What's wrong with X-Men: The Last Stand?

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C-3POTheClever
I've heard that loads of people don't like XMTLS, but I don't understand why, because it's really good. What is it about XMTLS that you don't like if you don't like it?

Bouboumaster
It's sucked ass.

Also, it was an insult to the continuity of the comics

the ninjak
They killed of the holy trinity of the Xmen in one film. Xavier, Jean and Scott. Totally disrespectful.

Ingonyama
To be more specific,

My problems with X-Men: The Last Stand come from reading the X-Men comics, and watching the 90s TV show, since I was 11 years old.

The Dark Phoenix Saga, which X-3 was supposedly based on, was largely a Cyclops and Jean Grey-centric story, about the corruption power untempered by good judgment can bring. It had been led up to for years, was well-told and well-drawn, and had an impact on the characters that is still felt today, over 32 years after the original issues were released.

In short, it's iconic.

X-Men 3 tried to integrate that story arc into about a dozen others at the same time, and as such the story that almost everyone who knows X-Men knows about became just another thread in a massively overstuffed tapestry.

The original Dark Phoenix Saga, once you strip away the extraneous space stuff, was about the threat Jean Grey posed when the power of Phoenix went to her head, and the struggle and conflict Cyclops felt while leading the team against the woman he loved. Wolverine not only didn't play as big a part in the original story, but had not one, but two chances to kill her and end the threat. But because of his own love for Jean, he couldn't bring himself to pull the trigger any more than Cyclops could.

As a result, the only person who could stop Dark Phoenix was Jean herself, through a noble act of self-sacrifice that ended the threat and saved the universe, but broke the hearts of the X-Men and the man she loved.

This is the story I wanted to see in The Last Stand. Instead, we had Cyclops and Professor Xavier, the two people who were most crucial in getting through to Jean enough for her to make that sacrifice, killed before the movie's halfway done. And Wolverine, who's gotten more than enough screen time already, became the Big Hero who led the team to victory, despite that being the role that Storm should have taken in the absence of the team's most capable leaders.

Fans of the characters of Storm, Cyclops, and Jean Grey, who were looking forward to seeing them finally step up to the plate after two movies spent as little more than window dressing for "the Wolverine show," got slapped in the face by this.

Throw in the "Mutant Cure" storyline and Magneto's mutant rebellion, both of which might have made good movies on their own given enough space and attention, and you had a confused mess with too much going on in addition to the unnecessary changes made to the theme of a classic story.

Even the Cure storyline felt messed-up. Rogue's arc was a fail of monumental proportions, since her whole raison d'etre is learning to be a happy, healthy person despite her powers. If mutants are a metaphor for oppressed minorities, then shouldn't the moral be about learning to live with your differences, rather than taking a cheap, contrived cure so you can be just like everyone else? What kind of message does that send people who can't change who they are in real life?

If you don't know or care about the comics' or characters' history outside the movies, I suppose this stuff doesn't matter. But I did care, and so I was aggravated to see what had been done. Obviously mileages may vary, but this was my experience.

X-Men 3 is one of my least favorite movies of all time, and I haven't watched another movie in the franchise since then.

celestialbodies
You know it's funny when I first saw X-men: The Last Stand I loved it, it was great but the more I thought about it the more I realized was I loved the movie but not as an X-men Movie. X1 and X2 was building to this big revelation.

Then X3 kinda went in a different direction yes it made alot of money but as far as even being an homage to the comics it wasn't. Where was the turmoil, strength, love, and ultimate sacriface. This movie became Wolverine's movie just as the last two had become he was shoehorned into a role in X3 that wasn't his to play.

This movie was very contrived they say he loved Jean but how they spent almost no time together and yet he loves her. Simply put this should of been Prof. X, Cyclops, and Phoenix as the stars of this not mere pieces to a puzzle composed of Wolverine.

Cyclops more then the others needed to finally stepup in this film and his role was instead given to Wolverine, so much was wrong, the idea that Jean would allow Phoenix to kill Scott or Xavier and yet spare Logan a man she hardly knows is a tough pill to swallow.

C-3POTheClever
Originally posted by celestialbodies
The the idea that Jean would allow Phoenix to kill Scott or Xavier and yet spare Logan a man she hardly knows is a tough pill to swallow. he tried to kill him too though didn't she? But just just couldn't coz he kept healing hemself.

celestialbodies
Originally posted by C-3POTheClever
he tried to kill him too though didn't she? But just just couldn't coz he kept healing hemself.

Very true however the likelihood that Wolvie would mean anything to Jean compared to Cyke or Prof.X, that he would even be able to talk her down is stretching suspended belief a bit too much. Besides you'll notice she held back she hit him with one blast at a time which he healed then hit him again when she could of easily just flung him away or kept on him.

Honestly I like the idea of Wolverine/Phoenix over Cyclops/Phoenix however Wolverine had two movies essentially starring him and this one shouldn't of been about him.

Ingonyama
Originally posted by celestialbodies
Honestly I like the idea of Wolverine/Phoenix over Cyclops/Phoenix however Wolverine had two movies essentially starring him and this one shouldn't of been about him.

I grew up loving Scott and Jean as a couple, but then I identified more with the nice-guy, isolated, put-upon nerd than I did Logan, who in the 90s felt like an archetypal, trash-talking bully. Didn't help that everyone I talked to fricking loved the guy.

Over time, I saw more of Scott's issues and flaws and more of Logan's rebellion and nobility, in large part thanks to Claremont. But the movies, for all that they overfocused on Wolverine, didn't really have that. And as a result I didn't see any chemistry between Jean Grey and the Logan on screen, even with as sexy as Hugh Jackman is.

the ninjak
Originally posted by C-3POTheClever
he tried to kill him too though didn't she? But just just couldn't coz he kept healing hemself.

No she didn't try to kill Wolverine she held back! It was obvious she still held wild feelings for Logan. She simply wanted him to stay back so she burnt chunks of him. She turned Xavier into dust!!!!!!!

She could've done the same to the flesh on Logan's Adamantium bones.
Logan persuaded Jean to stop her madness. And Jean allowed Logan to kill her.

In the comics only Logan was able to get through to Dark Phoenix. And I guess the movie showed that as well/

jewellalw
Good thinking..http://gbielin.info/g.gif

C-3POTheClever
Originally posted by the ninjak
No she didn't try to kill Wolverine she held back! It was obvious she still held wild feelings for Logan. She simply wanted him to stay back so she burnt chunks of him. She turned Xavier into dust!!!!!!!

She could've done the same to the flesh on Logan's Adamantium bones.
Logan persuaded Jean to stop her madness. And Jean allowed Logan to kill her.

In the comics only Logan was able to get through to Dark Phoenix. And I guess the movie showed that as well/
OK... I guess you win. I now have a better understanding of why people don't like it. I personally still like it, but I get it that some of the stuff is kind of ridiciolous (sorry about the bad spelling).

the ninjak
Originally posted by C-3POTheClever
OK... I guess you win. I now have a better understanding of why people don't like it. I personally still like it, but I get it that some of the stuff is kind of ridiciolous (sorry about the bad spelling).

No probs kid you said nothing wrong. The film was still entertaining, it just killed everybody and had little to show for it.

Sixth_Winged
I bought the x-men movie collection (1-wolverinembarrasmentrigins) just a month ago and watched the number 3 again. I found oddly found it good despite the fact that they killed my favorite character offscreen *wink*. Couple of years back, i'd get riled up just mentioning x-men 3 but now that most people cbf hating it anymore, i can't anymore too.

Ingonyama
Originally posted by the ninjak

In the comics only Logan was able to get through to Dark Phoenix. And I guess the movie showed that as well/

Actually, in the comics it was Scott who got through to Jean when she was Dark Phoenix.

Jean told Logan to kill her when she wrested control of herself from the Phoenix thanks to a device Beast invented that scrambled her neurons. After Logan couldn't do it, Jean froze him and the other X-Men in place telekinetically and held them there until Scott showed up and talked her down, using the fact that he knew her, and his love for her, to appeal to Jean Grey.

It almost worked, too, until Professor Xavier psi-blasted her from behind and he and Jean sealed the Phoenix away inside her own mind.

Logan's big story arc in the comics was his inability to kill someone he loved. I thought it was one of his best, and the movie even got that part wrong.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Bouboumaster
It's sucked ass.

Also, it was an insult to the continuity of the comics

The other two movies did the exact same thing.

Darth Jello
If you heard David Hayter's original treatment for X-Men 3 before Brett Ratner, you would hate Last Stand too.

NemeBro
Juggernaut was a douche in it.

mikeh123
I suppose this stuff doesn't matter. But I did care, and so I was aggravated to see what had been done. Obviously mileages may vary, but this was my experience.http://www.infoocean.info/avatar4.jpg

Kazenji
Originally posted by Darth Jello
If you heard David Hayter's original treatment for X-Men 3 before Brett Ratner, you would hate Last Stand too.

Pretty sure he does.

KingD19
They squandered opportunities in it as well.

You've got Colossus and Juggernaut, ready to go at it and destroy an entire neighborhood. But you have him fight Wolverine instead?

the ninjak
Originally posted by Darth Jello
If you heard David Hayter's original treatment for X-Men 3 before Brett Ratner, you would hate Last Stand too.

The Guyver wrote the original screenplay? Sweet if it happened.

Ridley_Prime
Originally posted by -Pr-
The other two movies did the exact same thing.
At least they were remotely good though and had arguably decent enough characterization for nearly all the major characters presented (unlike Last Stand), but First Class is probably the best one thus far for not coming down to being a Hugh Jackman wankfest.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
At least they were remotely good though and had arguably decent enough characterization for nearly all the major characters presented (unlike Last Stand), but First Class is probably the best one thus far for not coming down to being a Hugh Jackman wankfest.

Have to disagree to an extent. Cyclops was an abomination, as was the love triangle between him, Jean and Logan. Storm was iffy too, imo.

Honestly, the first movie showed promise, but the second, as well as it was made, just really disappointed me; the only good things (imo) being Stewart, McKellan, Cummings, and Kelly Hu in that catsuit.

Ingonyama
My problem isn't even with Jackman; his Logan's really good, if a little more "squeaky-clean" than I'm used to. I prefer a little more torment in Wolverine and a little less "good example." But most of that is less to do with Jackman and more with the writers wanting him to look good.

KingD19
Originally posted by Ingonyama
My problem isn't even with Jackman; his Logan's really good, if a little more "squeaky-clean" than I'm used to. I prefer a little more torment in Wolverine and a little less "good example." But most of that is less to do with Jackman and more with the writers wanting him to look good.

Nobodies saying he didn't play a good Wolverine.

We're saying that he was essentially shoved down our throats. X1, X2, and X3 should have all been called Wolverine Chronicles.

Kazenji
X2 made more sense with Wolverine alot more it with them finding out the old Weapon X place.

KCJ506
It suffered for a couple of reasons

Studio Interference. After Singer went to go do Superman Returns Fox decided to rush production to have it out by Summer 2006. They didn't even have a director until weeks before filming was to begin. And when a director is finally on board, it's Brett Ratner who had grown a reputation for being a hack, douchbag, MTV music video, action director. They also didn't wanna wait for several actors to take care of prior engagements before filming.(Marsden, Romijn, and Paquin) As a result several characters were either "killed off" or had very little screentime.

It also suffered by having so many characters and not even being 2 hours. Angel was also a character that wasn't on screen very much.

juggerman
I cant believe the HORRIBLE Juggernaut they had the nerve to display! They used the "Juggernaut *****" joke but clearly they didnt watch the video since he was so damn tiny! Granted he was bigger than everyone else but come on!

KingD19
Well Vinny Jones is a tiny guy. They didn't use CGI, just a muscle suit so they couldn't make him too huge.

NemeBro
I wouldn't call 6'2" "tiny".

RE: Blaxican
I would.

I'm approaching 6'5. : D

NemeBro
And yet you're still a cowardly black man with the physical capability of a kitten. That's been run over. And injected with AIDS.

KingD19
I didn't mean height. He's not a "large" man. And I'm 6'1. 6'2's not that tall.

NemeBro
It's over four inches taller than average American height.

Though yeah, he made a pitiful Juggernaut.

Bouboumaster
Originally posted by -Pr-
The other two movies did the exact same thing.

Yep, but I didn't care "that" much. Because the movies were actually ok, or good.
I'm not a fan of Cyclops, but I recognise him as a central piece of the team.

I accepted that he was only shown "on the side", because, well, Wolverine sell more, and the team was already established, so, it wasn't "that" important to show him on the front stage. But even so, he was the one leading the X-Men team in the final battle, and his presence showed him in a good light.
Xavier and Magneto were awesome. Creed, on the other hand, sucked ass, but hey, they can't give a good treatment to everyone, I guess.

I loved the second movie, with the exception of Cyclops taken away right of the bat. The movie debut was The Shit, with Nightcrawler making his way into the White House. The story was good. Nothing bad to say about it.

The third movie, OMG. They ****in' killed Cyclops in the oppening sequence, then, lated, killed Charles Xaver. Wtf.
Also, wtf happened to the Juggernaut's background story? This series need a reboot as bad as the Four Fantastic series needs a reboot (don't get me started on this) because they scrapped it. Marvel should take care of the Marvel movies. They have to stop selling the series.

Seriously, only the Blade Trilogy have been constantly decent, if you forgot some details of the third opus.

KingD19
All the new Marvel movies have been good. Hulk, Iron Man 1 & 2, Captain America, Thor. And Avengers is going to be awesome.

Bouboumaster
Originally posted by KingD19
All the new Marvel movies have been good. Hulk, Iron Man 1 & 2, Captain America, Thor. And Avengers is going to be awesome.

Hell yeah.

Ingonyama
Originally posted by KingD19
All the new Marvel movies have been good. Hulk, Iron Man 1 & 2, Captain America, Thor. And Avengers is going to be awesome.

As someone who's been an X-Men fan for as long as I have, I'm actually jealous of how good these other movies have been. Even the Fantastic Four movies used the characters to their fullest extent.

Why do all Marvel's other characters get all the best writing, the best effects, while we X-Men fans get such comparatively lackluster efforts?

89thwarrior
Originally posted by Ingonyama
As someone who's been an X-Men fan for as long as I have, I'm actually jealous of how good these other movies have been. Even the Fantastic Four movies used the characters to their fullest extent.

Why do all Marvel's other characters get all the best writing, the best effects, while we X-Men fans get such comparatively lackluster efforts?


I just wonder why viewers like us are not heard. Fans like us should be recognized with what our thoughts are with movies like X-Men. The writers should know that we are very concern of the facts and reliability of the characters' origins and their credibility. The only X-Men movie I like is X-Men 2 that is more likely closer to the realm of X-Men universe. They should care about us because we are the ones who are making them rich.

KingD19
I think it's safe to say the the X-men movies would have been great if not for FOX.

NemeBro
Originally posted by Bouboumaster
Also, wtf happened to the Juggernaut's background story? To be fair, implementing Cytorrak into the movies would have been really hamfisted and ****ing weird, since the X-Men movies were separate from the main Marvel movie continuity.

Kazenji
And also they're owned by FOX its their universe.

Darth Jello
For those who didn't see my post in another thread, David "Solid Snake" Hayter, the guy who cowrote the other two X-Men movies was on the Bagged and Boarded podcast and talked about the original plot of X-Men 3. Basically, as foreshadowed in X-Men 1 and 2, the Phoenix would've been a result of Jean's exposure to Magneto's radiation at Ellis Island in the first movie. She comes back and sees that the government has passed something akin to the Mutant Registration Act on steroids. Antimutant violence is at astronomical levels and the government has started rounding up mutants into labor and extermination camps. She goes Dark Phoenix in response, with full flaming bird and everything and pretty much lays waist to everything in her path. The climax was supposed to be at in DC with her basically melting the mall and and vaporizing the entire US military. The scene with Wolverine still happens like at the end of Last Stand but instead of stabbing her, Wolverine is tossed aside like a rag doll.

NemeBro
After Wolverine is tossed aside, I can only assume David Hayter in his sexy Solid Snake jumpsuit would then fight and best Phoenix in combat using superior h2h capabilities, before slitting her throat?

osimmons
I did not like this incarnation of the phoenix.
Bryan Singer (The director of the first 2 films) gave a perfect set up for the third film. ( The bird figure in the water at the end of the second film). It had everyone ready for THE PHOENIX that we are most familiar with. Then this "Brett Ratner" comes and pretty much scraps Brian Singer's blue print. I was very disappointed.


The good news is that Brian Singer has returned so that we may forget the atrocity that is "X-MEN: THE LAST STAND". It was honestly one of the worst conclusions to a trilogy I've ever seen.

-Pr-
You used Bryan Singer in a positive light. Sorry, no dice.

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Soundgun99
Well, the ending really sucked. Cyclops' death couldn't have been less ceremonious. He may as well not even been in the movie.

Really the whole second half of the movie seemed tacked on.
Poor writing and execution. If you're going to finish the trilogy, such as it was, it should have gone out with a real bang instead of falling with a thud.

Originally posted by C-3POTheClever
I've heard that loads of people don't like XMTLS, but I don't understand why, because it's really good. What is it about XMTLS that you don't like if you don't like it?

heathjack
I read some were they had were if brain signer did x-men 3 that they would kill magneto in x-men last stand. in not sure if its true or not.

DARTH POWER
Killing off 3 off the main and original X-Men just to have Wolverine save the day- is exactly what was wrong with this movie. A sad end to a whole trilogy that gave none of the X-Men (except Wolverine) the kind of role they deserved.

Terrible movie. Bad trilogy.

And btw I like Hugh Jackman and his Wolverine portrayal. Just don't like the way they made him the sole star of the entire trilogy.

continlawyer1
Yead, 'Darth Jello' said right

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