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Minato vs Itachi

Who wins?
Both of them at full power.

Minato.

Itachi is awesome, and has sharengan, but Minato has so much raw power, is much faster, and superior techs.

Originally posted by menokokoro
Minato.

Itachi is awesome, and has sharengan, but Minato has so much raw power, is much faster, and superior techs.

Explain the underlined part.

Itachi uses Susano'o > gg Minato

But to make Susano'o appear I think that Itachi must first use Tsukuyomi and then Amaterasu and Minato can do something to stop that with his speed.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Itachi uses Susano'o and Minato easily dodges like Raikage does but more easily because Raikage admits that Minato was faster than him. Afterwords, Itachi has a seal placed on him. GG Itachi.

Corrected for accuracy.


Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Explain the underlined part.

What, the massive amount of strength Minato has? Yeah, that's obvious.

Didn't Minato block a Biju Ball from a full-powered Kyuubi? That seems pretty massively powerful to me.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Didn't Minato block a Biju Ball from a full-powered Kyuubi? That seems pretty massively powerful to me.

He teleported it. That is some very high defensive capability.


What makes us think that he cannot teleport the amaterasu attacks, as well? Not nearly as large.


Hell, after he puts a tag on Itachi...he could teleport Itachi's own attacks on to him. mwhahahahahahahaha


This is why you don't mess with Minato.

Minato. Itachi would be doomed without Susaano, with it, he puts of a fight but goes down.

But with Susano'o Minato can't put the seal in Itachi unless he puts his special kunai near Itachi before he activates Susano'o but Itachi is not fool to let that happen but Minato would do something inteligent or... wow, the two of them are so good, is hard to guess about the fight.

Itachi has sword of totsuka(probably most powerful weapon in series, in all likelyhood, sword seeked for years by orochimaru) and the yata mirror(perfect defense against any attack) two of the divine celestial weapons(japanese imperial regalia), and it has been said with these in hand he is practically invincible.-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Regalia_of_Japan

Originally posted by ichigo12
Minato vs Itachi

Who wins?
Both of them at full power.

Kotoamatsukami ends Minato's chances of winning. kruemelmonsteryn0

Originally posted by En Sabah Nur X
Itachi has sword of totsuka(probably most powerful weapon in series, in all likelyhood, sword seeked for years by orochimaru) and the yata mirror(perfect defense against any attack) two of the divine celestial weapons(japanese imperial regalia), and it has been said with these in hand he is practically invincible.-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Regalia_of_Japan

Here's the problem and why I think Itachi would still lose:

Minato can port away until Itachi runs out of chakra. Then poof goes his Susano'o and weapons. A ninja is likely to do that in Naruto...especially the super assassin Minato.


Minato only has to port far enough away to keep out of his sight but he can still keep an eye on Itachi. The Sharingan is not the byakugan.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Explain the underlined part. hmmm, I guess I wasn't really thinking when I said that haha. But what I WAS thinking, was when he teleported the kyuubi's blast away, then had chakra to seal the kyuubi.

Even though he hasn't shown to have more RAW POWER like I said, I still think he would win....for the OTHER reasons I said haha.

Originally posted by menokokoro
hmmm, I guess I wasn't really thinking when I said that haha. But what I WAS thinking, was when he teleported the kyuubi's blast away, then had chakra to seal the kyuubi.

Even though he hasn't shown to have more RAW POWER like I said, I still think he would win....for the OTHER reasons I said haha.

Ah. Cause I was confused. The only real offensive jutsu Minato has used is Rasengan(and teh Death God).

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Ah. Cause I was confused. The only real offensive jutsu Minato has used is Rasengan(and teh Death God). Both of which could win this (if and when he lands an attack), though I doubt he would use the Shinigami on Itachi. The only reason the Third used it, was because the First and Second were invincible otherwise.

But the reason I say he'd win, is he is SO fast, both in physical speed, and making plans. He instantly knows what to do, and instantly implement these plans. Itachi is similar, but...Minato...hmm, honestly, the biggest reason I think minato would win, is because I think he SHOULD be better, but when I look at only the FACTS, it isn't as sure a thing. He is faster physically, but we don't know if he can get passed susanoo, etc....I don't know, I do think he'd win, but I don't know what to say to show this.

Minato can overwhelm Itachi with his speed, and once he puts the seal on Itachi is all over, except if Itachi uses Susano'o.

Itachi of course

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Ah. Cause I was confused. The only real offensive jutsu Minato has used is Rasengan(and teh Death God). which he can pretty much hit everyone in the manga with till they collapse.

Explain how Itachi would win this fight.

Originally posted by ichigo12
Explain how Itachi would win this fight. By winning.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
By winning.

Originally posted by ichigo12
Explain how Itachi would win this fight. he raises his right hand and places a basic genjutsu on him. Even if it only takes Minato a second or two in order to break it, how much time does Itachi need to appear infront of him and place tsukuyomi on him? Minatos faster but itachi isnt exactly slow either.

Do Minato knows the Uchiha's abilities? If yes, he easily can evade Itachi and his Sharingan but if no, he would use his kunais and he would teleport in a blink of an eye and to put a genjutsu its an blink of an eye and half xD

Minato grew up and was Hokage during a time when the Uchiha were still a part of Konoha, so I assume that he's well-versed in their abilities.

Cool, he has now more chances of winning but Itachi still has some chances cause of his great abilities in genjustu.

Doesn't take long for Susanoo to be summoned either. He summoned it before Sasuke's Kirin (or whatever its called.) struck him. Minato can't really try and outlast it once its out either. Sharingan may not be the Byakugan in its ability to see, but it can still see the chakra in its opponent. Minato would be clearly visible to Itachi if he was trying to hide or some such. Which unless there's some jutsu I don't now about, is all he would be able to do once Itachi pulls the trump card out.


Now I don't want to sound like I'm saying Minato loses 10/10. He wouldn't lol. But ultimately Itachi is his superior and would win more than not.

Originally posted by ichigo12
Do Minato knows the Uchiha's abilities? If yes, he easily can evade Itachi and his Sharingan but if no, he would use his kunais and he would teleport in a blink of an eye and to put a genjutsu its an blink of an eye and half xD he pwnt tobi; an ultimate uchiha fanboy

Minato will find out Itachi's abilities in an instant like he did with Tobi and already knowing the Uchiha's abilities increases his chances.

.....Beating Tobi lets him somehow get an advantage over Itachi? Despite the completely different abilities that they both have? And the fact that Tobi didn't have Mangekyo? No....

Minato wins if Itachi fights him head to head. Like speed to speed. Or with his regular Taijutsu and Ninjutsu. That type of battle. Wouldn't be hard for Minato to place a seal on Itachi during the fight then Minato could teleport in for the kill shot.

But if Itachi uses his abilities like I said earlier.....Yondaime isn't winning. Thats really not debatable in my opinion.

I did not say that beating Tobi grants Minato an advantage, I say that like in the fight with Tobi, Minato fastly discovered Tobi's abilities, he can do it too with Itachi.

ah my mistake then. I misinterpreted your intentions.

No problem



Only Shisui has the Kotoamatsukami, and his eyes are in one of Itachi's crows and the other one is in Danzo.

Originally posted by ichigo12
Only Shisui has the Kotoamatsukami, and his eyes are in one of Itachi's crows and the other one is in Danzo. Originally posted by ichigo12
his eyes are in one of Itachi's crows

Itachi killed said Crow, burning said eye. vin

That Amaterasu was really just a Genjutsu. vin

Pfft, Part 2 as a whole was a genjutsu. Itachi has been watching too much Code Geass.

Part 2 needs more Rolo Geass. mmm

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Part 2 needs more Rolo Geass. mmm

It actually has been speculated that the new EMS power is something like that. Really, Sasuke needs something to counter Naruto's massive speed.

Could work. He has Bismarck's Geass though. Just needs a major amp on that for it to work against Naruto's speed.

Wait, it was a genjustu when Itachi burned the crow!? Wow, I need to put more attention lol.

Lawl. I was just kidding. He actually did burn it.

I'm glad the victor has been decided.

http://www.absoluteanime.com/naruto/itachi%5B3%5D.jpg

Yeah, Itachi is as fast as or faster than Sasuke, who has been calced to be faster than Minato. vin

Sasuke sucks. Itachi's the only real Uchiha.

Itachi's dead. Sasuke's the only real Uchiha left.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Itachi's dead. Sasuke's the only real Uchiha left.

Because Itachi allowed it. Sasuke needs Itachi's permission even to kill him. http://images.killermovies.com/forums/customsmilies/peaches.gif

No, the victor has not been decided, with the Kotoamatsukami arguement ending in that Itachi does not have it, there are no more things Itachi can do.

What!? Sasuke is not faster than Minato, actually is the Raikage, and himself said that no one was faster than Minato.

Originally posted by ichigo12
No, the victor has not been decided, with the Kotoamatsukami arguement ending in that Itachi does not have it, there are no more things Itachi can do. your best argument has been "Minato will find a way" pretty much....so unless there is something other than that I see no reason for this to remain undecided.

Once Minato puts a seal in Itachi is all over. How?
Itachi does not knows about Minato's kunai so Minato will throw it near Itachi then he transports, puts the seal and then GOODBYE ITACHI.

In the time it takes minato to throw the kunai itachi catches him in a genjutsu. All he has to do is raise his hand ay him for it to happen. When minato breaks out of it (quickly of course) he now has amaterasu on his chest. Or he sees that Itachi just popped susanoo. Goodbye minato.

So you are saying that throwing a kunai takes time to Minato?
How would Itachi do a genjustu while concentrating in avoiding the kunai?

Unless his knives have teleportaion jutsu then yes a certain amount of time will have to pass for them to reach Itachi.

By countering it with his own Kunai and casting the genjutsu in the process.

He could also cast a simple genjutsu by glancing at Minatos eyes.Just like he did with deidara. And that would be even worse.

But remember that Minato already knows the Uchiha's abilities, he would find a way to evade it.

........

Originally posted by Damborgson
Unless his knives have teleportaion jutsu then yes a certain amount of time will have to pass for them to reach Itachi.

By countering it with his own Kunai and casting the genjutsu in the process.

He could also cast a simple genjutsu by glancing at Minatos eyes.Just like he did with deidara. And that would be even worse.

He throws his own knives to block the incomming attack and Minato teleports next to the deflected knives throwing again, hardpressed Itachi tries to burn the knives only to find out Minato acted during his distraction, he gets tagged and goes down like a chump.

Glad we agree biscuits

See? A good strategy, cause deflecting a kunai will not send the other kunai so far, the distance is enough for Minato to get to Itachi.

Lol?

Yes because of how hardpressed Itachi is with Kunais right? Or how pressed he is for casting genjutsu in battle right? He can trick Sharingan users. It wont be hard to trick minato. Itachi could cast the genjutsu with the throwing of the deflecting kunai. Minato teleports in to attack and finds out that itachi just turned to crows. He breaks the genjutsu and finds himself string right at Itachi's mangeko. Tsukuyomi. 72 hours of mental torture. Then Itachi incinerates him with Amaterasu.


Worst case scenerio, Minato manages to teleport in close. Itachi pops susanoo. Game over.

Susano'o attacks are not so fast, while Itachi trys to attack Minato has plenty of time to throw his kunai and teleport away.

So his only option is to run away?

Susanoo isn't Itachi's only tool. He can still use his other MS abilities while inside it. Amaterasu would be more than enough. And Minato isn't dodging all of Itachi's susanoos' attacks. Sooner or later he'll get messed up. Either from having to watch the encroaching flames of Amaterasu or from the general destruction that would be caused from Susanoo's attacks. The totsuka blade would be waiting to trap him in a genjutsu would for all eternity.

And thats worse case scenario. Chances are Itachi wouldn't need to resort to this.

Minato simply teleports far away from the battle place, and when Itachi lows his guard, like deactivating Susano'o and stoping Sharingan Minato attacks so fast that Itachi would not know what hit him.

Originally posted by ichigo12
Minato simply teleports far away from the battle place, and when Itachi lows his guard, like deactivating Susano'o and stoping Sharingan Minato attacks so fast that Itachi would not know what hit him.

This is sort of my argument, as well.


Minato does not have to go very far. Just far enough to be out of range of the Sharingan. He can teleport to any location around Itachi with his Kunai.

Yea, like someone said, Sharingan is not the Byakugan.
Was it you dadudemon?

Sharingan doesn't have to be Byakugan. You still cant hide from it. It can see chakra. And if the only human chakra around is Minato....he'll see him.

and even if that were a valid strategy, while Minato is busy running and hiding Itachi creates a doppelganger. He lowers Susasnoo and when Minato teleports back in to try and get the kill, he's hit with Amatarasu as Itachi watches him attack the clone.

But if Minato goes very far, Itachi would not detect him.
And what if Minato does too a doppelganger, Itachi will attack it, and in the distraction Minato attacks, puts the seal, and teleport Itachi to a pit muahahahaha.

Yet unless he already has marks set up somewhere Itachi will be able to see him runaway. Which would result in Amaterasu to the back.

This fight is without prep time I assume.

Minato always prepares the battlefield with kunais in strategical positions.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Sharingan doesn't have to be Byakugan. You still cant hide from it. It can see chakra. And if the only human chakra around is Minato....he'll see him.

and even if that were a valid strategy, while Minato is busy running and hiding Itachi creates a doppelganger. He lowers Susasnoo and when Minato teleports back in to try and get the kill, he's hit with Amatarasu as Itachi watches him attack the clone.


Someone as high-level as Minato would not emit chakra. Only chakra monsters/idiots like Naruto and Raikage would emit chakra in a resting state. Minato would be insivible unless Minato used chakra.


At that, Minato just has to go far enough way to be out of sight of Itachi and he can still use chakra.


The Sharingan does not have very good x-ray vision. It seems to be able to look through things that are close but far away, it has not x-ray abilities.

I don't buy the "Minato can't dodge all the Susaano attacks" he may as well do it, it would be useless to spam attacks and spend heavy amounts of chakra by blasting a faster/smarter opponent with teleporting abilities. He can and would dodge as many attacks as needed before formulating an strategy and complicate things further for Itachi.

He may wait for Susano'o to dissapear or, I think I saw the Susano'o weak point is the back bone, is it true?

Originally posted by dadudemon
Someone as high-level as Minato would not emit chakra. Only chakra monsters/idiots like Naruto and Raikage would emit chakra in a resting state. Minato would be insivible unless Minato used chakra.


At that, Minato just has to go far enough way to be out of sight of Itachi and he can still use chakra.


The Sharingan does not have very good x-ray vision. It seems to be able to look through things that are close but far away, it has not x-ray abilities.

One of the main abilites of the sharingan is to be able to see the flow of chakra. And even resting, Minato will have visible chakra inside of him. Its not like the byakugan in that it won't see the chakra network with great detail or the tenketsu, or a basically 360 degree view all around and all that but it sees chakra as color. If it has chakra, the Sharingan can see it. And even if it couldnt for whatever reason due to him resting, his chakra would come alive as sonn as he teleported. Itachi wouldn't lost him after that.

Because he knows the limits of the sharingan? How far is far enough? All it would take with the mangekyo is one look at him and the amaterasu would do the rest. If he makes it far enough out to where Itachi can no longer pick him up he'd still be at a teribble disadvantage. Itachi isn't an idiot or standard shinobi, and marked knives close to his direction would stand out. He'd get rid of them. And honestly he's fast enough as he's proven to be able to pop susanoo before minato can harm him. If it can protect itachi frim Kirin it'll do it again Minato.


Why do you say that?

Originally posted by Bentley
I don't buy the "Minato can't dodge all the Susaano attacks" he may as well do it, it would be useless to spam attacks and spend heavy amounts of chakra by blasting a faster/smarter opponent with teleporting abilities. He can and would dodge as many attacks as needed before formulating an strategy and complicate things further for Itachi.


What strategy? Minato is smart, but Itachi isn't a below average shinobi in that field either. And Minato has little to no room for error. It's not like it would matter anyway though whether he'd dodge the susanno or not. It wouldnt get to that point. The fight would be over the second he was caught in a minor genjutsu. Tsukuyomi would be next.

btw yes I am uchihatard if anyones wondering

Minato would use his space-time jutsu and go after Itachi. Itachi could not evade it and receive a beating by Minato. Itachi would use Katon Gokakyu No Jutsu but Minato would evade it easily. Minato again would use space-time justu but with a kunai this time but Itachi uses Crow Bunshin and prepares tu use Amaterasu but Minato evades it easily again but Minato didn't notice Itachi caught him in wires and use Amaterasu but Minato evades at the last moment but Amaterasu caughts his leg.

Minato use the speed of light and frees himself from Amaterasu and hitting Itachi with Rasengan. Itachi badly wounded uses Susano'o but Minato summons Gamabunta but Itachi attacks Gamabunta with Totsuka Sword sealing him but that's not a problem and Minato summons him again (he may do it again because the Summon justu is of temporay space).

Once summoned again he teleports with Gamabunta inside Susano'o crushing Itachi and if not Minato uses Rasengan and is all over.

Originally posted by ichigo12
Minato would use his space-time jutsu and go after Itachi. Itachi could not evade it and receive a beating by Minato. Itachi would use Katon Gokakyu No Jutsu but Minato would evade it easily. Minato again would use space-time justu but with a kunai this time but Itachi uses Crow Bunshin and prepares tu use Amaterasu but Minato evades it easily again but Minato didn't notice Itachi caught him in wires and use Amaterasu but Minato evades at the last moment but Amaterasu caughts his leg.

Minato use the speed of light and frees himself from Amaterasu and hitting Itachi with Rasengan. Itachi badly wounded uses Susano'o but Minato summons Gamabunta but Itachi attacks Gamabunta with Totsuka Sword sealing him but that's not a problem and Minato summons him again (he may do it again because the Summon justu is of temporay space).

Once summoned again he teleports with Gamabunta inside Susano'o crushing Itachi and if not Minato uses Rasengan and is all over.

If Minato is caught with Amaterasu he isn't getting it off. Has he done anything that would even imply that thats possible? Has anyone done so? And being sealed inside the totsuka blade isnt like being teleported somewhere else. Its permanent genjutsu. The opponent is sealed in a genjutsu stupor for all eternity. And if Minato gets caught with wires.....their is no evading Amaterasu. He's done. you either get out of the casters sight instantly or its over.

Well, Minato would use his kunais to escape from the wires before Amaterasu get him.

Minato can run away all he likes. Itachi will still be able to cast a genjutsu on him.
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-540/page014.html

awesome

But without even glancing eyes, Itachi MUST SEE Minato in order to make a genjustu.

Which he could and would

technically, tobi has better genjutsu feats when it comes to controlling people.

I dont remember a moment when Tobi controlled someone, can you tell me when?

Yagura, the 4th Mizukage.

Itachi could have done the same thing, except from outside Kirigakure. awesome

First of all, who is better in Sharingan abilities, Tobi or Itachi?

Itachi. He has mangekyo....

Originally posted by ichigo12
First of all, who is better in Sharingan abilities, Tobi or Itachi?

Tobi - Izanagi, S/T Migration, Kotoamatsukami-like jutsu.

Itachi - Izanami, Susano'o, Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, and access to Koto. And there's a chance he knows how to perform Izanagi as well.

S/T Migration is the most broken thing here (apart from Izanagi/Izanami), but Itachi's Sharingan is more well-rounded due to him being able to access MS.

Maybe Tobi can enter too in MS mode, but he has not showed it.

Well, I'm glad the winner has been decided

http://images.wikia.com/naruto/es/images/7/71/Minato_Namikaze.png

Originally posted by ichigo12
Well, I'm glad the winner has been decided

http://images.wikia.com/naruto/es/images/7/71/Minato_Namikaze.png

You, sir, are correct.

So Minato wins but with difficulty or without?

I say he wins with effort, but not difficulty.

Lol?

The best argument for Minato has been based entirely on him somehow being able to get passed the initial combo genjutsu by Itachi. It won't happen. Minato will die one way or another. Either from having his mind torn apart or his body torn apart.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Lol?

The best argument for Minato has been based entirely on him somehow being able to get passed the initial combo genjutsu by Itachi. It won't happen. Minato will die one way or another. Either from having his mind torn apart or his body torn apart.


Here is how it goes and why you fail:

Sasuke barely won against Itachi and Itachi went all out...Itachi even used Amaterasu which he is not doing against Kabuto, currently. He realy was pushing sasuke to his limits and could have easily killed Sasuke.

B made a far more powerful version of Sasuke and all of team hawk look like fools and toys.

Minato made both A and B at the same time look like fools. (B may have gotten a bit stronger since that time, but not by much. A is about the same.)


By the powers invested in me, I now pronounce you pwned.

http://www.mytinyphone.com/uploads/users/jonnybravo/386922.gif

A>B

B>C

A>C?

Originally posted by dadudemon
Here is how it goes and why you fail:

Sasuke barely won against Itachi and Itachi went all out...Itachi even used Amaterasu which he is not doing against Kabuto, currently. He realy was pushing sasuke to his limits and could have easily killed Sasuke.

B made a far more powerful version of Sasuke and all of team hawk look like fools and toys.

Minato made both A and B at the same time look like fools. (B may have gotten a bit stronger since that time, but not by much. A is about the same.)


By the powers invested in me, I now pronounce you pwned.



lets look past the flawed ABC logic, and um....the rest of the nonsense.

A nearly blind and Holding back Itachi who purposely extended the fight to get rid of Sasuke's curse mark and had no intention winning lost to Sasuke.

The Same B who was getting raped by the Amaterasu lol? In 8 tails for btw?

Younger less powerful versions...

That was quite the self pwn actually.


Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
http://www.mytinyphone.com/uploads/users/jonnybravo/386922.gif

I think this sums it up pretty well.

Even if it was the younger versions Minato pwned both of them fast while B alone pwned Taka completely.

http://danielmiessler.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/facepalm.png

What!?

Originally posted by ichigo12
Even if it was the younger versions Minato pwned both of them fast while B alone pwned Taka completely.

facepalm2

He owned A. Bee and Minato were left in a stalemate, the resolution of which we never saw. This occurred over 17 years before current events. A & B would have gotten a fair bit stronger since then.

That shit aside, Bee stomped a Sasuke that was nowhere near as powerful as he was when he fought a near-blind, holding back, on-his-deathbed Itachi.
He was still in the midst of recovering from the thrashing Itachi gave him, and he had lost Orochimaru's abilities as well as the abilities the Cursed Seal gave him, which were massive amps. All he got in return was a weak-ass genjutsu that would have owned Bee had it not been for his complete mastery over the Hachibi.

If you want me to come up with ridiculous logic, I can simply point to how Itachi briefly clashed with Bee & Naruto, and neither of them could even touch him, proving that he is every bit as fast as they are. When Nagato easily owned Naruto & Bee, Itachi proceeded to save their asses, and was the reason they were able to win.



ABC logic is weak in Naruto-verse in most cases because there is a Rock-Paper-Scissors type system that Kishi employs.

Originally posted by Damborgson
I think this sums it up pretty well.

Yeah, I saw Cogito using it as a response to one of Quanchi's typical posts, and I liked the gif.

It fit here pretty well.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
facepalm2

He owned A. Bee and Minato were left in a stalemate, the resolution of which we never saw. This occurred over 17 years before current events. A & B would have gotten a fair bit stronger since then.

That shit aside, Bee stomped a Sasuke that was nowhere near as powerful as he was when he fought a near-blind, holding back, on-his-deathbed Itachi.
He was still in the midst of recovering from the thrashing Itachi gave him, and he had lost Orochimaru's abilities as well as the abilities the Cursed Seal gave him, which were massive amps. All he got in return was a weak-ass genjutsu that would have owned Bee had it not been for his complete mastery over the Hachibi.

If you want me to come up with ridiculous logic, I can simply point to how Itachi briefly clashed with Bee & Naruto, and neither of them could even touch him, proving that he is every bit as fast as they are. When Nagato easily owned Naruto & Bee, Itachi proceeded to save their asses, and was the reason they were able to win.



ABC logic is weak in Naruto-verse in most cases because there is a Rock-Paper-Scissors type system that Kishi employs.



Yeah, I saw Cogito using it as a response to one of Quanchi's typical posts, and I liked the gif.

It fit here pretty well.


Well said.

And yes it does.

Originally posted by Damborgson


lets look past the flawed ABC logic, and um....the rest of the nonsense.

You mean be illogical to make a point about how much you like Itachi, right?

Originally posted by Damborgson
A nearly blind and Holding back Itachi who purposely extended the fight to get rid of Sasuke's curse mark and had no intention winning lost to Sasuke.

No, Itachi was not nearly blind. He could see just fine. He did not purposefully extend the fight. He used amaterasu right at Sasuke.

Originally posted by Damborgson
The Same B who was getting raped by the Amaterasu lol? In 8 tails for btw?

No, B used it as a ruse to pretend to get captured so he could escape because he was tired of his military life.


Originally posted by Damborgson
Younger less powerful versions...

No difference seen in power. B could create partial manifestations ultra fast. If anything, he has better speed feats in the flash back than he does, now.

Originally posted by Damborgson
That was quite the self pwn actually.

If you mean your poor attempt at a rebuttal, I agree.




Originally posted by Damborgson
I think this sums it up pretty well.

It doesn't. He is about to get some pwn, as well. I have plenty to go around.

Line up.

Originally posted by ichigo12
Even if it was the younger versions Minato pwned both of them fast while B alone pwned Taka completely.

Oh boy. Here is some decent logic.

Let's be real here.

Minato wins.

Itachi has some big techs and a more varied move-set, but Minato is specialised enough that he can take out Itachi without coming into much harm himself.

Itachi's only relevant jutsu are huge, chakra sapping ones, that won't hit Minato in all likelihood.

Minato 8/10.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
facepalm2

He owned A. Bee and Minato were left in a stalemate, the resolution of which we never saw. This occurred over 17 years before current events. A & B would have gotten a fair bit stronger since then.

No, he owned A and B at the same time. Minato only stopped. B was hardly in a position to be owning anyone...Minato had planned to stop the charade.


A is an old man and B is aging. B has his fastest speed feat in the flashback.


Even if you pretend Minato was Stalemated by fighting B and A at the same time...you still admit that Minato is definitely superior to both of them.

Also, A compared his punch from back then to his punch against Naruto. Seems his speed hasn't improved.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
That shit aside, Bee stomped a Sasuke that was nowhere near as powerful as he was when he fought a near-blind, holding back, on-his-deathbed Itachi.

This is false. Sasuke Stalemated Itachi. Itachi's best feats, up to that point, came from that fight. Itachi did have the upper hand, however.

Itachi was not "nearly blind", either. If you want to claim he was nearly blind, you need the commentary to back that up.


Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
He was still in the midst of recovering from the thrashing Itachi gave him, and he had lost Orochimaru's abilities as well as the abilities the Cursed Seal gave him, which were massive amps. All he got in return was a weak-ass genjutsu that would have owned Bee had it not been for his complete mastery over the Hachibi.

No, he wasn't recovering. He was healed. He got healed during the middle of his fight, too...twice.


Sasuke also got two new techs for his fight: amaterasu and tsukyomi. So any excuses that Sasuke was some how magically weaker are plain wrong.


An ultra powered up form of Sasuke got pwned like no other, against B...twice. There is no excuse for this.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
If you want me to come up with ridiculous logic, I can simply point to how Itachi briefly clashed with Bee & Naruto, and neither of them could even touch him, proving that he is every bit as fast as they are. When Nagato easily owned Naruto & Bee, Itachi proceeded to save their asses, and was the reason they were able to win.

Nagato was called, by Naruto, as being even deadlier in that version he was in. Nagato also healed his ET body....which is very simply PIS.

Itachi also was not every bit as fast as B and Naruto. And that version of Itachi would be healthy.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix


ABC logic is weak in Naruto-verse in most cases because there is a Rock-Paper-Scissors type system that Kishi employs.

ABC logic works awesome in this case but the Itachi fanboys cannot stand it.


Itachi does not have the speed to contend with the precision, variety, and power of Minato.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
That shit aside, Bee stomped a Sasuke that was nowhere near as powerful as he was when he fought a near-blind, holding back, on-his-deathbed Itachi. sasuke was more powerful after itachi

as of now: all sasuke really gained was susano'o to take on bee. tsukyomi and amatarasu won't cut it cause of the hachibi and sasuke's speed, fighting skill, and lightning affinity are at least negated if not surpassed by bee himself.

sasuke's susano'o has the arrows which are his only real hope imo, but then again he might be trading attacks since hachibi can use bijuu-bomb, but then again he has version 2 which deals the same damage but keeps his original silhouette and speed. samahada might be a factor also.

sasuke can't hang with bee today imo, well until we get to see what ems provides.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, he owned A and B at the same time. Minato only stopped. B was hardly in a position to be owning anyone...Minato had planned to stop the charade.


A is an old man and B is aging. B has his fastest speed feat in the flashback.


Even if you pretend Minato was Stalemated by fighting B and A at the same time...you still admit that Minato is definitely superior to both of them.

Also, A compared his punch from back then to his punch against Naruto. Seems his speed hasn't improved.

Wrong.

A is 40-50. Younger than Jiraiya or Hiruzen or Danzou or Onoki.

Stalemated by Bee who saw through Minato's tactic, not both A and Bee.
Superior to A, yes. Superior to young Bee. No idea. Prove otherwise.

Prove he was comparing it to the punch from his first fight against Minato, and not one of his later fights.
Based on how much chakra he was pouring into his armor, his punch against Naruto was faster than the one in the flashback.

Originally posted by dadudemon
This is false. Sasuke Stalemated Itachi. Itachi's best feats, up to that point, came from that fight. Itachi did have the upper hand, however.

Itachi was not "nearly blind", either. If you want to claim he was nearly blind, you need the commentary to back that up.

Wrong.
http://www.mangareader.net/93-406-2/naruto/chapter-401.html
http://www.mangareader.net/93-406-3/naruto/chapter-401.html

http://www.mangareader.net/93-394-9/naruto/chapter-389.html

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, he wasn't recovering. He was healed. He got healed during the middle of his fight, too...twice.

Wrong.

http://www.mangareader.net/93-420-12/naruto/chapter-415.html

Originally posted by dadudemon
Sasuke also got two new techs for his fight: amaterasu and tsukyomi. So any excuses that Sasuke was some how magically weaker are plain wrong.

Wrong.

Sasuke also got one new tech for his fight which was negated. He unlocked the second tech after Taka got owned and was on the verge of being killed, and the fight ended after that. So any excuses that Sasuke was some how magically stronger are plain wrong.

Originally posted by dadudemon
An ultra powered up form of Sasuke got pwned like no other, against B...twice. There is not excuse for this.

Wrong.

An ultra weakened form of Sasuke got pwned like no other against Bee...twice. There is not excuse for this.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Nagato was called, by Naruto, as being even deadlier in that version he was in. Nagato also healed his ET body....which is very simply PIS.

Itachi also was not every bit as fast as B and Naruto. And that version of Itachi would be healthy.

Irrelevant as neither Bee nor Naruto did any damage to Nagato and could not hope to touch him. Nagato still owned those two far more easily than Minato could ever wet dream of doing so.

Wrong. He was every bit as fast as Bee and Naruto.

Originally posted by dadudemon
ABC logic works awesome in this case the the Itachi fanboys cannot stand it.


Itachi does not have the speed to contend with the precision, variety, and power of Minato.

ABC logic does not works awesome in this case the the Minato fanbois cannot stand it.

Itachi does have the means to contend with the precision, variety, and power of Minato.

Not saying Itachi would win, since I do think Minato wins here, for now. Itachi makes him work for his victory though.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
sasuke was more powerful after itachi

as of now: all sasuke really gained was susano'o to take on bee. tsukyomi and amatarasu won't cut it cause of the hachibi and sasuke's speed, fighting skill, and lightning affinity are at least negated if not surpassed by bee himself.

sasuke's susano'o has the arrows which are his only real hope imo, but then again he might be trading attacks since hachibi can use bijuu-bomb, but then again he has version 2 which deals the same damage but keeps his original silhouette and speed. samahada might be a factor also.

sasuke can't hang with bee today imo, well until we get to see what ems provides.

http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/1007/mrt-facepalm-demotivational-poster-1279120782.jpg

Sasuke before fighting Itachi had all of Orochimaru's techs, including his enhanced regen, and the Cursed Seal amp. After he fought Itachi he lost all of that, and gained a weak-ass genjutsu instead. You'd have to be a retard or a troll to think that the Sasuke that fought Bee, who had not yet fully recovered from his fight with Itachi, was much stronger than the Sasuke that fought Itachi.
Not until the Danzou fight was MS Sasuke much stronger than Hebi Sasuke.

Taijutsu wise, Bee would win, as shown on panel.
Tsukuyomi and other Genjutsu would be negated, as shown on panel.
Amaterasu would pwn the Hachibi, as shown on panel.
Bee has no way of getting past Susano'o unless he uses Bijuu Mode, which would be owned by Amaterasu.
Samehada might work though.

If Samehada is capable of getting past Susano'o, then Bee would win. If it cannot, Sasuke would win IMO.

Originally posted by dadudemon
You mean be illogical to make a point about how much you like Itachi, right?



No, Itachi was not nearly blind. He could see just fine. He did not purposefully extend the fight. He used amaterasu right at Sasuke.



No, B used it as a ruse to pretend to get captured so he could escape because he was tired of his military life.




No difference seen in power. B could create partial manifestations ultra fast. If anything, he has better speed feats in the flash back than he does, now.



If you mean your poor attempt at a rebuttal, I agree.






It doesn't. He is about to get some pwn, as well. I have plenty to go around.

Line up.

My like of Itachi has nothing to do with your flawed ABC logic. Which is true despite you trying to steer away from what I said. I'm not claiming he's above 6 paths or Madara or something. But he's superior to Minato.


Yes he was. He went totally blind from one Tsukuyomi, one Amaterasu usage and activating Susanoo. Even before the actual fight started his vision of Sasuke was incredibly diminished.

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v42/c386/3.html

See?

And yes he did extend the fight. From you're responses it seems like you hardly payed attention to it. Or the talk Tobi had with Sasuke later. Itachi extended the fight with Sasuke in order to exhausst him and remove Orochimaru from his body.


After Bee was hit with Amaterasu is when he decided to slip out. That doesnt change the fact that when Bee got hit, he retreated instead of continuing his assault on taka. Unless you think his plan was "I hope that sharingan kid uses those weird eyes of his to create some jutsu where I'm forced to hid inside the tentacles of Hachibi and pretend to attack the girl so the Sharingan kid slices the tentacle off and I can escape in it as they take the tentacle doppelganger I leave behind. That'd be awesome yo."- Bee

In the Narutoverse, powers comes almost always with age. (not old age of course) Name one case of a character that did not improve with it. Arguing against it is silly really.

Lol? Thats cute but you gotta step your game up before you can say stuff like that.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
http://michaelnorthrop.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/thumbs-up-chuck.gif

^ I did say that Minato would win this.

But yes, Itachi is definitely > Minato. awesome

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Wrong.

A is 40-50. Younger than Jiraiya or Hiruzen or Danzou or Onoki.

You did not correct me. You proved me right.

40-50 is not prime, anymore. That's waning. What I said. You're wrong. (I would put in estahuh, right here, but I think I ran out of space)

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Stalemated by Bee who saw through Minato's tactic, not both A and Bee.
Superior to A, yes. Superior to young Bee. No idea. Prove otherwise.

No, he stopped, he did not stalemate with B. It is made to look like a stalemate but it is only due to Minato calling it quits.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Prove he was comparing it to the punch from his first fight against Minato, and not one of his later fights.

No. You know exactly what I'm talking about. What do you think about that?

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Based on how much chakra he was pouring into his armor, his punch against Naruto was faster than the one in the flashback.


Wrong: based on A's very words, you have sick pwnage.




Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Wrong.
http://www.mangareader.net/93-406-2/naruto/chapter-401.html
http://www.mangareader.net/93-406-3/naruto/chapter-401.html

My goal was for you to try and bring this up as a trump card...

Sasuke himself says Itachi tried to kill him multiple times. It does not matter if the overall goal was to draw forth Oro. Had Sasuke messed up, he would have died multiple times.

Additionally, the difference between an Itachi holding back and an Itachi going all out is the version of Itachi that is fighting Kabuto now. And thus, the trap your fell into.


Lastly, Itachi always had it in the plans to stop or even kill Sasuke if Sasuke turned against the village BEFORE he fought Sasuke:

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v58/c550/11.html

Game. Set. Match. 313


I guess you shouldn't rely on the lies of Tobi to set up your case, now should you? 313

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
http://www.mangareader.net/93-394-9/naruto/chapter-389.html

This was a very dishonest attempt on your part. Not sure why you would try this:

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v42/c389/10.html

It's the residual effects of Tsukyomi that were already wearing off by the very next page.

Let's not try to pull something like this again.


Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Wrong.

http://www.mangareader.net/93-420-12/naruto/chapter-415.html

I will concede this...however, you're committing a strawman.

There's a difference between what I said and Juugo stating that Itachi's wounds against Sasuke not healing: they won't heal. It is not something he can heal and this is what juugo is referring to. Scars? Permanent damage?



Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Wrong.

Sasuke also got one new tech for his fight which was negated. He unlocked the second tech after Taka got owned and was on the verge of being killed, and the fight ended after that. So any excuses that Sasuke was some how magically stronger are plain wrong.

Wrong, he used two new ultra-powerful techs during his fight with B that he did not have before. You're trying to move that bar just to be right.

Deal with the fact that Sasuke had two new techs to bring to the fight and stop pretending Sasuke was weaker than he was.





Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Wrong.

An ultra weakened form of Sasuke got pwned like no other against Bee...twice. There is not excuse for this.

Wrong: the strongest Sasuke has ever been (up to that point) was seen in this fight against B. Not only was Sasuke stronger in this fight than he was against Itachi, he got two healings to continue. Additionally, Sasuke used Amaterasu in a way Itachi was never seen using so in a way, he progressed further than Itachi by this point.





Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Irrelevant as neither Bee nor Naruto did any damage to Nagato and could not hope to touch him. Nagato still owned those two far more easily than Minato could ever wet dream of doing so.



Here's B touching Nagato:

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v58/c550/16.html


Additionally, every time they went to attack, speed from Nagato had nothing to do with it: he moved very little and did not have to react very much. The only thing Nagato did was react and move just a bit to catch both of them.

Here's Naruto's commentary on Nagato's level of mastery being much higher than before:

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v58/c551/9.html

Basically, Naruto and B are still much faster, physically, but Nagato does not have to move from his spot when they attack him.

Contrast this with Minato who is definitely not as dumb as Naruto.



Wrong. He was every bit as fast as Bee and Naruto.





Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
ABC logic does not works awesome in this case the the Minato fanbois cannot stand it.

ABC works wonderfully in this case and Itachi fanboys cannot stand it.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Itachi does have the means to contend with the precision, variety, and power of Minato.

Itachi does not have the means to contend with Minato's precision, power, and variety of Minato.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Not saying Itachi would win, since I do think Minato wins here, for now. Itachi makes him work for his victory though.

Minato makes an effort, but he is not pushed very hard.



Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Sasuke before fighting Itachi had all of Orochimaru's techs, including his enhanced regen, and the Cursed Seal amp. After he fought Itachi he lost all of that, and gained a weak-ass genjutsu instead. You'd have to be a retard or a troll to think that the Sasuke that fought Bee, who had not yet fully recovered from his fight with Itachi, was much stronger than the Sasuke that fought Itachi.
Not until the Danzou fight was MS Sasuke much stronger than Hebi Sasuke.

No, Sasuke did not have all of Oro's techs. That's an extreme exaggeration. He lost his ability to use white snake healing, snake specific summons, and his cursed seal.

He gained the second or third most powerful genjutsu and gained an unstoppable offensive power (the only way to prevent it from being a one hit kill is if you dodge it which requires Naruto KCM, A Amped mode, or Minato levels of speed).

You have to be a retard of a troll to think Sasuke came out of his fight with Itachi as being "weaker" than his old state.

You are also claiming that Sasuke could recover from what seems like permanenet wounds from Itachi.


As far as your last comment about Sasuke being much stronger by the time he fights Danzo, I would agree. However, the addition of only those two MS techniques, imo, made him stronger than he was before when he fought Itachi. I personally think the cursed seal held him back...and Itachi seemed to think so, as well. lol

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
If Samehada is capable of getting past Susano'o, then Bee would win. If it cannot, Sasuke would win IMO.


Well, really, if the fight started out with both knowing what they know now, B would just speed blitz Sasuke and one hit kill him. Sasuke would be best served putting up his Susaon'o immediately, imo.

From there, B can just play a war of attrition as he has much more chakra than Sasuke. B is fast enough to dodge amaterasu like A did, imo. I am willing to budge on that position but B seems to be in the top 5 when it comes to speed.

Has B's age ever been stated?

Originally posted by NemeBro
Has B's age ever been stated?

No, but he appeared to be a man 17 years ago. He was 17-22 back then, imo.


B is about at his prime, if not a bit towards waning.

I would have guessed late teens myself in the flashback, so yeah, your estimate sounds about right.

Originally posted by dadudemon
http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g386/psychogundam1/gifs/7ad4dfcd.gif

bruce lee > chuck norris

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/62150/1466632-chucknorrispokemon_super.jpg

the stats dont lie

neither does video:

2xYjYQkRuxY

oh BTW, checkmate

Originally posted by Damborgson
My like of Itachi has nothing to do with your flawed ABC logic.

It has everything to do with your inability to see the flaw in your logic and the completeness of my ABC logic.


Originally posted by Damborgson
Which is true despite you trying to steer away from what I said. I'm not claiming he's above 6 paths or Madara or something. But he's superior to Minato.

No, it's not true. Itachi is below Minato.


Originally posted by Damborgson
Yes he was. He went totally blind from one Tsukuyomi, one Amaterasu usage and activating Susanoo. Even before the actual fight started his vision of Sasuke was incredibly diminished.

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v42/c386/3.html

See?

No, you have proved my point, not yours. That's temporary. And it was also not "totally blind" as even when he was recovering for using Tsukyomi, he was not totally blind.

Originally posted by Damborgson
And yes he did extend the fight. From you're responses it seems like you hardly payed attention to it. Or the talk Tobi had with Sasuke later. Itachi extended the fight with Sasuke in order to exhausst him and remove Orochimaru from his body.

No he didn't extend the fight. From your assessment, you're blind to what actually too place. Itachi attacked with his best techs towards the very beginning (minus the sealing sword): Tsukyomi and amaterasu. This is hardly "trying to drag the fight out".


Already addressed the rest of what you talked about.


Originally posted by Damborgson
After Bee was hit with Amaterasu is when he decided to slip out. That doesnt change the fact that when Bee got hit, he retreated instead of continuing his assault on taka. Unless you think his plan was "I hope that sharingan kid uses those weird eyes of his to create some jutsu where I'm forced to hid inside the tentacles of Hachibi and pretend to attack the girl so the Sharingan kid slices the tentacle off and I can escape in it as they take the tentacle doppelganger I leave behind. That'd be awesome yo."- Bee

Yes, that was pretty much hist plan. His entire plan was to use Team Hawk as a distraction so he could escape his virtual bondage. He went as far as to create a clone, escape in the cut off section, and sit at the bottom of the lake until they were gone. A even recognized what B had done afterwards.

Originally posted by Damborgson
In the Narutoverse, powers comes almost always with age. (not old age of course) Name one case of a character that did not improve with it. Arguing against it is silly really.


In the Narutoverse, powers always wane with age because there is less speed and chakra to draw from.

There is a much better case to be made that an older Jiraiya has to go to level 2 amp to equal his old self at a level 1 amp. He considered those the same.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Lol? Thats cute but you gotta step your game up before you can say stuff like that.

lol, that's also cute. You think you're worthy to even talk down to me.

You've got thousands of posts and hundreds of arguments to go through before a pup like you can even contemplate talking down to me and being considered legit.

http://i.qkme.me/356h77.jpg

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
^ I did say that Minato would win this.

But yes, Itachi is definitely > Minato. awesome

Just saw this post. You sunuva.

Originally posted by Damborgson
http://i.qkme.me/356h77.jpg http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g386/psychogundam1/gifs/e32253b49cbabe22da7a06fdcebd7065b78557c.gif

Originally posted by dadudemon
It has everything to do with your inability to see the flaw in your logic and the completeness of my ABC logic.




No, it's not true. Itachi is below Minato.




No, you have proved my point, not yours. That's temporary. And it was also not "totally blind" as even when he was recovering for using Tsukyomi, he was not totally blind.



No he didn't extend the fight. From your assessment, you're blind to what actually too place. Itachi attacked with his best techs towards the very beginning (minus the sealing sword): Tsukyomi and amaterasu. This is hardly "trying to drag the fight out".


Already addressed the rest of what you talked about.




Yes, that was pretty much hist plan. His entire plan was to use Team Hawk as a distraction so he could escape his virtual bondage. He went as far as to create a clone, escape in the cut off section, and sit at the bottom of the lake until they were gone. A even recognized what B had done afterwards.




In the Narutoverse, powers always wane with age because there is less speed and chakra to draw from.

There is a much better case to be made that an older Jiraiya has to go to level 2 amp to equal his old self at a level 1 amp. He considered those the same.



lol, that's also cute. You think you're worthy to even talk down to me.

You've got thousands of posts and hundreds of arguments to go through before a pup like you can even contemplate talking down to me and being considered legit.




I sincerely hope you're kidding. ABC Logic is flawed in general. Even more so in the way you are using it.


In your wet dreams.


His vision was diminished. Even before the fight started. You're arguing against on panel evidence. Not usually a good idea.

And he went totally blind after he used that final susanoo against sasuke. I'm not talking about the tsukuyomi backlash.

Are you trying to say that Itachi was going all out in an attempt to kill Sasuke? Even though he planned the whole situation in order to remove Sasuke of his curse mark and have him be the hero who killed Itachi?

More like tried to and failed to address.


My God. http://images.killermovies.com/forums/customsmilies/facepalm2.gif

Feel free to prove that. was teen Kakashi > Current Kakashi? (Sharingan excluded) No. When reaching prime, character gain power. When they go past it it becomes a negative effect. This is common sense.



Take you're over inflated ego to someone who gives a damn. I posted the smiley to let you know that I was just having some fun. If you're going to get your panties in a bunch about it I won't kid around with you anymore. But acting all high and mighty (and being wrong at the same time) isn't exactly intimidating me or whatever you're going for.

edit: Wait were you just putting on a show? If so sorry for sounding harsh or dickish. If not, see above.

Originally posted by Damborgson
I sincerely hope you're kidding. ABC Logic is flawed in general. Even more so in the way you are using it.

ABC logic is not flawed in general and it is even more powerful in the way I am using.


Originally posted by Damborgson
In your wet dreams.

I don't have wet dreams: I hide the hotdog in the bun. I actually do not remember the last time I had a wet dream.


But, if you must contend this way: nuh uhhhh!

Originally posted by Damborgson
His vision was diminished. Even before the fight started. You're arguing against on panel evidence. Not usually a good idea.

His vision was not diminished: it worked just fine until he used tsukyomi and he temporarily got blurred vision. You're arguing against on panel evidence. Not a good idea. Also, taking dumps in your pants while in the middle of a lecture is not a good idea.

Originally posted by Damborgson
And he went totally blind after he used that final susanoo against sasuke. I'm not talking about the tsukuyomi backlash.

Prove it. Because he seemed to walk straight towards Sasuke. He even reaches out and touches Sasuke's forehead without missing (a person who has been blind for years may miss doing something like this...much less a person that has just lost all of their vision). Even the anime does not indicate in anyway that Itachi had lost his vision. I will concede this point if you have some sort of commentary from Kishimoto that indicates Itachi was completely blind at this point.



Originally posted by Damborgson
Are you trying to say that Itachi was going all out in an attempt to kill Sasuke? Even though he planned the whole situation in order to remove Sasuke of his curse mark and have him be the hero who killed Itachi?

I already addressed this point. Parroting another poster, while flattering to the original poster, is not the best way to discuss things.


Originally posted by Damborgson
More like tried to and failed to address.

Good one. So basically "nuh uhhhhh!". Here: more like addressed and destroyed.derpy dooooo!


Originally posted by Damborgson
My God.

Nuh uhhhh herpy derp!

Originally posted by Damborgson
Feel free to prove that. was teen Kakashi > Current Kakashi? (Sharingan excluded) No. When reaching prime, character gain power. When they go past it it becomes a negative effect. This is common sense.

It's cool and all that you are now parroting me, but this is delving into "just sad" territory. If you want to pretend, in the face of other statements I have made in this very thread, that my statement meant people become weaker as they age no matter their age, cool. Just don't expect me to take your posts seriously after this last reply of mine. You added nothing to the discussion and your replies consisted of already addressed points, "nuh uh" statements, and chest thumping. I posted on the internet like that when I was 14...but I didn't really.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Take you're over inflated ego to someone who gives a damn. I posted the smiley to let you know that I was just having some fun. If you're going to get your panties in a bunch about it I won't kid around with you anymore. But acting all high and mighty (and being wrong at the same time) isn't exactly intimidating me or whatever you're going for.

edit: Wait were you just putting on a show? If so sorry for sounding harsh or dickish. If not, see above.

You would probably have to know me better to know for sure...but it was quite obvious it was jest. Despite that, my ego is still quite huge. estahuh


:laugh;

Originally posted by dadudemon
ABC logic is not flawed in general and it is even more powerful in the way I am using.




I don't have wet dreams: I hide the hotdog in the bun. I actually do not remember the last time I had a wet dream.


But, if you must contend this way: nuh uhhhh!



His vision was not diminished: it worked just fine until he used tsukyomi and he temporarily got blurred vision. You're arguing against on panel evidence. Not a good idea. Also, taking dumps in your pants while in the middle of a lecture is not a good idea.



Prove it. Because he seemed to walk straight towards Sasuke. He even reaches out and touches Sasuke's forehead without missing (a person who has been blind for years may miss doing something like this...much less a person that has just lost all of their vision). Even the anime does not indicate in anyway that Itachi had lost his vision. I will concede this point if you have some sort of commentary from Kishimoto that indicates Itachi was completely blind at this point.





I already addressed this point. Parroting another poster, while flattering to the original poster, is not the best way to discuss things.




Good one. So basically "nuh uhhhhh!". Here: more like addressed and destroyed.derpy dooooo!




Nuh uhhhh herpy derp!



It's cool and all that you are now parroting me, but this is delving into "just sad" territory. If you want to pretend, in the face of other statements I have made in this very thread, that my statement meant people become weaker as they age no matter their age, cool. Just don't expect me to take your posts seriously after this last reply of mine. You added nothing to the discussion and your replies consisted of already addressed points, "nuh uh" statements, and chest thumping. I posted on the internet like that when I was 14...but I didn't really.



You would probably have to know me better to know for sure...but it was quite obvious it was jest. Despite that, my ego is still quite huge. estahuh


:laugh;

Yes it is. This is supposed to be basic debating Knowledge.

k.

Well thats blatant trolling. Do you usually see people all static like and blurry? If so thats not normal its a serious problem.

Lol k. Glad you tested that theory out. I personally never planned on it but at least now I know.


The anime is non canon so why would that matter?

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v43/c391/16.html

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v25/c223/10.html

Please tell me the differences you see in those eyes. I see a pair of healthy eyes and a pair of blind eyes.

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v43/c392/7.html

^ Here he says "I know this feeling. Orochimaru's Hydra technique." Their was a gian multi headed serpent infront of him and he was going by feelings. I'm sure his eyesight was fine.

Trolling

Trolling

(lol you mad) Trolling

Dude....you've failed to prove ANYTHING. Like literally anything on here. This argument was over when you had to resort to trolling (for fun or not) and emphasizing "I'm a veteran Manga debater. You sound like a little kid. I'm the adult here."


Sharing a view with someone isn't parroting. Trying to spin it into that doesnt work.


What more do I have to add when you've been proved wrong? Just keep pushing the point? You just repeat flawed and wrong arguments. So I mess around and respond to what I'm given. I'm not going to sit here and lecture further someone who closes their eyes shakes their head and stomps their foot. Whats wrong is wrong, and in this case at least, my argument isn't. Give me some good points like I gave you and I'll be glad to continue an actual debate.


Not really, I've been more than enough debates to know their are people full of themselves like that. (like myself from time to time haha) Glad to hear you were kidding though. ^_^

Originally posted by Damborgson
Yes it is. This is supposed to be basic debating Knowledge.

ABC logic is quite fundamental to logical structures: you're definitely wrong.

Originally posted by Damborgson
k.

Well thats blatant trolling. Do you usually see people all static like and blurry? If so thats not normal its a serious problem.

The part where you arguments constitute "nuh uhh" statemenst? Yeah, I guess you could call that trolling if you continue to do it, it could become blatant. Don't be so hard on yourself but I am glad you're letting me know, now, that you've just been trolling.


But, I am glad to see that you have conceded that point. You now amended your position from "completely blind" to what I had asserted. You didn't directly concede, but I will accept your concession on this point in that form if that's the only way you will provide it.
Originally posted by Damborgson
Lol k. Glad you tested that theory out. I personally never planned on it but at least now I know.

I have no idea to which statement this refers to. You'e getting out of sync because you do not know how to quote posts or sections of posts properly.

Originally posted by Damborgson
The anime is non canon so why would that matter?

Oh! You didn't know where you were? I'll be happy to help. This is the "Anime vs. Forum". Regardless, my actual reason for mentioning the Anime was to see if your theory had any water anywhere besides fan-fic. Even the anime does not confirm your baseless guessing.

Originally posted by Damborgson
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v43/c391/16.html

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v25/c223/10.html

Please tell me the differences you see in those eyes. I see a pair of healthy eyes and a pair of blind eyes.

What I see is a bunch of irrelevant scans to the problem. I told you I would be willing to concede that Itachi was blind but you have not provided anything but your own baseless speculation that goes against what we see (pun?) in the manga and anime.

Originally posted by Damborgson
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v43/c392/7.html

^ Here he says "I know this feeling. Orochimaru's Hydra technique." Their was a gian multi headed serpent infront of him and he was going by feelings. I'm sure his eyesight was fine.

That's a non sequitur conclusion. You do know that you're contradicted by...lesse...Hiruzen when Naruto was bringing out Kurama's chakra during his fight with Neji, right? Hiruzen wasn't blind. I also believe Jiraiya commented on feeling Kurama's chakra, too. So, no, your conclusion is still baseless and unsupported. You need something more concrete. Since I have viewed both primary sources (manga and anime), there is no support for your position. The only way you can get support is from a statement from Kishimoto, himself.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Trolling

Trolling

(lol you mad) Trolling

I have no idea what you're referring to, here. If you are referring to my "derp" comments, that's because you replied with nothing but "nuh uhh" or "derp" statements.


But, hahahahaahahah "u mad". hahahahaahaha. Oh man.

1234

Originally posted by Damborgson
Dude....you've failed to prove ANYTHING. Like literally anything on here. This argument was over when you had to resort to trolling (for fun or not) and emphasizing "I'm a veteran Manga debater. You sound like a little kid. I'm the adult here."

Except every position that I hold, of course. I never resorted to trolling. Your tactics have been "nuh uhh", parroting, and making non sequitur conclusions. I never once had to "resort" to trolling. And, no, I never said I was a "veteran manga debater". For one, I do not even consider this a debate. Secondly, you have no actual substance in your arguments. Lastly, you commit common logical fallacies.


Originally posted by Damborgson
Sharing a view with someone isn't parroting. Trying to spin it into that doesnt work.

Another "nuh uhhh" reply. Repeating the same argument as someone else after it has been addressed is parroting. This portion of your post is a dodge tactic.


Originally posted by Damborgson
What more do I have to add when you've been proved wrong?

You have yet to prove a single point, actually. (edit - retraction. That's not true. You tried to support your position that Itachi "feeling" Oro's chakra means he was blind. I destroyed that by showing you others that can feel chakra who are non-chakra sensors). Don't become delusional.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Just keep pushing the point?

Make sure you don't project: you are the one that keeps parroting arguments and bringing up the same points.

Originally posted by Damborgson
You just repeat flawed and wrong arguments.

Come now, don't parrot my complaints about what you're doing.

Originally posted by Damborgson
So I mess around and respond to what I'm given.

No, you respond with "nuh uh" posts making it impossible for any sort of normal dialogue to continue. You are given exactly what you give: a nuh uh reply. If you actually had something of substance to reply with, I could actually respond with something other than a silly "nuh uh".

Originally posted by Damborgson
I'm not going to sit here and lecture further someone who closes their eyes shakes their head and stomps their foot.

The only way that could occur is if you lectured yourself. By the way, that's the equivalent of a "no u".

Originally posted by Damborgson
Whats wrong is wrong, and in this case at least, my argument isn't.

Again, you're only responding with "nuh uh". That's not how you improve your position. You don't want to be lectured but you have tons to learn.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Give me some good points like I gave you and I'll be glad to continue an actual debate.

I have. Go back through the thread, find my arguments, and properly respond to them with something other than "nuh uhhh".

I literally cannot respond to a "nuh uhh" comment with anything more than..."k...uh huuhhh".


Originally posted by Damborgson
Not really, I've been more than enough debates to know their are people full of themselves like that. (like myself from time to time haha) Glad to hear you were kidding though. ^_^

Well, sure, I was joking. But I wasn't completely lying, either. You still have a long way to go.






Start off with a clean slate. Restate your arguments clearly and concisely. Then I will copy and paste my replies to those arguments. Then try to contradict those points with your own evidence and points withOUT using a "nuh uhh" comeback. Actually use substance. I am giving you information on how to have a conversation: if you do not take my advice, you won't get very far in any discussions, anywhere.

Originally posted by dadudemon
You did not correct me. You proved me right.

40-50 is not prime, anymore. That's waning. What I said. You're wrong. (I would put in estahuh, right here, but I think I ran out of space)

Depends on the person. A has not shown any signs of waning. He looks much stronger than ever, and if I use your 'feats' path, he was much stronger against Sasuke than he was against Minato. stoned

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, he stopped, he did not stalemate with B. It is made to look like a stalemate but it is only due to Minato calling it quits.

Wrong.

We don't know if Minato called it quits after attempting to take out Bee. We simply do not know what happened. Ergo, stalemate.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Wrong: based on A's very words, you have sick pwnage.

Wrong.

Based on chakra usage, you have sick pwnage.

stoned
Originally posted by dadudemon
My goal was for you to try and bring this up as a trump card...

Sasuke himself says Itachi tried to kill him multiple times. It does not matter if the overall goal was to draw forth Oro. Had Sasuke messed up, he would have died multiple times.

Additionally, the difference between an Itachi holding back and an Itachi going all out is the version of Itachi that is fighting Kabuto now. And thus, the trap your fell into.


Lastly, Itachi always had it in the plans to stop or even kill Sasuke if Sasuke turned against the village BEFORE he fought Sasuke:

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v58/c550/11.html

Game. Set. Match. 313


I guess you shouldn't rely on the lies of Tobi to set up your case, now should you? 313

Wrong.

Tobi clearly states that Itachi was not aiming to kill Sasuke, but to push him to the edge, and that Itachi was not aiming to win the fight. Tobi's words > Yours.

Appropriate of you to ignore the very next page where he states Naruto was the only one who could stop Sasuke and that his plan was to use Kotoamatsukami. http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v58/c550/12.html Whatever point you were making is nullified and irrelevant.

Game. Set. Match. 131

I guess you shouldn't rely on ignoring some events and warping others to set up your case, now should you? 131

Originally posted by dadudemon
This was a very dishonest attempt on your part. Not sure why you would try this:

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v42/c389/10.html

It's the residual effects of Tsukyomi that were already wearing off by the very next page.

Let's not try to pull something like this again.

a) Different translation, one I was not aware of. But fair enough, my apologies.

b) Itachi was still having vision problems. http://www.mangareader.net/93-391-3/naruto/chapter-386.html

Originally posted by dadudemon
I will concede this...however, you're committing a strawman.

There's a difference between what I said and Juugo stating that Itachi's wounds against Sasuke not healing: they won't heal. It is not something he can heal and this is what juugo is referring to. Scars? Permanent damage?

Wrong.

He states they 'did not heal'. That is taken to mean that the damage Itachi caused is still in the process of healing.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Wrong, he used two new ultra-powerful techs during his fight with B that he did not have before. You're trying to move that bar just to be right.

Deal with the fact that Sasuke had two new techs to bring to the fight and stop pretending Sasuke was weaker than he was.

Wrong, he used one new powerful tech during the fight with Bee that he did not have before. Amaterasu was unlocked right before the end so it does not count.

Deal with the fact that Sasuke had one new tech to bring to the fight and strop pretending Sasuke was stronger than he was.


Originally posted by dadudemon
Wrong: the strongest Sasuke has ever been (up to that point) was seen in this fight against B. Not only was Sasuke stronger in this fight than he was against Itachi, he got two healings to continue. Additionally, Sasuke used Amaterasu in a way Itachi was never seen using so in a way, he progressed further than Itachi by this point.

Wrong.

The strongest Sasuke has ever been (up to that point) was seen in this fight against Itachi. Not only was Sasuke stronger in this fight than he was against Bee, he never needed healings from someone else as he had the ability to regenerate.



Originally posted by dadudemon
Here's B touching Nagato:

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v58/c550/16.html


Additionally, every time they went to attack, speed from Nagato had nothing to do with it: he moved very little and did not have to react very much. The only thing Nagato did was react and move just a bit to catch both of them.

Here's Naruto's commentary on Nagato's level of mastery being much higher than before:

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v58/c551/9.html

Basically, Naruto and B are still much faster, physically, but Nagato does not have to move from his spot when they attack him.

Contrast this with Minato who is definitely not as dumb as Naruto.

Wrong.

Kindly point out where I said Nagato was faster than Bee and Naruto. When I said 'touch', I was being a dick, as I was very much aware of what happened when Bee used his Lariat and failed miserably.

Still irrelevant as those two could not stop Nagato.

Originally posted by dadudemon
ABC works wonderfully in this case and Itachi fanboys cannot stand it.



Itachi does not have the means to contend with Minato's precision, power, and variety of Minato.

ABC works pitifully in this case and Minato fanbois cannot stand it.

Itachi does have the means to contend with Minato's precision, power, and variety of Minato.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Minato makes an effort, but he is not pushed very hard.

He gets his shit pushed in like Sasuke did when facing Naruto at VotE, but still wins.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, Sasuke did not have all of Oro's techs. That's an extreme exaggeration. He lost his ability to use white snake healing, snake specific summons, and his cursed seal.

He gained the second or third most powerful genjutsu and gained an unstoppable offensive power (the only way to prevent it from being a one hit kill is if you dodge it which requires Naruto KCM, A Amped mode, or Minato levels of speed).

You have to be a retard of a troll to think Sasuke came out of his fight with Itachi as being "weaker" than his old state.

You are also claiming that Sasuke could recover from what seems like permanenet wounds from Itachi.


As far as your last comment about Sasuke being much stronger by the time he fights Danzo, I would agree. However, the addition of only those two MS techniques, imo, made him stronger than he was before when he fought Itachi. I personally think the cursed seal held him back...and Itachi seemed to think so, as well. lol

Fine, an exaggeration, as he did not show Rashomon gates or body manip. Every snake-related tech Oro showed was supposed to be in his arsenal though, as was regeneration and enhanced healing. Cursed Seal amped his physical stats and chakra levels.

No, Itachi's Tsukuyomi is the 'second or third most powerful genjutsu'. Sasuke's was proven to be pitifully weaker in comparison, but still pretty strong.
Gained Amaterasu at the end of the fight, otherwise, he would have attempted to spam it against Bee.

You have to be a retard of a troll to think Sasuke came out of his fight with Itachi as being stronger than his old state.

Yes, the damage he sustained against Itachi wasn't healed by the time he fought Bee.

No.
After his fight with Itachi, he lost two massive amps. He gained a weaker Tsukuyomi.
Amaterasu (which he unlocked at the end of his fight with Bee) made him nearly as strong as he was when he fought Itachi. He was still recovering when he fought Bee (a fact both the anime and the manga confirm), so it is 100% certain that he was weaker when he fought Bee.
Usage of an incomplete Susano'o and Enton manipulation made him stronger than he was when he fought Itachi.
Completing Susano'o and unlocking its Bow made him much stronger.

No the Cursed seal did not hold him back, it amped his stats and allowed him to push past his normal chakra limits. However, it was still dangerous to Sasuke, as shown in Part 1.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Well, really, if the fight started out with both knowing what they know now, B would just speed blitz Sasuke and one hit kill him. Sasuke would be best served putting up his Susaon'o immediately, imo.

From there, B can just play a war of attrition as he has much more chakra than Sasuke. B is fast enough to dodge amaterasu like A did, imo. I am willing to budge on that position but B seems to be in the top 5 when it comes to speed.

Bee is incapable of blitzing Sasuke, who can dodge him, as shown on panel. Sasuke would not bother entering a Taijutsu/Kenjutsu fight with Bee, as he knows he'd lose easily if he slipped up even once.

Base Mode Bee, nah. IMO, he needs to at least be in V2 form to dodge it, and even then it is iffy, as I don't remember his reflexes being on Minato's/A's level. What he could do is to use Samehada to absorb it, but that would hurt Samehada immensely.

If Sasuke uses Susano'o, which he would, then Bee's only hope is to use the full transformation (which can be owned by Amaterasu), or to hope Samehada can get past Susano'o.Originally posted by dadudemon
Just saw this post. You sunuva.

I am a Minato fanboy as well, but my boner for Itachi is bigger.
That said, it does not compare to your boner for Minato. estahuh


Anyway f*** this shit. I've already admitted Minato would win. Let this thread die.

^ Small edit: Minato would win for now. Need to see what Izanami can do. If it ends up being like Izanagi, except one that works on another instead of one's own self, then Itachi could win.

We need to wait for Damborgson's argument to see if this thread ends or not.

Originally posted by dadudemon
ABC logic is quite fundamental to logical structures: you're definitely wrong.



The part where you arguments constitute "nuh uhh" statemenst? Yeah, I guess you could call that trolling if you continue to do it, it could become blatant. Don't be so hard on yourself but I am glad you're letting me know, now, that you've just been trolling.


But, I am glad to see that you have conceded that point. You now amended your position from "completely blind" to what I had asserted. You didn't directly concede, but I will accept your concession on this point in that form if that's the only way you will provide it.


I have no idea to which statement this refers to. You'e getting out of sync because you do not know how to quote posts or sections of posts properly.



Oh! You didn't know where you were? I'll be happy to help. This is the "Anime vs. Forum". Regardless, my actual reason for mentioning the Anime was to see if your theory had any water anywhere besides fan-fic. Even the anime does not confirm your baseless guessing.



What I see is a bunch of irrelevant scans to the problem. I told you I would be willing to concede that Itachi was blind but you have not provided anything but your own baseless speculation that goes against what we see (pun?) in the manga and anime.



That's a non sequitur conclusion. You do know that you're contradicted by...lesse...Hiruzen when Naruto was bringing out Kurama's chakra during his fight with Neji, right? Hiruzen wasn't blind. I also believe Jiraiya commented on feeling Kurama's chakra, too. So, no, your conclusion is still baseless and unsupported. You need something more concrete. Since I have viewed both primary sources (manga and anime), there is no support for your position. The only way you can get support is from a statement from Kishimoto, himself.



I have no idea what you're referring to, here. If you are referring to my "derp" comments, that's because you replied with nothing but "nuh uhh" or "derp" statements.


But, hahahahaahahah "u mad". hahahahaahaha. Oh man.

1234



Except every position that I hold, of course. I never resorted to trolling. Your tactics have been "nuh uhh", parroting, and making non sequitur conclusions. I never once had to "resort" to trolling. And, no, I never said I was a "veteran manga debater". For one, I do not even consider this a debate. Secondly, you have no actual substance in your arguments. Lastly, you commit common logical fallacies.




Another "nuh uhhh" reply. Repeating the same argument as someone else after it has been addressed is parroting. This portion of your post is a dodge tactic.




You have yet to prove a single point, actually. (edit - retraction. That's not true. You tried to support your position that Itachi "feeling" Oro's chakra means he was blind. I destroyed that by showing you others that can feel chakra who are non-chakra sensors). Don't become delusional.



Make sure you don't project: you are the one that keeps parroting arguments and bringing up the same points.



Come now, don't parrot my complaints about what you're doing.



No, you respond with "nuh uh" posts making it impossible for any sort of normal dialogue to continue. You are given exactly what you give: a nuh uh reply. If you actually had something of substance to reply with, I could actually respond with something other than a silly "nuh uh".



The only way that could occur is if you lectured yourself. By the way, that's the equivalent of a "no u".



Again, you're only responding with "nuh uh". That's not how you improve your position. You don't want to be lectured but you have tons to learn.



I have. Go back through the thread, find my arguments, and properly respond to them with something other than "nuh uhhh".

I literally cannot respond to a "nuh uhh" comment with anything more than..."k...uh huuhhh".




Well, sure, I was joking. But I wasn't completely lying, either. You still have a long way to go.






Start off with a clean slate. Restate your arguments clearly and concisely. Then I will copy and paste my replies to those arguments. Then try to contradict those points with your own evidence and points withOUT using a "nuh uhh" comeback. Actually use substance. I am giving you information on how to have a conversation: if you do not take my advice, you won't get very far in any discussions, anywhere.


http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb41/bombbiggidyphil/t9d0nr.gif

Dealing with someone who doesn't even know the flaws in ABC logic is beneath me.

I seriously don't have the energy to do this for another 3 pages.You're posts are huge and most of the space is just nonesense. So i'm going to respond only to the important stuff and not the dribble and trolling. You asked for specific review by Kishimoto, so I gave you scans of Itachi's healthy eyes and his blind eyes. Kishimoto wrote that if you didn't notice. Itachi was completely blind by the end of the fight. And you give me examples of non blind people sensing chakra? It's not like the snakes were far off from him. They were right there. Why say I sense when he could see? I give you on panel evidence that his vision was diminished before the fight and you respond with "No they weren't". Despite it being on panel. Tsk.


You preach a lot, but you havent shown anything that would make me believe you're anything worth spending this much time on. If you want a troll battle we might as well take it to PM's.

Otherwise express how you think Minato would win. Because quite hilariously, all these posts of yours have revolved around nope Itachi would lose with zero evidence.

I already said how Itachi would win. I don't remeber anyone being able to counter it.


So start debating on how Minato would win, or concede. You already lost but might as well give it a good show no?

So Minato fights a blind person, I dont see difficulty in there.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Bee is incapable of blitzing Sasuke, who can dodge him, as shown on panel.

I am willing to concede that point, actually. However, I don't know what you're talking about. I don't remember that ever happening.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Sasuke would not bother entering a Taijutsu/Kenjutsu fight with Bee, as he knows he'd lose easily if he slipped up even once.

I agree.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Base Mode Bee, nah. IMO, he needs to at least be in V2 form to dodge it, and even then it is iffy, as I don't remember his reflexes being on Minato's/A's level. What he could do is to use Samehada to absorb it, but that would hurt Samehada immensely.

Really? He seemed so fast that not even Sasuke could keep track of him. However, I am using both implied "speed" in the manga (because you can't get an actual speed measure with just pictures unless someone does a count down like Naruto did with Deva Path). B virtually teleported away from the fight. His body flicker ability seems to put Sasuke's to shame (as Sasuke even has a precog eyeball advantage in tracking movements of people).

I do not think Samehada is a good choice. It does not seem like Preta Path: it seems to absorb chakra, but not ninjutsu/chakra elements. For instance, B was able to cut Itachi's great ball of fire in half with Samehada. If it was more like Preta Path, it would have absorbed it.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
If Sasuke uses Susano'o, which he would, then Bee's only hope is to use the full transformation (which can be owned by Amaterasu), or to hope Samehada can get past Susano'o.

I think B is more than strong enough to bust up Susano'o in just his base form, alone. His base form is stronger than V2 raikage. No telling how strong his beast cloak form makes him if you consider how much stronger it makes Naruto.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
I am a Minato fanboy as well, but my boner for Itachi is bigger.
That said, it does not compare to your boner for Minato. estahuh

I KNEW IT!


Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Anyway f*** this shit. I've already admitted Minato would win. Let this thread die.

K. We talked about stuff other than the thread, so we both did just that: let the thread die.




Originally posted by ichigo12
So Minato fights a blind person, I dont see difficulty in there.

That was going to be my argument, as well, but I figure it was too low to stoop. Itachi can see just fine. I don't want to gimp him.




Originally posted by Damborgson
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb41/bombbiggidyphil/t9d0nr.gif

Dealing with someone who doesn't even know the flaws in ABC logic is beneath me.

I seriously don't have the energy to do this for another 3 pages.You're posts are huge and most of the space is just nonesense. So i'm going to respond only to the important stuff and not the dribble and trolling. You asked for specific review by Kishimoto, so I gave you scans of Itachi's healthy eyes and his blind eyes. Kishimoto wrote that if you didn't notice. Itachi was completely blind by the end of the fight. And you give me examples of non blind people sensing chakra? It's not like the snakes were far off from him. They were right there. Why say I sense when he could see? I give you on panel evidence that his vision was diminished before the fight and you respond with "No they weren't". Despite it being on panel. Tsk.


You preach a lot, but you havent shown anything that would make me believe you're anything worth spending this much time on. If you want a troll battle we might as well take it to PM's.

Otherwise express how you think Minato would win. Because quite hilariously, all these posts of yours have revolved around nope Itachi would lose with zero evidence.

I already said how Itachi would win. I don't remeber anyone being able to counter it.


So start debating on how Minato would win, or concede. You already lost but might as well give it a good show no?

Someone how is not aware that the extreme majority of logical structures are ABC logic is definitely not up to par. Pretty much all logical structures are extensions of "a > b" or "b > a". ABC logic is just a simplistic extension of that basic logical structure. This extends from not only logic (not Vulcan type, but basic logic logic) but into philosophy, computing, discrete math, and so forth. So for someone to claim that ABC logic is flawed and hardly ever usable, I can rest assured that that person has no idea what they are talking about.


My posts are not the only thing huge. 313 In order, Itachi never once showed blind eyes even in the vision. You already conceded that point. You have no proof or even implied proof that Itachi was blind by the end of his fight. Your only proof was the fact that Itachi said he could feel Oro's chakra. I destroyed your evidence by showing where people who could see could also feel chakra. Meaning, your conclusion is non sequitur (a logical fallacy, by the way). Why say that he could feel Oro's chakra? Because Oro was not apparant in the Hydra form, initially. Itachi recognized Oro as being the hydra beast: case closed. And, no, it wasn't on panel that Itachi was completely blind. Again, that's baseless speculation on your part.

I am just trying to help you better discuss topics. You have plenty of room to improve. You'll understand, one day, I promise. You'll look back and realize all the fallacies you committed and say that I was right. You don't have to admit that to me, of course, but you will realize it. Well, you could also never realize it and forever wallow in a poor discussion based posting style. That would be sad, of course. And, no, we do not need to go to PMs. You can troll me via PM, if you want, though. I have no objection to friendly trolling in PMs.

I already expressed how Minato would win.

You did and were soundly defeated.

I already did. Nice try.





Well, that was interesting. Maybe my posts are so long because I type so fast?

Originally posted by dadudemon
I am willing to concede that point, actually. However, I don't know what you're talking about. I don't remember that ever happening.

Bee tried Lariat'ing him with his Bijuu cloak on, but Sasuke dodged him in mid-air. Awesome feat really.
When Bee did Lariat him, Sasuke's Sharingan was turned off, and he was caught off-guard as well.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I agree.

Damn right you do. Smartest move you've made all day. stoned

Originally posted by dadudemon
Really? He seemed so fast that not even Sasuke could keep track of him. However, I am using both implied "speed" in the manga (because you can't get an actual speed measure with just pictures unless someone does a count down like Naruto did with Deva Path). B virtually teleported away from the fight. His body flicker ability seems to put Sasuke's to shame (as Sasuke even has a precog eyeball advantage in tracking movements of people).

I do not think Samehada is a good choice. It does not seem like Preta Path: it seems to absorb chakra, but not ninjutsu/chakra elements. For instance, B was able to cut Itachi's great ball of fire in half with Samehada. If it was more like Preta Path, it would have absorbed it.

Sasuke could keep track of him, because Bee moves in straight lines. The whole reason A was able to blitz Sasuke is because A went around Sasuke, and Sasuke's head was too slow to follow him.

Arguments for both sides are present. I personally don't know if it can absorb Susano'o, but seeing as Susano'o is a chakra construct, I think it should be able to.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I think B is more than strong enough to bust up Susano'o in just his base form, alone. His base form is stronger than V2 raikage. No telling how strong his beast cloak form makes him if you consider how much stronger it makes Naruto.

I thought you wrote that incident off as PIS?

Anyway, V2 Bee's only feats are Lariat'ing Nagato (and failing), and this. Even though Samehada absorbed some of Bee's chakra, it didn't happen until after Bee had already made contact. It's damn strong, but doesn't strike as being able to get past a completed Susano'o with a shield.

Originally posted by dadudemon
K. We talked about stuff other than the thread, so we both did just that: let the thread die.

You wanna make a new Bee vs. Current Sasuke thread to carry on this discussion, or move it to the Naruto Discussion thread?


Originally posted by ichigo12
So Minato fights a blind person, I dont see difficulty in there.

Except you put him at full-power already. If you're going to make a vs. thread involving two relatively equal combatants, don't handicap one of them. >__>

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Depends on the person. A has not shown any signs of waning. He looks much stronger than ever, and if I use your 'feats' path, he was much stronger against Sasuke than he was against Minato.

He does not look much stronger than ever. He is looking older. He also had to go V2 to create his "fastest punch" whereas, in the past, he was only V1.



Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Wrong.

We don't know if Minato called it quits after attempting to take out Bee. We simply do not know what happened. Ergo, stalemate.

Wrong: Minato did call it quits because he stopped moving whereas, before, he was all over the place. Ergo, not a stalemate but Minato willingly giving up.



Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Wrong.

Based on chakra usage, you have sick pwnage.

Already addressed this in my opening statement.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Wrong.

Tobi clearly states that Itachi was not aiming to kill Sasuke, but to push him to the edge, and that Itachi was not aiming to win the fight. Tobi's words > Yours.

Appropriate of you to ignore the very next page where he states Naruto was the only one who could stop Sasuke and that his plan was to use Kotoamatsukami. http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v58/c550/12.html Whatever point you were making is nullified and irrelevant.

Game. Set. Match. 131

I guess you shouldn't rely on ignoring some events and warping others to set up your case, now should you? 131

You do realize that you ignored my actual point, right? You did not actually address what I said. You just restated what you had said, previously. And then you made a non-sequitur point about Naruto being the only one to stop Sasuke: that's because Itachi is dead (et body) and Shinsui's tech was already activated in Itachi preventing him from using it



Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
a) Different translation, one I was not aware of. But fair enough, my apologies.

b) Itachi was still having vision problems. http://www.mangareader.net/93-391-3/naruto/chapter-386.html

A) awesome. See, adults can argue like adults from time to time. Meow.

b) IMO, that simply the genjutsu ending. The anime agrees with my interpretation, as well. However, I am willing to concede this point because it does not diminish my position: Itachi had just gotten done using a ton of genjutsu with Sasuke.



Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Wrong.

He states they 'did not heal'. That is taken to mean that the damage Itachi caused is still in the process of healing.

No, that quite clearly states that the wounds literally did not heal. Some did, some didn't. Even really bad wounds can start to heal in a few hours. I take Sasuke's fight against B to have taken place a few days after his fight with Itachi. No way Sasuke fought with all of his wounds still in place. So we can conclude 1 or two things: Sasuke cannot heal some of the wounds given to him by Itachi: permanent damage/scaring. Sasuke needs special medical ninjutsu to heal those wounds. Regardless of the outcome, it does not look like Sasuke can heal those wounds. It does not mean that Sasuke did not heal. Scarring or permanent damage does not diminish your point or mine: it just means Sasuke could not heal some things.

On top of that, Sasuke was restored twice in that fight and Jugo's comment comes after the fight. Tells me those wounds can't be healed. However, Sasuke was more powerful in that fight than against Itachi, imo. He brought two new techs and was more sure of himself. He also got to be healed twice.



Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Wrong, he used one new powerful tech during the fight with Bee that he did not have before. Amaterasu was unlocked right before the end so it does not count.

Deal with the fact that Sasuke had one new tech to bring to the fight and strop pretending Sasuke was stronger than he was.

Wrong: he used two new powerful techs that he had not used before. Amaterasu was used in that fight, period, so it counts as having been used in the fight (that point is so tautological that it doesn't even make sense that you're arguing against it).




Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Wrong.

The strongest Sasuke has ever been (up to that point) was seen in this fight against Itachi. Not only was Sasuke stronger in this fight than he was against Bee, he never needed healings from someone else as he had the ability to regenerate.

Wrong: the strongest Sasuke has ever been (up to that fight) has been against B. Not only did Sasuke appear to be more physically spry with taijutsu than he was against Itachi, he also brought two now super power techs to the fight that he had not used before. He also was healed twice during his fight with B. And healing eats up chakra so it can be seen as a detriment to he person in the long run if they do not have a plan. Sasuke using his two team mates to heal up is actually a better idea: he gets new chakra and he doesn't use up his own healing with white snake ability. Using the white snake ability is a double-edged sword and part of the reason why Kabuto is so potent, now: he can replenish his chakra with his sage mode.





Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Wrong.

Kindly point out where I said Nagato was faster than Bee and Naruto. When I said 'touch', I was being a dick, as I was very much aware of what happened when Bee used his Lariat and failed miserably.

Still irrelevant as those two could not stop Nagato.

Kindly point out where I said you said Nagato was faster than B and Naruto. Bad path to take.

And since you said "touch" but now admit to being a dick about it, cool. But that's weird. Were you aware that Nagato got a lariat? Yeah, Nagato was not very fast, at all. He just couldn't get smacked down due to Preta and Deva path pretty much making him invincible. Really, imo, the only way to be able to defeat that version of Pain was to seal him with the sword. I don't think there is really a way to defeat Madara, imo.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
ABC works pitifully in this case and Minato fanbois cannot stand it.

Itachi does have the means to contend with Minato's precision, power, and variety of Minato.

ABC logic works wonderfully in this cause and Itachi fanbois cannot stand it. Itachi does not have the means to contend with Minato's precision, power and variety.



Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
He gets his shit pushed in like Sasuke did when facing Naruto at VotE, but still wins.

Minato makes an effort, but he is not pushed very hard.



Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Fine, an exaggeration, as he did not show Rashomon gates or body manip. Every snake-related tech Oro showed was supposed to be in his arsenal though, as was regeneration and enhanced healing. Cursed Seal amped his physical stats and chakra levels.

Not every snake related tech, either. It was never stated that Sasuke got all of Oro's snake techs. Kabuto, on the other hand, might...but again, he may not have all of Oro's specific snake techs related. The cursed seal also corrodes the person's will and allows Oro to slowly take over. This is what happened against Itachi and one of the reasons Itachi was using deadly techs against his brother the entire time. So the cursed seal is not all it's cracked up to be. Getting rid of the cursed seal was actually a good idea, overall, for Sasuke. Again, Itachi agrees with me.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
No, Itachi's Tsukuyomi is the 'second or third most powerful genjutsu'. Sasuke's was proven to be pitifully weaker in comparison, but still pretty strong.
Gained Amaterasu at the end of the fight, otherwise, he would have attempted to spam it against Bee.

No, Sasuke's was not pitifully weaker. He just lacks the ability to slow down time with it. It is still an extremely powerful technique that

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v44/c411/18.html

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
You have to be a retard of a troll to think Sasuke came out of his fight with Itachi as being stronger than his old state.

You have to be a retard of a troll to think Sasuke came out of his fight with Itachi as being "weaker" than his old state.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Yes, the damage he sustained against Itachi wasn't healed by the time he fought Bee.

But it did not seem to affect Sasuke's mobility. Like I said, Sasuke was doing more acrobatics in his fight against B than against Itachi. Also, the "chakra amp" the cursed seal gave him is negated by the fact that Sasuke got healed twice (and given chakra during the process). Karin fainted because of how much chakra was taken and she is an Uzumaki. Suigetsu shrank in size due to how much chakra was taken and Suigetsu is on the beastlier side of chakra stores.

The only damage I could think of that would impact his fight would be a lower-chakra reserve or something. But that was negated by two other replacement abilities via his team-mates. I would say that his team-mates abilities to help Sasuke heal are superior to white snake because white snake uses up your own chakra. So, again, Sasuke entered his fight against B in a superior position than against Itachi.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
No.
After his fight with Itachi, he lost two massive amps. He gained a weaker Tsukuyomi.

No, after his fight with Itachi, he got a parasitic amp removed that would have eventually destroyed him (making it a double edged sword and nigh-useless if he hadn't had it removed because he would have changed into Oro against B and we would have had an entirely different outcome.) But your point does not diminish mine: Sasuke gained the ability to heal himself and get a chakra injection from his two teammates and he considered them pawns to him based on his conversation with Karin. You also ignore the fact that I said Sasuke got two monster powers.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Amaterasu (which he unlocked at the end of his fight with Bee) made him nearly as strong as he was when he fought Itachi. He was still recovering when he fought Bee (a fact both the anime and the manga confirm), so it is 100% certain that he was weaker when he fought Bee.

It is 100% confirmed that Sasuke had no healed from some of the wounds Itachi gave him in the fight, yes...but we do not know to what extend those wounds debilitated him since Sasuke was more physically rowdy than he was against Itachi.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Usage of an incomplete Susano'o and Enton manipulation made him stronger than he was when he fought Itachi.
Completing Susano'o and unlocking its Bow made him much stronger.

I disagree: Sasuke was definitely stronger, overall, against B than he was against Itachi.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
No the Cursed seal did not hold him back, it amped his stats and allowed him to push past his normal chakra limits. However, it was still dangerous to Sasuke, as shown in Part 1.

No, the cursed seal did hold Sasuke back for if he used it too much, eventually, Oro would take over his body. That's a very bad thing. It certainly does allow one to push their chakra limits but at an extreme cost. It also does not seem to offer much of a chakra boost but has a great risk attached to it. I like Sasuke's newer tactic of bring in two people that could not only heal him (white snake replacement) but also replace his chakra that he expends (cursed seal replacement but much more chakra can be given).

Originally posted by dadudemon







Someone how is not aware that the extreme majority of logical structures are ABC logic is definitely not up to par. Pretty much all logical structures are extensions of "a > b" or "b > a". ABC logic is just a simplistic extension of that basic logical structure. This extends from not only logic (not Vulcan type, but basic logic logic) but into philosophy, computing, discrete math, and so forth. So for someone to claim that ABC logic is flawed and hardly ever usable, I can rest assured that that person has no idea what they are talking about.


My posts are not the only thing huge. 313 In order, Itachi never once showed blind eyes even in the vision. You already conceded that point. You have no proof or even implied proof that Itachi was blind by the end of his fight. Your only proof was the fact that Itachi said he could feel Oro's chakra. I destroyed your evidence by showing where people who could see could also feel chakra. Meaning, your conclusion is non sequitur (a logical fallacy, by the way). Why say that he could feel Oro's chakra? Because Oro was not apparant in the Hydra form, initially. Itachi recognized Oro as being the hydra beast: case closed. And, no, it wasn't on panel that Itachi was completely blind. Again, that's baseless speculation on your part.

I am just trying to help you better discuss topics. You have plenty of room to improve. You'll understand, one day, I promise. You'll look back and realize all the fallacies you committed and say that I was right. You don't have to admit that to me, of course, but you will realize it. Well, you could also never realize it and forever wallow in a poor discussion based posting style. That would be sad, of course. And, no, we do not need to go to PMs. You can troll me via PM, if you want, though. I have no objection to friendly trolling in PMs.

I already expressed how Minato would win.

You did and were soundly defeated.

I already did. Nice try.





Well, that was interesting. Maybe my posts are so long because I type so fast?

In the case of high level Shinobi, Such as Minato, Itachi, B etc, we can't use the argument of A beats B and B beats C then A must also beat C. Example: If Itachi beats Minato with Tsukuyomi, that does not mean he beats B. Why? Because Hacchibi will wake him up and break the genjutsu. Yet Minato is capable of taking down B, quicker and more effectively than Itachi.

To many factors to account for for that type of logic to work. Why is that so hard for you to understand? Because you tried to make a point with it found it was flawed and are trying to hold onto it for your prides sake? Its what it seems like to me.


Where did I concede that point lol? I already posted the proof that you have been unable to counter. (Well you did try to counter but it didn't really prove anything)

My proof is right on panel. Just looking at his eyes is enough. Those are blind eyes lol. Those are what blind eyes look like. You saw in the scan that I posted that his eye-sight was diminished while talking to Sasuke yes? He was already seeing static and blurry. It got worse from the backlash of Tsukuyomi but he recovered from that. Amaterasu and Susanoo is what took care of the rest of his vision.

No because they were sensing Kyubi chakra am I right? The kyubi and they had no current illness of the eyes lol. Its about as far off from proving anything as it gets.

Its not baselss when I already provided the proof.



Try using terms when they fit the situation. Not just to sound smart.




Thanks lol? You have your hands full as it is. I don't think Im doing to bad. If ever I start thinking different or that I'm wrong for some reason, you'll be the first person I contact.


Yet you were wrong and I proved it.


Yes by Psycho Gundam. Once. I suppose Bruce Lee > Chuck Norris at the moment.

But I was most certainly not defeated by you or Ichigo. Not even close.

Here is how the fight would go in my opinion:

They faceoff, Minato throws his makred Kunai, Itachi counters it and with that motion, he's cast a minor genjutsu on Minato. It'll take Minato a second to figure out he's in it and another to break it. When he releases, he's staring straight into the mangekyo. Tsukuyomi. Game over.

Come at me bro.


Probably. I just let off a long post myself. (lol)

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Bee tried Lariat'ing him with his Bijuu cloak on, but Sasuke dodged him in mid-air. Awesome feat really.
When Bee did Lariat him, Sasuke's Sharingan was turned off, and he was caught off-guard as well.

I am reading the fight, now. I'll let you know if I find it and then concede if appropriate.



Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Damn right you do. Smartest move you've made all day. stoned

But ...but...you're just confirming my previous supposition that Sasuke would got to instant Susano'o.



Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Sasuke could keep track of him, because Bee moves in straight lines. The whole reason A was able to blitz Sasuke is because A went around Sasuke, and Sasuke's head was too slow to follow him.

AHA! Makes more sense. So why doesn't B do that? Well, it's because B can just confuse the Sharingan with his swords technique.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Arguments for both sides are present. I personally don't know if it can absorb Susano'o, but seeing as Susano'o is a chakra construct, I think it should be able to.

I don't know if it is pure chakra, though. Samehada seems to be able to absorb pure chakra, but not stuff made from chakra like Preta Path. I don't want to give Samehada a feat/ability it does not have until I know for sure.



Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
I thought you wrote that incident off as PIS?

It is. But we are stuck with the logical inconsistancy of such a feat. The only way I can justify it is that A is as fast as his old V1 form because A is getting old (meaning, V1 fastest punch in the past was as fast as V2's fastest punch now).


Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Anyway, V2 Bee's only feats are Lariat'ing Nagato (and failing), and this. Even though Samehada absorbed some of Bee's chakra, it didn't happen until after Bee had already made contact. It's damn strong, but doesn't strike as being able to get past a completed Susano'o with a shield.

He did succeed, however. And Nagato did not have time to react to anything B was doing (such as using the various paths to catch B like he did later on). This, for me, shows that B is indeed stupid fast.

It does strike me as being able to easily get passed Susano'o. A is really strong. Tsunade is seen as stronger than A. Not "much stronger", just stronger. B is also stronger than A's V2 form, when B is in base form. So two amps later and I would think that B is around Tsuande's strength. Yes, 400 tonne "class" or more.


Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
You wanna make a new Bee vs. Current Sasuke thread to carry on this discussion, or move it to the Naruto Discussion thread?

Nah. I am relatively satisfied with what we have discussed. My argument boils down to, "Sasuke will be speed blitzed as soon as the fight starts and it is over."

If Sasuke gets Sasuno'o up before B makes contact, B will lose.


I think if Sasuke gets to start in Susano'o form and B gets to start in full biju mode (both in full power states), B loses for the reason you outlined: amaterasu to a much bigger target.

Originally posted by Damborgson
In the case of high level Shinobi, Such as Minato, Itachi, B etc, we can't use the argument of A beats B and B beats C then A must also beat C. Example: If Itachi beats Minato with Tsukuyomi, that does not mean he beats B. Why? Because Hacchibi will wake him up and break the genjutsu. Yet Minato is capable of taking down B, quicker and more effectively than Itachi.

So I got you to concede that ABC logic is not rarely right? Awesome. Well, this is a start for you. In Minato's case, he just happens to be so fast and so versitile in what he can do that ABC logic works perfectly fine. It is only your desperate attempt at saving your favorite character in a fight that prolongs your pain. Here's the problem with your complaint against the ABC logic: Itachi would not get off a genjutsu like that against Minato. Remember, Minato found a sharingan user, before and he was hokage. There's no way he could not know of eye-specific genjutsu when it seemed quite obvious that it was common knowledge amoung jonin when Itachi and Kisame visited Konoha in part 1. Gai had even trained his taijutsu to fight, specifically, against a sharingan because taijutsu has an obvious weakness against an eye technique: don't meet eyes (gaaaaaaaay). So, basically, your what if scenario used to destroy the validity of the ABC logic is irrelevant. You can make up any what if scenario I want, but the what if scenario needs to be relevant.

Originally posted by Damborgson
To many factors to account for for that type of logic to work. Why is that so hard for you to understand? Because you tried to make a point with it found it was flawed and are trying to hold onto it for your prides sake? Its what it seems like to me.

No, there are not too many factors in play for it to work. They are all controlled for since they fought each other (you know what i mean, here). Sure, someone may have a technique that the other is particularly weak against, but we already know how the elemental weaknesses thing pans out. That's not a problem for Minato because the Rasengan is not an elemental jutsu: it is pure shape manip and one of the reasons it is such a good "pure" jutsu. Why is that so hard for you to comprehend? Actually, it's not. You know I am right. But you fight against it because your character loses. And that last part of your post is more chest beating and puffing.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Where did I concede that point lol? I already posted the proof that you have been unable to counter. (Well you did try to counter but it didn't really prove anything)

Go back and read the arguments to see where I pointed out, originally, where you conceded this.


Originally posted by Damborgson
My proof is right on panel. Just looking at his eyes is enough. Those are blind eyes lol. Those are what blind eyes look like. You saw in the scan that I posted that his eye-sight was diminished while talking to Sasuke yes? He was already seeing static and blurry. It got worse from the backlash of Tsukuyomi but he recovered from that. Amaterasu and Susanoo is what took care of the rest of his vision.

That is not proof. Here's why: sasuke also had bloody eyes at multiple points during the manga. He was not blind. Your proof is destroyed, yet again. For me, that was obvious. But you persisted so I had to embarrass you. Sorry about that.

So, again, I ask you...provide your proof. Where is it? You have none, so far. I have already destroyed your supposed "proof" from multiple angles. The only proof you can provide, at this point, is a statement from Kishimoto. There is none.

So what do we have left? You are wrong. You made a baseless claim and I called you on it. Deal with it and move on.

Originally posted by Damborgson
No because they were sensing Kyubi chakra am I right? The kyubi and they had no current illness of the eyes lol. Its about as far off from proving anything as it gets.

You're incorrect. You used "sensing chakra" as your proof that Itachi had lost his eyesight. I provided at least two examples of where 'seeing' people, who were not chakra sensors, could feel chakra as well. I did not prove anything: I disproved your support for Itachi being blind. Your point has been destroyed, yet again. Deal with it and move on.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Its not baselss when I already provided the proof.



Try using terms when they fit the situation. Not just to sound smart.



No, it's baseless because your "proof" was not proof since it easily is contradicted with another example. So it becomes "null" as proof. So you are left with a blank drawing board and are still making a baselessly speculative claim. And, lol, you think using the word "baseless" makes people sound smart. hahahaha


Originally posted by Damborgson
Thanks lol? You have your hands full as it is. I don't think Im doing to bad. If ever I start thinking different or that I'm wrong for some reason, you'll be the first person I contact.

No, my proverbial hands are not full, at all. You're doing quite horribly, actually. The reason you don't think you're doing bad is your delusions of "debating prowess". And, no, do not contact me to tell me I'm right: I already know I am right and do not need my ego stroked to make me feel better.


Originally posted by Damborgson
Yet you were wrong and I proved it.

Another "nuh uhhh" reply? Really? Okay, well, then...No you, were wrong and I showed you where your supposed proof was useless.


Originally posted by Damborgson
Yes by Psycho Gundam. Once. I suppose Bruce Lee > Chuck Norris at the moment.

But I was most certainly not defeated by you or Ichigo. Not even close.

See, this is why you fail. I pointed out when you made clear logical fallacies, where you did not actual have "proof", and responded with childish "nuh uhh" statements. But you think that's how you "win a debate". We aren't even having a debate.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Here is how the fight would go in my opinion:

They faceoff, Minato throws his makred Kunai, Itachi counters it and with that motion, he's cast a minor genjutsu on Minato. It'll take Minato a second to figure out he's in it and another to break it. When he releases, he's staring straight into the mangekyo. Tsukuyomi. Game over.

Here are your problems with your hilariously gimped scenario:

1. You ignore the fact that Minato would throw a myriad of marked Kunai and Itachi would only be able to block just of a few of them.

2. Minato has the opportunity to throw a Kunai and port to it as it is still flying through the air. Itachi will not be able to do anthing about it if the kunai is out of his line of site: his sharingan becomes useless.

3. Genjutsu would most likely not work on Minato since he's a hokage and is intimately familiar with the Uchiha clan. Tobi didn't use it against Minato...nor did anyone from lightning when he fought them.




Originally posted by Damborgson
Come at me bro.

I did. And I just destroyed your pretend scenario.

Try again. But this time, don't pitifully gimp/ignore how smart and potent Minato is on a 1 v 1 fight.


Originally posted by Damborgson
Probably. I just let off a long post myself. (lol)


Cool story, bro.

Way to waste your time buddy. I'm not reading to through all that. Jesus Christ.


A quick skim brings up more trying to push already debunked strategies and attempts at proving me wrong. Which aren't even new and were already countered and addressed anyway. such as the ABC logic you keep trying to force even if you know you're wrong. Getting kinda sad really...

That little bit at the end is interesting though. I'm glad someone finally gets to a counter to my situation.

Minato getting to throw a barrage of Kunai's would still be ineffective. Itachi isn't know for his lack of mastery of Kunai's, and his genjutsu would still be cast as he threw the weapons. He was able to keep Sasuke in extended Genjutsu for a long period of time. To a non sharingan user, it would be easier. Minato teleports to the deflected Kunai and slices Itachi's throat. Only to see he's attacked a crow bunshin. He breaks the genjutsu and looks straight at the Mangekyo. Game over.

Come at me bro

So you (not you dadudemon, you Damborgson) are saying that Minato will get caught so easily in a genjustu? I think not.

why? Minato can avoid his eyes I know. I'm not talking about sharingan. His index finer wouldo just fine. And then comes Mangekyo. Which is above anything Tobi or another non Mangeko users can produce.

I think Itachi would be using his fingers to use his kunai and avoid Minato's.

He fight and perform genjutsu at the same time...

I'd like to go on about ABC logic a bit more if I could.

A beating B and B beating C =/= A beating C because of who beat who.

If A beats C its because A is superior to C already. Not because beating B gives the auto win.

Thats common sense no?

So A=Minato B=Itachi and C=Kakashi for example, dont?

No because Minato wouldn't beat Itachi. At least not more than Itachi would beat him.

Regardless Minato wouldn't get the instant win over Kakashin for beating Itachi. He'd get the win because he's Kakashi's superior.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Way to waste your time buddy. I'm not reading to through all that. Jesus Christ.

I am not Him.


Originally posted by Damborgson
A quick skim brings up more trying to push already debunked strategies and attempts at proving me wrong. Which aren't even new and were already countered and addressed anyway. such as the ABC logic you keep trying to force even if you know you're wrong. Getting kinda sad really...


This comes down to another "nuh uhhh" and a forced "I'm right". All of your points were destroyed. You did not counter anything. You brought nothing new, as well. And you parroted my "you're sad" point, as well.

Originally posted by Damborgson
That little bit at the end is interesting though. I'm glad someone finally gets to a counter to my situation.

So you did read it. Interesting. Guess you were just being dramatic? Figures.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Minato getting to throw a barrage of Kunai's would still be ineffective.

It was effective against an entire platoon of lightning ninjas: two of which were extremely fast ninjas with one of them literally being the second fastest ninja alive.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Itachi isn't know for his lack of mastery of Kunai's, and his genjutsu would still be cast as he threw the weapons.

And his Genjutsu would not work because he would not know where Minato is. If Itachi tries to counter the Kunai, he ends up dead. He should immediately throw up Susano'o to avoid the instant kill that Minato will deliver if Itachi deviates.

Originally posted by Damborgson
He was able to keep Sasuke in extended Genjutsu for a long period of time.

Which won't happen because it requires eye contact.

Originally posted by Damborgson
To a non sharingan user, it would be easier.

To a hokage, it is the most difficult thing to pull off. This is why no one has used a genjutsu against a hokage from what we have seen. From what we know, a Hokage has tremendous chakra control and vast amounts of knowledge of ninja arts. It would be stupid to assume even Tsunade would fall for a genjutsu or fail to dispell it, much less a true genius like Minato.


Originally posted by Damborgson
Minato teleports to the deflected Kunai and slices Itachi's throat.

Yes, this is what happens unless Itachi puts up Susano'o.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Only to see he's attacked a crow bunshin. He breaks the genjutsu and looks straight at the Mangekyo. Game over.

Come at me bro

Did. You are having a delusional fantasy about Itachi, obviously.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I am not Him.





This comes down to another "nuh uhhh" and a forced "I'm right". All of your points were destroyed. You did not counter anything. You brought nothing new, as well. And you parroted my "you're sad" point, as well.



So you did read it. Interesting. Guess you were just being dramatic? Figures.



It was effective against an entire platoon of lightning ninjas: two of which were extremely fast ninjas with one of them literally being the second fastest ninja alive.



And his Genjutsu would not work because he would not know where Minato is. If Itachi tries to counter the Kunai, he ends up dead. He should immediately throw up Susano'o to avoid the instant kill that Minato will deliver if Itachi deviates.



Which won't happen because it requires eye contact.



To a hokage, it is the most difficult thing to pull off. This is why no one has used a genjutsu against a hokage from what we have seen. From what we know, a Hokage has tremendous chakra control and vast amounts of knowledge of ninja arts. It would be stupid to assume even Tsunade would fall for a genjutsu or fail to dispell it, much less a true genius like Minato.




Yes, this is what happens unless Itachi puts up Susano'o.



Did. You are having a delusional fantasy about Itachi, obviously.


No way?


Yes "nuhUh" "parroting" I've heard it before and you're still wrong and proven wrong. Sorry but I don't remember every little detail about you enormous posts. :/ Pretending I'm parroting because I said that you're sad and you may have said it somewhere in your arguments is just that....sad.

I had already said I skimmed it? This isn't new information lol. The numbers caught my eye.

Yet all of them inferior to Itachi. (not in speed of course) Just like they are to Minato. And Itachi isn't slow by any means himself. His reaction time is incredible. (Able to pop susanoo faster than lightning and all that)

Why would he be dead by countering the Kunai? if they are deflected Itachi has time to react to his coming. Worst case scenerio is that Minato gets in too close and Itachi pops Susanoo. Knocking Minato back leaving him exposed to a glance from Amaterasu.

And after the basic genjutsu eye contact would most certainly happen.

Assuming this was some rank amateur Ninja then yeah you'd be right. But it isn't. It's Itachi. One of the most powerful genjutsu wielders in the series. Orochimaru isn't known for his genjutsu. Neither were the aspects of Pain. Thats probably why they didn't use genjutsu. They are more for the direct approach.

Go ahead and quote where I said he'd fail to dispel it. But against an elite foe at his level, its not hard to see him being momentarily caught. And when I say momentarily I mean momentarily. He'd figure it out quick and dispel it quicker, but thats all the time Itachi needs to end it. Which he would.

Not at all. I'm not to prideful to say Itachi without Mangekyo is disposed of very quickly by Minato. But the Mangekyo puts him above him. A perfect defense/offense if needed and the most powrful genjutsu on the planet to end it quciker. Not because Minato is weak, but because I see Itachi either destroying his mind or Minato slicing his throat more so than them busting out the exotic jutsu. But if it comes down to them giving it all, Itachi will take it also more than vice versa.It's all in my posts. Despite you disagreeing.

Feel free when you're ready to come at me bro

Originally posted by Damborgson
No way?

lol, u mad. So don't call me Jesus Christ.


Originally posted by Damborgson
Yes "nuhUh" "parroting" I've heard it before and you're still wrong and proven wrong. Sorry but I don't remember every little detail about you enormous posts. :/ Pretending I'm parroting because I said that you're sad and you may have said it somewhere in your arguments is just that....sad.

Your entire long drawn out and sad response amounts to more parroting of my comments and "nuh uhh" statements. Change your game up a bit.

Originally posted by Damborgson
I had already said I skimmed it? This isn't new information lol. The numbers caught my eye.

Cool story, bro.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Yet all of them inferior to Itachi. (not in speed of course) Just like they are to Minato. And Itachi isn't slow by any means himself. His reaction time is incredible. (Able to pop susanoo faster than lightning and all that)

I would not say that A is/was inferior to Itachi's peak human form. He had the perfect counters to the sharingan and no genjutsu worked on him via Sasuke (Sasuke didn't even try). Itachi's reaction time is certainly great, but it is not on level with A, B, Naruto in cloaked form, and Minato.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Why would he be dead by countering the Kunai? if they are deflected Itachi has time to react to his coming. Worst case scenerio is that Minato gets in too close and Itachi pops Susanoo. Knocking Minato back leaving him exposed to a glance from Amaterasu.


Because he would be focusing his effort on countering the kunai (it would take both hands and most of his concentration just to prevent himself from getting hit). Minato is a master at doing multiple things at the same time: only Kabuto can boast greater ability in that department.

Also, you're confusing Itachi for Sasuke: Itachi cannot envelop his Susnao'o with amaterasu. Itachi would also be wise not to use Susano'o around Minato because Minato has chakra sealing capabilities: that would neuter his Susano'o.

Originally posted by Damborgson
And after the basic genjutsu eye contact would most certainly happen.

No, at this point, Itachi would already be dead. It would not progress after the initial clash. The only hope Itachi has against Minato is immediately putting up Susano'o.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Assuming this was some rank amateur Ninja then yeah you'd be right. But it isn't. It's Itachi. One of the most powerful genjutsu wielders in the series. Orochimaru isn't known for his genjutsu. Neither were the aspects of Pain. Thats probably why they didn't use genjutsu. They are more for the direct approach.

Orochimaru is definitely know for his genjutsu. He is/was among the most proficient users of genjutsu in the entire verse. His genjutsu rank is a 5 in the stat book, as well.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Go ahead and quote where I said he'd fail to dispel it. But against an elite foe at his level, its not hard to see him being momentarily caught. And when I say momentarily I mean momentarily. He'd figure it out quick and dispel it quicker, but thats all the time Itachi needs to end it. Which he would.

Go ahead and quote where I said you said he'd fail to dispel it. Against two elite opponents, Minato stalemated. Against one elite opponent that is superior to Itachi in most ways and could not be touched, Minato won. Your logic is flawed by invoking "elite opponent". And like I have indicated, Minato would kill Itachi before he had time to react/move unless Itachi put up his Susano'o as his first move.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Not at all. I'm not to prideful to say Itachi without Mangekyo is disposed of very quickly by Minato.

The things that the MS give Itachi are not enough to stop Minato because of Minato's sealing abilities. Itachi lacks the ability to manip amaterasu like Sasuke: this puts Itachi at a disadvantage to Minato's ability to easily counter Itachi's precog on his sharingan just like Raikage did against Sasuke.

Originally posted by Damborgson
But the Mangekyo puts him above him.

I agree that the MS puts Itachi above Minato is offensive power. However, this is 1v1 and the ability to destroy the most land area in the shortest amount of time does not necessarily mean a victory in a 1v1. In this case, it would be to Itachi's detriment to try and pull out big techs.

Originally posted by Damborgson
A perfect defense/offense if needed and the most powrful genjutsu on the planet to end it quciker. Not because Minato is weak, but because I see Itachi either destroying his mind or Minato slicing his throat more so than them busting out the exotic jutsu. But if it comes down to them giving it all, Itachi will take it also more than vice versa.It's all in my posts. Despite you disagreeing.


No, the most powerful genjutsu can be argued. It could be the sound based genjutsu because you only have to hear it and you're ****ed. Whereas, you can just close your eyes for the others. The rest is more incorrect claims on your part.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Feel free when you're ready to come at me bro

I did.

You did not come at me, bro. You brought more trash with wild over-exaggerations of Itachi's abilities.



I am very tempted at this point to stop responding to you. You bring nothing of substance to the discussion and you are wanking all over Itachi.



Here, here's my version of what you're doing:

As soon as the fight starts, Itachi tries to use Tsukuyomi to end the fight instantly. However, because it takes a bit to use that version of the genjutsu, by the time it's activated, Minato has long disappeared from Itachi's sight and is being butt-humped by Minato. Minato cuts Itachi's head off before Itachi has time to turn around and see Minato.



Except, with me, my above scenario actually COULD happen.



Here's another scenario for you. Itachi does the same thing he always does when the fight starts: monologues. Since Minato is not a monologuer, he goes straight for the kill and destroys a defenseless Itachi.


Here's another scenario for you: Itachi actually uses his head and pulls out Susuano'o right at the beginning of the match. When Minato ends up behind Itachi, because it is inevitable that Minato will end up there due to how much faster he is than Itachi and Itachi lacks the ability to track Minato, Minato will strike the bones of Susano'o as Itachi continues to build his Susano'o. As Susano'o nears completion, Itachi realizes that he cannot do anything with Susano'o. He then notices that a chakra seal was placed on Susano'o so Itachi dispels Susano'o and then dies as soon as it goes down.


Here's another scenario for you: Itachi starts the fight by backing up so Minato's typical 'behind the back one hit kill' tactic does not work. This thwarts Minato's initial strike and keeps Minato in Itachi's field of vision. Immediately, Minato throws a bunch of marked Kunai at Itachi and Itachi blocks some preventing any from hitting his person. Three kunai had explosive tags and Itachi notices and jumps away in the only safe direction possible while simultaneously activating Susano'o (because Itachi is smart enough to know that where ever he moves, Minato will be right there to kill him, instantly). As soon as Itachi jumps, sure enough, Minato brings in the killing move. That fails but in Minato's left hand is a rasengan and he sends Itachi flying, even in his Susano'o form. Minato disappears and Itachi is left holding up Susano'o because he cannot detect where Minato is. Itachi uses amaterasu to create a massive ring of fire around himself so Minato cannot sneak up on him and seal him or his chakra. Itachi holds Susano'o in place for 5 minutes and begins to tire. Eventually, Itachi collapses from exhaustion and Minato magically appears from above (via a thrown Kunai) to deliver the killing blow.


That last one was Itachi's best case scenario.

Other scenario is:
Imediately Minato throws like 6 kunais and makes a Rasengan, Itachi counters 3 and while he trys to get rid of them, Minato teleports to one and hit Itachi with Rasengan, and if that did not kill Itachi, Minato cuts his neck. All of that in 5 second (maybe 6 ).