team 2 has a chance, and it isn't necessarily one sided. angels aren't necessarily beyond abstract concepts, otherwise there wouldn't have been a war in heaven but that's just my opinion. but if i lead off of that, yeah i'd have to consider DC side's feats but also factor in my argument. abraxas represents the absence of balance, and if there is no balance then the rules can tip in marvels favor.

Didn't Chaos King scared away Death, who is an elite level abstract? I guess what i'm asking is, would Death > Michael?

*im such a newb lol*

Originally posted by dynamix
Didn't Chaos King scared away Death, who is an elite level abstract? I guess what i'm asking is, would Death > Michael?

*im such a newb lol*

Lucifer did the same, telling her "you have no hold over me", and then threatened her...

Originally posted by JakeTheBank

Michael effortlessly dismissed the Spectre twice and his power is described as second only to God.

/Thread

Originally posted by guy222
hey eternal friend

Hey mate

How are you

Originally posted by abhilegend
The spectre that michael owned beats all of marvel's skyfathers combined, easily.

Originally posted by Tony Stark

You have any problem with that?

Originally posted by abhilegend
You have any problem with that?


Ahhhh... yeah... So would most that have any true comic knowledge

Nice reasoning, brah.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Nice reasoning, brah.


So your're saying think you that Spectre would beat all of the Marvel skyfathers at the same time...? Oh... and don't forget the easily part.

Originally posted by Tony Stark
Ahhhh... yeah... So would most that have any true comic knowledge
Which limits to just reading marvel comics, I presume. How many spectre comics have you read?Originally posted by Tony Stark
So your're saying think you that Spectre would beat all of the Marvel skyfathers at the same time...? Oh... and don't forget the easily part.
Yeah, he would. Easily.

If it's a high enough Spectre or amped Spectre like the one in COIE or GEB arc, perhaps.

Tony has probably never heard of the Spectre. He's always in the MU.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
If it's a high enough Spectre or amped Spectre like the one in COIE or GEB arc, perhaps.
When some skyfather after getting badly beaten by some nigh omnipotent being, channel enough energy to start a new multiverse, call me.

Originally posted by abhilegend
When some skyfather after getting badly beaten by some nigh omnipotent being, channel enough energy to start a new multiverse, call me.

Alright, hold on, let me get a pen.


What is ya number?

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Alright, hold on, let me get a pen.


What is ya number?
Except the piece of sh!t called chaos war. I should've mentioned that earlier.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
If it's a high enough Spectre or amped Spectre like the one in COIE or GEB arc, perhaps.

I've read at least 40+ comics with Spectre specifically involved... I do read both DC and Marvel and get them both in my weekly pulls.

Just because you may be a DC bigot... Doesn't mean that I'm a Marvel one.

And there is no mention of any of these character being amped by anything so lets not go outside of the thread to look for an advantage.

Michael isn't the first character to beat on Spectre ftr.

Originally posted by Tony Stark
I've read at least 40+ comics with Spectre specifically involved... I do read both DC and Marvel and get them both in my weekly pulls.

Just because you may be a DC bigot... Doesn't mean that I'm a Marvel one.

And there is no mention of any of these character being amped by anything so lets not go outside of the thread to look for an advantage.

Michael isn't the first character to beat on Spectre ftr.
So getting beat by someone second only to god is a low showing now? Reading scans isn't reading comics.

No one on team 2 is soloing team 1. That's just a ridiculous statement.

Originally posted by abhilegend
So getting beat by someone second only to god is a low showing now? Reading scans isn't reading comics.

It wouldn't be but DC "God" is a joke. So being second only to a joke still makes you a joke.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Except the piece of sh!t called chaos war. I should've mentioned that earlier.

Oh, Chaos War was an absolute piece of sh|t, throwing away 30+ years of continuity just to hype a throw away character that no one cares about.

But until it's retconned it's still valid. Chaos King sh|tstomps Team 1 based on his feats and fights in CW. They didn't beat him by overpowering him (despite have a person on team that had the power to restore 98+% of the multiverse), they "beat" him by giving him what he wanted.

Originally posted by zopzop
It wouldn't be but DC "God" is a joke. So being second only to a joke still makes you a joke.
Yeah, yeah my god beats your god. Old before we were born. Try something new.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, yeah my god beats your god. Old before we were born. Try something new.

The power and position of Marvel's TOAA has NEVER been challenged, DC's on the other hand.............try again.

Originally posted by zopzop
The power and position of Marvel's TOAA has NEVER been challenged, DC's on the other hand.............try again.
Classic beyonder. Try again.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Classic beyonder. Try again.

Wrong. Was TOAA even a character up to and during that event?

Originally posted by zopzop
It wouldn't be but DC "God" is a joke. So being second only to a joke still makes you a joke.

This

Originally posted by abhilegend
So getting beat by someone second only to god is a low showing now? Reading scans isn't reading comics.


I guess these were all low showings too...?

Anti-Monitor, Great Evil Beast, King of Tears, Emperor Joker, Mxy and Bat-Mite, The Presence, The two 5d imps, Nekron, Mandrakk, Vandal Savage as Cain, Black Alice, Eclipso, The Source, Shazam...

To add to the list

Originally posted by zopzop
Wrong. Was TOAA even a character up to and during that event?
Creating a universe infinitely bigger than marvel multiverse and making LT pee himself begging not to kill death and begging MM to stop beyonder. Yup, he threatened TOAA himself considering he was presented as the writer himseld or should I say Jim shooter?

Originally posted by Tony Stark
I guess these were all low showings too...?

Anti-Monitor, Great Evil Beast, King of Tears, Emperor Joker, Mxy and Bat-Mite, The Presence, The two 5d imps, Nekron, Mandrakk, Vandal Savage as Cain, Black Alice, Eclipso, The Source, Shazam...

To add to the list
Nice omission of context for all of these. You proved how many spectre comics you've read.

I guess you could show me your knowledge of Spectre comics read and add to my list then.

Originally posted by Tony Stark
I guess you could show me your knowledge of Spectre comics read and add to my list then.
Where to start?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Creating a universe infinitely bigger than marvel multiverse and making LT pee himself begging not to kill death and begging MM to stop beyonder. Yup, he threatened TOAA himself considering he was presented as the writer himseld or should I say Jim shooter?

Was TOAA even a character during that time?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Where to start?

Start with the GEB, this alone proves that DC's "God" is weaksauce.

Originally posted by zopzop
Was TOAA even a character during that time?
Beyonder was effectively TOAA at the time. That proves TOAA is "weaksauce".
Originally posted by zopzop
Start with the GEB, this alone proves that DC's "God" is weaksauce.
GEB was the dark to presence's light. They are one and the same, just given different forms.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Beyonder was effectively TOAA at the time. That proves TOAA is "weaksauce".

False. TOAA wasn't even a character at the time (unless I'm missing something). So using that against him/her/it is pointless. Also those events were retconned. So you have no leg to stand on there.



I'm pretty sure you are leaving something out of that explanation. I'll need to check the GEB thread we had here a few months back.

Originally posted by zopzop
Start with the GEB, this alone proves that DC's "God" is weaksauce.

Lolwhut, the infinity of nonexistance given form and thus the exact opposite of the Presence proves the Presence is weaksauce how?

Originally posted by zopzop


False. TOAA wasn't even a character at the time (unless I'm missing something). So using that against him/her/it is pointless. Also those events were retconned. So you have no leg to stand on there.



I'm pretty sure you are leaving something out of that explanation. I'll need to check the GEB thread we had here a few months back.
So marvel didn't have a god back then? So whose representetive was LT then? That wasn't the point, you said TOAA was never challanged. That is clearly false.

Originally posted by Tony Stark
I've read at least 40+ comics with Spectre specifically involved... I do read both DC and Marvel and get them both in my weekly pulls.

Just because you may be a DC bigot... Doesn't mean that I'm a Marvel one.

And there is no mention of any of these character being amped by anything so lets not go outside of the thread to look for an advantage.

Michael isn't the first character to beat on Spectre ftr.

Yeah, you pretty much are. Seeing some of your posts as examples.

Originally posted by abhilegend
So marvel didn't have a god back then? So whose representetive was LT then? That wasn't the point, you said TOAA was never challanged. That is clearly false.

But if the character wasn't introduced yet, how can it be challenged? To make matters worst for you the Secret Wars events were retconned. So there was NO challenge to TOAA's power or authority.

Now compare this to DC's "God". Supposedly Swamp Thing with the Elemental Congress' almost overthrew DC's "God". What a damn joke.

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
Lolwhut, the infinity of nonexistance given form and thus the exact opposite of the Presence proves the Presence is weaksauce how?

Because it proves he/she/it IS NOT the Supreme Being like Marvel's TOAA is. There is NO opposite or equal to Marvel's TOAA.

Originally posted by zopzop
But if the character wasn't introduced yet, how can it be challenged? To make matters worst for you the Secret Wars events were retconned. So there was NO challenge to TOAA's power or authority.

Now compare this to DC's "God". Supposedly Swamp Thing with the Elemental Congress' almost overthrew DC's "God". What a damn joke.

Marvel's god would barely be trans in the DCU. You know it.

Originally posted by zopzop
But if the character wasn't introduced yet, how can it be challenged? To make matters worst for you the Secret Wars events were retconned. So there was NO challenge to TOAA's power or authority.

Now compare this to DC's "God". Supposedly Swamp Thing with the Elemental Congress' almost overthrew DC's "God". What a damn joke.

Seriously, wasn't that Vertigo?? DCU's God has it's own supreme being and not linked to the Vertigo one.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Marvel's god would barely be trans in the DCU. You know it.

Marvel's TOAA is supreme in Marvel's Omniverse. The same can't be said for DC's "God". The GEB is just one example. Swamp Thing with the Elemental Congress' was another. I could go on, but hopefully you get my point.

Originally posted by zopzop
Marvel's TOAA is supreme in Marvel's Omniverse. The same can't be said for DC's "God". The GEB is just one example. Swamp Thing with the Elemental Congress' was another. I could go on, but hopefully you get my point.

Again all Vertio stories.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Seriously, wasn't that Vertigo?? DCU's God has it's own supreme being and not linked to the Vertigo one.

That's not what I heard on these boards.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Again all Vertio stories.

Primal Monitor, True Mandraak, WF Mxy. Those are DCU no?

Originally posted by zopzop
That's not what I heard on these boards.

Things like Swamp Thing and Lucifer aren't connected to the MAIN DCU.

Originally posted by zopzop
Primal Monitor, True Mandraak, WF Mxy. Those are DCU no?

No shit. Those stories were taken place in the MAIN DCU!!!!

Originally posted by zopzop
But if the character wasn't introduced yet, how can it be challenged? To make matters worst for you the Secret Wars events were retconned. So there was NO challenge to TOAA's power or authority.

Now compare this to DC's "God". Supposedly Swamp Thing with the Elemental Congress' almost overthrew DC's "God". What a damn joke. Originally posted by abhilegend
So marvel didn't have a god back then? So whose representetive was LT then? That wasn't the point, you said TOAA was never challanged. That is clearly false.
I haven't read the saga of swamp thing yet so no comment.
Originally posted by zopzop
Because it proves he/she/it IS NOT the Supreme Being like Marvel's TOAA is. There is NO opposite or equal to Marvel's TOAA.
GEB is just another form of presence. They are one and same.

Should we use Preachers GOD TOO!??

Originally posted by Prep-Man
No shit. Those stories were taken place in the MAIN DCU!!!!

Hence DCU's "God" is weaksauce.

GTFO! You make no sense.

Originally posted by abhilegend
I haven't read the saga of swamp thing yet so no comment.

Galan has the info in his Swamp Thing respect thread on these forums.



No, they are each others polar opposite. GEB challenged "God" and the fight ended in "perhaps a stalemate" :
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/Lucifer18.jpg

Marvel's TOAA has NO opposite or equal and no challengers to his power.

Stop using Vertigo's God as the main DCU God. Most of those stories aren't in the main continuity.

Originally posted by zopzop
Primal Monitor, True Mandraak, WF Mxy. Those are DCU no?
Primal monitor is just another form of presence as percieved by monitors. Neither mandrakk nor mxy are anywhere near presence. Heck not even ultimator is anywhere near presence.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
GTFO! You make no sense.

The first two : Primal Monitor and True Mandraak looked upon the Presence's creation as a microbe. The last one, WF Mxy, undoes then recreates the entire DC OMNIVERSE weekly. Just these three beings alone prove DC's "God" is weaksauce.

Marvel's TOAA doesn't have superiors, equals, or opposites. It really is supreme in Marvel's Omniverse. The same can't be said for DC's "God".

Originally posted by abhilegend
Primal monitor is just another form of presence as percieved by monitors. Neither mandrakk nor mxy are anywhere near presence. Heck not even ultimator is anywhere near presence.

I'd kinda disagree with that. There is not enough info to make such a claim. PM could be above god, the same as god, or whatever.

Originally posted by zopzop
The first two : Primal Monitor and True Mandraak looked upon the Presence's creation as a microbe. The last one, WF Mxy, undoes then recreates the entire DC OMNIVERSE weekly. Just these three beings alone prove DC's "God" is weaksauce.

Marvel's TOAA doesn't have superiors, equals, or opposites. It really is supreme in Marvel's Omniverse. The same can't be said for DC's "God".

For all we know PM is the SAME. Or below the Presence. Unless you have proof.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Primal monitor is just another form of presence as percieved by monitors.

Proof?



The Presence's creation was a microbe to Primal Monitor and True Mandrakk. WF Mxy undoes and recreates the DC Omniverse weekly. This by definition would include the Presence.

Originally posted by zopzop


Galan has the info in his Swamp Thing respect thread on these forums.



No, they are each others polar opposite. GEB challenged "God" and the fight ended in "perhaps a stalemate" :
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/Lucifer18.jpg

Marvel's TOAA has NO opposite or equal and no challengers to his power.
You're leaving a lot of context there. I've to read American gothic again. No disrespect to galan but I don't trust respect thread. Your reasoning is flawed.

Originally posted by zopzop


Proof?



The Presence's creation was a microbe to Primal Monitor and True Mandrakk. WF Mxy undoes and recreates the DC Omniverse weekly. This by definition would include the Presence.

No it was a microbe to PM NOT Mandrakk. For all we know Presnece can look down upon PM.

Originally posted by zopzop


Proof?



The Presence's creation was a microbe to Primal Monitor and True Mandrakk. WF Mxy undoes and recreates the DC Omniverse weekly. This by definition would include the Presence.
Mr master has a list of beings who have destroyed entire MU. Does that make TOAA weaksauce?

Originally posted by Prep-Man
For all we know PM is the SAME. Or below the Presence. Unless you have proof.

Why would he look upon the Presence's creation as a microbe (if he was below the Presence)? Why was he ignorant of the 52 Universes until he discovered them if he was the Presence (wouldn't the Presence be aware of it's own creation if PM and the Presence were the same being)?

Originally posted by zopzop
Why would he look upon the Presence's creation as a microbe (if he was below the Presence)? Why was he ignorant of the 52 Universes until he discovered them if he was the Presence (wouldn't the Presence be aware of it's own creation if PM and the Presence were the same being)?

I never said they were the same. Just that there is not enough info on PM to say he is above.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Mr master has a list of beings who have destroyed entire MU. Does that make TOAA weaksauce?

No because Marvel has an entire OMNIVERSE. The Living Tribunal, who is below TOAA, held entire Megaverses (Megaveres are clusters of MULTIVERSES) in his hands!

Originally posted by zopzop
No because Marvel has an entire OMNIVERSE. The Living Tribunal, who is below TOAA, held entire Megaverses (Megaveres are clusters of MULTIVERSES) in his hands!
And? Merlyn channeled the power of entire omniverse at MJJ IIRC. Sis-neg destroyed entire MU. Alien Entity remade entire MU using reed's knowledge. CK destroyed and hercules restored 99.8% of all creation. I can go on. Does this mean TOAA is weaksauce?

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
Lucifer did the same, telling her "you have no hold over me", and then threatened her...

True. I remembered that haha. Well instill think it would be a good match

Originally posted by abhilegend
And? Merlyn channeled the power of entire omniverse at MJJ IIRC. Sis-neg destroyed entire MU. Alien Entity remade entire MU using reed's knowledge. CK destroyed and hercules restored 99.8% of all creation. I can go on. Does this mean TOAA is weaksauce?

None of those beings even proved a challenge to the Living Tribunal, let alone TOAA.

Sis-neg destroyed 616 MU, what's the problem? THere are other universes, multiverses, megavereses in Marvel's OMNIVERSE.

Ditto Alien Entity.

CK and Hercules were playing around with multiversal power. There are other MULTIVERSES, MEGAVERSES in Marvel's OMNIVERSE. So what's the problem? Proof : Death itself escaped outside the Multiverse in that arc.

So no, nothing you brought up changes the fact that TOAA has no opposites, equals or challengers to it's authority.

I'll have to look up the MJJ/Merlyn incident.

Originally posted by zopzop
No because Marvel has an entire OMNIVERSE. The Living Tribunal, who is below TOAA, held entire Megaverses (Megaveres are clusters of MULTIVERSES) in his hands!

DC has both actually.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
DC has both actually.

Ok, but the Presence or Vertigo's "God" aren't supreme across ALL of them like Marvel's TOAA is. That's my whole point.

There is no Supreme Being A in universe 625 or Supreme Being B in multiverse X, there is ONLY one Supreme Being : TOAA.

Originally posted by zopzop
Ok, but the Presence or Vertigo's "God" aren't supreme across ALL of them like Marvel's TOAA is. That's my whole point.

There is no Supreme Being A in universe 625 or Supreme Being B in multiverse X, there is ONLY one Supreme Being : TOAA.

Based on WHAT?

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Based on WHAT?

You just told me, that the Presence and Vertigo's "God" aren't the same being. Those two universes/multiverses/megaverses (mainline DC and Vertigo) are part of the greater DC omniverse no? That right there proves my point.

Marvel's TOAA is the same and supreme in the entire Marvel OMNIVERSE.

Originally posted by zopzop
You just told me, that the Presence and Vertigo's "God" aren't the same being. Those two universes/multiverses/megaverses (mainline DC and Vertigo) are part of the greater DC omniverse no? That right there proves my point.

Marvel's TOAA is the same and supreme in the entire Marvel OMNIVERSE.

No it doesn't, because they are not even linked in the same omniverse. Unless you have scans to show it. Vertigo is it's own separate thing.

DC just merged Vertigo in the main DCU, HOWEVER Hellblazer is still it's own thing, not connected to the DCU. Weird, I know.

DCU's God on the other hand is linked throughout it's creation.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
No it doesn't, because they are not even linked in the same omniverse. Unless you have scans to show it. Vertigo is it's own separate thing.

DC just merged Vertigo in the main DCU, HOWEVER Hellblazer is still it's own thing, not connected to the DCU. Weird, I know.

DCU's God on the other hand is linked throughout it's creation.

But it's still in the same omniverse that is DC. I'm using this definition of omniverse :
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/7932/omniis1cz2.jpg


Each company (Marvel and DC) is comprised of ONE omniverse that consists of EVERYTHING that is associated with that company. In DC's case this would include Vertigo and its other comic lines.

Hence if the Presence or Vertigo's "God" isn't supreme among ALL DC's comic lines (like TOAA is in Marvel) then they aren't comparable to TOAA in power and authority.

TOAA at Marvel has no peers, opposites, or challengers and is supreme in all it's comic lines.

It's different in DC, for the same reason Preacher wouldn't be part of it's Omniverse. Or Fables. Vertigo is it's own thing, with it's own continuity.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
It's different in DC, for the same reason Preacher wouldn't be part of it's Omniverse. Or Fables. Vertigo is it's own thing, with it's own continuity.

Again, this proves my point. Marvel's TOAA is supreme in it's entire omniverse. There are different "Supreme" Beings in DC's omniverse that correspond to their respective comic lines.

Marvel's TOAA has no competition anywhere inside their line of comics.

No it doesn't. DC's Omniverse is run by it's own God.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
No it doesn't. DC's Omniverse is run by it's own God.

Ok and whoever that "God" is isn't the Presence or Vertigo's "God" or the "God" in Preacher.

This topic was about these three Vertigo Angels vs Three Marvel Cosmics. You've already admitted that Vertigo's "God" holds no sway over universes other than in its own comic line. We've seen Vertigo's "God" have an opposite : GEB. We've seen he could have been overthrown by Swamp Thing amped by the Elemental Congress'.

This is why I was less then impressed by claims that Michael is "second only to Vertigo's "God"". So far the Angels got nothing going for them feats or fights wise and they are up against a Marvel cosmic that was crushing pantheons and their skyfathers and devoured 98% of the 616 multiverse. Now add in Abraxas (let's just ignore Zom for now) and Team 1 gets absolutely crushed.

CK ALONE could destroy Team 1.

Right, so now you get it. Vertigo isn't part of the DCU proper. Or main DCU. If it was, you would have a good point.

i'm still going with team 2. i could see if it was christ and the anti-christ on team 1, but it's only lucifer gabe and michael. team 2 comes from a more thoroughly structured continuity that takes religion and all that into account.

and imo if you count mikaboshi at his highest he should be at least like synnar in power and concept because if there is 'nothing' then there is no angels either. i bet mikaboshi could end up consuming them or adding them to his army

zom is probably the weakest link in team 2, i would have put cytorrak in there

The DC angels destroy the Marvel cosmics... Silly thread with some people not taking things into context (or out of it).

Originally posted by zopzop
Ok and whoever that "God" is isn't the Presence or Vertigo's "God" or the "God" in Preacher.

This topic was about these three Vertigo Angels vs Three Marvel Cosmics. You've already admitted that Vertigo's "God" holds no sway over universes other than in its own comic line. We've seen Vertigo's "God" have an opposite : GEB. We've seen he could have been overthrown by Swamp Thing amped by the Elemental Congress'.

This is why I was less then impressed by claims that Michael is "second only to Vertigo's "God"". So far the Angels got nothing going for them feats or fights wise and they are up against a Marvel cosmic that was crushing pantheons and their skyfathers and devoured 98% of the 616 multiverse. Now add in Abraxas (let's just ignore Zom for now) and Team 1 gets absolutely crushed.

CK ALONE could destroy Team 1.
Wishful thinking.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Wishful thinking.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.urlesque.com/media/2010/05/hatereagle.jpg

WTF @ this lasting 7 pages.

Originally posted by kevdude
The DC angels destroy the Marvel cosmics... Silly thread with some people not taking things into context (or out of it).

Originally posted by zopzop
No because Marvel has an entire OMNIVERSE. The Living Tribunal, who is below TOAA, held entire Megaverses (Megaveres are clusters of MULTIVERSES) in his hands!

Yawn...and DCnU Merlin held all of space/time in his hands.

Anyone trying to claim Marvel wins this clearly wants cut and dry rankings -- you want everything lined up and spelled out for you. DC cosmics, especially Vertigo related, are far more complex and abstract. Relationships between characters and how one fits into another and the hierarchy at large is really vague and, I believe, intentionally made so for the reader to interpret as he or she wants.

Some people don't like that approach, and I get it. There's still some undeniable and absolute facts that we do know for sure:
1. The Presence/God is a true omnipotent. He created everything, and exists in everything (see Lucifer series; Zauriel). Characters like WF Mxy and such did not and cannot kill the Presence/God.
2. Michael and Lucifer are second only to God. No, they don't have combat feats. They don't need combat feats, and that's not how their characters are supposed to be. TOAA doesn't have combat feats, and he doesn't need them either.
3. Michael is the embodiment of God's power. He is an abstract. People don't generally get that. He is power. All of it. He also can't die.
4. Lucifer is the embodiment of God's will. He is also an abstract. He has God's infinite reality shaping power. He cannot create something from the void (only Michael can), but if it's already there, he can literally do anything. He doesn't do in comics for two reasons. First is that it would make the most boring comic ever. Second is that he prefers to work through others. He's not oblivious to cosmic design and the natural order of things.
5. The Great Evil Beast is the darkness/evil to the Presence's light/good. Even if you considered them separate, which I think is foolish, they merged and are complete now anyways. "The fight ended in perhaps a stalemate". Wow, do you really need it spelled out for you? Perhaps a stalemate because God was challenging himself, and neither side won or lost. There's no words to accurately describe something like that, hence how it was worded.
6. DCs God has never been explicitly challenged -- except by himself.
7. It is unknown how the Primal Monitor fits into the DC hierarchy. It is quite possible that the Primal Monitor and the Presence are one in the same. It's possible that the Primal Monitor is a representation of the reader or the writer. We don't know, and I doubt we'll ever know. Without being explicitly told otherwise, the Presence/God remains supreme.
8. The Spectre fluctuates in power constantly. You can't use his low feats as a gauge to measure other characters. You can use his high feats as a gauge though (e.g. ZH and the like).
9. The Spectre, with Hal and Crispus as hosts, has been consistently written weaker than he has appeared in the past.
10. Forgot one related to Lucifer/Michael. They are canonically greater than the Endless such as Death, Sandman, etc.
11. Everyone in Marvel has low feats too, that are constantly ignored by Marvel fanatics. LT, with all his power, has been surpassed, BFR'd, and absorbed. Death has been killed and run off. I could write a book about Eternity's low showings. The point of this is not to say that Marvel characters are weak, but that some people pretend like DC cosmics have so many low showings and Marvel is so consistent that ABC logic can get you anywhere and blah blah blah and it's all bullshit.

Originally posted by abhilegend
So getting beat by someone second only to god is a low showing now? Reading scans isn't reading comics. Horrible logic. Not surprised.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Horrible logic.

Care to elaborate?

Originally posted by Cogito
Care to elaborate? What does second to god even mean ? Sandolphon wasn't third to god and he punked Michael on panel. Is Sandolphon greater than the Spectre iyo ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
What does second to god even mean ? Sandolphon wasn't third to god and he punked Michael on panel. Is Sandolphon greater than the Spectre iyo ?

Did Sandolphon ever fight Michael?

Originally posted by Cogito
Did Sandolphon ever fight Michael? By stabbing him in the back I'd say yes. Michael didn't get talked into submission. Looks like someone less powerful can hurt him. I'm glad we had this talk.

Originally posted by quanchi112
By stabbing him in the back I'd say yes. Michael didn't get talked into submission. Looks like someone less powerful can hurt him. I'm glad we had this talk.

Oh, you're right. Being stabbed in the back by someone who was supposed to be your ally is fighting.

Where do you come up with this stuff?

Originally posted by Cogito
Oh, you're right. Being stabbed in the back by someone who was supposed to be your ally is fighting.

Where do you come up with this stuff? It is fighting. It shows he can be beaten by someone nowhere near his power level. If Michael was beyond reproach Sandolphon's attack wouldn't have hurt him. I read the comics and the logic he's second to god is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard yet people flock to it like it means anything.

Originally posted by quanchi112
It is fighting. It shows he can be beaten by someone nowhere near his power level. If Michael was beyond reproach Sandolphon's attack wouldn't have hurt him. I read the comics and the logic he's second to god is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard yet people flock to it like it means anything.

Nobody said Michael was beyond reproach. He can, obviously, be backstabbed by other high ranking angels. He can, obviously, be challenged and nearly killed by Lucifer (as it happened).

You clearly missed the part I wrote about Michael being an abstract. He is God's power. He can't be killed. His "body" is a nothing but a container and "killing him" is merely releasing that power that is him. He instantly reforms another body.

Michael can't be killed any more than anyone can actually destroy God's power. Can't happen, won't happen, end of story.

Yes, he can be contained. Could it happen here? No, not if Michael is facing his enemy and no, Lucifer would free him instantly (infinite reality warping abilities, remember?). The only reason Lucifer didn't free him in his title run is because he didn't give a shit.

DC probably wins 6/10, but to me it's debatable.

i don't think it's fair steer towards an angels power being second only to "god" because that's just in their continuity. for this fight, they are fighting beings from another continuity where "god" is not acknowledged as the supreme creator of all...(it may or may not be the case, but there are many other factors)

for the record, I don't like how DC's god is portrayed as "omnipotent" because a writer is conveying the actions of the most high. in Marvel, the most high isn't shown but instead we get an "absolute" being in the form of LT. sure we have TOAA but at least when you see him, it shows that the infinity concept is in place because TOAA is a writer/artist and "god" would be whoever put his universe conditions in place. (that's where i apply the infinity concept, where existence continues on and on)

so for this fight, i put DC's angels somewhere around Scathan in significance. universe shaping/busting feats aside, there's potential for that on both sides. michael and lucifer might have the most power over Zom, because if balance is taken into consideration than any sentient being (god or mortal) has 2 sides -- good, and bad (positive and negative), which are abstract concepts representing chaos and order to the highest magnitudes.

Originally posted by Cogito
Nobody said Michael was beyond reproach. He can, obviously, be backstabbed by other high ranking angels. He can, obviously, be challenged and nearly killed by Lucifer (as it happened). Michael was nearly killed by Lucy because he was greatly weakened at the time. Sandolphon had the power to keep Michael as his prisoner and to defeat him in combat so this whole notion of second to god means squat.
He can be killed. He has been killed. Michael can be beaten into submission so he can lose and has lost on panel.
This is a versus thread. There are other ways of winning other than killing and we've seen far less power rip into his backside and have him at his opponents mercy. If I turn around or if I face my opponent the spear is cutting into me if it hits my skin. The same applies to Michael he wasn't invulnerable to the attack. He might have moved but that's another matter altogether. The power to hurt him is proven on panel. Lucy like Michael are beatable this notion they aren't really says ignore the entire run of his solo series.

Ok...you blatantly ignored everything I've said so I'll have to address this one point at a time.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Michael was nearly killed by Lucy because he was greatly weakened at the time. Sandolphon had the power to keep Michael as his prisoner and to defeat him in combat so this whole notion of second to god means squat.

Lucifer and Michael are equals. Both were weakened, and the beat each other half to death. Now, Sandolphon is a high ranking angel. That, and the fact that he backstabbed Michael, doesn't mean that anyone can do it. It more implies that Sandolphon is also really powerful, and that Michael can be hurt by really powerful beings that stab him in the back. It does not, in any way, imply that any John Doe or even an Abstract can do the same in a head to head confrontation. Sandy has intimate knowledge of the situation and his enemy that nobody else would have in a forum battle.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He can be killed. He has been killed. Michael can be beaten into submission so he can lose and has lost on panel.

He can't be killed, he has never been killed. He's an abstract of God's power. When his body is destroyed, he/his power comes out. Then it reforms. He isn't killed at any point.

He has only been "beaten into submission" once, and that was by Lucifer when both were weakened by the Presence's absence. You already know what would have happened if he had actually been "killed". The Multiverse would have been destroyed and he would have instantly reformed in an undamaged state. That's just called changing form. He's an abstract, with his power (which is what he is) being containted, to being uncontainted, to being contained again. No death involved.

Originally posted by quanchi112
This is a versus thread. There are other ways of winning other than killing and we've seen far less power rip into his backside and have him at his opponents mercy.

You don't know what amount of power that took. Sandolphon was a high ranking angel using angelic weaponry. Michael's back was turned. I see no high ranking angels with angelic weaponry on team 2, and I don't see any conditions that state that the fight starts with Michael's back turned.

Originally posted by quanchi112
If I turn around or if I face my opponent the spear is cutting into me if it hits my skin. The same applies to Michael he wasn't invulnerable to the attack. He might have moved but that's another matter altogether

I don't see how that's another matter altogether. Per forum rules:



Michael will fight to the best of his ability. He will move. He will stop the attack from hitting him to the best of his ability.


Originally posted by quanchi112
The power to hurt him is proven on panel.

And the power to hurt all of the characters on Team 2 has been proven on panel. What's your point?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Lucy like Michael are beatable this notion they aren't really says ignore the entire run of his solo series.

Right...lets review the list of characters that have hurt Michael in all time from the moment God created him to the end of the Lucifer series:
1. Sandolphon
2. Lucifer (while both were weakened by the Presence's absence)

And the list of characters that have hurt Lucifer (depowered or otherwise)
1. Michael (while both were weakened by the Presence's absence)

mmm

Originally posted by zopzop
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.urlesque.com/media/2010/05/hatereagle.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/My%20photos/Lulz/003q1656.gif

Originally posted by quanchi112
Horrible logic. Not surprised.
Yeah, you can tell me about it.

Originally posted by Cogito
Ok...you blatantly ignored everything I've said so I'll have to address this one point at a time.



Lucifer and Michael are equals. Both were weakened, and the beat each other half to death. Now, Sandolphon is a high ranking angel. That, and the fact that he backstabbed Michael, doesn't mean that anyone can do it. It more implies that Sandolphon is also really powerful, and that Michael can be hurt by really powerful beings that stab him in the back. It does not, in any way, imply that any John Doe or even an Abstract can do the same in a head to head confrontation. Sandy has intimate knowledge of the situation and his enemy that nobody else would have in a forum battle. They aren't equals. Lucy was tricked by Fenris into fighting Michael iirc. A higher rank doesn't denote a superiority in power necessarily. The president of the usa can't beat up chuck liddell. Sandolphon was later easily killed in battle. Just because he stabbed through Michael doesn't suggest he's uber powerful. Michael is quite powerful but his power doesn't translate over into uber durability, apparently.


Michael dies near the end of the book. Michael also doesn't need to be killed to be defeated. Stab through his back seems to work just fine. I argue based off panel you pretend.
The Presence doesn't exist in the threads it's just Michael. I don't recall the presence exiting creation at that point but it's been years since I read through this cover to cover. No, he dies and reforms. Sorry, I poo pooed on your vertigo character but it's supported on panel. How many fights did Michael even win ? LOL.

Higher rank doesn't have anything to do with higher power see the president example I gave.


Michael will attack I agree but he doesn't use his abilities to win the fight with a gestyure like he could have. You can't make Michael do something he's never done on panel.



That it's more powerful than a Sandolphon spear attack.


1.Yes, he dominated Michael.
2.Ok. Lucy is weaker and got the better of him yet another example of someone weaker beating Mikey.

1.Fenris. Lucy had to use tactics and his reasoning to best him. Lucy also used his mind along with help against the other high ranking angel in the duel. I can't recall his name off hand. Ameniel or something to that effect.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, you can tell me about it. So second only to god proves what ? You first need to prove what that "god" is capable of. You need to prove what other beings are capable of in this standalone story. You need to define what second to god even means.

Michael will attack I agree but he doesn't use his abilities to win the fight with a gestyure like he could have. You can't make Michael do something he's never done on panel.


This is wrong. If something is within someone's Power Set and abilities, then they can do it even if we have not see it on panel. You don't need to see the LT have super reaction feats on panel to know that he cannot be speedblitzed by Flash. Likewise, I don't need to see Fulcrum defend against Time Freezing to suggest Odin or other Sky Father's couldn't do that to him.

Not allowing Michael to use his full abilities goes against the Forum Rules.

Originally posted by BullwinkleMoose
This is wrong. If something is within someone's Power Set and abilities, then they can do it even if we have not see it on panel. You don't need to see the LT have super reaction feats on panel to know that he cannot be speedblitzed by Flash. Likewise, I don't need to see Fulcrum defend against Time Freezing to suggest Odin or other Sky Father's couldn't do that to him.

Not allowing Michael to use his full abilities goes against the Forum Rules. I wouldn't argue Lt is super fast either but he can see into the future and knows what will occur next so it's all good. Michael has full access to his abilities it just isn't in his character to nuke someone right out of the gate. You can't cbr him just because you like him. I argue what I read you don't.

It might not be in his character to Nuke the field but he has the capacity to and if fighting to the best of his abilities would do so if needed to win.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Michael dies near the end of the book.

Michael's gives his power (which is him, remember) to Elaine. He does not "die" in the sense you're trying to portray.

As for the rest of your post, you continue to ignorantly spout nonsense so I won't bother ripping your arguments to shreds again, because yo so stubbornly defend your ignorance and ABC logic with what you claim to be "on panel facts".

Have a good day.

Feat wise I go with Marvel.

kinda tired of the implied power argument. it has no place in forum battles.

There are more feats than implied, my friend.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
There are more feats than implied, my friend.

Indeed. They're just not combat feats.

Originally posted by Nietzschean
Feat wise I go with Marvel.

kinda tired of the implied power argument. it has no place in forum battles.

Without implied power arguments, debates spiral into "on panel evidence only" style arguments, which can be infinitely stupid. Especially when a lot of writers and stories feel that their readers are smart enough to put two and two together to get four. Vertigo characters don't have drop down, drag out battles like conventional Marvel/DC ones as a rule or needless displays of battleboard style feats. That doesn't make them not powerful.

Originally posted by Cogito
Indeed. They're just not combat feats.

Some are like the Michael/Spectre or Gabriel/Lucifer. Doesn't Michael have untold amounts of experience in war?

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Some are like the Michael/Spectre or Gabriel/Lucifer. Doesn't Michael have untold amounts of experience in war?

Michael is described as Heaven's greatest warrior as well as its most powerful being next to God.

Originally posted by BullwinkleMoose
It might not be in his character to Nuke the field but he has the capacity to and if fighting to the best of his abilities would do so if needed to win. Not unless you can show him doing so.

If you take his powers and use them yourself but that's taking the character out of the fight.Originally posted by Cogito
Michael's gives his power (which is him, remember) to Elaine. He does not "die" in the sense you're trying to portray.

As for the rest of your post, you continue to ignorantly spout nonsense so I won't bother ripping your arguments to shreds again, because yo so stubbornly defend your ignorance and ABC logic with what you claim to be "on panel facts".

Have a good day. So yes Michael dies. You said he didn't which is a lie.

Run away while I'll continue to beat my chest.